BOND THREAD

[teddybear]

You have to compare apple to apple lah........
If you divide by the downpayment you made donkeys years ago obviously even 50% return p.a. also can lah..........

Also, the costs of maintaining the property, paying agent fees, making good the property for next tenant etc, these vary from year to year (can't just take 1 year)........

Also, you still need to factor in income tax from property rentals........

果然是师父。

Yah actually both my rental units the yields are even higher than the numbers I quoted here.

But in view of the so called poor rental market, I have adjusted them downwards. Many can get even better rates!

Oops sorry I forgot we are in recession. Actually very cham...

[chestnut]

果然是师父。

Yah actually both my rental units the yields are even higher than the numbers I quoted here.

But in view of the so called poor rental market, I have adjusted them downwards. Many can get even better rates!

Oops sorry I forgot we are in recession. Actually very cham...

Kelonguni, you have been very nice to share your investment strategy.... I am glad you have invested. People who have not invested will find it difficult to understand your sharing. Some will slam you...

My first property investment was 24 years ago and yes, the property is fully paid by my tenant. And the downpayment then was only 10%.

You will get to enjoy the fruits when you retire👍

[Kelonguni]

Already factored in bro.

You have to compare apple to apple lah........
If you divide by the downpayment you made donkeys years ago obviously even 50% return p.a. also can lah..........

Also, the costs of maintaining the property, paying agent fees, making good the property for next tenant etc, these vary from year to year (can't just take 1 year)........

Also, you still need to factor in income tax from property rentals........

[teddybear]

Your calculations sound too good to be true ha ha ha!

1. $600k 1-2BR private property rent out for $1800 pm? If studio of 500 sqft, even in OCR also costs $1500 psf or $750k!

2. Such 400-500 sqft OCR private property likely difficult to rent out and also can't have tenants for full 18 years!

3. Didn't include income tax payable from net rentals (reported to IRAS).

4. Instead of 20% downpayment, if you take 50% (LTV for 2nd property which is current situation), you will see that return drop by more than half...

5. Maintenance fee unlikely to stay at $200 pm!

6. Interest rate unlike to stay at 1.7%! And interest increase doesn't mean there is capital gain or higher rental.

7. Didn't include agent fees to find replacement tenants.

8. Didn't include costs to make good the property for next tenant and other repairs.

Bro cbsh38584, you have a good strategy. I am keen to find out more about bonds before I commit, because based on stocks, 8% per annum is quite easily achieved for me.

But property buyers of specific types also have a comparable strategy.

Let's use your 1-2BR at 600K for example.

Right now we are experiencing very strong downward resistance plus upward resistance due to financing regulations, so let's assume in this scenario prices stay at 600K for 18 years (no upside, no downside).

Assuming a buyer who buys into this for rental puts in 25% downpayment for an almost TOP unit. Inclusive of Buyer Stamp Duty and miscellaneous fees, he puts in $168,000. Let's say he also furnishes it up with $5,000 furnishings, making the total sum paid $173,000.

Let me just place your numbers down for certainty. Please correct me if wrong. If I place $240,000 in a bond with 5.125%, I should collect $221,400 interests (non-compounded) or $362,552 (compounded) over 18 years. Which rate should I refer to for bonds?

Now assuming the buyer manages to rent out in a poor market $1,800 per month, and 2 months are used for all kinds of property payments, giving an annual net receipt of $18,000. Based on a 1.7% interest rate currently on a 30 year loan, in the first year (taking the 6th month payment), $965 goes into repaying his principal and $630 is for interest payment to the bank (monthly mortgage of $1595). Inclusive of maintenance fees ($200pm), the buyer puts in a further first year "loss" of $3600. In this context, the first year "gain" via the property mortgage paid is $11,580, while the net investment is $176,600. The % gain based on first year rental is 6.5%.

Assuming rents do not increase in 18 years by 2034 (a very unrealistic scenario), and interest rates do not increase (another unrealistic scenario), in the 210th month in the 18th year, the "gain" that is paid into his mortgage is $1290 versus an interest of $307. The "gain" on the 18th year will be roughly $15,480 based on his input of $237,800 ($173,000+$3600 loss every for 18 years), again 6.5%. Total rent deposited into the property mortgage is roughly $240,000 in 18 years with a mortgage half paid (remaining loan of $208,000), and total money out of pocket (paid by instalment) is $240,000. Part of the rent collected used to pay expenses.

