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Thread: Cairnhill Mansions in collective sale bid

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    Default Cairnhill Mansions in collective sale bid

    http://www.straitstimes.com/premium/...e-bid-20141023

    Cairnhill Mansions in collective sale bid

    Published on Oct 23, 2014 2:14 AM

    By Chia Yan Min


    THE owners of an ageing District 9 residential property are launching their fourth attempt at a collective sale.

    Cairnhill Mansions' 61 owners will begin the process next June with the aim of getting the requisite 80 per cent backing before the option expires a year later.

    The 50-year-old freehold building, which sits on a prime site near Goodwood Park Hotel, has 60 apartments and a penthouse.

    The last attempt at a collective sale coincided with the rollout of property market cooling measures in 2011.

    The owners failed to find a buyer at the reserve price of $361.5 million, or about $2,308 per sq ft of potential gross floor area. Earlier collective sale attempts were in 2005 and 2007.

    Sale committee chairman Charles Ho said the building's ageing infrastructure is costly to maintain and can be a hazard: A resident was recently trapped in the lift for four hours.

    "Old electrical wirings are hazards. Carpark shortages, inefficient use of space, water seepage during heavy rain are all inconveniences. Replacement costs are high and have to be funded by owners. Even if the place is upgraded, there is a limit to how much it can be brought up to date," he added.

    Retiree Andy Lim, 65, who has lived at Cairnhill Mansions for about 20 years, said its antiquated design features can be inconvenient. "The lift lobby is on the second floor, instead of the ground floor," said Mr Lim, adding that he plans to buy a smaller unit in the same area if the en-bloc sale is successful.

    Developers are constantly on the lookout for prime freehold sites and collective sales are one of the few ways to acquire such a parcel, said Ms Elaine Chow, executive director and head of research at Chestertons Singapore.

    However, "given the lacklustre luxury residential market, developers will not be able to bid as aggressively as before".

    Cairnhill Mansions will have to be priced at around $2,000 per sq ft for redevelopment to be viable, added Ms Chow.

    If the sale is successful and the land redeveloped, new homes on the site would go for about $2,500 per sq ft, given the sluggish high-end residential market, said R'ST Research director Ong Kah Seng.

    Based on that selling price, developers would be willing to pay about $1,500 per sq ft per plot ratio to the building's owners.

    Mr Ong added that owners who are "sceptical about how they can make use of the sale proceeds to find a replacement home that is value for money, and of fairly good standards" might hesitate to agree to a collective sale at this price.

    Separately, property consultancy CBRE announced yesterday the public tender for Fragrance Court's collective sale, with a reserve price of $70 million or $1,235 psf per plot ratio.

    Located 200m from Pasir Panjang MRT station, the 38,220 sq ft freehold site is zoned for residential use under the Government's Masterplan 2014.

    The development comprises 32 apartments and owners representing more than the requisite 80 per cent of share value and strata area have consented to the collective sale.

    "Given that the neighbouring project, Bijou, achieved an average sale price of $2,120 psf in August, we envisage keen interest from developers," said CBRE's director of investment properties Galven Tan. "The development size is very manageable and will draw in a wide pool of buyers."

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    Teddybear, FH can hold forever? 50 year old only leh?
    "Never argue with an idiot, or he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience."

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    Teddybear, FH can hold forever? 50 year old only leh?
    "Never argue with an idiot, or he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience."

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    Owners trying their luck lah!
    If 50 years cannot enbloc, can try for another 50 years sure can enbloc at some time...
    But too bad, for your 99-years leasehold properties in JLD, once it has less than 70 years lease your property value will depreciate very quickly, you just can't wait for another 50 years because by then your property value will be close to ZERO!!!!
    The problem is not the property because they are made of concrete and can last centuries!
    The problem with your property is that you are just tenant for 99-years, that is all!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ringo33 View Post
    Teddybear, FH can hold forever? 50 year old only leh?

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    Strange, I saw someone advertised for sale cairnhill mansion $3.5m today in papers, if really someone bought, will ganna SSD...

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    Quote Originally Posted by teddybear View Post
    Owners trying their luck lah!
    If 50 years cannot enbloc, can try for another 50 years sure can enbloc at some time...
    But too bad, for your 99-years leasehold properties in JLD, once it has less than 70 years lease your property value will depreciate very quickly, you just can't wait for another 50 years because by then your property value will be close to ZERO!!!!
    The problem is not the property because they are made of concrete and can last centuries!
    The problem with your property is that you are just tenant for 99-years, that is all!
    The fact is if this one is LH they can have lower reserve price than $2,308 per sq ft.

