Owners in the West beware!!

[Jem]

Theory is always theory, nice to hear or preach but many don't practise it............

Look around at all those influential and/or rich and you will know what I mean..........

Don't even need to look overseas, just look in Singapore also many examples which do not practise what you say, and they also prove that what you said is not always true because many of these 2nd generations went on to scale greater heights and created a legacy much much greater than what their fathers have achieved despite being given the mansion/fish to start with, and they may not have achieved what they have now without that old mansion/fish to begin with.......................

I have to agree with you for the fact that what u r doing is in fact the norm here. My friends work very hard to provide for their kids. They skimped on themselves but doesn't blink on any amount spent on the kids. I get chided when I told some that when I go to a restaurant I dun tell my gal she can order whatever she likes from the menu.

Sure the mainstream is like that but I don't see why I should succumb to mainstream pressure. If every parent stop behaving that competitive our education system will never become stressful.

I don't intend to leave things for my daughter that's why I concentrate on living now - having a balance between quality of life and having just enough down the road for my own retirement in future.

LH or FH has it's own value depending on what your goals/needs are.

[Maxim1]

Moral is buy LH when there is no succession planning and buy FH if you need to pass down assets to future generation.

The issue is not succession planning but rather capital preservation.

What should a buyer who is shopping around buy *now* in this market? Scarcity and lack of supply points towards buying FH now as the premium for a freehold equivalent in many areas is narrow. When market is flooded with supply of LH, FH should weather the storm better in the short, medium and long term.

[Kelonguni]

I agree with your idea. Are you going to donate all your assets to charitable organization when you passes on?

For me the main purpose in investing is to ensure I don't be a burden to kids when old. Most probably might need to cash out one or two when older due to sickness or parents sickness. Children education as well. Who knows how long we can live anyway?

Maybe if still have leftover when I go then I pass some to the next generation and donate some. Right now is just too insecure to say if one can get there.

More importantly, cover my own insurance and bills and children education. My children should neither feel entitled nor complain about anything left for them.

[Kelonguni]

The issue is not succession planning but rather capital preservation.

What should a buyer who is shopping around buy *now* in this market? Scarcity and lack of supply points towards buying FH now as the premium for a freehold equivalent in many areas is narrow. When market is flooded with supply of LH, FH should weather the storm better in the short, medium and long term.

Some focus on the financial value, some focus on other aspects of values, and some focus on value creation within value.

Not all see eye to eye. Neither do we have to. It's great that there is diversity of views.

[walkthetiger]

Theory is always theory, nice to hear or preach but many don't practise it............

Look around at all those influential and/or rich and you will know what I mean..........

Don't even need to look overseas, just look in Singapore also many examples which do not practise what you say, and they also prove that what you said is not always true because many of these 2nd generations went on to scale greater heights and created a legacy much much greater than what their fathers have achieved despite being given the mansion/fish to start with, and they may not have achieved what they have now without that old mansion/fish to begin with.......................

If a sale man want to sells me two products, one will last for 1 yr, another will last for 2 years. I will go after 2 years.
I will buy FH for sure, if the price is right, coz it has a better selling point. Even if myself and children don't need to hold that house for over 100 years, that FH status is a choice for my family's ownership.

[Patrickstar]

I think buying FH or LH is not just about property values. People are prepared to pay top dollar for LH properties these days as the location gives them a better lifestyle. A lot of FH ptys lose out to LH in terms of location n convenience but of course there are always exceptions.

If a sale man want to sells me two products, one will last for 1 yr, another will last for 2 years. I will go after 2 years.
I will buy FH for sure, if the price is right, coz it has a better selling point. Even if myself and children don't need to hold that house for over 100 years, that FH status is a choice for my family's ownership.

[walkthetiger]

I think buying FH or LH is not just about property values. People are prepared to pay top dollar for LH properties these days as the location gives them a better lifestyle. A lot of FH ptys lose out to LH in terms of location n convenience but of course there are always exceptions.

If those mentioned prime locations come with FH, I will surely l go for FH as a better sell point. But it will surely be at a incredible high price, because there aren’t much around, coz the gov needs those prime land back to them for re-development from time to time...

[Patrickstar]

Duplicate post

If a sale man want to sells me two products, one will last for 1 yr, another will last for 2 years. I will go after 2 years.
I will buy FH for sure, if the price is right, coz it has a better selling point. Even if myself and children don't need to hold that house for over 100 years, that FH status is a choice for my family's ownership.

[Jem]

The issue is not succession planning but rather capital preservation.

What should a buyer who is shopping around buy *now* in this market? Scarcity and lack of supply points towards buying FH now as the premium for a freehold equivalent in many areas is narrow. When market is flooded with supply of LH, FH should weather the storm better in the short, medium and long term.