Note that if interest rates do increase, I am of the belief that inflation will increase and capital prices will also gain as well. But it is too complicated to calculate in my simplistic model.

A compounded steady bond will perhaps gain more than a property in 18 years, but a non-compounded one will not beat a laggish 18 years of property. There is also the probability of non-payment or losses of bonds that is beyond a buyer's control. There is also the potential for significant capital growth of property which might not be evident these few years. Lastly, if the buyer manages to pay up his mortgage in 30 years, his net position will be a fully paid condo with lease ranging from 60 years to FH, and a continued $18,000 annually (by today's prices).

My calculations are purely based on the amount out of pocket every month. Now I understand what Arcachon means by fixed savings plan.

[Citizen]

Where on earth you find 13% net yield for Singapore private properties?
You must be dreaming!

Did he said it is a private property? I don't want to entangle in the debate, but just give a live example. My (PR) Myanmar colleague bought a resale hdb and partition additional rooms and rented out 800-900 each. His yield is anytime more than 13%. I asked why he didn't buy bonds and he laughed and replied. Stocks and bonds are for cash rich ppl, not for working class like him.

[Ilikeu]

Did he said it is a private property? I don't want to entangle in the debate, but just give a live example. My (PR) Myanmar colleague bought a resale hdb and partition additional rooms and rented out 800-900 each. His yield is anytime more than 13%. I asked why he didn't buy bonds and he laughed and replied. Stocks and bonds are for cash rich ppl, not for working class like him.

He had worked on $500k x 30% = $150k capital
Rental = $20k per year
Yield = $20k / $150k = 13%
This is incorrect. To work on leveraged yield, would need to work on leveraged cash flow (i.e. Deduct financing cost) divide by equity invested (i.e. $150k in this example.)

This is back of the envelope calculation. A more accurate calculation is to work on both Unleveraged IRR and Leveraged IRR (or Modified IRR) where other parameters such as time value and residual value are considered.

[teddybear]

Let's use your 1-2BR at 600K for example
- We are referring to this example stated below, unless you are telling us that 1-2BR HDB flat costs $600k and need 25% downpayment???

Are you sure you are even allowed to partition additional rooms in HDB flat???

Sound extreme exploitation to me and playing on gray area and bordering legality of the law, not something I will do or condone (and speaks very much about the moral character of the person)...........

Did he said it is a private property? I don't want to entangle in the debate, but just give a live example. My (PR) Myanmar colleague bought a resale hdb and partition additional rooms and rented out 800-900 each. His yield is anytime more than 13%. I asked why he didn't buy bonds and he laughed and replied. Stocks and bonds are for cash rich ppl, not for working class like him.

Bro cbsh38584, you have a good strategy. I am keen to find out more about bonds before I commit, because based on stocks, 8% per annum is quite easily achieved for me.

But property buyers of specific types also have a comparable strategy.

Let's use your 1-2BR at 600K for example.

Right now we are experiencing very strong downward resistance plus upward resistance due to financing regulations, so let's assume in this scenario prices stay at 600K for 18 years (no upside, no downside).

Assuming a buyer who buys into this for rental puts in 25% downpayment for an almost TOP unit. Inclusive of Buyer Stamp Duty and miscellaneous fees, he puts in $168,000. Let's say he also furnishes it up with $5,000 furnishings, making the total sum paid $173,000.

Let me just place your numbers down for certainty. Please correct me if wrong. If I place $240,000 in a bond with 5.125%, I should collect $221,400 interests (non-compounded) or $362,552 (compounded) over 18 years. Which rate should I refer to for bonds?

Now assuming the buyer manages to rent out in a poor market $1,800 per month, and 2 months are used for all kinds of property payments, giving an annual net receipt of $18,000. Based on a 1.7% interest rate currently on a 30 year loan, in the first year (taking the 6th month payment), $965 goes into repaying his principal and $630 is for interest payment to the bank (monthly mortgage of $1595). Inclusive of maintenance fees ($200pm), the buyer puts in a further first year "loss" of $3600. In this context, the first year "gain" via the property mortgage paid is $11,580, while the net investment is $176,600. The % gain based on first year rental is 6.5%.

