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DaytonaSS

07-02-11, 11:48

Some grd rules pls.

1) no names calling pls
2) pls sustain sharing with data.

bros whom love to share pls post here instead. The old thread can let them continue.

stalingrad

07-02-11, 11:52

teddy and his mistress are not welcome here. :D

proud owner

07-02-11, 11:53

teddy and his mistress are not welcome here. :D

aiya

Daytonass just said let them continue over there ...

and you start it here ...!^%#^#*(&$%(*$ ahhahaha

DaytonaSS

07-02-11, 12:08

teddybear

07-02-11, 12:10

My maiden contribution here:

---------------------
PROPERTY | Staff Reporter, Singapore
Published: 26 Jan 11

Mass-market home prices to ease 2% in 2011

The outlook for the private residential market is cautiously optimistic in 2011.
According to Colliers International, the number of new homes sold by developers is thus expected to taper off from 2010's high to a more sustainable level in 2011, possibly hovering in the region of 10,000 units.
Overall private residential home prices are expected to rise at a more moderate pace of 5% to 8% in 2011. Prices for mass-market homes are expected to remain stable or to ease by up to 2% while prices of mid- and high-end properties could potentially increase by up to 8%.
On the leasing front, the expected rise in expatriate arrivals will lend support to demand, with rents potentially rising by between 5% and 8% in 2011.

Some grd rules pls.

1) no names calling pls
2) pls sustain sharing with data.

bros whom love to share pls post here instead. The old thread can let them continue.

DaytonaSS

07-02-11, 12:16

My maiden contribution here:

---------------------
PROPERTY | Staff Reporter, Singapore
Published: 26 Jan 11

Mass-market home prices to ease 2% in 2011

The outlook for the private residential market is cautiously optimistic in 2011.
According to Colliers International, the number of new homes sold by developers is thus expected to taper off from 2010's high to a more sustainable level in 2011, possibly hovering in the region of 10,000 units.
Overall private residential home prices are expected to rise at a more moderate pace of 5% to 8% in 2011. Prices for mass-market homes are expected to remain stable or to ease by up to 2% while prices of mid- and high-end properties could potentially increase by up to 8%.
On the leasing front, the expected rise in expatriate arrivals will lend support to demand, with rents potentially rising by between 5% and 8% in 2011.

Following your sharing on Paterson , Teddy did u analysis Paterson region's pricing? I think the area is quiet nice. Wat r ur thoughs on the price movement. If 2011 CCR price correct some more, say 5-8% , it will definately look more attractive relative to OCR all time peak price.

proud owner

07-02-11, 12:16

Everyone welcome to share their views keeping to first 2 points.

Pertaining to new launches continuing to do well in OCR, it's very interesting to see if OCR will again out perform. Waterfront Isle seems to be selling well.

my personal opinion is that OCR will not perform as well (as last yr) as CCR this yr

i get the feeling govt is targetting mass mkt ..its running away too quickly .

and before HDB owners start complaining that its getting impossible to UPGRADE ... govt will implement measures that will eventually / indirectly slow down the price rally in this sector

DaytonaSS

07-02-11, 12:28

my personal opinion is that OCR will not perform as well (as last yr) as CCR this yr

i get the feeling govt is targetting mass mkt ..its running away too quickly .

and before HDB owners start complaining that its getting impossible to UPGRADE ... govt will implement measures that will eventually / indirectly slow down the price rally in this sector

Proud , u seems to own at least 1 or more property, if interest rates goes up to say avg 3.5% will it hit u hard? The qn that I m most interested to know is affordability.

The rally in OCR region issit supported by income n cash flow? Probably to sustain a lifestyle in condo n car, I m thinking min household income should be 10k. Seems like quiet a high % of pple in the 30's age band is in this category.

At the present govt stance, I do agree the price rally will not ran too far for OCR properties that are already valued at or near to 1k Psf

teddybear

07-02-11, 12:36

From an online commentary:
-----------------

Singapore Property Market Sentiment Significantly Affected By New Measures

http://www.propwise.sg/wp-content/uploads/110119-Property-measures-harsh-enough-to-prevent-bubble.gif

In a recent survey I carried out to Propwise.sg subscribers, 66% of the 269 respondents believe that the current fourth round of property control measures by the government are sufficiently harsh to prevent the formation (or worsening) of a property bubble in Singapore.

71% of the respondents believe that property prices will stay flat or go down in 2011 as a result of the measures, a sharp contrast to the majority of analysts who had forecasted continued property price appreciation for this year before the measures were announced. Many believe that the measures would severely restrict the buying pool to just new home buyers, making it difficult for investors, speculators and even some upgraders from buying.

Of the 29% of respondents who thought that prices would still continue to appreciate in 2011, the low interest rate environment, strong economy and low unemployment levels were cited as reasons for the continued strength of the market despite the measures.

http://www.propwise.sg/wp-content/uploads/110119-Where-do-you-think-prices-are-going-in-2011.png (http://www.propwise.sg/wp-content/uploads/110119-Where-do-you-think-prices-are-going-in-2011.png)

31% of respondents were putting off any further property investments for the time being due to the measures, suggesting that the near term pool of buyers and thus strength of demand would be weaker going forward. On the selling side, only 7% of respondents were looking to sell their property soon before the market got worse, possibly a result of the strong balance sheet of the sellers. With buyers holding back and sellers not desperate to sell, transaction volumes are likely to plummet, making the life of a property agent difficult indeed.

http://www.propwise.sg/wp-content/uploads/110119-property-investor-sentiment.png (http://www.propwise.sg/wp-content/uploads/110119-property-investor-sentiment.png)

The measures were also criticized by some respondents for preventing genuine buyers and upgraders from making their purchases. The high amount of cash required to buy the second property would present a significant stumbling block for the average Singaporean.

Investors would also be forced to think hard about keeping their property for the long term as they cannot expect to flip it for a profit upon TOP as they did in the past – their focus will have to shift from capital appreciation to rental yield. Also, with the higher downpayment requirement for a second and greater mortgage, the return on capital will have declined, making property a less attractive investment for some.

There was also some feedback about how the measures have not differentiated between locals and foreigners. In fact, some believe the measures actually tilt the playing field in favour of cash-rich foreigners who could then take advantage of any weakness in the market to pick up more properties at bargain prices.
Interestingly, long term investors have not been deterred by the measures – 55% of the respondents were keen on making a property investment if prices fell. The main issue was on how severe the fall in prices would be. Unless there was an external crisis of some sort, the situation was not likely to be as bad as during the Asian Crisis post-1998 due to the ample liquidity in the system. Some respondents thought a fall in prices of 10% to 15% would be sufficient to lure them back into the market.
Some interesting comments from respondents

“As long as Singapore economy is still doing well and the low interest rate environment is still there, property will continue to do well too. Unemployment is very low plus incremental wages are all fee good factors. Don’t forget, stock market will continue to do well this year as Asia is still booming.”

“Buyers of shoe-box units (cubicles) of 350 to 500 sq ft (Mickey Mouse units) are another significant culprit contributing to rising property prices. Though the quantum payment is small and hence affordable, in terms of $psf, it is a quantum leap. This gives the developers the boldness to keep raising their prices to well beyond $1,000 psf even in far-flung places as Choa Chu Kang and Yishun on 99-year leasehold land. The government should therefore forbid the building of homes below a certain built-in area. Having said all this, I am more than convinced that current prices are highly inflated and not sustainable.”

“I think it is not so much of preventing a property bubble as we are already in a bubble. It should be more of how to downsize/deflate the bubble gradually without bursting it.”

“Now that I can no longer make money investing on properties in Singapore, I will be looking more actively on overseas properties (ie. UK).”
“Speculators’ sentiments will be dampened but hopefully first-time buyers and cash-rich upgraders will benefit from this move. ”
“Unlike 96 and 07, the market today is flooded with cash. There is enough liquidity now to see prices going up for a while, at least for this year. After that, anyway, it’s 2012. We need not worry about property prices when the world is coming to an end, do we?”

Thanks to all who participated in the survey – I hope the results are interesting and beneficial to all. Have further (respectful and considered) thoughts and opinions? Add them to the comments below!

DaytonaSS

07-02-11, 12:37

At the slightly over 1k Psf, some RCR looks pretty good also.

UNIT AT QUEENS SELLS AT $1,148*PSF
Posted by luxuryasiahome on February 6, 2011 · Leave a Comment*
Homeowners who have kept their units at Queens since their launch in 2000 have seen prices appreciate over the years. Recently, some took the opportunity to cash out as prices climbed above $1,100 psf, booking gains of more than 50%.
Last year, prices hit a high of $1,284 psf when a 914 sq ft unit on the 38th floor was sold for $1.175 million in November. This is close to the peak of $1,328 psf when a 1,237 sq ft unit on the 38th floor was sold for $1.644 million in August 2000.
The 722-unit, 99-year leasehold Queens comprises three 39-storey towers. Located along Stirling Road and just a short walk to the Queenstown MRT station, the condominium was developed by Allgreen Properties and completed in 2002. Danny Jang, an agent with Zonelink, says the condo is popular with families as it is near good schools such as Global Indian International School, Tisch School of the Arts Asia, and Crescent Girl’s School. It is also near eateries and shops at IKEA, Queensway Shopping Centre, Anchorpoint and car show rooms along Alexandra Road.
Jang, who is marketing a 1,195 sq ft, three-bedroom unit for $1,255 psf, says there continues to be good buying interest in the property. “You can’t get this kind of pricing for homes in this area.” For instance, the most recent transaction at the 382-unit The Metropolitan Condominium along Alexander View Road was for a 1,033 sq ft unit on the 22nd floor for $1.3 million ($1,276 psf) on Dec 30. Jang says the two-year-old The Metropolitan probably commands a higher price as the development is newer and its units come with balconies. The older units at Queens do not have balconies.
Jang notes that another reason for strong interest in Queens is the healthy rental yield — a three-bedroom unit fetches about $4,600 to $5,000 a month. “There are a number of Japanese tenants in the condo. Queens tends to attract interest from Japanese expatriates.” Thomas Gay, a property agent with DTZ who is marketing a three-bedroom unit at $4,800 a month, concurs with Jang.
There were three transactions at Queens on Jan 4, with prices ranging from $1,055 to $1,148 psf. A 1,194.8 sq ft, three-bedroom unit on the 9th floor changed hands at $1.26 million ($1,055 psf). That’s a 48% gain for the previous owner who bought the unit for $850,000 ($711 psf) in 2000.
Meanwhile, a 914 sq ft, two-bedroom unit on the 11th floor was sold for $1.05 million ($1,148 psf). That represents a gain of 60% for the seller who purchased the unit for $657,000 ($718 psf) in 2000.
On another block, a 1,194.8 sq ft unit on the 17th floor was sold for $1.3 million ($1,088 psf), translating to an 83% gain for the seller who paid $710,000 ($594 psf) for it in 2002.
Source : The Edge – 31 Jan 2011
**

proud owner

07-02-11, 12:46

Proud , u seems to own at least 1 or more property, if interest rates goes up to say avg 3.5% will it hit u hard? The qn that I m most interested to know is affordability.

The rally in OCR region issit supported by income n cash flow? Probably to sustain a lifestyle in condo n car, I m thinking min household income should be 10k. Seems like quiet a high % of pple in the 30's age band is in this category.

At the present govt stance, I do agree the price rally will not ran too far for OCR properties that are already valued at or near to 1k Psf

personally i will be ok ..even rates go to 3.5pct ...

i have written this many yrs ago in my early post in this forum : greed and fear

greed makes people rush in to buy .. follow the crowd / herd instinct
fear holds people back from selling ( what is it goes higher)
fear holds people back from buying ( what is it collapses tmr)

if you can understand the above ... and consciously NOT fall into it .. do your sums . test with numbers ... and if you can pass those tests ..then you know you are fine and can comfortably go in and buy / sell

i am not familiar with the $$ situations are of majority ... but i constantly fear and worry for those so call UPGRADERS ... they probably dont understand or have a different opinion of the meaning of UPGRADING ..

like selling HDB to buy a condo in his own HDB estate .. 99LH condos ... paying double the price for a same size condo ...
to me thats not upgrading

Or , in order to upgrade, but due to $$ constraint, end up buying smaller condos ... in the same location ...

i worry for them .. cos when the dip comes ... they stand to lose the most

there are those who sell HDB and buy a MM condo in CCR ... ok ..to some degree..thats upgrading ...at least to a better location ...

as to whether 10k household income is sufficient to withstand a rise in mortgage ..it really depends on the mortgage amt ... and if there are other commitments ..

i feel 10k is a little tight ... considering the cost of living in singapore has gone up significantly in the last few years

then again i have friends...couple with no kids...both working as air steward/stewardess ... the can afford a condo + a brand new porsche .. i blur ahahhaha

just hope people do their sums first ...

anywya ...govt wont step in ..if the people can afford right?

fact that we have a few measures now .. i am pretty certain they have enuff evidents that people are over stretched ...

teddybear

07-02-11, 12:48

Yes, I am very familiar with the whole of Orchard area, not just Paterson area. Long-term wise it is worth investing (property investment is for long-term away, short-term would be better off with equities and derivatives).
If we look at Paterson Suites at $25xx psf (poor facing units) vs The Vision@West Coast selling about $1200 psf or Crabelle selling at $9xx psf, which is much more value and under-valued is very obvious. :cheers1:

Following your sharing on Paterson , Teddy did u analysis Paterson region's pricing? I think the area is quiet nice. Wat r ur thoughs on the price movement. If 2011 CCR price correct some more, say 5-8% , it will definately look more attractive relative to OCR all time peak price.

