Global recession is coming....
Hah, when the truth is that CPF Life's return is like = 0.12% p.a., people now want to twist into CASH on CASH and then CLAIM "6.3%" Guaranteed CPF Life's return!
If this is not "ALTERNATIVE FACT" what is it???
As we know, "ALTERNATIVE FACT", just like "HALF-TRUTH", contains BIG FAT LIE......
Originally Posted by Ilikeu
Newbie
What is it? Still dun get it?
It is cash on cash, troll!
Global recession is coming....
Wow! More plucking of numbers out of thin air?
(1) You claimed: "If must use the standard plan with bequest up to 85, the payout is around 1320 per month. An 82 year old fulfils the criteria of 75 to 85 and is still eligible to bequest of 43K+ onwards."
Please show how you obtain the figure of bequest being $43k+ onwards for CPF Life "Standard Plan" at Age of 82 for full retirement sum of $161,000?
(2) You claimed: "All these taken together do allow the returns to push to 6% and beyond."
Please show how you obtain the 6% and beyond for CPF Life's return?
I don't need you to derive formula (like what minority demanded), just show us the inputs, outputs, and you can point us to online calculator to do the calculations based on these inputs you quoted.
I will be very delighted for anybody to show CONCRETE EVIDENCE that CPF Life's return is indeed 6% and beyond!
Please show lah, convince us, don't just EMPTY TALK and tell half-truth and FALSEHOODS and LIES...........
Last edited by teddybear; 12-02-17 at 22:57.
Senior
Lol!!! The Alternative Fact Master have spoken !
“Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.”
― Martin Luther King, Jr.
OUT WITH THE SHIT TRASH
https://www.facebook.com/shutdowntrs
Global recession is coming....
I know know, it is even MONEY dropped from the Sky and people don't even have to pay for it!
Global recession is coming....
minority,
Why don't you just us show how you obtain the 6% and beyond for CPF Life's return? This is like the 20th time I am asking you the SAME QUESTION!
I don't need you to derive formula (like what you demanded of me), just show us the inputs, outputs, and you can point us to online calculator to do the calculations based on these inputs you quoted.
I will be very delighted for anybody to show CONCRETE EVIDENCE that CPF Life's return is indeed 6% and beyond!
Why is it that there are so much EMPTY talks and "Alternative Facts" from minority, ilikeu and kelonguni, BUT yet NONE can show how they arrive at 4% or 6.3% etc???
Please show lah, convince us, don't just keep giving EMPTY TALK and tell half-truth and FALSEHOODS and LIES (without showing us the evidence to backup your claims)...........[/QUOTE]
Senior
[/QUOTE]minority,
Why don't you just us show how you obtain the 6% and beyond for CPF Life's return? This is like the 20th time I am asking you the SAME QUESTION!
I don't need you to derive formula (like what you demanded of me), just show us the inputs, outputs, and you can point us to online calculator to do the calculations based on these inputs you quoted.
I will be very delighted for anybody to show CONCRETE EVIDENCE that CPF Life's return is indeed 6% and beyond!
Why is it that there are so much EMPTY talks and "Alternative Facts" from minority, ilikeu and kelonguni, BUT yet NONE can show how they arrive at 4% or 6.3% etc???
Please show lah, convince us, don't just keep giving EMPTY TALK and tell half-truth and FALSEHOODS and LIES (without showing us the evidence to backup your claims)...........
As usual perpetually Lying. PLS SHOW ME PROOF WHERE I SAY CPF PAY 6%? PLS SHOW ME? SOME ONE WRITE A ARTICLE U SAY I SAY ITS 6%? SHOW ME PROOF I SAY ANYTHING ON THAT? BLOODY LIAR!
LETS GET YOUR BLOODY FACT RIGHT
https://www.cpf.gov.sg/Members/Schem...ent-sum-scheme
55th birthday on or after Full Retirement Sum
1 January 2017 $166,000
https://www.cpf.gov.sg/eSvc/Web/Sche...ayoutEstimator
Go use the calculator yourself and punch in the age of a Male 55 yr old today. i.e. 1962 with the RA of $166,000
OUT COME!
