Significant Singapore News

[teddybear]

minority,
still refused to answer a direct question?

I am saying Progressive Wage is basically Minimum Wage, because it is based on Minimum Wage anyway, so if you happy you can called it "Progressive Wage", Unicorn Wage, whatever, but it is basically based on Minimum Wage, simple as that.........

And you said "Minimum Wage" is totally crap, looks like "Progressive Wage" is just as good as "Minimum Wage" then.........

Who is the one twisting the words? You are the one who insist that Min Wage is Progress wage. now u say its a Model? LOL!!! So its it a model or is it the same? can u make up your brainless mind? and stop flip flopping ard? Or basically you are a Progressive Liar. Who will just lie your way though and flip at the most convent moment.

Let me tell u my stand never change. Min Wage is not equal to Progressive WAGE. So don't come flip flop lah. now u agree its not the same! and you want to come act like you have been saying that all along???? WHAT A PATHOLOGICAL LIAR.!!!!!

[teddybear]

Progressive Wage is better or not I don't know, but I know that after Progressive Wage has been implemented, my estate had "retrenched" 1 cleaner (because the rest of the cleaners being more highly paid will be more efficient and hence can do all the job with 1 cleaner less).........

The same is going to happen to the Security Guards when Progressive Wage is implemented for them, going to retrench 1 Security Guard per shift........

There is a subtle difference between Minimum Wage and minimum wage.

I'm not a fan of the TOC in general but there is an attempt here to distinguish between Minimum Wage and Progressive Wage.... but I do agree both models have a minimum wage component in them.

QUOTE
http://www.theonlinecitizen.com/2015...-modelspart-i/

Generally, the Minimum Wage model attempts a direct redistribution of wealth from the business to the worker, while the Progressive Wage model attempts to increase the wealth of workers by making them more valuable to the employer, who, in turn, will hire them at higher wages.

The Progressive Wage model
1.Businesses require and desire local workers that are highly trained
2.Workers are willing and able to undergo the training being given
3.Businesses are willing to accept (through heavy incentivising or coercion) to accept the disruption to their businesses when training takes place (heavily incentivised, rather than merely incentivised because disruption to a business is not counted merely in dollars and cents. Sometimes, those causing the disruption are so vital that businesses might prefer to discard the worker altogether, and hire someone else on a permanent basis)
4.Workers do not suffer from fatigue, insecurity and demoralisation, which make it impossible for them to sustain the effort needed to improve their skills (especially in the context of the above requirements)
5.The economy is significantly driven by external factors, rather than internal consumption

The Minimum Wage model
1.Businesses are able to absorb the cost of any increases in wages
2.Workers are presently underpaid vis-a-vis the amount of effort that they put in – resulting in negative economic consequences such as under-consumption within the domestic economy
3.Businesses are willing to accept (through heavy incentivising or coercion) to accept the increased costs that they must incur as a result of this action
4.The effect of fatigue, insecurity and demoralisation are a primary cause of productivity decreases and stagnation, either through an unwillingness to take risks, or an inability to concentrate for psychological reasons
5.The effect of increased salaries result in sufficient beneficial results, such as additional consumption, greater ability and willingness to partake in entrepreneurship, better ability to take on new skills, and increased tax revenues will outweigh the negative effects such as increases in unemployment, withdrawal of business opportunities and consequences of violations of trade agreements with other countries, if any.

UNQUOTE

[hopeful]

Are cleaners, security guards, taxi drivers, real estate agents restricted only to citizens / PRs?

I wonder why Banglas never take the offer for dishwasher at sushi outlet for $3k per month?

[teddybear]

dishwasher at $3k pm?

Isn't this the same as minority saying don't bullshit, when did we ever pay security guard $3-4k pm?

Ops, minority forgot we paid to the security guard's bosses, not directly to the guards!

Is this the same case for the dishwasher at $3k pm?

Are cleaners, security guards, taxi drivers, real estate agents restricted only to citizens / PRs?

I wonder why Banglas never take the offer for dishwasher at sushi outlet for $3k per month?

[Ilikeu]

Progressive Wage is better or not I don't know, but I know that after Progressive Wage has been implemented, my estate had "retrenched" 1 cleaner (because the rest of the cleaners being more highly paid will be more efficient and hence can do all the job with 1 cleaner less).........

The same is going to happen to the Security Guards when Progressive Wage is implemented for them, going to retrench 1 Security Guard per shift........

The opposition have been advocating for Minimum Wage and the govt have been resisting that citing the social problems faced by the European countries. Mr Tharman stated he is not supportive of safety net but instead believe in a trampoline system.

