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Thread: Leasehold versus Freehold - the Comparison Continues (2016)

  1. #91
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    Waiting for MND to announce 60 years leasehold HDB and GLS soon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcachon View Post
    Waiting for MND to announce 60 years leasehold HDB and GLS soon.
    Waited 2-3 years already. I doubt it will happen until after next election at least.
    The three laws of Kelonguni:

    Where there is kelong, there is guni.
    No kelong no guni.
    More kelong = more guni.

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    think they will have shorter lease period for HDB flats in prime areas in future like Tanjong pagar (once the port moves) and kampong bugis

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    They were caught off guard when they launch the 60 years lease at The Hillford.

    https://www.iproperty.com.sg/news/81...ancing-hurdle-

    Now they made sure they know what they doing with 60 years HDB.

    I am sure, anyone who buys will give a damn about the lease.

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    When Ah Gong says, I want your land, it does not matter what kind of hold you have...

    http://www.straitstimes.com/singapor...after-deadline
    The three laws of Kelonguni:

    Where there is kelong, there is guni.
    No kelong no guni.
    More kelong = more guni.

  8. #98
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    Ai yoh, you telling half-truths lah!
    The way you phrase what you say is like you are saying Ah Gong can act like robber and he can take whoever's land he want without any justification????????

    You better cut and paste the full details instead of propagating such "half-truth" as though Ah Gong "act like robber" for no good reason.............

    And guess what?
    Moral of the story is that you better don't buy landed properties!

    When Ah Gong needs land for "National Development", they will always go around high-rise non-landed strata properties (because too many people to compensate and takes too long to resolve and have to compensate too much since under the amended law they MUST now compensate MARKET PRICE) and cut into landed-properties easier (because easier to acquire as fewer units to compensate, and less people to compensate and less properties and shorter time needed to take over)........

    Just don't understand why people will resort to "half-truth" to continue their propaganda that "free hold" is no difference from "99-years leasehold"?!


    Quote Originally Posted by Kelonguni View Post
    When Ah Gong says, I want your land, it does not matter what kind of hold you have...

    http://www.straitstimes.com/singapor...after-deadline

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    SINGAPORE: Three freehold landed properties at Merpati Road were legally possessed by the Singapore Land Authority (SLA) on Tuesday (Apr 25), as part of the land acquisition process for the future Mattar MRT station on Downtown Line 3 (DTL3) and surrounding developments.
    The owners of 27, 29 and 33 Merpati Road were served notice this morning by a team of SLA officers led by deputy chief executive Simon Ong, but none of them surrendered their keys to the authorities.
    Their neighbours in 12 other landed houses along Merpati Road and Jalan Anggerak have already moved out by the Tuesday deadline.
    Homeowners had been given close to seven years to move after the 15 properties were acquired by authorities in 2010 as part of redevelopment efforts around the Mattar MRT station.
    The original deadline to hand over the acquired properties was the end of August 2015 but that was extended four times to Apr 25, 2017.

    Channel NewsAsia understands that the three remaining homeowners were offered market compensation amounts ranging between S$1.7 and S$3 million, and that none of them contested the compensation offered. Compensation letters were given to the homeowners in July 2011.
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    SLA said it also offered various assistance measures, including advance payment of 40 per cent of their compensation, priority balloting for HDB flats if eligible and a waiver of housing loan restrictions.
    A resident of 29 Merpati Road, 60-year-old George Oh, declined to comment on the amount of compensation offered for the acquisition but said it was not enough. Mr Oh, who lives in the house with his two brothers, said his younger sibling works in the area as a mechanic and wanted a deadline extension due to the proximity to his workplace.
    However, he said the family will move out once their new home is ready. "We already got our HDB flat through SLA help so we are still renovating and once it's done, we’ll move out gradually," said Mr Oh, adding that the house at Merpati Road was bought by his father in 1974.
    Occupants of units 27 and 33 did not respond to SLA officers and the possession notices were placed in their mailbox.
    An elderly resident of unit 27, who wanted to be known only as Mr Loh, later said he did not know that officers had come by. Speaking in Mandarin, he said his family - his son, daughter-in-law and daughter - would have no choice but to move as all his neighbours have done so.
    An enforcement notice for the possession will be served on Wednesday and owners will have another 28 days to vacate. If they do not move out, authorities will apply for a court order to take over the properties, which could take three to six months.

