CPF ups Min Sum to $148k and MinMedSave to $45.5k (increased of $11k in total)

[Allthepies]

Hmmm, within Singapore itself, a lot of people have been scammed too. All workers have been scammed to provide good life for the bosses.

[eng81157]

The Kum 1 wan to see stats.. u have stats bo. if not say u bluff 1. I personally also know few who have lost $ to China MM or worst 60 yrs old spend all his $ in China MM and then sign credit cards to rack up $200K debt before the children have to step in to bail him out and cut up all the credit cards etc.

eh moron, no one is asking CPF to be abolished. we are debating why can't there be an opt-in/out system?

using your example, why do we have 2 IRs then??! show me the stats that the elderly can't manage their finances

[eng81157]

Yes, you get what i mean. If people asked politely like eng81157, i would respond. those with an attitude, i dont respond and just let them win.
As for losses to china mei mei and other reasons, that is a smoke screen. What is a bank worst fear? that their deposit base is getting smaller.

you see the govt has always used the term forced savings. Now where do you save. in a bank.
I was reading TREmeritus the other day, the article by prof balding about CPF rates being much lower as compared to GIC, TH returns and how cpf holders are being taken for a ride. Now I am not as qualified academically as prof balding, nor as smart.
Let's say I deposit money in DBS, i earn 0.75% interest. DBS earn 10% profit.
Now can DBS depositors demand DBS bank to share that 10% profit with all the depositors? The answer is a big NO.
That's why I find it humorous that cpf depositors are supposed to get higher returns just because GIC and TH are getting higher returns.

I cannot give definitive evidence that cpf is a bank. however....
If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

a platypus?

[Regulators]

why don't you say your parents scam you into this world as well? talking nonsense

Hmmm, within Singapore itself, a lot of people have been scammed too. All workers have been scammed to provide good life for the bosses.

[heehee]

I agreed that CPF should have opt-out system for people who know how to manage their money. Eg, by taking my money out of CPF & invest freely on my own, I can get 10% or more return a year, so I have more money when retired. However, that CPF life only pays you like 2% return, & ends up all you people are short-changed & destined to be poor without being able to grow your own money fast enough.

For too long, Singaporeans have been treated like idiots who don't know how to manage their money, esp like minority. I suggest gov should change CPF so that for people like minority, they can put all their fortune into CPF so that gov will help them to take care of their finances, while we can take ours out. Didn't somebody say we need to be responsible for our own finances & no problem to have IRs? Why suddenly we become cannot take care of our own finances & need CPF?

eh moron, no one is asking CPF to be abolished. we are debating why can't there be an opt-in/out system?

using your example, why do we have 2 IRs then??! show me the stats that the elderly can't manage their finances

[Regulators]

Singaporeans at the May Day Protest Rally at Hong Lim Park.

9/05/2011

Is the CPF scheme turning into a scam?

