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Thread: BOND THREAD

  1. #2251
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    The problem is that when crash time comes, there is just no tenant for lousy location!
    E.g., HillView, Asking $1500 pm for 3 Bedder condo also no taker...............

    If so easy to tahan we will not be seeing more and more properties being auctioned off by banks....................

    Quote Originally Posted by chestnut View Post
    400k down, 600k loan. Monthly repayment over 30 years at 2% = $2,217
    @3% = $2,529

    Can rent out at how much to ensure got tenant????

    1st house fully paid... So cpf go to cpf account. Right???? Assuming use cash to pay mortgage. Max cpf into account - don't know exact amount. Let's take 1,500 per month. This translates to $18k per year. From 2011 to end 2015. That is 5 years. That is cpf savings of $90k. Right??? Can use this to tahan????

    http://blog.moneysmart.sg/opinion/bu...g-to-cost-you/
    Last edited by teddybear; 17-04-16 at 23:02.

  2. #2252
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    Both are marginal with little cash to to tahan over crash time..........

    However, the person who has $400k cash more heartache and has more to lose because he thought he richer than the one with $200k cash but end up getting his property auctioned off by the bank (and he won't be in that situation if LTV is 80% (instead of 60%))..............

    Quote Originally Posted by chestnut View Post
    If ltv is 80%, person downs 200k w no spare and borrow ltv 800k. Vs ltv 60%, person downs 400k w no spare and borrow 600k. Which is more marginal????

  3. #2253
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    Lower LTV is definitely safer for both borrower and the lender. All lenders love low LTV which will improve the credit ratings.

    If LTV is say 20% only, that would mean the investor is a very very very marginal investor going by your illustration, as compared to someone who borrows 80%.


    Quote Originally Posted by teddybear View Post
    I think you have the bias, that is why you cannot see the reality that actually lower LTV makes more people become marginal investors and causes the higher probability that more people will end up getting their property auctioned off by banks when crash time comes!!!!!!!.........

    So FACT: Lower LTV for property doesn't mean investing in property is safer for the investor (in fact, is make it more dangerous)!

    Let's look at the 2 scenario for the same person:
    1) LTV 80% on 2nd loan
    2) LTV 60% on 2nd loan

    If the person is able to afford LTV 60%, that means he can afford LTV of 80%.
    In the second scenario, may be the person just have 40% cash (vs property price) and put all down into property and left little cash for emergency (eg lose job, no tenant, which are all likely to happen at the same time when time is bad (eg global financial crisis and global economic recession)!

    Now compare to 1st scenario when the person put 20% downpayment and still hold 20% cash, in this case he will have cash to withstand losing job, having no tenant for his investment property etc.

    So conclusions:
    1) Lower LTV causes more people to become marginal property investors!

    2) Lower LTV likely will cause more people to end up their investment property being auctioned off at cheapskate price by the bank when crash time comes!

    Now, given above facts, who really want to have lower LTV and how can lower LTV make investing in property safer???

  4. #2254
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    1st house fully paid... So cpf go to cpf account. Right???? Assuming use cash from rental to pay mortgage. Max cpf into account - don't know exact amount. Let's take 1,500 per month. This translates to $18k per year. From 2011 to end 2015. That is 5 years. That is cpf savings of $90k. Right??? Can use this to tahan????

  5. #2255
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    If LTV 20% but no cash to tahan over crash times, the borrower is still as marginal as ever............
    So the important keyword is "CASH", not LTV.............

    Obviously lower LTV is good for lenders (the banks), but not the property investors, and the lower the LTV the worst shit the property investors get..........

    Quote Originally Posted by Ilikeu View Post
    Lower LTV is definitely safer for both borrower and the lender. All lenders love low LTV which will improve the credit ratings.

    If LTV is say 20% only, that would mean the investor is a very very very marginal investor going by your illustration, as compared to someone who borrows 80%.

  6. #2256
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    We should have LTV 99% then.


    Quote Originally Posted by teddybear View Post
    If LTV 20% but no cash to tahan over crash times, the borrower is still as marginal as ever............
    So the important keyword is "CASH", not LTV.............

    Obviously lower LTV is good for lenders (the banks), but not the property investors, and the lower the LTV the worst shit the property investors get..........

