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Thread: Waterfront condominium sails into troubled waters

  1. #31
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    Any projects I go, my business associates will set up support structures like medical services, food, restaurants, childcares, supermarkets etc... for my tenants. That is one of the reasons why I have an edge over the rest of the investors.

    I AM THE KING, THE LION, THE THIRD EYE.

    Good Luck.

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    Quote Originally Posted by reporter2 View Post
    http://www.straitstimes.com/archive/...aters-20130908

    Condo sails into troubled waters

    Owners approve $250,000 to fight developer over alleged defects

    Published on Sep 08, 2013

    By Joyce Lim And Charissa Yong


    Residents of waterfront condominium The Sail@Marina Bay have prepared a war chest to embark on a legal battle against its developer over damaged fixtures.

    Yesterday, about 100 owners and residents attended a tense, six-hour Extraordinary General Meeting (EGM), where they approved up to $250,000 in management funds to be used as legal fees.

    However, three other key motions to resolve the property's issues - which ranged from falling glass panels and card access security to council members allegedly misusing their power to further their careers - failed to pass.

    The long-running saga hit new heights last month, when The Sail's Management Corporation Strata Title (MCST) sent three letters of demand to its developer City Developments (CDL), calling for it to rectify the alleged defects.

    Residents claim the property developer has yet to carry out any rectification work at The Sail - Singapore's tallest condominium, which has 1,100 units.

    CDL confirmed that it had received the MCST's three letters. A spokesman said the MCST council had been responsible for The Sail's estate management and general upkeep since 2010.

    "There were service contracts that have lapsed and repairs long overdue," he said. "There are numerous internal issues of management and maintenance against the MCST council. (Our subsidiary), having handed over the property more than three years ago, should not be dragged into their internal disputes."

    Yesterday's meeting saw the condo's management council receive a mandate to take the developer to task.

    Residents told The Sunday Times that barely two years after moving into their homes in 2008, numerous defects started popping up which have become almost impossible to live with.

    In March 2011, they began to experience water leak issues at the lift and escalator areas.

    In April this year, an underground water pipe which supplies water to one of the condo's two towers burst and cut off water supply to residents living in that tower.

    "The burst pipe is a big issue," said Mr Alvin Tan, 60, a business management consultant who owns several units at The Sail. "The whole building is being compromised. The lifts were affected. There were also cracks on the glass panels of the lifts."

    A 39-year-old resident, who declined to be named, said: "As an interim measure to the burst pipe, a temporary pipework connection had to be put up to supply water to the affected tower.

    "This pipe runs over a path and driveway and across a postal room. It's not just unsightly, but a nuisance for people collecting their mail and a trip hazard, especially for the handicapped.

    "About two weeks ago, another piece of glass shattered and fell from the glass canopy at the lobby. More than 10 such pieces have shattered in the past two years. This is seriously dangerous for people walking under it."

    CDL said that the cause of the burst pipe had not been determined by the MCST.

    Yesterday's motions to fit the condo's lifts with new internal finishes which are easier and cheaper to replace, as well as upgrade its security access system to encrypted card keys, were not voted through.

    The Sunday Times understands that about 75 per cent of the vote share present yesterday was represented by proxy.

    Yesterday's EGM also saw the failure of a motion to remove three council members accused of misusing their powers.

    "They are property agents and have been subletting the units as serviced apartments," claimed Mr Tan. "This is a residential property but now we have people going in and out. It's like Geylang. I bought the units as residential units and now it's like a hotel. The Sail is located at a strategic area, but its security is a joke. Anybody can walk in.

    "At the last Annual General Meeting in June, these three council members held more than 60 per cent of the proxy votes. It's a mockery for the subsidiary proprietors."

    An online search showed several websites advertising short- term stays at The Sail. Under Urban Redevelopment Authority (URA) guidelines on leasing and subletting of residential properties, such properties are meant for stays of six months or more.

    The URA confirmed that it has received feedback that some units in The Sail are being leased for less than six months and is investigating. If investigations establish that a residential unit is being misused, the person responsible may be fined up to $200,000, imprisoned for a term of up to 12 months, or both.

    [email protected]

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    Glass fall is indeed very dangerous. The Sails got many glass people might one day get killed. Life is more important. Don't really care about view or near mrt so what if it got good location life is number one priority.
    Last edited by star; 09-09-13 at 21:02.