It was a pillar of our social infrastructure. It gave the people a sense of assuredness, peace of mind, and a great feeling of security. That was our CPF.*Over the years the changes introduced to the CPF scheme have gradually transformed this institution of the people’s savings into an institution of grievances and frustration. It all started many years ago when some economic whiz kid discovered that there was too much money in the CPF waiting to be had. Anyone with a bright idea could lay his hands on this people’s treasure that have been laid aside to earn pittance from the interest rates.Now you understand why HDB flats are affordable and why the CPF savings are no longer enough for retirement? The policy of pricing HDB flats according to affordability is like pricing HDB flats according to how much the people have in their CPF savings. Brilliant. And the rest is history.This logic can be applied to the ever increasing medical costs. The CPF has been turned into a vehicle to enrich the medical profession. You have plenty of money in the Medisave or in medical insurance. Thus you can pay for the increasing medical fees. You can afford it, like it or not, your saving will be taken away from you in advance to fund the medical industry. And you may not need it at all. Medical fees and housing prices will keep going up as they are affordable, because there are money in the CPF savings.Did anyone really scheme to use the CPF for his own gambling habit, to fund his big billion dollar bets? Did anyone think that in such big gambles he could reap millions in bonuses when luck is with him, and simply ignore the losses as the losses came from other people’s money, not his own pocket? No need to pay back. The CPF contributors would be made to patch up the holes somehow through the shifting of goal posts or more schemes. I really hope that no one really thinks that the CPF money is for them to play. It is theft of the people’s hard earned money in all disguises. The line differentiating gambling from investments is too fine to make a difference.And I am very uncomfortable for anyone, or any economist, to lump the people’s hard earned money as the country’s reserves. It is the people’s money and not anyone else’s reserves. Once the reserves tag is glued on the people’s money, the one holding the key to the reserves may think that it is his for the taking or for his own schemes of things. I find it not only immoral but down right dangerous.No one can argue about putting aside some of our income as savings. But there are other important things to consider about savings. For those who can afford to, by all means save as much as you can. There are many out there who cannot afford to save. Saving is like eating half a bowl of rice or keeping the stomach half empty, to put some money aside. Forcing people to go hungry is not helping the people but ensuring them a slow death. Help the poor is to make provisions from other sources of revenue to allow them to have their bowl of rice and not go half hungry and not go half hungry by taking away the rice.*And there is a time to say providing for the rainy day is enough. The insurance agents will tell you that there is never enough in the insurance that you bought. Hmmm, reminds me of the reserves in the NKF as well as the reserves in the country’s vault. How much savings will be considered enough? Never enough. But the pragmatic reasoning will say up to a point, one needs not keep stuffing into the tin can for the tomorrow that may never come. There must be a sense of proportion.This brings to a point about savings by the oldies. At 60, 70, or 80, as long as one is self employed, one must continue to put money into the Medisave. What kind of stupidity or daylight robbery is that? At these ages, everyday is a bonus. If one is economically productive, one should be allowed to spend his keeps while he still can. Forcing grandpas to save! Economically active grandpas would have the comfort of his savings being left untouched. To add to more savings is the logic of an idiot, or robbing the oldies. Now why would people want to rob the oldies? Wicked isn’t it? No, they say they are helping the oldies so that they have more money to pay the hospitals when needed.There are many things that make the CPF smells foul. When the noble objective of a scheme is twisted to serve less noble objectives, or warped objectives, all schemes will turn foul. There is no need for oldies to keep savings. There is no moral reason to deprive the oldies from their hard earned savings to enjoy their twilight years even if it is for the use of god.Now what is the real reason to compel the old uncles and aunties to keep saving when they may hand in their identity cards anytime? Is it mercy or merciless?We have a very regimented institutions forcing people to save and save and while making it very difficult for the people to get back their hard earned money. On the other hand we have institutions like the HDB and the hospitals who are trying to take your money because you have money in your CPF. They price their products and services according to affordability and market forces, or to take every cent from you. It is like a candle burning on both ends.I have a better CPF scheme. Everyone must contribute 80% of his income to the CPF. Then he will have money to buy affordable flats, and money for all the medical bills, and for retirement. No more worries liao.

[lionhill]

I do not understand why can't some investment savvy people be more magnanimous?

Those people should understand every responsible goverment will set up a retirement system for her people. As a public system, its responsibility is to look after the interest of most people, not everyone. From this aspect, I think CPF has played a successful role. Providing an opt-out option will make the system unnecessarily complex. One may think he himself is investment savvy. But in fact, it is these people who lose everything.

Those investment savvy one should have already made big money, why do they keep nagging and nagging on this peanut portion. Can't they just take CPF as a charity to keep the whole society in harmony? Anyhow, the goverment will return the fund back gradually, right?

[Regulators]

you are very wrong, the cpf works only for the very small minority of Singaporeans who can't plan their finances, not majority.

I do not understand why can't some investment savvy people be more magnanimous?

Those people should understand every responsible goverment will set up a retirement system for her people. As a public system, its responsibility is to look after the interest of most people, not everyone. From this aspect, I think CPF has played a successful role. Providing an opt-out option will make the system unnecessarily complex. One may think he himself is investment savvy. But in fact, it is these people who lose everything.

Those investment savvy one should have already made big money, why do they keep nagging and nagging on this peanut portion. Can't they just take CPF as a charity to keep the whole society in harmony? Anyhow, the goverment will return the fund back gradually, right?

[phantom_opera]

is cpf still enough consider

min sum up from 123k in 2010 to 148k now while contribution ceiling still at 5k

employer contrib still at 16pc not fully restored to 20pc

[Dragonfly]

is cpf still enough consider

min sum up from 123k in 2010 to 148k now while contribution ceiling still at 5k

employer contrib still at 16pc not fully restored to 20pc

Based on phantom's calculation, the min sum increase 6-6.5% yearly.keep going up at this rate, I wonder when will we see our $. I think by the time my children reach 55...62 or 70...min sum is 1m or more.
But I understand if we passed on, the $ will go to our next of kin.