Regulators

07-02-11, 12:48

DaytonaSS

07-02-11, 12:51

Yes, I am very familiar with the whole of Orchard area, not just Paterson area. Long-term wise it is worth investing (property investment is for long-term away, short-term would be better off with equities and derivatives).
If we look at Paterson Suites at $25xx psf (poor facing units) vs The Vision@West Coast selling about $1200 psf or Crabelle selling at $9xx psf, which is much more value and under-valued is very obvious. :cheers1:

At wat price Psf would u buy into Paterson development. Avg price?

teddybear

07-02-11, 12:57

Generally agreed with your concern and comments. I am also concerned for the HDB upgraders upgrading to condos in same heartland housing estate at >$1000 psf! Their "upgrading" is not just paying double but almost tripled their HDB flats prices in $PSF! Many of these are the over-stretched lot lured by the low interest rates and thinking of easy money to be earned from properties. Many I believe simultaneous held on their HDB flats when they can ill-afford to hold both especially when interest rate raises. If we look at how hot the new launch sales are while the resale prices are laggards, there are reasons to believe many of these people are just buying to flip without having to pay down in full the downpayments and loan drawn-down. :scared-1:

personally i will be ok ..even rates go to 3.5pct ...

i have written this many yrs ago in my early post in this forum : greed and fear

greed makes people rush in to buy .. follow the crowd / herd instinct
fear holds people back from selling ( what is it goes higher)
fear holds people back from buying ( what is it collapses tmr)

if you can understand the above ... and consciously NOT fall into it .. do your sums . test with numbers ... and if you can pass those tests ..then you know you are fine and can comfortably go in and buy / sell

i am not familiar with the $$ situations are of majority ... but i constantly fear and worry for those so call UPGRADERS ... they probably dont understand or have a different opinion of the meaning of UPGRADING ..

like selling HDB to buy a condo in his own HDB estate .. 99LH condos ... paying double the price for a same size condo ...
to me thats not upgrading

Or , in order to upgrade, but due to $$ constraint, end up buying smaller condos ... in the same location ...

i worry for them .. cos when the dip comes ... they stand to lose the most

there are those who sell HDB and buy a MM condo in CCR ... ok ..to some degree..thats upgrading ...at least to a better location ...

as to whether 10k household income is sufficient to withstand a rise in mortgage ..it really depends on the mortgage amt ... and if there are other commitments ..

i feel 10k is a little tight ... considering the cost of living in singapore has gone up significantly in the last few years

then again i have friends...couple with no kids...both working as air steward/stewardess ... the can afford a condo + a brand new porsche .. i blur ahahhaha

just hope people do their sums first ...

anywya ...govt wont step in ..if the people can afford right?

fact that we have a few measures now .. i am pretty certain they have enuff evidents that people are over stretched ...

teddybear

07-02-11, 13:00

Can't really say and I would avoid to name a price in case I am blamed for misleading / making you lose money. :o
Furthermore, there are a few developments there and their values varies according to the attractiveness of the estates. ;)

At wat price Psf would u buy into Paterson development. Avg price?

proud owner

07-02-11, 13:13

OCR will continue to perform if supported by rental demand. An illustration of how rental affects condo prices can be seen in Queens (http://www.propertyguru.com.sg/property-management-news/2011/2/29651/queens-unit-prices-continue-to-rise). If condos in the CCR do not have rental demand to back it up, investors will want to park their money in places that offer better yield. Some might argue that the prospects of cap appreciation is higher in the CCR, but would prices be driven up senselessly in the CCR now with cooling measures in place against speculation? Buyers would want to justify their purchases with something solid such as rental demand and yield, which explains why condos in the OCR will continue to see an uptrend due to rental demand.

i read the link on Queens ..
it said a 9th flr unit was sold for 1.26mio = 1055 psf ...
but i know a 7th flr was sold at 12xx psf last yr ... does it mean prices actually lower ?

so has buying returned becos prices has fallen ?

any idea how big is the 3 bedroom ?
could it be the 3 bedrooms are bigger hence can fetch a higher rent ?

Regulators

07-02-11, 13:20

Prices for a resale condo tend to be erratic, meaning lower floors can sometimes sell higher than higher floors coz buyers and sellers do not always have excess to info. I think a more accurate way is to look at the median transacted psf for the project
i read the link on Queens ..
it said a 9th flr unit was sold for 1.26mio = 1055 psf ...
but i know a 7th flr was sold at 12xx psf last yr ... does it mean prices actually lower ?

so has buying returned becos prices has fallen ?

any idea how big is the 3 bedroom ?
could it be the 3 bedrooms are bigger hence can fetch a higher rent ?

DaytonaSS

07-02-11, 13:34

Can't really say and I would avoid to name a price in case I am blamed for misleading / making you lose money. :o
Furthermore, there are a few developments there and their values varies according to the attractiveness of the estates. ;)

No worries abt that. I saw a transaction at Paterson residence in Jan for 2100++ Psf for a 1500sqft property. Though it's a good buy. Want your opinion for reference.

teddybear

07-02-11, 13:39

Wah! Next time got such deal let me know! :hungry: :)
My opinion is Paterson Residence and Paterson Suites should roughly transact at about same $PSF. :cheers1:

No worries abt that. I saw a transaction at Paterson residence in Jan for 2100++ Psf for a 1500sqft property. Though it's a good buy. Want your opinion for reference.

saab-93

07-02-11, 15:47

[quote=teddybear]Yes, I am very familiar with the whole of Orchard area, not just Paterson area. Long-term wise it is worth investing (property investment is for long-term away, short-term would be better off with equities and derivatives).

How about Waterscape @ Cavenagh, can buy? The units don't seem to be selling. The price for a low flr pool facing unit of around 1300sf is around~1700 psf which is generally lower compared to the other D9 developments. Seems to me like an OCR within the CCR.

devilplate

07-02-11, 15:48

teddybear

07-02-11, 15:51

Pardon me saying - That place not worth it. You go and take a look you will know. That place those facing Instana most likely will get hit with security screens or restrictions of windows opening etc, while directly behind is that big wide CTE! Front road during big events (e.g. AP Forum) will be closed for specific hours. I still don't know how residents can get in and out when road closed. :scared-3:

How about Waterscape @ Cavenagh, can buy? The units don't seem to be selling. The price for a low flr pool facing unit of around 1300sf is around~1700 psf which is generally lower compared to the other D9 developments. Seems to me like an OCR within the CCR.

saab-93

07-02-11, 15:55

[quote=saab-93]

the new saab95 pretty macho....but vy obscure brand here

For the price it is going for, it will remain obscure!!!

devilplate

07-02-11, 15:58

[quote=devilplate]

For the price it is going for, it will remain obscure!!!

ya lor...similar price to audi a4 2.0T....LOL

saab-93

07-02-11, 16:12

Pardon me saying - That place not worth it. You go and take a look you will know. That place those facing Instana most likely will get hit with security screens or restrictions of windows opening etc, while directly behind is that big wide CTE! Front road during big events (e.g. AP Forum) will be closed for specific hours. I still don't know how residents can get in and out when road closed. :scared-3:

No worries no offence taken. Firesale upon TOP you reckon?

I was just wondering it may be worth it for own stay taking into consideration that it is quite close to Orchard Road and pretty accessible to particular anywhere.

teddybear

07-02-11, 17:04

Firesale I am not sure. Buyers in Orchard usually have holding power, so firesales are rare. My opinion is that place is a poorer cousin to Claymore/Ardmore and Paterson area. Unless that place the $PSF is so much cheaper than the other areas and you want for own stay, otherwise the other area is better buy. Rental seems to be better at other side too.

No worries no offence taken. Firesale upon TOP you reckon?

I was just wondering it may be worth it for own stay taking into consideration that it is quite close to Orchard Road and pretty accessible to particular anywhere.

saab-93

07-02-11, 19:49

amk

07-02-11, 21:03

OCR will continue to perform if supported by rental demand..

When u say "perform", are u saying OCR projects that had already jumped 40 to 50% in 2009-10, or those already launched at 1kpsf, will continue "perform" another 10-20% ? I mean, really, Jurong at 1200 psf ?

I dun question the genuine demand for OCR mass market projects. The question is, has it reached a level that's simply not affordable anymore for the mass market ?

Prime segment has no real affordability issue. It's all sentiment driven. Once the feel good factor is in, another 10% is easily achievable. Most of these projects are still 10% below 2007 level.

gfoo

07-02-11, 21:06

yaay i found a nice place for a reasonable price, next to a great school, 5000 land area and 3300 built up. :p

let's see how the viewing goes this weekend

P.S. got such thing as 9999 years LH meh? also any lau chiaus can advise what to look out for if wanna lup swimming pool in garden?

Regulators

07-02-11, 21:57

I personally think $1.2k psf for mass OCR market condos will not be the norm, even though some FEO projects are transacted at these high prices. There is more upside to buying mi casa at 7xxpsf (estimated at 20% at least) as opposed to lakefront at 1.2k psf if you are talking about cap appreciation. If foreigners are increasingly looking into buying / renting places like Jurong and the outlying areas, shifting their focus away from prime, condos in the OCR at 6xx-7xxpsf could see a spike of 20-30% in maybe the next couple of years. In the next few years, OCR projects will be driven up a lot by govt announcements in individual estates, but that being said, prices will also be adjusted downwards by rising interest rates. I personally won't bother buying a new project in the next few years unless the price is attractive. I believe buying an older condo backed by good rental returns is the way forward. :2cents:

Suburban homes in high demand

by Jo-Ann Huang Limin

05:55 AM Jan 21, 2011

SINGAPORE - Once living in the shadow of their inner-city and city fringe cousins, suburban residential properties are now stepping out on their own - with some of these properties located in more remote areas only accessible by feeder buses and light rail transit (LRT).

And property experts say such mass market homes remain in high demand from owner-occupiers, who are unscathed by the new round of cooling measures that target mainly speculators.

The Tennery, one of Far East Organization's newest properties, is a prime example of an outlying property hot in demand. According to Far East Organization, more than 90 per cent of the 338 units - 620 sq ft to 950 sq ft for one- and two bedroom units - have been sold.

Located at the crossroads of Woodlands Road and Bukit Panjang, The Tennery units sold at prices ranging from $1,118 to $1,317 per square foot (psf), according to December sales figures from the Urban Redevelopment Authority. The 16-storey property will be built above the Ten Mile Junction LRT station and the upcoming Junction 10 shopping mall.

A little over a year ago, a unit at another Far East Organization's property, Mi Casa in the Choa Chu Kang/Bukit Panjang area, transacted at a price of $692 psf in November 2009. Mi Casa's homes cater to families, with two- to four- bedroom units ranging from 990 sq ft to over 2,000 sq ft for the largest units.

Analysts say more home buyers and investors are looking at suburban properties, now that plans to revamp regional centres have been announced by both developers and the Government.

"Home buyers who are buying properties, especially those that are away from the city centre, are predominantly Singaporeans. Almost eight out of 10 of them will be Singaporeans. But we are also seeing an increasing number of foreigners - predominantly permanent residents - who are considering buying such properties, especially as Singapore increases its intake of immigrants," said Mr Nicholas Mak, research head at real estate consultancy SLP International.

And despite the new cooling measures, property developers are capitalising on the trend. For instance, CapitaLand is building a 24,902-sq-m mixed retail and residential property at Bedok Town Centre. The developer is also going ahead with plans to release the project's 500 units for sale this year, regardless of the new measures.

The property is located within a shopping catchment of 300,000 residents in the Bedok area, atop a new integrated bus and MRT interchange, and is a short walk from new and revamped family-friendly amenities.

Other suburban locations that may present property development opportunities is the Jurong Lake District - home to Jurong Gateway, Cleantech Park and a number of business and leisure destinations - as well as Seletar Hills, where The Greenwich retail and residential development was recently launched.

"Far-flung suburban properties tend to be more for owner occupation. If they are not very accessible to local transport, they tend to be less attractive to tenants. Therefore, investors would buy it only if they think there is good capital appreciation of some of these properties," said Mr Mak.

"Once the authorities have announced plans for a new MRT track or stations around the area, the owners of some of these properties would immediately increase their asking price," he added.

With the Government Land Sales programme set to release 10 sites on the confirmed list located near MRT stations this year, analysts expect new developments to break into these areas.

"Singapore has come a long way. In the past, if you had properties in places like Changi, it could take a long journey time of at least two hours to get to the city. But now, we have a good network of MRT and expressways in Singapore. And in that sense, some Singaporeans are looking at these properties in a better light," said Mr Colin Tan, head of research and consultancy at Chesterton Suntec International.

Investors who intend to ride on growing rentals can now look to suburban properties. As Singapore's population and economy grows, demand for rental properties in suburban areas will also be on the rise. Rentals grew by 27.5 per cent from November 2009 to November 2010.

Even buyers with deeper pockets are seeking out homes in suburban areas. Mid-tier developments such as Suites @ Eunos were sold at a median launch price of $1,339 psf, while The Lanai was sold at the latest price of $1,450 psf. Both properties are in the Outside Central Region, with Suites @ Eunos located at Jalan Yasin and The Lanai located near Hillview Avenue.

The sentiment for such homes will be affected by the new cooling measures but the effect will be short-lived, Mr Tan said.

"The market is just reeling from shock, but normal service will resume in a couple of weeks," he said.

When u say "perform", are u saying OCR projects that had already jumped 40 to 50% in 2009-10, or those already launched at 1kpsf, will continue "perform" another 10-20% ? I mean, really, Jurong at 1200 psf ?

I dun question the genuine demand for OCR mass market projects. The question is, has it reached a level that's simply not affordable anymore for the mass market ?

Prime segment has no real affordability issue. It's all sentiment driven. Once the feel good factor is in, another 10% is easily achievable. Most of these projects are still 10% below 2007 level.

gilaone

07-02-11, 22:25

My understanding is there are now 2 main property indexes: the URA index and the NUS srpi. These 2 indexes although both shoot up last year, it looks to me for OCR price hike this round, it was largely driven by new launch. The new launch (MM units) goes up to 1k psf while the resale old condo psf is still at 20-30% less than new launch. Is my observation correct? Is that a norm? Or did not misinterpret something?

