Owners in the West beware!!

[lajia]

whether a FH or LH, imagine, if you buy this FH be it condo or landed and then sell in 5 years time, does it really matter? the pricing depends on sentiment at that time, growth story of the location and rental prospective and so on...
the answer is pretty clear, there are many scenario but not necessary u don't gain from it.

if u buy and keep more than 10-15 years, yes, then probably there is some effect on pricing, but still it depends. So, don't be too sure! If not LH project will never sell well....

We don't have to be concerned with all those you mentioned, just need to remember 1 thing: 99 years leasehold means that you will never benefit from the 1.1% depreciation every year!
If you want to save on property tax and interests, don't buy property, pay rent loh!

[teddybear]

What is the difference between owning 2 leaseholds and 2 freeholds? Not much difference now, but this will definitely change 20 years from now, when there are abundance supply of 99 years leasehold having less than 60 years lease left...........................

I support freehold if the price is right. Don't get me wrong.

But I also can understand if owning 2 leaseholds allow one to be absolved from paying either rent or mortgage.

[Patrickstar]

LH are selling well because the horizon of these investors is short term. No agent marketing a LH project will project returns for a project 20yrs down the road. A property is worth as much as the land it sits on and to me 99yr leasehold land in a prime area could easily be worth more than fh land in far flung outskirt areas so in this sense, we can't underestimate LH. If comparing fh n lh pty in the same area, i think the choice is obvious what to buy. Just look at southaven 1 n 2, these two projects are the best comparison for fh/999yr n 99yr LH.

whether a FH or LH, imagine, if you buy this FH be it condo or landed and then sell in 5 years time, does it really matter? the pricing depends on sentiment at that time, growth story of the location and rental prospective and so on...
the answer is pretty clear, there are many scenario but not necessary u don't gain from it.

if u buy and keep more than 10-15 years, yes, then probably there is some effect on pricing, but still it depends. So, don't be too sure! If not LH project will never sell well....

[lajia]

you already have your answer....time horizon is the key...not FH or LH, if I know I want to sell in 5yrs time, why should I fork out additional 20-30% (in the same location) which is an opportunity cost! in the same time period, imagine you buy FH at 2mil, sell at 2.3mil, or u buy LH at 1.7mil, sell at 2mil, so? the gap between FH or LH could be more than what I have illustrated here. pay extra for what?...... LH selling well, got ppl buy means got ppl sell...do you want to buy a FH project which is not selling well??? or a LH project which is selling well??? again, time horizon is the key...

LH are selling well because the horizon of these investors is short term. No agent marketing a LH project will project returns for a project 20yrs down the road. A property is worth as much as the land it sits on and to me 99yr leasehold land in a prime area could easily be worth more than fh land in far flung outskirt areas so in this sense, we can't underestimate LH. If comparing fh n lh pty in the same area, i think the choice is obvious what to buy. Just look at southaven 1 n 2, these two projects are the best comparison for fh/999yr n 99yr LH.

[walkthetiger]

you already have your answer....time horizon is the key...not FH or LH, if I know I want to sell in 5yrs time, why should I fork out additional 20-30% (in the same location) which is an opportunity cost! LH selling well, got ppl buy means got ppl sell...do you want to buy a FH project which is not selling well??? or a LH project which is selling well??? again, time horizon is the key...

It is the "bull run" that help to push all price a new level, and it happens by some chances only. It happened just a few times in sg properties history...Without it, capital gain is very very slow.

How many times in sg properties history, do you see rental yield was like the recently few years ago....

[Patrickstar]

Time horizon is over simplistic. Many factors come into play. Never buy a pty in an area where prices are at resistance or past resistance levels with other ptys still lagging behind. Market conditions like whether it is an impending bear or bull market is also important. The worst kind of buying is paying for a LH pty at past resistance level at the start of a bear run. The greatest difference between caspian n j gateway is in the pty cycle, caspian was priced at the bottom during the financial crisis just before the bull run n j gateway was launched at the end of the bull run at the start of the bear run.

you already have your answer....time horizon is the key...not FH or LH, if I know I want to sell in 5yrs time, why should I fork out additional 20-30% (in the same location) which is an opportunity cost! in the same time period, imagine you buy FH at 2mil, sell at 2.3mil, or u buy LH at 1.7mil, sell at 2mil, so? the gap between FH or LH could be more than what I have illustrated here. pay extra for what?...... LH selling well, got ppl buy means got ppl sell...do you want to buy a FH project which is not selling well??? or a LH project which is selling well??? again, time horizon is the key...