[minority]

CPF is a good thing for those under 55 for the reason you said.

After 60, 10 out of 10 men/women (including you ) would not live to see their CPF money taken out to be spend in the way they like (eg daily expenses, for their remaining day, mind you not even for coffin money ?? ).

I say CPF money should be return in FULL immediately after 70. No one live to 85 with this stress.. many died not from hunger but worry and unhappiness.. Forget about the CPF Life annuity.. Crab crab .. pian lao nang..

Is CPF still good for you after 60, think about it ??

Well CPF is given back over time why not given back? u want to take back all 1 time then its effectively a run on the system. unless u are willing to take zero interest on CPF?

[minority]

cpf is a scam in itself. the majority of the country seems to be made up of dumbos like you that need the govt to plan your finances n all pappies who subscribe to cpf must be dumbos too.

lol... how is it a scam ? u can use it to buy shares. u can use it to pay for ur house. ur kids education etc. ? scam?

so all the similar systems in all the other countries are also consider a scam? when the people no $ go back kpkb at the state to take care. u get tax more to support them. then that I would say is more of a scam !

[minority]

Let me just add that Here we are NOT A WELFARE State. ChengHU don't take care of elderly unlike the western country Even though the country seem" rich enough" to do so. So the more the state have no right to deprive you of your rightful own money when their mentality is you "died your own business".

peng u. u want jeng hu take care of u? u want to pay 45% tax? and many of such countries with these schemes are considering if its sustainable.

[minority]

it is luck, not scam. we happen to have a stupid neighbor that gave up a precious piece of land n we made good the foundation that raffles laid for us.

really? without hard work good planing of the fore fathers u think this piece of swam will become today? we have oil? we have commodity? wat do we have naturally endowed to us? Nothing! its all hard work.

[minority]

eh moron, no one is asking CPF to be abolished. we are debating why can't there be an opt-in/out system?

using your example, why do we have 2 IRs then??! show me the stats that the elderly can't manage their finances

So little people. how to opt in opt out. if we have 65M people sure u can opt in opt out. when CPF started we have ~1.5M people how to scale if marjority dont opt in.

use ur grey matter.. opp.. u bo.

[phantom_opera]

Based on phantom's calculation, the min sum increase 6-6.5% yearly.keep going up at this rate, I wonder when will we see our $. I think by the time my children reach 55...62 or 70...min sum is 1m or more.
But I understand if we passed on, the $ will go to our next of kin.

many ppl kpkb because they think if they get the money out, they can outperform CPF 4% compound return (e.g. by buying shares / properties), this is basically based on past performance of property/share in Singapore @7-9%pa, but what if in next 20y, low return is the norm .. then they will probably appreciate the safety of CPF SA

to the very rich, it is peanut to them
to the very poor & young middle class, not much cpf
so most likely those kpkb one is sandwich class that is like earning 100-150kpa but when they reach 55, not much can be withdrawn due to ever increasing min sum for MA/SA

another point I would like to highlight is long term return for endowment policy is normally about 5-5.5%pa in Singapore in the past ... given then CPF has much bigger scale / lower cost, they should at least perform on par with insurance companies

[Regulators]

how can using cpf to buy a house even be considered a benefit? where is the logic when one has to pay backdated interest when putting money back into cpf after selling the house? if govt can allow people to gamble their money away in stocks using cpf, what kind of rubbish safety net is that for the people?

lol... how is it a scam ? u can use it to buy shares. u can use it to pay for ur house. ur kids education etc. ? scam?

so all the similar systems in all the other countries are also consider a scam? when the people no $ go back kpkb at the state to take care. u get tax more to support them. then that I would say is more of a scam !

[minority]

I agreed that CPF should have opt-out system for people who know how to manage their money. Eg, by taking my money out of CPF & invest freely on my own, I can get 10% or more return a year, so I have more money when retired. However, that CPF life only pays you like 2% return, & ends up all you people are short-changed & destined to be poor without being able to grow your own money fast enough.

For too long, Singaporeans have been treated like idiots who don't know how to manage their money, esp like minority. I suggest gov should change CPF so that for people like minority, they can put all their fortune into CPF so that gov will help them to take care of their finances, while we can take ours out. Didn't somebody say we need to be responsible for our own finances & no problem to have IRs? Why suddenly we become cannot take care of our own finances & need CPF?

So u take out loose all ur $ so u will be waiting for state to help u? well maybe u wont but there will be people kpkb. u can also invest ur CPF. wat u say cannot. talk cock.