I also have 1 question: If the price would to correct, which one will go down first -- new launch or resales? Which one will get harder hit?

devilplate

07-02-11, 22:34

teddybear

07-02-11, 23:14

I believe so, see below report.

When u say "perform", are u saying OCR projects that had already jumped 40 to 50% in 2009-10, or those already launched at 1kpsf, will continue "perform" another 10-20% ? I mean, really, Jurong at 1200 psf ?

I dun question the genuine demand for OCR mass market projects. The question is, has it reached a level that's simply not affordable anymore for the mass market ?

Prime segment has no real affordability issue. It's all sentiment driven. Once the feel good factor is in, another 10% is easily achievable. Most of these projects are still 10% below 2007 level.

14/01/2011
Latest round of cooling measures to hit mass market

http://sgstb.msn.com/i/B3/641845D6F81B3A35E04E89D5CF878.jpg
®Copyright MediaCorp

The latest round of property cooling measures announced by the government which kick in today, have sent ripples through the industry.

The Sellers Stamp Duty has been raised to 16% for property sold within a year, up from the previous 3%.

The maximum loan available to individuals buying their second property has also been reduced to 60%, down from 70%.

Analysts say the mass market will be hit the hardest as there's less profit to be made.

Our reporter Joanne Chan speaks to Vice Chairman of Cushman and Wakefield, Donald Han, to break down how the measures will impact consumers.

Donald, the government has introduced a new, fresh round of cooling measures that take effect from today. Why do you think they decided to take action so soon just after the August 30 measures?

Probably came about due to the fresh buying environment. Certainly we saw very strong numbers in November, hitting about 1900 new home sales. I suspect the December numbers look equally as strong, hitting close to 2,000 homes. So, in a typical calendar year of property sales, the end of the year is usually the quieter period. If you look at an example, at the end of 2009, sales transactions only hit a few hundred per month for the 4th quarter. So I think there's reason to suspect that high volume numbers will at some point of time, eventually, slowly but surely, create an uptake in prices as well.

Who exactly is the government targeting to remove?

I think the government is really targeting those buying and selling over the short and potentially even the medium term. I think they want buyers to come in and stay a little bit longer, in that sense. But it doesn't really deter people from buying and selling over the 2 or 3 year period, despite the measure targetting on 4-year holding period.

If you look at total cost, let's say you're buying in year one and selling in year one, your total additional cost in terms of sellers stamp duty plus agency fees, brokers fees, lawyers fees, sellers stamp duty as well, your first year holding could be about 20%. So if you estimate in one year, you're going to make much less than 20%, and you want to buy and sell within 1 year, that's not going to make sense. But that holding cost is going to start to reduce because of the regressive nature of the seller's stamp duty. So if you're looking into the 2nd year, buying and selling within 2 years, your holding cost over the 2-year period will reduce to 15%, and over the 3 year period, will reduce to 10% roughly.

What's your assessment then. Are we at that point in the market where sellers may not be that affected by the 10% additional cost?

I think it depends on the segment. If you're looking into the mass market segment, people on the lower, mid-end segment, I think we're going to see a stabilisation of prices. Ourselves, we think the market will move up to a 5% upward price movement, for this year and possibly next year as well. In that sense, the price movement will likely see a larger price quantum in the high-end segment because the goverment measures introduced target the mass market, more the affordables.

The high-end buyers are well-versed with the 50%, 60% LTV ratios, they've got more than enough cash to fork out. So less impact on the high-end. And I think the investors may target on the high-end, rather than target the mass market which pretty much has a limited upside in terms of investment value.

So high-end unlikely to be affected, but mass-market we might see some adjustments?

Correct, some adjustments, by virtue that demand has pretty much been sidelined. Some of the buyers coming from the HDB upgraders, the LTV ratio is now reduced to 60%. That's quite a huge whack on the wallet. So they have to be prepared to come up with 40% cash.

Why is it such a big hit to upgraders? I mean, if they are selling off their 1st property, it shouldn't be a big difference?

I think if you are looking at first time buyers applying for the first time, of course these rules don't impact and the benefit is for first-hand buyers. But if you've bought your first property, and now you're looking into your second property, if you're upgrading from an HDB to a private property, and assuming that the private property is under construction, where you have to pay progressive payments and all that, the loan quantum that's available to you is 60% of the value or the purchase price, whichever is lower, and you need to fork out 40% cash in that sense. And you're stuck with a property which you cannot sell until you have a place to move into, which is under construction and will only be ready in 2, 3 years time. So that will be a disincentive for crossover buyers into the private market. I guess it's alright for buyers who are crossing over into private property that already completed then you can do a back-to-back transaction of selling your HDB and moving into your new property.

How do you expect prices to be affect?

I think purely by slowing demand, if you have less of demand... a lot of supply coming up. Without 3rd round measures, we expect prices to move up.Because of the current measures, put stop to volume. If volume comes down, sales affected. Less possibility of developers raising prices. Less possibility of sellout projects. Slowflats will have fewer people. People wait for better signal before they put ink to the agreement. Had it not been for this measures, expected to grow at 5-8%. Now putting to at less than 5% and possibly even flat year for rest of 2011.

thomastansb

08-02-11, 08:26

Since Sep 2009, after the first cooling measure, people have been saying prices will drop. Then Feb 2010, analysts say property die already. I have been hearing mass market dropping for a year at least? Seriously, it is hard to tell. It just take 500 buyers in CCR, RCR or OCR to drive up prices by 15%. Imagine, 500 buyers snap up orchard properties. You think you still can find anything below 3000 psf after that? I think it is really hard to predict.

bargain hunter

08-02-11, 09:59

1195sq ft for 3 bedrooms at queens.

i read the link on Queens ..
it said a 9th flr unit was sold for 1.26mio = 1055 psf ...
but i know a 7th flr was sold at 12xx psf last yr ... does it mean prices actually lower ?

so has buying returned becos prices has fallen ?

any idea how big is the 3 bedroom ?
could it be the 3 bedrooms are bigger hence can fetch a higher rent ?

amk

08-02-11, 14:11

....There is more upside to buying mi casa at 7xxpsf (estimated at 20% at least) as opposed to lakefront at 1.2k psf if you are talking about cap appreciation. ...condos in the OCR at 6xx-7xxpsf could see a spike of 20-30% in maybe the next couple of years.
so what u r saying is, only those OCR projects that stayed at 6xx-7xx level will still have substantial upside going forward ? and those over 1kpsf ones, new or resale, will not see much upside in the short or medium term ?

Regulators

08-02-11, 14:22

would you buy lakefront at 1.3k psf? Would you expect this 99yr LH project to climb to 1.6k psf on TOP despite more possible cooing measures on the pipeline? Judging from the poor takeup rate of lakefront, don't you think it speaks a lot]
so what u r saying is, only those OCR projects that stayed at 6xx-7xx level will still have substantial upside going forward ? and those over 1kpsf ones, new or resale, will not see much upside in the short or medium term ?

amk

08-02-11, 14:36

u should know I'm pro CCR right now, so for me personally I will not even pay 900 for lake** projects;) that's not the point though.
my Q to u was to see if your opinion is that only 6xx-7xx OCR projects still have upside. so I take it as a yes ?

Regulators

08-02-11, 14:55

in comparison to the new projects around, yes, 6xxpsf is worthy of a gamble. If a new condo is selling at 100% higher than a nearby older condo, it won't take much to know that the older condo has room to catch up. That is the way I see it.
u should know I'm pro CCR right now, so for me personally I will not even pay 900 for lake** projects;) that's not the point though.
my Q to u was to see if your opinion is that only 6xx-7xx OCR projects still have upside. so I take it as a yes ?

Regulators

08-02-11, 15:04

For ocr condos, buyers might have placed too high a premium for newness, creating enormous price differences between old and new.

gilaone

08-02-11, 19:01

For ocr condos, buyers might have placed too high a premium for newness, creating enormous price differences between old and new.

This links back to my question in earlier post: If the price correct, will it hit the 600-700 psf old condo harder or it will hit the new lake** 1k psf harder? :confused:

Allthepies

08-02-11, 19:11

This links back to my question in earlier post: If the price correct, will it hit the 600-700 psf old condo harder or it will hit the new lake** 1k psf harder? :confused:

i would think it will hit the 1k psf harder; hdb is supporting the old condo @400-500psf

Montaigne

08-02-11, 20:14

DaytonaSS

08-02-11, 20:40

This links back to my question in earlier post: If the price correct, will it hit the 600-700 psf old condo harder or it will hit the new lake** 1k psf harder? :confused:

abit hard lah, for price to fall , there need to be panic due to super interest rates hike or hyper-inflation risk....

just dont see it happening at the present economic conditions(no including regional polictial risk) at least not in the next 2 years.

devilplate

08-02-11, 21:21

Hi, I am not sure where can I post this question. My relative told me that it is not advisable to buy low rise apartment because it canno tbe sold to foreigners. Is there such a rule? Under what circumstances we are not allowed to sell our property to foreigners? I know EC below 10 years have this rule.

ur relative super outdated liao....i tink he/she refering to apt status....

last time apartments cannot be sold to foreigners....and most apts(boutique apts) r low-rise...

devilplate

08-02-11, 21:25

This links back to my question in earlier post: If the price correct, will it hit the 600-700 psf old condo harder or it will hit the new lake** 1k psf harder? :confused:

from my own observation, only old old 99LH condos r hardest hit....FH condos usually less firesales....

unlikely to see lakefront firesale....unless a prolonged recession of let say >3yrs....2008-2009 recession was a super short and sweet one...:cheers6:

Regulators

08-02-11, 21:50

just to illustrate an example, the hdb flats in jurong east already more than 500psf, so to buy a condo nearby at 6xxpsf or 7xxpsf, it is a no brainer coz there is strong support
This links back to my question in earlier post: If the price correct, will it hit the 600-700 psf old condo harder or it will hit the new lake** 1k psf harder? :confused:

CCR

09-02-11, 00:38

Can someone help me confirm if CCR is just 1, 2, 9, 10 11 or it include district 3 and 4 ? And which district falls under RCR. Thanks....

Regulators

09-02-11, 00:47

This might help you better: http://property.sillydumb.com/district.php

Some places with similar district numbers can be either CCR or RCR / RCR or OCR so your question don't make much sense.

Can someone help me confirm if CCR is just 1, 2, 9, 10 11 or it include district 3 and 4 ? And which district falls under RCR. Thanks....

Regulators

09-02-11, 00:52

What denotes CCR, RCR and OCR is determined in URA's plan with clearly demarcated lines showing the three areas. For example, you can get parts of D15 in RCR and OCR

Can someone help me confirm if CCR is just 1, 2, 9, 10 11 or it include district 3 and 4 ? And which district falls under RCR. Thanks....

CCR

09-02-11, 01:19

So where can I find the clearly demarcated lines of URA plan?

Regulators

09-02-11, 01:48

most singapore map have those demarcated lines. I have a big map in my house, but can't upload it here
So where can I find the clearly demarcated lines of URA plan?

09-02-11, 18:13

So where can I find the clearly demarcated lines of URA plan?

Here you go...

http://spring.ura.gov.sg/lad/ore/login/map_ccr.pdf

Montaigne

09-02-11, 19:12

ur relative super outdated liao....i tink he/she refering to apt status....

last time apartments cannot be sold to foreigners....and most apts(boutique apts) r low-rise...

So if I bought an older apartment, can i sell to foreigners or am I subjected to the old rules? So to play safe, don't buy apartment status project?

devilplate

09-02-11, 19:25

So if I bought an older apartment, can i sell to foreigners or am I subjected to the old rules? So to play safe, don't buy apartment status project?

ALL types of PTE apt and condos can sell to foreigners now...

CCR

10-02-11, 00:39

Here you go...

http://spring.ura.gov.sg/lad/ore/login/map_ccr.pdf

Thanks man... Two questions

Is CCR all areas within the black demarcated lines or only 1,2,9,10,11?
Is pan dan valley condo under CCR?

hopeful

10-02-11, 02:01

So if I bought an older apartment, can i sell to foreigners or am I subjected to the old rules? So to play safe, don't buy apartment status project?

apartment status 5 floors or less, foreigners cannot buy.
if apartment have 20 stories, foreigners can buy ground floor :)

condo status are exempt from the restriction.

ocoloco79

10-02-11, 06:09

apartment status 5 floors or less, foreigners cannot buy.
if apartment have 20 stories, foreigners can buy ground floor :)

condo status are exempt from the restriction.

Is this updated?? If not then you are not right??

http://www.sla.gov.sg/htm/new/new2005/new0260.htm

teddybear

10-02-11, 07:12

Wah! You are "CCR" didn't understand CCR well? :D
The yellowish coloured region is the original genuine CCR, ie. D9-D11 (which also contains fake CCR region). The new CCR is the blue region D1 and D2 ("fake" new CCR regions). There may possibly be new CCR regions in future (of which the reasons for doing so are obvious). E.g. D1 & D2 get classified into "CCR" and price shoot up, somebody sells lots of 99years LH land very happy. This tactic quite good to them siah! :p

All other areas within black demarcated lines but exclude coloured regions RCR. Outside the black line is OCR. :cheers1:

Thanks man... Two questions

Is CCR all areas within the black demarcated lines or only 1,2,9,10,11?
Is pan dan valley condo under CCR?

hopeful

10-02-11, 08:33

Is this updated?? If not then you are not right??

http://www.sla.gov.sg/htm/new/new2005/new0260.htm

thanks for the update.:cheers1:

thomastansb

10-02-11, 08:36

CCR or not, I don't think it matters that much. Prices shoot up NOT because they are classified under CCR. I mean, it can only be CCR for a reason. Meaning near business center, prestigious, lots of investments etc. If you make woodlands CCR, seriously I don't think prices will go up. Instead, prices across Singapore will drop because we have a fool dividing the regions.