    Once all the properties have been handed over, road alignment and infrastructure works will start. These include the building of high-density residential developments which SLA said will allow more people to benefit from future rail infrastructure in the area.

    Read more at http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/...i-road-8791026
    Last edited by Arcachon; 25-04-17 at 22:08.

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    Ah gong took my ancestors land what... 100K compensation now can easily sell for hundreds of million.

    And now force the landed index to skydive then acquire so many pieces of land all around, FH or otherwise.

    I'm not complaining actually - it's for a better Singapore eventually.

    Quote Originally Posted by teddybear View Post
    Ai yoh, you telling half-truths lah!
    The way you phrase what you say is like you are saying Ah Gong can act like robber and he can take whoever's land he want without any justification????????

    You better cut and paste the full details instead of propagating such "half-truth" as though Ah Gong "act like robber" for no good reason.............

    And guess what?
    Moral of the story is that you better don't buy landed properties!

    When Ah Gong needs land for "National Development", they will always go around high-rise non-landed strata properties (because too many people to compensate and takes too long to resolve and have to compensate too much since under the amended law they MUST now compensate MARKET PRICE) and cut into landed-properties easier (because easier to acquire as fewer units to compensate, and less people to compensate and less properties and shorter time needed to take over)........

    Just don't understand why people will resort to "half-truth" to continue their propaganda that "free hold" is no difference from "99-years leasehold"?!
    The three laws of Kelonguni:

    Where there is kelong, there is guni.
    No kelong no guni.
    More kelong = more guni.

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by teddybear View Post

    When Ah Gong needs land for "National Development", they will always go around high-rise non-landed strata properties (because too many people to compensate and takes too long to resolve and have to compensate too much since under the amended law they MUST now compensate MARKET PRICE) and cut into landed-properties easier (because easier to acquire as fewer units to compensate, and less people to compensate and less properties and shorter time needed to take over)........

    Just don't understand why people will resort to "half-truth" to continue their propaganda that "free hold" is no difference from "99-years leasehold"?!
    Not true. If the land is needed for an essential public infrastructure project they will acquire it regardless of the title or type of housing. Rochor Centre is a good example.

  12. #102
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    Rochor road HDB flats and HDB shophouses?
    Rochor road HDB flats they have no cheaper alternative, because if they re-route, it will hit Sim Lim Square or Sim Lim Tower and other commercial buildings around those stretch...... So acquiring those already very old Rochor HDB flats is CHEAPER.....

    It is all about whether there is CHEAPER option.............
    So HDB flats are CHEAPEST acquisition option, followed by landed properties being the NEXT CHEAPEST option available where each piece of land owned by 1 owner, compensation definitely cheaper than a piece of land vertically up 30 storeys have to compensate 30 owners.........

    Also, they are now paying market rate isn't it?
    Unless you are like Kelonguni trying to imply that they are like robber now robbing people of their land and paying significantly below market price?

    Quote Originally Posted by peppertail View Post
    Not true. If the land is needed for an essential public infrastructure project they will acquire it regardless of the title or type of housing. Rochor Centre is a good example.

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    I actually did not say they did not pay market rate.

    But that Freehold does not always mean one can gain from the indefinite lease. If the Govt chooses to take over your place at a time when prices are depressed, your gains will still be capped and not far off from another Leasehold development, even if they paid the prevailing market rate.

    The demand will be stronger if it was cheaper, just as you have said, and therefore LH in general will be cheaper than FH...

    Quote Originally Posted by teddybear View Post
    Rochor road HDB flats and HDB shophouses?
    Rochor road HDB flats they have no cheaper alternative, because if they re-route, it will hit Sim Lim Square or Sim Lim Tower and other commercial buildings around those stretch...... So acquiring those already very old Rochor HDB flats is CHEAPER.....