[lajia]

property cycle is not by chance....that's all I want to say. diff ppl diff views. happy investing...

It is the "bull run" that help to push all price a new level, and it happens by some chances only. It happened just a few times in sg properties history...Without it, capital gain is very very slow.

How many times in sg properties history, do you see rental yield was like the recently few years ago....

[lajia]

didn't I say many factors which can affect the property price and time horizon is key? anyway, my view is shared...cheers
can you look forward? no I don't think you can...what make you different from looking at history to predict future? end of bull run? its part of a cycle but which part of it right now, don't be too sure....only history can give you this answer when you look back at the chart. most ppl are like that. that's why top earners form the top 20%. , they see differently as well.

Time horizon is over simplistic. Many factors come into play. Never buy a pty in an area where prices are at resistance or past resistance levels with other ptys still lagging behind. Market conditions like whether it is an impending bear or bull market is also important. The worst kind of buying is paying for a LH pty at past resistance level at the start of a bear run. The greatest difference between caspian n j gateway is in the pty cycle, caspian was priced at the bottom during the financial crisis just before the bull run n j gateway was launched at the end of the bull run at the start of the bear run.

[Patrickstar]

Do you know what it means by buying low and selling high? Sounds simple right? But i can tell you not many people understand this. Human nature is such that they will be more inclined to buy at peak pricing thinking it will go higher as opposed to buying at the bottom as they always feel downward pressure is greater. Why would people want to pay $1700 psf for a pty in an area when surrounding projects are averaging below $1k psf? Just compare those flocking to the caspian showflat at launch n those who flock to j gateway showflat at launch n you understand human psychology better. Btw top earners like warren buffet are always buying low n selling high coz buying at the lowest point requires more guts than buying at the peak.

didn't I say many factors which can affect the property price and time horizon is key? anyway, my view is shared...cheers
can you look forward? no I don't think you can...what make you different from looking at history to predict future? end of bull run? its part of a cycle but which part of it right now, don't be too sure....only history can give you this answer when you look back at the chart. most ppl are like that. that's why top earners form the top 20%. , they see differently as well.

[walkthetiger]

property cycle is not by chance....that's all I want to say. diff ppl diff views. happy investing...

Agree too, if you understand how it happens...you will probably know how to spot it as well

[lajia]

It's a pity that u still do not get it, but I'm going to say it once more....u only know that u buy at the peak when u look back. Just like when I miss the boat on caspian with your kind of thinking. While a 1100sft 3 bedded cost about 700k plus minus for eg, at the same time a 10min walk down one mrt station, the Parc oasis only about 400k plus minus. Why buy almost 80% more? eg only for illustration...
At that time, u could be thinking, shit I am buying at the peak....but now 2014 when u look back, what happen to your peak then? This doesn't alway happen this way, but as I said, only history can proof u right or wrong. Don't keep harping on this 1700psf, broaden your horizon. Have u not experience enough? Time will tell, if u have not invest, then bless those who have guts to do It! By the way, I don't even have chance to view it due to the crowd on first day, and anyway, I also don't hv the guts to do it haha......bless them...

Do you know what it means by buying low and selling high? Sounds simple right? But i can tell you not many people understand this. Human nature is such that they will be more inclined to buy at peak pricing thinking it will go higher as opposed to buying at the bottom as they always feel downward pressure is greater. Why would people want to pay $1700 psf for a pty in an area when surrounding projects are averaging below $1k psf? Just compare those flocking to the caspian showflat at launch n those who flock to j gateway showflat at launch n you understand human psychology better. Btw top earners like warren buffet are always buying low n selling high coz buying at the lowest point requires more guts than buying at the peak.

[EBD]

property cycle is not by chance....that's all I want to say. diff ppl diff views. happy investing...

agree - when you see taxi uncle queueing overnight you know it's time to get out - or at least not to commit to anything new.

Further opportunities coming for those with patience and guts.

[Kelonguni]

FH or LH, 能捉老鼠的猫，就是好猫。

Both have their pros and cons. Depends on what you use them for.

[Kelonguni]

agree - when you see taxi uncle queueing overnight you know it's time to get out - or at least not to commit to anything new.

Further opportunities coming for those with patience and guts.

Honestly have not been seeing "taxi uncle" in the queue for some time since 2011. How can they afford it now???