To me CCR is - D1, 2, 9, 10, 11 and half of 4 (Near Sentosa only)

Wah! You are "CCR" didn't understand CCR well? :D
The yellowish coloured region is the original genuine CCR, ie. D9-D11 (which also contains fake CCR region). The new CCR is the blue region D1 and D2 ("fake" new CCR regions). There may possibly be new CCR regions in future (of which the reasons for doing so are obvious). E.g. D1 & D2 get classified into "CCR" and price shoot up, somebody sells lots of 99years LH land very happy. This tactic quite good to them siah! :p

All other areas within black demarcated lines but exclude coloured regions RCR. Outside the black line is OCR. :cheers1:

proud owner

10-02-11, 08:39

thomastansb

10-02-11, 08:42

Somehow yes. Especially those near Balestier.

do u get the feeling D11 is a little borderline case ?

devilplate

10-02-11, 11:29

do u get the feeling D11 is a little borderline case ?

based on ur reasoning, every prime district aso borderline? remember mackenzie is D9?? across the rd is D8 liao....:D

maisonjai

10-02-11, 12:13

How about tanglin rd? One left turn, from D10 become D3 :D

DaytonaSS

10-02-11, 23:42

Tanglin is very nice area! Lush greenery n quiet , yet 5 mins from orchard belt. Wish could afford a property in that area

land118

10-02-11, 23:57

Tanglin is very nice area! Lush greenery n quiet , yet 5 mins from orchard belt. Wish could afford a property in that area
Nowadays strike big sweep also not enough to buy. Actually, come to think of it, place like Tanglin, Dempsey where have old colonial houses built by British all quite good location, think last time, angmo planners may hv assess terrain and pick good location....

DaytonaSS

11-02-11, 00:06

Nowadays strike big sweep also not enough to buy. Actually, come to think of it, place like Tanglin, Dempsey where have old colonial houses built by British all quite good location, think last time, angmo planners may hv assess terrain and pick good location....

Confirm they select the best location all ard botantical garden. Then they decide they want some shopping center n out come orchard road. Always drive along Ridley park n admire the beautiful houses there.
Tio 10m toto think also not enough to make 40% DP.

land118

11-02-11, 00:09

Confirm they select the best location all ard botantical garden. Then they decide they want some shopping center n out come orchard road. Always drive along Ridley park n admire the beautiful houses there.
Tio 10m toto think also not enough to make 40% DP.
:D , ya....must be damn Heng to be only 1 to tio $10m toto, some odd combination mix for 6 nos. , but mathematically still possible...

CCR

11-02-11, 00:10

Tangling the best Liao..... Marina bay no fight....

DaytonaSS

11-02-11, 00:26

Tangling the best Liao..... Marina bay no fight....

Marina bay will be gd for swinging young man! Maybe can get alot action? Anyone owns a unit that area?

DaytonaSS

11-02-11, 00:28

OCR got which condo got tons of pretty chick one? Any owners also see tons of beautiful gals on the pool?

orange

11-02-11, 04:38

do u get the feeling D11 is a little borderline case ?

Bukit timah quite nice what. Copthorne orchid that area quite posh.

melodies

11-02-11, 08:47

D11 even Balestier area is actually so much closer to city & Orchard than many D10 areas like Mt Sinai and Bukit Timah areas around Tessarina. Really depends what you need.

do u get the feeling D11 is a little borderline case ?

land118

11-02-11, 09:51

D11 even Balestier area is actually so much closer to city & Orchard than many D10 areas like Mt Sinai and Bukit Timah areas around Tessarina. Really depends what you need. Ya, for some reasons, D10 is fairly extensive. Wonder if this was district classification is done during British or PAP planners' era

teddybear

12-02-11, 21:53

First strong sign that cooling measures impact cheaper property units than top end homes.

==================
Business Times - 12 Feb 2011

Top end home loans not impacted: DBS

Cooling measures take toll on demand for cheaper units

By CONRAD TAN
THE recent government measures to cool the property market have hurt demand for new home loans at the lower end of the market, but not at the top end, DBS Group chief executive Piyush Gupta said yesterday. It's still 'too early' to tell how much impact the latest slew of government measures to cool the property market - announced on Jan 13 - has had on demand for home loans, Mr Gupta told reporters at a briefing on the bank's 2010 results.
'There's been a slowdown, but the slowdown also happened because of the Lunar New Year; that happens every year. So it's difficult for us to understand so far how much is the impact of the January guidelines and how much is the impact of the seasonality of the Lunar New Year.'
But since last August, when the first in the latest series of tighter financing and ownership rules was announced, the number of new home-loan applications has dropped at DBS and other banks.
'Our own general sense is that volumes will come off. We think these measures will have some impact,' said Mr Gupta.
But the cooling measures so far have had a greater impact on loan applications for cheaper properties, he said. 'Our observation after the August guidelines is that the top end of the market came off for a month or two and then bounced back. The lower end of the market - the smaller-value properties - came off and stayed off.'
One might see that with the latest measures announced in January, too, he added. 'There's still a lot of liquidity and demand at the top end.'
That was both a plus and a minus for DBS, he said. 'Our presence in the lower end of the market is much stronger than in the top end. So when you have a slowdown at the lower end, it hurts DBS.
'But some of the changes in the rules make it a lot more possible for us to approach the top end of the market' without taking on too much risk, because home buyers must now pay a higher proportion of a property's price in cash, he said.
As the bank expands its wealth-management business serving rich customers, 'we think we can start winning more share at the top end of the market that we've not done in the past', he said.
DBS had $38.7 billion worth of home loans on its books as at Dec 31, of which $28 billion were Singapore mortgages and $8 billion were Hong Kong mortgages.

devilplate

12-02-11, 21:56

top end had always been sluggish....so how to impact?

whereas high volume makers from mass market mah....definitely can feel the heat yay

teddybear

12-02-11, 22:00

westman

12-02-11, 22:05

What has top end sluggish to do with what DBS CEO said? :doh:
DBS CEO is comparing the demand for home loans before and after cooling measures and he found that after cooling measures the home loans from cheaper properties has significant drop vs loans for high end properties. Yes, that means volume down significantly for cheaper properties but about same for top end. He said that there are still a lot of liquidities and demand for top end and they are going to approach top end for more business.

Since early Jan 2010, banks/developers/agents all sing song that CCR luxury market will soar! What the outcome wor? Happened? Volume shot thru the roof? Till today, they are still singing about it... why hor? :confused:

devilplate

12-02-11, 22:05

teddybear

12-02-11, 22:49

1. That is not what I interpret, that is what DBS CEO has said.

2. Change in trend is more important to investment decision than maintaining status quo. High end has not gone anywhere yet since past 2 years so there will not be any panic. Change in trend of mass market property volumes and ultimately prices will start to create a lot of panic in future! :rolleyes:

ok lor if tats the way u interpret....but i can tell u....high end is not gg anywhr as well:p

kingkong1984

12-02-11, 22:55

High end, flat line.... and slightly up only while volume remain low.

Low end max 20 to 40 percent drop in worst case scenario. volume remain higher.

amk

13-02-11, 10:00

ok lor if tats the way u interpret....but i can tell u....high end is not gg anywhr as well:p

Aiyo bro this has nothing to do with interpretation lah. DBS CEO simply said high end loan still has demand and liquidity whereas low end ones dropped significantly. A simple fact. This is not analyst research or something. DBS is not a developer.

rattydrama

13-02-11, 10:44

High end, flat line.... and slightly up only while volume remain low.

Low end max 20 to 40 percent drop in worst case scenario. volume remain higher.

are u sure low end max 40%? U referring to psf price or what?

rattydrama

13-02-11, 10:47

ok lor if tats the way u interpret....but i can tell u....high end is not gg anywhr as well:p
I see pressure to push the high end condo now since dec till now. Lets see if any new buyers going to bite.:p :p :p

teddybear

13-02-11, 11:13

Don't understand what you said. DBS CEO is not the CEO of property developer company, why he care about pushing high end property sales? He is just commenting on their loan business based on the different segments: loans for mass market properties vs loans for high end properties. Because he sees more liquidity and demand for high-end property loans after cooling measures, he wanted to focus more on getting business in that segment!

I see pressure to push the high end condo now since dec till now. Lets see if any new buyers going to bite.:p :p :p

devilplate

13-02-11, 13:59

u guys had been saying high end buyer mostly buy without loan rite

tat DBS article vy funny leh....biz drop bopian say focus another segment lor...LOL

patricia

13-02-11, 14:28

What has top end sluggish to do with what DBS CEO said? :doh:
DBS CEO is comparing the demand for home loans before and after cooling measures and he found that after cooling measures the home loans from cheaper properties has significant drop vs loans for high end properties. Yes, that means volume down significantly for cheaper properties but about same for top end. He said that there are still a lot of liquidities and demand for top end and they are going to approach top end for more business.Aiyoo, try to highlight word and teach prople how to intepret. Bad manner again. People can have their own interpretation. He said high end(i.e your CCR) is sluggish (i.e. low volume) whereas the OCR (i.e others favorite) has high volumn and hence change in volume is significant. ..home loans from cheaper properties has significant drop (i.e drop in absolute volume) vs loans for high end properties. Stop your nuisance behavour:tsk-tsk:

teddybear

13-02-11, 14:32

Truth is, most high end buyers can buy without loans!
However with the unprecedented super low interest rates, they are taking advantage to borrow up to the max they can while using those cash spared out to dump into businesses which can definitely earn much more than the pathetic 1.2% interest they are paying. So simple you also don't understand? Very often by the way a person response & ask questions you know where they are. :p

u guys had been saying high end buyer mostly buy without loan rite

tat DBS article vy funny leh....biz drop bopian say focus another segment lor...LOL

devilplate

13-02-11, 16:20

Truth is, most high end buyers can buy without loans!
However with the unprecedented super low interest rates, they are taking advantage to borrow up to the max they can while using those cash spared out to dump into businesses which can definitely earn much more than the pathetic 1.2% interest they are paying. So simple you also don't understand? Very often by the way a person response & ask questions you know where they are. :p

watever...i jus merely repeating wat u said last time...high end buyers dun take loans....can hold hold hold...

now say they will take advantage of low interest...aiyo...cant be bothered by u ...LOL

melody

13-02-11, 16:48

DBS CEO say "high end is sluggish"? Where? You no eyes see? You hightlight for me where in the article the DBS CEO say "high end is sluggish"?
You put words into DBS CEO's mouth? You bloody liar and mongrel? :tongue3:
He did said high end less risk now! He also said "The lower end of the market - the smaller-value properties - came off and stayed off"! :eek:

Aiyoo, try to highlight word and teach prople how to intepret. Bad manner again. People can have their own interpretation. He said high end(i.e your CCR) is sluggish (i.e. low volume) whereas the OCR (i.e others favorite) has high volumn and hence change in volume is significant. ..home loans from cheaper properties has significant drop (i.e drop in absolute volume) vs loans for high end properties. Stop your nuisance behavour:tsk-tsk:

Business Times - 12 Feb 2011

Top end home loans not impacted: DBS

Cooling measures take toll on demand for cheaper units

By CONRAD TAN

THE recent government measures to cool the property market have hurt demand for new home loans at the lower end of the market, but not at the top end, DBS Group chief executive Piyush Gupta said yesterday. It's still 'too early' to tell how much impact the latest slew of government measures to cool the property market - announced on Jan 13 - has had on demand for home loans, Mr Gupta told reporters at a briefing on the bank's 2010 results.
'There's been a slowdown, but the slowdown also happened because of the Lunar New Year; that happens every year. So it's difficult for us to understand so far how much is the impact of the January guidelines and how much is the impact of the seasonality of the Lunar New Year.'
But since last August, when the first in the latest series of tighter financing and ownership rules was announced, the number of new home-loan applications has dropped at DBS and other banks.
'Our own general sense is that volumes will come off. We think these measures will have some impact,' said Mr Gupta.
But the cooling measures so far have had a greater impact on loan applications for cheaper properties, he said. 'Our observation after the August guidelines is that the top end of the market came off for a month or two and then bounced back. The lower end of the market - the smaller-value properties - came off and stayed off.'
One might see that with the latest measures announced in January, too, he added. 'There's still a lot of liquidity and demand at the top end.'
That was both a plus and a minus for DBS, he said. 'Our presence in the lower end of the market is much stronger than in the top end. So when you have a slowdown at the lower end, it hurts DBS.
'But some of the changes in the rules make it a lot more possible for us to approach the top end of the market' without taking on too much risk, because home buyers must now pay a higher proportion of a property's price in cash, he said.
As the bank expands its wealth-management business serving rich customers, 'we think we can start winning more share at the top end of the market that we've not done in the past', he said.
DBS had $38.7 billion worth of home loans on its books as at Dec 31, of which $28 billion were Singapore mortgages and $8 billion were Hong Kong mortgages.

kingkong1984

13-02-11, 16:58

are u sure low end max 40%? U referring to psf price or what?
Yup, psf, 40 max... On average, exceptions do happen here and there but average remains.

In worst case scenario. Anyway not factual, just my views there.

kingkong1984

13-02-11, 17:05

Dun read too much in the interview report. It's about DBS own market share and biz strategy. It doesn't mean it is the real thing. He is saying it's easier and more worthwhile for them to look high end.

Simple rule, make rates attractive, High, middle and low end will all come knocking.

CCR

13-02-11, 22:00

High end, flat line.... and slightly up only while volume remain low.

Low end max 20 to 40 percent drop in worst case scenario. volume remain higher.

