View Full Version : Help: OTP Bank Loan > Real Purchase Price
Hi all,
Need your expert advice again!
My agent approached me and asked me to accept an offer for my unit e.g around 900K.
However in the OTP, the price that the buyer is paying for my unit is 1 Million.
The agent explained that this is done so that a higher bank loan can be obtained. Is this illegal or will cause problems? I don't feel right about this.
Do advise please!:confused: :confused: :confused:
bargain hunter
27-01-11, 00:14
clap clap. agent chut stunt liao. time to report to CEA to kick him out.
if this practice is not clamped down, it will simply lead to a spike in reported prices to new records and send the PPI surging instead. :D so much for cooling measures. PPI suddenly surges and causes a rush to buy instead.
Regulators
27-01-11, 00:18
just report this agent to CEA, weed him out :doh:
A few things tht need to clarify..I thought bank will only loan say 60%of the VALAUTION and not base willing seller/buyer price?
2nd, if OTP is $1m will u incure higher agent fee or property gain tax or stamp duty? if Yes , who bear?
3rd, Since thts the arrangement can u actually ask for additional $30k so u also gain from the deal?win win win situation. All parties benefited.
4th, wat benefit u get if u reported the agent to authority?no benefit!! but breaking others rice bowl, if u feel not comfortable, just back out la.
5th, consult a lawyer on the case if authorities finnally find out. I guess u can always tell the authorities u decided to give $100k discount in last minutes because u need the $ fast and dun want the deal to call off.
6th who knows maybe in future u need such arrangement frm the agent too.
I AM NOT AN AGENT
If you go ahead with such bogus contract, which is in black and white and legally binding, even if you get pass without authority knowing or saying anything, you will be living with it for the rest of your life. And this sort of under-the-table yet clearly in black and white is the most stupid thing anyone could do. It is like going to rob a bank with full CCTV recording all your actions. Even no one report and the bank still dont know, it is on record. Will you do that?
Stay clear of it. Live your life. Dont regret.
Yeah, like getting filmed having oral pleasure with edison chen.
Even if the videos are not publicly released, there is a record of your oral gymnastics lying around somewhere in someone's computer.
is your property still under mortgage?
putting ethics aside.
please tell the agent you agreed, and also tell him in order to keep up appearances, payments will be as if the transaction is $1mil.
when you have received the full payment of $1mil less bank loan, ignore phone calls from agents and buyer ;).
if agent complain, threaten him with CEA :D
if buyer threaten to take legal action, remember, it is all verbal :D
so you only win.
proud owner
27-01-11, 06:58
to be fair to agent ...
this could be something suggested by buyer ...
agent might have warned buyer that its wrong, but if buyer wants to continue such trick, agent can only proceed as he wishes ..
we mustnt jump the gun and penalise the agent ...
This is a very common practice where agents flipping the option to purchase.
U can report the case to CEA to clean up all these agents.
I know quite of number of agents doing this....
thomastansb
27-01-11, 08:49
As an agent, you should know what is right, what is wrong. I assume an agent needs to go through some courses and includes an ethics module as well. The agent is at a bigger fault - for not rejecting the buyer outright and collaborating with the buyer to persuade the seller. He is the real devil if you ask me. 2 offences. This is ridiculous.
to be fair to agent ...
this could be something suggested by buyer ...
agent might have warned buyer that its wrong, but if buyer wants to continue such trick, agent can only proceed as he wishes ..
we mustnt jump the gun and penalise the agent ...
proud owner
27-01-11, 08:55
As an agent, you should know what is right, what is wrong. I assume an agent needs to go through some courses and includes an ethics module as well. The agent is at a bigger fault - for not rejecting the buyer outright and collaborating with the buyer to persuade the seller. He is the real devil if you ask me. 2 offences. This is ridiculous.
i said before
a professional agent will advise both buyer and seller the real value of the property based on location, renovations, comparables in vicinity, etc
they know what is the right value and what is not
but our agents in spore NEVER do that .. why ?
becos the sellers all want to see FUTURE values
so that is also wrong but we never once said the agent is at fault ? why now ?
so in that aspects ALL AGENTS are unprofessional ...so are the sellers
wah, people here so ethical.
if the seller go along the plan, and then later refuse to return the $100k, can he do so safely?
thomastansb
27-01-11, 09:02
My advise is never do this. Reasons being:-
1. There are similar stories on such practices. You need to go jail if the authorities know about this. 100% go in. Why take the risk? There was this case where the agent, buyer, seller went to jail. The lawyer handling this case fought for 7 years and spend 1 million to clear his name.
2. If IRAS choose to tax you, you will be taxed on 1M. Not 900k. If you protest and say it is 900k, you are going jail as well.
3. You open yourself to all possible legal lawsuits. You have to know this is a scam to cheat the bank into releasing more $. The bank has the right to sue you, buyer and the agent to recover the cost + legal fees + damages + opportunity costs if this money is not disbursed. I believe this figure is not going to be small. 6 to 7 figures. Court fee alone will kill you. After you are made a bankrupt, you still need to go jail.
4. Agent fee is based on 1M, not 900k. 2% (or whatever that was agreed) x selling price. If you protest to CEA, you go jail too.
So you are putting yourself into a very disadvantaged position with a high probability of going to jail and be made a bankrupt. Unless you are paid a million to do that, if not, why are you taking such a BIG BIG risk? I hope this will discourage you to do that but you have to decide for yourself.
Hi all,
Need your expert advice again!
My agent approached me and asked me to accept an offer for my unit e.g around 900K.
However in the OTP, the price that the buyer is paying for my unit is 1 Million.
The agent explained that this is done so that a higher bank loan can be obtained. Is this illegal or will cause problems? I don't feel right about this.
Do advise please!:confused: :confused: :confused:
thomastansb
27-01-11, 09:06
Head don't meet tail. I am just commenting on your statement "don't penalise the agent". In actual fact, the agent has committed a grave offence, TWICE.
i said before
a professional agent will advise both buyer and seller the real value of the property based on location, renovations, comparables in vicinity, etc
they know what is the right value and what is not
but our agents in spore NEVER do that .. why ?
becos the sellers all want to see FUTURE values
so that is also wrong but we never once said the agent is at fault ? why now ?
so in that aspects ALL AGENTS are unprofessional ...so are the sellers
wah, people here so ethical.
if the seller go along the plan, and then later refuse to return the $100k, can he do so safely?
is this call high risk high gain hahahahah
My advise is never do this. Reasons being:-
1. There are similar stories on such practices. You need to go jail if the authorities know about this. 100% go in. Why take the risk? There was this case where the agent, buyer, seller went to jail. The lawyer handling this case fought for 7 years and spend 1 million to clear his name.
2. If IRAS choose to tax you, you will be taxed on 1M. Not 900k. If you protest and say it is 900k, you are going jail as well.
3. You open yourself to all possible legal lawsuits. You have to know this is a scam to cheat the bank into releasing more $. The bank has the right to sue you, buyer and the agent to recover the cost + legal fees + damages + opportunity costs if this money is not disbursed. I believe this figure is not going to be small. 6 to 7 figures. Court fee alone will kill you. After you are made a bankrupt, you still need to go jail.