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    Another important thing to note about the sails at marina bay is this project TOP in 2008 only 5yrs already so many glass panels fell, if leave it another 10yrs likely whole building might goes shatter. Better avoid this project for your own safety and your family. Maintenance fee will rocket high in near future.
    Last edited by star; 09-09-13 at 21:41.

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    Quote Originally Posted by star View Post
    Another important thing to note about the sails at marina bay is this project TOP in 2008 only 5yrs already so many glass panels fell, if leave it another 10yrs likely whole building might goes shatter. Better avoid this project for your own safety and your family. Maintenance fee will rocket high in near future.
    How come so many glasses fell never reported in newspaper? Or did I miss those news?


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    Quote Originally Posted by star View Post
    Glass fall is indeed very dangerous. The Sails got many glass people might one day get killed. Life is more important. Don't really care about view or near mrt so what if it got good location life is number one priority.
    Very good point. Safety comes first

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackjack21trader View Post
    How come so many glasses fell never reported in newspaper? Or did I miss those news?

    Bro BJ, go and read about it on the strait times on sunday, september 8, page 21.

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    1) 1,100 units in 1 estate! What do you expect? Wear & tear faster than they can repair!

    2) I already warned in 2009/2010 about those condos where walls are totally glasses! People buy at their own risk!

    3) What security can you talk about when there is no fence around the estate, and any tom, dick and harry can walk in and anybody can drive into their car park?


    Quote Originally Posted by reporter2 View Post
    http://www.straitstimes.com/archive/...aters-20130908

    Condo sails into troubled waters

    Owners approve $250,000 to fight developer over alleged defects

    Published on Sep 08, 2013

    By Joyce Lim And Charissa Yong


    Residents of waterfront condominium The Sail@Marina Bay have prepared a war chest to embark on a legal battle against its developer over damaged fixtures.

    Yesterday, about 100 owners and residents attended a tense, six-hour Extraordinary General Meeting (EGM), where they approved up to $250,000 in management funds to be used as legal fees.

    However, three other key motions to resolve the property's issues - which ranged from falling glass panels and card access security to council members allegedly misusing their power to further their careers - failed to pass.

    The long-running saga hit new heights last month, when The Sail's Management Corporation Strata Title (MCST) sent three letters of demand to its developer City Developments (CDL), calling for it to rectify the alleged defects.

    Residents claim the property developer has yet to carry out any rectification work at The Sail - Singapore's tallest condominium, which has 1,100 units.

    CDL confirmed that it had received the MCST's three letters. A spokesman said the MCST council had been responsible for The Sail's estate management and general upkeep since 2010.

    "There were service contracts that have lapsed and repairs long overdue," he said. "There are numerous internal issues of management and maintenance against the MCST council. (Our subsidiary), having handed over the property more than three years ago, should not be dragged into their internal disputes."

    Yesterday's meeting saw the condo's management council receive a mandate to take the developer to task.

    Residents told The Sunday Times that barely two years after moving into their homes in 2008, numerous defects started popping up which have become almost impossible to live with.

    In March 2011, they began to experience water leak issues at the lift and escalator areas.

    In April this year, an underground water pipe which supplies water to one of the condo's two towers burst and cut off water supply to residents living in that tower.

    "The burst pipe is a big issue," said Mr Alvin Tan, 60, a business management consultant who owns several units at The Sail. "The whole building is being compromised. The lifts were affected. There were also cracks on the glass panels of the lifts."

    A 39-year-old resident, who declined to be named, said: "As an interim measure to the burst pipe, a temporary pipework connection had to be put up to supply water to the affected tower.

    "This pipe runs over a path and driveway and across a postal room. It's not just unsightly, but a nuisance for people collecting their mail and a trip hazard, especially for the handicapped.

    "About two weeks ago, another piece of glass shattered and fell from the glass canopy at the lobby. More than 10 such pieces have shattered in the past two years. This is seriously dangerous for people walking under it."

    CDL said that the cause of the burst pipe had not been determined by the MCST.

    Yesterday's motions to fit the condo's lifts with new internal finishes which are easier and cheaper to replace, as well as upgrade its security access system to encrypted card keys, were not voted through.