No way can you have a drop of 20-40%..... That's is a crash.... Lol...

And OCR drop that much then CCR will also drop and not just flatline... Max drop is 5% if no other shock... In fact I will be surprised if prices drop at all if there are no other crisis and the economy continue humming along...

rattydrama

13-02-11, 22:52

Don't understand what you said. DBS CEO is not the CEO of property developer company, why he care about pushing high end property sales? He is just commenting on their loan business based on the different segments: loans for mass market properties vs loans for high end properties. Because he sees more liquidity and demand for high-end property loans after cooling measures, he wanted to focus more on getting business in that segment!

low end loan came down. it doesnt mean high end will move up. also as devil pointed out, the low end loan has higher loan vol. :p :p :p

rattydrama

13-02-11, 22:56

Yup, psf, 40 max... On average, exceptions do happen here and there but average remains.

In worst case scenario. Anyway not factual, just my views there.

40psf and not 40% psf rite? my eye popping with your views....:p :p :p

kingkong1984

14-02-11, 04:26

40psf and not 40% psf rite? my eye popping with your views....:p :p :p
Extreme cases only... Not likely... The worst case scenario before govt intervention... Things should be rather stable...:p

teddybear

14-02-11, 06:56

Low end loan come down means their volume coming down? Less people buying low end properties? People will start to off-load low end since volumes coming down means price will either stagnant or down?

Low end come down doesn't means high end go up, but at least it is stable and comforting for people to buy since it is not coming down? Furthermore, DBS CEO said high end still a lot of liquidity and demand means bullish on high end? (He did not say this for low end but instead he said low end is coming down and DBS is hurting as it do a lot of mass volume loans which happen to be in low end). Higher loan volume for low end properties but volume coming down is good news? Lower loan volume but volume going up is not better for investors? :p

low end loan came down. it doesnt mean high end will move up. also as devil pointed out, the low end loan has higher loan vol. :p :p :p

patricia

14-02-11, 10:35

DBS CEO say "high end is sluggish"? Where? You no eyes see? You hightlight for me where in the article the DBS CEO say "high end is sluggish"?
You put words into DBS CEO's mouth? You bloody liar and mongrel? :tongue3:
He did said high end less risk now! He also said "The lower end of the market - the smaller-value properties - came off and stayed off"! :eek:

Business Times - 12 Feb 2011

Top end home loans not impacted: DBS

Cooling measures take toll on demand for cheaper units

By CONRAD TAN

THE recent government measures to cool the property market have hurt demand for new home loans at the lower end of the market, but not at the top end, DBS Group chief executive Piyush Gupta said yesterday. It's still 'too early' to tell how much impact the latest slew of government measures to cool the property market - announced on Jan 13 - has had on demand for home loans, Mr Gupta told reporters at a briefing on the bank's 2010 results.
'There's been a slowdown, but the slowdown also happened because of the Lunar New Year; that happens every year. So it's difficult for us to understand so far how much is the impact of the January guidelines and how much is the impact of the seasonality of the Lunar New Year.'
But since last August, when the first in the latest series of tighter financing and ownership rules was announced, the number of new home-loan applications has dropped at DBS and other banks.
'Our own general sense is that volumes will come off. We think these measures will have some impact,' said Mr Gupta.
But the cooling measures so far have had a greater impact on loan applications for cheaper properties, he said. 'Our observation after the August guidelines is that the top end of the market came off for a month or two and then bounced back. The lower end of the market - the smaller-value properties - came off and stayed off.'
One might see that with the latest measures announced in January, too, he added. 'There's still a lot of liquidity and demand at the top end.'
That was both a plus and a minus for DBS, he said. 'Our presence in the lower end of the market is much stronger than in the top end. So when you have a slowdown at the lower end, it hurts DBS.
'But some of the changes in the rules make it a lot more possible for us to approach the top end of the market' without taking on too much risk, because home buyers must now pay a higher proportion of a property's price in cash, he said.
As the bank expands its wealth-management business serving rich customers, 'we think we can start winning more share at the top end of the market that we've not done in the past', he said.
DBS had $38.7 billion worth of home loans on its books as at Dec 31, of which $28 billion were Singapore mortgages and $8 billion were Hong Kong mortgages.Low IQ person. Don't know how to read in between the lines.:tongue3:

hopeful

14-02-11, 11:38

By Mr. Propwise (courtesy of PropertyGuru)
In light of the recent round of measures that imposes a harsh Seller’s Stamp Duty for a lengthy period of time (16 percent, 12 percent, 8 percent and 4 percent for years 1, 2, 3 and 4 respectively), the focus of property investors will now have to shift from the short term to the long term, and from capital gains to rental yield.
With the help of the research team at PropertyGuru.com.sg, I have put together a list of the five projects in Singapore with the highest gross rental yields. Getting this list involved going through PropertyGuru’s entire database of listings. The methodology for the gross rental yield calculation was to take the average annualised asking rental per square foot for apartments in each project and divide that by the asking sale price per square foot. Note that we do not include any other ancillary costs such as maintenance fees, so the net rental yields will be lower. Only projects with listings both for sale and rental were included in this exercise, and room rentals were excluded.

5. In fifth place is Sims Green (http://www.propertyguru.com.sg/project/sims-green-925), a 99-year leasehold development located at Lorong 27A in Geylang. At an average asking price of $577 psf and rental of $2.59 psf/month, you get a gross rental yield of 5.4 percent. Completed in 2004 and situated near Aljunied MRT station, the 108 units here enjoy condo facilities such as a swimming pool, BBQ pits, gym and playground.

4. Next is Lilydale (http://www.propertyguru.com.sg/project/lilydale-1213), yielding 5.6 percent with an average asking price of $564 psf and rental of $2.61 psf/month. A 99-year leasehold development located at Yishun Avenue 6, it is a few minutes’ drive to Yishun MRT Station and is also close to Seletar Country Club and Orchid Country Club. Completed in 2003, residents of the 318 units enjoy condo facilities such as a swimming pool, BBQ pits, gym, tennis court, multi-purpose hall, and playground.

3. In third place is Atrium Residences (http://www.propertyguru.com.sg/project/atrium-residences-56), a freehold development located at Lorong 28 in Geylang. Close to 10 minutes walk from Aljunied MRT station, this project has a gross yield of 5.6 percent with an average selling price of $674 psf and asking rental of $3.16 psf/month. It is a relatively new development (completed in 2009), comprises 142 units and has facilities such as a swimming pool, BBQ pits, gym, and clubhouse.

2. The second highest yielding project in PropertyGuru’s database is People’s Park Complex (http://www.propertyguru.com.sg/project/people-s-park-complex-428), which is yielding 5.7 percent with an average asking price of $812 psf and rental of $3.86 psf/month. It is an old 99-year leasehold development (completed in 1970) that is in a prime location just opposite Chinatown MRT Station.

1. And the highest yielding development is Wing Fong Mansions (http://www.propertyguru.com.sg/project/wing-fong-mansions-630) – at an asking price of $626 psf and monthly rental of $3.03 psf, it has a gross yield of 5.8 percent. A freehold development located at Lorong 14 in Geylang, it is minutes away from the upcoming Mountbatten MRT Station. Completed in 1997, it comprises 218 units and has facilities such as a swimming pool.

From my observation, the highest yielding projects tend to fall into the following categories:

1) Projects further away (e.g. Yishun) or unpopular (e.g. Geylang) areas that are located close to MRT stations and

2) Centrally located leasehold projects that are very old.
The key to getting a high yield is a low per square foot price (you can see that all the projects in the top 5 have a psf of less than $1,000) combined with good “rentability” (close to MRT, centrally located). If you’re focusing on rental yield (as opposed to just capital appreciation), prime projects in Orchard or Marina Bay are unlikely to be your ideal targets.
Mr. Propwise is the founder of Singapore property blog www.propwise.sg (http://www.propwise.sg/), which aims to help people make better real estate buying, selling, renting and investing decisions.

hopeful

14-02-11, 11:39

Do you think people will start pushing up the prices of the above mentioned condos above? and thus lowering the yield?

CCR

14-02-11, 20:10

High end, flat line.... and slightly up only while volume remain low.

Low end max 20 to 40 percent drop in worst case scenario. volume remain higher.

Latest news....

Property measures aimed at speculators, not genuine buyers: Mah
By ANGELA TAN

The latest property measures are very targeted at the short-term speculators, not at genuine buyers, Mah Bow Tan, Singapore's Minister for National Development told Parliament on Monday.

'So our measures in January are pre-emptive measures because we wanted to act before the bubble forms. It was calibrated so as to cool the market and it was very targeted at the short-term speculators, not at genuine buyers,' Mr Mah said in reply to a query on the intended end objective of the measures.

Mr Mah said that it is not the intention of the latest measures to crash the market but rather to cool the market.

He added that given the current situation of strong economic growth, low interest rates and lots of liquidity in the market, it is not unnatural to expect that property prices remain strong.

Mr Mah said the government does not wish to see prices shooting up so fast as to be unsupportable by the fundamentals. At the same time, it does not want to see a lot of short time speculation either.

'So if we meet these objectives, the measures would have done their job,' Mr Mah said.

There goes your 20% to 40% drop lol......

CCR

14-02-11, 20:33

News

Sales of Hong Kong resale homes picking up
Feb 14, 2011 - PropertyGuru.com.sg
Share
***|** ***|** *Comment***|** *E-mail to friend***|** *Bookmark & Share***

Sales in Hong Kong’s secondary home market are picking up again, said realtors.

Buggle Lau Ka-fai, Chief Analyst at Midland Realty, said the “number of secondary transactions in major residential projects rose to around 40” last week, “which is close to the normal level.”

“I expect the number to climb to 50 or even 60 this week,” he said.

However, Mr. Lau said home buyers may also be considering new flats, with units in nine projects, including Imperial Cullinan, Phase 2C of Lohas Park in Tseung Kwan O and the CentrePoint in Sheung Wan, expected to go on sale over the next two months.

While it is expected that sales in the secondary market will increase, Mr. Lau said both buyers and sellers are waiting to see if there are government initiatives on land supply in the upcoming budget, with some home owners withdrawing their flats from the market.

He also expects that the government will announce further measures to increase home supply. “I cannot say that sellers fear these measures, because if they do, they will sell all their flats now, before the budget comes out,” he said.

“But sellers want to know what the government will do before they put their flats back Onto the market

Looks like singapore market will follow suit... Volumes take a breather for a
while then start picking up again..

rattydrama

14-02-11, 22:06

Low end loan come down means their volume coming down? Less people buying low end properties? People will start to off-load low end since volumes coming down means price will either stagnant or down?

Low end come down doesn't means high end go up, but at least it is stable and comforting for people to buy since it is not coming down? Furthermore, DBS CEO said high end still a lot of liquidity and demand means bullish on high end? (He did not say this for low end but instead he said low end is coming down and DBS is hurting as it do a lot of mass volume loans which happen to be in low end). Higher loan volume for low end properties but volume coming down is good news? Lower loan volume but volume going up is not better for investors? :p

this shows that this round of cooling measure got impact.:p off load or not I dont know. can also be interpreted that people not buying so no loan biz. hence, subject to alot of interpretations.

melodies

21-02-11, 18:03

OCBC now echoed what DBS CEO said (highlighted in BLUE below). :eek:

http://www.businesstimes.com.sg/sub/news/story/0,4574,426812-1298145540,00.html?

Published February 19, 2011

Home loan applications down 20% in January at OCBC

HOME loan applications fell by a fifth at OCBC Bank in January, the bank said yesterday.

Though it isn't clear yet how much of that was triggered by the latest government measures to cool the property market announced on Jan 13, tighter financing and ownership rules since late August last year are likely to have curbed demand for new home loans, particularly for cheaper properties.

"The speculative interest has pretty much been taken out of the market; that we can clearly see when we talk to our business partners", said OCBC head of global consumer financial services Ching Wei Hong at the bank's results briefing yesterday.

The number of applications for new home loans fell by about 20 per cent in January compared to December, he said.

But "it's a little hard to say at present" what the full impact of the latest rules have had because the monthly loan application numbers are also affected by seasonal factors, OCBC chief executive David Conner said. "Coming into Chinese New Year, you wouldn't expect a whole lot of business."

Last week, DBS Group chief executive Piyush Gupta said that the recent government measures seemed to have hurt demand for cheaper homes more badly than for expensive homes at the top end of the property market.

OCBC's home loans expanded 4.5 per cent over the fourth quarter to $27.1 billion at Dec 31. About $21 billion of those are Singapore home loans, Mr Ching said.

The bank's mortgage portfolio isn't expected to shrink, despite the most recent cooling measures, Mr Conner said. "We have a lot of loans that were booked over the last 12-18 months that are being progressively drawn down, so we don't expect the loan book to shrink; it should continue to grow."

And there is still "latent demand" for Singapore residential properties from wealthy foreigners and residents here who are looking to upgrade to bigger homes, which should help sustain new home-loan volumes through the year, Mr Ching said.

First strong sign that cooling measures impact cheaper property units than top end homes.

