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Thread: Primo Residences (D19, Jln Pelikat, Novelty Group, Freehold)

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    Quote Originally Posted by xtink, 24 March 2010 4.13 pm
    not necessary, some projects still not completely sold are still offering IAS
    ... but those are "old" projects, this is not ... There is no other payment scheme for Primo Residences.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ocoloco79, 24 March 2010 6.00 pm
    May I know if margin calls is calculated this way? For instance in my case, my property cost $953K, later economic down turn, my pty value dropped by 20% to $762400. Bank will ask for margin call to top up the difference of $190600 in my case? Normally how much do we need to spare aside as cash to prepare for margin calls?? On the other hand, suspension of loan means bank will not lend me money and I need to pay one shot $700 over thousands to developer??? Thanks!!

    Thanks
    I am no expert on this subject.

    Based on my understanding, margin calls happened in the past, e.g. Asian crisis, etc.. Did it happen during SAR period? I am not sure.

    I believe there is no margin call during US-subprime crisis for those who promptly make their monthly repayment even if their valuation dropped significantly. Why? The banks want your recurring business - not your properties or your bankruptcy.

    Nevertheless, you need to prepare for margin call.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ocoloco79
    A lesson learnt.. never succumbed to hardselling or pressures.. If I had more time to do homework or to ask for everyone opinions here, I will hold back and wait. At most live in hdb forever and be worry free....Haiz...
    Its not the end of the road... really work your sums right.. any insurance policies to fall back on (draw out cash?).. any reserve money from relatives available should there be a need... anything... really have to have a really clear picture of the risk and the solutions..

    A quick and good buyer is someone who

    1. Study the area that he/she is interested in... maybe years of study.
    2. Watch the land being released for sale and the successful bidder or the enblock pricing.
    3. Monitor the news of the tentative selling price... not accurate but serves as a guide. Developer will revise their pricing in line with the market demand... they are profit maximisers which means that even if they got the land dirt cheap, they will try their luck to sell it at a high price as long as there are buyers willing to buy
    4. Work out the sums right, get an in principal approval from banks on max loan quantum before walking into show rooms, you have a maximum budget that you can commit comfortably.
    5. Lastly, register for preview with a blank cheque, wait for developer to reveal the pricing... buy only when it is within your max range for that project and all the pros and cons carefully evaulated.

    That's a cool and wise buyer... agents will love you for saving their time. You will not worry as much as the homework is all done.

    The reason for the 3 weeks exercise period is for buyers to think through their purchase, some may abort their purchase and lose the option fee. Agents will be hurt and terribly upset but it is your RIGHT. If you want to know... go find out about concourse skyline.... more than 10 buyers had let their option lapse after the lehman saga.... google for it and see if you can find it. They could buy back the units which were released again at a lower price, 10-20% less? you must do your own research on that. Its not that lehman saga will happen again so easily but the point I want to make is that it is alright to let the option lapse... $12k is really nothing.

    Lastly, I am not asking the both of you to let the option lapse. I am asking the both of you to consider your means, a decision that you and your husband should make. It may be the biggest decision in your life....

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    I must be very bored. Here you go

    http://www.update.sg/whatsnew/dec08/..._dec08_p3.html

    The reliable source is URA at www.ura.gov.sg they quote it.

    Table [7] – Total no. of TOP lapsed in October 2008

    Units returned in Oct 2008 Project name
    No. of units returned
    Beacon Heights 1
    Clover By The Park 1
    Concourse Skyline 14
    Kovan Residences 1
    Madison Residences 2
    Parc Sophia 2
    Silversea 5
    Soleil @ Sinaran 2
    The Peak @ Balmeg 11
    Trasalveo 5
    Viva 5
    Waterfront Waves 2

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    Quote Originally Posted by gfoo
    deja vu - layout almost exactly the same as Buckley Residences i was about to buy in Jan 09 - but wife found it a little too small sighz. nice layout
    gfoo, your wife is right. it really is a mickey mousehole... after deducting the stairwell, the roof terrace, the balcony, the household shelter, the true livable area is approx 550sqft.

    i lived in a Novelty Land apt for 2 years. suffice to say that it is the last time I shall endeavour to stay in a Novelty-developed unit. The hallmarks of Novelty are abound.... small liveable space, small kitchen, small bedrooms... everything is small, except for the un-liveable areas.

    ocoloco79,

    Actually your situation is pretty interesting. Based on today's prices, what you've paid is not exorbitant, though your combined pay of $10k per month is not much, esp taking into account of the fact that a large part of the HDB loan is still outstanding. How are your savings/other investments like?