On hindsight, the FH may not weather the storm better in a really long term especially inherently case of an collective sale. If your LH development has passed say 50 years most owners will probably be happy with little resistance to agree to a collective sale.
Whereas for a FH property even if the property is really older and not that well maintained there'll be plenty of people who will rather just hold on to their units. In the long term the FH condo estate being not well maintained may not really be valued more then its newer LH neighbour?

[Jem]

Some focus on the financial value, some focus on other aspects of values, and some focus on value creation within value.

Not all see eye to eye. Neither do we have to. It's great that there is diversity of views.

Like! That's what a forum is for mah. Discussing and sharing differing views and opinion

[Allthepies]

U paid an upfront premium for the freehold unit...so there is really not much differences between leasehold and freehold...

i.e. for the same price u get a larger leasehold unit than freehold --- higher quality of life?

i.e. for the same price u get a better location for leasehold than freehold --- higher quality of life?

[Patrickstar]

At the end of the day, it boils down to whether people are comfortable remaining as tenants or they prefer to be owners. LH owners are all tenants and FH owners truly have ownership of the land n pty they own.

[lajia]

If it makes u feel better to pay higher for that longer ownership, then just do it.....and by the way, if govt want to take back for redevelopment, LH or FH doesn't make any difference.... so u call this truly Owned?? Anyway different prospective....let it be

At the end of the day, it boils down to whether people are comfortable remaining as tenants or they prefer to be owners. LH owners are all tenants and FH owners truly have ownership of the land n pty they own.

[Ringo33]

Those arguing whether to invest in FH n LH are missing out on one vital aspect, ownership. In FH condos owners collectively own the piece of land forever, in 99yr LH, the govt leases you the land for only 99yr.

Stop fantasizing and romanticizing of your FH theory.

If FH property is about owning it FOREVER, then technically speaking NO ONE will be selling FH property in the market.

I think the most important aspect in investment property is that, Tenant doesnt care if its FH or LH property, when comes to property its all about location.

PS. Dont let the troll fool you into believe that Location is all about CCR.

[Ringo33]

CCR like Orchard at only S$2000+ psf where got high risk?
Actually hor, those OCR >$1200 psf is very very high risk indeed, especially they are just 99 years lease hold only! Every year gone, depreciate by 1.1%...

Correction. CCR property already selling >$4000psf.

Perhaps you been living in the wrong side of CCR for too long.

[Ringo33]

When interest rates rise, i feel ocr owners will be squeezed the most n have a greater tendency to drop prices. High psf ocr condos in the suburbs like j gateway with no solid price support from other condos around will suffer badly.

Stop talking nonsense in this forum.

Property around JLD are supported by strong rental demand and high rental yield. And this are FACTS which one can look at transaction record. So if interest rate rises, landlord will still be above water and they will have no problem servicing their mortgage.

On the other hand, if you look at CCR property that is above $3m in quantum and even landed property most are commanding very lousy rental yield of <2%. And again, this is supported by FACTS which one can check transaction record.


If you want to talk about what you "feel" its better that you also back up with FACTS rather than telling us fairytale

[Ringo33]

What numbers would you like.

Would you like to know my purchase price, condos, sqft, purchase date, floor level, recent transactions. You first. Since day one you haven't even got the guts to admit you bought JGateway.

Your "facts and numbers" you can't produce because there has been zero resale of J Gateway - not that there is any evidence you could even afford to buy one. If you were that dumb, confirm and chop lost capital since then as last year has been solid downtrend everywhere. Everywhere except between your ears.

EBD, stop dancing around in circles because it will make you look ridicules


Best Street Worst Street property 101?

Buying the worst unit in River Valley is better than buying the BEST unit in Jurong?

Thoss interested can go read EBD property 101 on page 69 of this thread.

Show us the numbers to back up what you said instead of ALL FART and NO SHIT (EBD)

[henryhk]

Stop talking nonsense in this forum.

Property around JLD are supported by strong rental demand and high rental yield. And this are FACTS which one can look at transaction record. So if interest rate rises, landlord will still be above water and they will have no problem servicing their mortgage.

On the other hand, if you look at CCR property that is above $3m in quantum and even landed property most are commanding very lousy rental yield of <2%. And again, this is supported by FACTS which one can check transaction record.


If you want to talk about what you "feel" its better that you also back up with FACTS rather than telling us fairytale

I also agree high rental demand for Jurong gateway, based on my knowledge of the rental currently and many OCR property owners are not so bad, because they can hold even with drop of 20% , don't forget we only loan 60% for 2nd unit , after garment imposed the measures 3 years ago😃

[Patrickstar]

Did you say "high rental yield"...ROTFL....I am still recovering from your hilarious interpretation of rental yield by using 2009 property price to determine 2014 rental yield. Please tell us what rental yield you expect to get for your J gateway unit that you deem as high. Do us a favour by not cracking us up again

Stop talking nonsense in this forum.