[teddybear]

Don't understand, if government really resisting Min Wage why they end up implementing "Min Wage"? Nobody can put a gun to their head right?
Ok ok, I know it should be called "Progressive Wage", but PW is basically based on MW, so it is like a "horse" and putting a fake horn on it and calling it "unicorn" right?

And what is a trampoline system?

The opposition have been advocating for Minimum Wage and the govt have been resisting that citing the social problems faced by the European countries. Mr Tharman stated he is not supportive of safety net but instead believe in a trampoline system.

[Ilikeu]

Don't understand, if government really resisting Min Wage why they end up implementing "Min Wage"? Nobody can put a gun to their head right?
Ok ok, I know it should be called "Progressive Wage", but PW is basically based on MW, so it is like a "horse" and putting a fake horn on it and calling it "unicorn" right?

And what is a trampoline system?

Remember the govt got a watershed election in GE2011.... hence they had moved to implement some form of min wage but not Minimum Wage.

Watch this live interview of Mr. Tharman... imo, i think that is one of the best by a minister. It is long but well worth watching. Mr. Tharman did explain why the govt is resisting safety net (or Minimum Wage in similarity) and around the 25min mark, he explained why he believe in trampoline instead (which i deduce it is more similar in nature to Progressive Wage).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpwPciW74b8

[teddybear]

Progressive Wage is basically Min Wage lah......

You can say there are differences between the 2, but basically the most important element, i.e. enforcing Minimum Wages, is the SAME!

While people will say Progressive Wage is better variant of Min Wage, but there are also others who say Min Wage is fairer, because as of now, many other sectors still not subjected to Min Wages! They question the fairness?

Ah, but that rises another problem: Why is the government artificially regulating the minimum wages the employers should pay their employees for different kinds of jobs??? Like that there is no more free market pay anymore???? Have they forgotten what is the real purpose of "Min Wage"???? With Progressive Wage, they seems like they also lost about what they are doing, and keep dictating what is the min wage for different job titles etc? Sounds like artificial "salary fixing"??? First they fixed the min pay of cleaners, then gardeners/landscapers, then security guards, who's next? Sales assistant, cashiers, bus drivers, hawkers' assistants, office girls/boys, delivery men, ???
Wow, like that they must be damned busy! But does it serve real purpose in fixing pays for jobs of so many different nature??? I really wonder by then whether there is real free market pay or not??? Will all those people end up getting "Progressive Min Wage" as their Max Wage until they get promoted to the next higher title?

Remember the govt got a watershed election in GE2011.... hence they had moved to implement some form of min wage but not Minimum Wage.

Watch this live interview of Mr. Tharman... imo, i think that is one of the best by a minister. It is long but well worth watching. Mr. Tharman did explain why the govt is resisting safety net (or Minimum Wage in similarity) and around the 25min mark, he explained why he believe in trampoline instead (which i deduce it is more similar in nature to Progressive Wage).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpwPciW74b8

[Ilikeu]

Progressive Wage is basically Min Wage lah......

You can say there are differences between the 2, but basically the most important element, i.e. enforcing Minimum Wages, is the SAME!

While people will say Progressive Wage is better variant of Min Wage, but there are also others who say Min Wage is fairer, because as of now, many other sectors still not subjected to Min Wages! They question the fairness?

Ah, but that rises another problem: Why is the government artificially regulating the minimum wages the employers should pay their employees for different kinds of jobs??? Like that there is no more free market pay anymore???? Have they forgotten what is the real purpose of "Min Wage"???? With Progressive Wage, they seems like they also lost about what they are doing, and keep dictating what is the min wage for different job titles etc? Sounds like artificial "salary fixing"??? First they fixed the min pay of cleaners, then gardeners/landscapers, then security guards, who's next? Sales assistant, cashiers, bus drivers, hawkers' assistants, office girls/boys, delivery men, ???
Wow, like that they must be damned busy! But does it serve real purpose in fixing pays for jobs of so many different nature??? I really wonder by then whether there is real free market pay or not??? Will all those people end up getting "Progressive Min Wage" as their Max Wage until they get promoted to the next higher title?

I think Mr. Tharman had answered that by advocating for the notion of a trampoline... the policy is not perfect, it is still in its infancy, but the idea and intent is there.

[teddybear]

Trampoline again?
Don't think any journalists has covered that.............
So no journalist understand the idea????

