View Full Version : 2011 - OCR or CCR ?
Let's have one consolidated thread for this discussion.
Start with sh's wonderful proposal :
Which bring me this proposal:-
Let’s revisit this CCR versus OCR debate in a year’s time. Let’s use URA’s index as gauge. The current index for CCR 3rdQ 2010 is 198, for OCR 3rdQ 2010 is 174.6. Let’s see where the index stands for 4thQ 2011 (so it’s in more than 1 year’s time). Let’s see which region registers the greater percentage increment. (hopefully it’s an increment, otherwise we all cry together)
Personally, I see more upside in the CCR. That’s what I am betting on….
Game?:)
For me, I would say at this level, CCR should hopefully outperform OCR in 2011.
There is money to be made in every sector though. So this is not a bash of any one.
After the spectacular jump in 2009-2010, I think OCR is going to take a back seat now. ;)
I have nothing against OCR, and have owned OCR before. But I clearly see that CCR are undervalued now compared to OCR and that is where I am putting my money in. Common-sense prevails that if places like Carabelle @West Coast can sell at close to $1000 psf, then places like d'Leedon at $1600 psf is definitely undervalued! (Not that I am saying d'Leedon is a good investment in CCR, but it is definitely better than say pay $1000 psf for Carabelle!). d'Leedon area used to be worth even $1000 psf at the lowest price for old resale units while Carabelle area can be gotten at $500 psf when new. So, Carabelle had doubled, d'Leedon area has not. d'Leedon potential upside at current market is probably about $400 psf vs Carabelle $0 psf upside.
For me, I would say at this level, CCR should hopefully outperform OCR in 2011.
There is money to be made in every sector though. So this is not a bash of any one.
After the spectacular jump in 2009-2010, I think OCR is going to take a back seat now. ;)
bargain hunter
14-12-10, 15:08
i feel CCR will outperform OCR if the increment is negative but may not necessarily outperform OCR if the increment is positive. :ashamed1:
I would have to put my vote in CCR for 2011 star performer.
rattydrama
14-12-10, 19:18
for me I will buy CCR for rental investment but only small unit. since developers now are going after RCR, there are still potential in RCR re-sale with strategic location. :spliff:
devilplate
14-12-10, 19:32
any ppty near MRT will be good:D
rattydrama
14-12-10, 19:38
any ppty near MRT will be good:D infact all my investment property are near MRT...within 200m:spliff: big or small, above ground or underground.:D CCR or RCR or OCR not so important to me. all huat x3 together.
Only went for units with underground mrt stations.
Guys, let's put our money where our mouth is - gotta walk the talk.
My 2 cents - CCR undervalued cos supply exceed demand (and more to come)
RCR and OCR - fine balance still.
Happy to revisit this in 6 mths.
If can afford, go for CCR in 2011.
Regulators
14-12-10, 23:04
CCR depends on where lah. Orchard Residence at $4k plus psf, would you say it is undervalued?
Guys, let's put our money where our mouth is - gotta walk the talk.
My 2 cents - CCR undervalued cos supply exceed demand (and more to come)
RCR and OCR - fine balance still.
Happy to revisit this in 6 mths.
rattydrama
15-12-10, 00:38
CCR depends on where lah. Orchard Residence at $4k plus psf, would you say it is undervalued?
on the same note, some may feel that CCR price has been chased up too high in 2007. since new units are small and steep at the current market price, one may feels that it is more worthwhile to buy 2 units in non-prime areas with good size at good price - one for self stay and another for investment purpose.
Since supply outstrip demand, CCR price to adjust 10% upward?:confused:
Regulators
15-12-10, 00:53
i used to be a doomsayer for the OCR and all praises for CCR, but i have changed my perspective since. Some OCR projects can and do offer better quality of life, so being close to office buildings in the CBD does not equate to better quality of life
on the same note, some may feel that CCR price has been chased up too high in 2007. since new units are small and steep at the current market price, one may feels that it is more worthwhile to buy 2 units in non-prime areas with good size at good price - one for self stay and another for investment purpose.
Since supply outstrip demand, CCR price to adjust 10% upward?:confused:
Price is always relative. E.g., newspaper reported that Greenwich @Seletar sold at $1200 psf! I thought I see wrongly, what?, Seletar that so ulu place with all the private jets flying overhead (all the noise and air pollution) worth $1200 psf? If so, should d'Leedon be worth >$2400 psf? Shouldn't L'Viv @Newton be worth $3000 psf? With these relative prices, it is either that OCR Greenwich is seriously overpriced or d'Leedon selling at $1600 psf or L'Viv selling at $2000 psf is seriously underpriced!
Next, we look at supply and demand. Assume demand remain constant for OCR and CCR, with the Govt selling so much OCR land now for building private properties and the Govt holding so much much more empty OCR land that can be used for building private properties (can build another 2-3m units!), supply is definitely much much greater than that constant demand! Next we look at CCR, Govt holding very very little empty CCR land (compared to OCR land), private only holding selected few land from enbloc. This should tell us very much about the serious oversupply of OCR 2-3 years down the road. Now think, how will that affect prices?
on the same note, some may feel that CCR price has been chased up too high in 2007. since new units are small and steep at the current market price, one may feels that it is more worthwhile to buy 2 units in non-prime areas with good size at good price - one for self stay and another for investment purpose.
Since supply outstrip demand, CCR price to adjust 10% upward?:confused:
kingkong1984
15-12-10, 07:36
Alot want to eat chicken rice in hawker centre versus expensive chicken rice in orchard. Still same chicken lah, will turn into same shit after digestion. Expensive shit better?
stalingrad
15-12-10, 07:56
Alot want to eat chicken rice in hawker centre versus expensive chicken rice in orchard. Still same chicken lah, will turn into same shit after digestion. Expensive shit better?
listen to this talk. it sounds simplistic, but captures the trends in ccr and ocr condos. it says, everywhere you look, we see the same stuff, the same chains of stores and supermarkets and such. so, why pay so much so to live "prime" areas, other than to live so close to indons and PRC tycoons, who may or may not be the best of neighbors.
stalingrad
15-12-10, 08:03
i used to be a doomsayer for the OCR and all praises for CCR, but i have changed my perspective since. Some OCR projects can and do offer better quality of life, so being close to office buildings in the CBD does not equate to better quality of life
another kernel of wisdom.
unless one is a speculator, what matters is your quality of life, and whether you can sleep soundly at night or not. why live in D10 while burdened to death by your mortgage payments. life is too short to live like that. if you gamble on prime properties, there are two outcomes, win or lose. if you win, you can't take away your wealth with you when you die. if you lose, you will suffer for the rest of your life. so, why make such bets. be happy with what you have, a nice ocr condo with no debt and a peaceful life. let the reckless type gamble away their lives.
Same chicken, different ease of access, different environment mah. Otherwise Malaysia Johor chicken rice even cheaper, why don't you go eat there everyday? Malaysia terrace house only RM100k (i.e. S$40k! Cheaper than a car in Singapore!). Why don't 95% of people in Singapore who can't afford CCR private properties go live there (can save much much more money than living in OCR or even HDB flats anywhere in Singapore)? :banghead:
In fact, if you own even a 3rm HDB flat in Singapore, you can straight-away sell it and retire in a terrace house in Malaysia Johor! Don't even need to work anymore! Why work so hard and slough for hours just to be able to buy even a HDB "pigeon hole" in Singapore? :doh:
Alot want to eat chicken rice in hawker centre versus expensive chicken rice in orchard. Still same chicken lah, will turn into same shit after digestion. Expensive shit better?
How to sleep soundly at night when the next day you step out of your house you get slash with padang swiping youngsters and gangsters/foreigners (as reported in newspapers in Kallang, Bukit Panjang, Yishun housing estate areas)? :p
another kernel of wisdom.
unless one is a speculator, what matters is your quality of life, and whether you can sleep soundly at night or not. why live in D10 while burdened to death by your mortgage payments. life is too short to live like that. if you gamble on prime properties, there are two outcomes, win or lose. if you win, you can't take away your wealth with you when you die. if you lose, you will suffer for the rest of your life. so, why make such bets. be happy with what you have, a nice ocr condo with no debt and a peaceful life. let the reckless type gamble away their lives.
CCR is rich field game. unless u have enough ammo, or else even if the CCR is REALLY "underprice" as per experts, one should not touch. the risk is high. My friend bought sentosa cove during 2007 thinking the price could shoot higher. but the value drop after bought. it drop as low as 50% in early 2009. i think now it is still not breakeven. so is 2007 CCR peak level really sustainable or it is just being pushed by speculator?? :beats-me-man:
Really? Imagine your next door is full of those "chickens", everyday got free shows going on (including the sound), you have kids watching all these, how will they grow up to be?
Imagine around your estate there are people sniffing glues, doing obscene or disgusting things, wash clothing and bathing in common toilet, you want your kids to learn such values from them? :banghead:
Kids are just kids, they learn from their environment and their friends best! If you are Ok with all the above, it also speaks very much about your character and what you want to impart your kids. :scared-3: If you are not OK why you treat it as though it is OK, no problem? Money more important or bringing up a kid with proper character more important? Or Money is an issue to you? :confused:
listen to this talk. it sounds simplistic, but captures the trends in ccr and ocr condos. it says, everywhere you look, we see the same stuff, the same chains of stores and supermarkets and such. so, why pay so much so to live "prime" areas, other than to live so close to indons and PRC tycoons, who may or may not be the best of neighbors.
Really? Imagine your next door is full of those "chickens", everyday got free shows going on (including the sound), you have kids watching all these, how will they grow up to be?
Imagine around your estate there are people sniffing glues, doing obscene or disgusting things, wash clothing and bathing in common toilet, you want your kids to learn such values from them? :banghead:
Kids are just kids, they learn from their environment and their friends best! If you are Ok with all the above, it also speaks very much about your character and what you want to impart your kids. :scared-3: If you are not OK why you treat it as though it is OK, no problem? Money more important or bringing up a kid with proper character more important? Or Money is an issue to you? :confused:
are u saying that 95% of population will be of poor character becos they don stay in CCR?? if tats the case wouldnt the 5% "high class" people be at risk becos they are surrounded by 95% of glue sniffer, bad character, uncivilised behaviour? :doh:
bargain hunter
15-12-10, 08:52
last sunday, exotic Mcdonald's right beside Ridout GCB Area also got crazy man walk naked. who says only when u stay outside CCR, your kids see obscene things.
No I didn't. Is your brain reading things that people didn't write or you think that way?
I am only saying that in those HDB estates, nowsadays with many foreigner workers, "chickens", gangsters, bad kids/youngsters around, it is becoming a messy and complicated place for young children/kids. What is the chance of you meeting all these people in HDB estates? What is the chance of you meeting all these people in OCR cheap private properties (8 squeeze into a 2 or 3BR units)? Chances are definitely very very much higher than say seeing them living in CCR expensive properties! It is definitely not 100% but very very high. That is what I am trying to say. So, if I have the money, and I want to reduce my kids' exposure to these undesirable things/sights/experience, I buy CCR, the more expensive the better. That also explains why people are willing to buy the more expensive CCR properties that they can afford than to buy cheap OCR properties. (This also answers the question of those calling people are stupid, idiot, brain-dead to buy CCR properties.). However, if I can't afford and I still want to buy a private property, then no choice lah, I buy OCR private property (still better than HDB flats in outlying areas). If last I still can't afford, then no choice lor, buy HDB flats, but I will sure upgrade when I have the money! :cheers1:
are u saying that 95% of population will be of poor character becos they don stay in CCR?? if tats the case wouldnt the 5% "high class" people be at risk becos they are surrounded by 95% of glue sniffer, bad character, uncivilised behaviour? :doh:
That is a GCB area you know? You think the naked crazy man can walk into the GCB? Other than that, Mcdonald is a commercial place, nobody can stop him. Also, that place is Queenstown, not in CCR :D. (Even if CCR also have "real CCR" and "fake CCR" - you should know better by now? The fake ones are the likes of Holland Village, Mt Sinai areas, Upper Bukit Timah areas near the D21, etc. Don't understand why they are already so far from Central town area still labelled as "CCR"?)
See, you live outside CCR you see these crazy people walking around naked!
last sunday, exotic Mcdonald's right beside Ridout GCB Area also got crazy man walk naked. who says only when u stay outside CCR, your kids see obscene things.
CCR depends on where lah. Orchard Residence at $4k plus psf, would you say it is undervalued?
i mean CCR gives the impression of being undervalued when actually if you look at it, there is way too much supply than demand. What does this tell us?
I simply think CCR is way over-rated nowadays...just because it was at a high in 2007 doesn't mean it has to exceed it now.
I think the era of the suburbia has come.
stalingrad
15-12-10, 09:15
No I didn't. Is your brain reading things that people didn't write or you think that way?
I am only saying that in those HDB estates, nowsadays with many foreigner workers, "chickens", gangsters, bad kids/youngsters around, it is becoming a messy and complicated place for young children/kids. What is the chance of you meeting all these people in HDB estates? What is the chance of you meeting all these people in OCR cheap private properties (8 squeeze into a 2 or 3BR units)? Chances are definitely very very much higher than say seeing them living in CCR expensive properties! It is definitely not 100% but very very high. That is what I am trying to say. So, if I have the money, and I want to reduce my kids' exposure to these undesirable things/sights/experience, I buy CCR, the more expensive the better. That also explains why people are willing to buy the more expensive CCR properties that they can afford than to buy cheap OCR properties. (This also answers the question of those calling people are stupid, idiot, brain-dead to buy CCR properties.). However, if I can't afford and I still want to buy a private property, then no choice lah, I buy OCR private property (still better than HDB flats in outlying areas). If last I still can't afford, then no choice lor, buy HDB flats, but I will sure upgrade when I have the money! :cheers1:
hey, Hitler is dictating where we must live. we are talking about OCR condos, and he keeps scaring us with horror stories about HDB. I don't think these horror stories apply to ocr condos. I have never seen any kids sniff glue in my condo, or chopper wielding ones.
stalingrad
15-12-10, 09:17
i mean CCR gives the impression of being undervalued when actually if you look at it, there is way too much supply than demand. What does this tell us?
I simply think CCR is way over-rated nowadays...just because it was at a high in 2007 doesn't mean it has to exceed it now.
I think the era of the suburbia has come.
if you look at casabella and Duchess residences in terms of layout and nearby amenities (or the lack thereof), you would sniff "1800psf for this kind of shit?"
that sums it all about prime properties. Let the indons and PRC buy them. not us.
CCR too much supply? Hei, that is twisting the facts too much! Please drive around and see where are all the empty lands to be found? Please check govt GLS programme and see where are all the lands under the Govt land sales programme to be sold located? All OCR! Conclusion: It is OCR that has too much supply now and in the future! :banghead:
i mean CCR gives the impression of being undervalued when actually if you look at it, there is way too much supply than demand. What does this tell us?
I simply think CCR is way over-rated nowadays...just because it was at a high in 2007 doesn't mean it has to exceed it now.
I think the era of the suburbia has come.
Many of us (not ALL) would aspire to own CCR properties. Even if we live in OCR, but if have $, would want to own a CCR & rent out.
stalingrad
15-12-10, 09:23
CCR too much supply? Hei, that is twisting the facts too much! Please drive around and see where are all the empty lands to be found? Please check govt GLS programme and see where are all the lands under the Govt land sales programme to be sold located? All OCR! Conclusion: It be OCR that has too much supply now and in the future! :banghead:
man, get your IQ examined. why would government want to crash the OCR condo market? they are just saying that if things get out of control, they will increase supply to get the market to calm down. when that happens, all districts will be affected, not just OCR. For example, if prices of OCR condos go down, more people will move out of CCR to OCR. if prices of OCR get too high, people will start moving back to OCR. OCR and CCr are not two countries with closed borders. People can move an out of each area, to adjust to the relative prices of condos in these two areas.
so, if government increases land supply in OCR, CCr prices will also be affected. Get it? if not, go take economics 101. hope you get a passing grade. but you have to try awfully hard to get one, given how dim your light is in the porch.
Then what do you think about Greenwich @Seletar at $1200 psf? The Vision @West Coast at $1300 psf? If Casabella and Duchess Residences at $1800 psf is paying too much for shit, paying $1200-1300 psf for those locations and quality like West Coast and Seletar that is not even worth a shit! :banghead:
Ok mark my words, those buying The Vision @West Coast at S$1300 psf cannot even recover their capital including interests within next 8 years! I am pretty confident of my this prediction! :cheers1:
Another prediction: Those buying Carabelle @West Coast with such poor quality (worse than The Vision) at >$900 psf cannot even recover their capital including interests within next 5 years!
if you look at casabella and Duchess residences in terms of layout and nearby amenities (or the lack thereof), you would sniff "1800psf for this kind of shit?"
that sums it all about prime properties. Let the indons and PRC buy them. not us.
You should understand by now that NOT everything is about price! (or you simply cannot and/or refuse to understand!).
See, Malaysia Johor Bahru so near and landed properties so cheap there, why we didn't see majority of those living in Singapore move there? Why don't you sell your Carabelle and move to JB? You can live a big spacious bungalow in JB and still have more than enough to afford a car and retire comfortably there! Why don't you go there? (and in this process Singapore is rid of a ungrateful parasite who keep cursing and swearing about everything in Singapore!).
man, get your IQ examined. why would government want to crash the OCR condo market? they are just saying that if things get out of control, they will increase supply to get the market to calm down. when that happens, all districts will be affected, not just OCR. For example, if prices of OCR condos go down, more people will move out of CCR to OCR. if prices of OCR get too high, people will start moving back to OCR. OCR and CCr are not two countries with closed borders. People can move an out of each area, to adjust to the relative prices of condos in these two areas.
so, if government increases land supply in OCR, CCr prices will also be affected. Get it? if not, go take economics 101. hope you get a passing grade. but you have to try awfully hard to get one, given how dim your light is in the porch.
stalingrad
15-12-10, 09:29
Then what do you think about Greenwich @Seletar at $1200 psf? The Vision @West Coast at $1300 psf? If Casabella and Duchess Residences at $1800 psf is paying too much for shit, paying $1200-1300 psf for those locations and quality like West Coast and Seletar that is not even worth a shit! :banghead:
Ok mark my words, those buying The Vision @West Coast at S$1300 psf cannot even recover their capital including interests within next 8 years! I am pretty confident of my this prediction! :cheers1:
Another prediction: Those buying Carabelle @West Coast with such poor quality (worse than The Vision) at >$900 psf cannot even recover their capital including interests within next 5 years!
what poor quality? don't just shoot the bull any way you like.
carabelle has 3.3 m ceiling height. is that poor quality? it has a huge open space for kids to roam and play, versus casabella and DR, where there is no place for kids to go, except to fall into the pool in the middle and drown.
Please don't shoot off your mouth and lose all credibility. think before you talk, you mother taught you when you were young. listen to her.
stalingrad
15-12-10, 09:32
You should understand by now that NOT everything is about price! (or you simply cannot and/or refuse to understand!).
See, Malaysia Johor Bahru so near and landed properties so cheap there, why we didn't see majority of those living in Singapore move there? Why don't you sell your Carabelle and move to JB? You can live a big spacious bungalow in JB and still have more than enough to afford a car and retire comfortably there! Why don't you go there? (and in this process Singapore is rid of a ungrateful parasite who keep cursing and swearing about everything in Singapore!).]
