In the Landed segment, the price differential between FH and LH is more pronounced than condo or HDB. Partly because a buyer is more aware that he has to price the land, and then the building that sits on the land. Separately. Valuer Aldo does the same way.
In condo or HDB, normally a buyer doesn't do that so consciously. And of course, the land on which the building sits, the title is with MCST and SLA respectively.
I suggest a reading of a report to gain an insight.
https://www.orangetee.com/Research/R...ldAnalysis.pdf
Condo, HUDC, Private apartment are strata title, HDB and DBSS are leasing of airspace.
They are different classes of property. To be confused about the classes of property can only lead one to buy DBSS thinking it is private.
There is no land title for HDB and DBSS only leasing document.
Also, MCST doesn't issue land title, they only manage the condo common property.
https://www.ifa.sg/hdb-title-deed/
So sorry you so SMART.
I was shown a "Land Title Deed" of a 5 room HDB flat. For those who does not know, it is not a title teed. Instead, many are shocked to see that the “owner” of the flat is merely taking out a lease. It clearly shows that the owner is not an “owner” of the flat. The so called 'Title Deed' is given to the owner when all mortgages are paid. However, what is written on it is a reminder that HDB owners do not really own their flat. The so-called "Title Deed" shows that it is a lease because the property is a 99 years leasehold or perhaps HDB flats are tightly regulated government properties. Likely it is due to these two reasons.
So should we rent instead of “buying” a HDB flat since the latter does not make us owners even if all mortgages are paid up? Well, for a 5 room flat it is not too difficult to rent the entire flat for $2000 per month. Assuming a time horizon of 30 years and that the discount rate is the same as inflation, the present value of this rental is the 2000 x 12 x 30 = $720,000! It is possible to buy a 5 room flat at a much cheaper price than this. Thus, “buying” a 5 room flat is still more worth it.
But most still cannot swallow the hard fact that “owners” of HDB flat do not own the flat!
https://www.99.co/blog/singapore/mcs...-strata-title/
PROPERTY NEWS & ANALYSIS
MCST – What is it?
AUGUST 17, 2015
In real estate, MCST stands for Management Corporation Strata Title
Quite a mouthful, but put in plain english, it simply refers to the managing body of a condominium or any compound which has multiple owners and shared public facilities (which are typically condominiums).
When a Management Corporation is contracted to manage an estate it is given a name that looks like this: Management Corporation Strata TItle Plan No. xxxx (where “xxxx” are running numbers).
Why are there MCSTs?
The need for a managing body arises from the nature of private housing in Singapore. Many a Singaporean have found their homes in compounds such as condominiums where numerous owners share common facilities.
These compounds usually come with a swimming pool, small park, gym, security and so on. Naturally, all such public facilities have to be managed, maintained and at times added on to.
This is where the MCST comes in. Seeing that property owners do not wish to constantly manage everything themselves, they delegate a lot of tasks to a separate body – and this body is the MCST.
So what does a MCST do exactly?
It’s difficult to generalise what the job scope of the MCST precisely is. The duties tend to range from managing the day to day cleaning and fixing of the public facilities, to upholding the general health of the compound (e.g. taking care of leakages, mold, pest) to managing its overall security. A good MCST could expand its duties to include community development or even property appreciation.
It is both in the quality of service and the breadth of its tasks that a MCST can differentiate itself from its competitors, and so they often do. While some MCSTs may set out to do the bare minimum, others take initiative and fix problems before you even realize they were there to begin with. Naturally then, most MCSTs fall somewhere between these two extremes.
A good MCST may mean better living at lower management fees.
Procedural details
Let’s take a step back – where does the MCST come from again?
In the early stages near a building’s completion, it is the property developer’s responsibility to arrange the formation of a MCST. It is legally obliged to do so within 2 months from the issuance of the Temporary Occupation Permits (TOP) to the new homeowners.
After the first Annual General Meeting (AGM), the responsibilities of and control over the management is given to the property owners. The shift is a little complex and involves some steps, for which the details are available here (see page 9 and 10).
If all goes well, the owners now have full authority to either keep the present management corporation or to appoint a different one to manage their affairs as the MCST.
It is common, especially amongst the bigger estates, that the owners collectively appoint a management council, which in turn hires a management agent. The management agent is the go-to person, who takes care of all the day to day business, and functions as the liaison between the MCST, the management council, and by extension the property owners.