    Having seen (and invested in) private properties for a number of years, there is really a limited upside to your unit. Firstly, it is in a non-prime district, and you paid a huge premium (based on purchase price/real liveable area) for the unit. Secondly, whilst the floor plan looks good, the real product will be only suited for singles and couples (with no kids), which put you in direct competition with the true MM units which cost $500-600k in the area. Thirdly, there are a number of things which investors pay a premium for - a large living room with a nice view (the living room in the floor plan is only large enough for a 3-seater sofa; that gives you a rough indication of its size); and a large MBR (the MBR in the floor plan again only supports the size of an avg 1.6m (approx) wardrobe, again a rough indication of its size. With this, whilst a floorplan looks attractive, the actual TOP product might be tough to rent or to sell.

    My 2 cents. As for the decision to have kids, it is never cast in stone. my hubby and I made the same decision not to have kids a long time ago, but nonetheless we still had one before I turned 30. My take is that the place you bought is rather exp.... I bought a 10-years old FH 3-bedder 940sqft unit at Kim Yam road (D9) with no balcony/planter/PES/terrace/bay-window (ie the 940sqft is fully liveable area) 3 months ago for the same price you paid. Look around. There are good deals around, esp in older devts.

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    totally agree wid ya N2M. thank god my wife stopped me fr offering and so we ended up wid the current ol' place. layouts are important. my 9XX sqft 2 bedder is totally livable space (no balc, flr-to-ceilg windows) - and we're now building a 3rd bedroom, still retaining a largish living room

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    Quote Originally Posted by Condorich
    I must be very bored. Here you go

    http://www.update.sg/whatsnew/dec08/..._dec08_p3.html

    The reliable source is URA at www.ura.gov.sg they quote it.

    Table [7] – Total no. of TOP lapsed in October 2008

    Units returned in Oct 2008 Project name
    No. of units returned
    Beacon Heights 1
    Clover By The Park 1
    Concourse Skyline 14
    Kovan Residences 1
    Madison Residences 2
    Parc Sophia 2
    Silversea 5
    Soleil @ Sinaran 2
    The Peak @ Balmeg 11
    Trasalveo 5
    Viva 5
    Waterfront Waves 2
    Thank you for the extra miles . After much consideration upon reading all advices, weighing pros and cons, we felt that we should take the risk, best reason being the quiet location is something we want and we are very familiar with this area. It is walking distance to our current home. On top of that, we think that a penthouse unit below 1 mil is hard to come by. Penthouse is important for my hubby as he value the roof attic more than livable area becos he loves small scale sky gardening, even though i prefer to have bigger livable spaces. I need a top floor unit too and we find difficulty finding top floor unit or penthouse resale unit that suits our requirement on sale. On top of that, it is near mrt + freehold, so below 1 mil even more difficult in future.
    $12K may not be alot, compared to the risk I am taking. But we are kinda hesitant to give up the 12K unless I am certain that my case is a confirm doom case. I share your sentiments, I deem my case as borderline, so hanging mid air, tough decision. Although I do have life line as my family has the ability to help, but prefer to handle it on our own, do not wish to strain relationships because of money.

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    Quote Originally Posted by new2mondrian
    gfoo, your wife is right. it really is a mickey mousehole... after deducting the stairwell, the roof terrace, the balcony, the household shelter, the true livable area is approx 550sqft.

    i lived in a Novelty Land apt for 2 years. suffice to say that it is the last time I shall endeavour to stay in a Novelty-developed unit. The hallmarks of Novelty are abound.... small liveable space, small kitchen, small bedrooms... everything is small, except for the un-liveable areas.

    ocoloco79,

    Actually your situation is pretty interesting. Based on today's prices, what you've paid is not exorbitant, though your combined pay of $10k per month is not much, esp taking into account of the fact that a large part of the HDB loan is still outstanding. How are your savings/other investments like?