    The Sunday Times understands that about 75 per cent of the vote share present yesterday was represented by proxy.

    Yesterday's EGM also saw the failure of a motion to remove three council members accused of misusing their powers.

    "They are property agents and have been subletting the units as serviced apartments," claimed Mr Tan. "This is a residential property but now we have people going in and out. It's like Geylang. I bought the units as residential units and now it's like a hotel. The Sail is located at a strategic area, but its security is a joke. Anybody can walk in.

    "At the last Annual General Meeting in June, these three council members held more than 60 per cent of the proxy votes. It's a mockery for the subsidiary proprietors."

    An online search showed several websites advertising short- term stays at The Sail. Under Urban Redevelopment Authority (URA) guidelines on leasing and subletting of residential properties, such properties are meant for stays of six months or more.

    The URA confirmed that it has received feedback that some units in The Sail are being leased for less than six months and is investigating. If investigations establish that a residential unit is being misused, the person responsible may be fined up to $200,000, imprisoned for a term of up to 12 months, or both.

    [email protected]

    [email protected]

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    Quote Originally Posted by teddybear View Post
    1) 1,100 units in 1 estate! What do you expect? Wear & tear faster than they can repair!

    2) I already warned in 2009/2010 about those condos where walls are totally glasses! People buy at their own risk!

    3) What security can you talk about when there is no fence around the estate, and any tom, dick and harry can walk in and anybody can drive into their car park?

    bro

    I don't think being all glass is an issue... where I live in Manhattan ...so many full glassed buildings ... no such problem

    I suspect its the weekly fireworks.... constant pounding by sound waves ...

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    Not falling glasses. It is things that were dropped down and shattered the glass roof top.



    Quote Originally Posted by blackjack21trader View Post
    How come so many glasses fell never reported in newspaper? Or did I miss those news?


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    Yup, security is a big concern. I don't like the lobby and carpark being opened to the public.

    The lobby should be locked but then again, many condos have open carpark concept as well.

    The wear and tear is similar to other condos IMO. 5 years old, so reasonable damage. But after it is damage, some of the things don't get fixed. That is the problem.


    Quote Originally Posted by teddybear View Post
    1) 1,100 units in 1 estate! What do you expect? Wear & tear faster than they can repair!

    2) I already warned in 2009/2010 about those condos where walls are totally glasses! People buy at their own risk!

    3) What security can you talk about when there is no fence around the estate, and any tom, dick and harry can walk in and anybody can drive into their car park?

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    dont worry, there will always be suckers who go for brand (D1) rather than substance.

    But there is always hope for En bloc (IF) URA could increase the plot ratio after PLAB move out. But that might not happen for another 20 to 30 years.
    "Never argue with an idiot, or he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience."

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    Quote Originally Posted by thomastansb View Post
    Yup, security is a big concern. I don't like the lobby and carpark being opened to the public.

    The lobby should be locked but then again, many condos have open carpark concept as well.

    The wear and tear is similar to other condos IMO. 5 years old, so reasonable damage. But after it is damage, some of the things don't get fixed. That is the problem.
    Sorry, I am dumb - why sue CDL? the 1 year warranty period is over right? What does the resident expect CDL to do? I am confused by the sue CDL part.

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    Quote Originally Posted by darkseed73 View Post
    Sorry, I am dumb - why sue CDL? the 1 year warranty period is over right? What does the resident expect CDL to do? I am confused by the sue CDL part.
    structure is usually 5 years. 1 year is for appliances
    "Never argue with an idiot, or he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience."

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    isnt there only 2 residential projects that have full bayview?
    no more additional supply coming up.

    if sail enbloc, wouldn't owner have first choice to select the units?

    even if plot ratio dont increase. developer can do the following.
    1) balcony is ridiculously small, after enbloc, "normal size" balcony will give additional 10% free gfa for developer.

    2) also sail no double volume void space, after enbloc, void space will give additional 30% (or more) free gfa for developer.

    3) the ac ledge is ridiculously small, after enbloc, "normal size" ac ledge additional 10% free gfa for developer.

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    There is no brand. Just convenience. Where in Singapore you can find 4 MRT lines? As I said, it fits my lifestyle perfectly. Weekend go down lim kopi or jog to barrage and back.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ringo33 View Post
    dont worry, there will always be suckers who go for brand (D1) rather than substance.