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    The fact is, if this one is LH, developers can buy all those properties for free at $0 in another 49 years, they just need to top up 99-years lease for the LAND !!!!!!!!!!!
    Thereafter, they just need to renovate like new using existing structure and sell at a BIG profit!
    This is the FIRST WARNING for those who buy 99-years leasehold properties hoping to enbloc within 30 years! If can't enbloc within 30 years mean that is it! 99-years leasehold properties' owners got no time to wait!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandiwara View Post
    The fact is if this one is LH they can have lower reserve price than $2,308 per sq ft.

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    Quote Originally Posted by teddybear View Post
    The fact is, if this one is LH, developers can buy all those properties for free at $0 in another 49 years, they just need to top up 99-years lease for the LAND !!!!!!!!!!!
    Thereafter, they just need to renovate like new using existing structure and sell at a BIG profit!
    Do you have any actual case happen in Singapore?. Ups I forget that you and me use word "IF"

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    Going to happen, just a matter of time.........
    So many 99-years leasehold properties being built, it is just a matter of time when those in the OCR, far from MRT and shopping malls AND those being hyped up (and then left to bite dust) will be allowed to run till end of 99-years lease................ BEWARE!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandiwara View Post
    Do you have any actual case happen in Singapore?. Ups I forget that you and me use word "IF"

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    Quote Originally Posted by teddybear View Post
    Going to happen, just a matter of time.........
    So many 99-years leasehold properties being built, it is just a matter of time when those in the OCR, far from MRT and shopping malls AND those being hyped up (and then left to bite dust) will be allowed to run till end of 99-years lease................ BEWARE!
    I think left to run til end of 99 years lease will happen to HDBs which are not located in strategic locations.

    I mentioned before that FH properties may find themselves harder to get the required quota to put the development up for collective sale as there will be many owners who think that they can have their property forever and not agree to enbloc unless they get an extremely good offer. Cairnhill mansions seems to be a good example here.
    Whereas for LH owners, they are well aware that their property will decline in value after X years and thus have that time urgency and not be foolish to continue to hold on to their property and be more likely to agree to a collective sale when a reasonable price has been met. Plus with the government releasing lesser and lesser land plots for development with land supply dwindling, developers many years down may only be able to acquire land for development through acquisition of land through collective sale agreement.

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    You got the point, but yet you arrived at the wrong conclusion!
    Let me point out why your conclusion is wrong:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jem
    "I mentioned before that properties may find themselves harder to get the required quota to put the development up for collective sale as there will be many owners who think that they can have their property forever and not agree to enbloc unless they get an extremely good offer. Cairnhill mansions seems to be a good example here."
    Well, isn't this VERY GOOD for FH property owners?
    Regardless of what price you bought your FH properties like Cairnhill Mansions, you are ensured that you will get an extremely good offer if the estate goes enbloc! Few if any will be short-changed and few need to settle for lousy offer!

    On the other hand, the opposite is true for 99-years leasehold properties. When the lease left is 70 years or less, 99-years LH property owners become more and more DESPERATE and more and more will be willing to enbloc at lousy price, thus ENSURING that most owners who bought later at higher price will be at losing end! So what is the lesson here? NEVER EVER BUY 99-YEARS LEASEHOLD PROPERTIES WHEN THEY ARE ALREADY >10 YEARS OLD !!!


    Quote Originally Posted by Jem View Post
    I think left to run til end of 99 years lease will happen to HDBs which are not located in strategic locations.

    I mentioned before that FH properties may find themselves harder to get the required quota to put the development up for collective sale as there will be many owners who think that they can have their property forever and not agree to enbloc unless they get an extremely good offer. Cairnhill mansions seems to be a good example here.

    Whereas for LH owners, they are well aware that their property will decline in value after X years and thus have that time urgency and not be foolish to continue to hold on to their property and be more likely to agree to a collective sale when a reasonable price has been met. Plus with the government releasing lesser and lesser land plots for development with land supply dwindling, developers many years down may only be able to acquire land for development through acquisition of land through collective sale agreement.

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    I have already told you many times before, you cant own the FH condo forever and
    thats the reason why FH is only worth 15 to 20% premium over LH.