    Having seen (and invested in) private properties for a number of years, there is really a limited upside to your unit. Firstly, it is in a non-prime district, and you paid a huge premium (based on purchase price/real liveable area) for the unit. Secondly, whilst the floor plan looks good, the real product will be only suited for singles and couples (with no kids), which put you in direct competition with the true MM units which cost $500-600k in the area. Thirdly, there are a number of things which investors pay a premium for - a large living room with a nice view (the living room in the floor plan is only large enough for a 3-seater sofa; that gives you a rough indication of its size); and a large MBR (the MBR in the floor plan again only supports the size of an avg 1.6m (approx) wardrobe, again a rough indication of its size. With this, whilst a floorplan looks attractive, the actual TOP product might be tough to rent or to sell.

    My 2 cents. As for the decision to have kids, it is never cast in stone. my hubby and I made the same decision not to have kids a long time ago, but nonetheless we still had one before I turned 30. My take is that the place you bought is rather exp.... I bought a 10-years old FH 3-bedder 940sqft unit at Kim Yam road (D9) with no balcony/planter/PES/terrace/bay-window (ie the 940sqft is fully liveable area) 3 months ago for the same price you paid. Look around. There are good deals around, esp in older devts.

    whahaha....none Prime District so little upside based on other conditions. Please refer to the Stadia post. Folks 2 years back saying 800plus psf is damn expensive and will only pay 600psf for district 19. If one wants big area without balcony/planter and BIG living room.....why don't go for Maisonette? Those are also good deals. The reason for you being able to get same price at D9 is because such apartment design is considered out-dated. I for one will not pay a single cent for such a unit even if it is D9.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gfoo
    lol like i said, in an up market, everyone is an instant guru
    Hehe....only 50% correct, in a property downturn, as we have seen all over various property forum, everyone is an instant guru also. So in whatever market, all gurus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenshinto80
    Quote Originally Posted by gfoo
    lol like i said, in an up market, everyone is an instant guru
    Hehe....only 50% correct, in a property downturn, as we have seen all over various property forum, everyone is an instant guru also. So in whatever market, all gurus.
    But the gurus in an "up market" and the gurus in a "property downturn" are not the same gurus.

    Now is an "up market", so I (and my PROPERTISM) am the guru!

    If the market crashes tomorrow, I'll disappear from this forum (like what I have done for one year after the Lehman Crisis ) and then new "gurus" will come to this forum and I can imagine that they will crack jokes like ...

    "Do you remember that PROPERTISM joker who said that property prices could only go up and invested 100% of his money in properties? Wonder what happened to him now?"

    If this happens, please don't worry. I may be down, but not out. I will come back again one day. Because property prices will surely go up again, in the long term. That's rule No. 1 in PROPERTISM.

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    Infact in my opinion you should have consider D18 project Double bay residence which is close to simei mrt, upcoming singapore 4th university and mega developement at changi business park. Further more price is reasonable and govt just release another land for tender for around 200+ units so prices are expected to go up. You could have buy a resale market as all units are sold out.


    Quote Originally Posted by ocoloco79
    Thank you for the extra miles . After much consideration upon reading all advices, weighing pros and cons, we felt that we should take the risk, best reason being the quiet location is something we want and we are very familiar with this area. It is walking distance to our current home. On top of that, we think that a penthouse unit below 1 mil is hard to come by. Penthouse is important for my hubby as he value the roof attic more than livable area becos he loves small scale sky gardening, even though i prefer to have bigger livable spaces. I need a top floor unit too and we find difficulty finding top floor unit or penthouse resale unit that suits our requirement on sale. On top of that, it is near mrt + freehold, so below 1 mil even more difficult in future.
    $12K may not be alot, compared to the risk I am taking. But we are kinda hesitant to give up the 12K unless I am certain that my case is a confirm doom case. I share your sentiments, I deem my case as borderline, so hanging mid air, tough decision. Although I do have life line as my family has the ability to help, but prefer to handle it on our own, do not wish to strain relationships because of money.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tanumy, 24 March 2010 11.34 pm
    Infact in my opinion you should have consider D18 project Double bay residence which is close to simei mrt, upcoming singapore 4th university and mega developement at changi business park. Further more price is reasonable and govt just release another land for tender for around 200+ units so prices are expected to go up. You could have buy a resale market as all units are sold out.
    Does this "familiar" post mark the end of our fruitful discussion and also serve as the conclusion/closure?