4. Agent fee is based on 1M, not 900k. 2% (or whatever that was agreed) x selling price. If you protest to CEA, you go jail too.
So you are putting yourself into a very disadvantaged position with a high probability of going to jail and be made a bankrupt. Unless you are paid a million to do that, if not, why are you taking such a BIG BIG risk? I hope this will discourage you to do that but you have to decide for yourself.
so if seller insisted that the agreement was $1mil and not $900k? He can lie well through his teeth and no proof otherwise?
what are the options for buyer and agents?
report and all 3 go to jail? how to provide proof etc.
think only if seller is stupid and transfer 100k to buyer, then it maybe intepreted as the original intention is 900k
thomastansb
27-01-11, 09:30
TS already said inflate price by 100k to reflect 1M in option. So where do you think this 100k will go? Pretty obvious isn't it?
As for proof, well, you can lie. All 3 can lie as a matter of fact. It just take 1 party out of 3 to give up after hours of grilling and all 3 can go jail.
Which is why I concluded, why take the BIG risk if you have nothing to gain?
so if seller insisted that the agreement was $1mil and not $900k? He can lie well through his teeth and no proof otherwise?
what are the options for buyer and agents?
report and all 3 go to jail? how to provide proof etc.
think only if seller is stupid and transfer 100k to buyer, then it maybe intepreted as the original intention is 900k
TS already said inflate price by 100k to reflect 1M in option. So where do you think this 100k will go? Pretty obvious isn't it?
As for proof, well, you can lie. All 3 can lie as a matter of fact. It just take 1 party out of 3 to give up after hours of grilling and all 3 can go jail.
Which is why I concluded, why take the BIG risk if you have nothing to gain?
At the end, 100k go to seller's pocket la.
convince the buyer and agent that to make it convincing,have to transact as if the actual price is $1mil, stamp duty etc, agent fees etc. After done, then seller will put back the 100k less increase in 100k due stamp duty and agent fees.
does it look real enough?
and then after official transaction is completed, back out. If they want to sue, make them understand the possibility that all 3 will go to jail, buyer, seller and agent. Agent will fight on your behalf - so it is 2 against 1.
Give them a book on Game Theory, especially the example on Prisoner's Dilemma. Give them example of past cases where all 3 parties go to jail.
So if buyer want to cut his nose to spite his face, so be it.
Of course, I won't risk jail for a paltry $100k. The payoff is not enough. Perhaps $50million will do the trick for me ;)
is your property still under mortgage?
putting ethics aside.
please tell the agent you agreed, and also tell him in order to keep up appearances, payments will be as if the transaction is $1mil.
when you have received the full payment of $1mil less bank loan, ignore phone calls from agents and buyer ;).
if agent complain, threaten him with CEA :D
if buyer threaten to take legal action, remember, it is all verbal :D
so you only win.
CLAP CLAP! :) One moutain still got another higher moutain behind. Your scheme is doable and all within legal means.. Give them a taste of their own medicine.
Anyway, I would break the ricebowl of the agent for sure if i can get evidence he asked me to get only $900k when the contract is $1mil.
Whether the agent is forced to do it or not, it does not matter. The fact is he did it and he should be punished for it.
kingkong1984
27-01-11, 11:16
Hi all,
Need your expert advice again!
My agent approached me and asked me to accept an offer for my unit e.g around 900K.
However in the OTP, the price that the buyer is paying for my unit is 1 Million.
The agent explained that this is done so that a higher bank loan can be obtained. Is this illegal or will cause problems? I don't feel right about this.
Do advise please!:confused: :confused: :confused:
Just grant the option at your selling price. Otherways let agent play with buyer. You should never grant two live options at the same time.
A few things tht need to clarify..I thought bank will only loan say 60%of the VALAUTION and not base willing seller/buyer price?
2nd, if OTP is $1m will u incure higher agent fee or property gain tax or stamp duty? if Yes , who bear?
3rd, Since thts the arrangement can u actually ask for additional $30k so u also gain from the deal?win win win situation. All parties benefited.
4th, wat benefit u get if u reported the agent to authority?no benefit!! but breaking others rice bowl, if u feel not comfortable, just back out la.
5th, consult a lawyer on the case if authorities finnally find out. I guess u can always tell the authorities u decided to give $100k discount in last minutes because u need the $ fast and dun want the deal to call off.
6th who knows maybe in future u need such arrangement frm the agent too.
I AM NOT AN AGENT
Complain. Complain to CEA.
Make sure this types of agent lose their ricebowl. Otherwise some other day he will con another gullible client.
If agent don't have the integrity, they should be jailed. Period.
Why go thru all that trouble with lawyers, police and banks? Quick! Expose that agent!
And yeah, you're not an agent....just questionable ethics.
Just grant the option at your selling price. Otherways let agent play with buyer. You should never grant two live options at the same time.
agree that we should just follow the rules.
as pointed out already by many, there are so many implications to consider, many of which are beyond your control. also not worth the time and effort to complain about the agent - need evidence, get called up, and not much point trying to second-guess his real intentions.
be firm. tell the agent that you won't participate in this game; just take it or leave it.
do update us on your followup action, unless it cannot be posted.
4th, wat benefit u get if u reported the agent to authority?no benefit!! but breaking others rice bowl, if u feel not comfortable, just back out la.
I AM NOT AN AGENT Taking criminals out of the system benefits others who may fall prey to them. I don't think anyone should feel bad about breaking the rice bowl of criminals. No one is forcing him to behave corruptly. He could just be honest like the rest of us. What strange thinking you have. What next, don't report murderers because they not killed me yet?
Is it a crime if it does not happen?
quick, make the OTP $1million.
later you will deny everything and agent definitely will back you up. It is his own livelihood and freedom at stake so it will be 2 against 1.
proud owner
27-01-11, 13:14
Head don't meet tail. I am just commenting on your statement "don't penalise the agent". In actual fact, the agent has committed a grave offence, TWICE.
we do not know for a fact if it was the agent's idea or the seller's
or i am saying is that seller is equally at fault ... agent is only the media between the buyer and seller ...
if the agent is SOLEly at fault then what about the seller ??
i did not say that scheme is right or wrong ,, i am only commenting that in many cases ..its the seller's idea ... amd agent here in spore are NOT professional even .. to advise them ... and to penalise or jump at agent without knowing if it was his or the seller's doing ... is wrong as well
Hi all,
Need your expert advice again!
My agent approached me and asked me to accept an offer for my unit e.g around 900K.
However in the OTP, the price that the buyer is paying for my unit is 1 Million.
The agent explained that this is done so that a higher bank loan can be obtained. Is this illegal or will cause problems? I don't feel right about this.
Do advise please!:confused: :confused: :confused:
Since you don't feel it right then don't accept it, ask the agent revert back to actual selling price in the OTP. Why take risk?
is it the same method as car overtrade? is car overtrade illegal?
thomastansb
27-01-11, 14:42
My point is - I don't really care seller ask or agent suggest. To me, the agent is breaching the law, TWICE. First by not rejecting the buyer (or suggesting to buyer, whichever is the case), second by persuading the seller.