  7. #2257
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    Long last time ago they had LTV 120%. Can't remember for cars or houses or HDBs.

    Can imagine the uproar.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ilikeu View Post
    We should have LTV 99% then.
    The three laws of Kelonguni:

    Where there is kelong, there is guni.
    No kelong no guni.
    More kelong = more guni.

  8. #2258
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    Eh bro, you using hallucination language again. Maybe it surfaced from dreams?

    I checked Hillview rental caveats for Feb to Mar 2016 for the time points you mentioned. Lowest was 2100, highest was 3000. Or maybe please enlighten on which development it is.

    Good night and have a great sleep.

    HILLVIEW 128 HILLVIEW AVENUE 23 Non-landed Properties 3 2,300 900 to 1000 Mar-16

    HILLVIEW GREEN HUME AVENUE 21 Non-landed Properties 3 3,000 1300 to 1400 Mar-16
    HILLVIEW GREEN HUME AVENUE 21 Non-landed Properties 3 2,650 1300 to 1400 Mar-16
    HILLVIEW GREEN HUME AVENUE 21 Non-landed Properties 3 2,500 1300 to 1400 Mar-16
    HILLVIEW GREEN HUME AVENUE 21 Non-landed Properties 3 2,700 1300 to 1400 Mar-16
    HILLVIEW GREEN HUME AVENUE 21 Non-landed Properties 3 2,400 1200 to 1300 Mar-16
    HILLVIEW GREEN HUME AVENUE 21 Non-landed Properties 3 2,600 1400 to 1500 Mar-16
    HILLVIEW GREEN HUME AVENUE 21 Non-landed Properties 3 2,500 1300 to 1400 Feb-16
    HILLVIEW 128 HILLVIEW AVENUE 23 Non-landed Properties 3 2,100 900 to 1000 Feb-16
    HILLVIEW 128 HILLVIEW AVENUE 23 Non-landed Properties 3 2,300 900 to 1000 Feb-16

    HILLVIEW PARK HILLVIEW AVENUE 23 Non-landed Properties 3 2,600 1200 to 1300 Mar-16
    HILLVIEW RESIDENCE HILLVIEW AVENUE 23 Non-landed Properties 3 2,400 1200 to 1300 Mar-16
    HILLVIEW HEIGHTS HILLVIEW AVENUE 23 Non-landed Properties 3 3,250 1400 to 1500 Mar-16
    HILLVIEW PARK HILLVIEW AVENUE 23 Non-landed Properties 3 2,500 1200 to 1300 Mar-16
    HILLVIEW REGENCY BUKIT BATOK EAST AVENUE 2 23 Non-landed Properties 3 2,750 1000 to 1100 Mar-16
    HILLVIEW REGENCY BUKIT BATOK EAST AVENUE 2 23 Non-landed Properties 3 2,800 1000 to 1100 Mar-16
    HILLVIEW HEIGHTS HILLVIEW AVENUE 23 Non-landed Properties 3 2,500 1200 to 1300 Feb-16
    HILLVIEW HEIGHTS HILLVIEW AVENUE 23 Non-landed Properties 3 2,800 1200 to 1300 Feb-16
    HILLVIEW PARK HILLVIEW AVENUE 23 Non-landed Properties 3 2,100 1200 to 1300 Feb-16
    HILLVIEW HEIGHTS HILLVIEW AVENUE 23 Non-landed Properties 3 3,000 1400 to 1500 Feb-16
    HILLVIEW PARK HILLVIEW AVENUE 23 Non-landed Properties 3 2,500 1200 to 1300 Feb-16
    HILLVIEW HEIGHTS HILLVIEW AVENUE 23 Non-landed Properties 3 2,900 1100 to 1200 Feb-16
    HILLVIEW PARK HILLVIEW AVENUE 23 Non-landed Properties 3 2,500 1400 to 1500 Feb-16

    Quote Originally Posted by teddybear View Post
    The problem is that when crash time comes, there is just no tenant for lousy location!
    E.g., HillView, Asking $1500 pm for 3 Bedder condo also no taker...............

    If so easy to tahan we will not be seeing more and more properties being auctioned off by banks....................
    The three laws of Kelonguni:

    Where there is kelong, there is guni.
    No kelong no guni.
    More kelong = more guni.

