CPF ups Min Sum to $148k and MinMedSave to $45.5k (increased of $11k in total)

[eng81157]

No. banks and cpf are the same. the only reason you can withdraw money anytime you want from banks is because the government/banks see no reason to restrict you yet. if the government/banks want to restrict you, they can pass some regulations, just like they did with cpf.
you can check whether the bank of cyprus' depositors can withdraw all their money. the short ans: no they can't.

if you put money in a bank, it is between you and the bank.
if you hold physical paper notes, it is between you and the singapore govt.

i'm not against having CPF restrictions entirely. i am happy to keep monies in the CPF till retirement. i am only missed that i can't take my money out (with the stupid annuity) or when i have someone changing the goalposts perpetually to deny me from enjoying the fruit of my labour. this is a pure violation of personal rights.

if the bank imposes the same restrictions, do you think people will want to deposit money with them?

now let's talk about the validity of the restrictions. is there statistics to show the proportion of retirees that squander away their CPF nest egg and turn to the state for help? no.

let's assume that the reasons are true, why can't it be a opt-in system, e.g. annuity? i am sure if a product is truly good, there won't be a lack of customers.

[hopeful]

This is an interesting point of view.

I once discuss with a US friend regarding their social security and medicial fees - foreigners actually thinks CPF is a great way to protect citizen from becoming a burden to the country.

Anyways, if I am a creditor and I "use" my own money to buy real estate. Why must I pay CPF interest?? I find this part insane.

the answer is: the money in CPF is not yours. it is only a claim.
when you use CPF money to buy real estate, you are using CPF board's money to buy real estate, not your "money" in CPF.

eg. you have $100k in cpf, and you use $30k to buy HDB.
in effect, you borrow $30k to buy the HDB, which then have to be repaid with interest. your claim of $100k in cpf is still there.

this is why when you have $1million deposit in bank and a $1million mortgage from the same bank. When the bank goes bankrupt, you only get $50k from deposit insurance BUT you still owe the bank $1million.
There will not be any offsetting the deposit with the mortgage.
that $1million deposit is a claim against the bank.

[eng81157]

the answer is: the money in CPF is not yours. it is only a claim.
when you use CPF money to buy real estate, you are using CPF board's money to buy real estate, not your "money" in CPF.

eg. you have $100k in cpf, and you use $30k to buy HDB.
in effect, you borrow $30k to buy the HDB, which then have to be repaid with interest. your claim of $100k in cpf is still there.

this is why when you have $1million deposit in bank and a $1million mortgage from the same bank. When the bank goes bankrupt, you only get $50k from deposit insurance BUT you still owe the bank $1million.
There will not be any offsetting the deposit with the mortgage.
that $1million deposit is a claim against the bank.

i've already explained, in the case of education funding that the loan is taken from an individual account, not CPF. taking my example further, if I decide to fund my kid's education and not expect repayment, can I then renounce my claim against CPF for the same amount of monies? No. CPF and the bank do not operate similarly. as for the bankruptcy, the depositor can still lay claims after the bank assets are liquidated.

secondly, i can choose whether to deposit with Bank A or B or none at all but for CPF, there isn't really a choice - which is the main bugbear for me.

[Cupcakes]

the answer is: the money in CPF is not yours. it is only a claim.
when you use CPF money to buy real estate, you are using CPF board's money to buy real estate, not your "money" in CPF.

eg. you have $100k in cpf, and you use $30k to buy HDB.
in effect, you borrow $30k to buy the HDB, which then have to be repaid with interest. your claim of $100k in cpf is still there.

this is why when you have $1million deposit in bank and a $1million mortgage from the same bank. When the bank goes bankrupt, you only get $50k from deposit insurance BUT you still owe the bank $1million.
There will not be any offsetting the deposit with the mortgage.
that $1million deposit is a claim against the bank.

Then if CPF goes bankrupt, how much can we claim?

[eng81157]

Then if CPF goes bankrupt, how much can we claim?

whoa, you will still stick around to claim? i would have jumped ship liao

[teddybear]

Good question. Bankrupt means nothing left to pay you right, what can you claim?

Then if CPF goes bankrupt, how much can we claim?

[Cupcakes]

whoa, you will still stick around to claim? i would have jumped ship liao

even if i jumped down i also want an answer

[Cupcakes]

Good question. Bankrupt means nothing left to pay you right, what can you claim?

yalor, bank money not my money, cpf money also not my money. That's sucks.