I am just commenting on your statement - Don't penalise the agent. (second time I am saying this)
In short, I just rebutt why don't penalise the agent when he/she commit the offence TWICE?
I don't care if the seller or buyer at fault. Not my concern. My concern is about the agent all these while. Agent SHOULDN'T HAVE PROCEEDED AS HE WISHES !!!!!!
I hope I make myself clear this time round.
This is your post:-
Originally Posted by proud owner
to be fair to agent ...
this could be something suggested by buyer ...
agent might have warned buyer that its wrong, but if buyer wants to continue such trick, agent can only proceed as he wishes ..
we mustnt jump the gun and penalise the agent ...
we do not know for a fact if it was the agent's idea or the seller's
or i am saying is that seller is equally at fault ... agent is only the media between the buyer and seller ...
if the agent is SOLEly at fault then what about the seller ??
i did not say that scheme is right or wrong ,, i am only commenting that in many cases ..its the seller's idea ... amd agent here in spore are NOT professional even .. to advise them ... and to penalise or jump at agent without knowing if it was his or the seller's doing ... is wrong as well
Why make a big fuss here? There are property deals concluded everyday not going by the books. While some are illegal, more are fall in grey areas.
After last August's cooling measures, I also received buyer offers for my properties suggesting a much higher offer than asking price, but with cash rebate or stamp duty paid by seller after handover.
The market was not that desperate at that time. I had other 'normal offers' coming in and I don't have to consider these 'special deals'.
With the new Jan 14 measures, the problems are:
1) Buyers don't have enough cash for 40% downpayment + stamp duty + legal fee;
2) Sellers getting difficult to find eager and eligible buyers; and
3) Agents cannot close that many deals.
So don't be surprised to see how people try to work around it to get the deals closed.
proud owner
27-01-11, 15:47
[quote=thomastansb]My point is - I don't really care seller ask or agent suggest. To me, the agent is breaching the law, TWICE. First by not rejecting the buyer (or suggesting to buyer, whichever is the case), second by persuading the seller.
I am just commenting on your statement - Don't penalise the agent. (second time I am saying this)
i also dont care cos i am not an agent
my point is ... always check where is the first fault before one points the finger
l
in the eyes of the law ... the mastermind of a plot, is worse than one who executes it ...
check with your law friend, if you have any
thought your SAF motto is "everything is ok, just don't get caught".
you deny everything, agent also deny everything, what can buyer do?
if buyer can successfully sue and all 3 go to jail, got lots of potential for blackmail.
A poor man buy a property from a rich man. Once deal is completed, the poor man threatened to go to court, sue the rich man because the rich man promise to give cash back.
Who got more to lose? the rich man or the poor man?
thought your SAF motto is "everything is ok, just don't get caught".
you deny everything, agent also deny everything, what can buyer do?
if buyer can successfully sue and all 3 go to jail, got lots of potential for blackmail.
A poor man buy a property from a rich man. Once deal is completed, the poor man threatened to go to court, sue the rich man because the rich man promise to give cash back.
Who got more to lose? the rich man or the poor man?
poor man buy property from rich man. after option exercised, rich man receives falsely declared signed OTP, complains to CEA and cancels sale, then proceeds to sue poor man for implied losses, damages, accrued fees and cancellations.
Wild Falcon
27-01-11, 20:34
Not surprised. Even banks are getting creative. Good news for upgraders.
====
Banks roll out flexible home loans
BANKS here are providing an unprecedented degree of flexibility when granting loans to home buyers who are moving from one home to another.
They are agreeing to grant loans of up to 60 per cent of the property's value first, and raising them to 80 per cent later.
The move is helping property upgraders save time and money as they navigate tricky timelines created by new property financing rules first introduced last August. To recap, the rules stipulate that home owners with an existing home loan can obtain only 70 per cent financing for a second home they wish to buy. The limit was reduced further to 60 per cent this month. The usual loan limit is 80 per cent. This makes it hard for home buyers, particularly those in the Housing Board market, who simply want to move from one property to another. They now have to prove they have sold their existing flat before qualifying for 80 per cent financing.
The problem is that the proof of sale is a letter of approval from the HDB, which is issued two weeks after what is known as the 'first appointment'. This appointment, part of the HDB buying process, takes place six to eight weeks from when the deal is struck. What this means is that an HDB upgrader or downgrader would have to sell his unit first and wait about two months before he can get 80 per cent financing from a bank for his next home. Otherwise, he will get only 60 per cent. Logistically, he will also have to move out of his existing flat way before he can move into his new one.
This has translated to hundreds of property buyers moving to an interim location. Some even ask for an extension of stay at their existing homes beyond the legal completion of the sale, which is technically illegal under HDB rules. Most banks here say they are prepared to grant these buyers 60 per cent financing on a new home, and then restructuring the loan to 80 per cent financing when the buyer proves he has sold his home.
HSBC personal financing services head Greg Zeeman said: 'We are flexible about reviewing loan quantums, as we understand customers sometimes need more time to sell their existing property or decide on the proportion of loan and CPF savings used to finance their new property.'
This is a radical departure from past practice. Previously, once the letter of offer from a bank was accepted by a borrower, the terms could not be changed, said Dennis Wee Group director Chris Koh. United Overseas Bank (UOB) loans division head Chia Siew Cheng said UOB also offers this flexibility, but added that it also takes into account 'current market regulations and guidelines, customers with good credit records, stable income and the ability to service the loan'.
Private property owners who are buying and selling their homes in back-to-back transactions also potentially benefit from this increased flexibility. But the problem is less acute for them because in the private property market, home sellers can stipulate a longer period of time for a sale to be completed. The stamp duty certificate - the proof needed for 80 per cent financing for private property - is also obtained earlier in the sale process.
One home owner looking to move is housewife Koh Lay Hua, 55, who cheered the new flexibility offered by banks. 'I'm glad some banks are allowing this... I definitely would have to sell my flat to pay for the next one.'
Why make a big fuss here? There are property deals concluded everyday not going by the books. While some are illegal, more are fall in grey areas.
After last August's cooling measures, I also received buyer offers for my properties suggesting a much higher offer than asking price, but with cash rebate or stamp duty paid by seller after handover.
The market was not that desperate at that time. I had other 'normal offers' coming in and I don't have to consider these 'special deals'.
With the new Jan 14 measures, the problems are:
1) Buyers don't have enough cash for 40% downpayment + stamp duty + legal fee;
2) Sellers getting difficult to find eager and eligible buyers; and
3) Agents cannot close that many deals.
So don't be surprised to see how people try to work around it to get the deals closed.
cheongster
27-01-11, 20:59
Good one! Haha
is your property still under mortgage?
putting ethics aside.
please tell the agent you agreed, and also tell him in order to keep up appearances, payments will be as if the transaction is $1mil.
when you have received the full payment of $1mil less bank loan, ignore phone calls from agents and buyer ;).
if agent complain, threaten him with CEA :D
if buyer threaten to take legal action, remember, it is all verbal :D
so you only win.
cheongster
27-01-11, 21:06
What benefit?
