Citibank is unilaterally rasing the spread on its existing Sibor loan customers !

[teddybear]

I believe the word "throughout" is not necessary and do not change anything to, for example, I say our agreement term is:
Year 1: SIBOR + 0.60%
Year 2 and thereafter: SIBOR + 0.60%

The word "throughout" is present or not do not change anything that the interest is still "SIBOR + 0.60%" from Year 2 and thereafter, because the figure "0.60%" by itself means that it is understood to be fixed! Otherwise, they would have written it as:

Year 2 and thereafter: SIBOR + spread to be determined solely by the bank from time to time!

The bank can argue whatever they like but the FACT that the main mortgage loan contract agreement did not CLEARLY state that they can change the SPREAD from time to time means THEY CAN'T CHANGE THE SPREAD!

i think from the way mr peng is saying, citibank does not want to point out this clause to the public. (but i think once citibank has no choice, he will say this clause exist, and he will also point out that all other banks have this clause.)
you see english news article did not report on the existence of this clause at all in the bank(s) T&C. i dont know abt the chinese article.
are the reporters aware? are the finance industry experts aware? is MAS aware? is CASE aware?
yet why no mention of the clause at all? That is the question.
or as sherlock holmes say"the dog did not bark".

so now he is trying to play on the word "throughout", which is so far thus un-defined. you all can checked whether the definition of "throughout" exist in your loan documents.

[hopeful]

Year 2 and thereafter: SIBOR + 0.60%

and what is the meaning of thereafter ?

[hopeful]

amk, teddy, do be aware of misdirection.
They throw you a bone ("throughout"), and you all chase after the bone.

once again, according to sherlock holmes, "the dog did not bark". There is no mention of catch-all clause in the news by all the parties (press, finance experts, affected parties, case, mas, etc) mentioned.
shouldn't the main focus be on the catch-all clause ?
Forget about the bones thrown and focus on the meat.
Once you do remove the foundation stone, the rest will fall in place.

[hopeful]

language is very powerful. "thereafter" and "throughout" is all subject to interpretaton.
To minimize errors, won't a table be better. it only adds an extra page to the letter of offer.
year 0: SIBOR + 0.65%.
year 1: SIBOR + 0.65%
..
..
year 29: SIBOR + 0.65%
year 30: SIBOR + 0.65%

or other versions like
year 0: SIBOR + 0.9%
year 1: SIBOR + 1.0%
year 2: SIBOR + 1.1%
..
..
year 29: SIBOR + 1.1%
year 30: SIBOR + 1.1%

As I said, this proposal only adds a page. But try proposing this format to your bankers. Outright rejection.
So what does this tells us about the word "throughout" and "thereafter" ?

edit: to minimise further misintepretation, in case they play with spread WITHIN the year.
year 0 (and the months within): SIBOR + 0.65%
year 1 (and the months within): SIBOR + 0.65%

[teddybear]

Ok, I am just quoting based on Dictionary definition:
thereafter = after that (time), following that,


So, "Year 2 and thereafter" will mean "Year 2 and after that time...".

Obviously if bank(s) want to dispute this based on their so-called "industry practises" (just like they try to re-define "throughout"), then they better show us their "industry Dictionary" to prove that. Otherwise, it is just excuses meant to mislead and cheat consumers?

language is very powerful. "thereafter" and "throughout" is all subject to interpretaton.
To minimize errors, won't a table be better. it only adds an extra page to the letter of offer.
year 0: SIBOR + 0.65%.
year 1: SIBOR + 0.65%
..
..
year 29: SIBOR + 0.65%
year 30: SIBOR + 0.65%

or other versions like
year 0: SIBOR + 0.9%
year 1: SIBOR + 1.0%
year 2: SIBOR + 1.1%
..
..
year 29: SIBOR + 1.1%
year 30: SIBOR + 1.1%

As I said, this proposal only adds a page. But try proposing this format to your bankers. Outright rejection.
So what does this tells us about the word "throughout" and "thereafter" ?

edit: to minimise further misintepretation, in case they play with spread WITHIN the year.
year 0 (and the months within): SIBOR + 0.65%
year 1 (and the months within): SIBOR + 0.65%

[ggmount]

Err... is there better rate than this new 0.85% ?

Consumer not happy can refinance switch bank ?

[teddybear]

Fat hope, ha ha ha!
Spread has been increasing, NO MORE 0.85% spread (as far as I know)!