Property around JLD are supported by strong rental demand and high rental yield. And this are FACTS which one can look at transaction record. So if interest rate rises, landlord will still be above water and they will have no problem servicing their mortgage.

On the other hand, if you look at CCR property that is above $3m in quantum and even landed property most are commanding very lousy rental yield of <2%. And again, this is supported by FACTS which one can check transaction record.


If you want to talk about what you "feel" its better that you also back up with FACTS rather than telling us fairytale

[CondoWE]

Did you say "high rental yield"...ROTFL....I am still recovering from your hilarious interpretation of rental yield by using 2009 property price to determine 2014 rental yield. Please tell us what rental yield you expect to get for your J gateway unit that you deem as high. Do us a favour by not cracking us up again

haha..in 2009-Jul2014, my west side 3rms pc rented out at 3.8K and just renewed on Jul at 4.2K with 10% increment so do you expect JG rental to be lower than mine with the MRT station just a stone's throw away ? Think deeper...bro..... !!!

[teddybear]

Please do not make it like the government will short-change you when they take back your land for redevelopment!!! They will pay you market rates!

The market rate of a 99 years Leasehold is that of a new 99-years Leasehold property * (number of years of lease left / 99) and so obviously that 99 years Leasehold property has significantly much lower market value!
And obviously, property prices is a matter of supply and demand. With government taking back FH for redevelopment and turning them into leasehold, you will expect FH properties to become less and less 100 years from now while 99 years LH properties will keep increasing! The law of supply and demand tells us that as time goes on, the premium of FH properties vs 99-years LH properties will definitely increase!

If it makes u feel better to pay higher for that longer ownership, then just do it.....and by the way, if govt want to take back for redevelopment, LH or FH doesn't make any difference.... so u call this truly Owned?? Anyway different prospective....let it be

[teddybear]

Talk of collective sale? Think again!
If you have a 99-year Leasehold properties with 50 years left, you think developers will buy from you at a new 99-years LH property price? No right! Since the developers need to top up another 49 years lease, the more expensive a new 99-years LH property costs, the less they will pay for your 50 years remaining lease!

The above further re-enforces the fact that better buy FH if you can afford it because now the premium is just 15-20% only! I won't be surprise that 100 years from now, the premium of a FH property could be >100% of a 99-years LH property!

On hindsight, the FH may not weather the storm better in a really long term especially inherently case of an collective sale. If your LH development has passed say 50 years most owners will probably be happy with little resistance to agree to a collective sale.
Whereas for a FH property even if the property is really older and not that well maintained there'll be plenty of people who will rather just hold on to their units. In the long term the FH condo estate being not well maintained may not really be valued more then its newer LH neighbour?

[teddybear]

Ringo, you must be fantasizing again.....
Your JLD all full of 99 years leasehold properties only!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What a poor thing!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wait till neck long long for your property prices to increase and then you have to hand over FREE OF CHARGE to the government!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tell you honestly, you being a 99-years leasehold property owner is just a tenant for 99-years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is all, and that is a real fact and the truth, nothing but the truth!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Stop fantasizing and romanticizing of your FH theory.

If FH property is about owning it FOREVER, then technically speaking NO ONE will be selling FH property in the market.

I think the most important aspect in investment property is that, Tenant doesnt care if its FH or LH property, when comes to property its all about location.

PS. Dont let the troll fool you into believe that Location is all about CCR.

[teddybear]

No wonder you will pay >$1700 psf for JGateway since you keep thinking CCR property all selling at >$4000 psf! Oh gosh! Won't want to argue with a stupid idiot! Ok ok, let's just say we all agree with you that JGateway is worth >$3000 psf! Now CCR properties should be worth >$9000 psf! Hip hip hooray!

Correction. CCR property already selling >$4000psf.

Perhaps you been living in the wrong side of CCR for too long.

[Ringo33]

No wonder you will pay >$1700 psf for JGateway since you keep thinking CCR property all selling at >$4000 psf! Oh gosh! Won't want to argue with a stupid idiot! Ok ok, let's just say we all agree with you that JGateway is worth >$3000 psf! Now CCR properties should be worth >$9000 psf! Hip hip hooray!

Its known FACT at some CCR properties (not even mickey mouse size) are selling above $4000psf. while in D22, the highest price for a MICKEY MOUSE (<500sqft) apartment is $1700psf. And its important to know that at Caspian, some MM apartment are renting out at $3000 per month and if factor that into the rental yield equation, $1700psf will still get your pretty decent rent yield of >3%.

