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A penchant for shoebox housing
by Ong Kah Seng
Updated 04:21 PM Dec 17, 2010
Gone are the days where size matters for home seekers. Smaller apartments are making their presence. In the public housing sector, 3-room and studio flats have been re-introduced in new Build-to-Order HDB projects, while new private residential offerings seem to be increasingly smaller, yet popular.
Colloquially referred to as "Mickey Mouse" or "shoebox" apartments, there has been an increased demand for such residential units. The year 2007 saw a spike in sales of units smaller than 500 sq ft, from an almost inexistence to 325 units.
The story continued from there, to 883 transactions last year. While it can be argued that last year was a recession year and therefore small apartments found favour among financially cautious buyers, the heightened interest in shoebox units this year seems to confirm the growing penchant for smaller apartments. This year, a total of 1,421 such units have so far been transacted.
Why the popularity?
To examine why shoebox units have become popular, one must look at the private residential sector in the form of sales activity, pricing trends and product offerings in recent times.
The private residential sector has created various market participants who entered and exited at the right time to achieve tidy profits, reflecting success stories from property transactions. This spurred many other aspiring private home buyers to quickly proceed with a purchase.
However, while one recognises the opportunity from property investments, there are often limitations in one's financing capabilities. Gaining entry into the property game is but a dream unless one has accumulated sufficient funds to make a purchase.
Shoebox apartments are hence a feasible option for interested participants who find it increasingly difficult to own a sizeable piece of private property as prices have continued to escalate. For one, the upfront capital and overall cost of shoebox apartments are smaller and more affordable.
For another, the cost of a shoebox apartment will at most be comparable to that of a larger HDB flat. For a private residential property owner, there is more flexibility in home ownership and re-selling his unit.
Developers who saw this trend were quick in pushing out such projects amid the scarcity. The response has been encouraging and the resale demand for such properties has further reflected the overwhelming interest.
Understanding Challenges
Potential buyers of shoebox apartments need to know that the tenant base for such housing is more restricted than ordinary apartments. Prospective tenants are likely to have significant budget constraints and are often either local professionals or junior expatriates on partial housing allowances.
Some of these tenants may also prefer an HDB flat as it is more spacious for a rent that is lower than that of a shoebox apartment. Companies are unlikely to accommodate upper-middle and senior expatriates in shoebox apartments, who have specific housing requirements. A shoebox apartment will not reflect well on the company, which may in turn affect career and relocation decisions.
Also, living in a shoebox apartment may not be entirely cost effective. Some occupiers may find that there are limited activities within the confined space and prefer hanging out, incurring more entertainment expenses. The real costs of living may be higher than expected.
Relevance for shoebox apartments
Although there are challenges in investments, it does not necessarily reduce the appeal of shoebox apartments. As home buyers are becoming cautious and refraining from buying apartments beyond their reach, shoebox apartments can be smaller, realistic purchases that minimise liquidity risks. Buyers are also able to channel the rest of their funds to other areas, such as travel or enrichment programmes.
There is a potential for shoebox apartments to become more popular among homebuyers. Small sized apartments are common in major cities in the world where properties are costly.
With Singaporeans increasingly exposed to overseas city living, many may become more open to living in confined premises so long as there is privacy and an opportunity to host small gatherings.
The success of the new developments can also potentially create a structural shift in housing preferences and living patterns.
Perhaps a key merit of shoebox apartments for investors is that the tenant does not have to share an apartment with others, including strangers and acquaintances. This minimises friction arising from different lifestyles among occupiers.
Shoebox apartments are also effective solutions to singles who may find regular size housing beyond their means. A single can only buy an HDB resale flat if he or she is at least 35 years old.
Shoebox apartments offer privacy for singles who are not only financially independent but are long psychologically ready for independent living.
A shoebox apartment, in this case, will be bought for owner occupation rather than for pure investment.
Consider the option carefully
The fact is that hardly any property can offer the perfect fit. A cost-effective property usually cannot provide the maximum benefit from both investment potential and capital appreciation standpoints. What is essential for a buyer is to be clear about the motivation in the property purchase - is it for investment or owner occupation?
When prudence is exercised in the home-buying decision, a shoebox apartment can be a worthwhile purchase, offering the opportunity to enjoy privacy and a potential for capital appreciation in sync with the sustained economic recovery.
The writer is senior manager, Research at Cushman & Wakefield.
Regulators
27-12-10, 17:54
it will be interesting when all the MM units start to TOP. I think mediacorp can shoot reality TV in some of the MM homes and see how people actually live in it. I think suites@ Guillamard has to be a potential candidate.
devilplate
27-12-10, 18:08
it will be interesting when all the MM units start to TOP. I think mediacorp can shoot reality TV in some of the MM homes and see how people actually live in it. I think suites@ Guillamard has to be a potential candidate.
oredi got projects TOP wat?
so many....3xxsqft ones...
4xxsqft is BIG oredi..LOL
I guess the owners will get sick of them after a while... especially at the pathetic size of the gym and swimming pool of most MM units. I would enjoy MM when I retire, as they require less effort to maintain the whole house.
I guess the owners will get sick of them after a while... especially at the pathetic size of the gym and swimming pool of most MM units. I would enjoy MM when I retire, as they require less effort to maintain the whole house.
i think it depends on the size of the project - if mainly big sized ones with a stack for MM i think that is best (the MM owner gain as he has equal rights to use the facilities)
even half normal sized units and half MM also ok
but if mostly MMs...uh-oh...:scared-3:
MMs should enjoy rental from foreign students with upper middle-class parents who want to give their kids privacy yet can't afford a full-fledged condo unit
MM is also good for singles below 35 who cannot buy hdb and cannot afford to buy proper sized condo. :(
But how to live in such a small space? Only slightly better than a hotel room and we all know how hard it is to live out of a suitcase after a few days...