    So please stop dreaming and fantasizing about you and your property will be around forever.


    Quote Originally Posted by teddybear View Post
    Owners trying their luck lah!
    If 50 years cannot enbloc, can try for another 50 years sure can enbloc at some time...
    But too bad, for your 99-years leasehold properties in JLD, once it has less than 70 years lease your property value will depreciate very quickly, you just can't wait for another 50 years because by then your property value will be close to ZERO!!!!
    The problem is not the property because they are made of concrete and can last centuries!
    The problem with your property is that you are just tenant for 99-years, that is all!
    "Never argue with an idiot, or he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience."

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    Quote Originally Posted by teddybear View Post
    The fact is, if this one is LH, developers can buy all those properties for free at $0 in another 49 years, they just need to top up 99-years lease for the LAND !!!!!!!!!!!
    Thereafter, they just need to renovate like new using existing structure and sell at a BIG profit!
    This is the FIRST WARNING for those who buy 99-years leasehold properties hoping to enbloc within 30 years! If can't enbloc within 30 years mean that is it! 99-years leasehold properties' owners got no time to wait!

    No condo in Singapore is worth keeping for 99 years due to high cost of maintenance and lack of economic values.
    When the property market recovers, developers will start scouting for land to for enbloc. LH FH doesnt matter as
    long as location is good and government approve lease top up.

    Singapore government is the biggest land owner in Singapore and its their job and interest to ensure they preserves
    the value of LH property.

    In 15 years time, 80% of the household will have MRT station within 10mins walk
    "Never argue with an idiot, or he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience."

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    LH & FH doesn't matter?
    Great! Please tell that to the govt & convert all HDB flats to FH title!
    I can't imagine how stupid that can be!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ringo33 View Post
    No condo in Singapore is worth keeping for 99 years due to high cost of maintenance and lack of economic values.
    When the property market recovers, developers will start scouting for land to for enbloc. LH FH doesnt matter as
    long as location is good and government approve lease top up.

    Singapore government is the biggest land owner in Singapore and its their job and interest to ensure they preserves
    the value of LH property.

    In 15 years time, 80% of the household will have MRT station within 10mins walk

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    Quote Originally Posted by heehee View Post
    LH & FH doesn't matter?
    Great! Please tell that to the govt & convert all HDB flats to FH title!
    I can't imagine how stupid that can be!

    I can certainly see that your brain capacity is limited
    Perhaps your inability to understand what others people are talking is giving
    you the fallacy to believe that you are smarter than what you really are.

    Yes, LH or FH doesnt matter. And we are talking about en bloc.
    "Never argue with an idiot, or he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience."

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    I am very sure I am smarter than you are!
    So, you better listen!
    I know you have a lot of time here to quarrel, but not me. I have better things to do outside of this forum & making big money there!
    Why waste so much time quarelling here instead of going out there to make real money?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ringo33 View Post
    I can certainly see that your brain capacity is limited
    Perhaps your inability to understand what others people are talking is giving
    you the fallacy to believe that you are smarter than what you really are.

    Yes, LH or FH doesnt matter. And we are talking about en bloc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by heehee View Post
    I am very sure I am smarter than you are!
    So, you better listen!
    I know you have a lot of time here to quarrel, but not me. I have better things to do outside of this forum & making big money there!
    Why waste so much time quarelling here instead of going out there to make real money?
    This is classic. I am smart, I make big money. LOL!!

    Ok you are smart.
    "Never argue with an idiot, or he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience."

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    Ringo, show that you are smart by making BIG MONEY FIRST!

    Don't go around calling people "brain capacity is limited" or stupid (as though people don't understand what you are saying) when you yourself cannot even make BIG money how to advise other people on how to make BIG money?????????

    Calling others to buy JGateway at anything >$1300 psf is as good as asking people to throw money into the drain!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by Ringo33 View Post
    This is classic. I am smart, I make big money. LOL!!

    Ok you are smart.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ringo33 View Post
    I can certainly see that your brain capacity is limited
    Perhaps your inability to understand what others people are talking is giving
    you the fallacy to believe that you are smarter than what you really are.

    Yes, LH or FH doesnt matter. And we are talking about en bloc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by teddybear View Post
    Ringo, show that you are smart by making BIG MONEY FIRST!