I think Mr. Tharman had answered that by advocating for the notion of a trampoline... the policy is not perfect, it is still in its infancy, but the idea and intent is there.

[Ilikeu]

Trampoline again?
Don't think any journalists has covered that.............
So no journalist understand the idea????

Do a google, that was widely reported, such as in businesstimes, asiaone, blogs etc
Just one of the links here:
http://mothership.sg/2015/05/bbcs-st...len-symposium/
Round 5: Safety net! DPM Tharman gave the soundbite of the week and made Sackur “stunned like vegetable” for ten seconds (24:45-26:09).

[teddybear]

After reading what you pointed out, what I find is all the mumbo jumbo basically just regurgitating common sense, I didn't read anything that is insightful, that is all I can say.......

Do a google, that was widely reported, such as in businesstimes, asiaone, blogs etc
Just one of the links here:
http://mothership.sg/2015/05/bbcs-st...len-symposium/
Round 5: Safety net! DPM Tharman gave the soundbite of the week and made Sackur “stunned like vegetable” for ten seconds (24:45-26:09).

[Ilikeu]

After reading what you pointed out, what I find is all the mumbo jumbo basically just regurgitating common sense, I didn't read anything that is insightful, that is all I can say.......

Yes those blogs, TOC or
mothership are usually full of drama... or maybe common sense. I am not a fan of those.
The video on the interview is more meaningful.

[august]

Yes those blogs, TOC or
mothership are usually full of drama... or maybe common sense. I am not a fan of those.
The video on the interview is more meaningful.

Here's my take, of course ymmv. The minister's defensive look says it all. Sakur almost sniggered and stopped himself from going further to save the minister's face. Of course some in the audience applauded the minister's reply. There are also obvious incredulous laughter as well. So depends how you want to spin it.

[gentlemanofleisure]

New here but been reading since I'm hunting for a property.

I'm not necessarily right, but these are my guess.
I think trampoline is more like training workers to deserve the better wage.
Progressive wage is introduced because the 2011 election force govt to move to the left to placate the lower income group.

I haven't studied progressive wage but by defining it differently, govt can say they still don't believe in it and progressive wage is a lesser form of necessary evil.

The interview with Tharman is really good. He was revealing numerous statistics which populist politicians never talk about.

[Ilikeu]

Here's my take, of course ymmv. The minister's defensive look says it all. Sakur almost sniggered and stopped himself from going further to save the minister's face. Of course some in the audience applauded the minister's reply. There are also obvious incredulous laughter as well. So depends how you want to spin it.

I am not a politician. No need for me to spin it.

[Ilikeu]

New here but been reading since I'm hunting for a property.

I'm not necessarily right, but these are my guess.
I think trampoline is more like training workers to deserve the better wage.
Progressive wage is introduced because the 2011 election force govt to move to the left to placate the lower income group.

I haven't studied progressive wage but by defining it differently, govt can say they still don't believe in it and progressive wage is a lesser form of necessary evil.

The interview with Tharman is really good. He was revealing numerous statistics which populist politicians never talk about.

Yes, i opined he gave a very good interview in spite of the host's sometimes disrespectful posture, body language and tone of questionings.

[hopeful]

....
I haven't studied progressive wage but by defining it differently, govt can say they still don't believe in it and progressive wage is a lesser form of necessary evil.
....

Any full-time job that pays lower than a cleaner job for a resident?
If resident cleaner earns the lowest amongst all the residents, then minimum wage for a resident cleaner is the defacto minimum wage in Singapore, be it by licensing or legislation.

btw, the progressive scheme is applicable to residents only, citizens and prs. so bangla construction workers / maids can earn well below $500 and still not be a political problem. They can't vote afterall.

as to call it progressive wage, it is a matter of politics. opposition has been calling for minimum wage. pap government can't say opposition is right, can they?

[august]

I am not a politician. No need for me to spin it.

Spin is not the exclusive domain of politicians, obviously.

[onglai]

after training, wage higher, productivity suppose to increase. cost of doing business shd improve.

but seems like the cleaner/security guard line, after the so called training, wage go up, everydamn thing oso go up... no difference from the the so called 'minimum wage' dat the govt trying hard to avoid.

[Ilikeu]

Spin is not the exclusive domain of politicians, obviously.

You are ahead of me in this skill.

[teddybear]

After training, productivity supposed to increase, so wage increase, and we can make do with less workers and start to retrench a few in order avoid higher costs and hence inflation to us...........
Head or tail, we lose, the workers lose, only their bosses win (because they get the justification to jack up prices they are charging us in the name of "Progressive Wages" cominggggggggggggggggg)................