    It is all about whether there is CHEAPER option.............
    So HDB flats are CHEAPEST acquisition option, followed by landed properties being the NEXT CHEAPEST option available where each piece of land owned by 1 owner, compensation definitely cheaper than a piece of land vertically up 30 storeys have to compensate 30 owners.........

    Also, they are now paying market rate isn't it?
    Unless you are like Kelonguni trying to imply that they are like robber now robbing people of their land and paying significantly below market price?
    The three laws of Kelonguni:

    Where there is kelong, there is guni.
    No kelong no guni.
    More kelong = more guni.

  14. #104
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    Now, since you agreed that Ah Gong are indeed paying market rate NOW, then they are NOT acting like robber right? If so, your statement that "Freehold does not always mean one can gain from the indefinite lease" will obviously be FALSE!

    Why?
    Very simple:
    If NOW they are paying market rate, then it is clear that your freehold property will hold their value because the longer you hold, the more valuable it is (as it won't depreciate like 99-years leasehold properties), and FH owners will not be afraid that their properties and land will be robbed, because in the case their FH properties has been acquired by Ah Gong, they will pay you = $(FH market value) at that moment in time.

    In comparison, if you own 99-years leasehold properties, and say Ah Gong now want to acquire your 99-years leasehold properties when your property is 60 years old, so, they will only pay you like (39/99)x$(FH market value) = (0.39)x$(FH market value)!
    So, it is clear the longer the government waits to acquire your 99-years leasehold properties, the less you will be compensated even if at market rate!

    If you go to the extreme, say Ah Gong acquire your 99-years leasehold property when your property is 98 years old, then Ah Gong only need to pay you (1/99)x$(FH market value) = (0.01)x$(FH market value)!
    That is to say, if FH property beside your 98-years old LH property is valued at market price of $1M, then Ah Gong will only compensate $10k ! That is indeed hilarious indeed!

    As to your statement: "LH in general will be cheaper than FH.."
    well, we all know that new 99-years LH is only like 10-20% cheaper than FH only currently, and many people are either IGNORANT or they are just wanting to FLIP their property quickly because once the 99-years LH property is like 50 years old, it is only worth 49% of the FH property, and when your LH property is 80 years old, it is only worth 19% of the FH property! . It is clear that the longer you hold your LH property, the poorer you will become!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelonguni View Post
    I actually did not say they did not pay market rate.

    But that Freehold does not always mean one can gain from the indefinite lease. If the Govt chooses to take over your place at a time when prices are depressed, your gains will still be capped and not far off from another Leasehold development, even if they paid the prevailing market rate.

    The demand will be stronger if it was cheaper, just as you have said, and therefore LH in general will be cheaper than FH...
    Last edited by teddybear; 26-04-17 at 22:18.

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    Supposing it's 1 million (LH) versus 1.2 million (FH).

    The 200,000 difference if compounded at 2.5% over 98 years becomes 2.3 million. Even 70 years (after loan repaid) also 1.15 million difference leh. What does it mean har?

    Quote Originally Posted by teddybear View Post
    Now, since you agreed that Ah Gong are indeed paying market rate NOW, then they are NOT acting like robber right? If so, your statement that "Freehold does not always mean one can gain from the indefinite lease" will obviously be FALSE!

    Why?
    Very simple:
    If NOW they are paying market rate, then it is clear that your freehold property will hold their value because the longer you hold, the more valuable it is (as it won't depreciate like 99-years leasehold properties), and FH owners will not be afraid that their properties and land will be robbed, because in the case their FH properties has been acquired by Ah Gong, they will pay you = $(FH market value) at that moment in time.

    In comparison, if you own 99-years leasehold properties, and say Ah Gong now want to acquire your 99-years leasehold properties when your property is 60 years old, so, they will only pay you like (39/99)x$(FH market value) = (0.39)x$(FH market value)!
    So, it is clear the longer the government waits to acquire your 99-years leasehold properties, the less you will be compensated even if at market rate!

