Page 2 of 11 FirstFirst 1234567 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 60 of 305

Thread: Leasehold versus Freehold - the Comparison Continues (2016)

  1. #31
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    4,035

    Default

    The recent Central Imperial MM transaction of 470K highlights another potentially confounding issue in this debate.

    FH value can grow better and faster only if there are no microlocation issues.

    Maybe an equally priced, similarly sized 99LH at an equal macrolocation but no microlocation issues (say Kallang or something) in 2011 can outrun the FH with microlocation issues by now?

    Any big data expert on this?
    The three laws of Kelonguni:

    Where there is kelong, there is guni.
    No kelong no guni.
    More kelong = more guni.

  2. #32
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Southbank
    Posts
    9,531

    Default

    Don't need big data, rent collected must be higher or equal to mortgage loan servicing. Otherwise income must be able to top up the difference. Call saving.

  3. #33
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    4,035

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcachon View Post
    Don't need big data, rent collected must be higher or equal to mortgage loan servicing. Otherwise income must be able to top up the difference. Call saving.
    That is definitely true but applicable to both FH and LH.

    The more interesting analysis is to compare them right now when market rentals are depressed.

    Then if market goes worse check again. When and if market recovers we can compare one more time.

    Then everyone has a better understanding of what it means to have FH versus LH.
    The three laws of Kelonguni:

    Where there is kelong, there is guni.
    No kelong no guni.
    More kelong = more guni.

  4. #34
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Posts
    169

    Default

    sometimes i confuse on HDB valuation. People seem to believe the LH does not matter for HDB.

    For example:
    HDB at 53 Geylang Bahru, size 1259 sqft, built in 1974, sold for 635,000.
    Private apartment Textile Centre, size 1163 sqft, TOP in 1970, sold for 700,000.

    Both are 3 bedrooms, almost comparable size, but quantum wise is quite close.

  5. #35
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    4,035

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomutomi View Post
    sometimes i confuse on HDB valuation. People seem to believe the LH does not matter for HDB.

    For example:
    HDB at 53 Geylang Bahru, size 1259 sqft, built in 1974, sold for 635,000.
    Private apartment Textile Centre, size 1163 sqft, TOP in 1970, sold for 700,000.

    Both are 3 bedrooms, almost comparable size, but quantum wise is quite close.
    700K single transaction may not be so accurate. Many around 800K. So actual valuation should be 750K.

    Investment needs easier to convince to let go, but HDB near central are regarded as homes generally. That's my guess.

    Anyway LH apartments at 45 year mark every few year affect the mortgage amount and TDSR a lot.
    The three laws of Kelonguni:

    Where there is kelong, there is guni.
    No kelong no guni.
    More kelong = more guni.

  6. #36
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Southbank
    Posts
    9,531

    Default

    HDB valuation now is according to willing buyer and willing seller, it use to be under HDB controlled Valuation.

  7. #37
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Posts
    169

    Default

    How people value the freehold property assuming looking for capital appreciation?

    We know developer does not need to top up when en bloc FH, so should FH land value is comparable to recent GLS 99 LH around that area?

    If assessing from underutilized GFA, then it does not matter FH or LH.

  8. #38
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    4,035

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcachon View Post
    HDB valuation now is according to willing buyer and willing seller, it use to be under HDB controlled Valuation.
    True but need to qualify for Loan quantum still.
    The three laws of Kelonguni:

    Where there is kelong, there is guni.
    No kelong no guni.
    More kelong = more guni.

  9. #39
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    4,035

    Default

    How one values is different from how another values. And how the master landlord allows everyone to value the property is important as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomutomi View Post
    How people value the freehold property assuming looking for capital appreciation?

    We know developer does not need to top up when en bloc FH, so should FH land value is comparable to recent GLS 99 LH around that area?

    If assessing from underutilized GFA, then it does not matter FH or LH.
    The three laws of Kelonguni:

    Where there is kelong, there is guni.
    No kelong no guni.
    More kelong = more guni.

  10. #40
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Posts
    169

    Default

    This recent article provides some answers to my questions .

    https://zuuonline.sg/investment/real...-in-singapore/


    Quote Originally Posted by Tomutomi View Post
    How people value the freehold property assuming looking for capital appreciation?

    We know developer does not need to top up when en bloc FH, so should FH land value is comparable to recent GLS 99 LH around that area?