    Thank you everyone for your contribution and goodnight!
    "ocoloco79", all the best in your purchase.

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    i really couldn't hold back my laughter when i saw tanumy's post... really made my day...oops, night...


    Quote Originally Posted by Reporter
    Does this "familiar" post mark the end of our fruitful discussion and also serve as the conclusion/closure?

    Thank you everyone for your contribution and goodnight!
    "ocoloco79", all the best in your purchase.

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    I am not too sure if the below is correct. In theory, the bank is the owner of the mortagage, so the bank will not stop disbursing the funds to the developer. It is really between the bank and the buyer. The CPF has 1st charge followed by the bank and then followed by the buyer.

    If you pay direct to developer, there is no need to top up in the first place. Because you will need to pay all/remaining sum to the developer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Condorich
    Sorry cannot help you with this one because never encountered. What I know is that it happened to some buyers before.

    The banks will inform you if you need to top up or when they will suspend the bank payment to developers. That is when you need to pay cash direct to developers. I would say that you will need to top up when the valuation is less than the outstanding loan granted say, valuation dropped to $700k and outstanding loan $800k.. may have to top up $100k (but again, please excuse me here if incorrect)

    There's a trigger point when the value falls below a certain trashhold..

    Perhaps the other experienced forummers could help you on this.


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    Quote Originally Posted by gohsoonk
    I am not too sure if the below is correct. In theory, the bank is the owner of the mortagage, so the bank will not stop disbursing the funds to the developer. It is really between the bank and the buyer. The CPF has 1st charge followed by the bank and then followed by the buyer.

    If you pay direct to developer, there is no need to top up in the first place. Because you will need to pay all/remaining sum to the developer.
    I am not sure and you are also not sure... hopefully someone can be sure and post.

    But some flaws in your reasoning... Mortagage... If banks will not stop disbursing the funds to the developer... then I will not pay and just relax when I know that the banks will not stop disbursing to the developer. Banks will never be suckers!

    CPF first charge? Used to be in the past... should not be the case now.. ask your lawyers now. http://mycpf.cpf.gov.sg/CPF/my-cpf/buy-house/BH6.htm

    b) Private PropertyThe CPF charge will take effect on the property when the CPF savings are released. For private residential properties bought or refinanced after 1 September 2003, the ranking of the charge is shown in the Table below:


    1st Charge Outstanding housing loan from your financier


    2nd Charge CPF principal sum up to 100% Valuation Limit plus CPF withdrawals used for the legal and stamp fees in the purchase


    3rd Charge Equal ranking (pari passu) -CPF principal sum beyond the 100% Valuation Limit plus accrued interest -Repayment of outstanding balance of the housing loan interests


    4th Charge Equal ranking (pari passu) -CPF legal costs and expenses -Financier's legal costs and expenses

    Pay all remaining sum... if so die liao... more than the cost of HDB, into negative equity... die die


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    Quote Originally Posted by bargain hunter
    i really couldn't hold back my laughter when i saw tanumy's post... really made my day...oops, night...
    I was relieved to hear that all sold out... but I have a nightmare yesterday that tanumy's new line will be..

    you guessed it ... "go buy DBR from sub sale".... go buy... go buy... like a begger... "4th uni....." "High potential"..."Best choice".... are also possible new lines..