I would move to JB if I could. Many malaysians working in Singapore are doing exactly what you said we should.
besides, I did not say that price is the only issue. but do you understand the concept of "ceretis paribus"? Ceretis paribus, if prices get too high, people will move no matter how attractive real estate in one area is.
devilplate
15-12-10, 09:32
Many of us (not ALL) would aspire to own CCR properties. Even if we live in OCR, but if have $, would want to own a CCR & rent out.
quite true though...hehe
the address/prestige still got some weightage....i own a ppty in orchard wor...its like i own porsche....lol
i wud love to own a ppty in nassim area...$ not enuff leh:ashamed1:
nassim best or ardmore park best?
for landed...i bio OCR landed now....but if i got it...mabe i will aspire to get a GCB....lol
stalingrad
15-12-10, 09:36
quite true though...hehe
the address/prestige still got some weightage....i own a ppty in orchard wor...its like i own porsche....lol
i wud love to own a ppty in nassim area...$ not enuff leh:ashamed1:
nassim best or ardmore park best?
for landed...i bio OCR landed now....but if i got it...mabe i will aspire to get a GCB....lol
one or two of you sentimental type doesn't a market make. rationality is what determines prices at the margin.
I visited and stayed in one of those GCB. what is my verdict. yuck!!! I still have the scars from the mosquito bites to prove it. My kids wouldn't even go to the toilet, which is mouldy for lack of sunlight. they kept saying that there is ghosts in every dark corner of the house.
bargain hunter
15-12-10, 09:39
GCB Area, its the same. you can't go into a GCB but u can walk freely into a GCB Area, just like HDB, you can't walk into an individual flat, but you can walk at the void deck. :D wah lao, you dare to call Ridout and Swettenham as fake CCR?!?!?! do u know where is that location at all?
That is a GCB area you know? You think the naked crazy man can walk into the GCB? Other than that, Mcdonald is a commercial place, nobody can stop him. Also, that place is Queenstown, not in CCR :D. (Even if CCR also have "real CCR" and "fake CCR" - you should know better by now? The fake ones are the likes of Holland Village, Mt Sinai areas, Upper Bukit Timah areas near the D21, etc. Don't understand why they are already so far from Central town area still labelled as "CCR"?)
See, you live outside CCR you see these crazy people walking around naked!
What quality you are talking about with 3.3m ceiling height? That is the norm for most private properties in CCR! You are really very ignorant indeed!
Talk of assessing QUALITY, Please check the following:
1. Your Carabelle come with TOTO WCs and lavatory counter-tops or equivalent quality sanitary wares?
2. Your Carabelle come with Hansgrohe taps, showers, or equivalent quality brands?
3. Your Carabelle come with marble floors in living, dinning rooms that are at least dry-laid or cut from complete slab (not formed from those rojak discarded/unwanted pieces)? (Don't even tell me about homogenous tiles!)
4. Your Carabelle come with quality marble floors in living, dinning rooms that are at least dry-laid or cut from complete slab (not those those rojak discarded/unwanted pieces)?
5. Your Carabelle come with quality marble/granite floors for kitchen and bathrooms?
6. Your Carabelle come with Miele/Gagganeu fridge, washer cum dryer, hood, hob, oven?
If your answer is YES to ALL the above, then I will agree with you that your Carabelle indeed has "QUALITY". Otherwise, they are just very "UN-QUALITY" compared to those CCR condos! :doh:
what poor quality? don't just shoot the bull any way you like.
carabelle has 3.3 m ceiling height. is that poor quality? it has a huge open space for kids to roam and play, versus casabella and DR, where there is no place for kids to go, except to fall into the pool in the middle and drown.
Please don't shoot off your mouth and lose all credibility. think before you talk, you mother taught you when you were young. listen to her.
devilplate
15-12-10, 09:40
one or two of you sentimental type doesn't a market make. rationality is what determines prices at the margin.
I visited and stayed in one of those GCB. what is my verdict. yuck!!! I still have the scars for the mosquito bites to prove it. My kids wouldn't even go to the toilet, which is mouldy for lack of sunlight. they kept saying that there is ghosts in every dark corner of the house.
ic...ya quite true....i will not want to stay in a GCB....too big liao...lol....but mabe build a smaller house but with full facilities on ur land....sounds cool:D
stalingrad
15-12-10, 09:42
Yes, my carabelle has marble flooring. each piece cut from a whole slab. btw, d'leedon has homogeneous flooring throughout each unit. there is no even one granule of marble, not even one broken piece. go check it out at the showflat.
I hope this shuts him up.
devilplate
15-12-10, 09:43
What quality you are talking about with 3.3m ceiling height? That is the norm for most private properties in CCR! You are really very ignorant indeed!
Talk of assessing QUALITY, Please check the following:
1. Your Carabelle come with TOTO WCs and lavatory counter-tops or equivalent quality sanitary wares?
2. Your Carabelle come with Hansgrohe taps, showers, or equivalent quality brands?
3. Your Carabelle come with marble floors in living, dinning rooms that are at least dry-laid or cut from complete slab (not formed from those rojak discarded/unwanted pieces)? (Don't even tell me about homogenous tiles!)
4. Your Carabelle come with quality marble floors in living, dinning rooms that are at least dry-laid or cut from complete slab (not those those rojak discarded/unwanted pieces)?
5. Your Carabelle come with quality marble/granite floors for kitchen and bathrooms?
6. Your Carabelle come with Miele/Gagganeu fridge, washer cum dryer, hood, hob, oven?
If your answer is YES to ALL the above, then I will agree with you that your Carabelle indeed has "QUALITY". Otherwise, they are just very "UN-QUALITY" compared to those CCR condos! :doh:
so branded conscious meh....hehe
Sorry, I am just too used to it. Yes, that is the fake CCR, too close to those HDB estates in Queenstown. I sort of suspect that those GCBs there don't command as much as those in real CCR areas. May be you can prove me wrong? (Good chance you can prove me wrong in this case as I am just shooting with gut instinct without checking facts first). :D
GCB Area, its the same. you can't go into a GCB but u can walk freely into a GCB Area, just like HDB, you can't walk into an individual flat, but you can walk at the void deck. :D wah lao, you dare to call Ridout and Swettenham as fake CCR?!?!?! do u know where is that location at all?
stalingrad
15-12-10, 09:45
so branded conscious meh....hehe
I begin to suspect that hitler's soul landed in singapore and turned into a real person.
How can a man, versus a woman, be so shallow and materialistc?
Yah lor, price in OCR Singapore and JB is already almost 30x different even for a terrace house! So huge huge difference! Why don't you move to JB since that is such a BIG HUGE "ceretis paribus" !!! :tongue3:
]
I would move to JB if I could. Many malaysians working in Singapore are doing exactly what you said we should.
besides, I did not say that price is the only issue. but do you understand the concept of "ceretis paribus"? Ceretis paribus, if prices get too high, people will move no matter how attractive real estate in one area is.
stalingrad
15-12-10, 09:50
Yah lor, price in OCR Singapore and JB is already almost 30x different even for a terrace house! So huge huge difference! Why don't you move to JB since that is such a BIG HUGE "ceretis paribus" !!! :tongue3:
I really doubt you know what ceteris paribus is. I don't blame you, given the level of education you obvious has had.
stalingrad
15-12-10, 09:56
ic...ya quite true....i will not want to stay in a GCB....too big liao...lol....but mabe build a smaller house but with full facilities on ur land....sounds cool:D
there is even a well in the yard of the GCB. my wife couldn't sleep at night. She kept imagining a ghost climbing out of the well to attack her. She saw too many Japanese ghost movies, one of which showed a girl ghost climbing out of a well to attack a family watching TV.
I've observed the recent postings in this forum and i notice a drop in quality of discussion. I believe i can point out the source now. Let me summarize.
1. Stalingrad ignores all points and facts that does not support his views
2. Stalingrad is unnecessarily aggressive and insults others while accusing others of being the aggressive one
3. Stalingrad is obsessed with comparing his carabelle and d'leedon when the discussion is about OCR and ccr in general.
4. Stalingrad is detracting from the quality of the discussion instead of adding to it.
5. His views are narrow and only focus on his or his family's preferences and assuming that most people are like him.
I really doubt you know what ceteris paribus is. I don't blame you, given the level of education you obvious has had.
i used to be a doomsayer for the OCR and all praises for CCR, but i have changed my perspective since. Some OCR projects can and do offer better quality of life, so being close to office buildings in the CBD does not equate to better quality of life
to me OCR more for own stay, CCR more for investment ~
Marble floor only? Your marble floor cut from whole complete slab and laid on your floor preserving the natural patterns? Wow! I am impressed! But I can straight away tell you that you are simply LYING! :tongue3: You expect Sim Lian or any developers to use marble flooring that are cut from whole slab and lay on your floor and yet sell you at $500 psf? Do you know how much that will costs? So far, I have seen only private properties that developers sell for >$2000 psf that could possibly have whole slab marble flooring (many don't even have whole slab marble flooring!).
Ok, other than above, why don't you enlighten us on the "QUALITY" of your Carabelle by answering what you have for all the other 6 items I listed below? Marble flooring in where also?
Yes, my carabelle has marble flooring. each piece cut from a whole slab. btw, d'leedon has homogeneous flooring throughout each unit. there is no even one granule of marble, not even one broken piece. go check it out at the showflat.
I hope this shuts him up.
What quality you are talking about with 3.3m ceiling height? That is the norm for most private properties in CCR! You are really very ignorant indeed!
Talk of assessing QUALITY, Please check the following:
1. Your Carabelle come with TOTO WCs and lavatory counter-tops or equivalent quality sanitary wares?
2. Your Carabelle come with Hansgrohe taps, showers, or equivalent quality brands?
3. Your Carabelle come with marble floors in living, dinning rooms that are at least dry-laid or cut from complete slab (not formed from those rojak discarded/unwanted pieces)? (Don't even tell me about homogenous tiles!)
4. Your Carabelle come with quality marble floors in living, dinning rooms that are at least dry-laid or cut from complete slab (not those those rojak discarded/unwanted pieces)?
5. Your Carabelle come with quality marble/granite floors for kitchen and bathrooms?
6. Your Carabelle come with Miele/Gagganeu fridge, washer cum dryer, hood, hob, oven?
If your answer is YES to ALL the above, then I will agree with you that your Carabelle indeed has "QUALITY". Otherwise, they are just very "UN-QUALITY" compared to those CCR condos! :doh:
stalingrad
15-12-10, 10:01
I've observed the recent postings in this forum and i notice a drop in quality of discussion. I believe i can point out the source now. Let me summarize.
1. Stalingrad ignores all points and facts that does not support his views
2. Stalingrad is unnecessarily aggressive and insults others while accusing others of being the aggressive one
3. Stalingrad is obsessed with comparing his carabelle and d'leedon when the discussion is about OCR and ccr in general.
4. Stalingrad is detracting from the quality of the discussion instead of adding to it.
5. His views are narrow and only focus on his or his family's preferences and assuming that most people are like him.
haha, surely you are joking. please scroll up and see when my condo was brought out in each instance. teddybear kept bringing up my condo as an example. I was the exact opposite of how you said I was.
devilplate
15-12-10, 10:02
not all CCR ppty is undervalued and not all OCR is overvalued....there r still gems lying around:2cents:
devilplate
15-12-10, 10:03
Marble floor only? Your marble floor cut from whole complete slab and laid on your floor preserving the natural patterns? Wow! I am impressed! But I can straight away tell you that you are simply LYING! :tongue3: You expect Sim Lian or any developers to use marble flooring that are cut from whole slab and lay on your floor and yet sell you at $500 psf? Do you know how much that will costs? So far, I have seen only private properties that developers sell for >$2000 psf that could possibly have whole slab marble flooring (many don't even have whole slab marble flooring!).
Ok, other than above, why don't you enlighten us on the "QUALITY" of your Carabelle by answering what you have for all the other 6 items I listed below? Marble flooring in where also?
hey...haf u been to lucida showflat...the marble floor meets ur standard anot ar....i was so impressed wor...but nvr buy due to silly balcony(metallic opaque)
orchard scotts marble also very impressive
now feeling abit sore ....last yr only 12xxpsf:ashamed1:
stalingrad
15-12-10, 10:05
Marble floor only? Your marble floor cut from whole complete slab and laid on your floor preserving the natural patterns? Wow! I am impressed! But I can straight away tell you that you are simply LYING! :tongue3: You expect Sim Lian or any developers to use marble flooring that are cut from whole slab and lay on your floor and yet sell you at $500 psf? Do you know how much that will costs? So far, I have seen only private properties that developers sell for >$2000 psf that could possibly have whole slab marble flooring (many don't even have whole slab marble flooring!).
Ok, other than above, why don't you enlighten us on the "QUALITY" of your Carabelle by answering what you have for all the other 6 items I listed below? Marble flooring in where also?
I did not lie when I said that each marble piece in my condo is cut from a whole slab. did I say that the laying preserved the natural pattern?
d'leedon did not even have marble. at least my condo is better than d'leedon.
by the way, please stick to the subject we are discussing, and leave my condo alone.
devilplate
15-12-10, 10:06
to me OCR more for own stay, CCR more for investment ~
same sentiment....i wud not want to stay within CBD....:D
bargain hunter
15-12-10, 10:07
googled and saw this from 4 Sep 2009,
"BreadTalk founder and chairman George Quek is reported to have sold his 2 Swettenham Road bungalow for $29.2 million to developer Simon Cheong."
that was a record in $ quantum for D10 at that time. In Jan 2010, 4 Swettenham Road set a new record at $31.5m. No GCB of its size was transacted in the area since and only 6 houses have surpassed it from Apr to Oct this year.
Sorry, I am just too used to it. Yes, that is the fake CCR, too close to those HDB estates in Queenstown. I sort of suspect that those GCBs there don't command as much as those in real CCR areas. May be you can prove me wrong? (Good chance you can prove me wrong in this case as I am just shooting with gut instinct without checking facts first). :D
devilplate
15-12-10, 10:08
googled and saw this from 4 Sep 2009,
"BreadTalk founder and chairman George Quek is reported to have sold his 2 Swettenham Road bungalow for $29.2 million to developer Simon Cheong."
that was a record in $ quantum for D10 at that time. In Jan 2010, 4 Swettenham Road set a new record at $31.5m. No GCB of its size was transacted in the area since and only 6 houses have surpassed it from Apr to Oct this year.
this area certainly looks prime to me.....nvr even drive into tat area b4!:o
Lucida? Never seen that. But be careful hor, developers use quality marbles in showflat but use other marbles in actual units!
I had even seen developers use very nice and beautiful marbles in show flats but the actual units come with homogeneous tiles! Ops! Please read the fine print! It is written there in small small words!!! :banghead:
hey...haf u been to lucida showflat...the marble floor meets ur standard anot ar....i was so impressed wor...but nvr buy due to silly balcony(metallic opaque)
orchard scotts marble also very impressive
now feeling abit sore ....last yr only 12xxpsf:ashamed1:
Shouldn't we be talking about $PSF instead of $ quantum when we say "expensive" or "cheap"? :D
(Otherwise MM units costing $800k (of 400 sqft at $2000 psf) is "cheaper in quantum" than the OCR condo at $1.3m (of 1300 sqft) !). :cheers1:
So what is the real $PSF there?
I understand that some bungalows (not even GCBs status) in Trevose area already transacted at $1800 psf of land! That is still the "real CCR"! :D
googled and saw this from 4 Sep 2009,
"BreadTalk founder and chairman George Quek is reported to have sold his 2 Swettenham Road bungalow for $29.2 million to developer Simon Cheong."
that was a record in $ quantum for D10 at that time. In Jan 2010, 4 Swettenham Road set a new record at $31.5m. No GCB of its size was transacted in the area since and only 6 houses have surpassed it from Apr to Oct this year.
Regulators
15-12-10, 10:13
the speculation game will continue to play when immigration figures continue to rise and foreigners continue to support the mkt, and we are also now witnessing prices of CCR, RCR and OCR moving upwards in tandem with the growing economy which means that private property prices have shifted to a new paradigm. $1k psf for Jurong was unheard of a short 5 years back and look at lakefront prices now. i think for the average income man on the street, an OCR spacious condo is more than sufficient, but society has to cater to the rich who want to live in places only befitting of their status. One can argue till the cows come home that living in an $900k 3 bedder in Clementi is no different from a $5 million 3 bedder in Orchard, but frankly, to the rich, that $5 million is just pocket change to them so they won't mind paying that just to live among the elites. The class divide and differential in prices is inevitable. The only reason why OCR has caught up to such a large extent is due to rich foreign buyers who had seen the possiblity of narrowing that gap between prime and suburban and they were somehow right. The other factor is of course FEO, I used to think hillvista at $1k plus psf was absurd but in today's terms, they were right to price it as such
another kernel of wisdom.
unless one is a speculator, what matters is your quality of life, and whether you can sleep soundly at night or not. why live in D10 while burdened to death by your mortgage payments. life is too short to live like that. if you gamble on prime properties, there are two outcomes, win or lose. if you win, you can't take away your wealth with you when you die. if you lose, you will suffer for the rest of your life. so, why make such bets. be happy with what you have, a nice ocr condo with no debt and a peaceful life. let the reckless type gamble away their lives.
bargain hunter
15-12-10, 10:14
i think so too, for GCB Area. Not sure why teddy die die must insist newton is the centre of the universe. :D
this area certainly looks prime to me.....nvr even drive into tat area b4!:o
bargain hunter
15-12-10, 10:19
i didn't compare psf simply becoz for landed, there are many attributes to consider. the simplest of which is the condition of the house. 2 and 4 Swettenham are both old houses while the one at nassim which set a record psf is completely rebuilt and new and sits on a smaller plot of land.
Shouldn't we be talking about $PSF instead of $ quantum when we say "expensive" or "cheap"? :D
(Otherwise MM units costing $800k (of 400 sqft at $2000 psf) is "cheaper in quantum" than the OCR condo at $1.3m (of 1300 sqft) !). :cheers1:
So what is the real $PSF there?
I understand that some bungalows (not even GCBs status) in Trevose area already transacted at $1800 psf of land! That is still the "real CCR"! :D
Regulators
15-12-10, 10:32
the rental for newton not as good as novena but prices similar. Those living in One Newton or L'Viv only has Newton Hawker centre really within short walking distance, but those living in novena area have the big malls to contend with. I personally prefer newton coz it is not too close to TTKH and CDC for comfort.
i think so too, for GCB Area. Not sure why teddy die die must insist newton is the centre of the universe. :D
But unfortunately we can only rely on $psf and age of building, whether GCB designated or not etc. This is the same for condos, otherwise there is no way to compare, even though we know very well that the facilities in the estate, the quality of landscaping, quality of materials used both inside the units and in the common areas, how well the estate has been maintained, how cramp or spacious the estate are due to design factors etc played a big factor other than location.
i didn't compare psf simply becoz for landed, there are many attributes to consider. the simplest of which is the condition of the house. 2 and 4 Swettenham are both old houses while the one at nassim which set a record psf is completely rebuilt and new and sits on a smaller plot of land.
Did I? You probably got me wrong. I think Orchard MRT station and Orchard ION is currently the centre of Singapore (not Newton)! :p
Even the removal of a pedestrian crossing outside Orchard ION can become such a big hoo-ha and appearing on Newspapers front page! :cheers1:
i think so too, for GCB Area. Not sure why teddy die die must insist newton is the centre of the universe. :D
You know why OCR new launch can sell at >$1200 psf? Who are buying? You think the middle-income Singaporeans affordability have increased so much for the past 5 years that from their comfortable price range of about $600 psf about 5-10 years ago has increased to $1300 psf now? Why only new launch can sell at >$1200 psf? Why older resale condo units cannot even be transacted at $1200 psf?