Plan LIFE Basic
Monthly payout from 65 $1,192 - $1,318
Bequest left for your beneficiaries at selected ages
Bequest at age 65 $243,577 - $254,555
Bequest at age 75 $183,014 - $194,138
Bequest at age 85 $94,951 - $101,950
Bequest at age 95 $0
SO DONT COME AND LIE AT 85 NO BEQUEST!
at age 55 RA OF $166,00
from AGE 65 to 82 ( 17 yrs) drawing $1200 pm = $244,800
DIES at 82!( Like you say sure die one!) BEQUEST = $94,951
TOTAL $$$ = $244,800 + $94,951 = $339751
GO DO YOUR BLOODY MATHS!!! WHAT IS THE return for 27yrs!!! ( 55 to 82) with a MIN SUM OF $166,000????
LET ME HELP YOU WITH UR FAILED MATHS!!!
(339,751/166,000)*100=204% and for 27ys! what you get ~7.5%!
YOU PROPERLY KNOW BUT PERPETUALLY LIE ABOUT IT! YOUR ALTERNATIVE FACTS BS!
“Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.”
― Martin Luther King, Jr.
OUT WITH THE SHIT TRASH
https://www.facebook.com/shutdowntrs
Newbie
You have great intelligence to define cash on cash as money dropped from the sky.
Ultimate Underdog
Haven't even included the bequest amount.
161K at 65 years old, assumed to live till 82 years old.
Wow! More plucking of numbers out of thin air?
(1) You claimed: "If must use the standard plan with bequest up to 85, the payout is around 1320 per month. An 82 year old fulfils the criteria of 75 to 85 and is still eligible to bequest of 43K+ onwards."
Please show how you obtain the figure of bequest being $43k+ onwards for CPF Life "Standard Plan" at Age of 82 for full retirement sum of $161,000?
(2) You claimed: "All these taken together do allow the returns to push to 6% and beyond."
Please show how you obtain the 6% and beyond for CPF Life's return?
I don't need you to derive formula (like what minority demanded), just show us the inputs, outputs, and you can point us to online calculator to do the calculations based on these inputs you quoted.
I will be very delighted for anybody to show CONCRETE EVIDENCE that CPF Life's return is indeed 6% and beyond!
Please show lah, convince us, don't just EMPTY TALK and tell half-truth and FALSEHOODS and LIES...........
The three laws of Kelonguni:
Where there is kelong, there is guni.
No kelong no guni.
More kelong = more guni.
Newbie
RA $166,000 at age 55
CPF Life Basic
Death at 65 years old ~4.1%
Death at 75 years old ~3.8%
Death at 85 years old ~3.7%
Death at 95 years old ~4.2%
Note: Lower bound figures were used, IRR is higher if mid or upper bound figures are used, and if payout adjusted to reflect (begin or end month) vs annual etc.
Yield or return is a generic term. Can have IRR, cash on cash or undiscounted etc among others which are some of the key financial ratios/parameters, each serving its own useful purpose and interpretation, important thing is compare apple to apple.
Global recession is coming....
minority,
Wow! Your twist and turn and shift goal post damned bloody fast!
I am talking about CPF Life's "Standard" payout and Bequest being ZERO at Age 78 years old and NOW you switch to talking about CPF Life's "Basic" payout??????????
And instead of "CPF Life's 6.3% return" in the article you posted, Now you can manipulate to claim that CPF Life gives "7.5% return"!!!
Wow!
As you said, "Garbage in" "Garbage out", the same can be said about your "CPF Life's 7.5% return", the "ALTERNATIVE FACT 7.5% return"!
minority,
Come come, please answer my question and beat around the bush and shift goal post again!
Please show us for CPF Life's "Standard" payout so that we can have meaningful conversation and can compare to my calculation because there is no way I can compare my "Apple" ("Standard" payout scheme) to your "Orange" ("Basic" payout scheme)! No point for me to recalculate CPF Life's "Basic" payout because you will start to shift goal post again!!!
Furthermore, our interest is to know, what is the CPF Life's return from 65 years old onwards, since from 55 to 65 is already known and during this period payout has not started, so why you trying shift goal post again by lumping in the period from Age 55 to 65???
minority,
You DON'T can come BULLSHIT us with your FAKE calculation of RETURN!
Let's see how you calculate your "7.5% return":
Wow minority,
Your calculation of return is so FAKE!
Nobody will call the way you calculate as a real return! Why? Let me show why it is FAKED!
(A) We all know that CPF Life Retirement Sum = $161,000 at Age 55.