Err... is there better rate than this new 0.85% ?

Consumer not happy can refinance switch bank ?

[hopeful]

teddy, what ggmount is trying to tell you is that spread of 0.85% is still a good deal for the affected citibank customers.

[amk]

hopeful, teddybear, bargain hunter, and whoever who feel strongly Citi is not doing the right thing, please help to write to Today, StraitsTimes, Zaobao.

for the strait time article, I found the link, the email address of the reporter is there.

http://business.asiaone.com/news/bor...in-sibor-loans

Only a sufficiently large public outcry can bring some attention from MAS. (CASE, forget about CASE, it's toothless).

btw hopeful: it's only after the Lehman case when MAS stipulated what product can be said "Guaranteed" (i.e. needs to be "A" rated, must be 100%, etc), and "capital protected" is forbidden. So MAS can act if it feels necessary. We need MAS to tell ABS to adopt fair mortgage contracts.

[amk]

Err... is there better rate than this new 0.85% ?

Consumer not happy can refinance switch bank ?

and should the bank compensate the cost of switch ? and what if the customer is not able due to TDSR ?

[sabian]

Too bad you can't vote when it comes to appointing CASE exco.

[ggmount]

hopeful, teddybear, bargain hunter, and whoever who feel strongly Citi is not doing the right thing, please help to write to Today, StraitsTimes, Zaobao.

for the strait time article, I found the link, the email address of the reporter is there.

http://business.asiaone.com/news/bor...in-sibor-loans

Only a sufficiently large public outcry can bring some attention from MAS. (CASE, forget about CASE, it's toothless).

btw hopeful: it's only after the Lehman case when MAS stipulated what product can be said "Guaranteed" (i.e. needs to be "A" rated, must be 100%, etc), and "capital protected" is forbidden. So MAS can act if it feels necessary. We need MAS to tell ABS to adopt fair mortgage contracts.

Public outcry? Can get all affected borrower to stand outside citibank demand explanation.. something like gold, lehman issue?

[hopeful]

side track a bit:
people used to say HK is laissez faire and SG is strictly controlled.
in HK, you can do whatever you want that is not expressly forbidden.
in SG, you cannot do what is not expressly allowed.

But recent example like minibonds, where there is govt intervention seems to turn the position of HK and SG around. SG is now more laissez faire than HK, at least in the finance and banking sector.
What is the world coming to?

My thoughts:
SG govt wants to develop the finance and banking sector.
Right now the size of the sector in SG is smaller when compared to those in HK.
MAS position is: if SG put in stricter rules, why should financiers/bankers move to SG ?
That's why they allowed operators like Geneva Gold or Ecohouse or time-sharing. However MAS do their 2cents bit by putting them on Investor Alert List.
So it is a win-win for MAS : I allowed "shady" operators to grow the industry and I put these "shady" operators on the alert list, so I already give a warning to the investors. To those SOPHISTICATED investors, you are already aware of the risk, you die your tai chi.

on a side road again:
to the scammers, it is a low risk, high reward scheme.
to the investors, what appears to be a high risk, high reward scheme turns out to be high risk, no reward scheme.
as my old folks used to say, NOBODY will make money for you. If the returns are so good, they will eat it themselves and not share with you.

Back to MAS topic again:
So to grow the finance/banking sector, the rules will be less strict, like dual class shares.
afterall MAS also knows of this phrase:
"Capital goes where it's welcome and stays where it's well treated." --Walter B. Wriston

and how does this long winded post connect to mortgage documents again?
I see the end game as something like timesharing:
1) requirement to point out the catch-all clause to the mortgagee. banker to point out the clause and mortgagee to initial on the clause.
so now mortgagee aware of it already.
2) after sign the loi, can still back out within 2 weeks.

[teddybear]

You mean Singapore MAS more interested to protect the interest and profits of banks like Citibank than Singaporean consumers/investors (after collecting possibly highest salary in the world from Singaporeans)??????????????????????

side track a bit:
people used to say HK is laissez faire and SG is strictly controlled.
in HK, you can do whatever you want that is not expressly forbidden.
in SG, you cannot do what is not expressly allowed.

But recent example like minibonds, where there is govt intervention seems to turn the position of HK and SG around. SG is now more laissez faire than HK, at least in the finance and banking sector.
What is the world coming to?