Doing social good by weeding others these greedy scumbags agents who distort the market.
"Break rice bowl"? If there are thousands of other agents who can make a honest living without being scumbags, i don't see why can't they?
4th, wat benefit u get if u reported the agent to authority?no benefit!! but breaking others rice bowl, if u feel not comfortable, just back out la.
I AM NOT AN AGENT
cheongster
27-01-11, 21:11
Govt sure is smart to institutionalize CEA just before they kill with the 14Jan measures.
I personally think its good move.
(don't kill me)
Why make a big fuss here? There are property deals concluded everyday not going by the books. While some are illegal, more are fall in grey areas.
After last August's cooling measures, I also received buyer offers for my properties suggesting a much higher offer than asking price, but with cash rebate or stamp duty paid by seller after handover.
The market was not that desperate at that time. I had other 'normal offers' coming in and I don't have to consider these 'special deals'.
With the new Jan 14 measures, the problems are:
1) Buyers don't have enough cash for 40% downpayment + stamp duty + legal fee;
2) Sellers getting difficult to find eager and eligible buyers; and
3) Agents cannot close that many deals.
So don't be surprised to see how people try to work around it to get the deals closed.
thomastansb
27-01-11, 22:38
The agent is at fault twice. Somemore a professional making such offence. First fault or whatever, it doesn't matter. Fault is fault. No first or second fault. Offence is offence. I don't need a lawyer to explain. Again, for the THIRD time, I am just commenting on your statement - Don't penalise the agent.
[quote=thomastansb]My point is - I don't really care seller ask or agent suggest. To me, the agent is breaching the law, TWICE. First by not rejecting the buyer (or suggesting to buyer, whichever is the case), second by persuading the seller.
I am just commenting on your statement - Don't penalise the agent. (second time I am saying this)
i also dont care cos i am not an agent
my point is ... always check where is the first fault before one points the finger
l
in the eyes of the law ... the mastermind of a plot, is worse than one who executes it ...
check with your law friend, if you have any
Complain. Complain to CEA.
Make sure this types of agent lose their ricebowl. Otherwise some other day he will con another gullible client.
If agent don't have the integrity, they should be jailed. Period.
Why go thru all that trouble with lawyers, police and banks? Quick! Expose that agent!
And yeah, you're not an agent....just questionable ethics.
Ethics? which businessman has it? even in office colleagues are backstabing, politicians r giving false hope, George Bush?, pap never tell lies? US is transfering their debts to other country by printing more $, or will u hand $100 found on coridor to neighbourhood police? never cheat MC before?In this world there is still grey color. we must encourage creativity.
I am not asking him to participate but to walk away frm the deal if he is not comfortable.
If you don't want to live nervously for the rest of your life, don't do such business.
proud owner
28-01-11, 08:03
to be fair to agent ...
this could be something suggested by buyer ...
agent might have warned buyer that its wrong, but if buyer wants to continue such trick, agent can only proceed as he wishes ..
we mustnt jump the gun and penalise the agent ...
to those 'blind' reader ... the above was my original post ..
nowhere in it had i say 'DONT PENALISE THE AGENT" ...
i was being fair ..stating that it could have been the seller's idea ... and that we mustn't jump the gun and straightaway point finger at the agent..
this is also the 3rd time i am stating my point : find out who was the mastermind ..
case close on this for me ... very tiring when dealing with people who dont read carefully and anyhow point finger ... just like the issue on hand ..same same
poor man buy property from rich man. after option exercised, rich man receives falsely declared signed OTP, complains to CEA and cancels sale, then proceeds to sue poor man for implied losses, damages, accrued fees and cancellations.
Can this be done? I am interested to know more how this scheme is done. With the pure intention of protecting myself against the machinations of rich man of course ;).
I would presume that there will be only 1 set of OTP, and cash back will be verbal. so no falsed declared signed OTP, since it is the seller (rich man) who issue out the OTP. so how can rich man receives falsely declared signed OTP?
thomastan is right.
Agent is the certified one, the one who has "expert" knowledge.
buyer and seller both layman, can claim ignorance of the law, (of course still guilty and punished appropriately). They can claimed led astray by agent.
It is just like being an auditor or accountant. knowing that the boss is doing improper accounting yet he is the one who pays the salary or the fees.
If whistle blow, they will be kicked out of the company, andlose job or fees.
According to what I know, auditor and accountant supposed to withdraw or resign to uphold their ethics. But in real world, got bills to pay, mouths to feed, etc. So like your favourite SAF motto "dont get caught" :D. or better still, everybody buy a spy recorder or spy cam (just don't point upskirt) :D
thomastansb
28-01-11, 08:22
TS very first post. Self explanatory.
Based on this alone, CEA will definitely bar this agent, probably forever. Who suggest, it doesn't matter. The agent is in the wrong. Or you still think this is acceptable by CEA if buyer is the mastermind??? :doh::doh:
Hi all,
Need your expert advice again!
My agent approached me and asked me to accept an offer for my unit e.g around 900K.
However in the OTP, the price that the buyer is paying for my unit is 1 Million.
The agent explained that this is done so that a higher bank loan can be obtained. Is this illegal or will cause problems? I don't feel right about this.
[quote=proud owner]to those 'blind' reader ... the above was my original post ..
nowhere in it had i say 'DONT PENALISE THE AGENT" ...
i was being fair ..stating that it could have been the seller's idea ... and that we mustn't jump the gun and straightaway point finger at the agent..
this is also the 3rd time i am stating my point : find out who was the mastermind ..
case close on this for me ... very tiring when dealing with people who dont read carefully and anyhow point finger ... just like the issue on hand ..same same
thomastansb
28-01-11, 08:27
Yeah, finally! This is what I have been trying to say. We can argue seller suggest, buyer force agent bla bla bla but at the end of the day, the agent committed the mistake, twice. Such agent should be kicked out.
thomastan is right.
Agent is the certified one, the one who has "expert" knowledge.
buyer and seller both layman, can claim ignorance of the law, (of course still guilty and punished appropriately). They can claimed led astray by agent.
It is just like being an auditor or accountant. knowing that the boss is doing improper accounting yet he is the one who pays the salary or the fees.
If whistle blow, they will be kicked out of the company, andlose job or fees.
According to what I know, auditor and accountant supposed to withdraw or resign to uphold their ethics. But in real world, got bills to pay, mouths to feed, etc. So like your favourite SAF motto "dont get caught" :D. or better still, everybody buy a spy recorder or spy cam (just don't point upskirt) :D
proud owner
28-01-11, 09:00
thomastan is right.
Agent is the certified one, the one who has "expert" knowledge.
buyer and seller both layman, can claim ignorance of the law, (of course still guilty and punished appropriately). They can claimed led astray by agent.
It is just like being an auditor or accountant. knowing that the boss is doing improper accounting yet he is the one who pays the salary or the fees.
If whistle blow, they will be kicked out of the company, andlose job or fees.