    If assessing from underutilized GFA, then it does not matter FH or LH.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomutomi View Post
    sometimes i confuse on HDB valuation. People seem to believe the LH does not matter for HDB.

    For example:
    HDB at 53 Geylang Bahru, size 1259 sqft, built in 1974, sold for 635,000.
    Private apartment Textile Centre, size 1163 sqft, TOP in 1970, sold for 700,000.

    Both are 3 bedrooms, almost comparable size, but quantum wise is quite close.

  11. #41
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    4,035

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomutomi View Post
    This recent article provides some answers to my questions .

    https://zuuonline.sg/investment/real...-in-singapore/

    Yah still in line with loan quantum and how much master landlord allows to value, But it's a good summary!
    The three laws of Kelonguni:

    Where there is kelong, there is guni.
    No kelong no guni.
    More kelong = more guni.

  12. #42
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    9,217

    Default

    People always go for limited edition when they buy things. Just follow the same principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelonguni View Post
    Yah still in line with loan quantum and how much master landlord allows to value, But it's a good summary!

  13. #43
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Posts
    169

    Default

    every single development is somehow unique ?

    Quote Originally Posted by DC33_2008 View Post
    People always go for limited edition when they buy things. Just follow the same principle.

  14. #44
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    9,217

    Default

    You are not wrong. You should observe the general price trend of properties older than 20 years between FH and LH in the same vicinity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomutomi View Post
    every single development is somehow unique ?

  15. #45
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    4,035

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomutomi View Post
    every single development is somehow unique ?
    He means, you think which is rarer and get that which is rarer if it's within budget and meets your needs equally.

    But being new can also be rare.
    The three laws of Kelonguni:

    Where there is kelong, there is guni.
    No kelong no guni.
    More kelong = more guni.

  16. #46
    teddybear's Avatar
    teddybear is offline Global recession is coming....
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    10,800

    Default

    New is rare?

    Oh I can see that new developments now come with usable area that is only 80% or even less of the total floor area you paid for (like super big air-con ledge, planter areas, balconies etc), and with inferior furnishings, worksmanship, quality, 1 small swimming to serve 600+ or more units, also 1 tennis court or even NONE for the same 600+ units, 1 small gym etc..........
    These attributes are also rare indeed compared to older condos!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelonguni View Post
    He means, you think which is rarer and get that which is rarer if it's within budget and meets your needs equally.

    But being new can also be rare.

  17. #47
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    4,035

    Default

    Hehe relax.

    Anyway new is a temporary thing. All condos age one day anyway

    So marry an old lady as they all age someday. Honestly, if Vivian Chow I am perfectly fine with the rarity.

    Quote Originally Posted by teddybear View Post
    New is rare?

    Oh I can see that new developments now come with usable area that is only 80% or even less of the total floor area you paid for (like super big air-con ledge, planter areas, balconies etc), and with inferior furnishings, worksmanship, quality, 1 small swimming to serve 600+ or more units, also 1 tennis court or even NONE for the same 600+ units, 1 small gym etc..........
    These attributes are also rare indeed compared to older condos!
    Last edited by Kelonguni; 06-12-16 at 21:31.
    The three laws of Kelonguni:

    Where there is kelong, there is guni.
    No kelong no guni.
    More kelong = more guni.

  18. #48
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Posts
    169

    Default

    Vivian still look good even at 30 or 50.
    Condo aged 20 years feel like in their mid age oready

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelonguni View Post
    Hehe relax.

    Anyway new is a temporary thing. All condos age one day anyway

    So marry an old lady as they all age someday. Honestly, if Vivian Chow I am perfectly fine with the rarity.

  19. #49
    teddybear's Avatar
    teddybear is offline Global recession is coming....
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    10,800

    Default

    That is why you have to look at the "inherent beauty" (like Freehold or Leasehold) lol!

    E.g. Leasehold at 50 years old, wow! VERY VERY FEW even want to buy!
    Freehold at 50 years old, their market value is as good as relatively new leasehold.........

    So simple many of the others here don't understand? (Or refuse to acknowledge otherwise they scared they will be unable to flip their leasehold aging "babies" since people understand and don't want to buy from them???)
    And there are those who cite SLA saying 20 years old 99-years Leasehold property has value that is only 8% below Freehold?
    Ha ha ha! Think think think!
    99 Years leasehold, left 79 years, means value is only 79/99 = 80% of a NEW Leasehold nia! (and not comparable to Freehold)!
    If they can, they will also want to tell you 50 years old 99-years Leasehold could have value that is only 10% below freehold (so that you all can just buy 99-years Leasehold since Gov don't want to sell you Freehold!)