I agree that in my old age I would like to live in a compact apartment but I would think that 600sq ft would be the minimum.
Even that would mean throwing out all my books, CDs, pets, furniture etc etc.
Unlike many, I do like a balcony where I can sit and relax or hang laundry or sun my duvet or whatever.
Planter boxes also have their uses; my friend who lives at Suites @ Marne needs the space (wooden strips in place of course) to drip-dry her laundry.
I don't like bay windows but at least they are slowly dying out now.
can squeeze. anyone watch last nite's renovaid? 11pax in a 2 bedrm 3RM flat. go contact the ID - he prob can squeeze 5pax and a dog into a MM
can squeeze. anyone watch last nite's renovaid? 11pax in a 2 bedrm 3RM flat. go contact the ID - he prob can squeeze 5pax and a dog into a MM
I was in a mall not too long ago and there was a roadshow where they showed how a study table could be easily converted into a full single bed - you can even leave your glass of water on the table and rotate the bed on top and not a single drop will spill (and the table top will be hidden underneath) - rather impressive.
And so was the price - at $2400. However it seems to be targeting the MM and smaller unit households - I guess the business owner saw the trend of space-consciousness coming with the smaller units nowadays. With this smart piece of furniture you won't need a separate study room....
Perhaps they should sell MMs with these smart furniture - Transformer Studios - Rise of the MMs...
500 sqft unit with China's capsule housing methodology can squeeze 8? :p
can squeeze. anyone watch last nite's renovaid? 11pax in a 2 bedrm 3RM flat. go contact the ID - he prob can squeeze 5pax and a dog into a MM
Regulators
27-12-10, 21:49
the ultimate one is the 2xxsf unit at guillemard. i am waiting for that one to TOP, will drive down to see who is living there
oredi got projects TOP wat?
so many....3xxsqft ones...
4xxsqft is BIG oredi..LOL
the ultimate one is the 2xxsf unit at guillemard. i am waiting for that one to TOP, will drive down to see who is living there
That is about the size of my bedroom with bathroom! Maybe the kitchen is nothing more than just a toaster on the cabinet.
I can bet my prediction about common bathroom will come true in the near future.
I was in a mall not too long ago and there was a roadshow where they showed how a study table could be easily converted into a full single bed - you can even leave your glass of water on the table and rotate the bed on top and not a single drop will spill (and the table top will be hidden underneath) - rather impressive.
And so was the price - at $2400. However it seems to be targeting the MM and smaller unit households - I guess the business owner saw the trend of space-consciousness coming with the smaller units nowadays. With this smart piece of furniture you won't need a separate study room....
Perhaps they should sell MMs with these smart furniture - Transformer Studios - Rise of the MMs...
Bro, "rise of the machines" was T3 la... Showcasing the AP ROO T3 limited edition
Why MM get so much additional press coverage recently? Most are talking them down. Remember the saying... Run away from where the crowd is and go where the people fear to tread. In thing now is mass market condos at above 1200psf and enbloc sales. Run!
Bro, "rise of the machines" was T3 la... Showcasing the AP ROO T3 limited edition
haha goes to show how high my hollywood IQ is :doh: -should be Transformers, Return of the MMs? thanks for correction :)
Out thing now is high crime JB property, RM 500K+ is all you need. Will you grab?
Thanks,
Richard
also soon, we will also have pencil projects like in HK
They can be found in river valley and novena.
also soon, we will also have pencil projects like in HK
Wild Falcon
28-12-10, 11:42
Are you sure? The "in-thing" that most experts are asking people to buy are "luxury condos" above $2500psf. Most press coverage are negative on suburban condos.
Why MM get so much additional press coverage recently? Most are talking them down. Remember the saying... Run away from where the crowd is and go where the people fear to tread. In thing now is mass market condos at above 1200psf and enbloc sales. Run!
Few mths ago, I visited a friend who stays at Imperial Heights 2-bedder. Total size is only ard 550sqft. It has a balcony in living and in master br too! There was even a tiny yard (with door) outside the kitchen to fit a washing machine. Was quite impressed it looks liveable and rather cosy. The smart thing developer did is that the HS is outside the house (shared by the other units), and there is only one common toilet (none in master br). The kitchen is open concept, with "bar counter" lowered to become a dining table to fit 4 chairs.
devilplate
28-12-10, 13:02
Few mths ago, I visited a friend who stays at Imperial Heights 2-bedder. Total size is only ard 550sqft. It has a balcony in living and in master br too! There was even a tiny yard (with door) outside the kitchen to fit a washing machine. Was quite impressed it looks liveable and rather cosy. The smart thing developer did is that the HS is outside the house (shared by the other units), and there is only one common toilet (none in master br). The kitchen is open concept, with "bar counter" lowered to become a dining table to fit 4 chairs.
yea i saw tat layout too....but more like a 1+study to me....the 2nd bedrm too small....
this project build damn fast too....1 yr from foundation to completion....
Are you sure? The "in-thing" that most experts are asking people to buy are "luxury condos" above $2500psf. Most press coverage are negative on suburban condos.
In thing not as in what is preached, but the real market response. Just see the ridiculous performance of Tennery.
Out thing now is high crime JB property, RM 500K+ is all you need. Will you grab?
Thanks,
Richard
Wei... Talk about same channel la... Dont go until 'overseas' market
Or Greenwich, Centro, The Vision, etc. As the going goes, usually 10% of people earns 90% of the money, so quite sure these majority buying so hot sales properties cannot make money right?
In thing not as in what is preached, but the real market response. Just see the ridiculous performance of Tennery.
Or Greenwich, Centro, The Vision, etc. As the going goes, usually 10% of people earns 90% of the money, so quite sure these majority buying so hot sales properties cannot make money right?
can have lots of paper profits :) wait until a lot want to cash out - see whether have enough buyers.