[Regulators]

go n read your history books, what was lky doing when Singapore first became a thriving port. Singapore was already marked for success from raffles days, so please don't give me the crap that pap built everything from scratch.

really? without hard work good planing of the fore fathers u think this piece of swam will become today? we have oil? we have commodity? wat do we have naturally endowed to us? Nothing! its all hard work.

[phantom_opera]

assume we are at 40y old, another 15y b4 55y

@4% from 148k ... ag age of 55, CPF SA min sum is 269k
@5% from 148k ... at age of 55, CPF SA min sum is 312k

[minority]

how can using cpf to buy a house even be considered a benefit? where is the logic when one has to pay backdated interest when putting money back into cpf after selling the house? if govt can allow people to gamble their money away in stocks using cpf, what kind of rubbish safety net is that for the people?

Well dont let u invest people like heee KPKB.. well tats why some part of CPF cannot use. like special acct and medisafe. a % of it allow those who like thos say he expert like heeee can make 10%! those who act hero loose % at least they never loose their special or medisafe! not 100% lost.

Those who no balls dont invest they get 3-4% beating bank interest. why not good. its options for people.

Why buy home not benifit? some people cant save a single cent! this they are forced to safe. some people over extend themselves ah long come take their %,. CPF ah long cannot touch. bank cannot touch. who say no good. its a safety net for those who are not able to plan for themselves. For those who can they can still go buy shares or invest it. and not all investor can make $ like so call expert hheeee. but who knows. when hhheee lost $ the will say knn jeng hu let him gamble the $ away! jeng hu never regulate!

but when he make he kpkb say knn never let him use all he would have made a bigger killing!

[minority]

go n read your history books, what was lky doing when Singapore first became a thriving port. Singapore was already marked for success from raffles days, so please don't give me the crap that pap built everything from scratch.

Did I say PAP? wtf.. use ur eyes. I say fore fathers. we never take over this place all laid with gold.

u want to talk abt government. ok so when brits withdraw. no army to defend ourselves. then Malaysia bully us kick us out want us to die. so wat ? suddenly gold flow out of our land? people do work.

Pls go re read the history book not story book.

[minority]

you are very wrong, the cpf works only for the very small minority of Singaporeans who can't plan their finances, not majority.

Lol out loud u mean majority can plan. I don't think so. I feel many cannot plan. I have seen so many cases of failure to plan. I only see a few handful of successful ones.

I agree with that those who made it. why kpkb abt the cpf treat it as charity. its loose chain to them anyway. and still get back. treat it as mthly kopi $.

[Regulators]

only a brainwashed idiot like you would believe cpf helps you to save. why can't govt provide option to opt out for the financially prudent n leave financial idiots like you to park your money in cpf?

Lol out loud u mean majority can plan. I don't think so. I feel many cannot plan. I have seen so many cases of failure to plan. I only see a few handful of successful ones.

I agree with that those who made it. why kpkb abt the cpf treat it as charity. its loose chain to them anyway. and still get back. treat it as mthly kopi $.

[Regulators]

did I say buying home not a benefit? I said why is using cpf to buy home a benefit?

Well dont let u invest people like heee KPKB.. well tats why some part of CPF cannot use. like special acct and medisafe. a % of it allow those who like thos say he expert like heeee can make 10%! those who act hero loose % at least they never loose their special or medisafe! not 100% lost.

Those who no balls dont invest they get 3-4% beating bank interest. why not good. its options for people.

Why buy home not benifit? some people cant save a single cent! this they are forced to safe. some people over extend themselves ah long come take their %,. CPF ah long cannot touch. bank cannot touch. who say no good. its a safety net for those who are not able to plan for themselves. For those who can they can still go buy shares or invest it. and not all investor can make $ like so call expert hheeee. but who knows. when hhheee lost $ the will say knn jeng hu let him gamble the $ away! jeng hu never regulate!

but when he make he kpkb say knn never let him use all he would have made a bigger killing!

[teddybear]

Don't talk kok lah! Many cannot plan? You might as well say many don't know how to vote the correct MP & govt, so their vote will be forfeited and the govt will help them to vote?

Many are complaining that they have no freedom to deal with their CPF money! CPF is different from social security, and CPF is our own money, we get back how much we put in, different from social security (where you can get more than you put in!). Therefore, it is clear: That people must have say in how they want to do with it instead of being tied up by govt policy. If the return in CPF is so poor, then govt will have to let people take out their own money! Since Singapore has no social safety net, and if people choose to take out their CPF money, they die their problem, nobody will blame govt.