According the CPF announcement at this URL:
https://www.gov.sg/~/sgpcmedia/media...ber%202017.pdf
" CPF members aged 55 and above will also earn an additional 1% extra interest on the first $30,000 of their combined
balances (with up to $20,000 from the OA) from January 2016. This is paid over and above the current extra 1%
interest that is earned on the first $60,000 of their combined balances. As a result, CPF members aged 55 and above
will earn up to 6% interest per year on their retirement balances. "
To summarize the above: CPF states that it pays 6% for your first $30,000 in your Retirement Account (RA), and 5% for your next $30,000 in your RA, and 4% for the remaining amount!
So, at Age 65, CPF will pay you = S$251,000.
minority,
Let's try to calculate CPF Retirement Account's interest rate based on your way of calculations:
Total at 65 Years Old = 251,000
Starting figure at 55 Years Old = 161,000
minority's method of interest/return calculation =
(251,000/161,000)*100=155.9% and for 10ys! what you get ~15.59% !!!!
Wow! minority, you should teach CPF how to announce and FAKE their interest paid to us!
You should teach CPF to calculate the interest rate they pay us based on your calculation method, then they can CLAIM that they pay us "15.59% interest"!!!
Otherwise, CPF is now claiming that they only pay "4-6%" interest for your retirement account money which is pathetic compared to the "15.59% interest" based on your calculation method!!!
Ha ha ha! We can all laugh until we fell off the chair!!!
Wow! Can't believe there are so much attempts make up stories, make up "ALTERNATIVE FACT 6.3% return", "PONZI 7.5% return" etc for CPF Life to confuse laymen in order to hide the true CPF Life's return from them!!!
So, I think what you said fits you very well:
Ha ha ha!YOU PROPERLY KNOW BUT PERPETUALLY LIE ABOUT IT! YOUR ALTERNATIVE FACTS BS!
minority,
Why don't you just us show how you obtain the 6% and beyond for CPF Life's return? This is like the 20th time I am asking you the SAME QUESTION!
I don't need you to derive formula (like what you demanded of me), just show us the inputs, outputs, and you can point us to online calculator to do the calculations based on these inputs you quoted.
I will be very delighted for anybody to show CONCRETE EVIDENCE that CPF Life's return is indeed 6% and beyond!
Why is it that there are so much EMPTY talks and "Alternative Facts" from minority, ilikeu and kelonguni, BUT yet NONE can show how they arrive at 4% or 6.3% etc???
Please show lah, convince us, don't just keep giving EMPTY TALK and tell half-truth and FALSEHOODS and LIES (without showing us the evidence to backup your claims)...........
Global recession is coming....
Cash on cash for money you take back from an annuity scheme considered YOUR RETURN???
Wow! That must have been this year's best "ALTERNATIVE FACT"'s highlight!!!
Let's read again what that Walker guy claimed:
Let me give you an analogy similar to that author and you claimed as the "6.3% return" given by CPF Life, which is really an "ALTERNATIVE FACT 6.3% return" return or "Ponzi 6.3% return":(a) for a man aged 55 today and setting aside the Basic Retirement Sum of SG$80,500.
(b) Value of set aside after 10 years' growth: $125,000 (a growth rate of around 4.5% p.a.)
(c) Monthly payout for life commencing age 65: $660-720
(d) If we use the lowest monthly income figure of $660, that’s $7,920 per annum; i.e. a payout rate of 6.3%. That’s 1.5% better than the equivalent figure for the best available annuity in the UK (4.8%), or about 2.5% better if UK basic rate tax is due. The CPF Life payout rate is also as good or better than rates across numerous other countries including Australia, Netherlands, USA, and Canada.
(e) CPF Life can be seen as an investment product with a guaranteed return (better than 4%), with proceeds going to your heirs in event of your early demise.
(4) In comparison, the CPF Life guaranteed rate of 6%+ looks attractive.
a) You pay $80,500 to me and you get nothing back for 10 years, and at the end of 10 years I promised to give you $125,000.
b) After 10 years, from the pot of $125,000 you supposedly own, I pay you back $660 per month or $7,920 p.a. from that pot of money (that really belonged to you!). Furthermore, you will get nothing from Age 78 onwards (similar to the Bequest being ZERO)).
c) I claimed the interest I paid you and YOUR RETURN is = 7920 / 125,000 = 6.3% !!!
That is "guaranteed rate of 6%+ looks attractive" (in his words!). Yes, that is what the author and minority and you want us to believe: Your CPF Life's return is "6.3%" guaranteed!!!
Oh REALLY?
Your ruse and of that author and minority is only good to trick the financially illiterate!