Assuming rents do not increase in 18 years by 2034 (a very unrealistic scenario), and interest rates do not increase (another unrealistic scenario), in the 210th month in the 18th year, the "gain" that is paid into his mortgage is $1290 versus an interest of $307. The "gain" on the 18th year will be roughly $15,480 based on his input of $237,800 ($173,000+$3600 loss every for 18 years), again 6.5%. Total rent deposited into the property mortgage is roughly $240,000 in 18 years with a mortgage half paid (remaining loan of $208,000), and total money out of pocket (paid by instalment) is $240,000. Part of the rent collected used to pay expenses.

Note that if interest rates do increase, I am of the belief that inflation will increase and capital prices will also gain as well. But it is too complicated to calculate in my simplistic model.

A compounded steady bond will perhaps gain more than a property in 18 years, but a non-compounded one will not beat a laggish 18 years of property. There is also the probability of non-payment or losses of bonds that is beyond a buyer's control. There is also the potential for significant capital growth of property which might not be evident these few years. Lastly, if the buyer manages to pay up his mortgage in 30 years, his net position will be a fully paid condo with lease ranging from 60 years to FH, and a continued $18,000 annually (by today's prices).

My calculations are purely based on the amount out of pocket every month. Now I understand what Arcachon means by fixed savings plan.

[Ilikeu]

If the government did not intervene with all the cooling measures, what would have happened with our property market????

1. Would it overhear and continue its upward trend? or
2. Would it be neutral? or
3. Would it go downwards?

Answer the question and it will lead you somewhere.

Why did the government intervene???? Was the pricing on a runaway train????

When you buy an investment property, please think long term. 30 years. Maybe 20 years. If you think 2 years, you are better off buying stocks, bonds, etc.....

Property investment is similar to bonds.... Why???? If you did not dabble with bonds, you are hesitant.... You will have doubts.... You will not know the workings of this particular investment....

Ask Kelonguni, is he happy w his property investment???

Ask cbsh, is he happy w his bond investment????

Both dabbled in it and understand the beauty in its own instrument...

Which is a better investment????? It's all about what you want to achieve....

You talk sense.... agreed.

[Citizen]

I believed Master Kelonguni and cbsh are financially sound, I believed there are some readers who are just starting their path. They do need some sound guardian and starting path somehow. Should they start with property ,stocks ,bonds or other investments ? Of course if got no limit resources I believe they can teach all masters here what and how to invest.

[indomie]

He had worked on $500k x 30% = $150k capital
Rental = $20k per year
Yield = $20k / $150k = 13%
This is incorrect. To work on leveraged yield, would need to work on leveraged cash flow (i.e. Deduct financing cost) divide by equity invested (i.e. $150k in this example.)

This is back of the envelope calculation. A more accurate calculation is to work on both Unleveraged IRR and Leveraged IRR (or Modified IRR) where other parameters such as time value and residual value are considered.

My assumption is mortgage repayment = rental. So the yield is actually build into the equity.

[Citizen]

I remembered LKS advice on working class on dividing pay into five portions is the best. Reality and down to earth method

[jwong71]

Some like buy properties because can see can touch, got feeling..
Just same like some like buy resale, immediate can touch,can see, got feelinggggggsss.. while some like new launch..
Bonds cannot touch, no feelingggsss. Each to individual likings

[bargain hunter]

You have to compare apple to apple lah........
If you divide by the downpayment you made donkeys years ago obviously even 50% return p.a. also can lah..........

Also, the costs of maintaining the property, paying agent fees, making good the property for next tenant etc, these vary from year to year (can't just take 1 year)........

Also, you still need to factor in income tax from property rentals........

i think we can use down payment, as been discussed, ppty as an investment is different for everybody and not for everybody, so it boils down to own circumstances. different pple can leverage to different levels and for different tenure of loans.

[bargain hunter]

I remembered LKS advice on working class on dividing pay into five portions is the best. Reality and down to earth method

LKS said he didn't write that article.

[indomie]

In my opinion, sg property is a high yield, low risk investment. "Provided you still qualify with the financing". This country is more stable than other countries. So long term risk is minimal. Those who understand still buying if they can. 1 million dolar here is actually cheaper than 300k elsewhere.