Lol out loud u mean majority can plan. I don't think so. I feel many cannot plan. I have seen so many cases of failure to plan. I only see a few handful of successful ones.

I agree with that those who made it. why kpkb abt the cpf treat it as charity. its loose chain to them anyway. and still get back. treat it as mthly kopi $.

[amk]

why can't govt provide option to opt out for the financially prudent n leave .... to park your money in cpf?

Because gov needs the financially prudent ones to subsidize the non prudent ones. Yes you are supposed to sacrifice.

And if you are already financially prudent, you will have no problem dealing with the various restrictions wrt CPF. You are even smart enough to profit from it. Why complain ?

Ppl have to realize we need some sort of pension system as a country. We all pay the same 20% social tax as Europe. Europeans dun see a cent of their social contibution. We do . We have a claim , as aptly put by hopeful, and we can even make use of it, despite all the restrictions and such. CPF is not perfect, but I think it is far better than 20% straight tax.

If you think everyone should fend for himself anyway and there is no need for any contribution at all, well all I can say is, this is not what modern society is supposed to function.

[teddybear]

Why does the CPF min sum keep increasing faster than their reported inflation rate?

Very simple, because of GST!

As such, I pity those who has NO INCOME but yet need to PAY GST TAX! That is a NO EMPATHY TAX! Simple as that!

Has any country implemented GST and the GST rate remain the same forever? The answer is obvious! So OLD PEOPLE, you deserve it for voting those people in to implement GST for your own benefits!

[teddybear]

Don't think what you said is right.
1) There is no subsidy because what you put into CPF is what you take out (+that migre interest rate which you can get much higher outside of CPF), the rich don't subsidize the poor, not like social security where the poor can take out much more than what they put in.

2) Singapore system is not a pension system, not like other countries where the poor will benefit from such a pension system, they can take out more, while the rich contribute much more but can take out much less.

3) Singapore has no social safety net, isn't that as good as everyone fend for themselves? So this is not a modern society should be right? But that is exactly what Singapore is.

4) People put in so much money into CPF, get tied up for so many years, but get so little return! While they take your cheap source of funding to earn 6-8%! Therefore, to convince people to put money into CPF, there need to be some changes to the system to make fair for them, at least reward them for tying up their money for so long! Otherwise allow them to opt out because many can fend for themselves and get better return. Otherwise, all these rumours about CPF being cheap source of funding for them will never end, and indeed they make it looks like that is the case.

Because gov needs the financially prudent ones to subsidize the non prudent ones. Yes you are supposed to sacrifice.

And if you are already financially prudent, you will have no problem dealing with the various restrictions wrt CPF. You are even smart enough to profit from it. Why complain ?

Ppl have to realize we need some sort of pension system as a country. We all pay the same 20% social tax as Europe. Europeans dun see a cent of their social contibution. We do . We have a claim , as aptly put by hopeful, and we can even make use of it, despite all the restrictions and such. CPF is not perfect, but I think it is far better than 20% straight tax.

If you think everyone should fend for himself anyway and there is no need for any contribution at all, well all I can say is, this is not what modern society is supposed to function.

[hyenergix]

Don't think what you said is right.
1) There is no subsidy because what you put into CPF is what you take out (+that migre interest rate which you can get much higher outside of CPF), the rich don't subsidize the poor, not like social security where the poor can take out much more than what they put in.

2) Singapore system is not a pension system, not like other countries where the poor will benefit from such a pension system, they can take out more, while the rich contribute much more but can take out much less.

3) Singapore has no social safety net, isn't that as good as everyone fend for themselves? So this is not a modern society should be right? But that is exactly what Singapore is.

4) People put in so much money into CPF, get tied up for so many years, but get so little return! While they take your cheap source of funding to earn 6-8%! Therefore, to convince people to put money into CPF, there need to be some changes to the system to make fair for them, at least reward them for tying up their money for so long! Otherwise allow them to opt out because many can fend for themselves and get better return. Otherwise, all these rumours about CPF being cheap source of funding for them will never end, and indeed they make it looks like that is the case.

I agree with you. Bulk of the CPF is for HDB for most people, but the government actually sets the HDB price. The HDB sets the price floor for EC and pte properties, which in turn affects the land price and revenue from land sales. Effectively the CPF didn't leak out much from the government's finance. Anyone with clearer perspective can correct me.