    If you go to the extreme, say Ah Gong acquire your 99-years leasehold property when your property is 98 years old, then Ah Gong only need to pay you (1/99)x$(FH market value) = (0.01)x$(FH market value)!
    That is to say, if FH property beside your 98-years old LH property is valued at market price of $1M, then Ah Gong will only compensate $10k ! That is indeed hilarious indeed!

    As to your statement: "LH in general will be cheaper than FH.."
    well, we all know that new 99-years LH is only like 10-20% cheaper than FH only currently, and many people are either IGNORANT or they are just wanting to FLIP their property quickly because once the 99-years LH property is like 50 years old, it is only worth 49% of the FH property, and when your LH property is 80 years old, it is only worth 19% of the FH property! . It is clear that the longer you hold your LH property, the poorer you will become!
    The three laws of Kelonguni:

    Where there is kelong, there is guni.
    No kelong no guni.
    More kelong = more guni.

  16. #106
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    Don't understand how you get $1.15M difference.

    If indeed $200k compounded at 2.5% p.a. over 98 years is $2.3M,
    then a freehold property worth $1.2M now compounded at say 5% p.a. over 98 years will become = S$143.1M !
    You will definitely argue, why 5% p.a. for property price increase?
    Obviously property, being an illiquid asset, it has to have higher return over the long-term to attract investors (vs your $200k money invested in liquid asset - If you like, you can use 5% compounded return for your $200k money saved!).

    Meanwhile, your 99-years leasehold property at 98 years old is worth = S$0.01M !
    Ok, you can say you saved $2.3M.

    Even then, after 98 years, a FH owner excess earnings over a 99-year LH owner = S$143.1M - S$0.01M - S$2.3M = S$140.79M ! !!!!!!!!!!!! (WOW!)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



    Quote Originally Posted by Kelonguni View Post
    Supposing it's 1 million (LH) versus 1.2 million (FH).

    The 200,000 difference if compounded at 2.5% over 98 years becomes 2.3 million. Even 70 years (after loan repaid) also 1.15 million difference leh. What does it mean har?

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    Better still, my last few years investment record gains are over 10%.

    Let's discount to 8%.

    200k compounded 8% only for 98 years gives me... 377.2 million leh.

    How much is your 100 year old flat worth again 98 years later?

    Quote Originally Posted by teddybear View Post
    Don't understand how you get $1.15M difference.

    If indeed $200k compounded at 2.5% p.a. over 98 years is $2.3M,
    then a freehold property worth $1.2M now compounded at say 5% p.a. over 98 years will become = S$143.1M !
    You will definitely argue, why 5% p.a. for property price increase?
    Obviously property, being an illiquid asset, it has to have higher return over the long-term to attract investors (vs your $200k money invested in liquid asset - If you like, you can use 5% compounded return for your $200k money saved!).

    Meanwhile, your 99-years leasehold property at 98 years old is worth = S$0.01M !
    Ok, you can say you saved $2.3M.

    Even then, after 98 years, a FH owner excess earnings over a 99-year LH owner = S$143.1M - S$0.01M - S$2.3M = S$140.79M ! !!!!!!!!!!!! (WOW!)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    The three laws of Kelonguni:

    Where there is kelong, there is guni.
    No kelong no guni.
    More kelong = more guni.

  18. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelonguni View Post
    Better still, my last few years investment record gains are over 10%.

    Let's discount to 8%.

    200k compounded 8% only for 98 years gives me... 377.2 million leh.

    How much is your 100 year old flat worth again 98 years later?
    i only login just to say you are amazing.
    please le, work in temasek or gic i want my cpf if you do, i thank you. i am sure other singaporeans will also thank you
    no need minimum sum to be raise every year, and also can withdraw at 55.

    btw, %-wise, approximately how much asset in real estate, and in the other "investment"?