I have heard of many whispers from insiders and have reason to believe that these are due to speculators! When everything quiets down within next few years, let's see whether those flippers can flip these OCR condos at >$1200 psf!
the speculation game will continue to play when immigration figures continue to rise and foreigners continue to support the mkt, and we are also now witnessing prices of CCR, RCR and OCR moving upwards in tandem with the growing economy which means that private property prices have shifted to a new paradigm. $1k psf for Jurong was unheard of a short 5 years back and look at lakefront prices now. i think for the average income man on the street, an OCR spacious condo is more than sufficient, but society has to cater to the rich who want to live in places only befitting of their status. One can argue till the cows come home that living in an $900k 3 bedder in Clementi is no different from a $5 million 3 bedder in Orchard, but frankly, to the rich, that $5 million is just pocket change to them so they won't mind paying that just to live among the elites. The class divide and differential in prices is inevitable. The only reason why OCR has caught up to such a large extent is due to rich foreign buyers who had seen the possiblity of narrowing that gap between prime and suburban and they were somehow right. The other factor is of course FEO, I used to think hillvista at $1k plus psf was absurd but in today's terms, they were right to price it as such
Can Stalingrad and Teddybear answer the following questions?
Brands that you use
1) What watch you wear
2) What shoes you wear
3) What shirt you wear
4) what car you drive
Afterall, it is the clothes that make a man.
For example, if Stalingrad wears a AP limited edition watch but stays in Carabelle. It shows that he appreciates the finer things in life, but unfortunately has no money to stay in CCR, hence Carabelle.
If however, Stalingrad wears a $100 Casio, it shows that he appreciates value and he truly believes that CCR has no value.
Afterall, a $100 Casio watch tells the time more accurately than an AP watch. A Casio watch has more functions too.
On the other hand, if Teddybear wears an AP limited edition, drives a Bentley and stays in CCR, good for him, he is rich.
If however, Teddybear wears a Casio, stay in OCR, and yet he promotes heavily CCR, he is a true believer in CCR.
of course there are other combinations, but lets hear from those two first :)
I like the fact that people here are opinionated. That's good and makes the forum lively, unlike the other forum at Skyscrapercity where the forummers are all gentlemen and dying a slow death.
In fact, Stalingrad is a ""typical" Westerner in the sense that he is brash, will come to blows (and obscenities) to support his argument, but after work, can be friends after a round of drinks.
Unlike the Chinese where disagreements at work are considered as personal attacks. No more friends after work.
You know why OCR new launch can sell at >$1200 psf? Who are buying? You think the middle-income Singaporeans affordability have increased so much for the past 5 years that from their comfortable price range of about $600 psf about 5-10 years ago has increased to $1300 psf now? Why only new launch can sell at >$1200 psf? Why older resale condo units cannot even be transacted at $1200 psf?
I have heard of many whispers from insiders and have reason to believe that these are due to speculators! When everything quiets down within next few years, let's see whether those flippers can flip these OCR condos at >$1200 psf!
I am as confused as you. However, media reports that >80% buyers of new launches are Singaporeans. Singaporeans can be speculators too I would say. So wait for interest rates to rise to see whether they have staying power.
For the old birds, when mortgages rates were 10%, what was the gross rental yield like?
stalingrad
15-12-10, 11:14
Can Stalingrad and Teddybear answer the following questions?
Brands that you use
1) What watch you wear
2) What shoes you wear
3) What shirt you wear
4) what car you drive
Afterall, it is the clothes that make a man.
For example, if Stalingrad wears a AP limited edition watch but stays in Carabelle. It shows that he appreciates the finer things in life, but unfortunately has no money to stay in CCR, hence Carabelle.
If however, Stalingrad wears a $100 Casio, it shows that he appreciates value and he truly believes that CCR has no value.
Afterall, a $100 Casio watch tells the time more accurately than an AP watch. A Casio watch has more functions too.
On the other hand, if Teddybear wears an AP limited edition, drives a Bentley and stays in CCR, good for him, he is rich.
If however, Teddybear wears a Casio, stay in OCR, and yet he promotes heavily CCR, he is a true believer in CCR.
of course there are other combinations, but lets hear from those two first :)
I like the fact that people here are opinionated. That's good and makes the forum lively, unlike the other forum at Skyscrapercity where the forummers are all gentlemen and dying a slow death.
In fact, Stalingrad is a ""typical" Westerner in the sense that he is brash, will come to blows (and obscenities) to support his argument, but after work, can be friends after a round of drinks.
Unlike the Chinese where disagreements at work are considered as personal attacks. No more friends after work.
haha, I wear a seiko, and my shirt is 10 years old. I eat an apple for lunch on the days that I eat lunch. I normally run in the gym at noon. so no lunch for me.
Why? You so curious? Ha ha ha! There are branded things that are worth it and things that are not worth it. I am particular about quality of things that are built to last and some brands are known to last without rusting (albeit more expensive by 3-5x) than others and I am very familiar with these items for used in property as once these fixture are in there, it costs a lot to remove them and reinstall again, not to mention you have to move out for a month or 2! Hence I am very particular about these fixtures, like floorings, sanitary wares, taps and showers etc.
For clothing and shoes, I don't even keep track of what brand I wear. For bags, same. I just touch them, wear them, and if feel good I buy. What LV? What Gucci? Waste of money. Such things don't need to last since can easily throw and replace (not like fixtures in property you live in). For watches, I like Casio, really cheap and good (from experience)! Talk of cars, safety, realiability, and fuel consumption is a concern, just buy reliable and crash-tested safe cars that is fuel efficient will do, don't need BMWs or Mercedes but definitely not the like of QQs or KIA or Hyundai! Toyota, Nissan or Honda is usually a safe bet for me.
Can Stalingrad and Teddybear answer the following questions?
Brands that you use
1) What watch you wear
2) What shoes you wear
3) What shirt you wear
4) what car you drive
Afterall, it is the clothes that make a man.
For example, if Stalingrad wears a AP limited edition watch but stays in Carabelle. It shows that he appreciates the finer things in life, but unfortunately has no money to stay in CCR, hence Carabelle.
If however, Stalingrad wears a $100 Casio, it shows that he appreciates value and he truly believes that CCR has no value.
Afterall, a $100 Casio watch tells the time more accurately than an AP watch. A Casio watch has more functions too.
On the other hand, if Teddybear wears an AP limited edition, drives a Bentley and stays in CCR, good for him, he is rich.
If however, Teddybear wears a Casio, stay in OCR, and yet he promotes heavily CCR, he is a true believer in CCR.
of course there are other combinations, but lets hear from those two first :)
I like the fact that people here are opinionated. That's good and makes the forum lively, unlike the other forum at Skyscrapercity where the forummers are all gentlemen and dying a slow death.
In fact, Stalingrad is a ""typical" Westerner in the sense that he is brash, will come to blows (and obscenities) to support his argument, but after work, can be friends after a round of drinks.
Unlike the Chinese where disagreements at work are considered as personal attacks. No more friends after work.
devilplate
15-12-10, 11:36
I am as confused as you. However, media reports that >80% buyers of new launches are Singaporeans. Singaporeans can be speculators too I would say. So wait for interest rates to rise to see whether they have staying power.
For the old birds, when mortgages rates were 10%, what was the gross rental yield like?
if mortgage rates 10%, inflation probably 15%!:scared-1:
stalingrad
15-12-10, 11:44
I think teddy and I are basically the same type. I don't appreciate "finer" things in life. Neither does he. I smirk when reading that many people are willing to shell out 1.5 million to buy a lambo. Teddy probably would too. So, it is really strange why he is so enamored with branded fixtures in properties, and why he is so adamant that prime properties are better from a value-for-your-money viewpoint.
devilplate
15-12-10, 11:47
I think teddy and I are basically the same type. I don't appreciate "finer" things in life. Neither does he. I smirk when read that people shell out 1.5 million to buy a lambo. Teddy probably would too. So, it is really strange why he is so enamored with branded fixtures in properties, and why he is so adamant that prime properties are better from a value-for-your-money viewpoint.
hard to say....
when i was a student with less den $10 in my pocket....i find those ppl who spent 200k on BMs, Benz very very silly....
if i got 100mil+++, anytime spend 2mil on car man....$$ intrinsic value of zero until u spend it:D
Don't need to be confused. Singaporeans also can speculate right? Also, "Singaporeans" can sometimes refer to Citizens + PRs in the media. PRs, mmm, so easy to get! (So cheap-skate in Singapore! Those without housing subsidies from companies sure take up because give them so much more benefits vs "foreigner" status! ) :cheers1:
I am as confused as you. However, media reports that >80% buyers of new launches are Singaporeans. Singaporeans can be speculators too I would say. So wait for interest rates to rise to see whether they have staying power.
For the old birds, when mortgages rates were 10%, what was the gross rental yield like?
stalingrad
15-12-10, 11:49
hard to say....
when i was a student with less den $10 in my pocket....i find those ppl who spent 200k on BMs, Benz very very silly....
if i got 100mil+++, anytime spend 2mil on car man....$$ intrinsic value of zero until u spend it:D
Do you know Warren Buffet wear $10 ties?
devilplate
15-12-10, 11:56
Do you know Warren Buffet wear $10 ties?
so???????:p :D
stalingrad
15-12-10, 11:58
so???????:p :D
just because you have money doesn't make you a spendthrift.
by the same token, just because you have money doesn't make living in "prime" condos more appealing. I am telling you the truth. I actually brought my checkbook with me when I went to see that prime condo across the road from botanic garden. that one with the pretentious name. I did not because I don't see any point buying it.
No, no lambo for me. I rather buy a Merc S-350 for their safety features and reliability. The same for properties. Quality fixtures will not spoilt and malfunction easily, will not rust, will stay in same condition just like new 10 years down the road. that is why they are worth it in properties. Are you going to move out and in just to fix all these things every 2-3 years? I sure won't, and I don't want to be getting people to fix all these things every 1-2 years because of rusting, malfunction etc. I hate dealing with all these handyman/plumbers, many always trying to chop you with additional unnecessary things (not spoilt say spoilt, didn't change say change and charge more $$$)! Been there before and no thankyou! Have you heard of stainless steel tap and pipe rusting? Wow! I just can't believe it until I see that in my friends' place! They use just those cheap unbranded stainless steel taps and they are all rusting after 1 year! Even after 3 months, water spots are everywhere! So ugly and unsightly! You saw those copper pipes bursting after 2-3 years? Have you seen those cheap marbles having stains, patches, holes everywhere after 3-5 years of age?
Obviously prime properties are not all about prestige, but about the convenient and central location and easy access to everywhere and all important facilities, amenities, places in Singapore. You think I will buy a diamond studded homes in Woodlands just because they make it so luxury? (luxury as in surface but not in their quality as in built to last etc).
I think teddy and I are basically the same type. I don't appreciate "finer" things in life. Neither does he. I smirk when reading that many people are willing to shell out 1.5 million to buy a lambo. Teddy probably would too. So, it is really strange why he is so enamored with branded fixtures in properties, and why he is so adamant that prime properties are better from a value-for-your-money viewpoint.
stalingrad
15-12-10, 12:03
just one more time. what can you get access to from your cCR condo that we in a OCR condo cannot?
Now that Stalingrad and Teddybear has both answered. both wear the common man's watches, Casio and Seiko.
Stalingrad is right. Both of them has much more in common than previously thought :)
But from my experience, the quality of fixtures and fittings are important, especially plumbing.
I guess the solution for Teddybear is to buy an OCR, rip out all the plumbing and install quality plumbing. Waterproof the ceiling in case the neighbours above leak below. Install marble flooring.
What would be the cost of the total makeover for a 1400sf condo? $200k? That would be about 143psf.
By the way, no wonder Stalingrad and Teddybear are loggerheads. Stalingrad = USSR, Teddybear (Theodore Roosevelt) = USA.
Seiko (Stalingrad) and Casio (Teddybear) are rivals.
By the way, has anyone seen the Property Price Index Chart for CCR, RCR, OCR?
If you have seen them, PPI for CCR and OCR are kind of superimposed. It is only recently, 2005 onwards that CCR diverge greatly and converged again during the recession.
There is still a gap right now but narrowing.
My prediction in 2011? they will converge. I believe the period 2006-2008 is an anomaly.
1) CCR stagnant and OCR will rise.
2) CCR fall down and OCR stagnant.
I am vested in a few CCR properties. None in OCR
Why do I buy CCR? The rich are more likely to buy CCR, more potential for capital appreciation. (that's why the recovery in 2009 in kinda of disappointing for me.)
Furthermore, I want to avoid being considered a trader, where I will be charged for capital gains.
So buy more expensive and fewer units rather than cheaper and more units.
I want to ride the up cycle, but not the down cycle, so my holding period is 4-5 year only. Rental yields are not that important. Most money is made when you sell and not when you rent.
That of course beggars the question, why does the rich like CCR?
As to difference in access CCR vs OCR, I don't know, I don't stay in Singapore.
Depends on the quality and extensiveness. Should be easily $200 psf to be of reasonable standard (and not even luxury standard).
But living in OCR, everyday have to be trapped in traffic jam from OCR areas to city if driving, drive to everywhere also so FAR! Also, your child can't get into any famous school because outside 1km, + getting to any of these good & famous enrichment/tuition schools are just too far!
I like walking to Orchard ION and even Botanic Garden! Just feels so special to be able to do so and at a leisure pace. What car park problem in Orchard shopping belt? What traffic jam in Orchard? I don't feel any. Life is so carefree to be able to reach the longest stretch of shopping district in Singapore and our >100 years old scenic and leisurely Botanic Garden by just walking! :cheers1: People just can't appreciate it when they have not experience that. EXPERIENCE is just a so IMPORTANT word! :D
Now that Stalingrad and Teddybear has both answered. both wear the common man's watches, Casio and Seiko.
Stalingrad is right. Both of them has much more in common than previously thought :)
But from my experience, the quality of fixtures and fittings are important, especially plumbing.
I guess the solution for Teddybear is to buy an OCR, rip out all the plumbing and install quality plumbing. Waterproof the ceiling in case the neighbours above leak below. Install marble flooring.
What would be the cost of the total makeover for a 1400sf condo? $200k? That would be about 143psf.
By the way, no wonder Stalingrad and Teddybear are loggerheads. Stalingrad = USSR, Teddybear (Theodore Roosevelt) = USA.
Seiko (Stalingrad) and Casio (Teddybear) are rivals.
By the way, has anyone seen the Property Price Index Chart for CCR, RCR, OCR?
If you have seen them, PPI for CCR and OCR are kind of superimposed. It is only recently, 2005 onwards that CCR diverge greatly and converged again during the recession.
There is still a gap right now but narrowing.
My prediction in 2011? they will converge. I believe the period 2006-2008 is an anomaly.
1) CCR stagnant and OCR will rise.
2) CCR fall down and OCR stagnant.
I am vested in a few CCR properties. None in OCR
Why do I buy CCR? The rich are more likely to buy CCR, more potential for capital appreciation. (that's why the recovery in 2009 in kinda of disappointing for me.)
Furthermore, I want to avoid being considered a trader, where I will be charged for capital gains.
So buy more expensive and fewer units rather than cheaper and more units.
I want to ride the up cycle, but not the down cycle, so my holding period is 4-5 year only. Rental yields are not that important. Most money is made when you sell and not when you rent.
That of course beggars the question, why does the rich like CCR?
As to difference in access CCR vs OCR, I don't know, I don't stay in Singapore.
I already answered your question in another post (see below). Please EXPERIENCE it for a year before you comment again. :cheers1:
Depends on the quality and extensiveness. Should be easily $200 psf to be of reasonable standard.
But living in OCR, everyday have to be trapped in traffic jam from OCR areas to city if driving, drive to everywhere also so FAR! Also, your child can't get into any famous school because outside 1km, + getting to any of these good & famous enrichment/tuition schools are just too far!
I like walking to Orchard ION and even Botanic Garden! Just feels so special to be able to do so and at a leisure pace. What car park problem in Orchard shopping belt? What traffic jam in Orchard? I don't feel any. Life is so carefree to be able to reach the longest stretch of shopping district in Singapore and our >100 years old scenic and leisurely Botanic Garden by just walking! :cheers1: People just can't appreciate it when they have not experience that. EXPERIENCE is just a so IMPORTANT word! :D
just one more time. what can you get access to from your cCR condo that we in a OCR condo cannot?
stalingrad
15-12-10, 13:13
I already answered your question in another post (see below). Please EXPERIENCE it for a year before you comment again. :cheers1:
I disagree with you.
to orchard, you would travel for only 10 to 20 minutes from OCR, depending on what you live. You may save 5 to 10 minutes by living in CCR. what cares?
the same goes for botanic garden. again, who cares.
for some parts of CBD, you are better off living in OCR. anson road and shenton way, for example.
Ok, this is up to you. I have already said what I need to say to avoid people like you smearing about living near Orchard. Regardless of whatever you try to twist about how fast you can drive to Orchard from your Carabelle, I can walk to Orchard ION faster than you drive - that is a FACT!
I can also walk to Botanic Garden faster than you drive - that is another FACT! I want to smell the plants and flowers, not the exhausts from the cars and the industry/commercial air-cons there in Anson Road and Shenton Way. I don't go there anyway and have no need to go there everyday, that is for people to go to work, not to enjoy life! I don't know how people can open their windows to smell the fresh air in the morning with all those crowded office buildings all around with industrial/commercial air-cons that are on 24-hours a day!
I disagree with you.
to orchard, you would travel for only 10 to 20 minutes from OCR, depending on what you live. You may save 5 to 10 minutes by living in CCR. what cares?
the same goes for botanic garden. again, who cares.
for some parts of CBD, you are better off living in OCR. anson road and shenton way, for example.
stalingrad
15-12-10, 13:29
Ok, this is up to you. I have already said what I need to say to avoid people like you smearing about living near Orchard. Regardless of whatever you try to twist about how fast you can drive to Orchard from your Carabelle, I can walk to Orchard ION faster than you drive - that is a FACT!
I can also walk to Botanic Garden faster than you drive - that is another FACT! I want to smell the plants and flowers, not the exhausts from the cars and the industry/commercial air-cons there in Anson Road and Shenton Way. I don't go there anyway and have no need to go there everyday, that is for people to go to work, not to enjoy life! I don't know how people can open their windows to smell the fresh air in the morning with all those crowded office buildings all around with industrial/commercial air-cons that are on 24-hours a day!
good for you. I enjoy more my cash balances in my checking accounts, and seeing my investments growing in value over time. to each his own, as you singaporeans like to say.
Regulators
15-12-10, 13:34
give the government enough time and they will make everywhere in singapore a desirable living space. luxury condos will in the future sprout up in various parts of the island regardless of district number.
No, no lambo for me. I rather buy a Merc S-350 for their safety features and reliability. The same for properties. Quality fixtures will not spoilt and malfunction easily, will not rust, will stay in same condition just like new 10 years down the road. that is why they are worth it in properties. Are you going to move out and in just to fix all these things every 2-3 years? I sure won't, and I don't want to be getting people to fix all these things every 1-2 years because of rusting, malfunction etc. I hate dealing with all these handyman/plumbers, many always trying to chop you with additional unnecessary things (not spoilt say spoilt, didn't change say change and charge more $$$)! Been there before and no thankyou! Have you heard of stainless steel tap and pipe rusting? Wow! I just can't believe it until I see that in my friends' place! They use just those cheap unbranded stainless steel taps and they are all rusting after 1 year! Even after 3 months, water spots are everywhere! So ugly and unsightly! You saw those copper pipes bursting after 2-3 years? Have you seen those cheap marbles having stains, patches, holes everywhere after 3-5 years of age?
Obviously prime properties are not all about prestige, but about the convenient and central location and easy access to everywhere and all important facilities, amenities, places in Singapore. You think I will buy a diamond studded homes in Woodlands just because they make it so luxury? (luxury as in surface but not in their quality as in built to last etc).
You expect another Botanic Garden, Orchard ION + Takashimaya + Wisma Atria, Istana sprout up in every constituency in Singapore? Good! Orchard won't be so crowded as of now! Can have a president in every constituency also! More people got chance to be president! I really hope so but unfortunately I think that can only happen in my dream! :p
give the government enough time and they will make everywhere in singapore a desirable living space. luxury condos will in the future sprout up in various parts of the island regardless of district number.