  9. #2259
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelonguni View Post
    Long last time ago they had LTV 120%. Can't remember for cars or houses or HDBs.

    Can imagine the uproar.
    At one time, we can obtain LTV more than 100% for yen-financing, can borrow more to pay for interest servicing as well.

  10. #2260
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    Quote Originally Posted by teddybear View Post

    So FACT: Lower LTV for property doesn't mean investing in property is safer for the investor (in fact, is make it more dangerous)!
    Errrr.....this fact you defined......you have a different sense of interpretation of financial jargon and policies that would mean a whole new way of doing credit ratings.

    If the LTV maintain at 80% (instead of 60%), the same person would probably buy 2x of the ppty value, rather than use 20% as downpayment and keep 20% cash.

    Btw, the risk of event of default increases with a higher LTV (and not the other way around) due to higher debt service ratio, and easier decision for borrower to abandon the asset since it is easier to be in negative equity (assuming it is a non recourse loan).

  11. #2261
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    Why not?
    You used to be able to obtain car financing for LTV of 100% (and many car dealers can even arrange 120% LTV for you!)
    It is all a matter of government policies, previously they allowed banks to loan 100% for buying cars, not like it has never been done before..........

    If I am not wrong, buying HDB flat you still can get 90% LTV right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ilikeu View Post
    We should have LTV 99% then.

  12. #2262
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    Credit ratings?
    The credit ratings that resulted in subprime crisis?
    Who believe their traditional way of defining things????

    Face it, if you have no CASH, regardless of your LTV is 80%, 60%, 40%, 10%, and hence if you have no money to pay monthly instalments to the banks, your property will be auctioned off by the banks!
    So how do you define credit ratings for LTV 80% vs LTV of 10% that do not have CASH to pay instalments?

    As far as I see, holding huge liquid assets (including CASH) have the highest PERSONAL credit ratings (vs banks' credit ratings) in CRASH times (regardless of your LTV, even if your LTV is 10% also useless if you have no CASH on hand!)...........
    or simply put, if you have no CASH on hand, your PERSONAL credit ratings is ZERO!

    Come on, we all know all these credit ratings are meant to protect the banks, not the borrowers isn't it?



    Quote Originally Posted by Ilikeu View Post
    Errrr.....this fact you defined......you have a different sense of interpretation of financial jargon and policies that would mean a whole new way of doing credit ratings.

    If the LTV maintain at 80% (instead of 60%), the same person would probably buy 2x of the ppty value, rather than use 20% as downpayment and keep 20% cash.

    Btw, the risk of event of default increases with a higher LTV (and not the other way around) due to higher debt service ratio, and easier decision for borrower to abandon the asset since it is easier to be in negative equity (assuming it is a non recourse loan).

  13. #2263
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    Think you are too young to know???
    That was a time in 1998-2004, 7 long years!

    About the period that cbsh quoted about his niece buying a property in Aquarius by the park that can't find tenant.............

    Many people just don't learn their lesson (may be because they always look at things the way that newspapers publish or what other people tell them without using their brain to think and explore in many different angles, eg high "credit ratings" for people buy property with 40% LTV but has no cash to service the instalment? Sigh!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelonguni View Post
    Eh bro, you using hallucination language again. Maybe it surfaced from dreams?

    I checked Hillview rental caveats for Feb to Mar 2016 for the time points you mentioned. Lowest was 2100, highest was 3000. Or maybe please enlighten on which development it is.

    Good night and have a great sleep.

    HILLVIEW 128 HILLVIEW AVENUE 23 Non-landed Properties 3 2,300 900 to 1000 Mar-16

    HILLVIEW GREEN HUME AVENUE 21 Non-landed Properties 3 3,000 1300 to 1400 Mar-16
    HILLVIEW GREEN HUME AVENUE 21 Non-landed Properties 3 2,650 1300 to 1400 Mar-16
    HILLVIEW GREEN HUME AVENUE 21 Non-landed Properties 3 2,500 1300 to 1400 Mar-16
    HILLVIEW GREEN HUME AVENUE 21 Non-landed Properties 3 2,700 1300 to 1400 Mar-16
    HILLVIEW GREEN HUME AVENUE 21 Non-landed Properties 3 2,400 1200 to 1300 Mar-16
    HILLVIEW GREEN HUME AVENUE 21 Non-landed Properties 3 2,600 1400 to 1500 Mar-16
    HILLVIEW GREEN HUME AVENUE 21 Non-landed Properties 3 2,500 1300 to 1400 Feb-16
    HILLVIEW 128 HILLVIEW AVENUE 23 Non-landed Properties 3 2,100 900 to 1000 Feb-16
    HILLVIEW 128 HILLVIEW AVENUE 23 Non-landed Properties 3 2,300 900 to 1000 Feb-16