  19. #109
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    I failed to see your logic!
    You keep telling us 99-years leasehold properties are good investment, and keep wanting to buy more!
    Yet property prices, even if freehold, will probably earn you 5% p.a. compounded over the long term!
    On the other hand, your 99-years leasehold properties will become $ZERO at the end of 99-years old!

    Since your investment returns are so good, why not just put all your $1M into investment and over 98 years compounded at 8% pa will become = $1,885.9M i.e. $1.88 BILLIONS !!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Why so stupid use that $1M to buy 99-years LH propertiesand see it
    earn 5% pa in short term and then become $ZERO at the end of 99-years?

    Your claims just doesn't tally and something must be amiss here?
    Like may be you have say $10M net worth but you put $500k into investment and by luck earns 10% p.a. over a short term but the rest of your money like $9.5M put in savings account earning almost 0% interest and claiming "my last few years investment record gains are over 10%."????????

    If your overall investment record gains (inclusive of all your net worth and capital) is so impressive as you claimed, like over 10% p.a. over the long term (which few people do), you are saying that you are even better than Temasek and GIC!

    If with your that kind of calculation, I can also tell you that "my last few years investment record gains are over >30%!!!!!!!!".

    Not bluffing! I ever had a stock that I sold at a profit of >500% over 3 years or >140% p.a. compounded!


    Quote Originally Posted by Kelonguni View Post
    Better still, my last few years investment record gains are over 10%.

    Let's discount to 8%.

    200k compounded 8% only for 98 years gives me... 377.2 million leh.

    How much is your 100 year old flat worth again 98 years later?

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    Haha, I am only kidding with Teddybear since he also based on property ridiculous 5% compounded growth over 98 years.

    Even SG from third world till today, the average compounded gain is only 3.6%.

    Don't take it so seriously yah?

    Quote Originally Posted by hopeful View Post
    i only login just to say you are amazing.
    please le, work in temasek or gic i want my cpf if you do, i thank you. i am sure other singaporeans will also thank you
    no need minimum sum to be raise every year, and also can withdraw at 55.

    btw, %-wise, approximately how much asset in real estate, and in the other "investment"?
    The three laws of Kelonguni:

    Where there is kelong, there is guni.
    No kelong no guni.
    More kelong = more guni.

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    LH balance 95 years
    Price: $1m
    Rental: $36,000 per year for 95 years with zero value at end of 99 years (assuming net rental)

    FH
    Price: $1.2m (say $0.2m higher than LH)
    Rental: same at $36,000 per year forever (assuming net rental)

    Is above a good comparison? Is TB the guru in this forum who has the answer which is a better investment? I see he posts everything.

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    Post everything yes he does.

    But he admits to being a faulty clock right only twice a day, although I have shown that he is actually a clock with no hands.

    His agenda is OCR crash, but can't differentiate for sure where is actually OCR.

    Quote Originally Posted by laohero View Post
    LH balance 95 years
    Price: $1m
    Rental: $36,000 per year for 95 years with zero value at end of 99 years (assuming net rental)

    FH
    Price: $1.2m (say $0.2m higher than LH)
    Rental: same at $36,000 per year forever (assuming net rental)

    Is above a good comparison? Is TB the guru in this forum who has the answer which is a better investment? I see he posts everything.
    The three laws of Kelonguni:

    Where there is kelong, there is guni.
    No kelong no guni.
    More kelong = more guni.

  23. #113
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    OCR private property prices sure crash in near future!
    Don't understand why people want to keep denying that it will not crash? (as though like forever it won't?)

    Property prices always go in cycles (always peak and crash), and the last crash was in late 2008/early 2009, so it is likely to crash by or before 2022, but even more likely to be earlier than that....

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelonguni View Post
    Post everything yes he does.

    But he admits to being a faulty clock right only twice a day, although I have shown that he is actually a clock with no hands.

    His agenda is OCR crash, but can't differentiate for sure where is actually OCR.

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    That's what you said about 2017 or 2018. Now is 2022.

    By the time the crash comes, my second property would have been fully paid up! Shiok!