A comprehensive list of all MCSTs
How to know which MCST does what, and where? You can find the comprehensive list of all MCSTs with all the currently active MCSTs here. The list includes relevant information such as the condominiums information and contact details. Additionally, if you already know either the MCSTs plan number or the name of the development, this website is very helpful in that it allows you to fill them in and it will then give you all the relevant information such as contact details of the manager agent, contact details of the MCST, address development name etc.
How to find your new MCST?
Are you looking for a great MCST and you do not know where and how to find one? Here are some pointers to nudge you in the right direction.
To start off, there are two non-profit organisation whose objective it is to enhance the standard of quality of management corporations: the Association of Management Corporations in Singapore (AMCIS) and the Association of Property & Facility Managers (APFM). One way to go about this would be to inquire with these associations and see if they can help you out, and recommend the better MCSTs.
Another way is to do some homework yourself (which could be a pain, yes, but bear with us, it will be worth it!). Go out there and see them for yourself. In all likelihood, all MCSTs will tell you beforehand that they will be doing a superb job in managing your estate. Yet, to be better informed we recommend you to use their past and current performance as an indicator for future performance. For you, this means that you should check out how management corporations are and have been performing in other estates they are currently managing for.
A Checklist
Make a shortlist of managing corporations that you deem good candidates. As noted earlier, a comprehensive list of all the MCSTs active in Singapore can be found here.
Look up which estates the managing firms are currently managing and add them to a separate list. Again, save time by using this website
Visit the estates and make a detailed observation of the facilities and public spaces.
Lastly—and this is key—go talk to the tenants. Yes the tenants! After all, it is the tenants who see and experience the MCSTs work first hand every day, and they are well-suited to sharing the pros and cons about whether their estate is properly managed or not.
Additionally, you could attend the annual general meetings. While not the most exciting exercise you can think of, you will probably get to hear a lot about the MCST and get a good vibe of how the owners judge the MCST.
http://www.sla.gov.sg/Services/Property-Ownership
The land register shows who owns the land and whether there are encumbrances, such as mortgages or charges affecting the land.
Two land registers co-exist, namely:
The Register of Deeds for Common Law land under the Registration of Deeds Act;
and
The Land Titles Register for titles land under the Land Titles Act.
http://singaporealternatives.blogspo...eally-own.html
Time to go reading room.
HDB’s “lease agreement” may be one of its kinds in this world because it is made to look so similar to “private ownership” but in legal terms; you do no have any “private ownership” of the land nor property.
1) You are allowed to “trade” on the lease (of rent) for profits and it makes it looks as if you “own” the land and property.
2) Although you can trade your lease but this is subjected to HDB’s approval as it is the rightful owner. HDB, as the owner, dictates on who you can sell the lease to, which race, which nationality… etc. If you really own that HDB flat and land, they have no right to dictate that!
3) But you have absolutely no right whatsoever over that land where your HDB flat sits on. Eg. You cannot fence up the place just like what private condominiums do to keep out “trespassers” because you don’t own it in the first place. i.e. it is NOT considered as “private property”.
4) You can’t have strata titles over the land and property nor decide on whether to Enblock the whole block of flats to sell it to private developers. You can’t initiate that Enblocking but ONLY HDB, the real rightful OWNER of the land could initiate such process to capitalize on the value of the land.
5) You might have paid for the construction of the carparks for your estate via the pricing mechanism dictates by HDB but you do not own these carparks. i.e. you will have to pay rent for using these carparks.
6) You cannot form your own management board to decide on maintenance issues or even for simple landscaping decision. i.e. you can’t even decide what trees to plant in your estate!
7) Anytime the government or HDB want to do anything to your estate, they can just do it without compensation or consent from HDB tenants. For example, HDB can just decide to “monetize” the carpark at the back of your block to build DBSS flats and you have no say nor compensation because you don’t own anything there, though you might have supposedly paid for the building of that carpark.
8) The reason why you have to apply for HDB approval to “sublet” your flat out is basically because HDB is the landlord. This is unlike private property owners where the government or URA has no say over who you can or cannot sublet to.
I must have misunderstooded your statement.
In the Landed segment, the price differential between FH and LH is more pronounced than condo or HDB. Partly because a buyer is more aware that he has to price the land, and then the building that sits on the land. Separately. Valuer Aldo does the same way.
In condo or HDB, normally a buyer doesn't do that so consciously. And of course, the land on which the building sits, the title is with MCST and SLA respectively.