[Patrickstar]

When i say buying at the peak, i was't talking on hindsight. You obviously don't understand the meaning of resistance level. When average transacted prices in an area is less than $1k psf and you pay $700psf more for a project there, that project is selling at way past resistance level which is extremely high risk. From a pty investment perspective, what is the sense in paying $700psf more for a pty in an area when all other ptys costing $700psf less in the area will rise as well when pty mkt goes up?

It's a pity that u still do not get it, but I'm going to say it once more....u only know that u buy at the peak when u look back. Just like when I miss the boat on caspian with your kind of thinking. While a 1100sft 3 bedded cost about 700k plus minus for eg, at the same time a 10min walk down one mrt station, the Parc oasis only about 400k plus minus. Why buy almost 80% more? eg only for illustration...
At that time, u could be thinking, shit I am buying at the peak....but now 2014 when u look back, what happen to your peak then? This doesn't alway happen this way, but as I said, only history can proof u right or wrong. Don't keep harping on this 1700psf, broaden your horizon. Have u not experience enough? Time will tell, if u have not invest, then bless those who have guts to do It! By the way, I don't even have chance to view it due to the crowd on first day, and anyway, I also don't hv the guts to do it haha......bless them...

[lajia]

Like................

FH or LH, 能捉老鼠的猫，就是好猫。

Both have their pros and cons. Depends on what you use them for.

[teddybear]

LH projects sell because of quantum being absolutely cheaper, just like this is why now some CCR private properties $PSF even cheaper than OCR!

As if everybody thinks they can sell their 99years LH property in 5 years time so LH is fine? That seems to be the mentality of almost all LH property owners! So now, once everybody wake up to the idea and don't want to be the "carrot head" to buy your property once they are >20 and especially 30 years old, who you going to sell to?

How about if you are stuck for 30 years, every time time economy is bad can't sell, when economy starts to be good and your property prices start to recover govt give you CMs, so you get stuck another 30 years. By the time 40 years later, you try to sell your 99LH but nobody want to buy because lease less than 70 years, so you get stuck again.

You pass to your child and before your child can even die in the house, viola, 99 years time up and your child have to be homeless as he needs to return to the govt! Think for your child before you even splunge >$1.5m on a 3BR 99years LH property NOW that will become $0 in your child's life time!

whether a FH or LH, imagine, if you buy this FH be it condo or landed and then sell in 5 years time, does it really matter? the pricing depends on sentiment at that time, growth story of the location and rental prospective and so on...
the answer is pretty clear, there are many scenario but not necessary u don't gain from it.

if u buy and keep more than 10-15 years, yes, then probably there is some effect on pricing, but still it depends. So, don't be too sure! If not LH project will never sell well....

[Kelonguni]

Even if you buy leasehold when you are 30 and have a child at 35, the child will have to live to 90 years to see the lease expire. Shouldn't he or she be able to get a hdb or another few leasehold?

Do you think your grandchild will want to live in your century old mansion?

LH projects sell because of quantum being absolutely cheaper, just like this is why now some CCR private properties $PSF even cheaper than OCR!

As if everybody thinks they can sell their 99years LH property in 5 years time so LH is fine? That seems to be the mentality of almost all LH property owners! So now, once everybody wake up to the idea and don't want to be the "carrot head" to buy your property once they are >20 and especially 30 years old, who you going to sell to?

How about if you are stuck for 30 years, every time time economy is bad can't sell, when economy starts to be good and your property prices start to recover govt give you CMs, so you get stuck another 30 years. By the time 40 years later, you try to sell your 99LH but nobody want to buy because lease less than 70 years, so you get stuck again.

You pass to your child and before your child can even die in the house, viola, 99 years time up and your child have to be homeless as he needs to return to the govt! Think for your child before you even splunge >$1.5m on a 3BR 99years LH property NOW that will become $0 in your child's life time!

[lajia]

you are really a clown in disguise living in your own world. I don't need to go into it any more as just want to share my view. enough said...

LH projects sell because of quantum being absolutely cheaper, just like this is why now some CCR private properties $PSF even cheaper than OCR!

As if everybody thinks they can sell their 99years LH property in 5 years time so LH is fine? That seems to be the mentality of almost all LH property owners! So now, once everybody wake up to the idea and don't want to be the "carrot head" to buy your property once they are >20 and especially 30 years old, who you going to sell to?

How about if you are stuck for 30 years, every time time economy is bad can't sell, when economy starts to be good and your property prices start to recover govt give you CMs, so you get stuck another 30 years. By the time 40 years later, you try to sell your 99LH but nobody want to buy because lease less than 70 years, so you get stuck again.