    Quote Originally Posted by teddybear View Post
    OCR private property prices sure crash in near future!
    Don't understand why people want to keep denying that it will not crash? (as though like forever it won't?)

    Property prices always go in cycles (always peak and crash), and the last crash was in late 2008/early 2009, so it is likely to crash by or before 2022, but even more likely to be earlier than that....

  25. #115
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    Fully paid?

    More like already FLIPPED out for a profit?
    Cannot hold too long because will become $ZERO ultimately.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelonguni View Post
    That's what you said about 2017 or 2018. Now is 2022.

    By the time the crash comes, my second property would have been fully paid up! Shiok!

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    My second is a freehold unit.

    Quote Originally Posted by teddybear View Post
    Fully paid?

    More like already FLIPPED out for a profit?
    Cannot hold too long because will become $ZERO ultimately.....
    The three laws of Kelonguni:

    Where there is kelong, there is guni.
    No kelong no guni.
    More kelong = more guni.

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    Quote Originally Posted by laohero View Post
    LH balance 95 years
    Price: $1m
    Rental: $36,000 per year for 95 years with zero value at end of 99 years (assuming net rental)

    FH
    Price: $1.2m (say $0.2m higher than LH)
    Rental: same at $36,000 per year forever (assuming net rental)

    Is above a good comparison? Is TB the guru in this forum who has the answer which is a better investment? I see he posts everything.
    This seems to be the logic... and so if you can choose between a freehold shack in Pulau Ubin and a leasehold apt in marina one for the same price, choose the freehold in Ubin, because even if you can only rent it out for $1, over the next 3 billion years until the sun burn out, you would have made back $3billion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by smellyfish View Post
    This seems to be the logic... and so if you can choose between a freehold shack in Pulau Ubin and a leasehold apt in marina one for the same price, choose the freehold in Ubin, because even if you can only rent it out for $1, over the next 3 billion years until the sun burn out, you would have made back $3billion.
    So does this forum guru teddybear shares the above view?
    I like to hear his expert opinion and which investment would he choose?

    Case 1: LH balance 95 years
    Price: $1m
    Rental: $36,000 per year for 95 years with zero value at end of 99 years (assuming net rental)

    Case 2: FH
    Price: $1.2m (say $0.2m higher than LH)
    Rental: same at $36,000 per year forever (assuming net rental)

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    So sorry, only know Southbank.

  30. #120
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    Default WAKE UP CALL...: Perils of owning ageing leasehold properties

    Now that Minister Lawrence Wong, a credible person in the Government has shot the WAKE UP CALL on Perils of owning ageing leasehold properties, it is more difficult for those telling LIES about how many good 99-years Leasehold properties are in the HOPE OF FLIPPING AT OBSCENE PRICE of their AGING properties to OTHERS to hold their "BABIES"..........

    You can read more here....
    https://www.theedgeproperty.com.sg/c...old-properties


    Perils of owning ageing leasehold properties
    By Cecilia Chow / The Edge Property | April 21, 2017 12:00 PM MYT

    .............

    The two HDB owners are representative of many others staying in ageing leasehold properties who became worried, following National Development Minister Lawrence Wong’s blog post on March 24. It was intended to caution buyers against paying high prices for older HDB flats on the assumption that their flats would automatically be eligible for the Selective En-bloc Redevelopment Scheme (SERS).

    Wong wrote, “In fact, for the vast majority of HDB flats, the leases will eventually run out, and the flats will be returned to HDB, which will in turn have to surrender the land to the State.” He added, “As the leases run down, especially towards the tail-end, the flat prices will come down correspondingly.

    .......................

    JLL’s Tan advises owners of private residential projects on leasehold sites to be aware that, as the lease gets shorter, the differential premium that developers have to pay gets higher. “This will eat into their sale price,” he says.

    For Rio Casa, if the differential premiums were included, the total land cost would amount to $649.8 million, according to SLP Research (see chart). SLP’s Mak points out that the differential premiums account for about 30% of the total land cost for some of these HUDC estates.

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