    Quote Originally Posted by Tomutomi View Post
    Vivian still look good even at 30 or 50.
    Condo aged 20 years feel like in their mid age oready

  20. #50
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    4,035

    Default

    Please pay attention TB.

    Both these examples show contrary to what you are saying.

    In fact, future GLS will all be 99LH. Industrial shortened to 30yr LH but still have the same demand and price.

    Even Hillford PC sold with 55 years left after TOP was fully sold out in 1 day.



    Quote Originally Posted by Tomutomi View Post
    sometimes i confuse on HDB valuation. People seem to believe the LH does not matter for HDB.

    For example:
    HDB at 53 Geylang Bahru, size 1259 sqft, built in 1974, sold for 635,000.
    Private apartment Textile Centre, size 1163 sqft, TOP in 1970, sold for 700,000.

    Both are 3 bedrooms, almost comparable size, but quantum wise is quite close.

    Quote Originally Posted by teddybear View Post
    That is why you have to look at the "inherent beauty" (like Freehold or Leasehold) lol!

    E.g. Leasehold at 50 years old, wow! VERY VERY FEW even want to buy!
    Freehold at 50 years old, their market value is as good as relatively new leasehold.........

    So simple many of the others here don't understand? (Or refuse to acknowledge otherwise they scared they will be unable to flip their leasehold aging "babies" since people understand and don't want to buy from them???)
    And there are those who cite SLA saying 20 years old 99-years Leasehold property has value that is only 8% below Freehold?
    Ha ha ha! Think think think!
    99 Years leasehold, left 79 years, means value is only 79/99 = 80% of a NEW Leasehold nia! (and not comparable to Freehold)!
    If they can, they will also want to tell you 50 years old 99-years Leasehold could have value that is only 10% below freehold (so that you all can just buy 99-years Leasehold since Gov don't want to sell you Freehold!)
    The three laws of Kelonguni:

    Where there is kelong, there is guni.
    No kelong no guni.
    More kelong = more guni.

  21. #51
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Southbank
    Posts
    9,531

    Default

    One's man meat is another poison

  22. #52
    teddybear's Avatar
    teddybear is offline Global recession is coming....
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    10,800

    Default

    Both examples are 99-years leasehold properties, and as with all 99-years leasehold properties, at the end of their 99-years lease, their values will all GO TO ZEROoooooooooooooo..........

    In fact, their values should actually be NEGATIVE because owners need to forked out money to engage contractors to tear down and clear the buildings and return just empty land to the government (and not with the expired buildings still standing on the land and just return to the government with the buildings on it)!

    So, no contradiction about my comment at all!


    Quote Originally Posted by Kelonguni View Post
    Please pay attention TB.

    Both these examples show contrary to what you are saying.

    In fact, future GLS will all be 99LH. Industrial shortened to 30yr LH but still have the same demand and price.

    Even Hillford PC sold with 55 years left after TOP was fully sold out in 1 day.

  23. #53
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    4,035

    Default

    Sg cars also 10 year lease but even left 1 year leasehold is worth something.

    Get it?

    Quote Originally Posted by teddybear View Post
    Both examples are 99-years leasehold properties, and as with all 99-years leasehold properties, at the end of their 99-years lease, their values will all GO TO ZEROoooooooooooooo..........

    In fact, their values should actually be NEGATIVE because owners need to forked out money to engage contractors to tear down and clear the buildings and return just empty land to the government (and not with the expired buildings still standing on the land and just return to the government with the buildings on it)!

    So, no contradiction about my comment at all!
    The three laws of Kelonguni:

    Where there is kelong, there is guni.
    No kelong no guni.
    More kelong = more guni.

  24. #54
    teddybear's Avatar
    teddybear is offline Global recession is coming....
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    10,800

    Default

    As you said "Cars" wah, can 't see how cars can be compared to properties???
    Do you have 99-years leasehold cars?
    Can you buy a car at $500,000 and sell at $1,000,000 10 years later?


    Quote Originally Posted by Kelonguni View Post
    Sg cars also 10 year lease but even left 1 year leasehold is worth something.

    Get it?

  25. #55
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    4,035

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by teddybear View Post
    As you said "Cars" wah, can 't see how cars can be compared to properties???
    Do you have 99-years leasehold cars?
    Can you buy a car at $500,000 and sell at $1,000,000 10 years later?
    For both yes. You have FH cars in Malaysia.