I suggest a reading of a report to gain an insight.
http://www.lawgazette.com.sg/2000-9/Sep00-focus3.htm
The conditions governing the leasehold interest in HDB flats may be found in the Housing and Development Act (Cap 129) (the ‘H & D Act’), and in the title and related documents to each flat such as the Agreement for Lease, Supplemental Agreement, Lease, Variation of Lease and the relevant Memorandum of Lease and Variation of Memorandum of Lease.
http://statutes.agc.gov.sg/aol/searc...epth%3A0;rec=0
also, Btw, Goh&Goh building also enbloc (back of envelope calculation puts it at >1000psf ppr). Developers are rushing to do landbanking.
http://www.propertyguru.com.sg/prope...or-s101-5mil-2
You are right about the lease arrangement.
But why is it that, when we are now at the 50th year of the appearance first HDB flats, people are still confused of this arrangement. Why is it that Lawrence Wong found it necessary to remind HDB buyers not to pay big buck for flats with limited remaining lease-years.
For any HDB, there is no land holding involved; the land belongs to the government. There is no building asset involved; the building belongs to HDB. Legally, a 'purchase' should be termed a lease agreement, without the right to a carpark space as well.
In other country, Japan for example, for this kind of arrangement whether or not the land owner is a private entity or the government, the legal term used is "Right-to-Lease". Why is it called Leasehold in Singapore?
You call a HDB flat 99 LH, a condo 99 LH, then mis-pricing will surely follow.
In other forum, someone questioned why lately HDB has started using the legal term "Title" in its communique. What "Title"? Why AGC can allow the usage of "Title" for HDB?
You need to read LKY speeches to fully understand, why, why, why.
HDB is a way of LKY thinking to give back to the people.
But over the years the thinking change.
Everything is in Black and White, no misleading some people Know, some Don't Know and others refuse to Know.
One should read more, ask more and complain less to gain more.
Somebody in this forum has already stated it very clearly the definition of legal status of "HDB flats" for layman, which makes sense to me:
- HDB flat owner owns a 99-years lease of the HDB flat from the government!
Plan simple!
It means, HDB flat owner doesn't really own the HDB flat physically, what they get is just a "lease" title to use the HDB flat unless its 99-years lease expire!
That is why HDB flat should be and ought to be much cheaper than 99-years leasehold private condos and apartments! (because private condos and apartment owners own their private properties but not their LAND which is leased from the Government for 99-years)!
The difference between RL (Right to Lease) and LH, for LH there is the legal right to for example enbloc, or even to redevelop the building into a hotel if zoning is revised. That is provided all SPs consent is obtained.
LH has all the rights of a FH, except that the rights are limited to 99 years.
RL, the true legal nature of HDB, has no such rights. Units in RL are not even strata.
Please do not mislead people! LH has NO right of a FH
Leasehold - means you lease for that period, that is all!
For owners of 99-years leasehold properties, you lease the land for a period of 99-years from the Government! So you DO NOT OWN the LAND!
That is precisely why at the end of 99-years lease, you MUST return the land to the Government!
I think he captured it very accurately.
Within 99 years, you have the same full rights as FH to negotiate enbloc at a fraction of enbloc price.
Any changes in potential of the land within 99 years such as removal of height restrictions, surrounding plot ratios, levels allowed, GFA bonus etc, you are entitled to include in your negotiation.
But try to make sure it's concluded before the lease starts to run below 50 years. There will be less negotiation power thereafter although the cheap price makes it more likely for developers to bite.
The three laws of Kelonguni:
Where there is kelong, there is guni.
No kelong no guni.
More kelong = more guni.
HDB is THE most innovative public housing solution of all governments in history. Kudos to this government.
It wins this accolade hands down; the next most innovative solutions are miles away, pretty much unsighted.
Consider the facts, where else can you find a landlord able to get the following done:
The construction cost of the unit to be leased is completely funded by the tenant
The landlord collects all the rental payments upfront, in one lump sum tax free
The tenant pays for the car parking
The tenant pay the property tax
The tenants pay to upkeep the building estate and other miscellaneous fees
The tenants pay for all the repairs in the rental, including periodic refurbishment due to wear and tear
The landlord retains the right and flexibility to impose condition for subletting
The landlord retains the right to terminate the lease, aka confiscating the flat etc
These can only be achieved by giving a tenant the right of transferability, that is by allowing the lease agreement to be transferred. This is unique for lease agreement, the transferability converted the lease agreement to a marketable instrument. This is actually a beautiful, innovative solution.
The true beneficiary of this arrangement, other than the landlord it is the first generation owners of this kind of lease agreement. A subsequent owner must know how to price the lease agreement properly before buying.
not maybe, definitely not clear. how did the top statement lead to the bottom statement?
and how did you get the figure of 66%?
and regarding my question:
"is there a difference to the developer paying $600mio (example) to the owners and paying $575mio to owner +25mio (example) to govt to top up lease. both come up to $600 mio. "
and if you think there is a difference, why do you think there is a difference?