When 90% of the people are buying mass market now, they hope to flip when going to TOP in future to the remaining 10%? :doh:
can have lots of paper profits :) wait until a lot want to cash out - see whether have enough buyers.
devilplate
30-12-10, 09:51
When 90% of the people are buying mass market now, they hope to flip when going to TOP in future to the remaining 10%? :doh:
doesnt make sense to me wor:p
20 years from now, after a few more cycles, then you will understand. Now probably many don't until they have more experience. :p
doesnt make sense to me wor:p
20 years from now, after a few more cycles, then you will understand. Now probably many don't until they have more experience. :p
very expensive education. either in loss opportunities or actual losses :)
Teddybear, don't teach them your kungfu.
If everybody are smart, very difficult to make money.
In Singapore small population and with small % of natives, like only 30% ?, not that many to contribute to the rich.
In Indonesia big population and big % of natives like 95%, so many to help the rich become richer.
In Malaysia, somewhere between Singapore and Indonesia.
What you said is insightful! Many people ever wondered why Indonesia and Malaysia so many rich people (especially the Chinese) whereas Singapore Chinese pale in comparison when Singapore GDP so high, economy so much better blah blah blah? You already give the answer below (10% of the people earns 90% of the money (You can only make money only when you behave like the 10%, not the other 90%!)). :D
very expensive education. either in loss opportunities or actual losses :)
Teddybear, don't teach them your kungfu.
If everybody are smart, very difficult to make money.
In Singapore small population and with small % of natives, like only 30% ?, not that many to contribute to the rich.
In Indonesia big population and big % of natives like 95%, so many to help the rich become richer.
In Malaysia, somewhere between Singapore and Indonesia.
devilplate
30-12-10, 12:58
What you said is insightful! Many people ever wondered why Indonesia and Malaysia so many rich people (especially the Chinese) whereas Singapore Chinese pale in comparison when Singapore GDP so high, economy so much better blah blah blah? You already give the answer below (10% of the people earns 90% of the money (You can only make money only when you behave like the 10%, not the other 90%!)). :D
den shd hoot OCR to flip to the 90% wat....buy CCR flip to 10% nia? haha
Hai, still don't understand? If there are 100% potential OCR buyers and 90% already out there buying, chasing prices to $1300 psf, they can only flip to the remaining 10% yet to buy right? :banghead:
You quote CCR? Seems like out of the 10% potential CCR buyers, only 1% are buying now which is why prices of many CCR condos are still significantly below 2007 peak (don't look at the averages, look at the specific projects, some are still dirt cheap). What does this suggest? Still got chance to buy now and sell to the other 9% who will come out later to buy right? :p
den shd hoot OCR to flip to the 90% wat....buy CCR flip to 10% nia? haha
just wonder
ppl paid sky high prices for MM, eventually, how much they can make, and rent out is still a big question mark.
A decent family will not want the MM, a rich single or well paid professional also will not want MM.
Let's see, two years later, how is going to happen to all these MM.
perhaps below $1,000
devilplate
30-12-10, 13:46
just wonder
ppl paid sky high prices for MM, eventually, how much they can make, and rent out is still a big question mark.
A decent family will not want the MM, a rich single or well paid professional also will not want MM.
Let's see, two years later, how is going to happen to all these MM.
perhaps below $1,000
How abt tight budget singles and couples
How abt tight budget singles and couples
tight budget = HDB :)
tight budget but still want condo status = don't know their own capabilities
devilplate
30-12-10, 14:21
tight budget = HDB :)
tight budget but still want condo status = don't know their own capabilities
Most hdb flats in vy bad condition....gd ones can cost 2k for jus a 3rm flat
How abt tight budget singles and couples
Most hdb flats in vy bad condition....gd ones can cost 2k for jus a 3rm flat
Thought 2k for HDB is about the same for MM unit?
If 2k still expensive, rent HDB rooms.
Beggars can be choosers? :confused:
just wonder
ppl paid sky high prices for MM, eventually, how much they can make, and rent out is still a big question mark.
A decent family will not want the MM, a rich single or well paid professional also will not want MM.
Let's see, two years later, how is going to happen to all these MM.
perhaps below $1,000
Plenty of buyers who actually prefer MM, even for own stay... WHY? Easier to clean, they say. Not everyone can afford weekly part time maid nor burn the whole weekend thoroughly clean the house.
doesnt make sense to me wor:p
Maybe they just hope for long term capital gain (or high rental yield) and not flip?
20 years from now, after a few more cycles, then you will understand. Now probably many don't until they have more experience. :p
I raise hand caveat first my MM experience only from 2006 to date ok... so please don't call me MM guru or wat... but so far so good they have only made me $$$$$$$$$$$
Plenty of buyers who actually prefer MM, even for own stay... WHY? Easier to clean, they say. Not everyone can afford weekly part time maid nor burn the whole weekend thoroughly clean the house.
Think we know why they buy MM for own stay....if can't afford weekly part time maid (how much is that?), are you sure they can afford monthly installments for bigger units?
Does anybody think that people will admit that they want to stay in condo, but can afford only MM?
Dont think so, they will give reasons like above, easier to clean.
or MM owners here will multiple properties, do they themselves stay in MM?
:tsk-tsk: You too direct aren't you? :p
I know people (after growing old and children all left to live on their own, leaving behind the couple) who sell 3000 sqft built-up area landed to stay in a say 1200 sqft condo unit because they say too big to clean, too many maintenance work to do for landed etc, makes sense. But don't think they will buy an MM to stay? What is 1200 sqft vs 500 sqft? (compared to 3000 sqft to 1200 sqft?).
Think we know why they buy MM for own stay....if can't afford weekly part time maid (how much is that?), are you sure they can afford monthly installments for bigger units?
Does anybody think that people will admit that they want to stay in condo, but can afford only MM?