    But there is always hope for En bloc (IF) URA could increase the plot ratio after PLAB move out. But that might not happen for another 20 to 30 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ringo33 View Post
    structure is usually 5 years. 1 year is for appliances
    I didn't know the sail have structural issues.

    From what have being posted, it seems to be broken things are not fixed. Do MCST have to fix, amend or CDL have to send ppl in to fix - why must go to courts. Did CDL deny all responsibilties? Can any resident enlighten?

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    Quote Originally Posted by darkseed73 View Post
    ....Did CDL deny all responsibilties? Can any resident enlighten?
    huh? face-2-palm.
    if accept responsibilities, CDL has to come out with money la.
    if dont accept responsibilities, then CDL no need to come out with money.

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    If there are structural issues, BCA would have chased all of us out. There isn't any structural issues. Just many things unfixed. Actually the very first AGM, there are tons of things unresolved. CDL say they will fix but didn't. Then drag from 2009 till now. People go to court because we think it is CDL problem but CDL don't want to pay extra.




    Quote Originally Posted by darkseed73 View Post
    I didn't know the sail have structural issues.

    From what have being posted, it seems to be broken things are not fixed. Do MCST have to fix, amend or CDL have to send ppl in to fix - why must go to courts. Did CDL deny all responsibilties? Can any resident enlighten?

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    Quote Originally Posted by thomastansb View Post
    If there are structural issues, BCA would have chased all of us out. There isn't any structural issues. Just many things unfixed. Actually the very first AGM, there are tons of things unresolved. CDL say they will fix but didn't. Then drag from 2009 till now. People go to court because we think it is CDL problem but CDL don't want to pay extra.
    Thanks Thomastansb.

    I read the Sail issues with great interest becos my office and gym is near there but didn't want to live near it....becos don't want to restrict my life in CBD lol

    I go fitness first and always see the Sail when I gym.

    It looks real fine from the outside, didn't expect it to have "lots of issue" but thanks for your response. It seems it's an issue which drag from 2009 till now, not really structural and hopefully your MCST has records that CDL promise to fix, else they may deny that they already done their due.

    Good luck on this guys.

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    "In the event that latent defects are observed beyond the one-year defects liability period, purchasers can still take civil action against the developer, said a spokesman from the Urban Redevelopment Authority (URA). "Beyond the one-year defects liability period, purchasers can still take civil action against the developer for latent defects due to negligence or breach of contract, within six years from the date that the damage arose, or three years from the date that the damage was discovered, whichever is later."

    However, developers should first be given an opportunity to rectify any genuine building defect, whether patent or latent, that the purchasers claim the developers are liable for."

    SOURCE:
    http://www.stproperty.sg/articles-pr...putes/a/102830

  21. #51
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    If need to set aside $250k for lawyer fees and yet can't fix all those problems, means it costs MUCH MUCH more than $250k to fix all those problem? Mmm...., looks like BIG PROBLEM indeed!

    Let's say The Sail's MCST lose the law suit, have to come out with another $Million or more to fix the problems and lose another $250k on lawyer fees + may have to pay CDL costs for their legal fees?


    Quote Originally Posted by thomastansb View Post
    If there are structural issues, BCA would have chased all of us out. There isn't any structural issues. Just many things unfixed. Actually the very first AGM, there are tons of things unresolved. CDL say they will fix but didn't. Then drag from 2009 till now. People go to court because we think it is CDL problem but CDL don't want to pay extra.

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    Oh is it? Strange, the straits times article below says it is glass shattering and falling down.


    Quote Originally Posted by thomastansb View Post
    Not falling glasses. It is things that were dropped down and shattered the glass roof top.