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    Quote Originally Posted by bargain hunter
    i really couldn't hold back my laughter when i saw tanumy's post... really made my day...oops, night...
    Sorry ofr being ignorant.. Why is the post funny? You mean all sold out hence he shouldn't ask me to buy? Or too popular and expensive?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ocoloco79
    Sorry ofr being ignorant.. Why is the post funny? You mean all sold out hence he shouldn't ask me to buy? Or too popular and expensive?
    ok I got it, he is the agent for this project as I saw him posting adverts all over hee hee...

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    hey, dun like that leh, at least pple got put in effort wor, this is the longest and most detailed advertising post...unlike the previous one liners.

    Quote Originally Posted by Condorich
    I was relieved to hear that all sold out... but I have a nightmare yesterday that tanumy's new line will be..

    you guessed it ... "go buy DBR from sub sale".... go buy... go buy... like a begger... "4th uni....." "High potential"..."Best choice".... are also possible new lines..


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    not sure if agent or not but most certainly zou huo ru mo... invading every other project.


    Quote Originally Posted by ocoloco79
    ok I got it, he is the agent for this project as I saw him posting adverts all over hee hee...

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    DBR ftw !!! lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by bargain hunter
    hey, dun like that leh, at least pple got put in effort wor, this is the longest and most detailed advertising post...unlike the previous one liners.
    Yes.. I was surprised too... normally he/she will just post 1 liners....

    But amazingly.... so many lines.... too bad conclusion is the same... DBR

    guess all seen too much postings by him/her on DBR

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    Quote Originally Posted by ocoloco79
    Thank you for the extra miles . After much consideration upon reading all advices, weighing pros and cons, we felt that we should take the risk, best reason being the quiet location is something we want and we are very familiar with this area. It is walking distance to our current home. On top of that, we think that a penthouse unit below 1 mil is hard to come by. Penthouse is important for my hubby as he value the roof attic more than livable area becos he loves small scale sky gardening, even though i prefer to have bigger livable spaces. I need a top floor unit too and we find difficulty finding top floor unit or penthouse resale unit that suits our requirement on sale. On top of that, it is near mrt + freehold, so below 1 mil even more difficult in future.
    $12K may not be alot, compared to the risk I am taking. But we are kinda hesitant to give up the 12K unless I am certain that my case is a confirm doom case. I share your sentiments, I deem my case as borderline, so hanging mid air, tough decision. Although I do have life line as my family has the ability to help, but prefer to handle it on our own, do not wish to strain relationships because of money.
    Glad that you guys come to a consensus on what to do with the property. All the best and enjoy it! And who knows, maybe a year or two later if prices go berserk, you can sell it for a decent gain too!

    As a sidenote on top floor PH units, actually in recent years there is a proliferation of such units, and despite their small liveable area, one can be surprised at how people can fit 4-5 pax in the unit. Hence anything is possible. I know of this family of 5 (couple with 2 young kids and a maid) who stays in the top floor PH unit at Casa Meya (next to Potong Pasir station), which is really a MM unit with 2 small bedrooms and a roof terrace. They did everything on the roof terrace; the kids play there (and all their toys are stored there), maid does her ironing and laundry and even prepares dinner there, and the dad reads papers there plus waters all his plants in the planter boxes... whenever there are guests, the guests have their meals there as well. So unliveable also becomes liveable space.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenshinto80
    whahaha....none Prime District so little upside based on other conditions. Please refer to the Stadia post. Folks 2 years back saying 800plus psf is damn expensive and will only pay 600psf for district 19. If one wants big area without balcony/planter and BIG living room.....why don't go for Maisonette? Those are also good deals. The reason for you being able to get same price at D9 is because such apartment design is considered out-dated. I for one will not pay a single cent for such a unit even if it is D9.
    erm, u mean an apartment design with no planters/balcony is outdated? apologies, I fail to see the link. I can think of tonnes of apartment designs that are without such unliveable spaces that are still "in"!

    At the end of the day, to each his own. Personally I prefer full liveable space with full height windows, which the Kim Yam unit has for the whole living/dining/study but with no planters/balconies to fully utilise the space and bring in the light. But of course, there are others who love huge planters and even larger balconies.... so well.... no layout is superior than the other as long as it suits one's lifestyle and preference.