    Don't go around calling people "brain capacity is limited" or stupid (as though people don't understand what you are saying) when you yourself cannot even make BIG money how to advise other people on how to make BIG money?????????

    Calling others to buy JGateway at anything >$1300 psf is as good as asking people to throw money into the drain!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    After MTB on MM an OCR, and then stuck with a old FH property located in the wrong side of CCR, I can fully understand why you need to go around promoting FH property can hold FOREVER and OCR will crash.


    Quote Originally Posted by teddybear View Post
    Green horn teaching ecperienced investor how to invest? Wow!
    They sure will die pain pain in 6 years time! For SURE because OCR private condos crashing!
    Teddybear, something is not right here, 1 WEEK ago you said that 2 to 3 years the price will drop by 20-30%,
    now you are saying 6 years. Why so ? Because lack of confident in your prediction so need to buy a bit of time? LOL!!

    Quote Originally Posted by teddybear View Post
    As we all know, OCR private condos are seriously OVER-PRICED!
    should see JGateway drop another 20-30% below $1400 psf in next 2-3 years!

    http://forums.condosingapore.com/sho...623#post492623
    "Never argue with an idiot, or he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience."

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    Very simple, 2-3 years drop 20-30%, 6 years later drop 50% for JGateway! You better pray that your govt takes away cooling measures otherwise that is what you will see!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ringo33 View Post
    After MTB on MM an OCR, and then stuck with a old FH property located in the wrong side of CCR, I can fully understand why you need to go around promoting FH property can hold FOREVER and OCR will crash.




    Teddybear, something is not right here, 1 WEEK ago you said that 2 to 3 years the price will drop by 20-30%,
    now you are saying 6 years. Why so ?
    Because lack of confident in your prediction so need to buy a bit of time? LOL!!




    http://forums.condosingapore.com/sho...623#post492623

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jem View Post
    I think left to run til end of 99 years lease will happen to HDBs which are not located in strategic locations.

    I mentioned before that FH properties may find themselves harder to get the required quota to put the development up for collective sale as there will be many owners who think that they can have their property forever and not agree to enbloc unless they get an extremely good offer. Cairnhill mansions seems to be a good example here.
    Whereas for LH owners, they are well aware that their property will decline in value after X years and thus have that time urgency and not be foolish to continue to hold on to their property and be more likely to agree to a collective sale when a reasonable price has been met. Plus with the government releasing lesser and lesser land plots for development with land supply dwindling, developers many years down may only be able to acquire land for development through acquisition of land through collective sale agreement.

    Very good explanation. But Not every one understand this. The mind set is when the initial investment is high, they expected to sell high. The problem is the Developer also going to need higher investment to redevelop. I agree FH have more value than LH. But my point is easier to Cash out LH because buyer have lower initial investment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by teddybear View Post
    You got the point, but yet you arrived at the wrong conclusion!
    Let me point out why your conclusion is wrong:



    Well, isn't this VERY GOOD for FH property owners?
    Regardless of what price you bought your FH properties like Cairnhill Mansions, you are ensured that you will get an extremely good offer if the estate goes enbloc! Few if any will be short-changed and few need to settle for lousy offer!

    On the other hand, the opposite is true for 99-years leasehold properties. When the lease left is 70 years or less, 99-years LH property owners become more and more DESPERATE and more and more will be willing to enbloc at lousy price, thus ENSURING that most owners who bought later at higher price will be at losing end! So what is the lesson here? NEVER EVER BUY 99-YEARS LEASEHOLD PROPERTIES WHEN THEY ARE ALREADY >10 YEARS OLD !!!
    That is if you can successfully meet the quota for a collective agreement. Some people never want to sell or like you want to leave it to other generation but others want to sell and cash out.

    I actually agree that there is higher risk in buying an older LH and likewise I wun do it too as there are lotsa newer choices.

    FH and LH it still boils down to timing, location, condition and price

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandiwara View Post
    Very good explanation. But Not every one understand this. The mind set is when the initial investment is high, they expected to sell high. The problem is the Developer also going to need higher investment to redevelop. I agree FH have more value than LH. But my point is easier to Cash out LH because buyer have lower initial investment.