    If you buy a car during 08 or 09 you will make a tidy profit if you sold 2 or 3 years later.

    In both cases the focus is on the use of the car to generate income or values.

    In 2017 or 2018 if you renew COE at 50k and in 2019 if COE goes to 100K, your car will be worth 80 to 90K.

    Utility and replacement value bro. House left 1 year lease also can live in for 1 year or rent out for 1 year.
    The three laws of Kelonguni:

    Where there is kelong, there is guni.
    No kelong no guni.
    More kelong = more guni.

  26. #56
    teddybear's Avatar
    teddybear is offline Global recession is coming....
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    10,800

    Default

    And it seems that you are ignorant that at the end of the 99-years lease, the owners have to forked out money to demolish the buildings before returning EMPTY land to the Government........

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelonguni View Post
    For both yes. You have FH cars in Malaysia.

    If you buy a car during 08 or 09 you will make a tidy profit if you sold 2 or 3 years later.

    In both cases the focus is on the use of the car to generate income or values.

    In 2017 or 2018 if you renew COE at 50k and in 2019 if COE goes to 100K, your car will be worth 80 to 90K.

    Utility and replacement value bro. House left 1 year lease also can live in for 1 year or rent out for 1 year.

  27. #57
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    4,035

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by teddybear View Post
    And it seems that you are ignorant that at the end of the 99-years lease, the owners have to forked out money to demolish the buildings before returning EMPTY land to the Government........
    OK then the last year of rent give to Govt.

    How about having 2 years of lease left?
    The three laws of Kelonguni:

    Where there is kelong, there is guni.
    No kelong no guni.
    More kelong = more guni.

  28. #58
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    286

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by teddybear View Post
    And it seems that you are ignorant that at the end of the 99-years lease, the owners have to forked out money to demolish the buildings before returning EMPTY land to the Government........
    This is a very interesting comment. Has been a real case of this happening in Singapore before? If the owners refuse to demolish the building, is there legal recourse from the Govt against them?

    While I dont disagree that this is the rule, I would really be very interested to see whether it has been enforced.
    树大必有枯枝,人多必有白痴。
    树无皮必死无疑,人不要脸天下无敌!

  29. #59
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    803

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by leftfield View Post
    This is a very interesting comment. Has been a real case of this happening in Singapore before? If the owners refuse to demolish the building, is there legal recourse from the Govt against them?

    While I dont disagree that this is the rule, I would really be very interested to see whether it has been enforced.
    There is no precedent case before. What the government is likely to do is to give eviction order to recover the land with the building intact. When it is time to redevelop the land, the government will call for tender to sell the land which the developers will have to cost into their bids the cost of demolishing it.

  30. #60
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    4,035

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Amber Woods View Post
    There is no precedent case before. What the government is likely to do is to give eviction order to recover the land with the building intact. When it is time to redevelop the land, the government will call for tender to sell the land which the developers will have to cost into their bids the cost of demolishing it.
    The fact that there is no precedent tells you how likely this is going to happen.

    Anyway, I doubt the costs will be high.

    http://www.cvconslt.com/list_of_demolition_project.htm

    If I were a developer, I will surely buy up any leasehold left with less than ten years if the price is reasonable. Very unlikely until last year still nobody wants to buy haha...
    The three laws of Kelonguni:

    Where there is kelong, there is guni.
    No kelong no guni.
    More kelong = more guni.

Similar Threads

  1. Freehold / Leasehold
    By Arcachon in forum Singapore Private Condominium Property Discussion and News
    Replies: 0
    -: 12-11-21, 07:14
  2. Leasehold Versus Freehold - The Comparison Continues (2016)
    By kurama in forum Singapore Private Condominium Property Discussion and News
    Replies: 21
    -: 27-08-18, 08:02
  3. FREEHOLD VS LEASEHOLD
    By chrischocolates in forum Singapore Private Condominium Property Discussion and News
    Replies: 55
    -: 16-10-13, 21:25
  4. Freehold Vs Leasehold under new CM
    By Dys in forum Singapore Private Condominium Property Discussion and News
    Replies: 4
    -: 14-01-13, 12:54
  5. 99leasehold versus freehold
    By deemarco69 in forum Singapore Private Condominium Property Discussion and News
    Replies: 17
    -: 12-05-10, 23:55

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •