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Thread: BOND THREAD

  1. #211
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    Muddy Waters stepped up its war of words with Olam with a provocative challenge to the company over its debt levels and a stinging attack on its boss Sunny Verghese.

    this is worry me.

    fierce & furious attack...


    what kind of document can sunny produce to counter?


    muddy waters already mentioned about aggressive accounting technique by olam .. this sux so much.

    I took the road less traveled by, and that has made all the difference.” - Robert Frost quotes (American poet, 1874-1963)

  2. #212
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    [quote=moneytalk]
    Quote Originally Posted by Laguna
    Olam bond prices sink to record low

    Investors waiting to see how battle with Muddy Waters will pan out


    Hey laguna,

    Can buy this bond if the price drop by another 10 to 20 cents?
    It is the risk that u have to consider. I know it is now a fire sale case.

    I did not follow the case closely. Now is whether OLAM will take up the challenge of getting a credit rating from Moody or S&P. The insiders are buying up the shares, but this will not help.

    OLAM so far, cannot give a very positive assurance as such, the bond price, especially the prep, have gone down even more yesterday.

    Now, reading the outstanding bonds that OLAM has, the only way to pay off the existing bond is thru new bonds, and I think, the new bonds will have to carry a rate of at least 10%, (ie junk bond rate) and this will add on to the financial burden of the company.

    I am not a fan of straight bonds at all. If you ask my opinion, I will not buy this bond, I am only taking calculated risk and this one the risk is at the higher side.

    If you are serious in it, don't take the prep bond, and look into the collateral first, consider those only with senior secure bonds.

    I will drop u a PM later when I look into their financial statement.

    BTW, look like the short sellers are not squaring their position. It seems to me that, these are very big short sellers, and have instrumented this for a few months.

  3. #213
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    [QUOTE=Laguna]
    Quote Originally Posted by moneytalk

    It is the risk that u have to consider. I know it is now a fire sale case.

    I did not follow the case closely. Now is whether OLAM will take up the challenge of getting a credit rating from Moody or S&P. The insiders are buying up the shares, but this will not help.

    OLAM so far, cannot give a very positive assurance as such, the bond price, especially the prep, have gone down even more yesterday.

    Now, reading the outstanding bonds that OLAM has, the only way to pay off the existing bond is thru new bonds, and I think, the new bonds will have to carry a rate of at least 10%, (ie junk bond rate) and this will add on to the financial burden of the company.

    I am not a fan of straight bonds at all. If you ask my opinion, I will not buy this bond, I am only taking calculated risk and this one the risk is at the higher side.

    If you are serious in it, don't take the prep bond, and look into the collateral first, consider those only with senior secure bonds.

    I will drop u a PM later when I look into their financial statement.

    BTW, look like the short sellers are not squaring their position. It seems to me that, these are very big short sellers, and have instrumented this for a few months.
    Thanks Laguna, I am not in a hurry to take position. Staying at the sideline to watch, and if yield is very high, like greater than 10%, then may toss with the idea of gambling on this bond. I did mention before that I don't like gambling.

  4. #214
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    [QUOTE=Laguna]
    Quote Originally Posted by moneytalk

    BTW, look like the short sellers are not squaring their position. It seems to me that, these are very big short sellers, and have instrumented this for a few months.
    Yup, very unwise to go against the big fishes.

  5. #215
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    One rule of thumb for me when going for straight bonds or perp bonds is to buy only companies who are not leveraged aggressively (SWIBER and OLAM IS OUT for ME). Buy bonds of companies who do not need the money. Their yields might be lower but it is precisely because they do not need the money. Market rates it as such.

    If you want to buy leverage companies, go for their stocks. It is more a bet on the growth phase of the company.

  6. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by focus
    One rule of thumb for me when going for straight bonds or perp bonds is to buy only companies who are not leveraged aggressively (SWIBER and OLAM IS OUT for ME). Buy bonds of companies who do not need the money. Their yields might be lower but it is precisely because they do not need the money. Market rates it as such.

    If you want to buy leverage companies, go for their stocks. It is more a bet on the growth phase of the company.
    Good and prudent advice. The other one to look at is the collateral.
    SWIBER was so hot and fully sold out within hours as the yield is very attractive.

  7. #217
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    Usually block of 250k for bonds? Is it good?

  8. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by DC33_2008
    Usually block of 250k for bonds? Is it good?
    that is one of the reasons why I don't like straight bonds.