    Condo sails into troubled waters






    Tuesday, Sep 10, 2013


    Joyce Lim
    Charissa Yong


    The Sunday Times




    SINGAPORE - Residents of waterfront condominium The Sail@Marina Bay have prepared a war chest to embark on a legal battle against its developer over damaged fixtures.
    On Saturday, about 100 owners and residents attended a tense, six-hour Extraordinary General Meeting (EGM), where they approved up to $250,000 in management funds to be used as legal fees.
    However, three other key motions to resolve the property's issues - which ranged from falling glass panels and card access security to council members allegedly misusing their power to further their careers - failed to pass.
    The long-running saga hit new heights last month, when The Sail's Management Corporation Strata Title (MCST) sent three letters of demand to its developer City Developments (CDL), calling for it to rectify the alleged defects.
    Residents claim the property developer has yet to carry out any rectification work at The Sail - Singapore's tallest condominium, which has 1,100 units.
    CDL confirmed that it had received the MCST's three letters. A spokesman said the MCST council had been responsible for The Sail's estate management and general upkeep since 2010.
    "There were service contracts that have lapsed and repairs long overdue," he said. "There are numerous internal issues of management and maintenance against the MCST council. (Our subsidiary), having handed over the property more than three years ago, should not be dragged into their internal disputes."
    Saturday's meeting saw the condo's management council receive a mandate to take the developer to task.
    Residents told The Sunday Times that barely two years after moving into their homes in 2008, numerous defects started popping up which have become almost impossible to live with.
    In March 2011, they began to experience water leak issues at the lift and escalator areas.
    In April this year, an underground water pipe which supplies water to one of the condo's two towers burst and cut off water supply to residents living in that tower.
    "The burst pipe is a big issue," said Mr Alvin Tan, 60, a business management consultant who owns several units at The Sail. "The whole building is being compromised. The lifts were affected. There were also cracks on the glass panels of the lifts."
    A 39-year-old resident, who declined to be named, said: "As an interim measure to the burst pipe, a temporary pipework connection had to be put up to supply water to the affected tower.
    "This pipe runs over a path and driveway and across a postal room. It's not just unsightly, but a nuisance for people collecting their mail and a trip hazard, especially for the handicapped.
    "About two weeks ago, another piece of glass shattered and fell from the glass canopy at the lobby. More than 10 such pieces have shattered in the past two years. This is seriously dangerous for people walking under it."
    CDL said that the cause of the burst pipe had not been determined by the MCST.
    Yesterday's motions to fit the condo's lifts with new internal finishes which are easier and cheaper to replace, as well as upgrade its security access system to encrypted card keys, were not voted through.
    The Sunday Times understands that about 75 per cent of the vote share present on Saturday was represented by proxy.
    Yesterday's EGM also saw the failure of a motion to remove three council members accused of misusing their powers.
    "They are property agents and have been subletting the units as serviced apartments," claimed Mr Tan. "This is a residential property but now we have people going in and out. It's like Geylang. I bought the units as residential units and now it's like a hotel. The Sail is located at a strategic area, but its security is a joke. Anybody can walk in.
    "At the last Annual General Meeting in June, these three council members held more than 60 per cent of the proxy votes. It's a mockery for the subsidiary proprietors."
    An online search showed several websites advertising short- term stays at The Sail. Under Urban Redevelopment Authority (URA) guidelines on leasing and subletting of residential properties, such properties are meant for stays of six months or more.
    The URA confirmed that it has received feedback that some units in The Sail are being leased for less than six months and is investigating. If investigations establish that a residential unit is being misused, the person responsible may be fined up to $200,000, imprisoned for a term of up to 12 months, or both.
    [email protected]
    [email protected]

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    If it is really due to fireworks, why we don't see The Sail's neighbouring building has so many of their glasses shattering and falling down but only The Sail?

    As to why Manhattan no such problem, it could be more due to better quality of glasses used and better skilled worksmanship?


    Quote Originally Posted by proud owner View Post
    bro

    I don't think being all glass is an issue... where I live in Manhattan ...so many full glassed buildings ... no such problem

    I suspect its the weekly fireworks.... constant pounding by sound waves ...

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    Very unlikely they will lose - i m sure they must have hired an expert to check n verify that defects exist otherwise they wouldn't take the case to court

    In fact the court hearing will be an eye opener as then many people will be aware of the "cut corners attitude" that contractors and developers take....



    Quote Originally Posted by teddybear View Post
    If need to set aside $250k for lawyer fees and yet can't fix all those problems, means it costs MUCH MUCH more than $250k to fix all those problem? Mmm...., looks like BIG PROBLEM indeed!

    Let's say The Sail's MCST lose the law suit, have to come out with another $Million or more to fix the problems and lose another $250k on lawyer fees + may have to pay CDL costs for their legal fees?