    HILLVIEW PARK HILLVIEW AVENUE 23 Non-landed Properties 3 2,600 1200 to 1300 Mar-16
    HILLVIEW RESIDENCE HILLVIEW AVENUE 23 Non-landed Properties 3 2,400 1200 to 1300 Mar-16
    HILLVIEW HEIGHTS HILLVIEW AVENUE 23 Non-landed Properties 3 3,250 1400 to 1500 Mar-16
    HILLVIEW PARK HILLVIEW AVENUE 23 Non-landed Properties 3 2,500 1200 to 1300 Mar-16
    HILLVIEW REGENCY BUKIT BATOK EAST AVENUE 2 23 Non-landed Properties 3 2,750 1000 to 1100 Mar-16
    HILLVIEW REGENCY BUKIT BATOK EAST AVENUE 2 23 Non-landed Properties 3 2,800 1000 to 1100 Mar-16
    HILLVIEW HEIGHTS HILLVIEW AVENUE 23 Non-landed Properties 3 2,500 1200 to 1300 Feb-16
    HILLVIEW HEIGHTS HILLVIEW AVENUE 23 Non-landed Properties 3 2,800 1200 to 1300 Feb-16
    HILLVIEW PARK HILLVIEW AVENUE 23 Non-landed Properties 3 2,100 1200 to 1300 Feb-16
    HILLVIEW HEIGHTS HILLVIEW AVENUE 23 Non-landed Properties 3 3,000 1400 to 1500 Feb-16
    HILLVIEW PARK HILLVIEW AVENUE 23 Non-landed Properties 3 2,500 1200 to 1300 Feb-16
    HILLVIEW HEIGHTS HILLVIEW AVENUE 23 Non-landed Properties 3 2,900 1100 to 1200 Feb-16
    HILLVIEW PARK HILLVIEW AVENUE 23 Non-landed Properties 3 2,500 1400 to 1500 Feb-16

  14. #2264
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    I think teddy is referring to worst case scenario which I do consider and assign some probabilities.

    If shit hits the fence, you won't be able to find a tenant.
    - If you are employee, you would lose a job. You have to drawdown your saving for monthly expenditure. And you would still have to pay for mortgage. Double whammy.

    - If you are business owner, your operating cashflow will go negative very quickly. Banks will call on your capex loan since the valuation on your business has dropped. They want to be the first to call not the last holding on to paper. So you have to gather whatever cash you have to pay down loan and at the same time continue paying family expenditure and mortgages. Triple whammy.

    On the above scenario, even if your LTV is 20%, if you can't service debt, they will force you to sell. There is a mention on ST Business today on Private bank urging owner to sell at loss. (is it 1 million loss?)

    But, if you are conservative, and keep your job, you can extend LTV from 20% to 80%, withdraw cash from property and buy another one during the crash?

  15. #2265
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    Yah, why not use rent in 1960s or 1970s...?

    We are talking about 2016 now and you are using figures 12 to 18 years ago.

    Median salaries have doubled to tripled from the period you are referring to. Population has "grown" by 1.5 million since 2004. Has housing increased by at least 500,000 units?

    Do you expect kopi to go back to 50 or 60c also?

    Quote Originally Posted by teddybear View Post
    Think you are too young to know???
    That was a time in 1998-2004, 7 long years!

    About the period that cbsh quoted about his niece buying a property in Aquarius by the park that can't find tenant.............

    Many people just don't learn their lesson (may be because they always look at things the way that newspapers publish or what other people tell them without using their brain to think and explore in many different angles, eg high "credit ratings" for people buy property with 40% LTV but has no cash to service the instalment? Sigh!)
    The three laws of Kelonguni:

    Where there is kelong, there is guni.
    No kelong no guni.
    More kelong = more guni.