Regulators
15-12-10, 13:46
i said luxury condos, i did not say similar amenities in the CCR will sprout up in the suburbs. By the way, have you had the chance to see the human traffic at jurong point? Govt has already had the jurong lake district plan mapped out and hotels, office buildings and entertainment centres will be built around the lake in the masterplan. As much as i do not like jurong, when the govt starts to bulldoze, we just cannot stop them. You can also take a walk at the new NEX mall in Serangoon and we will expect to see many such malls cropping up all over the island in future.
You expect another Botanic Garden, Orchard ION + Takashimaya + Wisma Atria, Istana sprout up in every constituency in Singapore? Good! Orchard won't be so crowded as of now! Can have a president in every constituency also! More people got chance to be president! I really hope so but unfortunately I think that can only happen in my dream! :p
You remember Bukit Merah Central? How Govt has tried to push up that place with HDB central office there? What happened to it now? I rather believe significant private developers and owners presence rather than just Govt. Their focus will just shift when they found the place to be saturated, find another fresh new more empty place to build it up so that they can also sell the land around that used to be ulu places at sky-high prices. This is what is happening around Jurong Lake and Payar Lebar. Let's see what happen 20 years after that. May be they started shifting to Simpang? Lim Chu Kang? How about Punggol, another place they touted as seaside quality living 10 years ago, has not much progress so far. No, I don't follow where they go. I follow where I can make money and live conveniently and comfortably, and not where they can sell to make money. :cheers1:
i said luxury condos, i did not say similar amenities in the CCR will sprout up in the suburbs. By the way, have you had the chance to see the human traffic at jurong point? Govt has already had the jurong lake district plan mapped out and hotels, office buildings and entertainment centres will be built around the lake in the masterplan. As much as i do not like jurong, when the govt starts to bulldoze, we just cannot stop them. You can also take a walk at the new NEX mall in Serangoon and we will expect to see many such malls cropping up all over the island in future.
Regulators
15-12-10, 14:19
with regard to the relocation of hdb office, i think part of the reason could be due to the fact that toa payoh is more centrally located and more accessible
You remember Bukit Merah Central? How Govt has tried to push up that place with HDB central office there? What happened to it now? I rather believe significant private developers and owners presence rather than just Govt. Their focus will just shift when they found the place to be saturated, find another fresh new more empty place to build it up so that they can also sell the land around that used to be ulu places at sky-high prices. This is what is happening around Jurong Lake and Payar Lebar. Let's see what happen 20 years after that. May be they started shifting to Simpang? Lim Chu Kang? How about Punggol, another place they touted as seaside quality living 10 years ago, has not much progress so far. No, I don't follow where they go. I follow where I can make money and live conveniently and comfortably, and not where they can sell to make money. :cheers1:
A while ago, people were talking about D1 being the new prime, replacing the traditional prime D9,D10,D11.
What happened? prices for D1 has remained stagnant, including TS and MBR. average price 2xxx. For D9,D10,D11, price has maintained 3xxx to 4xxx.
comparing Robinson Suites 2600++, this is much less than Scotts Square, 3500++.
My point is government can build at other places, but the prime of primes is still Orchard for the simple reason is that price of property is sticky.
If property at Jurong increase to 2000psf, do you think Orchard will remain stagnant at 3xxx?
We can argue about % increase is more in Jurong, etc, but remember the following constraints and assumptions:
1) affordability 30-35%
2) salary relatively stagnant compare to property price increase
3) LTV 70-80%
4) mortgage tenure max 35-40 years.
How many HDB upgraders can afford a Jurong unit 1000sf @ 2000psf = $2million?
quite true though...hehe
the address/prestige still got some weightage....i own a ppty in orchard wor...its like i own porsche....lol
i wud love to own a ppty in nassim area...$ not enuff leh:ashamed1:
nassim best or ardmore park best?
for landed...i bio OCR landed now....but if i got it...mabe i will aspire to get a GCB....lol
The perception used to be stronger in the past. But now times have changed...stay in orchard area? Ok loh. Last time it was OMFG you stay in Orchard?? Now is, not bad hor, you stay in orchard. Ur apartment MM or studio? :p
The best of condos in OCR can beat the worst condos in CCR, in quantum and psf.
Like the newest OCR beating a 30year old LH in CCR for example, International Plaza.
Bukit Merah not consider centrally located compared to Toa Payoh? When I was young, Bukit Merah is considered more atas area compared to Toa Payoh. If I draw a direct line from Ochard ION, BM central is about 3km from ION while TP central is about close to 4km from ION! That has changed now? What won't change when the effort is spearheaded by the Govt? Their only constant is "Change". Good for them but not good for us! :banghead:
with regard to the relocation of hdb office, i think part of the reason could be due to the fact that toa payoh is more centrally located and more accessible
Regulators
15-12-10, 14:56
toa payoh accessible by PIE and CTE and these two expressways con link most parts of singapore to HDB hub. Bt Merah on has AYE.
Bukit Merah not consider centrally located compared to Toa Payoh? When I was young, Bukit Merah is considered more atas area compared to Toa Payoh. If I draw a direct line from Ochard ION, BM central is about 3km from ION while TP central is about close to 4km from ION! That has changed now? What won't change when the effort is spearheaded by the Govt? Their only constant is "Change". Good for them but not good for us! :banghead:
i said luxury condos, i did not say similar amenities in the CCR will sprout up in the suburbs. By the way, have you had the chance to see the human traffic at jurong point? Govt has already had the jurong lake district plan mapped out and hotels, office buildings and entertainment centres will be built around the lake in the masterplan. As much as i do not like jurong, when the govt starts to bulldoze, we just cannot stop them. You can also take a walk at the new NEX mall in Serangoon and we will expect to see many such malls cropping up all over the island in future. Personally, i find the shopping experience in the largest shopping mall the in North-East, NEX, incomparable to Takashimaya, Wisma, Plaza Singapura, Raffles City, etc. somehow different...
How to sleep soundly at night when the next day you step out of your house you get slash with padang swiping youngsters and gangsters/foreigners (as reported in newspapers in Kallang, Bukit Panjang, Yishun housing estate areas)? :p
Actually.. you don't have to step out of your house. The youngers/gangsters will climb into your house instead. They also very customer-service one.. They won't let the customer walk too far since the gangsters are taking the money and expensive items.
These shop owners - business poorer blame the pedestrian crossing? :doh:
I have very bad experience with these pedestrians at that traffic road junction before LTA removed that traffic lights - These people are crossing the road even when the traffic light is RED man and because there are so many of them that you don't even dare to drive through them! I, like many drivers, give 3x3 cheers to LTA for removing that traffic light and making the traffic so smooth at that junction there now! Ask these retailers to go fly kite for wanting to restore that traffic light! :violent-shooting:
Ask themselves to build a overhead bridge using money from their own pocket lah! The roads are built using our road taxes money, not from their own pocket! How can they expect LTA to build the overhead bridge for them using our road tax money? :banghead:
====================
Dec 11, 2010
ORCHARD ROAD RETAILERS
Push for Orchard crossing
They say underground linkway at Ion Orchard has badly affected business
By Cheryl Lim
http://www.straitstimes.com/STI/STIMEDIA/image/20101211/crossing-st.jpg Pedestrians crossing at the junction of Scotts Road and Paterson Road. -- ST PHOTO: CHEW SENG KIM
RETAILERS in Singapore's most famous shopping district are lobbying the Government to reinstate a street-level crossing, claiming that its removal has hurt business.
The once familiar pedestrian crossing is at the junction of Orchard and Paterson roads, between the Ion Orchard and Wheelock Place shopping malls.
Read the full story in The Sunday Times.
stalingrad
15-12-10, 15:21
You expect another Botanic Garden, Orchard ION + Takashimaya + Wisma Atria, Istana sprout up in every constituency in Singapore? Good! Orchard won't be so crowded as of now! Can have a president in every constituency also! More people got chance to be president! I really hope so but unfortunately I think that can only happen in my dream! :p
I wouldn't be surprised if takashimaya sets up a branch store at jurong lake, just like Icetan set up a store at vivocity.
botanic garden? I believe that chinese garden is actually better in many aspects. the bonzai trees at chinese garden are specular.
istana, I will leave this issue untouched.
Orchard ION? what does it look like without the flood? I have seen it only in photos taken during the flood. haha, you know my drift.
by the way, I used to wonder why dinosaurs went extinct. Now I know. they refused to change, just like some of the old timers in this forum. they cannot see the trees for the forest. Singapore has changed, and the days that orchard road reins supreme are numbered. owners of ardmore park will be the biggest losers.
Ops, Takashimaya. Mmm, rather I am referring to "Ngee Ann City" shopping mall of which Takashimaya is housed. Yes, please ask Ngee Ann Kongsi to build another "Ngee Ann City" at Jurong Lake. that will help to reduce those "window shoppers" current around crowding the place. :D
Orchard ION got flooding inside? Please don't anyhow spread rumours!
I wouldn't be surprised if takashimaya sets up a branch store at jurong lake, just like Icetan set up a store at vivocity.
botanic garden? I believe that chinese garden is actually better in many aspects. the bonzai trees at chinese garden are specular.
istana, I will leave this issue untouched.
Orchard ION? what does it look like without the flood? I have seen it only in photos taken during the flood. haha, you know my drift.
stalingrad
15-12-10, 15:30
Ops, Takashimaya. Mmm, rather I am referring to "Ngee Ann City" shopping mall of which Takashimaya is housed. Yes, please ask Ngee Ann Kongsi to build another "Ngee Ann City" at Jurong Lake. that will help to reduce those "window shoppers" current around crowding the place. :D
Orchard ION got flooding inside? Please don't anyhow spread rumours!
isn't flooding outside enough for you. why are you such gluttons for punishment?
what is so big deal about ngee ann city? is it as grand as umpire state building. why do you have such emotional attachment to it?
You brain-dead already is it? Why don't you ask why so many people from all over Singapore want to crowd at Ngee Ann City when they don't even live anywhere close by? Then you will find out the real reason. There are already so many shopping malls in their OCR suburbs beside or near their house according to you but they just like to crowd at Ngee Ann City! Why why why? :confused: Either so many of them got brain problem (based on your opinion) or your brain got problem? Why don't you all do a voting? (You lose for sure!) :tongue3:
isn't flooding outside enough for you. why are you such gluttons for punishment?
what is so big deal about ngee ann city? is it as grand as umpire state building. why do you have such emotional attachment to it?
Wonder if high end tourists would mind staying in Sentosa hotels, MB, or upclass hotels in downtown area to switch to suburb branch since Taka also have branch in AMK, Bishan Jurong..maybe LV will also open boutiques there...miggled with heartlanders...and still say Singapore is shopping paradise...?
I wouldn't be surprised if takashimaya sets up a branch store at jurong lake, just like Icetan set up a store at vivocity.
botanic garden? I believe that chinese garden is actually better in many aspects. the bonzai trees at chinese garden are specular.
istana, I will leave this issue untouched.
Orchard ION? what does it look like without the flood? I have seen it only in photos taken during the flood. haha, you know my drift.
by the way, I used to wonder why dinosaurs went extinct. Now I know. they refused to change, just like some of the old timers in this forum. they cannot see the trees for the forest. Singapore has changed, and the days that orchard road reins supreme are numbered. owners of ardmore park will be the biggest losers.
Not taking sides here but I believe many like myself not that big fans of botanic or orchard...once in a long while ok but not every other day.
Those are tourist attractions (like little india or chinatown) and I wouldn't want to stay in a touristy area. Matter of choice, not budget.
Private units sales up in Nov (http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporebusinessnews/view/1099306/1/.html)
Posted: 15 December 2010 1324 hrs
SINGAPORE:
....
The data, released every month, showed sales outside the prime central region (ORC) led with 1,229 units sold, followed by rest of central region (RCR) at 467 units, and core central region (CCR) at just 213 units.
......
The most expensive residential unit, priced at S$4,358 per square foot, was sold at Scotts Square, a Wheelock Properties' project on Scotts Road.
The cheapest unit was sold at Waterview, a Sim Lian project at Tampines Avenue, for S$501 per square foot.
-CNA/wk
Does this rest the case of CCR versus OCR?
Private units sales up in Nov (http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporebusinessnews/view/1099306/1/.html)
Posted: 15 December 2010 1324 hrs
SINGAPORE:
....
The data, released every month, showed sales outside the prime central region (ORC) led with 1,229 units sold, followed by rest of central region (RCR) at 467 units, and core central region (CCR) at just 213 units.
......
The most expensive residential unit, priced at S$4,358 per square foot, was sold at Scotts Square, a Wheelock Properties' project on Scotts Road.
The cheapest unit was sold at Waterview, a Sim Lian project at Tampines Avenue, for S$501 per square foot.
-CNA/wk
Does this rest the case of CCR versus OCR?
errr.. the question is which will increase in value more over the next year:) (% wise), not which is more expensive or cheaper....
Had a ran at botantic gardens over the wkend. Very nice garden :) Enjoy a Sunday tea @ PS cafe also quiet shiok. Plan to do a breakfast Pinic this Sat morning @ Botantic Garden
Yes, my carabelle has marble flooring. each piece cut from a whole slab. btw, d'leedon has homogeneous flooring throughout each unit. there is no even one granule of marble, not even one broken piece. go check it out at the showflat.
I hope this shuts him up.
I must say i am surprised! Poor Zaha...to see your child disfigured and now improperly dressed...
there is even a well in the yard of the GCB. my wife couldn't sleep at night. She kept imagining a ghost climbing out of the well to attack her. She saw too many Japanese ghost movies, one of which showed a girl ghost climbing out of a well to attack a family watching TV.
The Ring. Ms Sadako.
Funny ! See Well cannot sleep! Kudos to the director.
Teddy do u happen to own a unit at tulip garden? Your passion abt CCR is like my cousin-property guru(IMHO)
nobrainer32007
15-12-10, 21:36
Good points teddy!
This forum is infested with a lot of birdtalk people who twist facts according to their own vested interest instead of sound and logical reasonings.
Stay in hdb rental flats and no need to argue and self justify here till veins pop out of your neck.
Same chicken, different ease of access, different environment mah. Otherwise Malaysia Johor chicken rice even cheaper, why don't you go eat there everyday? Malaysia terrace house only RM100k (i.e. S$40k! Cheaper than a car in Singapore!). Why don't 95% of people in Singapore who can't afford CCR private properties go live there (can save much much more money than living in OCR or even HDB flats anywhere in Singapore)? :banghead:
In fact, if you own even a 3rm HDB flat in Singapore, you can straight-away sell it and retire in a terrace house in Malaysia Johor! Don't even need to work anymore! Why work so hard and slough for hours just to be able to buy even a HDB "pigeon hole" in Singapore? :doh:
proud owner
15-12-10, 23:48
You brain-dead already is it? Why don't you ask why so many people from all over Singapore want to crowd at Ngee Ann City when they don't even live anywhere close by? Then you will find out the real reason. There are already so many shopping malls in their OCR suburbs beside or near their house according to you but they just like to crowd at Ngee Ann City! Why why why? :confused: Either so many of them got brain problem (based on your opinion) or your brain got problem? Why don't you all do a voting? (You lose for sure!) :tongue3:
everyone goes thru a phase in life ...
i believe most of the crowd we see in orchard , ngee ann city etc are tourists and YOUNGER people ..
when i was in my teen... i hang out in orchard too ...
i personally dont like crowd ...
cannot imagine myself living at ION .... after dinner ..come downstairs for a STROLL ..have to fight the crowd .. more tiring than relaxing ...
No worry. If you stay yourself in L1 and above (not basement levels for the more general shoppers), very few crowd to squeeze with you because not many can afford the stuffs in these levels. See already they more heartache and felt like jumping from the top of Pinnacle thinking "why people can afford but I can't! :o"! :cheers1:
everyone goes thru a phase in life ...
i believe most of the crowd we see in orchard , ngee ann city etc are tourists and YOUNGER people ..
when i was in my teen... i hang out in orchard too ...
i personally dont like crowd ...
cannot imagine myself living at ION .... after dinner ..come downstairs for a STROLL ..have to fight the crowd .. more tiring than relaxing ...
everyone goes thru a phase in life ...
i believe most of the crowd we see in orchard , ngee ann city etc are tourists and YOUNGER people ..
when i was in my teen... i hang out in orchard too ...
i personally dont like crowd ...
cannot imagine myself living at ION .... after dinner ..come downstairs for a STROLL ..have to fight the crowd .. more tiring than relaxing ...
Is Ion sold out? I still see many units having empty balconies.
No worry. If you stay yourself in L1 and above (not basement levels for the more general shoppers), very few crowd to squeeze with you because not many can afford the stuffs in these levels. See already they more heartache and felt like jumping from the top of Pinnacle thinking "why people can afford but I can't! :o"! :cheers1:
ha ha... In Ion, rich people above ground. poor people under ground....:)
I already said many times, these rich people buy to leave them empty and use as weekend homes for themselves and their families. Empty balconies has been a common sight for last 13 years in many CCR properties since 1997. What is new here?
Is Ion sold out? I still see many units having empty balconies.
stalingrad
16-12-10, 09:38
I already said many times, these rich people buy to leave them empty and use as weekend homes for themselves and their families. Empty balconies has been a common sight for last 13 years in many CCR properties since 1997. What is new here?
empty balconies for weekend homes? that sounds illogical. We have used our second condo as weekend home for one year. And it is a mess now. and the balcony's plants are taller than me.
the more plausible reason that these CCR condos' balconies are bare is because the owners are stuck, not willing to sell at prices below what they paid for them.
devilplate
16-12-10, 10:11
very funny to buy orchard area for wkend home....sentosa better wat....or batam...cheaper...haha
This shows you ignorance about the lure of condos in Orchard for these foreigners. This had and still has been happening in Singapore for past 13 years regarding of property boom or property recession. What is funny to you is not funny to these owners. :p
very funny to buy orchard area for wkend home....sentosa better wat....or batam...cheaper...haha
This shows you ignorance about the lure of condos in Orchard for these foreigners. This had and still has been happening in Singapore for past 13 years regarding of property boom or property recession. You mean owners stuck for 13 years through property boom? :doh:
empty balconies for weekend homes? that sounds illogical. We have used our second condo as weekend home for one year. And it is a mess now. and the balcony's plants are taller than me.
the more plausible reason that these CCR condos' balconies are bare is because the owners are stuck, not willing to sell at prices below what they paid for them.
devilplate
16-12-10, 12:59
This shows you ignorance about the lure of condos in Orchard for these foreigners. This had and still has been happening in Singapore for past 13 years regarding of property boom or property recession. What is funny to you is not funny to these owners. :p
wkend in orchard??? u vy funny lor
they buy and park $$ one la....whr got treat it as wkend hm
wkend in orchard??? u vy funny lor
they buy and park $$ one la....whr got treat it as wkend hm
Teddy, they buy as weekend homes in orchard? Any proof to back that up? I really find that rather incredulous. Already news mentioned that is way oversupply of homes in orchard area all still left unsold - let's not bring future into the picture (that of GLS) but comparing the percentage of unsold homes for each region, Orchard is ranked number one.
Please use URA website to check for The Orchard Residences
units available 175
launched 156
sold 156
the more plausible reason that these CCR condos' balconies are bare is because the owners are stuck, not willing to sell at prices below what they paid for them.
Any Indonesians in this forum?
Actually your comment may or may not be true. Owners have holding power since the units are fully paid up.
The only cost to them is opportunity cost of fixed deposit only.