Dont think so, they will give reasons like above, easier to clean.
or MM owners here will multiple properties, do they themselves stay in MM?
:tsk-tsk: You too direct aren't you? :p
I know people (after growing old and children all left to live on their own, leaving behind the couple) who sell 3000 sqft built-up area landed to stay in a say 1200 sqft condo unit because they say too big to clean, too many maintenance work to do for landed etc, makes sense. But don't think they will buy an MM to stay? What is 1200 sqft vs 500 sqft? (compared to 3000 sqft to 1200 sqft?).
What you say makes sense.
The key reason is not too big to clean, but it is too empty in a big house. Furthermore, in a big house which they stayed for a long time, everyday they faced memories, reminders of the kids, old folks will be very very lonely.
Better move to another smaller house, the place not so empty liao.
devilplate
30-12-10, 17:09
Think we know why they buy MM for own stay....if can't afford weekly part time maid (how much is that?), are you sure they can afford monthly installments for bigger units?
Does anybody think that people will admit that they want to stay in condo, but can afford only MM?
Dont think so, they will give reasons like above, easier to clean.
or MM owners here will multiple properties, do they themselves stay in MM?
Dun hf to argue individual preference n lifestyle
to add: can afford is one thing....willing to spend is another thing....
devilplate
30-12-10, 17:15
:tsk-tsk: You too direct aren't you? :p
I know people (after growing old and children all left to live on their own, leaving behind the couple) who sell 3000 sqft built-up area landed to stay in a say 1200 sqft condo unit because they say too big to clean, too many maintenance work to do for landed etc, makes sense. But don't think they will buy an MM to stay? What is 1200 sqft vs 500 sqft? (compared to 3000 sqft to 1200 sqft?).
different level of downgrading....
stay MM can downgrade to 3rm flat.....stay 3bedder condo can downgrade to 1/2bedder.....stay landed down to 3bedder 1200sqft....
devilplate
30-12-10, 17:19
how to explain y some rather spend $$$ on a nice car, bigger hse....whereas some rather stay humble/frugal and use the spare $$ to invest
some prefer to fully paid their hse whereas some prefer to take some loan even though they dun hf to....
some prefer more den 1 kid...while some dun wan to hf kid....
every1 leads different lifestyle/preference/habits...
I do agree that different strokes for different folks.
I don't think you stay in MM right, even though you have many MM.
That's because you bought MMs for investment, rental yield, and cap gain, instead for own stay.
different level of downgrading....
stay MM can downgrade to 3rm flat.....stay 3bedder condo can downgrade to 1/2bedder.....stay landed down to 3bedder 1200sqft....
Stay MM downgrade to 3rm flat? as in when children move out.
You mean to say family of 4, 2 parents, 2 kids stay in MM and when children move out and stay in own pad, parents downgrade to 3 rm flat? :confused:
devilplate
30-12-10, 17:46
I do agree that different strokes for different folks.
I don't think you stay in MM right, even though you have many MM.
That's because you bought MMs for investment, rental yield, and cap gain, instead for own stay.
Stay MM downgrade to 3rm flat? as in when children move out.
You mean to say family of 4, 2 parents, 2 kids stay in MM and when children move out and stay in own pad, parents downgrade to 3 rm flat? :confused:
can be single all the while staying in MM...after retirement...cash out MM and stay in a cheap 3rm flat?
i cannot stay in MM bcoz more den 1 pax in the household
Doesn't make sense lei. :beats-me-man: People downgrade from 3000 sqft to 1200 sqft because too big to clean, too troublesome to maintain etc. What then is the rationale to downgrade from 3 Bedders to 2/1 bedders when the size different is like 1200 sqft to 1000 sqft / 700 sqft except because not enough money so want to free up some money for retirement? The way you say is like this is a personal choice and not because of monetary issue simply doesn't make sense. :p
how to explain y some rather spend $$$ on a nice car, bigger hse....whereas some rather stay humble/frugal and use the spare $$ to invest
some prefer to fully paid their hse whereas some prefer to take some loan even though they dun hf to....
some prefer more den 1 kid...while some dun wan to hf kid....
every1 leads different lifestyle/preference/habits...
different level of downgrading....
stay MM can downgrade to 3rm flat.....stay 3bedder condo can downgrade to 1/2bedder.....stay landed down to 3bedder 1200sqft....
devilplate
30-12-10, 19:01
Doesn't make sense lei. :beats-me-man: People downgrade from 3000 sqft to 1200 sqft because too big to clean, too troublesome to maintain etc. What then is the rationale to downgrade from 3 Bedders to 2/1 bedders when the size different is like 1200 sqft to 1000 sqft / 700 sqft except because not enough money so want to free up some money for retirement? The way you say is like this is a personal choice and not because of monetary issue simply doesn't make sense. :p
some say no sense....some say common sense:beats-me-man:
Commonsense tell me that to downgrade from say 1200 sqft to say 700 sqft (not to say MM) is just to cash back some $$$ and nothing much else (since size different is not too great and still have to enduring with the trouble of shifting house etc). :cheers1:
some say no sense....some say common sense:beats-me-man:
teddybear[/b]] Doesn't make sense lei. :beats-me-man: People downgrade from 3000 sqft to 1200 sqft because too big to clean, too troublesome to maintain etc. What then is the rationale to downgrade from 3 Bedders to 2/1 bedders when the size different is like 1200 sqft to 1000 sqft / 700 sqft except because not enough money so want to free up some money for retirement? The way you say is like this is a personal choice and not because of monetary issue simply doesn't make sense. :p
devilplate
30-12-10, 19:45
Commonsense tell me that to downgrade from say 1200 sqft to say 700 sqft (not to say MM) is just to cash back some $$$ and nothing much else (since size different is not too great and still have to enduring with the trouble of shifting house etc). :cheers1:
It can actually help a person to become debt free... 200-300k is alot for some
Think we know why they buy MM for own stay....if can't afford weekly part time maid (how much is that?), are you sure they can afford monthly installments for bigger units?