  16. #2266
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    May be you can wait till 2018-2024, another period of property price crash and no tenant in lousy OCR locations like in 1998-2004 then you will know?
    Then you can hallucinate that 2016 got tenant so sure CRASH time still can get tenant?

    Price of foods, like GST and petrol taxes etc can go up, but that doesn't mean salaried workers won't get retrenched and become jobless and have ZERO income when CRASH time comes....

    And if you want to talk about 1960s, in 1967 LKY introduced a law that ensured all your land are almost worthless even up to 1980s! (because even in 1980s when Singapore government want your land you MUST sell to government at 1967 land price, e.g. in early 1980s FH land in OCR is like $200 psf or so (NOTE: PSF of land & not PSF PPR!) but they only paid you $0.60 psf for the land). How about applying that to your property and the land your property is sitting on now?

    Anyway, from what I read, because of that 1967 Compulsory Land Acquisition Act law, Singapore Government was able to buy FH land cheaply and significantly below market price and now owns 90% of land in Singapore (from about 40% in 1960s). However, now they only recycle these FH land and sell as 99-years leasehold land to you (so their ownership of land (aka FH land) will never drop)........

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelonguni View Post
    Yah, why not use rent in 1960s or 1970s...?

    We are talking about 2016 now and you are using figures 12 to 18 years ago.

    Median salaries have doubled to tripled from the period you are referring to. Population has "grown" by 1.5 million since 2004. Has housing increased by at least 500,000 units?

    Do you expect kopi to go back to 50 or 60c also?

  17. #2267
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    Yes Sir Teddy. So its really time to sell your CCR FH property since the future is so bleak and uncertain to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by teddybear View Post
    May be you can wait till 2018-2024, another period of property price crash and no tenant in lousy OCR locations like in 1998-2004 then you will know?
    Then you can hallucinate that 2016 got tenant so sure CRASH time still can get tenant?

    Price of foods, like GST and petrol taxes etc can go up, but that doesn't mean salaried workers won't get retrenched and become jobless and have ZERO income when CRASH time comes....

    And if you want to talk about 1960s, in 1967 LKY introduced a law that ensured all your land are almost worthless even up to 1980s! (because even in 1980s when Singapore government want your land you MUST sell to government at 1967 land price, e.g. in early 1980s FH land in OCR is like $200 psf or so (NOTE: PSF of land & not PSF PPR!) but they only paid you $0.60 psf for the land). How about applying that to your property and the land your property is sitting on now?

    Anyway, from what I read, because of that 1967 Compulsory Land Acquisition Act law, Singapore Government was able to buy FH land cheaply and significantly below market price and now owns 90% of land in Singapore (from about 40% in 1960s). However, now they only recycle these FH land and sell as 99-years leasehold land to you (so their ownership of land (aka FH land) will never drop)........
    The three laws of Kelonguni:

    Where there is kelong, there is guni.
    No kelong no guni.
    More kelong = more guni.

  18. #2268
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    Quote Originally Posted by cbsh38584 View Post
    ... If I am them with 400k to 600k cash, I will invest into a safe fixed income like Cheung Kong 5.125% perp bond or other
    ... btw this should be called this Sep, just a few months away, hope you know. you'd better prepare for a replacement if this is your strategy.

  19. #2269
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    Quote Originally Posted by gentlemanofleisure View Post
    I think teddy is referring to worst case scenario which I do consider and assign some probabilities.

    If shit hits the fence, you won't be able to find a tenant.
    - If you are employee, you would lose a job. You have to drawdown your saving for monthly expenditure. And you would still have to pay for mortgage. Double whammy.

    - If you are business owner, your operating cashflow will go negative very quickly. Banks will call on your capex loan since the valuation on your business has dropped. They want to be the first to call not the last holding on to paper. So you have to gather whatever cash you have to pay down loan and at the same time continue paying family expenditure and mortgages. Triple whammy.

    On the above scenario, even if your LTV is 20%, if you can't service debt, they will force you to sell. There is a mention on ST Business today on Private bank urging owner to sell at loss. (is it 1 million loss?)

    But, if you are conservative, and keep your job, you can extend LTV from 20% to 80%, withdraw cash from property and buy another one during the crash?

    And what if the world come to a end blah blah.. what u expect from the Bear right?
    “Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.”
    ― Martin Luther King, Jr.