Your so-called "cash on cash return" of 6.3% for an annuity where you get ZERO money back at the end of the period is just PLAIN BULLSHIT because YOU IGNORE 3 facts:
1) The $7,290 p.a. paid to you by CPF Life are not fully interests, but contain returning your own money. That is to say, You are basically getting back part of your money from your pot of $125,000 (that you owned in name) but forcefully withheld by CPF Life!
A similar analogy can drawn as being akin to the famous "PONZI" scheme where you deposit say $1000,000 of your money with PONZI operator and they promised to pay you back $20,000 pm or $240,000 per year or a RETURN = (240,000/1000,000) = 24.0% p.a. and still promise to return you your money of $1000,000 after say 10 years. Well, as we know, they may pay you 24% p.a. initially for say 2 years and they disappear with the rest of the money (akin to Bequest = ZERO) AND can you still claim the PONZI operator gives you 24% p.a.? (Not that I say CPF Life is a "PONZI" scheme, just that I am trying to make an illustration and draw analogy to the CLAIM by the author and minority! What I mean is that the "6.3% return" claim by that author (and minority and you) is a "PONZI 6.3% return", just like the PONZI operator claiming that they pay you 24% p.a. return for the money you deposited with them!!!)
2) You neglect to include the interests you are supposed to earn from your pot of $125,000 that has been forcefully withheld from returning to you!
3) You get back NOTHING at the end of the annuity period! (Bequest = ZERO!)
ONLY when you can still get back your whole pot of $125,000 at the end of certain period then is the "6.3% return" valid! Otherwise if Bequest = ZERO, the "6.3% return" is not valid, it depends on how old you can live to (which the author conveniently neglect or purposely refuse to mention!)
So, there you goes, the so-claimed guaranteed "6.3%" return from CPF Life is really a "PONZI 6.3% return" or "ALTERNATIVE FACT 6.3% return"!!!
If you still don't understand what I said in above, please ask, don't be shy!!!
Then you won't continue to claim the 6.3% to be real return, regardless of what you claimed as "cash on cash 6.3% return" or "ALTERNATIVE FACT 6.3% return" or really it is "PONZI 6.3% return"!
Newbie
Long story short.
You simply do not understand what is cash on cash and what is its useful interpretion.
Global recession is coming....
Kelonguni,
Your computation as shown in "Annuity.jpg" is really laughable!
I don't know whether you are really financially ILLITERATE or you are just trying make a mockery of us and trying to LIE and bullshit us (as though we are stupid idiot)!
Let me explain why so!
In "FRS.jpg", you shows "FULL RETIREMENT SUM: $161,000" for the CPF Life "Standard" payout plan.
In "Annuity.jpg" you key in:
Present Value: 161000
Payment: 1320
Time Period: 204
As minority said, "Garbage in" so "Garbage out"! This applies to you what you did very well!
Hello, the "$161,000" is the CPF Full Retirement Sum", which you need to deposit with CPF Life at Age 55 years old.
You are promised 4% interest paid by CPF, with an extra 1% for the first $60,000, and an additional extra 1% for the first $30,000.
So, at Age 65, you should get = S$251,000.
Time Period = 204 Months = 17 years from 65 Years old,
so 65 + 17 = 82 years old (this is the assumed age you live to!)
So, why you input "Present Value" = 161,000 which is your money at 55 years old???
You should input "Present Value" = $251,000 which is the money you supposedly owned at Age 65 !!!
Why you steal away 251,000-161,000 = $90,000 and then claim that we get VERY HIGH RETURN?!
Oh my gosh!
I suggest you really should SHUT UP and get your FACTS right first before sprouting NONESENSE!!!
Global recession is coming....
ok ok, I only understand that it is a term used to inflate the real CPF Life's return by you...
because the author didn't use "cash on cash" term... Instead he said "CPF Life guaranteed rate of 6%+ looks attractive" :
(e) CPF Life can be seen as an investment product with a guaranteed return (better than 4%), with proceeds going to your heirs in event of your early demise.
(4) In comparison, the CPF Life guaranteed rate of 6%+ looks attractive.
Newbie
$251k by age 65?
Go and read up what is the drawdown schedule for the cpf life plan.
Newbie
Yes only an ignorant savvy guy like u would misinterprete.
Ultimate Underdog
Nope. I presented whatever the table gave.
The discrepancy in what you think ($251,000) and mine ($161,000) lies in our interpretations.
I had assumed the person starts to draw down at 65 years with exactly $161,000.