You pass to your child and before your child can even die in the house, viola, 99 years time up and your child have to be homeless as he needs to return to the govt! Think for your child before you even splunge >$1.5m on a 3BR 99years LH property NOW that will become $0 in your child's life time!

[teddybear]

Why pay so much for a 99years LH NOW when you need to pay again another inflation-adjusted figure for another 99 years LH 90+ years later? It is not like you need to pay a lot more for a FH vs 99 years LH, just 15-20% more only now! The gap will likely increase a lot more in future when sellers realize they are being short-changed for selling for such small premium for their FH vs a 99 years LH. FH properties will also just get lesser and lesser.................

My grandchild will definitely not have any issue with century old mansion when they get it for free from me and will be worth a lot more by then despite being century old already,
BUT your grandchild will definitely be cursing you if you leave them a 99 years FH property that they will get evicted when your 99 years LH property's lease ended and they are still alive in this world.................................... They will be complaining why you so short-sighted and cannot just pay 15-20% more to let them own that property forever so that they can pass down again to their child and again their grandchild and all of them many many generations later thanking you for leaving behind a legacy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Even if you buy leasehold when you are 30 and have a child at 35, the child will have to live to 90 years to see the lease expire. Shouldn't he or she be able to get a hdb or another few leasehold?

Do you think your grandchild will want to live in your century old mansion?

[teddybear]

Clown?
Think people here have brain to know who is the real clown here........
When you have no good reason to rebuke, you start labelling other people "clown"............

Let me tell you, the real clown is the one dreaming in their own world, thinking that their 99 years leasehold properties still will have value >30 years down the road and dreaming that there will always be carrot-head to buy over their aging and lease running-out 99 years leasehold properties................

you are really a clown in disguise living in your own world. I don't need to go into it any more as just want to share my view. enough said...

LH projects sell because of quantum being absolutely cheaper, just like this is why now some CCR private properties $PSF even cheaper than OCR!

As if everybody thinks they can sell their 99years LH property in 5 years time so LH is fine? That seems to be the mentality of almost all LH property owners! So now, once everybody wake up to the idea and don't want to be the "carrot head" to buy your property once they are >20 and especially 30 years old, who you going to sell to?

How about if you are stuck for 30 years, every time time economy is bad can't sell, when economy starts to be good and your property prices start to recover govt give you CMs, so you get stuck another 30 years. By the time 40 years later, you try to sell your 99LH but nobody want to buy because lease less than 70 years, so you get stuck again.

You pass to your child and before your child can even die in the house, viola, 99 years time up and your child have to be homeless as he needs to return to the govt! Think for your child before you even splunge >$1.5m on a 3BR 99years LH property NOW that will become $0 in your child's life time!

[teddybear]

Correction:
BUT your grandchild will definitely be cursing you if you leave them a 99 years LH property that they will get evicted when your 99 years LH property's lease ended and they are still alive in this world....................................

Why pay so much for a 99years LH NOW when you need to pay again another inflation-adjusted figure for another 99 years LH 90+ years later? It is not like you need to pay a lot more for a FH vs 99 years LH, just 15-20% more only now! The gap will likely increase a lot more in future when sellers realize they are being short-changed for selling for such small premium for their FH vs a 99 years LH. FH properties will also just get lesser and lesser.................

My grandchild will definitely not have any issue with century old mansion when they get it for free from me and will be worth a lot more by then despite being century old already,
BUT your grandchild will definitely be cursing you if you leave them a 99 years FH property that they will get evicted when your 99 years LH property's lease ended and they are still alive in this world.................................... They will be complaining why you so short-sighted and cannot just pay 15-20% more to let them own that property forever so that they can pass down again to their child and again their grandchild and all of them many many generations later thanking you for leaving behind a legacy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Patrickstar]

Moral is buy LH when there is no succession planning and buy FH if you need to pass down assets to future generation.

[Kelonguni]

Correction:
BUT your grandchild will definitely be cursing you if you leave them a 99 years LH property that they will get evicted when your 99 years LH property's lease ended and they are still alive in this world....................................

I am talking about LIVE in the century old mansion... Most likely it will just be sold and cashed out.

But I believe in training the children to fish for their own mansion. My parents gave me none. Archachon parents also. My father almost sold the only HDB we had in the family at one point. Because of the lack, we are able to achieve more in life subsequently. I have a mix of FH and LH. More important is the price point, rental yield and location. My opinion only.