    OUT WITH THE SHIT TRASH

    https://www.facebook.com/shutdowntrs

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    Credit ratings and what not are meaningless if you have no cash flow. Lol

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    There is far fewer condos then than now. There will be more competition now .
    Quote Originally Posted by teddybear View Post
    Think you are too young to know???
    That was a time in 1998-2004, 7 long years!

    About the period that cbsh quoted about his niece buying a property in Aquarius by the park that can't find tenant.............

    Many people just don't learn their lesson (may be because they always look at things the way that newspapers publish or what other people tell them without using their brain to think and explore in many different angles, eg high "credit ratings" for people buy property with 40% LTV but has no cash to service the instalment? Sigh!)

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    So more coffeeshops and types of coffee retail outlets in SG plus doubling of income, increase of population now means kopi will fall to 50c or 60c?

    That's great news to us all bro.

    Quote Originally Posted by DC33_2008 View Post
    There is far fewer condos then than now. There will be more competition now .
    The three laws of Kelonguni:

    Where there is kelong, there is guni.
    No kelong no guni.
    More kelong = more guni.

  23. #2273
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    Bro. Condos in 1998 is about $350-$500/psf in OCR in the 90s and now it is in $900 - $1200psf. How can coffee drop price with inflation, labour, rental?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelonguni View Post
    So more coffeeshops and types of coffee retail outlets in SG plus doubling of income, increase of population now means kopi will fall to 50c or 60c?

    That's great news to us all bro.

  24. #2274
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    Quote Originally Posted by teddybear View Post
    Why not?
    You used to be able to obtain car financing for LTV of 100% (and many car dealers can even arrange 120% LTV for you!)
    It is all a matter of government policies, previously they allowed banks to loan 100% for buying cars, not like it has never been done before..........

    If I am not wrong, buying HDB flat you still can get 90% LTV right?
    if u can ask why not for LTV 99% for privates on current economy, i got nothing to add on...

  25. #2275
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelonguni View Post
    Yes Sir Teddy. So its really time to sell your CCR FH property since the future is so bleak and uncertain to you.
    I would like to know too.

  26. #2276
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    When LTV is 10%, the debt service ratio is much lower than that for LTV 90%. The borrower for that LTV 10% must be an idiot who does not know how to monetarize his asset to even service the low financing cost.


    Quote Originally Posted by teddybear View Post
    Credit ratings?
    The credit ratings that resulted in subprime crisis?
    Who believe their traditional way of defining things????

    Face it, if you have no CASH, regardless of your LTV is 80%, 60%, 40%, 10%, and hence if you have no money to pay monthly instalments to the banks, your property will be auctioned off by the banks!
    So how do you define credit ratings for LTV 80% vs LTV of 10% that do not have CASH to pay instalments?

    As far as I see, holding huge liquid assets (including CASH) have the highest PERSONAL credit ratings (vs banks' credit ratings) in CRASH times (regardless of your LTV, even if your LTV is 10% also useless if you have no CASH on hand!)...........
    or simply put, if you have no CASH on hand, your PERSONAL credit ratings is ZERO!

    Come on, we all know all these credit ratings are meant to protect the banks, not the borrowers isn't it?

  27. #2277
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    hi all friends here
    I started this thread for bond...please turn back...
    don't go far....come back to the theme

  28. #2278
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laguna View Post
    hi all friends here
    I started this thread for bond...please turn back...
    don't go far....come back to the theme
    Agree. Let's not talk about properties in the bond thread.
    The three laws of Kelonguni:

    Where there is kelong, there is guni.
    No kelong no guni.
    More kelong = more guni.

  29. #2279
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    maybe some of the enthusiastic bros can start a new thread for discussing bond/equity etc vs property?

  30. #2280
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    Quote Originally Posted by chestnut View Post
    Bro proud owner, didn't know u retired in 2012... I retired in October 2014. Very shiok, catching up on my hobby.
    spent 2013 watching Korean serials... lol

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    By phantom_opera in forum Coffeeshop Talk
    Replies: 19
    -: 10-12-12, 22:34
  5. United Emerging Markets Bond Fund
    By irisng in forum Coffeeshop Talk
    Replies: 21
    -: 16-10-12, 08:20

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