Just like the scenario I referred to, security guards companies' bosses are charging us like $3000-4000 pm for each guard they supply, but they only pay $1200-1700 pm to the guard. So the difference they pocket is like $1800-2300 pm per guard...

Less the overhead costs (which is not much if they have scale), they are earning much more from each guard pm than what is being paid as monthly salary to the guard!!!!!!!!!!!

Instead of PW (ie "Progressive Wage"), I think a PSW ("Profit-Sharing Wage") will be better for the workers? When the companies and the bosses earn more, they should pay the workers more!

Then there is no need to so tedious trying put an artificial number as the progressive minimum wage for each job, as though they are trying to do "price fixing" to salaries for these jobs and as though there is no more free-market pay........
Worst, we don't know whether it will end up in a situation where the "Progressive Min Wage" become their "Max Wage" employers are willing to pay......................

after training, wage higher, productivity suppose to increase. cost of doing business shd improve.

but seems like the cleaner/security guard line, after the so called training, wage go up, everydamn thing oso go up... no difference from the the so called 'minimum wage' dat the govt trying hard to avoid.

[minority]

Progressive Wage is better or not I don't know, but I know that after Progressive Wage has been implemented, my estate had "retrenched" 1 cleaner (because the rest of the cleaners being more highly paid will be more efficient and hence can do all the job with 1 cleaner less).........

The same is going to happen to the Security Guards when Progressive Wage is implemented for them, going to retrench 1 Security Guard per shift........

Can you make up your mind? One moment KPKB say expensive. next moment KPKB guard is retrench. One moment complain too much automation is expansive next moment say must have more man power at cheaper cost . Next KPKB say no Min wage SGPean under paid then next moment KPKB say increasing wage but folks who not able to skill up have to be let go.

SO I WONDER WAT DO YOU STAND FOR?? DONT EVERY MONING COCK STAND TILT LEFT NEXT MOMENT TILT RIGHT. I THINK YOU FLIP FASTER THAN A PRATA TAKE TO GET ONE SIDE COOKED MAN!

[minority]

After reading what you pointed out, what I find is all the mumbo jumbo basically just regurgitating common sense, I didn't read anything that is insightful, that is all I can say.......

Shallow skull can't hold water thats the problem u have here.

[minority]

After training, productivity supposed to increase, so wage increase, and we can make do with less workers and start to retrench a few in order avoid higher costs and hence inflation to us...........
Head or tail, we lose, the workers lose, only their bosses win (because they get the justification to jack up prices they are charging us in the name of "Progressive Wages" cominggggggggggggggggg)................

Just like the scenario I referred to, security guards companies' bosses are charging us like $3000-4000 pm for each guard they supply, but they only pay $1200-1700 pm to the guard. So the difference they pocket is like $1800-2300 pm per guard...

Less the overhead costs (which is not much if they have scale), they are earning much more from each guard pm than what is being paid as monthly salary to the guard!!!!!!!!!!!

Instead of PW (ie "Progressive Wage"), I think a PSW ("Profit-Sharing Wage") will be better for the workers? When the companies and the bosses earn more, they should pay the workers more!

Then there is no need to so tedious trying put an artificial number as the progressive minimum wage for each job, as though they are trying to do "price fixing" to salaries for these jobs and as though there is no more free-market pay........
Worst, we don't know whether it will end up in a situation where the "Progressive Min Wage" become their "Max Wage" employers are willing to pay......................

Talk cock lah who use proof each guard pay is pm $4k!! show us don't come talk cock talk bullshit... leh. I smell a lot of bullshit loading ur crap on my screen.

[minority]

after training, wage higher, productivity suppose to increase. cost of doing business shd improve.

but seems like the cleaner/security guard line, after the so called training, wage go up, everydamn thing oso go up... no difference from the the so called 'minimum wage' dat the govt trying hard to avoid.

Well the truth to all is cost defiantly go up. But there is so much that can be passed on to the consumers with if increase in cost is not coupled with productivity.

So i.e. automation but automation don't mean the cost will be cheaper than before. coz automation also comes at a cost. So depending what that need to address. the current crunch is manpower cost and manpower availability. Do the policy continue to allow low skilled workers to flood in so business can continue as it is? if not then business need to think how to increase productivity. and thats always a cost push. if cost of delivering a service is not feasible with the current cost then business are automatically forced to look at automation if not go out of biz.