Teddy, they buy as weekend homes in orchard? Any proof to back that up? I really find that rather incredulous. Already news mentioned that is way oversupply of homes in orchard area all still left unsold - let's not bring future into the picture (that of GLS) but comparing the percentage of unsold homes for each region, Orchard is ranked number one.
How about looking at another angle?
% of unsold homes based on total units built in the region?
Not just launched and unsold.
is comparing CCR and OCR like comparing Gold and Silver?
Or is CCR like something like diamond?
The markup of jewellery grade diamond is high. Supply is abundant but tightly held and prices controlled by DeBeers.
Knowing all these,good luck bargaining at jewellery stores for a 80% discount.
Ok, let me tell you this. When I say "weekend", I mean they just use it for leisure use when they are here, and keep them empty when they are away in their own countries. Proof? Telling you my experience and what I know is enough or not? My estate in CCR near Orchard has many units owned by foreigners, I saw them only like once every month or 2, then they disappeared and their house is dark almost everyday except when they are in Singapore. They take leisurely stroll to Botanic Garden in the morning, and walk to Orchard for shopping and food everyday while they are here. I think almost 35-50% of the units are like that in my estate. That is why my estate can never be crowded as so few people using the facilities and for car park each of us can have 3 lots and still very empty, and 330 days out of 365 days there are only half of the units being occupied. :D Oh yes, 1 more thing, I have not seen real fire-sale here (in response to some people saying these people stuck and cannot sell. Cannot sell Ok no problem as long as they can hold. Got fire-sale I will buy from them first for my children).
After telling you all these, do you see that these are the another good reasons to CCR prime properties vs OCR where for the OCR everyday there are so many people and so cramped and the facilities are not even sufficient to use? BBQ have to fight to book them? Swimming pool so cramp that always bang into other people and cannot even swim in peace? Using Gym facilities have to fight and queue also? Car park lots also have to queue and even fight for them because not enough to go around? What's more? :doh:
Teddy, they buy as weekend homes in orchard? Any proof to back that up? I really find that rather incredulous. Already news mentioned that is way oversupply of homes in orchard area all still left unsold - let's not bring future into the picture (that of GLS) but comparing the percentage of unsold homes for each region, Orchard is ranked number one.
kingkong1984
16-12-10, 14:27
I like ccr....
stalingrad
16-12-10, 14:29
Ok, let me tell you this. When I say "weekend", I mean they just use it for leisure use when they are here, and keep them empty when they are away in their own countries. Proof? Telling you my experience and what I know is enough or not? My estate in CCR near Orchard has many units owned by foreigners, I saw them only like once every month or 2, then they disappeared and their house is dark almost everyday except when they are in Singapore. They take leisurely stroll to Botanic Garden in the morning, and walk to Orchard for shopping and food everyday while they are here. I think almost 35-50% of the units are like that in my estate. That is why my estate can never be crowded as so few people using the facilities and for car park each of us can have 3 lots and still very empty, and 330 days out of 365 days there are only half of the units being occupied. :D Oh yes, 1 more thing, I have not seen real fire-sale here (in response to some people saying these people stuck and cannot sell. Cannot sell Ok no problem as long as they can hold. Got fire-sale I will buy from them first for my children).
After telling you all these, do you see that these are the another good reasons to CCR prime properties vs OCR where for the OCR everyday there are so many people and so cramped and the facilities are not even sufficient to use? BBQ have to fight to book them? Swimming pool so cramp that always bang into other people and cannot even swim in peace? Using Gym facilities have to fight and queue also? Car park lots also have to queue and even fight for them because not enough to go around? What's more? :doh:
that is just not true for my ocr condo. our 30m by 50m lap pool is barely used everyday, including the weekend. perhaps my neighbors don't know how to swim? the same goes for the gym.
Can each of you get 3 car park lots entitlement? :tongue3:
that is just not true for my ocr condo. our 30m by 50m lap pool is barely used everyday, including the weekend. perhaps my neighbors don't know how to swim? the same goes for the gym.
Can each of you get 3 car park lots entitlement? :tongue3:
Think we are digressing away - whether OCR or CCR will gain most in 2011, based on property price index, either URA or NUS.
I think no one is arguing that Orchard is prime of the prime. Some condos also have 4 lots per unit.
We all know the wealth pyramid. The rich are a few and the poor, well their numbers are like cockroaches, a lot but unseen.
.......
My estate in CCR near Orchard has many units owned by foreigners, I saw them only like once every month or 2, then they disappeared and their house is dark almost everyday except when they are in Singapore.
.......
Sounds like typical Indonesians. Are the owners mostly Chinese Indonesians?
How about looking at another angle?
% of unsold homes based on total units built in the region?
Not just launched and unsold.
can you provide that data given your resourcefulness?
can you provide that data given your resourcefulness?
Sure, wait until I go to Singapore. I don't want to pay $1800 for URA Realis annual subscription :)
Daily rate is $80 but cannot download, etc. more troublesome.
Ccr to out perform OCR. Both to increase in 2011
Ccr to out perform OCR. Both to increase in 2011
Anybody wants to act as banker?
We can put money where our mouth is.
If we are right, we get money. If we are wrong, we lose money.
As of this moment, all of us are just blowing hot air. No financial repercussions if we are wrong.
stalingrad
16-12-10, 16:25
Anybody wants to act as banker?
We can put money where our mouth is.
If we are right, we get money. If we are wrong, we lose money.
As of this moment, all of us are just blowing hot air. No financial repercussions if we are wrong.
I am not sure about OCR properties. they may go higher. or they will stay where they are.
but I am sure CCR properties will stagnate for at least one more year, if they don't go lower. I don't see fundamentals for such properties. Unlike some of you, I know how it is like to live in either area. the pricing differential is unjustified, in my view.
I am not sure about OCR properties. they may go higher. or they will stay where they are.
but I am sure CCR properties will stagnate for at least one more year, if they don't go lower. I don't see fundamentals for such properties. Unlike some of you, I know how it is like to live in either area. the pricing differential is unjustified, in my view.
The thing is - buying a property is mostly sentiments, not fundamentals.
If you ask a real estate valuer, he will take a look at surrounding developments, do a bit of magic and fudging, yes that condo in CCR is high because other condos in CCR is also high. a chicken and egg situation.
How do you price fundamental factors, for example, nearness to MRT?
How much will it affect the psf if condo A is 100meter nearer to MRT than condo B. Yes condo A should be pricier, but by how much? What is considered a fair value? 50psf higher? 75psf higher?
If everybody like the Bay view, then TS and MBR will shot up as these are the only 2 that have Bay view in forseeable future.
Nature trends towards the mean. So my prediction:
A) CCR will remain stagnant, OCR will inch up towards CCR
B) CCR will fall, OCR will stay stagnant.
Of these 2 possibilities, A is more likely.
I am not sure about OCR properties. they may go higher. or they will stay where they are.
but I am sure CCR properties will stagnate for at least one more year, if they don't go lower. I don't see fundamentals for such properties. Unlike some of you, I know how it is like to live in either area. the pricing differential is unjustified, in my view.
Actually, my view differs a bit. Dec news u will see a 100% increase in CCR new developments. D'leedon n robinson suits already see ard 500 units sold not counting other development. On top of that when Tulip garden n serene centre EN BOC go thru, that is bound to cause ripples in a quiet pond.
The OCR rally will rub off RCR n OCR. it's all connected. Pricing differential sometimes ignores all logic. If not y does a 4 rm flat sells for almost 800k in stratemore when u get get a similar one in tampiness/jurong/pungol/cck for 1/2 price.
I feels it's all expectations. Pple feel it will chong they will buy. Same reason y someone pays 1050psf while many of us feel it expensive. Expectations :)
CCR is play ground for rich. Sometimes it beyond many of us even if u know will chong. 30% down for a 4m property is $1.2. Even I tell u inside infor will chong , most pole will not be able to participate. So we play in our afford range n pray for all to chong. Alot of time I also don't understand y pole can pay 40m for a GCB with well n mosquito but it doesn't mean these pple lose $$$ big time investing in wrg kind of hse.
So we pray together next 5 years chong big time together
OCR has closed the gap on CCR in 2010, but for OCR to go up further (surely OCR can over take CCR in psf terms - i seriously don't think so), CCR need to go up and 2011 is high possibilities. So for all OCR supporters, shld hope that CCR outperform in 2011 so that OCR can also go up....
OCR has closed the gap on CCR in 2010, but for OCR to go up further (surely OCR can over take CCR in psf terms - i seriously don't think so), CCR need to go up and 2011 is high possibilities. So for all OCR supporters, shld hope that CCR outperform in 2011 so that OCR can also go up....
Well said :) there is a Chinese saying , if the gum got problem the teeth also jialuk.
devilplate
16-12-10, 18:09
OCR has closed the gap on CCR in 2010, but for OCR to go up further (surely OCR can over take CCR in psf terms - i seriously don't think so), CCR need to go up and 2011 is high possibilities. So for all OCR supporters, shld hope that CCR outperform in 2011 so that OCR can also go up....
reverse also true? bottom up? top down....
Yes right, those so confident OCR why not bet on OCR properties?
Those so confident on CCR should also bet on CCR properties and make it happened!
Ok, all HUAT lah regardless of OCR or CCR! Make those who only can talk but no action one eye pop out! :p
Anybody wants to act as banker?
We can put money where our mouth is.
If we are right, we get money. If we are wrong, we lose money.
As of this moment, all of us are just blowing hot air. No financial repercussions if we are wrong.
Yes right, those so confident OCR why not bet on OCR properties?
Those so confident on CCR should also bet on CCR properties and make it happened!
Ok, all HUAT lah regardless of OCR or CCR! Make those who only can talk but no action one eye pop out! :p
alredi actioned.... all huat ah...:cheers6:
rattydrama
16-12-10, 20:16
alredi actioned.... all huat ah...:cheers6:
me too! :p Lets pray hard hard.
proud owner
16-12-10, 21:13
me too! :p Lets pray hard hard.
wait a bit lah ... my bonus only coming in mid Jan ...
Yes right, those so confident OCR why not bet on OCR properties?
Those so confident on CCR should also bet on CCR properties and make it happened!
Ok, all HUAT lah regardless of OCR or CCR! Make those who only can talk but no action one eye pop out! :p
Yes yes, NOV report out many pple spectacle drop! let the momentum ride on! 2011 CCR chong high high, then RCR tio force chong to 1500psf min ah! :)
Yes right, those so confident OCR why not bet on OCR properties?
Those so confident on CCR should also bet on CCR properties and make it happened!
Ok, all HUAT lah regardless of OCR or CCR! Make those who only can talk but no action one eye pop out! :p Have both OCR & CCR, need both to Huat in tandem.....win-win..la
reverse also true? bottom up? top down.... those that have chiong so much in 2010 will have a harder landing, so you know the answer liao. Chiong very fast and in large quantum (psf) will also fall harder if there is downturn.....
devilplate
17-12-10, 09:59
those that have chiong so much in 2010 will have a harder landing, so you know the answer liao. Chiong very fast and in large quantum (psf) will also fall harder if there is downturn.....
CCR chiong too much in 06-07 tats y now still havent breakeven?
CCR chiong too much in 06-07 tats y now still havent breakeven?
Nature tends towards the mean.
Look at PPI chart for CCR,OCR and you will understand.
during recession, all will be the same.
devilplate
17-12-10, 10:10
Nature tends towards the mean.
Look at PPI chart for CCR,OCR and you will understand.
during recession, all will be the same.
not same....CCR drop more last yr in terms of %
CCR chiong too much in 06-07 tats y now still havent breakeven?
i think so.....so cannot use 2007 peak as benchmark becos is was being pushed with nothing to support. when downturn, all super rich run tats why it drop so much
not same....CCR drop more last yr in terms of %
You get it buy you don't get it.
CCR drop more because it rose more up.
The PPI for CCR,OCR will tend to converge (as in superimposed). it has been doing so. that's why 2006-2007 was an anomaly for CCR.
And now, nature will tends towards the mean.
So OCR property price rise from $500 psf to $1000 psf got support from fundamental? Don't think so. Look that the top 20%-10% ranked earners. These are the ones buying OCR properties. Have their income/salary increased 100%? Nope, fat hope! Their income only increased by 10-20% but property prices gone up 100%! Ops! Car prices have gone up almost 100% as well and with rising education costs, food costs, etc, these group of people are now being squeezed on both ends. We just need interest rate to increase and you will see a lot of pins dropping...................... :scared-3:
Those buying new launches better watched out! If resale price cannot even be supported by fundamentals, let alone these new launch properties priced at 25% to 50% above resale price! :scared-1:
May I say OCR price is an anomaly in 2009-2010? :p We will see regression back to fundamentals 2-5 years down the road.
i think so.....so cannot use 2007 peak as benchmark becos is was being pushed with nothing to support. when downturn, all super rich run tats why it drop so much
i think so.....so cannot use 2007 peak as benchmark becos is was being pushed with nothing to support. when downturn, all super rich run tats why it drop so much
Please don't equate the big drop with lots of buying opportunities.
it drop so much but you won't see lot of firesales or volume.
As in stock trading, if small volume, a few outliers will cause the PPI for CCR to drop.
So no, super rich don't run, they have holding power. Please adjust your mindset.
devilplate
17-12-10, 10:37
Please don't equate the big drop with lots of buying opportunities.
it drop so much but you won't see lot of firesales or volume.
As in stock trading, if small volume, a few outliers will cause the PPI for CCR to drop.
So no, super rich don't run, they have holding power. Please adjust your mindset.
last yr, definitely can find more CCR firesale....my own experience...no proof
devilplate
17-12-10, 10:39
both segment i wun touch actually....stocks better:D
last yr, definitely can find more CCR firesale....my own experience...no proof
just check volume of transactions during 2007-2010.
For property, when it is downturn, price goes down but volume is also down.
when upturn, price goes up and volume goes up.
That's the magic of property investment.
The worse case if economy go south and mortgage rates goes north, even then volume of property transactions will be low.
Who will buy the firesales? Banks will be very conservative in a downturn.
And if banks repossessed and auction, who will buy if no financing?
BTW, when banks repossessed, is it considered a transaction? as in banks pay stamp duty etc to show that bank is now the legal owner? Does it show in URA?
bargain hunter
17-12-10, 11:07
i am also not adding to ppty exposure. new funds buy stocks better. if forumers here are comparing OCR and CCR vs their 2007 highs what about stocks? sti > 20% up then will reach 2007 high. individual stocks likely even at further discount. :cheers5: of course this is only a simplistic comparison. someone said maybe buyers of ppties now made a windfall from stock market but i thought its the reverse? its the ppty market which has been outperforming for years. :confused:
both segment i wun touch actually....stocks better:D
kingkong1984
17-12-10, 12:26
http://lushhomemedia.com/2010/12/17/more-price-upside-for-luxury-homes-analysts/
Stocks will not get as high return as properties consistently over a long period of >10 years. Many companies that are high-flyers or people's blue-eye boys are either long gone or prices going no where. For properties, hold long long sure make money. The same is not true for stocks. Stocks are fraud with very risks that are totally out of our control (not like properties, you can see, touch, smell, know what is going on in the estate and their surroundings and hence assess their value. Not so easy for stocks! Stocks can be easily manipulated, both in term of prices, their financial statements etc whereas properties have no such problems). Thread with care! :cheers1:
i am also not adding to ppty exposure. new funds buy stocks better. if forumers here are comparing OCR and CCR vs their 2007 highs what about stocks? sti > 20% up then will reach 2007 high. individual stocks likely even at further discount. :cheers5: of course this is only a simplistic comparison. someone said maybe buyers of ppties now made a windfall from stock market but i thought its the reverse? its the ppty market which has been outperforming for years. :confused:
http://lushhomemedia.com/2010/12/17/more-price-upside-for-luxury-homes-analysts/
I just love their reasoning.
Yet, deals above $4,000 psf are still rare. Analysts say that this shows the luxury segment still has room for capital appreciation.
..........
Investors are still not paying top dollar for extra exclusivity – a sign that they have been cautious on luxury homes in the current property cycle. Prices of mass-market homes, meanwhile, have already surpassed their 2007 peaks.
Even then, analysts say it’s only a matter of time before prices of luxury properties catch up with – and exceed – their 2007 peak.
so just because CCR has not exceed peak, so it will exceed peak, only a matter of time but don't know when....
It doesn't take much IQ to be a property analyst in Singapore?
I just love their reasoning.
Yet, deals above $4,000 psf are still rare. Analysts say that this shows the luxury segment still has room for capital appreciation.
..........
Investors are still not paying top dollar for extra exclusivity – a sign that they have been cautious on luxury homes in the current property cycle. Prices of mass-market homes, meanwhile, have already surpassed their 2007 peaks.
Even then, analysts say it’s only a matter of time before prices of luxury properties catch up with – and exceed – their 2007 peak.
so just because CCR has not exceed peak, so it will exceed peak, only a matter of time but don't know when....
It doesn't take much IQ to be a property analyst in Singapore?
everyone can be the "expert". juz use last paek/low to predict the next peak/low. since last year they have been saying prime has room to grow becos is xx% below peak....but does it come trur??? their expert view really insult our IQ:doh:
Stocks will not get as high return as properties consistently over a long period of >10 years. Many companies that are high-flyers or people's blue-eye boys are either long gone or prices going no where. For properties, hold long long sure make money. The same is not true for stocks. Stocks are fraud with very risks that are totally out of our control (not like properties, you can see, touch, smell, know what is going on in the estate and their surroundings and hence assess their value. Not so easy for stocks! Stocks can be easily manipulated, both in term of prices, their financial statements etc whereas properties have no such problems). Thread with care! :cheers1:
the "red" sound like the propertism god Jlrx.......are u HIM???
bargain hunter
17-12-10, 13:08
yup, i agree. stocks are not for everyone. cannot buy the wrong stock. ;)
Stocks will not get as high return as properties consistently over a long period of >10 years. Many companies that are high-flyers or people's blue-eye boys are either long gone or prices going no where. For properties, hold long long sure make money. The same is not true for stocks. Stocks are fraud with very risks that are totally out of our control (not like properties, you can see, touch, smell, know what is going on in the estate and their surroundings and hence assess their value. Not so easy for stocks! Stocks can be easily manipulated, both in term of prices, their financial statements etc whereas properties have no such problems). Thread with care! :cheers1:
everyone can be the "expert". juz use last paek/low to predict the next peak/low. since last year they have been saying prime has room to grow becos is xx% below peak....but does it come trur??? their expert view really insult our IQ:doh:
The thing is they are paid to do so.....
so let me make my stand clear on CCR and OCR.
The gap will converge.
CCR will be relatively stagnant.
OCR will inch upwards to close the gap with CCR in the PPI chart.
Hopefully it comes true, then those people in real estate agencies will be wowed :eek: by my brilliant insights :ashamed1: and I can apply for a job as an analyst there and apply for PR :)
Property does show consistent returns over any 10 yr period but it tends to be less liquid and more a leverage option.
I prefer a blend of property, stocks, and cash.
Stocks have it;s own attraction, dividend yield can be better than property, liquid and not so differentiated as property. (No need to check if there are leaks, facing, crack, reno, high/low floor, near this or that, deal with agents). If you know what you're doing, it;s much less troublesome and more than equally rewarding.
What PPI chart? Those chart are pretty useless to compare between CCR and OCR. Why not you state in terms of $PSF easier for us to understand your stand and see whether you are right or wrong 2-3 years down the road? :D
The thing is they are paid to do so.....
so let me make my stand clear on CCR and OCR.
The gap will converge.
CCR will be relatively stagnant.
OCR will inch upwards to close the gap with CCR in the PPI chart.