If the person is 55 years old with $161,000 and 10 years to go before retirement (in your scenario), he would like you mentioned, have $251,000 when he retires 10 years later. But his monthly payout will be much higher than $1,320 per month.
Unless you are telling me the table from ST is lying outright.
The three laws of Kelonguni:
Where there is kelong, there is guni.
No kelong no guni.
More kelong = more guni.
Global recession is coming....
If at Age 55 you deposit $161k into CPF Retirement Account,
and According to the CPF announcement at this URL:
https://www.gov.sg/~/sgpcmedia/media...ber%202017.pdf
CPF states that it pays 6% for your first $30,000 in your Retirement Account (RA), and 5% for your next $30,000 in your RA, and 4% for the remaining amount!
And at Age 65 the figure is NOT $251k then what is it??? Please enlighten us....
Global recession is coming....
What you said make no sense to me...
Where in the table by ST shows $161,000 at 65 years old???
Then how much he need to put in at 55 years old to get $161,000 at 65 years old???
You mean CPF Full Retirement Sum at 55 years old is NOW much less than $161,000 ???
Wow! I remember they just announced that CPF Full Retirement Sum at 55 years old has been raised to $166,000 (from $161,000 which is that figure stated in ST table)!!!
Last edited by teddybear; 13-02-17 at 12:23.
Newbie
Alternatively, u are good in online calculator thingy. U can use the cpf one.
If at Age 55 you deposit $161k into CPF Retirement Account,
and According to the CPF announcement at this URL:
https://www.gov.sg/~/sgpcmedia/media...ber%202017.pdf
CPF states that it pays 6% for your first $30,000 in your Retirement Account (RA), and 5% for your next $30,000 in your RA, and 4% for the remaining amount!
And at Age 65 the figure is NOT $251k then what is it??? Please enlighten us....
Global recession is coming....
Please give us the URL to the calculator then that can calculate input at age 55 = $161,000 and give us the final figure at age 65 for CPF paid interest of 6% for first $30k, 5% for next $30k, and remaining at 4%....
Ultimate Underdog
Relax bro.
I might be wrong in the calculations as still quite far away from that stage. My preference for funds is also not that much in CPF, and I relish the opportunity to see what it really means.
But there is also a bequeath amount to consider as well.
Thanks for the challenge so I can confirm the understanding when I reach that stage.
What you said make no sense to me...
Where in the table by ST shows $161,000 at 65 years old???
Then how much he need to put in at 55 years old to get $161,000 at 65 years old???
The three laws of Kelonguni:
Where there is kelong, there is guni.
No kelong no guni.
More kelong = more guni.
Newbie
Minority had already given the link in his earlier post.
Global recession is coming....
This one you mean?
https://www.cpf.gov.sg/eSvc/Web/Sche...ayoutEstimator
No, it says NOTHING about what you are trying to confirm...
So, Age 55 has $161k in CPF Retirement Account.
Age 65 how much should you have?
Online calculator or Excel spreadsheet please (since you dispute my figure of $251k)...
Newbie
That is the link.
If you dun know how to interprete the results, dun say it is not there.
Global recession is coming....
Ok i see, since there is no where in that link that says the amount you are entitled to at Age 65, and given that CPF already specifically states how much interest they will pay for your Retirement Account money,
if at Age 55 your RA has $161,000,
Then my calculation is that at Age 65, CPF owes you = $251,000 is CORRECT and you have no proof to dispute my figure of $251k.......
I stand to be correct with FACTs, NO EMPTY TALK please........
No PONZI interest rate please.......
Newbie
You still have no idea how to interprete the results generated by the cpf calculator.
It is there!!!
Ok i see, since there is no where in that link that says the amount you are entitled to at Age 65, and given that CPF already specifically states how much interest they will pay for your Retirement Account money,
if at Age 55 your RA has $161,000,
Then my calculation is that at Age 65, CPF owes you = $251,000 is CORRECT and you have no proof to dispute my figure of $251k.......
I stand to be correct with FACTs, NO EMPTY TALK please........
No PONZI interest rate please.......
Global recession is coming....
Wow!
More EMPTY TALK and bullshit ruse.......
Hei Look there, the answer is there!
Hei look behind, the answer is there!
Hei look right, the answer is there!
Hei you stupid, the answer is there, it is just you don't know how to interpret!!!
Does this sound familiar? Ha ha ha! Typical minority tactic that you are using!
Why ilikeu behaving more and more like minority???
Newbie
Ok... give up?
U dun want the satisfaction of finding out yourself?
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