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    There is no guarantee. The Sail's MCST may lose if:
    1) Their expert is not as expert as those engaged by CDL.
    2) Their lawyer is not as good as CDL.
    3) Defects/flaws/etc many are grey areas, and many you cannot concretely pinpoint to the real cause of the problem, e.g. use thinner pipes cause burst or something sabotage? How to define using poorer quality pipes vs using good quality expensive pipes? There is no contract saying you must use better quality materials right? What about poor workmanship and warranty period already over?
    4) What else???


    Quote Originally Posted by ppty View Post
    Very unlikely they will lose - i m sure they must have hired an expert to check n verify that defects exist otherwise they wouldn't take the case to court

    In fact the court hearing will be an eye opener as then many people will be aware of the "cut corners attitude" that contractors and developers take....

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    Quote Originally Posted by teddybear View Post
    There is no guarantee. The Sail's MCST may lose if:
    1) Their expert is not as expert as those engaged by CDL.
    2) Their lawyer is not as good as CDL.
    3) Defects/flaws/etc many are grey areas, and many you cannot concretely pinpoint to the real cause of the problem, e.g. use thinner pipes cause burst or something sabotage? How to define using poorer quality pipes vs using good quality expensive pipes? There is no contract saying you must use better quality materials right? What about poor workmanship and warranty period already over?
    4) What else???
    If owner sure win, will cdl go court??? Or will they settle this out of court???

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    URA. "Beyond the one-year defects liability period, purchasers can still take civil action against the developer for latent defects due to negligence or breach of contract, within six years from the date that the damage arose, or three years from the date that the damage was discovered, whichever is later."






    Quote Originally Posted by teddybear View Post
    There is no guarantee. The Sail's MCST may lose if:
    1) Their expert is not as expert as those engaged by CDL.
    2) Their lawyer is not as good as CDL.
    3) Defects/flaws/etc many are grey areas, and many you cannot concretely pinpoint to the real cause of the problem, e.g. use thinner pipes cause burst or something sabotage? How to define using poorer quality pipes vs using good quality expensive pipes? There is no contract saying you must use better quality materials right? What about poor workmanship and warranty period already over?
    4) What else???

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    So, The Sail's MCST has to prove that the defects is "latent defects due to negligence or breach of contract" of CDL. Is it that easy to prove?


    Quote Originally Posted by ppty View Post
    URA. "Beyond the one-year defects liability period, purchasers can still take civil action against the developer for latent defects due to negligence or breach of contract, within six years from the date that the damage arose, or three years from the date that the damage was discovered, whichever is later."

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    Quote Originally Posted by teddybear View Post
    There is no guarantee. The Sail's MCST may lose if:
    1) Their expert is not as expert as those engaged by CDL.
    2) Their lawyer is not as good as CDL.
    3) Defects/flaws/etc many are grey areas, and many you cannot concretely pinpoint to the real cause of the problem, e.g. use thinner pipes cause burst or something sabotage? How to define using poorer quality pipes vs using good quality expensive pipes? There is no contract saying you must use better quality materials right? What about poor workmanship and warranty period already over?
    4) What else???
    The judge don't think like layman;They don't know what is hardship. They always stay within four walls, and need not walk at the compound of Sail!

  30. #60
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
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    5,837

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    Quote Originally Posted by teddybear View Post
    If it is really due to fireworks, why we don't see The Sail's neighbouring building has so many of their glasses shattering and falling down but only The Sail?

    As to why Manhattan no such problem, it could be more due to better quality of glasses used and better skilled worksmanship?
    I have given this some thoughts..

    in US ..all new apt windows open inward.. and probably 10 deg wide only ..
    at the widest part, an infant head cant go through..thats for safety reasons.

    I live on 31st flr... unblock view from 8th ave to Hudson river.. the wind is super strong.. sometimes.. it takes 2 adults to push the window before we could lock it...


    I think in spore.. windows open outward.. and can open Beyond 90 deg..
    Sail being high rise ... theres a chance windows are left open max .. and on a day with strong wind .... it could open beyond 90 deg... and damaging the window frame and joints..


    as to the surrounding office buildings..no such problems ... they don't have windows and even there are ..they don't open them .. hence less chance of damages

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