Does anybody think that people will admit that they want to stay in condo, but can afford only MM?
Dont think so, they will give reasons like above, easier to clean.
or MM owners here will multiple properties, do they themselves stay in MM?
I am staying in one right now. In fact at a point in time was staying in one during weekdays and another during weekends.
Think we know why they buy MM for own stay....if can't afford weekly part time maid (how much is that?), are you sure they can afford monthly installments for bigger units?
Does anybody think that people will admit that they want to stay in condo, but can afford only MM?
Dont think so, they will give reasons like above, easier to clean.
or MM owners here will multiple properties, do they themselves stay in MM?
Since you brought up the word condo, in my short stint of four years buying and selling my own properties, i have met as many as 40-50 different buyer or seller groups. Another often heard statement is that they prefer a quiet surrounding and projects with not too many units nor kids, and not having to fight with other residents on the facilities. To them boutique developments (happen to be mostly MM ones) will be appealing. All the MM projects i stayed very little kid noise, dog noise and gym, pool etc always rarely used.
I stayed in a shoebox unit before and here's how it's like in a 400 sq ft flat:
- You can open the main door and jump right onto the couch.
- You can open the bedroom door and fall straight into your bed.
- Storage can be found against the walls, above your head and below your bed.
- You don’t feel like staying too long in a cell. You only go back to sleep.
You may check my full story at http://propertysoul.com/2010/12/22/so-you-want-a-shoebox-unit/
Personally, I am NOT very keen on MM units because:
1) You buy high during a prosperous property market when such units are available.
2) When the economy is bad, you have to rent low to compete with bigger units.
3) When the economy is good, you can’t find tenants because they have budget to go for decent-sized units.
I have shared my experiences and arguments in my blog as well:
http://propertysoul.com/2010/12/22/so-you-want-a-shoebox-unit-part-ii/
http://propertysoul.com/2010/12/24/so-you-want-a-shoebox-unit-part-iii/
You may think otherwise. Anyway, my apology if these make any MM unit investor feel uncomfortable.
devilplate
30-12-10, 21:21
1) any other sizes aso buy high
2) bigger units aso drop in rental
3) nonsense bcoz at any point in time, still got ppl renting hdb rooms
Buying MM must b careful on the quantum n layout... Must b livable....well this one its subjective
just wonder
ppl paid sky high prices for MM, eventually, how much they can make, and rent out is still a big question mark.
A decent family will not want the MM, a rich single or well paid professional also will not want MM.
Let's see, two years later, how is going to happen to all these MM.
perhaps below $1,000
MMs are never targeted at families, but at the single reasonably well-paid people who cannot afford larger condo units, and who do not want to stay in a HDB. Staying in a larger flat means higher maintenance whereas a decent-sized MM will allow the person to have similar quality of life without having to fork out too much money.
Very naive to think that such apartment units should rent out below $1,000. These days $700 gets you only a small bedroom in a HDB flat (with air-con). You have no idea how many foreign students and professionals in Singapore require accommodation. Soon, these foreign workers will become PR and will also want to start to buy a place here to live since it makes more sense than renting at $2,000 - $3,000 per month.
MM is also more attractive to foreign investors because they may want to park limited amount of money here. MM is not really targeted at those who are only able to afford 3 - 4room HDB flats.
Since you brought up the word condo, in my short stint of four years buying and selling my own properties, i have met as many as 40-50 different buyer or seller groups. Another often heard statement is that they prefer a quiet surrounding and projects with not too many units nor kids, and not having to fight with other residents on the facilities. To them boutique developments (happen to be mostly MM ones) will be appealing. All the MM projects i stayed very little kid noise, dog noise and gym, pool etc always rarely used.
Thank you for this post.
It links beautifully with my last posts in the Tennery thread, where the 1-bedders, while not eaxctly MM, share many of the merits of the smaller units.
MMs are never targeted at families, but at the single reasonably well-paid people who cannot afford larger condo units, and who do not want to stay in a HDB. Staying in a larger flat means higher maintenance whereas a decent-sized MM will allow the person to have similar quality of life without having to fork out too much money.
Very naive to think that such apartment units should rent out below $1,000. These days $700 gets you only a small bedroom in a HDB flat (with air-con). You have no idea how many foreign students and professionals in Singapore require accommodation. Soon, these foreign workers will become PR and will also want to start to buy a place here to live since it makes more sense than renting at $2,000 - $3,000 per month.
MM is also more attractive to foreign investors because they may want to park limited amount of money here. MM is not really targeted at those who are only able to afford 3 - 4room HDB flats.
Thanks also for this post as it helps to reveal mindsets which I believe will be relevant to me and the rental of my MM-but-not-quite unit!
I stayed in a shoebox unit before and here's how it's like in a 400 sq ft flat:
- You can open the main door and jump right onto the couch.
- You can open the bedroom door and fall straight into your bed.
- Storage can be found against the walls, above your head and below your bed.
- You don’t feel like staying too long in a cell. You only go back to sleep.
You may check my full story at http://propertysoul.com/2010/12/22/so-you-want-a-shoebox-unit/
I stayed in an MM when I was a student in Europe too. I liked the convenience of staying in one. But I share the same sentiments about other strange tenants that made me feel a bit uncomfortable especially in the lift or walking around the block at night. Can you also write an article that projects the local property market in the next 2-3 years? Thanks.
devilplate
31-12-10, 07:59
Pioneer MM investors with gd foresight had invested in 1bedder such as Icon oredi made a gd profit....easily 3folds
Since you brought up the word condo, in my short stint of four years buying and selling my own properties, i have met as many as 40-50 different buyer or seller groups. Another often heard statement is that they prefer a quiet surrounding and projects with not too many units nor kids, and not having to fight with other residents on the facilities. To them boutique developments (happen to be mostly MM ones) will be appealing. All the MM projects i stayed very little kid noise, dog noise and gym, pool etc always rarely used.