The security companies also have to amend to some rule in terms of showing development plans. and with increase cost lesser man power they will have to depend on automation.

in the end if the people need to put the $$ where their mouth is. Ask for more inclusive society n lesser people then cost naturally will have to rebalance.

[minority]

minority,
still refused to answer a direct question?

I am saying Progressive Wage is basically Minimum Wage, because it is based on Minimum Wage anyway, so if you happy you can called it "Progressive Wage", Unicorn Wage, whatever, but it is basically based on Minimum Wage, simple as that.........

And you said "Minimum Wage" is totally crap, looks like "Progressive Wage" is just as good as "Minimum Wage" then.........

Talk cock lah One moment say Progressive wage is a model of Win wage. Next agrees Progressive Wage <=> Min wage. Then now say Progressive wage have a min wage component so its min wage.

Why not you say Progressive Wage is more than Min Wage. coz Min Wage looking like component is a small component of it? So I Maintain my stand its not the same.

So A Pig have a Gene same as You (human)

http://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/ani...netic-analysis

So what MEANS YOU ARE A PIG???? Coz since you say base on ur ANAL LOGY thats how its the same. So

TALK COCK!!! U BULLSHIT FASTER THEN YOU CAN FLIP PRATA!

[teddybear]

minority,
Your post just shows that you are an absolute liar with no integrity and putting words into other people's mouth to suit your twist and turn, what else are you better at???????

There is no need to proof that people are paying $3k-$4k pm per guard to the security companies' bosses because people who know will know and people who bother to find out will know......

Only you minority will use your ass to twist and turn since you can't be bothered with facts (you can twist facts into lies and twist lies to sound like "facts")............

Talk cock lah who use proof each guard pay is pm $4k!! show us don't come talk cock talk bullshit... leh. I smell a lot of bullshit loading ur crap on my screen.

After training, productivity supposed to increase, so wage increase, and we can make do with less workers and start to retrench a few in order avoid higher costs and hence inflation to us...........
Head or tail, we lose, the workers lose, only their bosses win (because they get the justification to jack up prices they are charging us in the name of "Progressive Wages" cominggggggggggggggggg)................

Just like the scenario I referred to, security guards companies' bosses are charging us like $3000-4000 pm for each guard they supply, but they only pay $1200-1700 pm to the guard. So the difference they pocket is like $1800-2300 pm per guard...

Less the overhead costs (which is not much if they have scale), they are earning much more from each guard pm than what is being paid as monthly salary to the guard!!!!!!!!!!!

Instead of PW (ie "Progressive Wage"), I think a PSW ("Profit-Sharing Wage") will be better for the workers? When the companies and the bosses earn more, they should pay the workers more!

Then there is no need to so tedious trying put an artificial number as the progressive minimum wage for each job, as though they are trying to do "price fixing" to salaries for these jobs and as though there is no more free-market pay........
Worst, we don't know whether it will end up in a situation where the "Progressive Min Wage" become their "Max Wage" employers are willing to pay......................

[minority]

minority,
Your post just shows that you are an absolute liar with no integrity and putting words into other people's mouth to suit your twist and turn, what else are you better at???????

There is no need to proof that people are paying $3k-$4k pm per guard to the security companies' bosses because people who know will know and people who bother to find out will know......

Only you minority will use your ass to twist and turn since you can't be bothered with facts (you can twist facts into lies and twist lies to sound like "facts")............

No proof? And this is all you can gardner to come up with? I CLAP FOR U!!!! THE BULLSHIT IS STRONG WTIH YOU.!!!!!

[teddybear]

minority,
You still want to lie through your teeth that security guard companies are NOT charging $3000 to $4000 pm for each guard they provide?

And you want me to provide proof to all here that you are plainly lying???

No problem, but then if I can provide the proof, you will admit here to all that you are the BIGGEST ASSHOLE and LIAR and BULLSHITTER here? Fair deal?
But then again I know you don't dare to take up the challenge because you will be shitting in your pants for knowing that you are lying, that I know very well because you minority here are simply the BIGGEST ...........................

No proof? And this is all you can gardner to come up with? I CLAP FOR U!!!! THE BULLSHIT IS STRONG WTIH YOU.!!!!!

minority,
Your post just shows that you are an absolute liar with no integrity and putting words into other people's mouth to suit your twist and turn, what else are you better at???????

There is no need to proof that people are paying $3k-$4k pm per guard to the security companies' bosses because people who know will know and people who bother to find out will know......

Only you minority will use your ass to twist and turn since you can't be bothered with facts (you can twist facts into lies and twist lies to sound like "facts")............