My thoughts:
SG govt wants to develop the finance and banking sector.
Right now the size of the sector in SG is smaller when compared to those in HK.
MAS position is: if SG put in stricter rules, why should financiers/bankers move to SG ?
That's why they allowed operators like Geneva Gold or Ecohouse or time-sharing. However MAS do their 2cents bit by putting them on Investor Alert List.
So it is a win-win for MAS : I allowed "shady" operators to grow the industry and I put these "shady" operators on the alert list, so I already give a warning to the investors. To those SOPHISTICATED investors, you are already aware of the risk, you die your tai chi.

on a side road again:
to the scammers, it is a low risk, high reward scheme.
to the investors, what appears to be a high risk, high reward scheme turns out to be high risk, no reward scheme.
as my old folks used to say, NOBODY will make money for you. If the returns are so good, they will eat it themselves and not share with you.

Back to MAS topic again:
So to grow the finance/banking sector, the rules will be less strict, like dual class shares.
afterall MAS also knows of this phrase:
"Capital goes where it's welcome and stays where it's well treated." --Walter B. Wriston

and how does this long winded post connect to mortgage documents again?
I see the end game as something like timesharing:
1) requirement to point out the catch-all clause to the mortgagee. banker to point out the clause and mortgagee to initial on the clause.
so now mortgagee aware of it already.
2) after sign the loi, can still back out within 2 weeks.

[BigBoy]

language is very powerful. "thereafter" and "throughout" is all subject to interpretaton.
To minimize errors, won't a table be better. it only adds an extra page to the letter of offer.
year 0: SIBOR + 0.65%.
year 1: SIBOR + 0.65%
..
..
year 29: SIBOR + 0.65%
year 30: SIBOR + 0.65%

or other versions like
year 0: SIBOR + 0.9%
year 1: SIBOR + 1.0%
year 2: SIBOR + 1.1%
..
..
year 29: SIBOR + 1.1%
year 30: SIBOR + 1.1%

As I said, this proposal only adds a page. But try proposing this format to your bankers. Outright rejection.
So what does this tells us about the word "throughout" and "thereafter" ?

edit: to minimise further misintepretation, in case they play with spread WITHIN the year.
year 0 (and the months within): SIBOR + 0.65%
year 1 (and the months within): SIBOR + 0.65%

I'm not affected at the moment as I'm still in the lock-in period.
I have in possession, a "Residential Property Loans Fact Sheet" that indicates the following,

Description of interest rate for loan:
1st year 1M Sibor + 0.75%
2nd year 1M Sibor + 0.75%
3rd year 1M Sibor + 0.75%
4th year and onwards 1M Sibor + 0.75%

Will this make my case stronger?

[teddybear]

May be you should heed the advice at this website?

I copy below for your quick reference:

Be careful with Citibank housing loan

I thought I was safe to sign up a 1 month sibor+0.6% housing loan with Citibank in 2011 for 25 years not to worrying about keep refinancing every two three years.

Two weeks ago, I received a surprise Citibank letter advising me that they have raised the interest spread to sibor + 0.85%. I wrote to complain about their unilateral move to increase the spread without my consent. They told me that in the loan agreement, there was a fine-print saying that Citibank has the right to increase the spread at their discretion! I was shocked as I never realized that a bank can do that with our housing loan. I hope this is just Citibank and not all banks in Singapore...

Anyway, since I complained, they offered me 2 options: (i) a slight improved rate at sibor +0.75% for 3 years then jumping to sibor +1.1% after OR (ii) stay with their latest increased spread of sibor +0.85% "forever" but they made no commitment that they would not change their spread again in the near future. Any advice on which option I should take or I have better options to refinance out from Citibank?

Be careful if you want to sign up new loans with Citibank...

I'm not affected at the moment as I'm still in the lock-in period.
I have in possession, a "Residential Property Loans Fact Sheet" that indicates the following,

Description of interest rate for loan:
1st year 1M Sibor + 0.75%
2nd year 1M Sibor + 0.75%
3rd year 1M Sibor + 0.75%
4th year and onwards 1M Sibor + 0.75%

Will this make my case stronger?

[teddybear]

You can read more about your options here at this website..............

I'm not affected at the moment as I'm still in the lock-in period.
I have in possession, a "Residential Property Loans Fact Sheet" that indicates the following,

Description of interest rate for loan:
1st year 1M Sibor + 0.75%
2nd year 1M Sibor + 0.75%
3rd year 1M Sibor + 0.75%
4th year and onwards 1M Sibor + 0.75%

Will this make my case stronger?