Thought these are self-explanatory for MM. no kid noise because no/little family with kids staying there. No dog noise because owners unlikely to keep dogs because already so cramped.
What are the tenants profile? Are they the type that never see the sun? workhard, partyhard. reach pad, hit the bed.
not having to fight with other residents on the facilities. Yet gym, pool always rarely used. A bit contradictory isn't it?
anyway, this are what occupiers/tenants want in any condos.
quiet surrounding but withing walking distance to ammenities and easily accesible to town / expressways / mrt.
Want all the above but "please, not in my backyard" mentality.
MMs are never targeted at families, but at the single reasonably well-paid people who cannot afford larger condo units, and who do not want to stay in a HDB.
As mentioned earlier, those who cannot afford big sized condo yet want condo living buy MM. yet they are too proud to say that they have not enough money, but instead give the reason that it is easier to clean. Perhaps easier to clean too, since lots of AC ledge, planter boxes, balcony in relation to livable space;).
Soon, these foreign workers will become PR and will also want to start to buy a place here to live since it makes more sense than renting at $2,000 - $3,000 per month.
Shooting own argument? Since rental for MM is about $2-3k per month also ;) so it makes more sense to buy.
It makes less sense to buy a MM rather than a bigger sized unit for the same amount of installment for own stay. That foreigner/PR can do more things with a bigger sized unit. Rent rooms, bring family members etc.
Well, hopefully the government withdraw the regulation that a PR cannot own both overseas and HDB properties by then....
MM is also more attractive to foreign investors because they may want to park limited amount of money here. MM is not really targeted at those who are only able to afford 3 - 4room HDB flats.
That I agree with you. MM is for investment, rental yield and cap gain, not for own stay.
I am staying in one right now. In fact at a point in time was staying in one during weekdays and another during weekends.
I like that, to be able to shift from place to place.
Why stop doing what you like?
Does your family members follow you in shifting? ;)
devilplate
31-12-10, 08:58
now i begin to worry on the rental market as a whole....
with more and more MMs being introduced and TOPed....very likely they will spoil the rental market....
those MMs bot at 4xx-5xxk can afford to rent out low low at 1.5k (1.5k,500k gives 3.6% gross yield, consider decent if its FH status) if oversupply of MMs surface 2yrs later....den normal sized units how....
let say a MM can rent out 2.5k now....2bedder abt 3-3.5k...later on MM spoil market at 1.5k...den 2bedder wat price?
not good for landlords....
My tennet is an expat mid-level manager working in an international company. He is in his late 30s, and I don't think he is a rush to get married. Yes, he works very hard but he keeps lots of plants in the banconly.
The next door lady works for a bank, loan officer, not local, single.
There is also a very pretty lady downstairs, she normally starts to work from 6pm. Not hard to guess which line she is in, but we all treat her with respect. After all she needs a place where she can completely forget about work and call it home.
Some young couples as well.
And yes, there are baby and kids in the project, in particular during weekends.
Thanks,
Richard
No problem lah. MMs can cut rent till $500 pm but still useless to people who need to house 4 in a family. These families will still need at least a 2-bedders (and 3-bedders if they can afford since can use 1 as study cum guest room - This is very common if rental budget is not an issue for the tenants). :cheers1:
now i begin to worry on the rental market as a whole....
with more and more MMs being introduced and TOPed....very likely they will spoil the rental market....
those MMs bot at 4xx-5xxk can afford to rent out low low at 1.5k (1.5k,500k gives 3.6% gross yield, consider decent if its FH status) if oversupply of MMs surface 2yrs later....den normal sized units how....
let say a MM can rent out 2.5k now....2bedder abt 3-3.5k...later on MM spoil market at 1.5k...den 2bedder wat price?
not good for landlords....
devilplate
31-12-10, 09:08
No problem lah. MMs can cut rent till $500 pm but still useless to people who need to house 4 in a family. These families will still need at least a 2-bedders (and 3-bedders if they can afford since can use 1 as study cum guest room - This is very common if rental budget is not an issue for the tenants). :cheers1:
hope i am wrong and u r right:D
hope i am wrong and u r right:D
You own more MM rather than 2BR and above units right? Afterall you mentioned you sold bigger sized units to buy MMs.
So you should be worry when Teddy said MM can drop to $500. But bigger sized units would be less affected.
And if rents drop and rates up, "free-fall durian" time :)
devilplate
31-12-10, 09:50
You own more MM rather than 2BR and above units right? Afterall you mentioned you sold bigger sized units to buy MMs.
So you should be worry when Teddy said MM can drop to $500. But bigger sized units would be less affected.
And if rents drop and rates up, "free-fall durian" time :)
u nvr noe my portfolio:p
It boils down to individuals. Desperate MM owners vs Desperate tenants. Who is more desperate.
hope i am wrong and u r right:D
u nvr noe my portfolio:p
Wah, promote MM heavily but in reality own more of bigger sized units.
really have own agenda ;)
If remember correctly, u bought waterbank :)
devilplate
31-12-10, 10:04
Wah, promote MM heavily but in reality own more of bigger sized units.
really have own agenda ;)
If remember correctly, u bought waterbank :)
i din promote MM heavily...in fact i criticise those 3xxsqft layout most of the time....
my MMs at least ard 500sqft
nids to have a balanced portfolio....certain project i find 1bedder more attractive...but others i reccommend PH or 2bedders....really depends on the pricing, location, quantum and layout
It boils down to individuals. Desperate MM owners vs Desperate tenants. Who is more desperate.