According to what I know, auditor and accountant supposed to withdraw or resign to uphold their ethics. But in real world, got bills to pay, mouths to feed, etc. So like your favourite SAF motto "dont get caught" :D. or better still, everybody buy a spy recorder or spy cam (just don't point upskirt) :D
again ... people only read what they want to read ...
see the difference between the part in BLACK and the part in RED ??
proud owner
28-01-11, 09:06
once, i was in the lift with a chinese woman, her maid and her half ang moh son ..
he insisted that the maid carry him .. but being half angmoh..he is big for his age .. and the maid is small size ..
the maid didnt ..and he started to scream .. and she reluctantly obliged ..
meanwhile the mother just watch and did or said nothing ...
i felt he was so spoilt
so i kaypoed and said to him ... 'you are a big boy now..you can stand on your own'
he actually struggled to be release and stood on his own ..
only then the mother said " tats right, you are a big boy'
was the maid at fault for spoiling the child ? and no saying NO ..cos i am sure she knows its not right that he insisted to be carry .. ?
is she NOT doing her job ??
or is it the mother ? who did nothing but watch ... who failed to discipline her son ? who fail to instil something right ??
base on some people's thinking .... of pointing finger ... THE maid is at fault .. should be fired ...
thomastansb
28-01-11, 09:15
Nice story but bad example.
We are talking about someone who has committed an offence. A seizable offence which can land you in jail. Can it be viewed as cheating? Forgery for the purpose of cheating?
Anyway, we can come up with 1,001 stories. 1 million stories. It never ends. What I want to say is, the agent is at fault (do you agree?). Ought to be sacked. Fingers should be pointed to the agent's malpractices. Regardless who initiated it. If you say no, I would say lucky you are not from CEA and no point discussing this anymore because you think the agent is not at fault (even though he has committed a grave offence) and shouldn't take the blame and fingers pointing because he didn't initiated it. But I strongly believe CEA, banks and even Government view this seriously. Then again, you can scream don't point fingers at the agent......
once, i was in the lift with a chinese woman, her maid and her half ang moh son ..
he insisted that the maid carry him .. but being half angmoh..he is big for his age .. and the maid is small size ..
the maid didnt ..and he started to scream .. and she reluctantly obliged ..
meanwhile the mother just watch and did or said nothing ...
i felt he was so spoilt
so i kaypoed and said to him ... 'you are a big boy now..you can stand on your own'
he actually struggled to be release and stood on his own ..
only then the mother said " tats right, you are a big boy'
was the maid at fault for spoiling the child ? and no saying NO ..cos i am sure she knows its not right that he insisted to be carry .. ?
is she NOT doing her job ??
or is it the mother ? who did nothing but watch ... who failed to discipline her son ? who fail to instil something right ??
base on some people's thinking .... of pointing finger ... THE maid is at fault .. should be fired ...
Squall8888
28-01-11, 09:43
So comical. Hahahaa. Was laughing when I was reading. Proud owner is an agent I assume? My feel is the agent ought to be shot. This is artificially jacking up the property prices. My advice to solarius is not to listen to your agent. Find another one. Let the exclusive run till the end and find a more ethical, a more honest and will not get you into trouble agent. This agent is not acting in your interest. He will get you into trouble in future.
proud owner
28-01-11, 10:01
So comical. Hahahaa. Was laughing when I was reading. Proud owner is an agent I assume? My feel is the agent ought to be shot. This is artificially jacking up the property prices. My advice to solarius is not to listen to your agent. Find another one. Let the exclusive run till the end and find a more ethical, a more honest and will not get you into trouble agent. This agent is not acting in your interest. He will get you into trouble in future.
you assumed wrong
i did not say the agent is right ...
i only said we need to know if the seller was the mastermind ...
too bad there isnt any authority whereby we can report such sellers ...
too bad theres CEA who only deals with agent ...
too bad for agents ..
lucky for unscrupulous sellers
i am just a person who likes to go to the source of all evils ...
weeding without removing the roots does not remove the problem
Actually, hor, what "offence" is that hah? So serious mah?
In my dictionary there are 2 types of offences:
1) "Moral" offences: Those are that ethically, morally wrong (e.g. rob, kill, steal, harm somebody etc) - Never commit such offence!
2) "Legal" offences: Those that are legally wrong - But you don't kill, rob, steal or even harm anybody except that it is illegal for one reason or another (usually dictated by the Govt, e.g. avoid taxes through various means, either exploiting legal loopholes and when not successfully exploited becomes illegal, driving on bus lanes, parking in RED car park lots or parking in VIP car park lots (Yes, this is true!) etc (many many such so called "legal" offences!). Oh yes, the worst is those so called "legal enforcers" capture your car driving in the bus lane just before you turned left into another branch road and then said "you committed the offence of violating the bus lane!". *#$*()+. How they expect drivers to turn left from the middle lane immediately into left-branch road without switching to the left-most bus lane and cruise for some distance before turning? How many of you have encountered this before? :simmering:
The discussion in Question falls into (2). What is so "illegal" or offensive about such offence? Many people do that one way or another, exploiting legal loopholes as well. So to me, it is: "If you do it, don't get caught (legally)". If you are the easily scared type, don't do it (else cannot sleep at night). :D
Frankly speaking, if whole deal you don't benefit a single cent, why do that to benefit the buyer and agent only and get yourself into "Legal" offence? :cheers1:
Nice story but bad example.
We are talking about someone who has committed an offence. A seizable offence which can land you in jail. Can it be viewed as cheating? Forgery for the purpose of cheating?
Anyway, we can come up with 1,001 stories. 1 million stories. It never ends. What I want to say is, the agent is at fault (do you agree?). Ought to be sacked. Fingers should be pointed to the agent's malpractices. Regardless who initiated it. If you say no, I would say lucky you are not from CEA and no point discussing this anymore because you think the agent is not at fault (even though he has committed a grave offence) and shouldn't take the blame and fingers pointing because he didn't initiated it. But I strongly believe CEA, banks and even Government view this seriously. Then again, you can scream don't point fingers at the agent......
Actually hor can stop discussion liao la ... the one who start this thread never response. :sleep:
Maybe having kopi with CID liao. :D
Actually hor can stop discussion liao la ... the one who start this thread never response. :sleep:
CID hiding and reading all the postings here? :scared-3:
Maybe having kopi with CID liao. :D
You all no need to be scared, since I am the only actively pushing for it, for him to make OTP $1mil and then later deny everything.
Scared to visit Singapore already :scared-3:.
But really, judging from comments here, Singaporeans are kiasi because scared of law and not because morally upright.
When in Singapore, I am a well-behaved person ;) The only illegal thing I committed jaywalking, so I am also kiasi because scared of Singapore law.:D
Personally I like this agent, very flexible. Hard to find this kind of agent nowadays. CEA certified and not scared to be flexible. Can PM me this agent?