[Citizen]

Li Ka-shing on how you can buy a car and house in 5 years, Personal Finance, Personal Finance, AsiaOne Business News
business.asiaone.com › personal-finance

[Arcachon]

When Li Ka-shing got a lot of money what is say is SOP, when he go bankrupt what he say is shit.

[teddybear]

What I am saying is that you cannot use downpayment for a property you made 20 years ago to calculate the rental yield now, you have to mark to market value.....

Rather, you have to ask yourself, if you sell the property and with the amount of net cash you get back, what investment you can made and what yield you can then get compared to still continuing to hold the property for rental - This then is the correct financial management approach. With this approach, a lot of the "if" are all gone and it is about YOU vs YOU (i.e. which investment can generate HIGHER returns???)............

i think we can use down payment, as been discussed, ppty as an investment is different for everybody and not for everybody, so it boils down to own circumstances. different pple can leverage to different levels and for different tenure of loans.

[Kelonguni]

My assumption is mortgage repayment = rental. So the yield is actually build into the equity.

Ha... that is too kelong already.

Part of rental goes to interest payments also. It doesn't all go into equity. In low interest environment, most of it goes into equity.

[bargain hunter]

Li Ka-shing on how you can buy a car and house in 5 years, Personal Finance, Personal Finance, AsiaOne Business News
business.asiaone.com › personal-finance

http://business.asiaone.com/personal...-house-5-years

In an article posted on CEO Connectz, Li Ka-shing, who is worth US$31 billion, talks about how one can afford to live comfortably with a house and a car even if their monthly pay is below $500 a month. - See more at: http://business.asiaone.com/personal....JRThdYoI.dpuf

he denied it way before asiaone published it:

http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/a...ck-tips-online

[cbsh38584]

My niece bought Aquarius by the park (D16) in 1997 @$900psf during the peak. After the 97/98 Asia crisis, the price
dropped to around $400+ psf. It was only after 15-18 yrs later, the price went up to $900 psf (due to MRT).
The same psf price she bought in 1997. No capital gain. Most of the time, it was not rented out due to location. All this
years , she had paid thousand of $ on ppty tax , maintenance fee , high mortgage loan , renovation here & there etc etc.

I believe those who bought NEW condo (not those b4 2006) in 2011 to 2012 maybe in the same suitation. It will take many many years to see capital gain on your ppty. If there is a capital gain + some rental income. Your gain will be much lesser due to ppty tax, high maintenance fee , raising mortgage loan, 50% of the time cannot rent out due to excess supply etc.

Ppty investment may longer be the same before 2006. I bought The seaview in [email protected]. Sold in [email protected]. This kind of absurd capital gain in such a short time frame with only 20% downpayment (at that time) may no longer happen again as the govt has implemented many cooling measure to ensure no speculation. The ABSD (2nd = 7% , 3rd=10% & 15%) may not be removed & back to only 3% stamp fee. Govt need to collect more related ppty tax to pay more social support to lessen the burden of the Pioneer generation , medishield life , low income group etc. Maybe only the TDSR will remove.

Our govt is strong. But many S'porean are mentally tired to work much harder to strive to upgrade for a better future.
Inflation is so so much higher after 2010. I feel sad for those 20+ to 30+. It is really very stressful for them to get marry & have 2 kids. Milk power $26+ in 2010. Now $50+. Most of the non PAP kindergarden $800+ to $1400+ (without subsidy).
That is why I pump in CASH in my son CPF at a very early age while I still can do so. They will not have problem to pay for
future HDB home. I plan 15 to 20 yrs ahead.

I encourage people to use SRS just to buy safe retail bond like capitalmall asia 3.8% , capmall 3.08%, FCL 3.65%. Try not to buy stock unless U are a savvy investors & are not emotional type of person.

[Kelonguni]

Bro, you have not been looking at OCR. I suggest you look at The Sorrento sales 2014 and rental caveats 2015 to 2016 as a practice. Just over 600K but rent is between 2200 to 2600. FH MM. Tell me got demand bo... you want larger one also can find but please do your homework too.

I only used 10 months rent into pocket. 2 months for miscellaneous.

You can recalculate whichever way you wish. It will make sense to those who are into this class.

Your calculations sound too good to be true ha ha ha!