==================
Business Times - 12 Feb 2011

Top end home loans not impacted: DBS

Cooling measures take toll on demand for cheaper units

By CONRAD TAN
THE recent government measures to cool the property market have hurt demand for new home loans at the lower end of the market, but not at the top end, DBS Group chief executive Piyush Gupta said yesterday. It's still 'too early' to tell how much impact the latest slew of government measures to cool the property market - announced on Jan 13 - has had on demand for home loans, Mr Gupta told reporters at a briefing on the bank's 2010 results.
'There's been a slowdown, but the slowdown also happened because of the Lunar New Year; that happens every year. So it's difficult for us to understand so far how much is the impact of the January guidelines and how much is the impact of the seasonality of the Lunar New Year.'
But since last August, when the first in the latest series of tighter financing and ownership rules was announced, the number of new home-loan applications has dropped at DBS and other banks.
'Our own general sense is that volumes will come off. We think these measures will have some impact,' said Mr Gupta.
But the cooling measures so far have had a greater impact on loan applications for cheaper properties, he said. 'Our observation after the August guidelines is that the top end of the market came off for a month or two and then bounced back. The lower end of the market - the smaller-value properties - came off and stayed off.'
One might see that with the latest measures announced in January, too, he added. 'There's still a lot of liquidity and demand at the top end.'
That was both a plus and a minus for DBS, he said. 'Our presence in the lower end of the market is much stronger than in the top end. So when you have a slowdown at the lower end, it hurts DBS.
'But some of the changes in the rules make it a lot more possible for us to approach the top end of the market' without taking on too much risk, because home buyers must now pay a higher proportion of a property's price in cash, he said.
As the bank expands its wealth-management business serving rich customers, 'we think we can start winning more share at the top end of the market that we've not done in the past', he said.
DBS had $38.7 billion worth of home loans on its books as at Dec 31, of which $28 billion were Singapore mortgages and $8 billion were Hong Kong mortgages.

stalingrad

22-02-11, 09:41

amk

22-02-11, 09:55

staling, dun worry abt vindicating evidences. I'm just waiting for some entertaining numbers to come up. For your (and bargain_hunter's ;) ) sake, I'm going to track carabelle, duchess residence, park infinia (maybe regent heights if regulator is game) prices in 2011. Fun right ? ;)

Condo Kaiser

22-02-11, 10:15

the media reported the eateries in the newly opened shopping malls at Orchard are shutting down left and right.

where are the crowds? They have not disappeared. But to see them, you have to visit the regional malls, like Vivocity, Clementi mall and jurong point. I feel totally vindicated. condo prices in CCR have no place to go but down.

I think the above clearly points to one thing: rental at CCR malls will have to be more competitve.

But I don't think shopping crowds have anything to do with prices of condo in CCR. Instead, now that Orchard is less crowded, we don't have to worry abt heavy traffic going there on Saturdays

CCR condo prices may fall in 2011, I'm not suggesting that CCR is better than OCR like many here are trying to debate, merely pointing out the shopping crowd has almost nothing to do with condo prices.

stalingrad

22-02-11, 10:19

I think the above clearly points to one thing: rental at CCR malls will have to be more competitve.

But I don't think shopping crowds have anything to do with prices of condo in CCR. Instead, now that Orchard is less crowded, we don't have to worry abt heavy traffic going there on Saturdays

CCR condo prices may fall in 2011, I'm not suggesting that CCR is better than OCR like many here are trying to debate, merely pointing out the shopping crowd has almost nothing to do with condo prices.
why not? Crowds have everything to do with condo prices. people usually were willing to pay higher prices to buy CCR properties because of proximity to good shopping centers and other amenities. Now good shopping and good amenities are everywhere on the island. thus, you see small crowds at Orchard and lower condo prices in CCR.

both the shutting down of the eateries and lower condo prices for CCR are signs of the time. the center of gravity for Singapore has shifted and will continue to shift to the periphery of the island. further evidence can be found in the fact that condos in outlying areas are still selling but neither d'leedon nor the interlace is selling.

proud owner

22-02-11, 10:22

I think the above clearly points to one thing: rental at CCR malls will have to be more competitve.

But I don't think shopping crowds have anything to do with prices of condo in CCR. Instead, now that Orchard is less crowded, we don't have to worry abt heavy traffic going there on Saturdays

CCR condo prices may fall in 2011, I'm not suggesting that CCR is better than OCR like many here are trying to debate, merely pointing out the shopping crowd has almost nothing to do with condo prices.

can one find cheap stuff at Fifth Ave, Madison Ave in NY ? or Bond St in London ?

no they are all branded expensive stuff

when tiny local names set up business in expensive places like ION , etc along orchard road .. their income can barely cover rental ...
furthermore , singaporeans have no loyalty .. they hop from one to another ..
so a lot of small establishments will slowly fade away ...some cut loss quicker, some try to hang on ......

Condo Kaiser

22-02-11, 11:11

Agree with proud owner on point that small shops will not stand the test of time and CCR mall rentals are too high for them to make a living.

I do not agree that there is no more good shopping in CCR, Just different segment of the market we are looking at. The target segment of shops in Orchard as well as condo in CCR are HNWI whom we all have to agree are increasing at rapid rate, expecially in Asia. While heartland mall target normal folks like us and ultimately the numbers have greatly increased over the years as well. Which is why heartland malls are busting at the brim.

If one day the likes of LV/Bottega/Vertu opens boutique in heartland mall, then I will conceed that shopping in heartland mall is comparable with CCR.

Till then, Orchard/Nassim/RV will remain the playground for rich indo/china/angmoh/singaporean.

OCR condo prices may still increase in prices, no doubt there is huge demand for them. But that by no means indicate the end to CCR condos commanding a premium. The uber-rich do not become poorer because no one is shopping in Orchard anymore, nor will they ever decide that staying in Sengkang (just an example) is better than River Valley.

westman

22-02-11, 11:20

Condo Kaiser

22-02-11, 11:36

devilplate

22-02-11, 11:38

I too believe in the value of proper CCR condos which is able to withstand the test of time.

MM units in CCR will lose its flavour sooner or later but big and expensive units will always have their followers in uber rich.

Especially now that OCR has had a fairly good run, the next leg will be up to CCR. They will be leading the market in the coming year or so.

agree tat uber rich only buy big big luxurious units especially penthouses....but i feel SG is not attracting enuff such buyers....causing an oversupply of such big ccr units right now? very hard to find high budget tenants to fill in as well....simply too many choices avail if let say i got 10k rental budget.....

Wild Falcon

22-02-11, 11:48

The problem is if Orchard Road only carries the foreign mainstream brands like the LV and Pradas which every tourist can find in any other parts of the world, then it will lose its charms to these tourists. Tourists/foreigners (other than PRCs who obviously only buy mainstream labels that everyone knows) are now more discerning - sometimes they come to your country to find things that is unique to your country - i.e. local indie designers that cannot be found in other countries. LV/Prada is Branded - Yes. Unique? Hardly. Can be found in large shopping malls everywhere. In fact, can be found at almost all airports.

can one find cheap stuff at Fifth Ave, Madison Ave in NY ? or Bond St in London ?

no they are all branded expensive stuff

when tiny local names set up business in expensive places like ION , etc along orchard road .. their income can barely cover rental ...
furthermore , singaporeans have no loyalty .. they hop from one to another ..
so a lot of small establishments will slowly fade away ...some cut loss quicker, some try to hang on ......

Condo Kaiser

22-02-11, 11:50

Yup, at 10k+ budget there are many choices.

But I feel more and more are making Singapore their home more than just an investment destination. Just like how increased PR for middle income drives up prices in OCR in 2010-2011. The same increase of uber rich will drive up prices of CCR. (excluding MM)

govt wants to make singapore a private banking hub of the east. If that happens, CCR prices will sky rocket. But that only apply to the real deal, not some fringe D9 condo which claims to be luxurious.

Areas like Paterson/Orchard/Nassim/Robertson/Sentosa/Marina Bay are prime candidates but the barrier to entry is high.

Condo Kaiser

22-02-11, 11:55

The problem is if Orchard Road only carries the foreign mainstream brands like the LV and Pradas which every tourist can find in any other parts of the world, then it will lose its charms to these tourists. Tourists/foreigners (other than PRCs who obviously only buy mainstream labels that everyone knows) are now more discerning - sometimes they come to your country to find things that is unique to your country - i.e. local indie designers that cannot be found in other countries. LV/Prada is Branded - Yes. Unique? Hardly. Can be found in large shopping malls everywhere. In fact, can be found at almost all airports.

Agree that tourists who are discerning will look for things unique to Singapore, but going to heartland mall will hardly qualify as unique. Arab street/Chinatown/Little India are examples of unique. But then again, if I'm rich and travelling, chances are i will still stick to 5 start hotels for my stay and organise private tours of all the unique places in Singapore.

Also, we are talking abt residential property market, not tourism industry. tourist numbers has little to do with condo prices anywhere on the island. Be it OCR or CCR.

It is investment demand that drives prices. And CCR like OCR has its own set of demand drivers which will support the prices.

devilplate

22-02-11, 11:57

Agree that tourists who are discerning will look for things unique to Singapore, but going to heartland mall will hardly qualify as unique. Arab street/Chinatown/Little India are examples of unique. But then again, if I'm rich and travelling, chances are i will still stick to 5 start hotels for my stay and organise private tours of all the unique places in Singapore.

Also, we are talking abt residential property market, not tourism industry. tourist numbers has little to do with condo prices anywhere on the island. Be it OCR or CCR.

It is investment demand that drives prices. And CCR like OCR has its own set of demand drivers which will support the prices.

some ang mors like to stay in little india....it does help to support the rentals

Condo Kaiser

22-02-11, 12:01

Yup but that is hardly a market mover.:)

Wild Falcon

22-02-11, 12:06

It is in response to someone comments that local indie designers cannot survive in Orchard due to the low margins. Nothing to do with investments.

Small town need to preserve its small town charm lah. Its like Europe, a lot of small towns do not allow/welcome foreign alien brands to come in to dilute their culture. I would dread the day when a heartland mall would be full of LV and Pradas - the Guardian, Bata and C& Keith and Breadtalk will do just fine. And the discerning tourists sometimes don't follow standard tours. You would be surprised some foreigners find our HDB flats/heartlands "unique".

Anyway, not hot on Orchard properties. I recall in 2007, St Regis Residences, Ritz Calton Residences and Orchard Residences are transacting above $5000psf and all experts were still shouting "buy". Today what happens? Bought at $5600psf, dunno when can see the light. Now 30% discount at $4000psf, many experts are shouting "cheap" but no one is biting...

Agree that tourists who are discerning will look for things unique to Singapore, but going to heartland mall will hardly qualify as unique. Arab street/Chinatown/Little India are examples of unique. But then again, if I'm rich and travelling, chances are i will still stick to 5 start hotels for my stay and organise private tours of all the unique places in Singapore.

Also, we are talking abt residential property market, not tourism industry. tourist numbers has little to do with condo prices anywhere on the island. Be it OCR or CCR.

It is investment demand that drives prices. And CCR like OCR has its own set of demand drivers which will support the prices.

proud owner

22-02-11, 12:14

The problem is if Orchard Road only carries the foreign mainstream brands like the LV and Pradas which every tourist can find in any other parts of the world, then it will lose its charms to these tourists. Tourists/foreigners (other than PRCs who obviously only buy mainstream labels that everyone knows) are now more discerning - sometimes they come to your country to find things that is unique to your country - i.e. local indie designers that cannot be found in other countries. LV/Prada is Branded - Yes. Unique? Hardly. Can be found in large shopping malls everywhere. In fact, can be found at almost all airports.

yes i agree

but i am talking about small local brand setting up bizz in orchard malls ...
what do they sell ?

nothing unique enuff for tourists ... they go to chinatown, l'tle india etc
not along orchard road ..

and many of these small shops can also be found in OCR ..
for heartlanders ..would you buy those stuff in orchard ? or in your local malls ?

setting bizz there to compete with big boys is quite suicidal

Condo Kaiser

22-02-11, 12:21

Yup, there's no comparison in term of which is better, merely personal taste and more likely than not most people will like a little bit of both.

A little bit disigner shoes coupled with a little bit indie chic ear ring makes good companion mah.

And with regards to CCR prices below historic high, wouldn't that make a good case for a right time to invest in them? :confused: Assuming that what comes up must come down and what goes down must come up.

amk

22-02-11, 12:46

Condo Kaiser, prepare yourself for battle ;)

stalingrad

22-02-11, 12:52

Condo Kaiser, prepare yourself for battle ;)

No, I will not battle him. I don't find it worth my time to talk sense into people who argue based on self-interest rather than what is logical.

This guy is probably invested heavily in CCR, and sitting on sizable losses.

Allthepies

22-02-11, 13:00

Good size CCR property in prime location usually strong in demand. Those with shopping belt/amenities at door step yet very secluded. i.e. such as Ardmore Park.

OCR properties usually cater to entry level investors such as myself who dont have much money to invest :2cents: Please don't flame me, this is just my :2cents: opinion.... :D

teddybear

22-02-11, 13:05

Wah, Condo Kaiser are getting wacked left, right and centre by you know who (the usual super strong OCR supporters who dream that one day their OCR properties properties would sell at same price in $PSF as Orchard properties) :scared-1:.
They dreaming of swapping at no extra cost hence so passionate to talk down CCR & Orchard properties? :p

Condo Kaiser, prepare yourself for battle ;)

proud owner

22-02-11, 13:11

stalingrad

22-02-11, 13:15

Condo Kaiser

22-02-11, 13:34

Haha, flame me. it's ok..

I was just trying to give a balanced view. If you look at my post, not a single one points to CCR being better than OCR. I was merely stating they each have their own merits.

But it seems to me that the OCR owners here are really keen to see CCR fall to their knees. But I feel if that happens, OCR properties will be affected too.

My point remains that there will always be a premium that real CCR properties command. Sometimes it's narrow margin sometimes it's wide margin depending on market sentiment.

No point saying which is better as it's like comparing Singapore Apple taste better than Malaysia Pear. 2 different fruit and from different country. No comparison.

Lastly my disclaimer:

I personally have properties in both OCR and CCR as well as a 20 years old HDB. So I just want the whole Singapore property market to be stable.

patricia

22-02-11, 13:39

OCBC now echoed what DBS CEO said (highlighted in BLUE below). :eek:What else do you expect them to say? Oh, the market is going down and we are losing business by the days? Of course, they will play different song when the OCR song seem oversold. CCR song seem to be their target. Always read with a pinch of salt if it is from people with vested interest. So naive/stupid? Talk to you, I wants to :sleep:

hopeful

22-02-11, 13:52

Haha, CCR vs OCR debate still rages on.