So comical. Hahahaa. Was laughing when I was reading. Proud owner is an agent I assume? My feel is the agent ought to be shot. This is artificially jacking up the property prices. My advice to solarius is not to listen to your agent. Find another one. Let the exclusive run till the end and find a more ethical, a more honest and will not get you into trouble agent. This agent is not acting in your interest. He will get you into trouble in future.No need to wait for the exclusiveness to end. Report him and then you can continue to sell your house. No need to waste time.
kingkong1984
28-01-11, 12:15
Just grant him the option at your reserve selling price and above. Rest is waste time.
Actually, hor, what "offence" is that hah? So serious mah?
In my dictionary there are 2 types of offences:
1) "Moral" offences: Those are that ethically, morally wrong (e.g. rob, kill, steal, harm somebody etc) - Never commit such offence!
2) "Legal" offences: Those that are legally wrong - But you don't kill, rob, steal or even harm anybody except that it is illegal for one reason or another (usually dictated by the Govt, e.g. avoid taxes through various means, either exploiting legal loopholes and when not successfully exploited becomes illegal, driving on bus lanes, parking in RED car park lots or parking in VIP car park lots (Yes, this is true!) etc (many many such so called "legal" offences!). Oh yes, the worst is those so called "legal enforcers" capture your car driving in the bus lane just before you turned left into another branch road and then said "you committed the offence of violating the bus lane!". *#$*()+. How they expect drivers to turn left from the middle lane immediately into left-branch road without switching to the left-most bus lane and cruise for some distance before turning? How many of you have encountered this before? :simmering:
The discussion in Question falls into (2). What is so "illegal" or offensive about such offence? Many people do that one way or another, exploiting legal loopholes as well. So to me, it is: "If you do it, don't get caught (legally)". If you are the easily scared type, don't do it (else cannot sleep at night). :D
Frankly speaking, if whole deal you don't benefit a single cent, why do that to benefit the buyer and agent only and get yourself into "Legal" offence? :cheers1:See mee lai eh. Sprout nonsense, AGAIN.
Regulators
28-01-11, 12:22
Nonsense Sprouting King mah
See mee lai eh. Sprout nonsense, AGAIN.
See mee lai eh. Sprout nonsense, AGAIN.
......
The discussion in Question falls into (2). What is so "illegal" or offensive about such offence? Many people do that one way or another, exploiting legal loopholes as well. So to me, it is: "If you do it, don't get caught (legally)". If you are the easily scared type, don't do it (else cannot sleep at night). :D
Frankly speaking, if whole deal you don't benefit a single cent, why do that to benefit the buyer and agent only and get yourself into "Legal" offence? :cheers1:
Patricia, care to explain which part is nonsense or illogical?
To put it in point form.
1) if want to do it, don't get caught.
2) if easily scared, don't do it.
3) if don't benefit you, why do it?
thomastansb
28-01-11, 13:02
Both are increasing selling price to get higher loan or commonly known as cash back scam.
http://sgpropertypeople.blogspot.com/2010/11/st-cashback-scam-agents-jail-term-cut.html
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporelocalnews/view/291990/1/.html (http://forums.sgclub.com/singapore/property_agent_jailed_23671.html)
Actually, hor, what "offence" is that hah? So serious mah?
In my dictionary there are 2 types of offences:
1) "Moral" offences: Those are that ethically, morally wrong (e.g. rob, kill, steal, harm somebody etc) - Never commit such offence!
2) "Legal" offences: Those that are legally wrong - But you don't kill, rob, steal or even harm anybody except that it is illegal for one reason or another (usually dictated by the Govt, e.g. avoid taxes through various means, either exploiting legal loopholes and when not successfully exploited becomes illegal, driving on bus lanes, parking in RED car park lots or parking in VIP car park lots (Yes, this is true!) etc (many many such so called "legal" offences!). Oh yes, the worst is those so called "legal enforcers" capture your car driving in the bus lane just before you turned left into another branch road and then said "you committed the offence of violating the bus lane!". *#$*()+. How they expect drivers to turn left from the middle lane immediately into left-branch road without switching to the left-most bus lane and cruise for some distance before turning? How many of you have encountered this before? :simmering:
The discussion in Question falls into (2). What is so "illegal" or offensive about such offence? Many people do that one way or another, exploiting legal loopholes as well. So to me, it is: "If you do it, don't get caught (legally)". If you are the easily scared type, don't do it (else cannot sleep at night). :D
Frankly speaking, if whole deal you don't benefit a single cent, why do that to benefit the buyer and agent only and get yourself into "Legal" offence? :cheers1:
Both are increasing selling price to get higher loan or commonly known as cash back scam.
http://sgpropertypeople.blogspot.com/2010/11/st-cashback-scam-agents-jail-term-cut.html
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporelocalnews/view/291990/1/.html (http://forums.sgclub.com/singapore/property_agent_jailed_23671.html)
If all parties know about (including bank), and terms properly listed out, then it is not illegal.
anyway, seller is stupid enough to transfer the money.
you assumed wrong
i did not say the agent is right ...
i only said we need to know if the seller was the mastermind ...
too bad there isnt any authority whereby we can report such sellers ...
too bad theres CEA who only deals with agent ...
too bad for agents ..
lucky for unscrupulous sellers
i am just a person who likes to go to the source of all evils ...
weeding without removing the roots does not remove the problem
Hi PO,
I thot its clear from the 1st post that TS is the seller and the agent suggested to him to accept the otp at $1mio. The agent also need to explain the mechanics behind the deal to the seller. So how can this scheme be an idea from the seller? or do you mean its suggested by the buyer?
In any case, I also think Thomas is right in that the agent should be censured. Some years back, I have a reverse example to share:
I made an offer to buy a condo at $1.4 mio even though the seller wanted $1.5 mio. The buyer accepted my offer but asked me to state $1.2mio and pay him the difference in cash in return for `buying' his furniture and paying for his agent's commission. The real reason is so that he does not have to return the $200k to cpf as he is in debt. For a moment, I thot its a good idea as its a win-win for both parties. In a way, its also not impossible to argue that his furniture and commission comes up to $200k. In the end, i decided to walk out of the deal simply because the intention was clearly to cheat cpf. I just can't get past my own conscience. I believe $ has to be made legally.
Hopeful, I like your example coz I'm a CPA. In my course of work, i'm glad to know Singapore's CFOs will generally walk away and resign rather than follow blindly CEO's instructions.
kingkong1984
28-01-11, 18:04
Simple, inflate or deflate it to gain.
Honest seller take no shit and sleep in peace.
Hi PO,
I thot its clear from the 1st post that TS is the seller and the agent suggested to him to accept the otp at $1mio. The agent also need to explain the mechanics behind the deal to the seller. So how can this scheme be an idea from the seller? or do you mean its suggested by the buyer?
In any case, I also think Thomas is right in that the agent should be censured. Some years back, I have a reverse example to share:
I made an offer to buy a condo at $1.4 mio even though the seller wanted $1.5 mio. The buyer accepted my offer but asked me to state $1.2mio and pay him the difference in cash in return for `buying' his furniture and paying for his agent's commission. The real reason is so that he does not have to return the $200k to cpf as he is in debt. For a moment, I thot its a good idea as its a win-win for both parties. In a way, its also not impossible to argue that his furniture and commission comes up to $200k. In the end, i decided to walk out of the deal simply because the intention was clearly to cheat cpf. I just can't get past my own conscience. I believe $ has to be made legally.