1. $600k 1-2BR private property rent out for $1800 pm? If studio of 500 sqft, even in OCR also costs $1500 psf or $750k!

2. Such 400-500 sqft OCR private property likely difficult to rent out and also can't have tenants for full 18 years!

3. Didn't include income tax payable from net rentals (reported to IRAS).

4. Instead of 20% downpayment, if you take 50% (LTV for 2nd property which is current situation), you will see that return drop by more than half...

5. Maintenance fee unlikely to stay at $200 pm!

6. Interest rate unlike to stay at 1.7%! And interest increase doesn't mean there is capital gain or higher rental.

7. Didn't include agent fees to find replacement tenants.

8. Didn't include costs to make good the property for next tenant and other repairs.

[teddybear]

Mmm........., indeed, I have same feeling as you........
I felt that those who bought OCR private properties in 2012 to now and in future at about current price will likely see little to no capital gain (after net off costs) until after 2022 or even much later (probably 15-18 years period as you mentioned).............

My niece bought Aquarius by the park (D16) in 1997 @$900psf during the peak. After the 97/98 Asia crisis, the price
dropped to around $400+ psf. It was only after 15-18 yrs later, the price went up to $900 psf (due to MRT).
The same psf price she bought in 1997. No capital gain. Most of the time, it was not rented out due to location. All this
years , she had paid thousand of $ on ppty tax , maintenance fee , high mortgage loan , renovation here & there etc etc.

I believe those who bought NEW condo (not those b4 2006) in 2011 to 2012 maybe in the same suitation. It will take many many years to see capital gain on your ppty. If there is a capital gain + some rental income. Your gain will be much lesser due to ppty tax, high maintenance fee , raising mortgage loan, 50% of the time cannot rent out due to excess supply etc.

Ppty investment may longer be the same before 2006. I bought The seaview in [email protected]. Sold in [email protected]. This kind of absurd capital gain in such a short time frame with only 20% downpayment (at that time) may no longer happen again as the govt has implemented many cooling measure to ensure no speculation. The ABSD (2nd = 7% , 3rd=10% & 15%) may not be removed & back to only 3% stamp fee. Govt need to collect more related ppty tax to pay more social support to lessen the burden of the Pioneer generation , medishield life , low income group etc. Maybe only the TDSR will remove.

Our govt is strong. But many S'porean are mentally tired to work much harder to strive to upgrade for a better future.
Inflation is so so much higher after 2010. I feel sad for those 20+ to 30+. It is really very stressful for them to get marry & have 2 kids. Milk power $26+ in 2010. Now $50+. Most of the non PAP kindergarden $800+ to $1400+ (without subsidy).
That is why I pump in CASH in my son CPF at a very early age while I still can do so. They will not have problem to pay for
future HDB home. I plan 15 to 20 yrs ahead.

I encourage people to use SRS just to buy safe retail bond like capitalmall asia 3.8% , capmall 3.08%, FCL 3.65%. Try not to buy stock unless U are a savvy investors & are not emotional type of person.

[Kelonguni]

Analysts also say CCR will still continue to trend down or gap down but I refuse to believe them. I wish you luck.

OK I believe I have more or less done a decent but not perfect comparison of bonds versus property. Readers can gauge all the values, question the assumptions and draw their own conclusions. I believe the majority of property buyers in 2011 onwards are geared towards very long term holdings, and price movements may not be obvious. Slow appreciation for the time being but within expectations.

Will let CBSH continue with his sharing of good bond offering and not carry on in this thread. Thanks.

Mmm........., indeed, I have same feeling as you........
I felt that those who bought OCR private properties in 2012 to now and in future at about current price will likely see little to no capital gain (after net off costs) until after 2022 or even much later (probably 15-18 years period as you mentioned).............

[chestnut]

1997, if you had invested in stocks (same time as your niece bought Aquarius). Would the stock have recovered in 15-18 years????

Stocks and property market are co related.....

In fact, stocks are forward looking....

The issue today is not many people willing to pay ABSD.... Those who did not buy before implementation of ABSD 'cannot' buy or unwilling to fork out the additional 7/10%. Remember, the Govt implemented 3% ABSD and found out it didn't work and then implemented the 7/10%.

