as there are a number of fellow here talking about bond...
I start a new thread here for sharing and learning...
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as there are a number of fellow here talking about bond...
I start a new thread here for sharing and learning...
The Housing and Development Board ("HDB") has launched two new issuances of Notes under its S$12 billion Multicurrency Medium Term Note ("MTN") Programme.
http://www.hdb.gov.sg/fi10/fi10296p....C?OpenDocument
How to create something out of nothing.
First make them work and save, take their money and build houses give 80% a share of the housing.
Move the housing price higher, give them chance to upgrade.(leverage)
Start selling piece of paper call bond. (take the money back)
Chey, for one moment thought TS refering to this instead...
http://mi6007.com/wp-content/uploads...nal-poster.jpg
ts is a very serious and savvy investor cannot joke joke wan...:D...i was thinking to post this picture but u beat me to it...so u are leftfield and i should be rightfield:scared-1::DQuote:
Originally Posted by leftfield
hang around a bit longer u will know who are the clowns i am one of them...:D...u might also bump into one or two gays...:scared-1::D...some nice sisters...;)...some story tellers...:doh:...the list goes on..enjoy ur stay...Quote:
Originally Posted by leftfield
@leftfield
The only bond I know is James Bond :o .
I also wanted to post a picture of James Bond, but as bro radha said cannot joke one.
Scared get scolding from TS :ashamed1: .
http://i47.tinypic.com/whi738.png
These are my bonds but leverage under 5%..
Dare not leverage.. but if dare leverage.. i think i huat big big.
But just to share.. I've attended a recent pte bank presentation on how to leverage on bonds..
and I asked 2 questions :-
1) When i asked the speaker about leverage 50-80%(as shown in his examples) and if 2009 happens again, what will happen? 2 oldies in the audience sniggered and says "sure die one"... and the speaker was non-commital and says it's better to be conservative.
2) when i asked the speaker about the leverage % as conservative, he says 20%.
So food for thought. Financial instruments really cannot leverage too much. For properties, its' as long as you service your installments, no one will bother you..
Ooops
min $3,250,000 is your worth
Why die? What is the worst case senario? NAV drop? So NAV drop, bank ask for top up? Or bond kaput?
Did you get your answer? I ask because this is open ended.
During 2009, my notes which I purchased before that performed well. I sold because it was safer to maintain cash. I also converted my smart mortgage to loan.
Quote:
Originally Posted by focus
Thanks for the warm welcome! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by radha08
Haha, I newbie so can get away from nonsense for a start. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by buttercarp
Oops, realised that there is indeed a very serious discussion going on, I shall make myself scarce! Apologies for the OT!
lol.. that's the bonds only in the portfolio mah and you can assumed it's all 250k each. but it can be more or less. But definitely more than $3.25mil. I think we already talked about it. So you just keep to yourself :) Don't reveal loh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laguna
hmm.. i think 2009, got people who have their term facility recalled and need to top up. During 2009, I attended a mtg, a old man complained to the speakers that they promised them the sky and now he lose money and that is his retirement money.. As usual , speakers just assured him it's temporary and must hold for long term view.. But sometimes, retirement money is very hard to use long term to justify. But a lot of bankers always tell you think long term. Nobody talk about cashflow.Quote:
Originally Posted by chestnut
Ok, bad to worse case :-
1) Interest rate rise and your spread is narrowed which means you are receiving less than planned cashflow. Interest rate rise also caused the value of your bonds to go down and if you sell, it will be at a loss. So you can only hold onto the bonds till maturity. If say you get a 5yr bond at 5% yield and on the 3rd yr, the interst rise to 3%, you spread narrow to 2%. If you have depended on that calaculation to live off your passive income, you might have to recalculate and sell some bonds to cover your expenses(assuming again if you have only 3yrs living expenses covered from start of yr 0).
2) If crisis do happen again and Capland convertible was a perfect example, you lent at 50% LTV for the bonds at par but crisis, capland could be had for 60% par, and bank also want you to top up. You have to sell your bonds if you have no money to top up. That was the panic. No panic, bank also will not ask for top up ah. But properties, they dare not touch.. too illiquid to ask you to sell and pay them back.
3) Your bonds is one of those highly levered companies paying above market yield. It goes kaput or maybe restructuring which may be write off part or total value of the bonds, or offered a lower yielding bond in exchange for the higher yielding bond. Your loan interest is still there and your lower value yield ..again.. compromise your cashflow.
Anyway, i am speaking from a point of retiree needing cashflow. If you are working and playing for capital gains.. totally different.. :)
I am a noob too.. and too conservative.. So, i would love to learn more about bonds leverage form those more experienced like yourself :) Do share more.
yaya. promised promised..u also don't talk about me!!! deal done...Quote:
Originally Posted by focus
I see that ur preserving your wealth very well, getting a rate of about 1-3% above inflation.
From an another angle, ur not growing your wealthy that greatly if u did not use leverage to your advantage, be it in property or bond etc.
A prudent investor is to take calculated risk and is not NOT to take risk.
Yes. That's why i say i am too conservative. very underleveraged.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laguna
I missed the boat for properties.. If only I met you earlier like in 2009! :) I might have gotten some wisdom to buy and maybe will have LEVELED Up by now..
So now I also dare not buy but you keep buying.. lol.. are we two opposite extremes?
So now must meet more mentors .. this thread is a good start since the poster "cbs#&$#&*&$" did an excellent summary of how he leverage up his cash for 50% LTV and get $180k.. But in the back of my mind, it's still the risk i'm scared of.. Properties on leverage somehow makes me feel safer though the calculation does not work out.