Hopeful, I like your example coz I'm a CPA. In my course of work, i'm glad to know Singapore's CFOs will generally walk away and resign rather than follow blindly CEO's instructions.
We have COV for HDB, why not treat it as COV for pte hse...
thomastansb
28-01-11, 18:11
Try telling the bank, lawyer or CEA and see what reply you get. It is amazing people still think it can be legal.
If all parties know about (including bank), and terms properly listed out, then it is not illegal.
anyway, seller is stupid enough to transfer the money.
thomastansb
28-01-11, 18:15
COV is cash over valuation. You pay cash.
In this thread, they wanted to cheat the bank (cash back scheme) into releasing more money. So it is not COV because buyer don't pay cash. Rather, the bank is fooled or cheated. This has happened before and have landed all parties into jail.
We have COV for HDB, why not treat it as COV for pte hse...
It is illegal because it reduces taxes for govt. If it increases taxes, then it can be made legal.
kingkong1984
28-01-11, 19:03
No, it can be either way, both wrong
Hi folks,
Thanks for your replies. You gave me better clarity on my situation and I decided to give up on the deal. Not worth the potential problems in the future. Still lots to learn! Thank you once again!
Hi folks,
Thanks for your replies. You gave me better clarity on my situation and I decided to give up on the deal. Not worth the potential problems in the future. Still lots to learn! Thank you once again!
well here's another spin to it
accept the OTP with the 1percent cheque
tell them to proceed with the terms on the OTP or forfeit the cheque
i dont think u can be faulted
but i wont do it la, bad karma
and the agent has told you the real truth behind it
if im the buyer, i wont even dare to put it at 1mil on the OTP
tats really dumb
how is he to ensure that he will only pay u 900k
the lawyers will act as if its 1mil
kingkong1984
29-01-11, 04:03
Minimized risk. Probably seller out of pocket by 50k to 100k first.
Try telling the bank, lawyer or CEA and see what reply you get. It is amazing people still think it can be legal.
how different is it from:
FEO is also offering early-bird buyers a five percent cash rebate, which will be paid out only after the completion of the project. This move is in line with the developer’s aim to build a stronger base of long-term buyers, said The Straits Times.
Hi folks,
Thanks for your replies. You gave me better clarity on my situation and I decided to give up on the deal. Not worth the potential problems in the future. Still lots to learn! Thank you once again!
can PM me that agent's name and number?
That agent has his uses too.
Patricia, care to comment which part is garbage or illogical.
You seems to have a tendency to make one liners and when challenged, disappeared into the background before popping somewhere else and making another "that is garbage" statement.
how different is it from:
FEO is also offering early-bird buyers a five percent cash rebate, which will be paid out only after the completion of the project. This move is in line with the developer’s aim to build a stronger base of long-term buyers, said The Straits Times.
In this case, the govt can tax the higher price set by FEO, so it is legal.
In this case, the govt can tax the higher price set by FEO, so it is legal.
my comment was:
"If all parties know about (including bank), and terms properly listed out, then it is not illegal."
thomastan replied it was illegal.
In FEO case, all the parties involved, buyer, seller (developer), bank, government are aware, so why is it allowed (if thomastan said was correct, therefore illegal)?
kingkong1984
29-01-11, 08:31
Developer is big player and can package it as offered to all. Seller offer to one as that is his one and only. Get it? When given to all, it's open, nothing to hide. When offer to one, must check on the intention. Intention to cheat government, cannot get away. Intention to cheat buyer or seller, ok, not govt biz.
In this case, the govt can tax the higher price set by FEO, so it is legal.
Ur argument is flawed. Here gov can also collect higher stamp duty too.
I personally am unclear abt the legal status of this. A vendor has every right to give incentives.
Also MAS directive is not law. CPF ones are. What should happen is, when banks are found in violation of MAS directive, at worse MAS will revoke bank's license.
But u can have financial entities that are not regulated under MAS, who are not subjected to MAS rules anyway. In HK LKS did it already. He offered loans to his buyers a package that are not subjected to the HK equivalent of MAS restrictions. (eventually he stopped it though. Actuallyit was done by his ka kia without his knowledge. Like not giving face to Tseng like that. )
Politically incorrect to say so but reflects real situation in many countries that "legal" offences depends on who create them & many has nothing to do with upholding moral values.
It is illegal because it reduces taxes for govt. If it increases taxes, then it can be made legal.
Ur argument is flawed. Here gov can also collect higher stamp duty too.
I personally am unclear abt the legal status of this. A vendor has every right to give incentives.
Also MAS directive is not law. CPF ones are. What should happen is, when banks are found in violation of MAS directive, at worse MAS will revoke bank's license.
But u can have financial entities that are not regulated under MAS, who are not subjected to MAS rules anyway. In HK LKS did it already. He offered loans to his buyers a package that are not subjected to the HK equivalent of MAS restrictions. (eventually he stopped it though. Actuallyit was done by his ka kia without his knowledge. Like not giving face to Tseng like that. )
I'm trying to poke fun at the point which developers can set their own pricing and give cash back incentive but individual sellers cannot determine the cash arrangement part :) CPF is your own $ anyway.
thomastansb
29-01-11, 09:07
Sometimes, you have to accept things as it is. Government already say cashback is illegal because you are cheating the bank. Even got precedent cases as references. You cannot say if this is like this, then everything also must be like this.
Of course, you can always argue about many things with the Government. Tell them you open IR, I also open IR at my house. Or you run your own 4D outlet at your house. See what you get... Also tell them you don't mind paying taxes to them. Try them..
my comment was:
"If all parties know about (including bank), and terms properly listed out, then it is not illegal."
thomastan replied it was illegal.
In FEO case, all the parties involved, buyer, seller (developer), bank, government are aware, so why is it allowed (if thomastan said was correct, therefore illegal)?
I remember having to sign some declaration in the legal papers for the bank that says that there is no cashback from the transaction.
How will this be done in the case of FEO's 5% cashback. Will the bank reassess your loan, based on the net sum :beats-me-man:
Politically incorrect to say so but reflects real situation in many countries that "legal" offences depends on who create them & many has nothing to do with upholding moral values.
you not scared Patricia say you talk rubbish?:D
Sometimes, you have to accept things as it is. Government already say cashback is illegal because you are cheating the bank. Even got precedent cases as references. You cannot say if this is like this, then everything also must be like this.
........
How can you be cheating the bank if the bank is aware and made aware of the conditions? and still approved of the loan.
My stance was it is legal as long as ALL parties are made aware of it.
If the bank is aware of it, and refused to loan the money, it is their right.
If the bank is aware and made aware of it, and continue to loan the money, (wether or not there will be an adjustment to quantum loan), then there is nothing wrong.
Don't tell me the bank is willing to be "cheated"?
I think I am in the same situation as when Proud Owner and Thomastan talk about that agent thing :doh:
kingkong1984
29-01-11, 10:50
Including the goby! Goby aware.