I have already started to impart my property know how to my kids.... Even though I have bonds, stocks, etc.... My sharing is simple : Let the tenant pay for your property/properties.

Properties can always be rented out.... It is all about expectations of the rental.

Your Niece bought Aquarius @900 psf. Take 1,200 sq ft. It is about $1,080,000. She cannot even rent it out for 3000? She probably didn't have a good agent or expected more....

If she had rent out at 3k. That's 36k per year. Minus property tax, maintenance, etc.... 20k. 20k x 15 years = 300k.

Your mind is set that it's a bad time to invest.

My niece bought Aquarius by the park (D16) in 1997 @$900psf during the peak. After the 97/98 Asia crisis, the price
dropped to around $400+ psf. It was only after 15-18 yrs later, the price went up to $900 psf (due to MRT).
The same psf price she bought in 1997. No capital gain. Most of the time, it was not rented out due to location. All this
years , she had paid thousand of $ on ppty tax , maintenance fee , high mortgage loan , renovation here & there etc etc.

I believe those who bought NEW condo (not those b4 2006) in 2011 to 2012 maybe in the same suitation. It will take many many years to see capital gain on your ppty. If there is a capital gain + some rental income. Your gain will be much lesser due to ppty tax, high maintenance fee , raising mortgage loan, 50% of the time cannot rent out due to excess supply etc.

Ppty investment may longer be the same before 2006. I bought The seaview in [email protected]. Sold in [email protected]. This kind of absurd capital gain in such a short time frame with only 20% downpayment (at that time) may no longer happen again as the govt has implemented many cooling measure to ensure no speculation. The ABSD (2nd = 7% , 3rd=10% & 15%) may not be removed & back to only 3% stamp fee. Govt need to collect more related ppty tax to pay more social support to lessen the burden of the Pioneer generation , medishield life , low income group etc. Maybe only the TDSR will remove.

Our govt is strong. But many S'porean are mentally tired to work much harder to strive to upgrade for a better future.
Inflation is so so much higher after 2010. I feel sad for those 20+ to 30+. It is really very stressful for them to get marry & have 2 kids. Milk power $26+ in 2010. Now $50+. Most of the non PAP kindergarden $800+ to $1400+ (without subsidy).
That is why I pump in CASH in my son CPF at a very early age while I still can do so. They will not have problem to pay for
future HDB home. I plan 15 to 20 yrs ahead.

I encourage people to use SRS just to buy safe retail bond like capitalmall asia 3.8% , capmall 3.08%, FCL 3.65%. Try not to buy stock unless U are a savvy investors & are not emotional type of person.

[chestnut]

Oops, bond thread.... Wrong sharing.... Off and away.

Thanks Kelonguni for the reminder....

Disappearing again for a long while

[proud owner]

In 1996/7 due to my salary, I could not apply for HDB.
I was offered an EC, which i bought, at about 600k ( after grant).
It didnt TOP until 1999.

During Asian crisis, a lot of banks/Traders lost a lot a lot of $$$$... I am sure those who invested in Equities / Bonds / Properties all died like a dog.

I was lucky.

My own trading + my bank's trading both did VERY VERY WELL.

We were totally unharmed by the crisis. Instead, made a lot of money.


Then there was 911.
Sars.

Property prices continued to fall.

2004 i started to market to sell my EC.

I lowered the price to 345k ( almost half price ) .. there was NO BUYER.

Frustrated, i decided not to sell.

In 2004/5, a brilliant trading idea came to mind.

I started my Buying spree in 2005.

Buying landed houses, Penthouse condos.

My instructions to agent was :
BIG units,
FREEHOLD,
D 1,2,3,4,5 and 10

the smallest condo i bought was 2271 sqft.


when the mkt started going crazy..... 2 of my old condos, got enbloc, both D10.

With the $$ from the enbloc, I bought another landed.

The rest of the $$ went into my Currency trading acc ...

regardless Up and Down economies ... theres always opportunities to make $$ in currency trading

Between 2007 to 2012 .... i was in USA ....

I became a landlord. and that felt really good.

My wife quit her job in 2007 just before we left SG.

when we returned in 2012... i retired.

Today ... i am still a landlord.
I am still trading my currency ( not full time )


during the 2008/9 Lehman crisis, I was managing the banks' cash book of USD 5bio.