[eng81157]

Good question. Bankrupt means nothing left to pay you right, what can you claim?

can claim after the assets are liquidated, but have to take queue number

[eng81157]

even if i jumped down i also want an answer

CPF will give you a life jacket, no answers

[teddybear]

Is it any wonder people rather Convert money to properties, gold, or even keep in tin cans at home etc rather than leaving in the banks, let alone in CPF?

yalor, bank money not my money, cpf money also not my money. That's sucks.

[hopeful]

i've already explained, in the case of education funding that the loan is taken from an individual account, not CPF. taking my example further, if I decide to fund my kid's education and not expect repayment, can I then renounce my claim against CPF for the same amount of monies? No. CPF and the bank do not operate similarly. as for the bankruptcy, the depositor can still lay claims after the bank assets are liquidated.

secondly, i can choose whether to deposit with Bank A or B or none at all but for CPF, there isn't really a choice - which is the main bugbear for me.

You are mistaken in your belief that loan is taken from an individual account. If you have $1million deposit and you borrow $500k to buy house, do you need to pay interest on the $500k mortgage? What does the bank statement shows?

The key point is you cannot withdraw your CPF before retirement, so when you are funding your child's education, and since you cannot withdraw, you are borrowing money from CPF. that's why you cannot write off your children's debt. you are owing money to cpf.

CPF is a bank with many restrictions to prevent the deposits from being withdrawn. If i am not wrong, it is one of the anchor for financial stability in singapore, because there cannot ever be a bank run in CPF.
and if there is financial instablity, cpf can used its huge deposit base to backstop the singapore financial system.

And since it is a bank, it is a source of money creation in singapore. the deposit base needs to grow ever larger, hence higher and higher minimal sum. and That's why they make it very difficult to access and withdraw your cpf funds.

Can you withdraw your CPF funds in Singapore embassies when you are retired and already pass the minimum sums?

[eng81157]

You are mistaken in your belief that loan is taken from an individual account. If you have $1million deposit and you borrow $500k to buy house, do you need to pay interest on the $500k mortgage? What does the bank statement shows?

The key point is you cannot withdraw your CPF before retirement, so when you are funding your child's education, and since you cannot withdraw, you are borrowing money from CPF. that's why you cannot write off your children's debt. you are owing money to cpf.

CPF is a bank with many restrictions to prevent the deposits from being withdrawn. If i am not wrong, it is one of the anchor for financial stability in singapore, because there cannot ever be a bank run in CPF.
and if there is financial instablity, cpf can used its huge deposit base to backstop the singapore financial system.

And since it is a bank, it is a source of money creation in singapore. the deposit base needs to grow ever larger, hence higher and higher minimal sum. and That's why they make it very difficult to access and withdraw your cpf funds.

Can you withdraw your CPF funds in Singapore embassies when you are retired and already pass the minimum sums?

just check out CPF website, the sum taken is specific to individual accounts. in fact, it is a pre-requisite.

[hopeful]

just check out CPF website, the sum taken is specific to individual accounts. in fact, it is a pre-requisite.

can you withdraw more than 100% of your CPF account, for education, housing etc?
if can withdraw more than 100%, doesnt it defeat the stated purpose of retirement fund.
so sum taken out is specific to individual account in the sense that you cannot borrow more than your account.

[myfirstpc]

My parents had cpf RA of $30K+ after retirement 55, partial drawdown. Now in late 70s, the $30K is all gone. Made to pay annuity plan of $3k+ every year! 10yrs $30k++++. How to retire ? Annuity should hv opt in or opt out. And not compulsory opt plan A or plan B, or C etc.

[minority]

I don't really care. depend on one self to make money, I don't beg from people or government to feed me.

but the forced savings really good for the majority of the people. They don't save, indulge in gambling, womanizing, instant gratification when they are working.

agree. where is a investment that layman able to achieve 3%-4%? many donno wat to do just blindly buy instance which pay less than 2%.

Its very narrow minded not to see the value. without this forces saving those who never prepare for retirement one later fall into trouble who help them?

Anyway this is not new. many countries some some form or rather pension funds or forced saving to ensure the risk are taken care for the people.

[minority]

"i tot goal post moving dun affect retirees. - you are probably too young to see this.

:Goal post moving " in the sense that the legitimate withdrawal age is "moving from 55 to 62, then to 85 .... CPF annuity Life in drips and drap". Crap Crap Crap !!

Did'nt you hear Raymond Yap (age 66 ) at Hong LIm Park challenging the minitster on National TV to return him his migre CPF LIfe savings. He challenge the gahment to gurantee that he lived to 85 or longer like some old non-working MP still receiving citizens stipends ..What Raymund is saying is that the Gahment won't return him his money when he is still alive .

Talk cock lah.... its fund pooled together that would use to pay for medical and standby retirement. Also as a safety net.