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    If your property is freehold, no enbloc doesn't matter because the FH land will rise in value.
    If your property is leasehold and some owners still don't want to sell despite >30 years like The Horizon, the rest of owners will get stuck & end up with 0 value property when land lease runs out.
    If you own freehold property, condition doesn't matter, timing not important, time is on your side. You have better insurance of making money than owning 99-LH.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jem View Post
    That is if you can successfully meet the quota for a collective agreement. Some people never want to sell or like you want to leave it to other generation but others want to sell and cash out.

    I actually agree that there is higher risk in buying an older LH and likewise I wun do it too as there are lotsa newer choices.

    FH and LH it still boils down to timing, location, condition and price

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    Quote Originally Posted by heehee View Post
    If your property is freehold, no enbloc doesn't matter because the FH land will rise in value.
    If your property is leasehold and some owners still don't want to sell despite >30 years like The Horizon, the rest of owners will get stuck & end up with 0 value property when land lease runs out.
    That is true also.

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    This is really well-said! Buying property with "Freehold" status is like buying "INSURANCE" for your property!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by heehee View Post
    If your property is freehold, no enbloc doesn't matter because the FH land will rise in value.
    If your property is leasehold and some owners still don't want to sell despite >30 years like The Horizon, the rest of owners will get stuck & end up with 0 value property when land lease runs out.
    If you own freehold property, condition doesn't matter, timing not important, time is on your side. You have better insurance of making money than owning 99-LH.

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    Quote Originally Posted by heehee View Post
    If your property is freehold, no enbloc doesn't matter because the FH land will rise in value.
    If your property is leasehold and some owners still don't want to sell despite >30 years like The Horizon, the rest of owners will get stuck & end up with 0 value property when land lease runs out.
    If you own freehold property, condition doesn't matter, timing not important, time is on your side. You have better insurance of making money than owning 99-LH.
    This is true and the bigger issue is that all new government land sales are leasehold sites, so freehold land is becoming a scarcer proportion of total land stock in Singapore.

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    Think: Price is always about SUPPLY vs DEMAND...

    When SUPPLY keep dropping, even if DEMAND is constant means PRICE will RISE...

    However, DEMAND is likely to keep increasing in FUTURE once PEOPLE realize they are getting short-changed for buying 99-years Leasehold at such high price compared to Freehold!

    So, for Freehold properties, we will have SUPPLY DROP and DEMAND INCREASE, means Freehold property price sure up in long-run and time is on your side (no fear of 99-years lease running out)!

    The same is not true for 99-years leasehold, and it is in some people's interest to try to keep price of 99-years leasehold land and property close to freehold because they have lots of 99-years LH land supply waiting to sell (yet) (and there will be more to recycle once those 99-years lease runs out)!
    So for 99-years Leasehold properties, SUPPLY is GREAT!
    DEMAND is probably constant,
    and land lease runs out after 99-years,
    so 99-years leasehold property prices will drop over long-term!

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxim1 View Post
    This is true and the bigger issue is that all new government land sales are leasehold sites, so freehold land is becoming a scarcer proportion of total land stock in Singapore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by teddybear View Post
    Think: Price is always about SUPPLY vs DEMAND...

    When SUPPLY keep dropping, even if DEMAND is constant means PRICE will RISE...

    However, DEMAND is likely to keep increasing in FUTURE once PEOPLE realize they are getting short-changed for buying 99-years Leasehold at such high price compared to Freehold!

    So, for Freehold properties, we will have SUPPLY DROP and DEMAND INCREASE, means Freehold property price sure up in long-run and time is on your side (no fear of 99-years lease running out)!

    The same is not true for 99-years leasehold, and it is in some people's interest to try to keep price of 99-years leasehold land and property close to freehold because they have lots of 99-years LH land supply waiting to sell (yet) (and there will be more to recycle once those 99-years lease runs out)!
    So for 99-years Leasehold properties, SUPPLY is GREAT!
    DEMAND is probably constant,
    and land lease runs out after 99-years,
    so 99-years leasehold property prices will drop over long-term!

    Stop talking nonsense.

    The value of FH land is only as valuable as what investors and home buyers are willing to pay when the land gets developed and for investors they are only willing pay if a price that can command decent positive yield and for tenants, they are only willing to pay if they see the value.

    So please stop talking like FH condo are scares commodity because its not. When FH condo age and loses its economic value, they will need to be en bloc, so you are likely to see more supply coming into the market. Dont believe just go a search to see how pathetic are the rent some FH property in CCR are asking
    "Never argue with an idiot, or he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience."

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