How come nobody start landed vs condo/apartment debate now?
Pretty sure landed will win hands down.

teddybear

22-02-11, 13:54

Never mind, I will make the statement:
CCR will always be more expensive than OCR, that is the purpose of the distinction, even though at times the gap may narrow, at times the gap may widen but the gap will never be fixed all the time, let alone be close to 0! :D

Those trying to talk down CCR properties and dreaming that their OCR prices will thus go up to transact at same $PSF as CCR can continue to dream on & on. The reality in future will be more like this: CCR down 20%, OCR down 40% given the fact that CCR has not surpassed previous peak while OCR is already almost 20% above previous peak! :tongue3:

OCR can never go too high is also supported by the fact that the top 10%-20% household income earners likely to buy OCR properties are just earning like $10,000 pm average. The most they can afford is likely a $1.5m property and with some spare money for retirement and that is it. You think they can afford family size properties at >$2m each and still can retire comfortably? :doh:

Haha, flame me. it's ok..

I was just trying to give a balanced view. If you look at my post, not a single one points to CCR being better than OCR. I was merely stating they each have their own merits.

But it seems to me that the OCR owners here are really keen to see CCR fall to their knees. But I feel if that happens, OCR properties will be affected too.

My point remains that there will always be a premium that real CCR properties command. Sometimes it's narrow margin sometimes it's wide margin depending on market sentiment.

No point saying which is better as it's like comparing Singapore Apple taste better than Malaysia Pear. 2 different fruit and from different country. No comparison.

Lastly my disclaimer:

I personally have properties in both OCR and CCR as well as a 20 years old HDB. So I just want the whole Singapore property market to be stable.

stalingrad

22-02-11, 14:02

Condo Kaiser

22-02-11, 14:23

True. If in this specific senario you have painted, probably Stalin is dumb to want to move to Bukit Timah. He should move to Robertson Quay. :spliff:

(But i think bukit timah got quite a few cold storage/NTUC Finest, King Albert Park/Bukit Timah Plaza/Coronation Plaza/Sixth Avenue/Robin Road/ Chancery Lane etc)

But simply stating that does not equate OCR being superior... Let's be fair here, OCR has its benefits and CCR has its benefits, some people like Singapore Apple some people like Malaysia Pear.

melodies

22-02-11, 14:46

Your true story is quite stupid actually. Your wife should live beside Novena Square, just like the below example of somebody's wife A:

stalin: I think these D10 condos along bukit timah road are not bad. We should consider them.

wife: why, what do I have to gain by moving here.

A: Move to near Novena Square, lots of benefits!

stalin: you can arrive at work sooner, and you are closer to shopping. and then the schools here are prestigious.

wife: It takes me 20 minutes from our home via AYE to go to shenton way. From here, I need to spend probably double the time. We shop at cold storage at west coast plaza. where is the cold storage here? our kids go to international schools, whether the schools here are good or bad is irrelevant.

A: To go to Shenton Way from Novena takes only 10 mins! Want to shop at Cold Storage? What for drive and waste petrol and car parking fee? Walk to Novena Square also have! Want NTUC Fairprice also in there! Many other shops in 4 shopping malls (Novena Square, Novena Square 2, Velocity, and United Square) nearby! Kids need to go International Schools? Just further up Thomson Road 2km only! But local famous schools even better, too bad foreigners can't even get in as they are in Phase 3 where these schools have ZERO vacancies left! Within 3 km distance already 6 famous schools! - SJI Junior, ACS Junior, ACS Pri, SCGS Pri, Nanyang Pri, Raffles Girls' Primary! Our kids can reach home in double quick time after school and can leave home for school 15 mins before school start without getting late!

stalind: you are right. let's stay where we are.[/QUOTE]

A: Bloody stupid to stay where we are! Quick move to Novena! The benefits is worth more than $2000 psf property price! :tongue3:

wife: Drive me to Orchard for shopping now!
stalind: I am not free, have to go for an appointment in Toa Payoh, so far away from here! Can't make it in time!

wife: *#%*()@! Why live here in West Coast so inconvenient? A place where "birds don't even want to lay eggs"! If I live beside Novena Square I don't need useless husband like you to drive me around! I can just take the MRT, 2 stops and 4 mins time and I am at Orchard for my favorite shopping!

teddy, this is a true story:

stalin: I think these D10 condos along bukit timah road are not bad. We should consider them.

wife: why, what do I have to gain by moving here.

stalin: you can arrive at work sooner, and you are closer to shopping. and then the schools here are prestigious.

wife: It takes me 20 minutes from our home via AYE to go to shenton way. From here, I need to spend probably double the time. We shop at cold storage at west coast plaza. where is the cold storage here? our kids go to international schools, whether the schools here are good or bad is irrelevant.

stalind: you are right. let's stay where we are.

teddybear

22-02-11, 14:58

The stupid stalingrad with his "Crabelle" and West Coast is the best story again? Oh my god! :doh:

Your true story is quite stupid actually. Your wife should live beside Novena Square, just like the below example of somebody's wife A:

stalin: I think these D10 condos along bukit timah road are not bad. We should consider them.

wife: why, what do I have to gain by moving here.

A: Move to near Novena Square, lots of benefits!

stalin: you can arrive at work sooner, and you are closer to shopping. and then the schools here are prestigious.

wife: It takes me 20 minutes from our home via AYE to go to shenton way. From here, I need to spend probably double the time. We shop at cold storage at west coast plaza. where is the cold storage here? our kids go to international schools, whether the schools here are good or bad is irrelevant.

A: To go to Shenton Way from Novena takes only 10 mins! Want to shop at Cold Storage? What for drive and waste petrol and car parking fee? Walk to Novena Square also have! Want NTUC Fairprice also in there! Many other shops in 4 shopping malls (Novena Square, Novena Square 2, Velocity, and United Square) nearby! Kids need to go International Schools? Just further up Thomson Road 2km only! But local famous schools even better, too bad foreigners can't even get in as they are in Phase 3 where these schools have ZERO vacancies left! Within 3 km distance already 6 famous schools! - SJI Junior, ACS Junior, ACS Pri, SCGS Pri, Nanyang Pri, Raffles Girls' Primary! Our kids can reach home in double quick time after school and can leave home for school 15 mins before school start without getting late!

stalind: you are right. let's stay where we are.

A: Bloody stupid to stay where we are! Quick move to Novena! The benefits is worth more than $2000 psf property price! :tongue3:

wife: Drive me to Orchard for shopping now!
stalind: I am not free, have to go for an appointment in Toa Payoh, so far away from here! Can't make it in time!

wife: *#%*()@! Why live here in West Coast so inconvenient? A place where "birds don't even want to lay eggs"! If I live beside Novena Square I don't need useless husband like you to drive me around! I can just take the MRT, 2 stops and 4 mins time and I am at Orchard for my favorite shopping!

ocoloco79

22-02-11, 17:29

Haha, CCR vs OCR debate still rages on.

How come nobody start landed vs condo/apartment debate now?
Pretty sure landed will win hands down.

I tot so, but it is not! Most prefered condo/apartment!

Allthepies

22-02-11, 22:11

not necessary

Ardmore II psf is not fantastic , rental is lagi bad

Ardmore Park is good. :D

proud owner

23-02-11, 07:38

Ardmore Park is good. :D

but not ardmore II

hopeful

23-02-11, 09:28

Ardmore Park is good. :D

terrible. rental only 6-7psf

westman

23-02-11, 16:11

terrible. rental only 6-7psf

Ardmore Park transacted at 3xxx psf and with 6~7psf, seem like these ultra rich units rental yield are around 2.5~3% p.a.

How about the asset's appreciate goes for Ardmore Park?

hopeful

23-02-11, 16:19

Ardmore Park transacted at 3xxx psf and with 6~7psf, seem like these ultra rich units rental yield are around 2.5~3% p.a.

How about the asset's appreciate goes for Ardmore Park?

i am educated by Regulators to start looking at yield :D.
in bad times. drop lot, in good times rise a lot also.

DaytonaSS

27-03-11, 09:15

Far from the S'pore crowd

An Australian family who lived in Singapore for a couple of years opted to move to Johor Baru because they found it too 'crowded' here.
'Coming from Australia, then California, we were just not used to the mass of people, especially on weekends, when we were trying to get the shopping done,' said Mrs Kaz Augustin, 45, an author and audiobook narrator.
The mid-level managerial positions she and her husband Jack hold mean that they do not enjoy housing perks or cheaper school fees for their children.
She said: 'We were spending more money than we were earning while living in Singapore.'
In Johor Baru, Mrs Augustin and her family live in a 14,520 sq ft house at Ledang Heights that cost them RM1.5 million (S$626,000). There are four bedrooms, a pool and front and back gardens.
A similar house on a smaller piece of land here would have set them back by $7 million to $8 million.
Her husband works in Singapore and travels to work by public transport, taking about an hour and a half to get from the bus stop at Gelang Petah to Clementi MRT station.
Mrs Augustin homeschools their two primary school children because the local schools teach Malay, which they do not understand, while the international schools are too far away.
Melissa Lin
LEDANG HEIGHTS
S$626,000
14,520 sq ft

DaytonaSS

27-03-11, 09:20

There are few articles on straits time on pple shifting to stay in JB today. Teddy , there are pple whom do it ya. beyond OCR now got JB for a fraction of the price.

devilplate

27-03-11, 09:23

How long haf they moved to jb liao? They r so daring to stay in jb wor.... Plus Homesch n travel long hrs to work.... Isit worth the trouble and risk at all?

Hope their kids r safe from kidnappers

melodies

27-03-11, 09:29

For price reason, sure! When I have no more activity in Singapore and don't need to be in Singapore everyday, may be I should go JB to get a 50,000 sqft land to build a Bungalow over there - this will set me back by equivalent of S$3m vs >S$50m in Singapore. But first, I will get a bullet-proof BMW or Mercedes to go with the house and 2 gukhars as bodyguards too. :cheers1:

There are few articles on straits time on pple shifting to stay in JB today. Teddy , there are pple whom do it ya. beyond OCR now got JB for a fraction of the price.

teddybear

27-03-11, 09:35

You sure those with a tens of millions $ or more want to live there even if it is dirt cheap? These few days, several cases of kidnapping and even murder of the rich over there. The most recent one is a ex-VP of Times Publishing, got stabbed in the neck and dumped along the road in Malaysia. Another one his wife, kids, and maid got kidnapped in Malaysia and asking for a sum of $50m. He paid unspecified amount and luckily his family members got released. There are many other cases where money paid and people still dead! :scared-3:

There are few articles on straits time on pple shifting to stay in JB today. Teddy , there are pple whom do it ya. beyond OCR now got JB for a fraction of the price.

DaytonaSS

27-03-11, 09:39

Got $$$ stay Singapore safe lah. I think they go cos cannot tahan Singapore standard of living. They still work here leh

DaytonaSS

27-03-11, 09:42

Home (http://www.straitstimes.com/) > News (http://www.straitstimes.com/News/News.html) > Home > Story

Mar 27, 2011

Homes away from home

For some Singaporeans, living in Johor is laid back and affordable, though security can sometimes be an issue

By Cheryl Ong and Melissa Lin

http://www.straitstimes.com/STI/STIMEDIA/image/20110326/sun10-2.jpg (Above) The living room of Ms Denyse Tessensohn's Ledang Heights home in Johor. She lives in the 9,000 sq ft property with her husband Steve Hogan. They commute to work in Singapore five days a week. -- ST PHOTOS: NEO XIAOBIN, NG SOR LUAN

http://www.straitstimes.com/STI/STIMEDIA/common/morephotos.gif View more photos (http://www.straitstimes.com/STI/STIMEDIA/image/20110326/sun10-2.jpg)