[MortgageGuru]

It doesn't help by playing with words around.
what bank does is still within legal framework is just that they seldom use this trump card in singapore context.
By making a big hooha complaining about it won't help much either, we're all adults, move on in life, seek a better alternatives.
one of my friend's loan with citi outstanding is worth 8 digit and he's been told by citi, if you're unhappy you can leave.
at the end of day, you should know what's best for you.

[teddybear]

People who are affected by Citibank UNILATERALLY changing their SIBOR loan spread may want to join forces the others also affected at this website....

I attach their Citibank's loan agreement below, see who else the same and also affected?

Took up a bank loan back in 2011 where the terms are 0.7% + 3 mths sibor perpetually. The bank just recently "notify" me that going forward, the rate will be 0.85% + 3 mths sibor instead.

Do check your loan carefully. The banks seems to be pulling a stunt on borrowers.

The Tnc as follows (I cut down on some unnecessary wordings which has no impact)
(d)
Contractual period 1 (for 1st year from date of disbursement) - 3 mths Sibor + 0.7%
Contractual period 2 (Thereafter) - 3 mths Sibor + 0.7%

(e) The minimum effective interest rate whall be 0.8% p.a.. Interest rates are all subject to review and may be adjusted from time to time depending on prevailing market conditions. The bank will not be giving advance notices to the Borrower for any changes in the interest rate

They are saying that even if they decide to change the spread to 10% or even 100% tomorrow, they can still do it.

Edit: Will be writing in to MAS and ABS on this matter. For those affected person, please PM me and see how we can submit a joint petition letter. In particular, on clause (e):



It is interesting to note that the second sentence "Interest rates are all subject to review and may be adjusted from time to time depending on prevailing market conditions." does not refer to Citibank at all. Thus, reading strictly by the rule, Citibank does not have the right to change the interest rate. The interest rate that will be changed is referring to Sibor.

Please see the images on the flyer and the loan agreement. there are other supporting documents which I will not be uploading at this point of time.

[teddybear]

So you admit that Citibank is playing around with words?
But Really we can't do anything to Citibank?
So Consumer Protection Fair Trade Act is for show?
Banks can unilaterally add any terms and conditions as they like that is agressively 1-sided and unfair?
MAS allows them to do that is it?

Well, we now know we should NEVER HAVE BUSINESS DEALING with Citibank!

Wow! Friends, General Election is coming!
You should know who to vote if MAS and CASE under PAP is not going to do anything!

It doesn't help by playing with words around.
what bank does is still within legal framework is just that they seldom use this trump card in singapore context.
By making a big hooha complaining about it won't help much either, we're all adults, move on in life, seek a better alternatives.
one of my friend's loan with citi outstanding is worth 8 digit and he's been told by citi, if you're unhappy you can leave.
at the end of day, you should know what's best for you.

[BigBoy]

People who are affected by Citibank UNILATERALLY changing their SIBOR loan spread may want to join forces the others also affected at this website....

I attach their Citibank's loan agreement below, see who else the same and also affected?

Maybe we can get a collective deal from other local banks.

[teddybear]

Luckily I am not affected, I am NOT a Citibank customer.

Luckily I ENDED all Citibank business dealing years ago BECAUSE I felt that their service is very lousy.....................

After this incident that Citibank UNILATERALLY change their LOAN spread to "+0.85%" despite stating clearly in their mortgage loan agreement that the interest rate to be charged is "SIBOR + 0.65%" (for example), I WILL NEVER BE A Citibank CUSTOMER AGAIN, NEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!

Maybe we can get a collective deal from other local banks.

[MortgageGuru]

So you admit that Citibank is playing around with words?
But Really we can't do anything to Citibank?
So Consumer Protection Fair Trade Act is for show?
Banks can unilaterally add any terms and conditions as they like that is agressively 1-sided and unfair?
MAS allows them to do that is it?

Well, we now know we should NEVER HAVE BUSINESS DEALING with Citibank!

Wow! Friends, General Election is coming!
You should know who to vote if MAS and CASE under PAP is not going to do anything!

borrowers can only blame itself for signing the loan with them when they took up the loan back then.
No point harping on now when it's stated clearly that they have the rights.

[teddybear]

Where in the agreement I shown that Citibank's mortgage loan agreement states that they have the right to change the spread unilaterally?
I did not see any clause stating that they have the right to change the spread UNILATERALLY!