Not the most comparable example but usually FH owners will demand much more before they give up their FH ownership.
If the committee aims to sell at FH99 price the number of signatures to be obtained will fail.
The actual premium varies but generally they would want something from 20 to 30% higher, representative of the amount of premium they paid eons ago.
Most FH enbloc that succeed nowadays do so only if they have very few owners.
https://www.google.com.sg/amp/www.as...pt-fails%3Famp
The three laws of Kelonguni:
Where there is kelong, there is guni.
No kelong no guni.
More kelong = more guni.
No more, now they print money call Bond.
THE Housing & Development Board (HDB) on Friday sold S$1 billion seven-year bonds at 2.50 per cent, amid volatile markets.
Demand for the bonds was lower than expected as HDB has an option to upsize by S$600 million.
"Market was very choppy in the past few days, swinging all over the place," said Clifford Lee, DBS Bank head of fixed income.
The sale was done within two hours in the afternoon, he noted. HDB still has the option to sell the remaining S$600 million later, he said.
http://www.businesstimes.com.sg/gove...r-bonds-at-250
1 The Housing & Development Board ("HDB") has issued S$1 billion, 7-year Fixed Rate Notes (the “Notes”) under its S$32 billion Multicurrency Medium Term Note ("MTN") Programme.
http://www.hdb.gov.sg/cs/infoweb/pre...xed-rate-notes
No lah, they did not print money, they print paper(electronic) call Bond value at only 32,000,000,000,000. lost count don't know the number of zero correct or not.
what happens to this statement
so will developers buy at 36% higher price tag (if Rio Casa were FH) or not?
the 3rd attempt at asking you this question:
"is there a difference to the developer paying $600mio (example) to the owners and paying $575mio to owner +25mio (example) to govt to top up lease. both come up to $600 mio. "
and if you think there is a difference, why do you think there is a difference?
the article linked didnt say anything about new LH99 land price or 20% premium. It is really hard (for me at least) to make any judgement from the article alone.
do you personally think that there is a 20% premium or only about 4% above new LH99 land price? and which new LH99 land price are you referring to?
i did respond http://forums.condosingapore.com/sho...962#post525962
to elaborate more on the volume part,
if margin psf ppr is $100psf@plot ratio 2.1 & $85psf@plot ratio 2.8 ($15psf ppr difference)
for plot ratio 2.1, profit is 100 x 36811.1 x 10.764 x 2.1 = 83.2mio
for plot ratio 2.8, profit is 85 x 36811.1 x 10.764 x 2.8 = 94.3mio (higher profit for plot ratio 2.8)
if margin psf ppr is $60psf@plot ratio 2.1 & $45psf@plot ratio 2.8 ($15psf ppr difference)
for plot ratio 2.1, profit is 60 x 36811.1 x 10.764 x 2.1 = 49.9mio
for plot ratio 2.8, profit is 45 x 36811.1 x 10.764 x 2.8 = 49.9mio (same profit)
if margin psf ppr is $35psf@plot ratio 2.1 & $20psf@plot ratio 2.8 ($15psf ppr difference)
for plot ratio 2.1, profit is 35 x 36811.1 x 10.764 x 2.1 = 29.1mio
for plot ratio 2.8, profit is 20 x 36811.1 x 10.764 x 2.8 = 22.1mio (lower profit for plot ratio 2.8)
can somebody crosscheck, fact check ?
I was merely smoked by Teddy's figure of 36%.
In actuality, FH site owners tend to ask above the 99LH price level substantially, that is why such transactions are generally absent.
When and if FH owners do accept that price level, there is no reason for developers not to jump at the opportunity.
The problem is there is usually a price premium they ask for above that level, which causes enbloc attempts to fail (because owners are unsatisfied) or because the aim was too high (Developers won't buy at those price level).
The three laws of Kelonguni:
Where there is kelong, there is guni.
No kelong no guni.
More kelong = more guni.
No matter how much they print, it is fine as long as they can take back those 99-years leasehold properties and land (at $0 cost) and recycle back into market.
On one hand they print, on the other hand they take back land assets free of charge........ They can cancel each other..................................
Without doing so, S$ will have fallen to hell! May be we will see S$3 : RM1 (and not S$1 : RM3)!
I don't understand why a bond issuance is considered money-printing?
In this case HDB issued a bond, subscribers of the bond paid real money to HDB. Please illustrate which part of it created new money; real or un-real?
You think HDB does not use real money for the coupon payments?