Hopefully it comes true, then those people in real estate agencies will be wowed :eek: by my brilliant insights :ashamed1: and I can apply for a job as an analyst there and apply for PR :)
What PPI chart? Those chart are pretty useless to compare between CCR and OCR. Why not you state in terms of $PSF easier for us to understand your stand and see whether you are right or wrong 2-3 years down the road? :D
Even now, condos in CCR psf range from 900-5000.
OCR range is albeit smaller as I dont foresee OCR hitting 4000psf.
How to state using PSF? which condos to benchmark etc?
What is the methodology you proposed?
I just love their reasoning.
Yet, deals above $4,000 psf are still rare. Analysts say that this shows the luxury segment still has room for capital appreciation.
..........
Investors are still not paying top dollar for extra exclusivity – a sign that they have been cautious on luxury homes in the current property cycle. Prices of mass-market homes, meanwhile, have already surpassed their 2007 peaks.
Even then, analysts say it’s only a matter of time before prices of luxury properties catch up with – and exceed – their 2007 peak.
so just because CCR has not exceed peak, so it will exceed peak, only a matter of time but don't know when....
It doesn't take much IQ to be a property analyst in Singapore?
Yup exactly my point - doesn't mean just becos it's a peak it has to be always surpassed.
Up to you lah, just some condos with sufficient number of units and transactions to benchmark. E.g. the 338 units Carabelle as representative of OCR, 486 units Park Infinia as representative of CCR? :D
You think Carabelle will transact at almost same price as Park Infinia since you said CCR will stagnant and OCR will rise to converge with CCR? :cheers1:
Even now, condos in CCR psf range from 900-5000.
OCR range is albeit smaller as I dont foresee OCR hitting 4000psf.
How to state using PSF? which condos to benchmark etc?
What is the methodology you proposed?
devilplate
17-12-10, 14:24
Up to you lah, just some condos with sufficient number of units and transactions to benchmark. E.g. the 338 units Carabelle as representative of OCR, 486 units Park Infinia as representative of CCR? :D
You think Carabelle will transact at almost same price as Park Infinia since you said CCR will stagnant and OCR will rise to converge with CCR? :cheers1:
lets monitor after 1yr lor...park infinia around 1800psf and carabelle around 950-1kpsf....almost half....lets see converge or widen
both i WUN touch now:D
Up to you lah, just some condos with sufficient number of units and transactions to benchmark. E.g. the 338 units Carabelle as representative of OCR, 486 units Park Infinia as representative of CCR? :D
You think Carabelle will transact at almost same price as Park Infinia since you said CCR will stagnant and OCR will rise to converge with CCR? :cheers1:
Haha, why not use International Plaza/People Park versus Carabelle.
I am not saying that Carabelle will transact at the same price as Park Infinia.
I am refering is to PPI chart, as a whole, PPI OCR and CCR will converge again. Just because they converge doesn't mean they are at the same price.
I think there were a few posting on URA PPI index and on what they meant.
base year was 1998, both start at 100.
Reasons: we have to compare apple to apple since the 2 you quoted are too different to compare because:
1) People Park is "Apt" with almost 0 facility; Carabelle is "Condo".
2) PP is 99LH; Carabelle is 999LH.
3) PP is too old (TOP 1970); Carabelle TOP 2008(?)
Another thing, I don't usually include D1 in CCR. I prefer to use only historical D9, D10, & D11 as CCR. Soon, you will see D14 also labelled as CCR (more to become labelled as CCR in future to justify selling sky-high prices to you!).
So How to compare like that?
Forget about those PPI since they can't be compared across different kinds of PPI. How to compare PPI_OCR vs PPI_CCR? Just by looking at the index can't even give you a clue about the actual $PSF value and you can't make much use of them except to see some historical trend within CCR or OCR but not compare across.
Haha, why not use International Plaza/People Park versus Carabelle.
I am not saying that Carabelle will transact at the same price as Park Infinia.
I am refering is to PPI chart, as a whole, PPI OCR and CCR will converge again. Just because they converge doesn't mean they are at the same price.
I think there were a few posting on URA PPI index and on what they meant.
base year was 1998, both start at 100.
......
Forget about those PPI since they can't be compared across different kinds of PPI. How to compare PPI_OCR vs PPI_CCR? Just by looking at the index can't even give you a clue about the actual $PSF value and you can't make much use of them except to see some historical trend within CCR or OCR but not compare across.
What can be deduced just by looking from PPI graphs?
1) PPI CCR 2010 has not exceeded Peak PPI CCR 2007.
2) PPI OCR 2010 has exceeded Peak PPI OCR 2007.
3) comparing the gap between PPI CCR and OCR in 2007 versus 2010, the gap has narrowed.
What does that tell us?
1) OCR as a whole is rising faster than CCR, (but don't know which property)
which is confirmed on the ground as many forummers here will attest.
2) CCR as a whole has not yet reached the peak of 2007.
which is confirmed on the ground as many forummers here will attest also.
for simplicity sake, a 20% increase in PPI for both CCR and OCR.
OCR increase from 800 to 960 - a 160psf increase.
CCR increase from 3000 to 3600 - a 600psf increase.
The psf gap has increase from 2200 to 2640psf.
But the gap in PPI is still the same.
which one is more easily achieved?
so CCR have to increase by 600 just to maintain the same gap as OCR.
if instead CCR increase by 300 only, 10%. the psf gap between CCR and OCR will still increase but narrowing ie from initial 2200 to 2340.
But the gap in PPI is narrowing.
The issue with these PPI is: who determine the base price to be used for building the PPI? Imagine I change the base now to 2010 Dec, what will happened? As I said, they are useful just for looking at trend, and not to compare across different PPIs since both have different base prices. Changing the base prices makes a lot of difference. That is how clever people use "statistics" to let others see what they want to see. So either you are the clever ones wanting people to see just what you want others to see by wanting people to just compare the PPIs or you are the opposite. :cheers1:
What can be deduced just by looking from PPI graphs?
1) PPI CCR 2010 has not exceeded Peak PPI CCR 2007.
2) PPI OCR 2010 has exceeded Peak PPI OCR 2007.
3) comparing the gap between PPI CCR and OCR in 2007 versus 2010, the gap has narrowed.
What does that tell us?
1) OCR as a whole is rising faster than CCR, (but don't know which property)
which is confirmed on the ground as many forummers here will attest.
2) CCR as a whole has not yet reached the peak of 2007.
which is confirmed on the ground as many forummers here will attest also.
for simplicity sake, a 20% increase in PPI for both CCR and OCR.
OCR increase from 800 to 960 - a 160psf increase.
CCR increase from 3000 to 3600 - a 600psf increase.
The psf gap has increase from 2200 to 2640psf.
But the gap in PPI is still the same.
which one is more easily achieved?
so CCR have to increase by 600 just to maintain the same gap as OCR.
if instead CCR increase by 300 only, 10%. the psf gap between CCR and OCR will still increase but narrowing ie from initial 2200 to 2340.
But the gap in PPI is narrowing.
The issue with these PPI is: who determine the base price to be used for building the PPI? Imagine I change the base now to 2010 Dec, what will happened? As I said, they are useful just for looking at trend, and not to compare across different PPIs since both have different base prices. Changing the base prices makes a lot of difference. That is how clever people use "statistics" to let others see what they want to see. So either you are the clever ones wanting people to see just what you want others to see by wanting people to just compare the PPIs or you are the opposite. :cheers1:
PPI is not determined by me by the way so no, I am not one of the clever ones wanting people to see just what I want others to see.
PPI from NUS base year is 2000. PPI from URA 1998.
In fact, if base year is change every year, then the indice has relatively no value.
Does anybody here question how they calculate STI index, whether the companies are representative of the stock market as a whole, or sectors like Manufacturing, Finance etc. Do we trust them or do we not?
Why then do we question the validity of PPI data?
I think other than people who play STI futures / ETFs, nobody really cares how STI index is calculated since it is as useless to most people as PPI index. :cheers1:
Does anybody here question how they calculate STI index, whether the companies are representative of the stock market as a whole, or sectors like Manufacturing, Finance etc. Do we trust them or do we not?
Why then do we question the validity of PPI data?
bargain hunter
17-12-10, 16:51
nevermind, we shall use all 3 measures then:
1) PPI by URA
2) the NUS one which only has Core and Non Core
&
3) Park Infinia (1864.6psf) average of top 10psf (since teddy is such a fan of psf) vs Carabelle (977.6psf) average of top 10psf. at the moment Park Infinia is 90.732% more expensive than Carabelle. let's check back again on 18th Dec 2011 and see if its narrowed or widened.
:D
devilplate
17-12-10, 16:53
sometimes by knowing too much technicalities no-no....
everything also scare to invest....SG govt bond BEST:D
bargain hunter
17-12-10, 17:21
just for comparison purposes, the most recent 10 transactions average:
Park Infinia (1817.9psf) vs Carabelle (951.8psf)
The premium is similar at 91%.
personally, i like this measure the best, a showdown between stalin and teddy. :tongue3:
3) Park Infinia (1864.6psf) average of top 10psf (since teddy is such a fan of psf) vs Carabelle (977.6psf) average of top 10psf. at the moment Park Infinia is 90.732% more expensive than Carabelle. let's check back again on 18th Dec 2011 and see if its narrowed or widened.
Even a recent caveat for 99LH Southbank at D7 (near lavender) achieving $1700psf for a 614sqft unit. Units with good location can still move.
kingkong1984
17-12-10, 19:27
just for comparison purposes, the most recent 10 transactions average:
Park Infinia (1817.9psf) vs Carabelle (951.8psf)
The premium is similar at 91%.
personally, i like this measure the best, a showdown between staling and teddy. :tongue3:
Gold is everywhere, its nice to hear about cool down to avert a over heated state. All happy in the end, rich still make money and poor can still hope. A very delicate balance.
stalingrad
17-12-10, 19:38
just for comparison purposes, the most recent 10 transactions average:
Park Infinia (1817.9psf) vs Carabelle (951.8psf)
The premium is similar at 91%.
personally, i like this measure the best, a showdown between stalin and teddy. :tongue3:
I like duchess residences vs. carabelle. it you guys use this pair for your wager, carabelle is sure to win. duchess residences is a sure loser.
just for comparison purposes, the most recent 10 transactions average:
Park Infinia (1817.9psf) vs Carabelle (951.8psf)
The premium is similar at 91%.
personally, i like this measure the best, a showdown between stalin and teddy. :tongue3:
Even with this wide gap, I will still prefer Park Infinia to Carabelle. Carabelle loses out in terms of location, view, district prestige and possibly even quality. Will you go for a Prada Infinia or a Coach Carabelle?
CCR chiong too much in 06-07 tats y now still havent breakeven?
Can't generalise and pin-point single reason, have to look into details. If u look at those days, foreign investors/buyers besides the traditional buyers of Indonesians, Malaysians, also include rich Arabs, even Russians and Eastern Europeans- (some of them still licking their wounds for investment in their own countries, but slowly coming back). Now PRC segment is growing as curbs in their own countries getting more. Indian investors also coming...
bargain hunter
17-12-10, 21:06
yup, that would be a personal preference. :) as forumers have gotten a bit hot about CCR vs OCR price appreciation potential in 2011, i guess this magic 91% makes for interesting comparison just for the fun of it. :ashamed1:
Even with this wide gap, I will still prefer Park Infinia to Carabelle. Carabelle loses out in terms of location, view, district prestige and possibly even quality. Will you go for a Prada Infinia or a Coach Carabelle?
bargain hunter
17-12-10, 21:15
i think the projects are a bit too different to compare. duchess has much fewer units (thus, lower transactions too), is still not TOP yet (or has it?):doh: and the units are much bigger. but if u r confident on carabelle, i don't see why it can't beat Park Infinia in terms of % price appreciation over 1 year.
I like duchess residences vs. carabelle. it you guys use this pair for your wager, carabelle is sure to win. duchess residences is a sure loser.
Even with this wide gap, I will still prefer Park Infinia to Carabelle. Carabelle loses out in terms of location, view, district prestige and possibly even quality. Will you go for a Prada Infinia or a Coach Carabelle?
Of course Carabelle is built by a HDB developer with quality problems even with HDB flats. How to compare? Quality is way way below...Carabelle is Coach? More like fake Coach from China...
proud owner
17-12-10, 22:48
Even with this wide gap, I will still prefer Park Infinia to Carabelle. Carabelle loses out in terms of location, view, district prestige and possibly even quality. Will you go for a Prada Infinia or a Coach Carabelle?
neither
prada and coach are the new favorites of PRCs so stay out
channel and hermes are the IN brand now
until the PRCs start to move in ...
I thought LV is the favorite of PRCs:doh:
You can see long Q at the entrance of LV shop everywhere nowaday..........
neither
prada and coach are the new favorites of PRCs so stay out
channel and hermes are the IN brand now
until the PRCs start to move in ...
Actually i pray for Crabelle to sell $1500psf ..... all owner in CCR/RCR/HDB also will hope so.
U think DR will sell how much? U guys so silly one. Gum bleed teeth also jia luk ma. Water come in all boats also rise wat! If staglin got 100m u think he need u to teach him buy where meh? we all bound by limited resources ma and different priorities ma.
i personally feel its silly to think OCR will continue to chong and CCR will be stagnant. Where got water come in, my boat rise, other's boat dont rise cos boat more heavy.....
Maybe different pple definition of CCR is different? It can be from $1400- $4000psf development.
neither
prada and coach are the new favorites of PRCs so stay out
channel and hermes are the IN brand now
until the PRCs start to move in ...
You are wrong... I don't think you know your brands well.
Coach is too cheap for PRC.
Prada is too avant garde and ultra-trendy and logo too tiny for PRC.
The favourite of PRC are Gucci and LV, because the logo everywhere, cannot miss one. Their thinking is, since spend money liao, must show off until gao pun. Something like teddybear logic like that, you know.
Chanel also starting to interest PRC liao... Watch out.
Don't think PRC will ever get into Hermes. Too understated.
So is it agreeable to all to take the following?
1) PPI by URA
2) the NUS one which only has Core and Non Core
3) Park Infinia average of top 10psf vs Carabelle average of top 10psf. let's check back again on 18th Dec 2011.
The outcome
1) gap between CCR and OCR same ( +-2% margin)
2) gap between CCR and OCR narrow (more than 2%)
3) gap between CCR and OCR widen (more than 2%)
4) Park Infinia % gain same as Carabelle % gain (+-2% margin)
5) Park Infinia % gain more than Carabelle % gain (more than 2% gain difference)
6) Carabelle % gain more than Park Infinia % gain (more than 2% gain difference)
Can we start polling? or does other bros want to modify, give input etc?
....If staglin got 100m u think he need u to teach him buy where meh? we all bound by limited resources ma and different priorities ma.
...
Even the billionaires have financial advisers.
Straits Times Singapore, 2 Dec, 2010, Thursday
RIDOUT PROPERTY BATTLE
Court clears sale of $37m bungalow
Judge rules against group that claimed it had $20m deal to buy property
By Gabriel Chen
The purchase of the Ridout Road bungalow is expected to be concluded some time this month. But EC Investment Holding has filed an appeal to overturn the sale. — ST PHOTO: CAROLINE CHIA A COURT has ruled against a group who claimed they had a deal to buy a Ridout Road bungalow for $20 million. The move paves the way for the owner, Indonesian-born businessman Agus Anwar, to sell the house for $37 million to a banker who served the late Nina Wang, who was Asia’s richest woman.
Two parties – EC Investment Holding, owned by Mr Tan Koo Chuan of Yi Kai Group and Mr Melvin Poh of Fission Group, and former Goldman Sachs banker Thomas Chan – were fighting for control of the house at 39A Ridout Road that Mr Agus bought in 2006.
But three months ago, the High Court ordered the sale of the property in the upmarket Holland district to Mr Chan for $37 million.
The purchase of the two-storey property by Mr Chan – which sits on a 40,600 sq ft plot, complete with a tennis court and swimming pool in the good-class bungalow area – is expected to be concluded some time this month.
But the story may not be over yet. EC Investment Holding has filed an appeal to overturn the sale with the hearing expected to be held in March, sources say.
Mr Agus originally acquired the 40,600 sq ft house for $28 million in 2006. He had paid $11 million and the stamp duty of over $744,000 from his own funds, and taking the balance of $17 million from a $30 million facility extended to him by Hong Leong Finance.
However, the financial crisis hit his finances and, on May 16, 2008, Hong Leong Finance recalled the loan and terminated the facility after Mr Agus failed to make his payments.
‘Agus Anwar was coming under increasing financial pressure. His investments were then badly hit by the global financial crisis sparked off by the collapse of Lehman Brothers in September 2008,’ according to a High Court judgment dated September this year.
EC Investment Holding claims that in the terms of a deal dated June 8 last year, it was granted an option to buy Mr Agus’ property for $20 million, in exchange for a $1.5 million option fee. Mr Chan also obtained an option to buy the property for $37 million on Oct 8 last year.
Justice Quentin Loh, in his September judgment, noted that EC Investment knew before it entered into the transaction that Mr Agus was desperate for a short-term loan.
He said that EC Investment Holding’s Mr Tan ‘feigned ignorance on many things and kept up the simple mantra that he was only interested in property, smelt a good deal and went after it’.
Based on the evidence, the court did not grant EC Investment’s request that the sale be completed.
EC’s Yi Kai and Fission are behind the development Alexis along Alexandra Road.
As for Mr Chan, Justice Loh said that ‘everyone accepted that he had innocently walked straight into this melee’. Mr Chan had wanted to buy a bungalow and after being introduced to the property, acted decisively in putting down an option fee. He did not meet Mr Agus at all and was unaware of the earlier option.
Mr Agus, said to be in his late 50s and now a Singaporean, is no stranger to court battles.
In January, he was ordered by the High Court to make good on the payment of a $10.5 million loan he received two years ago from an investment firm while in financial difficulty.
Mr Agus was once a significant shareholder in two Indonesian banks, PT Bank Kredit Asia and PT Bank Pelita, but there was a run on these banks during the 1997 financial meltdown and they were taken over by the Indonesian Bank Restructuring Agency.
Mr Agus came to Singapore in 2000 and became a citizen in 2004 – the same year he made headlines for allegedly owing the Indonesian government 3.2 trillion rupiah, or $467 million.
The $37 million will help him clear more of his debt – as of the middle of this year, he had personal available assets of nearly $60 million, but owed creditors $103.3 million.
But, with March’s appeal hearing on the horizon, the wrangle over the Ridout property could drag on.
.......
Mr Agus was once a significant shareholder in two Indonesian banks, PT Bank Kredit Asia and PT Bank Pelita, but there was a run on these banks during the 1997 financial meltdown and they were taken over by the Indonesian Bank Restructuring Agency.
Mr Agus came to Singapore in 2000 and became a citizen in 2004 – the same year he made headlines for allegedly owing the Indonesian government 3.2 trillion rupiah, or $467 million.
The $37 million will help him clear more of his debt – as of the middle of this year, he had personal available assets of nearly $60 million, but owed creditors $103.3 million.
........
This is to Teddy - why Indonesians buy expensive condos, bungalows in Singapore.
And that's why up to now, Singapore has no extradition treaty with Indonesia.
and to all - That's why Orchard Road condos can be half-empty. It is just a place to park their money :) Fully paid for and have holding power. Please dont talk about yield to them. :scared-5:
If the poor owes the banks, the poor are in trouble if they refuse to pay.
If the rich owes the banks, the banks are in trouble if they refuse to pay.
You are wrong... I don't think you know your brands well.
Coach is too cheap for PRC.
Prada is too avant garde and ultra-trendy and logo too tiny for PRC.
The favourite of PRC are Gucci and LV, because the logo everywhere, cannot miss one. Their thinking is, since spend money liao, must show off until gao pun. Something like teddybear logic like that, you know.
Chanel also starting to interest PRC liao... Watch out.
Don't think PRC will ever get into Hermes. Too understated.