Are there any desperate tenants? There is more than enough empty condos and HDBs in the market, to meet budget from $1k/mth to $15k/mth
Unless HDB stop building 2011 onwards and more FW/FT allow in.
devilplate
31-12-10, 10:08
Are there any desperate tenants? There is more than enough empty condos and HDBs in the market, to meet budget from $1k/mth to $15k/mth
Unless HDB stop building 2011 onwards and more FW/FT allow in.
right now, rental still healthy...still landlord's market coupled with low int rate
Can you also write an article that projects the local property market in the next 2-3 years? Thanks.
Thanks for the suggestion. But except a few top US analysts, I don't think anyone can correctly point out where the market is heading in 2 to 3 years.
Besides, I'll be very biased :) By early next year, I would have finally cashed out my property porfolio (all 1 or 2 bedders) which I bought in 2002 to 2005.
I'm re-investing the profit in other asset classes less of a bubble and with more upside potential.
Thought these are self-explanatory for MM. no kid noise because no/little family with kids staying there. No dog noise because owners unlikely to keep dogs because already so cramped.
What are the tenants profile? Are they the type that never see the sun? workhard, partyhard. reach pad, hit the bed.
not having to fight with other residents on the facilities. Yet gym, pool always rarely used. A bit contradictory isn't it?
anyway, this are what occupiers/tenants want in any condos.
quiet surrounding but withing walking distance to ammenities and easily accesible to town / expressways / mrt.
Want all the above but "please, not in my backyard" mentality.
I have stayed in a MM unit for nearly a year in London. I don't cook and do the laundry and hence the MM unit is still very liveable for a single person. There is a small kitchen, a small dining table and a small TV and fridge. That is all I need for a temperory stay and it is pretty comfort in terms of space. However, what I notice is that the noise level is rather high. Not from outside but from the common corridor. The problem is tat the bed is situated rather close to the main door, hence you can hear your neighbours walking past your unit, open and closing the doors, which can be quite loud at times especially at night.
Hence, I would recommend MM units with a proper bedroom with a door and not the open ones. I chose to stay in MM not becos of limited budget but becos it was temperory, close to work and ammenities. It was also practical as there is no need to have big space for a single person. Location was the first priority then.
kingkong1984
31-12-10, 13:46
I have stayed in a MM unit for nearly a year in London. I don't cook and do the laundry and hence the MM unit is still very liveable for a single person. There is a small kitchen, a small dining table and a small TV and fridge. That is all I need for a temperory stay and it is pretty comfort in terms of space. However, what I notice is that the noise level is rather high. Not from outside but from the common corridor. The problem is tat the bed is situated rather close to the main door, hence you can hear your neighbours walking past your unit, open and closing the doors, which can be quite loud at times especially at night.
Hence, I would recommend MM units with a proper bedroom with a door and not the open ones. I chose to stay in MM not becos of limited budget but becos it was temperory, close to work and ammenities. It was also practical as there is no need to have big space for a single person. Location was the first priority then.
good sharing...
find the fish....
then put in the cage for the fish...
no need big cage... you see real world example of such fish traps used by fishermen at sea...
tie a rope and drop it to sea bed.
come back and check if trapped a big fish. Sometimes the fishes trapped are really big!!! of course cannot be bigger than the cage.
Thanks for the suggestion. But except a few top US analysts, I don't think anyone can correctly point out where the market is heading in 2 to 3 years.
.......
Not being a fence sitter :p, Singapore property market go up before starting to drop in 2013:2cents:
good sharing...
find the fish....
then put in the cage for the fish...
no need big cage... you see real world example of such fish traps used by fishermen at sea...
tie a rope and drop it to sea bed.
come back and check if trapped a big fish. Sometimes the fishes trapped are really big!!! of course cannot be bigger than the cage.
Your stories really make a person think :D
1)The bigger the condos, the richer the tenant? :confused:
2)Rich tenant with families won't stay in MM? :confused:
..... Location was the first priority then.
So MMs in Raffles Place, Shenton Way are safe ? no competition from HDBs?
MMs in suburbs like Telok Kurau are not safe investments? Because of substitute housing available for the same amount of rent?
devilplate
31-12-10, 13:59
So MMs in Raffles Place, Shenton Way are safe ? no competition from HDBs?
MMs in suburbs like Telok Kurau are not safe investments? Because of substitute housing available for the same amount of rent?
U keen in mmmmm?
devilplate
31-12-10, 14:17
So MMs in Raffles Place, Shenton Way are safe ? no competition from HDBs?
MMs in suburbs like Telok Kurau are not safe investments? Because of substitute housing available for the same amount of rent?
Mm in citylights southbank hot hot demand... Tenant willing to pay 3-3.5k for mm whereas nearby 4rm flat 2.5k....y?
U keen in mmmmm?
Keen in anything that makes money :D
But at this point in time, not getting anything. Waiting for next recession. Hope the recession strikes hard, deep and long lasting Then will try to get CBD area.
If recession long enough, developers also no choice but to release units at a reasonable price :)
Mm in citylights southbank hot hot demand... Tenant willing to pay 3-3.5k for mm whereas nearby 4rm flat 2.5k....y?
Nearby flats are old and HDB flats not built to last?
From google earth, got a big swimming pool nearby within walking distance.
We need fools to make us richer. Congrats to owners of Citylights and SB.
devilplate
31-12-10, 14:57
Keen in anything that makes money :D
But at this point in time, not getting anything. Waiting for next recession. Hope the recession strikes hard, deep and long lasting Then will try to get CBD area.
If recession long enough, developers also no choice but to release units at a reasonable price :)
cool...i bio my sky11...u bio ur CBD:D
Not a problem if the location is good. Can still demand for higher rental.
right now, rental still healthy...still landlord's market coupled with low int rate
kingkong1984
31-12-10, 16:19
Your stories really make a person think :D
1)The bigger the condos, the richer the tenant? :confused:
2)Rich tenant with families won't stay in MM? :confused:
Thanks for that.