Do all banks have the same T&C clause as Citibank?

borrowers can only blame itself for signing the loan with them when they took up the loan back then.
No point harping on now when it's stated clearly that they have the rights.

[hopeful]

Where in the agreement I shown that Citibank's mortgage loan agreement states that they have the right to change the spread unilaterally?
I did not see any clause stating that they have the right to change the spread UNILATERALLY!

Do all banks have the same T&C clause as Citibank?

teddy, are you really dumb or playing dumb?

[gavan]

I am one of the Citibank customer that is affected.
Yes, I want to go for collective loan with other bank
I created facebook group "Singapore home grouploan"
Welcome all person to join me and any interested borrower to join.
Hope grouploan work as well as groupbuy.
Cheers!!!

[amk]

Thank you teddybear for digging out the details. very very illustrative.

borrowers can only blame itself for signing the loan with them when they took up the loan back then.

I'm sorry but you are wrong here.
You still do not get it: all banks' T&C have rights that allow them to change all rates, whatever the main doc says.
The diff thus far is, only Citibank actually is doing it now.
This practice alone must be condemned. and the public must be educated that banks T&C indeed allow them to do whatever they want.
what teddybear is championing, and I agree, is to force MAS to impose ABS to stop such unfair terms.

"blame yourself for signing the loan" ? There is no option to customers today. At most you say "blame yourself for trusting Citibank".

You are a mortgage broker. You do represent Citi too, do you ? Imagine one day your client tell you "how come you sold me this fixed rate mortgage 2yrs ago now bank say it can change the rate now", and you say "blame yourself for signing the loan" ?

You did not see the severity of this situation. This is a precedence that should really be prominently flashed out and stopped.

[amk]

just had a quick read on the hardwarezone thread. as expected many members there dun know what they're talking about. Some one even said the contract is for 3ys only. and clearly all of them didn't even read the T&C.

I dun have a hwz account. Can someone help to post the Citi T&C link in hwz, and point out to the very 1st line, i.e. 1.1 bank have the rights to revises rates from time to time. This line alone covers banks completely.

Citi is playing with words so it does not have to explicitly tell the world it can do whatever it wants anyway. (yes hopeful that's a bone thrown out now)

[gavan]

I am one of the Citibank customer that is affected.
Yes, I want to go for collective loan with other bank
I created facebook group "Singapore home grouploan"
https://www.facebook.com/groups/668115326654609/

Welcome all to join me and any interested borrower to join.
Hope grouploan work as well as groupbuy.
Cheers!!!

[teddybear]

@amk,
I can see the serverity of the situation!
I believe every bank in Singapore is watching Citibank's pre-cursor of raising the spread closely. I suppose they are thinking that if Citibank can get away with it, then they could also copy Citibank as well! Basically, almost every bank would like to do it to increase their profits BUT none dare to do it first, until Citibank now..................
That is why when the journalist ask the other banks insiders/officials etc, they are all supporting Citibank by saying they have the right to adjust the spread blah blah blah!!!!!!!!!!!

All Singaporeans who own properties and having existing mortgage loans out there, better watch out! Don't think that it is Citibank and doesn't concern you, soon or later you will get hit as well if Citibank can get away with it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Who is in charge of Monetary Authority of Singapore? Is it Minister of Finance, who is Tharman now?
May be your friend can write to him see whether he will act or not?

If no government body willing to act, I suppose we consumers have to ACT with our VOTE in coming General Election???????????

Thank you teddybear for digging out the details. very very illustrative.



I'm sorry but you are wrong here.
You still do not get it: all banks' T&C have rights that allow them to change all rates, whatever the main doc says.
The diff thus far is, only Citibank actually is doing it now.
This practice alone must be condemned. and the public must be educated that banks T&C indeed allow them to do whatever they want.
what teddybear is championing, and I agree, is to force MAS to impose ABS to stop such unfair terms.

"blame yourself for signing the loan" ? There is no option to customers today. At most you say "blame yourself for trusting Citibank".

You are a mortgage broker. You do represent Citi too, do you ? Imagine one day your client tell you "how come you sold me this fixed rate mortgage 2yrs ago now bank say it can change the rate now", and you say "blame yourself for signing the loan" ?

You did not see the severity of this situation. This is a precedence that should really be prominently flashed out and stopped.