Precisely!! Chanel and Hermes represent the luxury high-end condos in Orchard and River Valley. But there will always be market for the LV, Gucci condos as well because they are slightly more affordable by many people. So will you prefer to join us to buy these or to buy from a basket of cheap bags in neighbourhood town centres?
I thought u r referring to yourself- like to show off n pursue blanded stuffs...:rolleyes:
You are wrong... I don't think you know your brands well.
Coach is too cheap for PRC.
Prada is too avant garde and ultra-trendy and logo too tiny for PRC.
The favourite of PRC are Gucci and LV, because the logo everywhere, cannot miss one. Their thinking is, since spend money liao, must show off until gao pun. Something like teddybear logic like that, you know.
Chanel also starting to interest PRC liao... Watch out.
Don't think PRC will ever get into Hermes. Too understated.
Precisely!! Chanel and Hermes represent the luxury high-end condos in Orchard and River Valley. But there will always be market for the LV, Gucci condos as well because they are slightly more affordable by many people. So will you prefer to join us to buy these or to buy from a basket of cheap bags in neighbourhood town centres?
How many of us here actually know our branded stuff?
How many of us can tell the difference between genuine and Grade A copy at 1 metre away?
How many of us can tell the difference between genuine and Grade A copy at hand inspection?
How many of us can tell the difference between moissanite, lab grown and natural diamond?
Finally, you have also acknowledged and pointed out the fact that "That's why Orchard Road condos can be half-empty. It is just a place to park their money :) Fully paid for and have holding power. Please dont talk about yield to them.".
Your posts should be specifically directed to Wild Falcon and Stalingrad etc questioning that since Orchard Road property half-empty and some yield not good means prices sure crash! Is that so? You have enlightened them on these! :cheers1:
And I like your statement:
"If the poor owes the banks, the poor are in trouble if they refuse to pay.
If the rich owes the banks, the banks are in trouble if they refuse to pay." :cheers6:
Look at the Suites@Central 30 units buyers, cannot pay up and developer still have to give him grace period, end up he make so much money because prices suddenly shoot up while he was selling! :eek:
This is to Teddy - why Indonesians buy expensive condos, bungalows in Singapore.
And that's why up to now, Singapore has no extradition treaty with Indonesia.
and to all - That's why Orchard Road condos can be half-empty. It is just a place to park their money :) Fully paid for and have holding power. Please dont talk about yield to them. :scared-5:
If the poor owes the banks, the poor are in trouble if they refuse to pay.
If the rich owes the banks, the banks are in trouble if they refuse to pay.
stalingrad
18-12-10, 08:41
So is it agreeable to all to take the following?
1) PPI by URA
2) the NUS one which only has Core and Non Core
3) Park Infinia average of top 10psf vs Carabelle average of top 10psf. let's check back again on 18th Dec 2011.
The outcome
1) gap between CCR and OCR same ( +-2% margin)
2) gap between CCR and OCR narrow (more than 2%)
3) gap between CCR and OCR widen (more than 2%)
4) Park Infinia % gain same as Carabelle % gain (+-2% margin)
5) Park Infinia % gain more than Carabelle % gain (more than 2% gain difference)
6) Carabelle % gain more than Park Infinia % gain (more than 2% gain difference)
Can we start polling? or does other bros want to modify, give input etc?
you are on. I will wager $300 on carabelle. who is the banker (like in monopoly) that will keep the money for us.
........
Look at the Suites@Central 30 units buyers, cannot pay up and developer still have to give him grace period, end up he make so much money because prices suddenly shoot up while he was selling! :eek:
To those who are in the dark:
This is the article:
Straits Times, 9 May 2009
May 09 2009
Developer says: time to pay up Buyer says: give me more time
ANOTHER buyer who purchased luxury condominiums in bulk under the deferred payment scheme is now having trouble paying up.
Keppel Land said yesterday that an Indonesian investor who bought 51 units at The Suites @ Central in Devonshire Road has asked for more time to cough up the final payments.
The investor paid $1,806 per sq ft (psf) for the freehold apartments, which were bought in June 2007, Keppel said in a filing to the Singapore Exchange. It would not disclose the total price of the units or whether the investor is an individual or an institution, such as a company or a fund.
But a check of the Urban Redevelopment Authority’s (URA) Realis caveats shows that a series of 51 units were sold at that time for a total of $127 million. The units were not bought in a single block and do not appear to make up entire floors, but span the second to the 33rd floors.
The units were bought under the deferred payment scheme. This means the buyer made a downpayment of 20 per cent of the purchase price and then deferred the rest of the payments until the apartments were completed.
The Suites @ Central was completed in February, but the buyer failed to pay up on time.
Two other buyers, both Singaporeans, also missed the payment deadline, Keppel said. One had bought two apartments in the fully-sold project; the other had bought three.
Keppel has received payment for the other 101 apartments in the 157-unit project, which is a 60-40 joint venture between Keppel and Chip Eng Seng.
The Indonesian buyer has asked for an extension of the payment deadline in order to ‘arrange funds for payments’, Keppel said.
The developer has agreed to a six-month extension starting from yesterday, but is requiring the Indonesian buyer to pay $500,000 per month during the extension period. The first payment has already been received, Keppel said.
Other developers have also recently reported problems collecting payments for units they sold under the deferred payment scheme.
MCL Land ran into trouble last month with the buyer of its Fernhill condominium off Stevens Road. The buyer, reported to be a company called Concordia Overseas controlled by a Hong Kong resident named Chan Ki, had purchased all 25 units in the project and managed to resell five soon after.
But when the time came to make payment for the 20 units it still owned, Concordia missed a few deadlines. It subsequently managed to resell 19 units in time to meet the final deadline, but reportedly at a loss.
The price Concordia paid for the units was $1,410 psf, but the Business Times reported that it fetched only $1,180 psf for the 19 units it resold.
Market watchers said that if the Indonesian buyer of the 51 units at The Suites @ Central has to offload the apartments in a hurry, it may end up making a loss.
The average price of apartments at the project has fallen to about $1,470 psf, according to five caveats lodged for units that have been sold so far this year.
More buyers with payment problems could surface in the coming months, as the property slump coincides with the fallout from the deferred payment scheme, which was scrapped in October 2007.
Some 29,250 homes planned for completion between last year and 2013 were offered with the deferred payment scheme, the URA revealed last year. Analysts have estimated that about 14,000 were actually sold under the scheme.
But even if a handful of buyers default, it may not be statistically significant, noted Mr Nicholas Mak, director of research and consultancy at Knight Frank.
At CapitaLand’s RiverGate, about 2 per cent of buyers have missed payments since the project was completed in March, the developer said on Thursday. Most of the project’s buyers had opted to take the deferred payment scheme.
‘Two per cent is not an alarming figure,’ said Mr Mak. ‘Once in a while you get cases like a single buyer unable to pay for 51 units but, if you look at the bigger picture, it may just be a small proportion.’
But he added that next year will be the time of reckoning, as many projects that were sold during the height of the market – in the second half of 2007 and early last year – will be completed then, with the bulk of their payments due.
How many of us here actually know our branded stuff?
How many of us can tell the difference between genuine and Grade A copy at 1 metre away?
How many of us can tell the difference between genuine and Grade A copy at hand inspection?
How many of us can tell the difference between moissanite, lab grown and natural diamond?
Those who know their brands well and have been able to afford buying them, will be able to tell. Those who are not able to afford this type of experience cannot tell any difference and need not tell because they shouldn't be considered in this picture. Similarly, those who can tell a good grade condo in a good location and expensive area can tell the difference between that apartment and another one in the suburb. Those who cannot afford either, shouldn't even come in to try to justify the price gap.
So is it agreeable to all to take the following?
1) PPI by URA
2) the NUS one which only has Core and Non Core
3) Park Infinia average of top 10psf vs Carabelle average of top 10psf. let's check back again on 18th Dec 2011.
The outcome
1) gap between CCR and OCR same ( +-2% margin)
2) gap between CCR and OCR narrow (more than 2%)
3) gap between CCR and OCR widen (more than 2%)
4) Park Infinia % gain same as Carabelle % gain (+-2% margin)
5) Park Infinia % gain more than Carabelle % gain (more than 2% gain difference)
6) Carabelle % gain more than Park Infinia % gain (more than 2% gain difference)
Can we start polling? or does other bros want to modify, give input etc?
Too complicated... keep it simple.
Refer to first post in this thread.....:)
Those who know their brands well and have been able to afford buying them, will be able to tell. Those who are not able to afford this type of experience cannot tell any difference and need not tell because they shouldn't be considered in this picture. Similarly, those who can tell a good grade condo in a good location and expensive area can tell the difference between that apartment and another one in the suburb. Those who cannot afford either, shouldn't even come in to try to justify the price gap.
You can tell the difference between synthetic and natural diamond using naked eye? or even with 10x scope? wow. even experienced and trained gemonologist are fooled. Of course, now DeBeers have provided them the equipment to differentiate.
Anyway, there are grades of knockoff.
The best is those from the workshops that made the genuine products themselves. Those fashion houses, they outsource the production to workshop for say 1000 handbags. The workshops produce 1300 pieces instead, Excess 300 they sell to a fence. Cost of production for a fashion goods is miniscule compared to the selling price.
Apart from those workshops, Grade A stuff are hard to differentiate also. You have to know exactly what to look out for.
And the rich, well they buy knockoffs themselves. The thing is, people know they are rich for eg, stay in GCB and drive in Bentleys, so even if they use fake, people will still think they are genuine.
And the middle class if stay in HDB, even if they buy genuine Hermes, people will still think they are fake :)
Too complicated... keep it simple.
Refer to first post in this thread.....:)
I agree, use URA index
Unfortunately, some people, like Teddybear find faults with URA index.
so another fellow suggested use 3 to compare.
Wild Falcon
18-12-10, 11:48
The problem is not everyone judge everything by a badge right? There are people who look at the real quality of a product without needing to look at the badge. As long as i like something, it really doesn't matter it carries a mainstream well know badge like "Prada" or an obscure local designer because I'm not going to judge it PURELY by the badge or district number. I will also look at the surroundings and the real quality of the project, for instance a suburban condo like Carelbelle with its 3.4m ceiling vs Park Infinia with HDB 2.7m ceiling. Yes, maybe Park Infinia has a nicer sounding D11 badge, but quality wise, it can be nferior if one has a keen eye. I always believe if one is comfortable with himself, then the need for a badge becomes less important and he/she will look at real quality of life, whatever that means to him/her. Just like the world's billionaires almost always stay in the suburbs. Anyway, I believe what bargain hunter suggested is fair. Just one year later, whether Park infinia's premium over Carabelle will increase or decrease. That is when we will know whether the perceived prestige will increase or decrease.
Those who know their brands well and have been able to afford buying them, will be able to tell. Those who are not able to afford this type of experience cannot tell any difference and need not tell because they shouldn't be considered in this picture. Similarly, those who can tell a good grade condo in a good location and expensive area can tell the difference between that apartment and another one in the suburb. Those who cannot afford either, shouldn't even come in to try to justify the price gap.
.....
Just like the world's billionaires almost always stay in the suburbs
....
Generally they stay in expensive location, regardless of city centre or suburbs.
.....
The favourite of PRC are Gucci and LV, because the logo everywhere, cannot miss one. Their thinking is, since spend money liao, must show off until gao pun. Something like teddybear logic like that, you know.
.....
BTW, Teddybear wear Casio watch and normal shirts. He is only interested in branded and quality plumbing for the house.
Wild Falcon
18-12-10, 12:11
Affluent suburbs. Warren Buffet is not even affluent area.These suburbs are pretty far from the city center. Singapore also has its affluent suburbs - those freehold belts upstream with landed and mainly private enclave.
And I have said, once you're there. The need to validate your worth with a badge becomes less important. That's why only the PRCs walk around with the Prada and LV logos. The discerning mix and match - the occasional flea market buys vs high street brands vs the likes of "Pradas". I have a bad that is a $16 flea market buy - and I have people asking me where you buy this unique piece of gem? Style and self confidence cannot be bought. You can live in D11 condo and wear big mainstream logos like Prada from head to toe, and can still look tardy.
In any case, absolute prices have coverged so much (I don't mean PSF because new suburban units are much larger in size in general compared to prime condos), the perceived "prestige" is disappearing. I fact, it's now seen as quite cool to be living/hanging out in a ulu location, far from the madding crowd. I short, it's no longer cool to say "My favourite haunt is Orchard Road", instead my fave hangout is "obscure exotic location" is more cool now :cool:
Generally they stay in expensive location, regardless of city centre or suburbs.
Wild Falcon
18-12-10, 12:30
delete. double post
......
In any case, absolute prices have coverged so much (I don't mean PSF because new suburban units are much larger in size in general compared to prime condos), the perceived "prestige" is disappearing. I fact, it's now seen as quite cool to be living/hanging out in a ulu location, far from the madding crowd. I short, it's no longer cool to say "My favourite haunt is Orchard Road", instead my fave hangout is "obscure exotic location" is more cool now :cool:
Warren Buffet is odd one out. Same with Mr Sim Wong Hoo, stay in HDB and drive Corolla.
But for every Warren Buffet, there will a Mukesh Ambani and his $1billion house. The majority will be more like Laksmi Mittal in his 70million pound home in central London or HK richies in Victoria.
The affluent will congregrate in the same area.
Youngsters may find it cool to stay in their own pad in exotic locations like Lim Chu Kang for example? But the old monied, their parents well, stay in prime area. See where the old money is - that is usually the prime area.
Style and self confidence can be bought or at the very least groomed. The first generation rich are usually crass. The 2nd generation would be genteel already.
huh new suburban condos bigger than prime Orchard properties? is there OCR, RCR condos with majority of units greater than 2000sf?
Sorry not familiart with OCR, RCR condos.
actually, i think the outperformers will come from both CCR and OCR, and it's the resale CCR and OCR that will outperform the new launches.
Almost all new OCR launches have 3bd smaller than 1300 sqft, including the usual excesses. OCR has a 1.5m absolute price barrier that's hard to break. Best example, keppel land's jurong project.
Some forumers have this real strange idea that whoever staying in CCR is doing so to wear a badge. Despite numerous posts telling him otherwise. Like the value of precious time saved daily. And the value of privacy and quietness. It's almost, really almost, like sour grape. There is nothing wrong in OCR. Neither is in CCR. But why CCR price is higher is no more complex than why manhattan prices are higher than queens, or HK island prices are higher than New Territory. The rich and the powerful, as if it sounds so strange to some, do really stay together in areas that are not OCR :cool: where do u think UOB's Wees stay ? Or the Lees ? Or the Qweks ?
Investment in OCR has its appeal, so is CCR. But the 2 are quite different segments. Like how u play penny stocks and blue chips. There is money to be made in either segment.
bargain hunter
18-12-10, 15:54
URA index is fine but a tad boring as it is updated only once every 3 months. and given that's the case, do we start with Q4 index to be announced at the end of Jan or the Q3 index which was already announced in Oct?
the Park Infinia vs Carabelle one keeps things interesting with a real life straight fight. btw, i think last 10 transactions up to 18th Dec 2011 caveat day is better than top 10psf just in case the market peaks before that hahaha. ;) Carabelle wins if the gap is less than 91% and vice versa.
I agree, use URA index
Unfortunately, some people, like Teddybear find faults with URA index.
so another fellow suggested use 3 to compare.
I like duchess residences vs. carabelle. it you guys use this pair for your wager, carabelle is sure to win. duchess residences is a sure loser.
Ok add one more, duchess residences v carabelle. :) u happy ?
Let's see duchess residences last 10 prices.. Not much, like 1700 ?
Carabelle 950 is it ?
Btw sometimes I wonder any bank creative enough to do pty forward ;)
bargain hunter
18-12-10, 16:04
duchess dun even have 10 transactions leh, how to fight? :confused:
Ok add one more, duchess residences v carabelle. :) u happy ?
Let's see duchess residences last 10 prices.. Not much, like 1700 ?
Carabelle 950 is it ?
Btw sometimes I wonder any bank creative enough to do pty forward ;)
bargain hunter
18-12-10, 16:14
ok, just for stalin, amk and myself's hobbies:
Duchess last 6 transactions (apr to Sep 2010) average is 1708. Carabelle is 952. Premium is 79.4%.
duchess dun even have 10 transactions leh, how to fight? :confused:
Aiya use the last 5 lor. Since it has less units so sure less liquidity.
The other strong OCR supporter, why not nominate your favorite D21 project ? So it will be 2 CCR against 2 OCR. Fun right ? :)
Of course for more serious comparism we do the usual PPI. That's very easy. Pull out 2 number only.
The actual project fight is more fun indeed :)
You can tell the difference between synthetic and natural diamond using naked eye? or even with 10x scope? wow. even experienced and trained gemonologist are fooled. Of course, now DeBeers have provided them the equipment to differentiate.
Anyway, there are grades of knockoff.
The best is those from the workshops that made the genuine products themselves. Those fashion houses, they outsource the production to workshop for say 1000 handbags. The workshops produce 1300 pieces instead, Excess 300 they sell to a fence. Cost of production for a fashion goods is miniscule compared to the selling price.
Apart from those workshops, Grade A stuff are hard to differentiate also. You have to know exactly what to look out for.
And the rich, well they buy knockoffs themselves. The thing is, people know they are rich for eg, stay in GCB and drive in Bentleys, so even if they use fake, people will still think they are genuine.
And the middle class if stay in HDB, even if they buy genuine Hermes, people will still think they are fake :)
It is a different type of comparison that I was referring to. If you are going to the details of distinguishing real and fake or good grade diamonds, then you might as well ask if I can tell the month a tree was chopped to make the oak for the flooring of the apartments or if a construction worker really mixed his cement better for a luxury condo versus a suburban one. I am just sharing how I feel about the difference in a good class condo versus a mass market condo (i stay in a mass market one, but I would like to stay in an upscale one someday). The premium we pay for condos often goes to many items - more unique facilities, better view, address, location, surrounding shops, mrt, etc. Quite often the project's fame or popularity also makes a difference. Really quite like wearing a badge.
The problem is not everyone judge everything by a badge right? There are people who look at the real quality of a product without needing to look at the badge. As long as i like something, it really doesn't matter it carries a mainstream well know badge like "Prada" or an obscure local designer because I'm not going to judge it PURELY by the badge or district number. I will also look at the surroundings and the real quality of the project, for instance a suburban condo like Carelbelle with its 3.4m ceiling vs Park Infinia with HDB 2.7m ceiling. Yes, maybe Park Infinia has a nicer sounding D11 badge, but quality wise, it can be nferior if one has a keen eye. I always believe if one is comfortable with himself, then the need for a badge becomes less important and he/she will look at real quality of life, whatever that means to him/her. Just like the world's billionaires almost always stay in the suburbs. Anyway, I believe what bargain hunter suggested is fair. Just one year later, whether Park infinia's premium over Carabelle will increase or decrease. That is when we will know whether the perceived prestige will increase or decrease.
in future new price denominator will be pcf - price per cubic feet - makes sense to count in volume since you are living in it anyways...
in future new price denominator will be pcf - price per cubic feet - makes sense to count in volume since you are living in it anyways...
I believe it won't be long before we become a bit like NYC. We may start seeing small one-unit apartments in prime locations with common bathrooms to share with your neighbours!
stalingrad
18-12-10, 19:50
Aiya use the last 5 lor. Since it has less units so sure less liquidity.
The other strong OCR supporter, why not nominate your favorite D21 project ? So it will be 2 CCR against 2 OCR. Fun right ? :)
Of course for more serious comparism we do the usual PPI. That's very easy. Pull out 2 number only.