I believe most forumers here know very well his/her habit of 1-liner garbage so much so as to ignore them than take it seriously? :cheers1:
you not scared Patricia say you talk rubbish?:D
double posting
you not scared Patricia say you talk rubbish?:D
Above the banks is MAS governing their behaviour. This is tentamount to deliberately circumventing cooling policies put in place. If so, can everyone double the transaction price, rebate half the amount back to the buyer so that the buyer and effectively making it a 100% or greater LTV? So they can even afford a thorough reno??
Above the banks is MAS governing their behaviour. This is tentamount to deliberately circumventing cooling policies put in place. If so, can everyone double the transaction price, rebate half the amount back to the buyer so that the buyer and effectively making it a 100% or greater LTV? So they can even afford a thorough reno??
Didn't Wild Falcon post an article about banks getting creative in this thread?
How after sold off 1st property, LTV60% change to LTV80%? :D
After all, one of the measures said "second mortgage is LTV60%". But creative intepretation doesnt forbid second mortgage become 1st mortgage after first property is sold off. Still within the measures.
So IMO, your suggestion is pretty valid afterall.;) i feel kind of stupid that I didnt think of this first :ashamed1:
thomastansb
29-01-11, 20:15
Then you go and try them. Don't ask me. Go challenge the government and reason with them. I only know it is illegal and I know why it is illegal. You go try them and let me know if you manage to reason your way through.
How can you be cheating the bank if the bank is aware and made aware of the conditions? and still approved of the loan.
My stance was it is legal as long as ALL parties are made aware of it.
If the bank is aware of it, and refused to loan the money, it is their right.
If the bank is aware and made aware of it, and continue to loan the money, (wether or not there will be an adjustment to quantum loan), then there is nothing wrong.
Don't tell me the bank is willing to be "cheated"?
I think I am in the same situation as when Proud Owner and Thomastan talk about that agent thing :doh:
just to share without naming parties, went to couple of previews last week.
one bank offered a separate term loan on your existing private property, for those with difficulty bridging that 40% quantum.
just to share without naming parties, went to couple of previews last week.
one bank offered a separate term loan on your existing private property, for those with difficulty bridging that 40% quantum.
mind to share how t work?
this is only for those with private property.
assuming your present property is valued at 1.5mil, you have 200k outstanding loan and used 500k cpf. then the term loan applicable is 1.5mil - 200k - 500k = 800k term loan.
so the person takes 2 loans - for the new property as well as the term loan.
this loophole may probably be plugged soon, once more people discuss it. sounds very tempting, but we got to be more careful with over-leveraging, until the market direction becomes clearer.
sooner or later, there'll be no room for creative interpretation.
kingkong1984
30-01-11, 08:56
this is only for those with private property.
assuming your present property is valued at 1.5mil, you have 200k outstanding loan and used 500k cpf. then the term loan applicable is 1.5mil - 200k - 500k = 800k term loan.
so the person takes 2 loans - for the new property as well as the term loan.
this loophole may probably be plugged soon, once more people discuss it. sounds very tempting, but we got to be more careful with over-leveraging, until the market direction becomes clearer.
More like getting out of landed to a condo right? How do they charge interest? What if after term loan n value goes down 10%? And for both properties... Fire sales?
You mean take 2 loan for same property or 1 each for different property?
What sort of interest rate for the term loan? :)
this is only for those with private property.
assuming your present property is valued at 1.5mil, you have 200k outstanding loan and used 500k cpf. then the term loan applicable is 1.5mil - 200k - 500k = 800k term loan.
so the person takes 2 loans - for the new property as well as the term loan.
this loophole may probably be plugged soon, once more people discuss it. sounds very tempting, but we got to be more careful with over-leveraging, until the market direction becomes clearer.
2 separate loan for 2 different properties - you one you are eyeing and your current property.
that term loan can be taken as a bridging loan for those who do not have that 40% quantum. the computation is as indicated earlier. interest given last week was sibor + 0.7% (1st year), sibor + 0.8% (2nd year) & sibor + 0.9% (3rd year).
the above is only for those with private property and want to re-invest in another property. whether they want to convert from landed to condo or not is another matter. think of it as re-mortgage.
the 2nd loan is 60% loan for the new property in question. interest quoted last week was sibor + 0.75%.
there will always be creative re-packaging.
just remember not to over-leverage.
rattydrama
30-01-11, 16:02
this is only for those with private property.
assuming your present property is valued at 1.5mil, you have 200k outstanding loan and used 500k cpf. then the term loan applicable is 1.5mil - 200k - 500k = 800k term loan.
so the person takes 2 loans - for the new property as well as the term loan.
this loophole may probably be plugged soon, once more people discuss it. sounds very tempting, but we got to be more careful with over-leveraging, until the market direction becomes clearer.
I dont think it is creative. It is legal but alot of us never think about this. One of the forumer actually mentioned this before as an alternative/option. down payment of 40% its super safe to the bank. Should not have over-leverage issue unless the property price drop 40%.
Its called home equity loan.
kingkong1984
30-01-11, 17:07
Simple terms, assuming u have one 1 million property and u plan to get another one. The first one is 80% paid. So u take 40% for both without any cash outlay... Nothing illegal about it, just whether u want to take the risk, buy another one with SSD that will kill u....
Tricky sums, easier to decide if 1 million is fully paid, got 20% buffer..
More like restructure for hard times ahead than to buy another one.
rattydrama
30-01-11, 21:17
Simple terms, assuming u have one 1 million property and u plan to get another one. The first one is 80% paid. So u take 40% for both without any cash outlay... Nothing illegal about it, just whether u want to take the risk, buy another one with SSD that will kill u....
Tricky sums, easier to decide if 1 million is fully paid, got 20% buffer..
More like restructure for hard times ahead than to buy another one.
usually only do this if the market drop big time say 20% and you predict to bounce in the next 2-3 years.
If anyone hit this, can save 10-15 years of working life.
anyone want to try?
how different is it from:
FEO is also offering early-bird buyers a five percent cash rebate, which will be paid out only after the completion of the project. This move is in line with the developer’s aim to build a stronger base of long-term buyers, said The Straits Times.
Hi guys,
A question on this scheme is whether FEO will still honor the 5% cash rebate if you have sold off the unit before TOP? In most cases, developers will issue the rebate as a "renovation grant" or "renovation something" , so if you no longer have the unit, they can technically not pay you the rebate upon TOP?
usually only do this if the market drop big time say 20% and you predict to bounce in the next 2-3 years.
If anyone hit this, can save 10-15 years of working life.
anyone want to try?
Anyone who has caught the compressed peak, trough and peak again from mid 2006 to now would have indeed shaved 10-15 years of working life.
rattydrama
31-01-11, 14:22
Anyone who has caught the compressed peak, trough and peak again from mid 2006 to now would have indeed shaved 10-15 years of working life.
Yes true, my colleague did just that- over-leveraged and over stretched in those days when price was still not at the bottom. (How to predict?). However, since the last bull run, can now retire soundly.
But had advised against doing it cos suffered sleepless nights.
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