    Maisonette is of course good... landed even better! but in terms of dollar quantum, if you can find a FH/999yr maisonette with 2000sqft liveable space in river valley area that cost $950k, plse let me know asap. I will buy it regardless its apartment design, dated or otherwise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Condorich
    ... and you are also not sure...
    he's being polite.

    Quote Originally Posted by [B
    gohsoonk] [/B]In theory, the bank is the owner of the mortagage, so the bank will not stop disbursing the funds to the developer
    this is correct. When a buyer secures a mortgage, the risk of buyer default is no longer borne by the developer, but rather by the bank. Bank has to pay developer. It's between you and the bank for whatever valuation matters.

    ocoloco79 : relax. you take a risk. so what. you both like the place, that's the most important. risk taking is one very important factor in this pty business. Some members here are so risk adverse, there is point to talk abt pty at all. Remember mortgage is the cheapest loan you can take in life. Granted a 10k income paying both a 1m pte and 300k HDB is a bit tight, it's not at all entirely reckless, considering the pte is BUC, so u really just loan 40% for most of the time before TOP. So congrats.

    (read what gfoo/N2M said. the most important thing is not if u overpaid or what. It's " do you really like it ?" Personally I dun like this type. But if you like it a lot, then it's a good buy for you. )

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    Quote Originally Posted by gfoo
    totally agree wid ya N2M. thank god my wife stopped me fr offering and so we ended up wid the current ol' place. layouts are important. my 9XX sqft 2 bedder is totally livable space (no balc, flr-to-ceilg windows) - and we're now building a 3rd bedroom, still retaining a largish living room
    gfoo, i am interested in how u managed to partition out another room at your unit (cos I was looking at a 9XX sqft unit at Sail last month). can share where u are carving out the space from?

    u are right.... don't touch the living room. it is one of the key strengths of the sail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by amk
    Granted a 10k income paying both a 1m pte and 300k HDB is a bit tight, it's not at all entirely reckless, considering the pte is BUC, so u really just loan 40% for most of the time before TOP. So congrats.
    Hi amk,

    i dun get you in that part which you said I just loan 40% most of the time b4 TOP.. Sorry I am very blur...
    Last edited by ocoloco79; 25-03-10 at 13:08.

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    Quote Originally Posted by amk
    he's being polite.
    Thanks.. anyway qualifier stated. So they have to do their own research or fact finding. You may be right but I would not take it as is unless I have them from credible sources. No doubt the relationship is between the mortgagee and mortgagor, was told that banks might stop payment for progressive payments (their call) and you have to pay directly to developer or breach the Sales & Purchase agreement and lose your 20%.

    Risk appetite is subjective and up to individual... you can be all the hero in shame... or live another day in pride. I am sure not all bankrupts wanted to be bankrupts.

    The thing about buying everything is the same.. you like it, you buy it. Provided you can pay. Simple as that. Affordability...

    Buy LV bags versus cheap china bags.. all bags actually. But what's the difference... I can afford it.

    What I am glad to see if that at least it appears that it is a joint decision and they purchased what they really liked. At least, they would have resigned to fate if anything goes wrong. But if they are right, they will be even happier as it was a joint decision. That's all it matters to me. Helping them to decide and not to decide for them.

    On the 40%.... it should be on the progressive payment status... if you are interested, orocolo79.. self study.

    http://www.ura.gov.sg/lad/HBG/
    Last edited by Condorich; 25-03-10 at 13:27.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Condorich
    What I am glad to see if that at least it appears that it is a joint decision and they purchased what they really liked. At least, they would have resigned to fate if anything goes wrong. But if they are right, they will be even happier as it was a joint decision. That's all it matters to me. Helping them to decide and not to decide for them.
    Thank you so much for everything!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ocoloco79
    Hi amk,

    i dun get you in that part which you said I just loan 40% most of the time b4 TOP.. Sorry I am very blur...
    This project is not even started right ? say take 3ys. under progressive payment scheme, after the 1st 20%, the next payments are 10, 10, 5, 5, 5, 5 progressively, then at TOP (right after really) a big 25%, then another 1y plus later for the 15% in diff ways. Before TOP, at most u r loaning 40%.

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