U ask raymond to go to a insurance company ask for all his claim back at 1 time. see he can get a not.

[minority]

My parents had cpf RA of $30K+ after retirement 55, partial drawdown. Now in late 70s, the $30K is all gone. Made to pay annuity plan of $3k+ every year! 10yrs $30k++++. How to retire ? Annuity should hv opt in or opt out. And not compulsory opt plan A or plan B, or C etc.

Anunity still pay ur mum n dad $ wat. u make it sound like total lost. some people take 30K out donno wat to do. spend on china mei mei really gone in 1mth.

[Shanhz]

this is why when you have $1million deposit in bank and a $1million mortgage from the same bank. When the bank goes bankrupt, you only get $50k from deposit insurance BUT you still owe the bank $1million.
There will not be any offsetting the deposit with the mortgage.
that $1million deposit is a claim against the bank.

and the best part is, the reverse does work.

if you have deposit with the bank, the LO usually provides for bank to offset against your loan if you default.

[DKSG]

Anunity still pay ur mum n dad $ wat. u make it sound like total lost. some people take 30K out donno wat to do. spend on china mei mei really gone in 1mth.

Minority got a good point.

We should not forget that CPF pays decent interest from layman's view.

Where else can you get risk free 4% interest ?

Thats why nowadays, Office Boy choose to use cash to pay for instalments and leave the CPF intact to earn more interest, so that can retire earlier...

DKSG

[Shanhz]

Then if CPF goes bankrupt, how much can we claim?

if CPF goes bankrupt, you have to take your physical gold and run road. all your ppty already become paper asset leow.

[Shanhz]

Anunity still pay ur mum n dad $ wat. u make it sound like total lost. some people take 30K out donno wat to do. spend on china mei mei really gone in 1mth.

this is quite true also. but also, CPF goal post should not move so often. the point is, the fundamental beliefs behind many sgp policies are good. it is often the implementation that screws up.

[eng81157]

can you withdraw more than 100% of your CPF account, for education, housing etc?
if can withdraw more than 100%, doesnt it defeat the stated purpose of retirement fund.
so sum taken out is specific to individual account in the sense that you cannot borrow more than your account.

for bank loans, i don't need have my deposits exceeding the loan amount i take out.

secondly, i can do what i deem fit if it is truly my retirement fund eh? all these goalpost changing, isn't it the same as france, italy, spain all pushing back retirement age to deter pensioners from taking out their monies?

except in singapore, it's under the 'guise' of protecting the citizens. pttuuuii

[eng81157]

Anunity still pay ur mum n dad $ wat. u make it sound like total lost. some people take 30K out donno wat to do. spend on china mei mei really gone in 1mth.

so it's alright to penalize the majority for the sins of the minority?

[minority]

so it's alright to penalize the majority for the sins of the minority?

wat make u think the majority of the old people know wat to do with their $? after they take from cpf?

[eng81157]

wat make u think the majority of the old people know wat to do with their $? after they take from cpf?

then my question to you is

what makes you think that the majority of the elderly do not know what to do with their $?

[minority]

then my question to you is

what makes you think that the majority of the elderly do not know what to do with their $?

answer my question 1st duh....

[eng81157]

i'm not against having CPF restrictions entirely. i am happy to keep monies in the CPF till retirement. i am only missed that i can't take my money out (with the stupid annuity) or when i have someone changing the goalposts perpetually to deny me from enjoying the fruit of my labour. this is a pure violation of personal rights.

if the bank imposes the same restrictions, do you think people will want to deposit money with them?

now let's talk about the validity of the restrictions. is there statistics to show the proportion of retirees that squander away their CPF nest egg and turn to the state for help? no.

let's assume that the reasons are true, why can't it be a opt-in system, e.g. annuity? i am sure if a product is truly good, there won't be a lack of customers.

eh moron, LEARN TO READ and follow the thread.

the question was raised way before you decide to gatecrash. and please, stop contributing since your nonsense will only denigrate the debate

[minority]

eh moron, LEARN TO READ and follow the thread.

the question was raised way before you decide to gatecrash. and please, stop contributing since your nonsense will only denigrate the debate

U are a degenerate . Statistics? U don't read wan bao? Go geylang n look how's many uncle there at the kopi Tiam. Even if have statistics u can understand? U will say bluff 1.

So ? Duh!!!!!

[eng81157]

U are a degenerate . Statistics? U don't read wan bao? Go geylang n look how's many uncle there at the kopi Tiam. Even if have statistics u can understand? U will say bluff 1.

So ? Duh!!!!!

so these uncle who hang out at kopi tiam in geylang represent the entire population???

please do yourself a favor, shut up