While now everyone is still suing banks for their loses, I was again lucky. I made a lot of $$ for my bank.


MAYBE i have been lucky.

I have seen friends / relatives lost shxt loads of $$ in Equities / Bonds / Properties while i have always been lucky in Currency.

that i tend to be biased and favor trading currency.

[Ilikeu]

You are a successful man. Respect.

In 1996/7 due to my salary, I could not apply for HDB.
I was offered an EC, which i bought, at about 600k ( after grant).
It didnt TOP until 1999.

During Asian crisis, a lot of banks/Traders lost a lot a lot of $$$$... I am sure those who invested in Equities / Bonds / Properties all died like a dog.

I was lucky.

My own trading + my bank's trading both did VERY VERY WELL.

We were totally unharmed by the crisis. Instead, made a lot of money.


Then there was 911.
Sars.

Property prices continued to fall.

2004 i started to market to sell my EC.

I lowered the price to 345k ( almost half price ) .. there was NO BUYER.

Frustrated, i decided not to sell.

In 2004/5, a brilliant trading idea came to mind.

I started my Buying spree in 2005.

Buying landed houses, Penthouse condos.

My instructions to agent was :
BIG units,
FREEHOLD,
D 1,2,3,4,5 and 10

the smallest condo i bought was 2271 sqft.


when the mkt started going crazy..... 2 of my old condos, got enbloc, both D10.

With the $$ from the enbloc, I bought another landed.

The rest of the $$ went into my Currency trading acc ...

regardless Up and Down economies ... theres always opportunities to make $$ in currency trading

Between 2007 to 2012 .... i was in USA ....

I became a landlord. and that felt really good.

My wife quit her job in 2007 just before we left SG.

when we returned in 2012... i retired.

Today ... i am still a landlord.
I am still trading my currency ( not full time )


during the 2008/9 Lehman crisis, I was managing the banks' cash book of USD 5bio.

While now everyone is still suing banks for their loses, I was again lucky. I made a lot of $$ for my bank.


MAYBE i have been lucky.

I have seen friends / relatives lost shxt loads of $$ in Equities / Bonds / Properties while i have always been lucky in Currency.

that i tend to be biased and favor trading currency.

[stl67]

Beside luck and guts, also need Brain.. Proud Owner have all..

[Amber Woods]

Since this is a bond thread in a property forum, it is good to look at who are the retail corporate bond investors who also own multiple properties?

For the retail investors, corporate bonds are available through financial institutions such as banks and some security firms who have a bond desk. These institutions act as custody for the bond papers you hold.

Most retail investors trade their bonds via banks as private client or priority client.

Private clients usually have at least $3m in liquid cash or investment assets with the bank. This group of people are very rich and savvy and usually know what they want. They usually own multiple properties, bonds and other more complex instruments. While they hold investment properties for long-term investment, they are always ready to buy or sell when the price is right. They are able to maximize their returns because they have the financial means to be flexible. They form the greatest percentage of corporate bond holders.

The priority clients are the most diverse group and usually have at least $300k to $3m of assets with the banks. At the higher end of the spectrum, this group may already owned multiple properties and investing in bonds is part of their investment portfolio. Like their private clients, the more savvy investors will buy and sell their investment properties when the price is right. Their goal is to maximize their returns of investments. Many in this group can also be conservative too and tend to hold on to their investment properties just for passive incomes and to pass them on to their next generation. This group of people invest in bond and property as part of their investment portfolio.

At the lower end of this group, they do not have that many choices when come to investment. They either invest in property or bond and often could not afford to invest in both. It they have only $300K to invest, they are not going to put this money in bond. Since their investment option is limited, they are likely to invest in property. They do not have the flexibility of switching from property to other instrument even if the price is right to sell or buy more. The more successful investors would go on to own multiple properties through leveraging. This group is huge and is a force in the property market. This is also the group the cooling measures are targeted at because if they over-leveraged and if the tide is against them, they will be in trouble.

Of course many retail investors also invest in retail bonds (tradable through your stock broker or online) and preference shares for dividend yields. These can be traded in lot of 1000 like ordinary shares using cash or CPF.

When we discuss about bond investment, we need to be mindful of the different groups of people in this forum. Not all have the same investment options available to them and hence their views differ.