The actual project fight is more fun indeed :)
I will sleep soundly in 12 months ahead, knowing I am going to win the bet. I cannot foresee any situation where the gap between dp or pi with carabelle will widen. just no way.
kingkong1984
18-12-10, 19:55
I believe it won't be long before we become a bit like NYC. We may start seeing small one-unit apartments in prime locations with common bathrooms to share with your neighbours!
Exactly, back to school days. If we push it further, the room is purely for sleeping.
bargain hunter
19-12-10, 07:57
ok, i used last 6 caveats for the DR vs Carabelle.
U asking Wild Falcon to pick one from D21/D23? but actually that area has been quiet in terms of completions from 2007 to 2009 in terms of major projects. Maybe Park Natura vs Duchess Resi is a good comparison since sizes are similar and both are completing soon? :D
Projects comparison fun! :luke-and-darth: but more for pple like us who r too free hahaha.
Aiya use the last 5 lor. Since it has less units so sure less liquidity.
The other strong OCR supporter, why not nominate your favorite D21 project ? So it will be 2 CCR against 2 OCR. Fun right ? :)
Of course for more serious comparism we do the usual PPI. That's very easy. Pull out 2 number only.
The actual project fight is more fun indeed :)
Wild Falcon
19-12-10, 21:38
As I've said numerous times, different people ascribe a different premium to the badge. The question is whether the premium will increase or decrease. We can argue until the cow come home. The actual numbers will tell the truth one year later. Just like due to your lack of affiliation, you will pay a huge premium to get your child witihin 1km of whatever "elite" school. But others with affiliation need NOT do that anymore because even if they stay 5km away from the elite school, their children can still get in by virtue of their parent's affiliation. tio bo?
I hope you and Teddybear can finally one day understand - not everyone needs to be within 1km of whatever school to get their children into that school. There is such a thing called affiliation. That is when the world is their oyster and they can choose live where they wanna live without that limitation. in addition, many of us are already buying 3rd property or more. The need to diversify and find new frontier areas is important in order to achieve supernormal returns.
As to your desire to live amongst the "wees" or the "lees" - that is your personal preference. You can't assume everyone like to drop names about this or that person is living in my "district". That's quite amusing, Anyway, a 1000sq ft condo within the same district is a far cry from a GCB. Dropping names is not gonna impress anyone other than yourself.
Almost all new OCR launches have 3bd smaller than 1300 sqft, including the usual excesses. OCR has a 1.5m absolute price barrier that's hard to break. Best example, keppel land's jurong project.
Some forumers have this real strange idea that whoever staying in CCR is doing so to wear a badge. Despite numerous posts telling him otherwise. Like the value of precious time saved daily. And the value of privacy and quietness. It's almost, really almost, like sour grape. There is nothing wrong in OCR. Neither is in CCR. But why CCR price is higher is no more complex than why manhattan prices are higher than queens, or HK island prices are higher than New Territory. The rich and the powerful, as if it sounds so strange to some, do really stay together in areas that are not OCR :cool: where do u think UOB's Wees stay ? Or the Lees ? Or the Qweks ?
Investment in OCR has its appeal, so is CCR. But the 2 are quite different segments. Like how u play penny stocks and blue chips. There is money to be made in either segment.
Aiyo wild, u quoted me the full post, where did I mention anything abt 1km ? The 1km thing was specific to another forumer's thread, who I understand was from a boy school therefore has a practical need. And u practically say he has no life as "everything is dictated by wife and kid".
Name dropping ? No this is no name dropping. When u started saying who and who is the richest and yet stays at suburb, u dun realize u r "name dropping"? Probably not. U r trying to prove a point. So do I. The other former earlier on dropped more names to prove the same point too : yes the majority of the rich do stay in certain areas.
In any case this is not really relevant to the discussion. U see, ppl like Stalingrad do not believe in CCR as a good investment. His main point is basically whole of SG is kind of CCR and everywhere is convenient so there should not have such large price gap. Well I may not agree with him, but at least this is a meaningful discussion. On the other hand, you simply detest anything in CCR. U really have these strange belief that anyone owning or investing in CCR is either snobbish, dying to show off, "to wear a badge", etc. Well i suppose this is kind of "inception" deeply rooted in you, so Let's just rest the case here.
So, do u take the Park Natura vs. Duchess Residences fight or not ?
Or u want to pick another one ? I remember u like hill vista
after reading the threads , i cant help but find that many OCR supports tag pple who buy CCR as pple whom are stupid, paying more psf for lousy developement, or pple with ego problem, buy badge/prestige, or some even go to the extend bet $$$ to prove their point that they got better foresight.
There are someone whom also post things like some condo look like worker's quarters......
Lets be more gracious as u are talking about someone's home. Pple may have work their socks to upgrade to their dream home for their family. While u are successful in your own right, it is also nice to have some basic courtesy.
OCR pls huat huat big time. Best is chong to $2000 psf. All the best :)
I find it really strange some people have to resort to all means to justify that there is no need to spend so much more money to buy CCR properties. In all your posts, it is always about money. I just don't understand - Are those extra money spent much more valuable than giving your family a better and more convenient place to live in? If people like us are not even bothered with spending those money, why should you be bothered to the extend of calling people "stupid" etc?
Back to school again - say I get my child into the school through affiliation though I live 15km away from the school, so? After that you expect me to see my child spending >2 hours on the road everyday? See them wake up at 5am everyday, return home at about 3 pm then can eat lunch? Is your money more important than the well-being of your children? This is not so for me so I rather spend the extra money on the property. If money is more important to you than providing better life for your family members, fine, you can keep your money but you do not have to broadcast for everyone here to know that you value money more than your family (as though that is very honorable?) and there is no need to demand everybody to be like you. :tongue3:
As I've said numerous times, different people ascribe a different premium to the badge. The question is whether the premium will increase or decrease. We can argue until the cow come home. The actual numbers will tell the truth one year later. Just like due to your lack of affiliation, you will pay a huge premium to get your child witihin 1km of whatever "elite" school. But others with affiliation need NOT do that anymore because even if they stay 5km away from the elite school, their children can still get in by virtue of their parent's affiliation. tio bo?
I hope you and Teddybear can finally one day understand - not everyone needs to be within 1km of whatever school to get their children into that school. There is such a thing called affiliation. That is when the world is their oyster and they can choose live where they wanna live without that limitation. in addition, many of us are already buying 3rd property or more. The need to diversify and find new frontier areas is important in order to achieve supernormal returns.
As to your desire to live amongst the "wees" or the "lees" - that is your personal preference. You can't assume everyone like to drop names about this or that person is living in my "district". That's quite amusing, Anyway, a 1000sq ft condo within the same district is a far cry from a GCB. Dropping names is not gonna impress anyone other than yourself.
nobrainer32007
20-12-10, 07:44
A lot of dumb logic and people in this forum..... But good to read just for fun.
I find it really strange some people have to resort to all means to justify that there is no need to spend so much more money to buy CCR properties. In all your posts, it is always about money. I just don't understand - Are those extra money spent much more valuable than giving your family a better and more convenient place to live in? If people like us are not even bothered with spending those money, why should you be bothered to the extend of calling people "stupid" etc?
Back to school again - say I get my child into the school through affiliation though I live 15km away from the school, so? After that you expect me to see my child spending >2 hours on the road everyday? See them wake up at 5am everyday, return home at about 3 pm then can eat lunch? Is your money more important than the well-being of your children? This is not so for me so I rather spend the extra money on the property. If money is more important to you than providing better life for your family members, fine, you can keep your money but you do not have to broadcast for everyone here to know that you value money more than your family (as though that is very honorable?) and there is no need to demand everybody to be like you. :tongue3:
there is an English proverb:
"Birds of the same feather flock together".
Those who stay in CCR, as in traditional D9,D10,D11 are a certain kind.
Those who stay in OCR, are another kind.
As to the whole of Singapore being CCR because of connectivity etc, then perhaps the Chief Valuer is correct to value all of Singapore to have the potential to be Raffles Place :)
watch out, HDB flats are going to increase again!
there is another English proverb:
"One swallow doesn't make a summer".
Just because an eccentric rich stay in OCR or suburb, doesn't make OCR the same as CCR.
Yes, you don't call a rich person with unsound mind crazy, the proper term is eccentric. The proper term for poor person with unsound mind is crazy or lunatic.
actually I am interested to hear WildFalcon's definition of CCR?
Is it traditional prime areas of D9,D10,D11 , and excluding MM units?
Large size units and high psf?
Because CCR have cheap developments also.
Wild Falcon
20-12-10, 10:03
As I've said, there is a premium, is whether the premium will increase or decrease right? I just believe with increased connectivity, the premium will narrow. It has happened last year and will continue to do so as new areas get developed. It's the same concept as developing nations growing at a faster pace than developed nations, which struggle to grow (if at all).
As i always believe, widen your horizons. Some people only travel to certain destinations. Others like more exotic vacation spots, even if it means it doesn't have the similar large scale "brand name" hotels. Some people only invest in developed nations while others diversify into developing countries/localities. It takes more guts to be unconventional. I just believe those $600-800psf OCRs/RCRs near MRT or future MRT, has a higher potential upside today than those $2000psf CCR properties. Remember, a $600psf property just need to become $720psf to achieve a 20% return. Whereas a Glynderbourne at $2300psf needs to go up to $2800psf to achieve the same return - what r the surrounding condos trading at? I would rather place my bet on the former than the latter.
And Singapore has 27 (?) districts, why does one has to restrict their investments or scope to only 3-4 districts? 5,12,13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19 ,20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25,26,27 etc. - there r so many choices and undervalued gems still do exist, why confine yourself within a box? If one is buying investment property, returns is the #1 critera - not prestige anymore (since I'm not living there). I believe those harping about prestige or and living amongst "Lees" is still looking at PRIMARY residence right? Then the motivation from others looking to invest in more properties is very different.
there is an English proverb:
"Birds of the same feather flock together".
Those who stay in CCR, as in traditional D9,D10,D11 are a certain kind.
Those who stay in OCR, are another kind.
As to the whole of Singapore being CCR because of connectivity etc, then perhaps the Chief Valuer is correct to value all of Singapore to have the potential to be Raffles Place :)
watch out, HDB flats are going to increase again!
there is another English proverb:
"One swallow doesn't make a summer".
Just because an eccentric rich stay in OCR or suburb, doesn't make OCR the same as CCR.
Yes, you don't call a rich person with unsound mind crazy, the proper term is eccentric. The proper term for poor person with unsound mind is crazy or lunatic.
As I've said, there is a premium, is whether the premium will increase or decrease right? I just believe with increased connectivity, the premium will narrow. It has happened last year and will continue to do so as new areas get developed. It's the same concept as developing nations growing at a faster pace than developed nations, which struggle to grow (if at all).
As i always believe, widen your horizons. Some people only travel to certain destinations. Others like more exotic vacation spots, even if it means it doesn't have the similar large scale "brand name" hotels. Some people only invest in developed nations while others diversify into developing countries/localities. It takes more guts to be unconventional. I just believe those $600-800psf OCRs/RCRs near MRT or future MRT, has a higher potential upside today than those $2000psf CCR properties. Remember, a $600psf property just need to become $720psf to achieve a 20% return. Whereas a Glynderbourne at $2300psf needs to go up to $2800psf to achieve the same return - what r the surrounding condos trading at? I would rather place my bet on the former than the latter.
And Singapore has 27 (?) districts, why does one has to restrict their investments or scope to only 3-4 districts? 5,12,13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19 ,20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25,26,27 etc. - there r so many choices and undervalued gems still do exist, why confine yourself within a box? If one is buying investment property, returns is the #1 critera - not prestige anymore (since I'm not living there). I believe those harping about prestige or and living amongst "Lees" is still looking at PRIMARY residence right? Then the motivation from others looking to invest in more properties is very different.
The key factor here is 'growth potential' so if the OCR property is near a future MRT, its growth potential is definitely more than a CCR property near malls/MRTs that are already operational. However, some properties continue to appreciate no matter what, because of their proximity to some schools that parents want their children to be enrolled in (also because they don't have the affiliation) - ACS primary and junior schools for instance. The other factor for consideration is rental yield and ability. 1 mil can probably get you a 3-bedroom 99-yr leasehold apartment in Pasir Ris compared with a 1-bedroom freehold condo in River Valley. Which is easier to attract tenants?
As I've said, there is a premium, is whether the premium will increase or decrease right? I just believe with increased connectivity, the premium will narrow. It has happened last year and will continue to do so as new areas get developed. It's the same concept as developing nations growing at a faster pace than developed nations, which struggle to grow (if at all).
.........
Regarding the calculation that I agree.
On paper, it is logical to assume that it easier for OCR to gain 20% rather than for CCR to gain 20%.
However, what does history show?
in 1980, 1990,2000,2010, what were the gap between OCR and CCR?
Where is JLRX when you need him? JLRX could probably give the newspaper cuttings of prices at those times.
Perhaps we can use HDB as extreme example:
In 1980, 1 GCB can buy how many HDB?
In 2010, 1 GCB can buy how many HDB?
Regarding the calculation that I agree.
On paper, it is logical to assume that it easier for OCR to gain 20% rather than for CCR to gain 20%.
However, what does history show?
in 1980, 1990,2000,2010, what were the gap between OCR and CCR?
Where is JLRX when you need him? JLRX could probably give the newspaper cuttings of prices at those times.
Perhaps we can use HDB as extreme example:
In 1980, 1 GCB can buy how many HDB?
In 2010, 1 GCB can buy how many HDB?
JLRX busy selling his properties :p
Regulators
20-12-10, 13:42
havent seen jlrx in a while. Has he stopped his preachings on propertism?
JLRX busy selling his properties :p
havent seen jlrx in a while. Has he stopped his preachings on propertism?
Hard to pitch when you don't do what you advocate I guess...
Regulators
20-12-10, 13:48
so he has become the prodigal some of his own religion lol
Hard to pitch when you don't do what you advocate I guess...
so he has become the prodigal some of his own religion lol
He was first to disappear when cooling measures were announced in August
He's also a big fan of mickeymousation - maybe his holding power ran out LOL
He was first to disappear when cooling measures were announced in August
He's also a big fan of mickeymousation - maybe his holding power ran out LOL
These 3 has disappeared, Property Owner, Jlrx, Reporter.
Don't tell me Property Owner also has no holding power?? or Property Owner is the MD of seafood distributor who lost $26mil?
Anyway, very much unlikely that Jlrx has no holding power. Interest rates didn't go up, it went down in fact after cooling measures. And his properties are all cheap, like his 10 properties are worth less than 1 Aadmore Park condo. Curioser and curioser.
These 3 has disappeared, Property Owner, Jlrx, Reporter.
Don't tell me Property Owner also has no holding power?? or Property Owner is the MD of seafood distributor who lost $26mil?
Anyway, very much unlikely that Jlrx has no holding power. Interest rates didn't go up, it went down in fact after cooling measures. And his properties are all cheap, like his 10 properties are worth less than 1 Aadmore Park condo. Curioser and curioser.
Property owner wasn't very active in the first place.
Are you jlrx? :D
That will be interesting...
Property owner wasn't very active in the first place.
Are you jlrx? :D
That will be interesting...
Oh goodness gracious me, I am suffering from a multiple personality disorder:D
As I've said numerous times, different people ascribe a different premium to the badge. The question is whether the premium will increase or decrease. We can argue until the cow come home. The actual numbers will tell the truth one year later. Just like due to your lack of affiliation, you will pay a huge premium to get your child witihin 1km of whatever "elite" school. But others with affiliation need NOT do that anymore because even if they stay 5km away from the elite school, their children can still get in by virtue of their parent's affiliation. tio bo?
I hope you and Teddybear can finally one day understand - not everyone needs to be within 1km of whatever school to get their children into that school. There is such a thing called affiliation. That is when the world is their oyster and they can choose live where they wanna live without that limitation. in addition, many of us are already buying 3rd property or more. The need to diversify and find new frontier areas is important in order to achieve supernormal returns.
As to your desire to live amongst the "wees" or the "lees" - that is your personal preference. You can't assume everyone like to drop names about this or that person is living in my "district". That's quite amusing, Anyway, a 1000sq ft condo within the same district is a far cry from a GCB. Dropping names is not gonna impress anyone other than yourself.
Very interesting debate
Getting a property is like finding a wife. What are the attributes you look for?
Some like long hair (Surrounding with tall buildings)
Some like short hair (Surrounding with nice landscape, no tall buildings)
Some like big eyes (Big balconies)
Some like long legs (Tall trees around house provide good shading)
Some like tall (high level unit)
Some like short & slim (MM unit)
Some like rich girl (Investment potential?)
Some like fat fat one (Big big house)
Some like young girl (new development?)
Some like matured woman (old house/development)
Some has no preference (Can find a wife very happy already) - Something affordable
Some don't care (????) - just want a roof
Can you say who is right or who is wrong? No. There is no right or wrong answer lah. Everyone has their own needs and requirements.
It all starting with individual feelings - so long as you love her & she love you, nobody can stop you. When you like the place, like what you see & touch (love at first sight), you go for it right? I've seen some husband one head shorter than wife and they're very happy together. I've seen some PYT married to a so so looking guy - their choice what.
If have children (including a son) & can live happily forever after, that will be nice & ideal. (Good Investment)
If divorce also can't help (bank ask for top up, no money to pay).
Wife can't bear child (no investment growth), but you still love her so who cares.
If (touchwood) wife unfortunately got seriously ill/gone forever (market crash). Life still need to goes on.
Want to marry multiple wives (own mulitple properties), government & most religion don't allow you too unless you're muslim with T&C (cooling measures in placed). Some invest in other countries to cover up illegal money (bao er nai).
Even experience investor can made wrong decision. So need to sell to cut loss and re-invest. (divorce and married another one).
Goes through your own SWAT analysis first before you make the final decision.
Above is just my personal view. Do not believe completely in what I wrote. Take it with a pinch of salt. If you don't like what I wrote - just whack. Í'll not throw a punch back.
BTW, Christmas is just around the corner. A Merry Christmas to everyone here.
Very interesting debate
Getting a property is like finding a wife. What are the attributes you look for?
Some like long hair (Surrounding with tall buildings)
Some like short hair (Surrounding with nice landscape, no tall buildings)
Some like big eyes (Big balconies)
Some like long legs (Tall trees around house provide good shading)
Some like tall (high level unit)
Some like short & slim (MM unit)
Some like rich girl (Investment potential?)
Some like fat fat one (Big big house)
Some like young girl (new development?)
Some like matured woman (old house/development)
Some has no preference (Can find a wife very happy already) - Something affordable
Some don't care (????) - just want a roof
Can you say who is right or who is wrong? No. There is no right or wrong answer lah. Everyone has their own needs and requirements.
It all starting with individual feelings - so long as you love her & she love you, nobody can stop you. When you like the place, like what you see & touch (love at first sight), you go for it right? I've seen some husband one head shorter than wife and they're very happy together. I've seen some PYT married to a so so looking guy - their choice what.
If have children (including a son) & can live happily forever after, that will be nice & ideal. (Good Investment)
If divorce also can't help (bank ask for top up, no money to pay).
Wife can't bear child (no investment growth), but you still love her so who cares.
If (touchwood) wife unfortunately got seriously ill/gone forever (market crash). Life still need to goes on.
Want to marry multiple wives (own mulitple properties), government & most religion don't allow you too unless you're muslim with T&C (cooling measures in placed). Some invest in other countries to cover up illegal money (bao er nai).
Even experience investor can made wrong decision. So need to sell to cut loss and re-invest. (divorce and married another one).
Goes through your own SWAT analysis first before you make the final decision.
Above is just my personal view. Do not believe completely in what I wrote. Take it with a pinch of salt. If you don't like what I wrote - just whack. Í'll not throw a punch back.
BTW, Christmas is just around the corner. A Merry Christmas to everyone here.
Oops. Should be SWOT not SWAT.
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