  9. #219
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    Maybe bought earlier during lethman have been getting more than 5% return and their values have all gone up. Lucky did not buy OLAM but bougth another one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Laguna
    that is one of the reasons why I don't like straight bonds.

  10. #220
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    a crisis is brewing among sg listed companies.

    is this the beginning of something big ???

    time will tell

  11. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lovelle
    a crisis is brewing among sg listed companies.

    is this the beginning of something big ???

    time will tell
    what sort of crisis?

  12. #222
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    creative accounting ....

    repeat of s-chips counters we encounter in the past

  13. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lovelle
    creative accounting ....

    repeat of s-chips counters we encounter in the past
    I fail to understand the issue on the governance despite of all the so called independent directors and audit committee...

  14. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laguna
    I fail to understand the issue on the governance despite of all the so called independent directors and audit committee...
    in the past, all the ID was just a 'requirement' and act as a puppet to the paying co.

    SGX can implement many governance checks but it is only a passive checks and does not served any purpose if a company decided to go aggressive with their accounts.

  15. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lovelle
    creative accounting ....

    repeat of s-chips counters we encounter in the past
    i never know got another method of accounting which is acceptable in business reporting..

    I took the road less traveled by, and that has made all the difference.” - Robert Frost quotes (American poet, 1874-1963)

  16. #226
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    OLAM INTERNATIONAL ANNOUNCES PROPOSED US$750 MILLION
    RENOUNCEABLE UNDERWRITTEN BOND-CUM-WARRANT RIGHTS ISSUE

    100% of the issue to be sub-underwritten by Temasek

    http://olamonline.com/wp-content/fil...ightsIssue.pdf

    Retirement age going to be raised again?

  17. #227
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    wtf?

    going to raise money again?

    who will trust them now?

    and is this perpetual bond?
    I took the road less traveled by, and that has made all the difference.” - Robert Frost quotes (American poet, 1874-1963)

  18. #228
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    i read that olam share shoot back up to 1.69 c
    killing alot of short seller..
    I took the road less traveled by, and that has made all the difference.” - Robert Frost quotes (American poet, 1874-1963)

  19. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by roly8
    i read that olam share shoot back up to 1.69 c
    killing alot of short seller..
    they have grossly under-estimated the power of the institutional short sellers.

    IMO, the neatest way is let S&P has the debts graded, afterall, they are not paying the cost of the rating. This is the only way, IMHO, to come out clean.

  20. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laguna
    they have grossly under-estimated the power of the institutional short sellers.

    IMO, the neatest way is let S&P has the debts graded, afterall, they are not paying the cost of the rating. This is the only way, IMHO, to come out clean.
    Can't wash dirty linen in public lah

  21. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeaprp
    Can't wash dirty linen in public lah
    failed to understand why Tamasek lend them such a strong support.
    The only reason I can figure out, if they dont's give them support, then Tamasek will have a big chunk to write down, in term of bonds and shares

  22. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laguna
    failed to understand why Tamasek lend them such a strong support.
    The only reason I can figure out, if they dont's give them support, then Tamasek will have a big chunk to write down, in term of bonds and shares
    The head is wet , might as well take a bath

  23. #233
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    Another boo-boo. Temasek will need a major overhaul.
    Quote Originally Posted by Laguna
    failed to understand why Tamasek lend them such a strong support.
    The only reason I can figure out, if they dont's give them support, then Tamasek will have a big chunk to write down, in term of bonds and shares

  24. #234
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    Its a lesson to never short someone who has a deep pocket

  25. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by indomie
    Its a lesson to never short someone who has a deep pocket
    Muddy say that china protect fraudulent companies,
    that's y he give up on china link companies.
    May soon have to give up GLC companies here too.

  26. #236
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    This Olam company, is the bond under SGS?

  27. #237
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    muddy mud has its own motive la, muddy mud makes money from short selling la, a very unethical act if u ask me. so whatever muddy mud says it is for its own short selling gain.

    not vested.

  28. #238
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    I know nothing about Olam until now .
    Now also I only know a bit about the company after reading about it on wikipedia and that Temasek is one of its major investors.
    May I how will this company affect our economy?

  29. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by buttercarp
    I know nothing about Olam until now .
    Now also I only know a bit about the company after reading about it on wikipedia and that Temasek is one of its major investors.
    May I how will this company affect our economy?
    Little impact even if it is busted, is just a listed company.

  30. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeaprp
    Little impact even if it is busted, is just a listed company.
    Ok, good.
    Thanks.
    So Mr B's prediction about property is unlikely to come true.

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