As for those who own some old and run down CCR apartment, they will be lucky if they can find a tenant because there are some 2500sqft CCR apartment, only asking for 4.5k per month and even then they have problem getting tenant. Pathetic isnt it?

Anyone who have a brain that is capable of logical thinking will know that what teddybear is trying to do here is compare apple to orange

[Ringo33]

Ringo, you must be fantasizing again.....
Your JLD all full of 99 years leasehold properties only!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What a poor thing!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wait till neck long long for your property prices to increase and then you have to hand over FREE OF CHARGE to the government!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tell you honestly, you being a 99-years leasehold property owner is just a tenant for 99-years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is all, and that is a real fact and the truth, nothing but the truth!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Stop fantasizing on your run down FH CCR apartment because such apartments have already past its "USED BY" date and thats the reason why so many of them are struggling to find tenant.

Its a known fact that no apartment in Singapore will last forever even if its FH or LH, eventually it will be sold and be tear down for rebuilding. So unless if you are Peter Lim who own the entire block of apartment sitting on FH land, if not, you are just a caretaker of the FH apartment which will eventually be sold.

So please stop all that BS about FH being FOREVER because its NOT.

[Ringo33]

Talk of collective sale? Think again!
If you have a 99-year Leasehold properties with 50 years left, you think developers will buy from you at a new 99-years LH property price? No right! Since the developers need to top up another 49 years lease, the more expensive a new 99-years LH property costs, the less they will pay for your 50 years remaining lease!

The above further re-enforces the fact that better buy FH if you can afford it because now the premium is just 15-20% only! I won't be surprise that 100 years from now, the premium of a FH property could be >100% of a 99-years LH property!

Teddybear, please stop talking nonsense lah because we all know there are no chance to make money from en bloc

a) Owners of property with en bloc potential will not sell, nor are they going to sell below the en bloc value.

b) There are many very old FH property that has got no potential for en bloc due to lousy location.

c) Human have got limited life span, how many years can you afford to live in a run down apartment and wait for en bloc to happen?

I believe someone like you will be able to share with us how frustrated it is to see how MM and OCR investors are making money while you are still kpkbing about OCR selling at CCR price.

Life is short, learn to be nimble and dont get yourself so fixated by FH or CCR because you cant bring your FH property to your grave.

If you still insist on trying to impress us, then perhaps you can name us 5 FH property that will go en bloc within the next 5 years.

[Patrickstar]

Between 2009 and 2014 your rental increase only a measly 12%. Compare that to the percentage increase in your property value between 2009 and 2014, i am pretty certain rental yield has fallen. Only when you tell me your pty value increase less than 12% then rental yield would have increased. Also you should compare average rental yield of your project in 2009 n 2014 which gives a more accurate assessment of rental yield for your condo. I hope you are not becoming another Ringo.

haha..in 2009-Jul2014, my west side 3rms pc rented out at 3.8K and just renewed on Jul at 4.2K with 10% increment so do you expect JG rental to be lower than mine with the MRT station just a stone's throw away ? Think deeper...bro..... !!!

[Ringo33]

Between 2009 and 2014 your rental increase only a measly 12%. Compare that to the percentage increase in your property value between 2009 and 2014, i am pretty certain rental yield has fallen. Only when you tell me your pty value increase less than 12% then rental yield would have increased. Also you should compare average rental yield of your project in 2009 n 2014 which gives a more accurate assessment of rental yield for your condo. I hope you are not becoming another Ringo.

whats the point of telling us the JLD rental is bad when you cant even tell us somewhere that is better?

Please tell us why you should believe you are not just a noisy empty vessel

[Jem]

Talk of collective sale? Think again!
If you have a 99-year Leasehold properties with 50 years left, you think developers will buy from you at a new 99-years LH property price? No right! Since the developers need to top up another 49 years lease, the more expensive a new 99-years LH property costs, the less they will pay for your 50 years remaining lease!

The above further re-enforces the fact that better buy FH if you can afford it because now the premium is just 15-20% only! I won't be surprise that 100 years from now, the premium of a FH property could be >100% of a 99-years LH property!

Buying FH is almost an always safer bet. I know many people who will only buy FH. My goals and requirement are somewhat different and err I dun care what's gonna happen 100 years later cuz I'll be in heaven and hopefully I wun be ard for more than 35 to 40 years. My take is FH or LH each has its values and there's many other factors that adds to its consideration.

U should be happy that not everyone think like you mah. If the majority only wants to buy or invest in FH the FH prices would have sky rocketed ordi by now and it would have been twice harder for you to build ur legacy portfolio to leave for your many generations to come.