Just to add. There's always a trade off between buying and renting.
If it make more sense to buy, they will buy
If it make more sense to rent, they will rent
So you have to price it right.
The tenant profile is associated with his needs and want. Need is the basic and want is the premium part. Basic need for space. Pay more for want to be "at which area, with what facilities, with what thrown in etc"
For tenant with families, it does not matter if they are rich or not. Basically MM's are not for families. It's mainly for singles, couples or at most, divorcees or to house mistress. SOHO is a different thing.
devilplate
31-12-10, 16:24
how different is SOHO?? SOHO@ central i can understand...but tennery...
kingkong1984
31-12-10, 16:33
how different is SOHO?? SOHO@ central i can understand...but tennery...
different in name, different in use and different in tenant profiles.
for Tennery, you just need a govt agency to move near to jurong. Few already mentioned right? Or a bank moving its back room ops there or to Jurong east. This will catch some of the spill over effects of jurong transformation. Just how long.
If you observed, the MRT line has resulted in the appreciation of HDB flats and private condos VALUE along the line. Some owners will be very happy to sell and move into Tennery, while some will be happy to invest more money in properties brought upon by the mrt line. Some rich people staying in D23 will bite, especially Hillview enclave of rich people.
devilplate
31-12-10, 16:55
different in name, different in use and different in tenant profiles.
for Tennery, you just need a govt agency to move near to jurong. Few already mentioned right? Or a bank moving its back room ops there or to Jurong east. This will catch some of the spill over effects of jurong transformation. Just how long.
If you observed, the MRT line has resulted in the appreciation of HDB flats and private condos VALUE along the line. Some owners will be very happy to sell and move into Tennery, while some will be happy to invest more money in properties brought upon by the mrt line. Some rich people staying in D23 will bite, especially Hillview enclave of rich people.
i mean a norm 1bedder and a so called soho status 1bedder...wats the diff
kingkong1984
31-12-10, 17:15
No diff to me but I am no expert. You might want to read these
Q2
http://www.ura.gov.sg/sales/images/blank.gif
Please let us know whether Small Office Home Office (SOHO) use can be considered as part of the minimum 30% office quantum as required in the tender conditions for the sale site at Jurong Gateway Road?
A2
http://www.ura.gov.sg/sales/images/blank.gif
URA's planning intention is to develop Jurong Lake District into a major commercial centre and an attractive business location outside the Central Business District. Hence, the proposed office development within the land parcel should be well-designed and of high-quality so that it can cater to the needs of global, regional and local businesses and financial institutions. Thus, the 30% minimum office quantum shall be strictly for pure office use only. The proposed office layout for the subject site will be subject to approval by the Authority at the Development Application (DA) stage.
If "Home Offices" are proposed, they can only be allowed in approved residential premises and would be computed as residential GFA based on the Development Control circular as shown in the link at http://www.ura.gov.sg/circulars/text/dc03-20.pdf. The GFA of the Home Offices will not be considered as part of the minimum 30% GFA to be set aside for office use for the sale site.
I like that, to be able to shift from place to place.
Why stop doing what you like?
Does your family members follow you in shifting? ;)
Yes my boy and gal follow me around... The year before i shifted at least 4-5 times... Lucky they always know to poo in the right places and not on me nor my furniture...
Mm in citylights southbank hot hot demand... Tenant willing to pay 3-3.5k for mm whereas nearby 4rm flat 2.5k....y?
technically units in citylights & sb not MMs, all larger than 500 sqft :)
Happy New Year to all! Huat ah for the new year :D
devilplate
01-01-11, 00:52
technically units in citylights & sb not MMs, all larger than 500 sqft :)
Happy New Year to all! Huat ah for the new year :D
over here...1bedder==MM liao loh
HAPPY2 2011
different in name, different in use and different in tenant profiles.
for Tennery, you just need a govt agency to move near to jurong. Few already mentioned right? Or a bank moving its back room ops there or to Jurong east. This will catch some of the spill over effects of jurong transformation. Just how long.
If you observed, the MRT line has resulted in the appreciation of HDB flats and private condos VALUE along the line. Some owners will be very happy to sell and move into Tennery, while some will be happy to invest more money in properties brought upon by the mrt line. Some rich people staying in D23 will bite, especially Hillview enclave of rich people.
Government agencies are in Jurong East. It is quite far from Bukit Panjang, which is developed for residential purpose.
kingkong1984
01-01-11, 15:16
spill over effects.... same as Lakeside
Yes my boy and gal follow me around... The year before i shifted at least 4-5 times... Lucky they always know to poo in the right places and not on me nor my furniture...
huh, your boy and gal are of the canine/feline variety? :confused:
huh, your boy and gal are of the canine/feline variety? :confused:
Yesh meowww.
proud owner
03-01-11, 19:59
Mm in citylights southbank hot hot demand... Tenant willing to pay 3-3.5k for mm whereas nearby 4rm flat 2.5k....y?
becos agents never show them HDBs ?
proud owner
03-01-11, 20:08
different in name, different in use and different in tenant profiles.
for Tennery, you just need a govt agency to move near to jurong. Few already mentioned right? Or a bank moving its back room ops there or to Jurong east. This will catch some of the spill over effects of jurong transformation. Just how long.
If you observed, the MRT line has resulted in the appreciation of HDB flats and private condos VALUE along the line. Some owners will be very happy to sell and move into Tennery, while some will be happy to invest more money in properties brought upon by the mrt line. Some rich people staying in D23 will bite, especially Hillview enclave of rich people.
which bank's back room ops can afford to rent MM condo ?
usually they rent HDB ..or a 2-3 bedder condo and share among a few colleagues
i am not sure they can afford a MM by themselves
kingkong1984
03-01-11, 21:31
They are better off with cheaper HDBs. I was commenting about the increased biz activity. More people will stay near hubs. So the demand base is increased.
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