Give a man a mansion, and you spoil him for life. Teach a man how to hold his own, and he will do well wherever he goes.

[lajia]

ya, leave all your FH for your children and grandchildren to sell and cash out. see who is cursing during that time...hahaaa...this is not clown then what? so it is still within your lifespan 30yrs if u are lucky or when you just gone, they sell so that you leave in peace maybe.......who is holding LH for more than 30yrs as investment. If you can find one in this forum, I say maybe your point is valid for that moment. For own stay, then is a different call. And in the same district, can you point to me that the gap of LH and FH is narrowing? Compare same location la. why don't u just compare Iskandar and Jurong? This one not clown then what? look at your rubbish....wa kao...I shouldn't be saying more. pardon me.

Why pay so much for a 99years LH NOW when you need to pay again another inflation-adjusted figure for another 99 years LH 90+ years later? It is not like you need to pay a lot more for a FH vs 99 years LH, just 15-20% more only now! The gap will likely increase a lot more in future when sellers realize they are being short-changed for selling for such small premium for their FH vs a 99 years LH. FH properties will also just get lesser and lesser.................

My grandchild will definitely not have any issue with century old mansion when they get it for free from me and will be worth a lot more by then despite being century old already,
BUT your grandchild will definitely be cursing you if you leave them a 99 years FH property that they will get evicted when your 99 years LH property's lease ended and they are still alive in this world.................................... They will be complaining why you so short-sighted and cannot just pay 15-20% more to let them own that property forever so that they can pass down again to their child and again their grandchild and all of them many many generations later thanking you for leaving behind a legacy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[teddybear]

Theory is always theory, nice to hear or preach but many don't practise it............

Look around at all those influential and/or rich and you will know what I mean..........

Don't even need to look overseas, just look in Singapore also many examples which do not practise what you say, and they also prove that what you said is not always true because many of these 2nd generations went on to scale greater heights and created a legacy much much greater than what their fathers have achieved despite being given the mansion/fish to start with, and they may not have achieved what they have now without that old mansion/fish to begin with.......................

I am talking about LIVE in the century old mansion... Most likely it will just be sold and cashed out.

But I believe in training the children to fish for their own mansion. My parents gave me none. Archachon parents also. My father almost sold the only HDB we had in the family at one point. Because of the lack, we are able to achieve more in life subsequently. I have a mix of FH and LH. More important is the price point, rental yield and location. My opinion only.

Give a man a mansion, and you spoil him for life. Teach a man how to hold his own, and he will do well wherever he goes.

[lajia]

like!
this is the right teaching.....let them earn and appreciate things in life. but not many ppl see it this way especially those born with silver spoon. BUt they have forgotten that they come with nothing and go with nothing....
wrong teaching leads to only one thing....up wrong below also wrong.

I am talking about LIVE in the century old mansion... Most likely it will just be sold and cashed out.

But I believe in training the children to fish for their own mansion. My parents gave me none. Archachon parents also. My father almost sold the only HDB we had in the family at one point. Because of the lack, we are able to achieve more in life subsequently. I have a mix of FH and LH. More important is the price point, rental yield and location. My opinion only.

Give a man a mansion, and you spoil him for life. Teach a man how to hold his own, and he will do well wherever he goes.

[DC33_2008]

I agree with your idea. Are you going to donate all your assets to charitable organization when you passes on?

I am talking about LIVE in the century old mansion... Most likely it will just be sold and cashed out.

But I believe in training the children to fish for their own mansion. My parents gave me none. Archachon parents also. My father almost sold the only HDB we had in the family at one point. Because of the lack, we are able to achieve more in life subsequently. I have a mix of FH and LH. More important is the price point, rental yield and location. My opinion only.

Give a man a mansion, and you spoil him for life. Teach a man how to hold his own, and he will do well wherever he goes.

[Patrickstar]

Those arguing whether to invest in FH n LH are missing out on one vital aspect, ownership. In FH condos owners collectively own the piece of land forever, in 99yr LH, the govt leases you the land for only 99yr.

[Jem]

Moral is buy LH when there is no succession planning and buy FH if you need to pass down assets to future generation.

Agree. If u have strong Asian thinking u will want to leave loads for ur generation to come. I always tell my girl she's getting nothing from me once she turns 21. In fact I am looking for her to bring me to holidays etc then as I have done so for her while she's dependent on me~