Your properties are mainly for capital gain right? The bonds are the passive income you are using.
Quote:
Originally Posted by focus
It is never too late to start. But overall, u have done very well compared to a lot of others...
I suppose ur now a very busy daddy...enjoy the baby first....
I like this topic :)
OLAM 10y 6.1% doing now, anyone keen ?
Leveraged bond compared with leveraged pty, for yield definitely bond if you have access. Pty I always said is for capital gain not for yield. When a prolonged 2009 case comes, pty prices collapse faster than bond prices, the latter at least are liquid.
Bro, wa lau, you already answer everything on bonds already. You invest in bonds more than me.
You see, the leverage game is a double edged sword and u need to know how to manage it.
Remember 2008/9, the stock market got hamtam, even if you don't leverage, you may get jam. Stocks like Keppel Land, DBS, etc... Were doing rights issue. You don't take their rights, u also jialat. You take their rights you Need to come out almost equivalent stock price at the point of rights issue. This stunt got a lot of people into trouble. That was when cash was king.
So in any instruments you go in, you must do it w knowledge of past.
Just curious, why did u not go into properties? :confused: :confused:
I believe going into a fixed income bond fund maybe a good optiion. Its liquid and provides diversification. You can leverage up too to improve the yield. But the fall back is the high cost involved. As someone has said earlier on the sales fee can be exorbitant ~ 2 to 3 pct on the purchase value. However, should the NAV goes up the amount can be recovered though this a risk you have to take. Also not sure though whether this is a good time to go into a bond fund. The fear is bond fund may now be too high with interest rate having bottomed for quite a while already. Can anybody advise?:doh:
Fisherman : are u catching fish for me to eat? if yes, then I share...
Cost of borrowing : currently is at 1.5-1.8%
sales charge is around 3%
Of course, if you are talking about big money, then all the private bankers here are willing to sit down with u to bring down the charges. This is what happened to my friend, he just inked the deal this week.
As for timing, I will not advise...as I still want to eat good fish..
ABN lunching SGD bond on 17th Oct12. guidance 5% 10 yrs.
LTV should be around 50% to 65%. Std chart is the book runner.
Demand should be huge. Min amt 250k.
The recent launched ABN usd bond 6.25% 10 yrs on 7th sept12 was well rec'd. Price to buy is now 105.
rdgs,
Vic
Sleepless nights...Quote:
Originally Posted by Laguna
Not from helping.... but from the baby cries.. lol..
forgot whether is a HE or SHE...Quote:
Originally Posted by focus
but definitely, this small one changes your life.....
bundle of joy and love
If you are not helping, then try sleeping in another room.Quote:
Originally Posted by focus
Wrong conviction.Quote:
Originally Posted by chestnut
1) Stocks was battered till so low.. how not to buy ..and how can it not be the next one to chiong.. so i Bought stocks monthly for the long term.. unfortunately, it went up and down every year to the same level.. So not much profit there.. Properties went up and up and up ... strange..
2) Guess the movement of interest rate wrongly. it was supposed to be QE1 and mass inflation and high borrowing costs to come.. It never did as QE2 came and LTRO came..and QE Infinity came. Euro did its part... and japan did its part... BOE did its part.. So interest rate is so low.. But in 2009-2010, i believed it will come up. I have never seen <3% interest rate in singapore..so my belief was this was an abornmality that will be corrected soon (since it's influenced by the US)
3) People's loss of faith in financial instruments while i kept my faith in those.
4) OVER-ANALYZING..and not using more guts. You see crisis ongoing.. how come property prices can chiong like that.. no reasons right...
5) Not meeting more property investors, like i say..if i meet laguna.. I might have changed my views earlier.
So now.. i am stuck between a rock and a hard place.. neither here nor there.
I doubt very much I could even influence you.Quote:
Originally Posted by focus
there are many people, sink in their belief so deeply and very difficult to crack and ask them to adopt others' view.
Bro, now I tell you an interesting story in 2008/9. I met up very regularly to play golf with my friend.
I told him "friend, stock market got beaten so bad, I think this is going to be prolonged. So go in monthly say 20K and accumulate over a year or 2".
Many months later, I met him and said,"Wa, you made money??? I went in big time when I saw the stocks moving up". Guess wat, kana whack by him - Why you go in big, you didnt tell me. I :scared-4:.
Same friend saw me going in props. So I explained the finer details and told him to go in. He went in 2009. Got out 2011. Made a cool 400K from a down of 200K. Thats it.
So I am very scared to give advise anymore. Give, they make - no thank you. If dont make, kana f. IF never keep them posted, also get f. Thankless job.
So I come forum to share, share but with no expectations of thanks from anyone. This is what I gladly do.
One question, do you have an investment property? If no, go in. Start with a small 1. Learn the ropes. If you are not in, how the HELL are you going to learn.
It is like me trying to show you how to swim. You watch from a tank for 1 year. After that, you jump into the pool, you think you know how to swim?
Pay to learn man. I just dont understand why you have so much cash and yet so scared???
Did you buy 10 bonds immediately???
Food for thought.
Quote:
Originally Posted by focus
Someone mentioned Eastspring M class earlier. How is it? It has returns of 5%. Should one sell, if one has it?
In my view, to drive the property prices higher (I am speaking of much higher), there is no doubt that there will be a stock market rally.Quote:
Originally Posted by focus
So hold on to the portfolio.