http://www.straitstimes.com/STI/STIMEDIA/common/c.gif

Home to educator Denyse Tessensohn had always been Singapore. But two years ago, after agonising over it, her family uprooted from their five-room Zion Road flat to settle in Johor, Malaysia, instead.
Her younger son, Mikhil, 25, an aspiring music therapist, had a place to study at the Berklee College of Music in Boston.
But when they worked out the sums, the family found that they could not afford Mikhil's overseas education if they continued to live in Singapore.
Two years on, they have since found the move not as painful as they had expected.
Ms Tessensohn, 60, and her husband Steve Hogan, 62, refer to their 9,000 sq ft home as a 'modest bungalow'.
Spacious as it is compared to their former HDB flat, it is the second smallest home in the Ledang Heights estate in Nusajaya, west of Johor Baru city.
For the $400,000 price tag, they have four bedrooms, a garden, parking space and membership in the estate's clubhouse which has a pool, gym and restaurant.
'Our living cost is much lower; utilities are a quarter of what we used to pay,' Ms Tessensohn said. 'It's quiet, there's space, good air. It's affordable and there's very good food.'
The couple commute to work in Singapore five days a week. Mr Hogan is an artist and teacher.
Moving to Johor
More Singaporean families have gone to live in and commute from Johor. They are attracted to its up-and-coming residential cities such as Nusajaya, where big houses and a quality lifestyle can be had on middle-class incomes.
Take the figures at East Ledang and Horizon Hills, two estates in Nusajaya where expatriates make up half of the residents. Of the foreigners, 80 per cent are Singaporean.
Not all is rosy though. Most of the foreigners - including the Singaporeans - interviewed by The Sunday Times, admitted that their homes had been broken into at least once.
Most of the Singaporeans declined to be photographed, concerned that they might be discriminated against by their fellow countrymen for - in the words of one - 'semi-quitting' their homeland.
Nusajaya
From the sky, Nusajaya resembles a city in progress. Patches of construction areas and swathes of virgin greenery make up the bulk of the 9,308ha landscape.
There is access to the highways bound for Johor Baru city or the Tuas checkpoint, both 20 minutes' ride away. Nusajaya is said to be on the way to becoming one of the most sought-after residential cities in Johor.
It is part of the Iskandar Malaysia project to develop Johor into an economic powerhouse. The area, including regions such as Johor Baru city, Senai and Pontian, is three times the size of Singapore.
In Nusajaya itself, various hubs are in the pipeline. There is EduCity, a 242ha collection of brand-name colleges and research centres, including Britain's Newcastle University and Singapore's MDIS. Newcastle's medical college will be ready there by this year.
Its integrated theme park, Legoland Malaysia, is due to be completed by next year. A transport hub has also been planned for the area, with a coastal highway due to be ready by next year.
Residential enclaves - like Ms Tessensohn's estate - have already sprung up. Each estate touts itself grander than the next. Nusajaya's Horizon Hills, for example, features an 18-hole award-winning golf course at residents' doorsteps.
Despite the premium pricing for houses in Nusajaya - starting from RM700,000 (S$292,000) for terrace units with about 5,000 sq ft in built-up space - they are popular with Singaporeans, who make up half the clientele.
Technology consultant Wu Qi (not his real name), is one of them. His semi-detached house cost him less than RM800,000 when he bought it two years ago. It takes him about an hour to travel to his office in Singapore's Central Business District each workday.
But the 34-year-old said: 'It is worth it. I enjoy the fresh air, the space and the freedom. It's not really about the travelling cost but whether it makes long-term sense.'
The lower cost of living was also a draw for Mr Steven Wong, 40, who has a weekend home in Setia Indah. The manufacturing firm manager estimates that food items in Malaysia are two to three times cheaper, thanks to the currency conversion.
'Living here is so much cheaper,' he said. 'The money saved can go towards my retirement. If I still live in Singapore, I won't be able to retire in comfort.'
Security issues
The expanses of land in both developed residential projects and uncompleted ones can lead to security issues, though.
At East Ledang, tall 'anti-climb' fences enclose entire residential developments, while guards patrol 24/7 within and closed-circuit television cameras scan the perimeters for intruders.
Meanwhile, the Johor police has been combating the perception that crime is a serious issue in the area.
Last year, the authorities arrested 3,286 suspects for break-ins that include property and vehicle thefts.
Local media said the crime rate dipped by 22 per cent after the authorities stepped up patrols and crime prevention campaigns. The Malaysian government has also allocated RM140 million to build a district police headquarters for Nusajaya.
Still, many residents take no chances when it comes to personal safety.
Ms Tessensohn said her house was broken into three times in two years after she moved in.
'We now have razor wire, grilles and dogs. Alarms are about to be installed,' she said. 'The guards had been slack. Now a RM5 million safety fence has been installed. We feel a lot safer.'
Mr Wu, too, said residents look for ways to cope.
'Crime is everywhere, be it in Johor Baru or Singapore. The key is to have some common sense and not be flashy. Keep a low profile. Never display your wealth,' he said.
Fitting in
Australian writer Kaz Augustin, 45, spent two years in Singapore before she moved to Johor Baru with her husband and two children in 2008.
Recreation for the family includes visiting the Ledang Heights estate's clubhouse and restaurants. They also take walks in the park in the estate, or enjoy the nearby lake in their motorised speedboat.
Bukit Indah, which is about 10 minutes away by car for the Augustins, has supermarket chains such as Jusco and Tesco, and shops. But there are some things in Singapore that are hard to beat.
'I miss the libraries there. There is no library close to us to take the children to,' said Mrs Augustin.
Residents there are awaiting the completion of Legoland and Puteri Harbour, a waterfront development. Till then, they spend their free time around the usual places in their gated communities, and however far their cars can take them out of Nusajaya.
Life in Johor can be slower in other ways, too. Ms Tessensohn said the Internet connection at her home is 'laggy', as are many services there.
'It can take a huge amount of time to get something done,' she said.
Mr Wong spends more time waiting for the waiters in restaurants to serve him than he does in Singapore, but he has learnt to take things easy. 'You must remember you're not in Singapore,' he said.
But he does see some pluses in the faster pace in Singapore.
'Rushing for time may not be such a bad thing, at least when it comes to work. It means we get our work done faster so we have more time for other things,' he said.
[email protected] ([email protected])
[email protected] ([email protected])
Peace of mind - at a price
'We now have razor wire, grilles and dogs. Alarms are about to be installed...The guards had been slack. Now they are on the ball and a RM5 million safety fence has been installed. We feel a lot safer.'
SINGAPOREAN DENYSE TESSENSOHN, whose Ledang Heights home in Nusajaya has been burgled three times in the two years since she moved in
Keeping a low profile
'Crime is everywhere, be it in Johor Baru or Singapore...The key is to have some common sense and not be flashy. Keep a low profile. Never display your wealth.'
SINGAPOREAN TECHNOLOGY CONSULTANT WU QI, who owns a semi-detached house in Nusajaya
http://www.straitstimes.com/STI/STIMEDIA/common/c.gif

DaytonaSS

27-03-11, 09:48

How long haf they moved to jb liao? They r so daring to stay in jb wor.... Plus Homesch n travel long hrs to work.... Isit worth the trouble and risk at all?

Hope their kids r safe from kidnappers

maybe only ang mo will do it lah. Singaporean couple will never home school their kids and i m on the impression that it is not allowed. No tution centre how can??!! hahah

teddybear

27-03-11, 10:17

DaytonaSS

27-03-11, 11:57

I would be more impressed if they say they have S$100m net worth and yet opted to live in JB and driving around in a strong-built quality car (better publicity for Malaysia) rather than live in JB and yet take public transport to work in Singapore! They can't afford the same house they want in Singapore isn't it?

100m buy nassim GCB still got left half leh. no need go to so far lah. got riches cant flaunt(eg drive nice car) and go out always scare pple kidnap where got shiok.

Rich and humble is good, but cannot life the lifestyle safely where got shiok?

as i typing just saw like 20+++ ferrari zoom pass my estate towards river valley direction..........

devilplate

27-03-11, 14:37

100m buy nassim GCB still got left half leh. no need go to so far lah. got riches cant flaunt(eg drive nice car) and go out always scare pple kidnap where got shiok.

Rich and humble is good, but cannot life the lifestyle safely where got shiok?

as i typing just saw like 20+++ ferrari zoom pass my estate towards river valley direction..........

20++ wow...tats alot....whr exactly u stay man....hehe.....i can only see porsche frequently....but not lambos/ferrari

taggy

27-03-11, 16:45

100m buy nassim GCB still got left half leh. no need go to so far lah. got riches cant flaunt(eg drive nice car) and go out always scare pple kidnap where got shiok.

Rich and humble is good, but cannot life the lifestyle safely where got shiok?

as i typing just saw like 20+++ ferrari zoom pass my estate towards river valley direction..........
20++ wow...tats alot....whr exactly u stay man....hehe.....i can only see porsche frequently....but not lambos/ferrari
i also saw them around 1pm++ (cant remember exact time), along AYE after Shenton way, before Telok Blangah exit. I exited at Telok Blangah, while they continue sped along AYE. :)

27-03-11, 22:24

[B]
Her husband works in Singapore and travels to work by public transport, taking about an hour and a half to get from the bus stop at Gelang Petah to Clementi MRT station.

1.5 hours to get to work and 1.5 hours to get back.... siao ah! that's 3 hours gone per day.... it's not worth it.....:banghead:

CCR

28-03-11, 00:17

I still think it's not worth itmto stay in JB.... Lookingnat theirmpost they are practically a prisoner in their estate.... Cannot go out after dark, only the usual supermarkets, shops and nothing else.... The constant sense of fear... Better off stayingin sembawang, admiralty landed... Stillmhave access to lots a greenery, slower pace, more time, can drive to the city if they want a night out or take the cab.... Go library at woodlands centre.... You cant even start to compare the both.... Even KL can't compare to sin, what more JB....

I have friends in KL who tells me they don't even want to set foot inJB.... I was really surprised.... And they tell me they really dontunderstand why we Singaporeans keepsmgoing there lol....

Maybe in 20 years time if iskander succeed then maybe and it's a big maybe.... More liveable... And you know in Malaysia, always must give discount....they don't have a maintenance culture... So things get old and in disrepair very fast so we must see what happen to Lego land, and all the other iconic projects in a couple of years...

DaytonaSS

28-03-11, 00:23

now they sure squeeze balls, 2 years ago move out of Zion area flat...... if they keep, i think the profit can pay off 50% of that property liao

CCR

28-03-11, 00:32

The moral of the story... If possible don't down grad... If you have pty inCCR don't sell... Coz once sell no money to buy it back... If you have a flat or condo in a good OCR area, likewise don't sell or else cannot buy back again... Unless you keep your eyes wide open and buy in when market crash... But the problem is, if your timing is not right then by the time market crash might be two to three years down the road from the time you sold, so even if it crashes, then prices still higher than when you sold.... Bottom line, move to JB if you want, but keep one unit here and rent it out.... Too dangerous tomplay this game ifnyou are still a citizen of Singapore man...

DaytonaSS

28-03-11, 17:18

As per shared by teddy, I quote here :

First piece of news showing effect of Jan 2011 property cooling measures. It seems to resonance with what I said: OCR generally over-valued with lots of speculation, while CCR under-valued. The cooling measures have indeed cooled the OCR properties with their index now dropping 1.5% while CCR has gone up by 1.5%.
But then this is really no brainers isn't it as OCR some locations now have even exceeded previous peak by >40% while CCR is still significantly below previous peak?

================================
Private home prices down slightly in February: NUS Index
Posted: 28 March 2011 1412 hrs

SINGAPORE: Private home prices in Singapore fell slightly in February, according to the NUS Singapore Residential Price Index.

The overall index fell 0.4% from January.

The index covers completed non-landed properties in the central and non-central regions.

The index for properties in the central area rose 1% in February, but that for non-central properties showed a decline of 1.5% from the previous month.

The figures followed steps taken by the government in January to cool speculation in the property market.

The measures included higher stamp duties for sellers and a reduction in the amount of credit available to those who already have outstanding mortgages.

The NUS Private Residential Price Index is a transactions-based indicator that tracks the month-on-month price movements of private, non-landed residential properties in Singapore.

- CNA/ir

DaytonaSS

28-03-11, 17:20

2011 OCR VS CCR

0 : 1

bargain hunter

25-04-11, 15:50

stalingrad

25-04-11, 15:59

Prices of non-landed properties in Core Central Region2 (CCR) increased by 1.1% in 1st Quarter 2011, and prices of non-landed properties in Rest of Central Region3 (RCR) and Outside Central Region (OCR) increased by 2.0% and 3.1% respectively (see Annex A-2 (http://www.ura.gov.sg/pr/graphics/2011/pr11-47a2.pdf)).

haha, you are raining on their parade. they were rejoicing over what NUS indexes told them.

bargain hunter

25-04-11, 16:08

i still remember your carabelle vs park infinia battle with teddy. it will be an exciting finish to the year. 3 quarters to go though.

haha, you are raining on their parade. they were rejoicing over what NUS indexes told them.

rattydrama

25-04-11, 16:08

Prices of non-landed properties in Core Central Region2 (CCR) increased by 1.1% in 1st Quarter 2011, and prices of non-landed properties in Rest of Central Region3 (RCR) and Outside Central Region (OCR) increased by 2.0% and 3.1% respectively (see Annex A-2 (http://www.ura.gov.sg/pr/graphics/2011/pr11-47a2.pdf)).

3.3% for OCR n RCR completed projects... looks like more people are going for completed projects which is currently under value right now. (as compared to new launch of the same areas)

Regulators

25-04-11, 16:10

for example?

looks like more people are going for completed projects which is currently under value right now.

bargain hunter

25-04-11, 16:10

the annex does show OCR up 2.9% for completed ppties vs 3.3% for OCR n RCR as u mentioned. but why is there is big difference vs the NUS one? :confused:

3.3% for OCR n RCR completed projects... looks like more people are going for completed projects which is currently under value right now.

rattydrama

25-04-11, 16:12

for example?

You read the Annex A-2... difficult to find examples now as streetsine not able to access.

dtrax

25-04-11, 16:12

To summarize for 1st Quarter 2011:

Property prices for non-landed in:
CCR up 1.1%
RCR up 2.0%
OCR up 3.1%

Rental prices for non-landed in:
CCR up 1.2%
RCR up 0.4%
OCR up 1.6%

Supply in the Pipeline:
- 68,887 uncompleted units of private housing from projects in the pipeline
- Supply of 68,8879 units was the highest level ever recorded since such data was first made available in 1999
- 34,266 units were still unsold
- Of the 68,887 units, 30,491 units were expected to be completed between 2nd Quarter 2011 and 2013, of which 25,238 units were already under construction
- Of the 68,887 uncompleted units of private housing from projects in the pipeline, 20,118, 19,235 units and 29,534 units were in CCR, RCR and OCR respectively

Launches and Take-up for sale by developers in 1st Quarter 2011:
- A total of 4,130 uncompleted private residential units were launched for sale by developers in 1st Quarter 2011
- 730 units were in CCR, 1,425 units were in RCR, and 1,975 units were in OCR
- 3,430 uncompleted private residential units were sold by developers, lower than the 3,965 units in 4th Quarter 2010. Of the 3,430 uncompleted units sold in the quarter, 536 units were in CCR, 993 units were in RCR, and 1,901 units were in OCR

stalingrad

25-04-11, 16:16

rattydrama

25-04-11, 16:24

the annex does show OCR up 2.9% for completed ppties vs 3.3% for OCR n RCR as u mentioned. but why is there is big difference vs the NUS one? :confused:

one use basket of selected properties and the other use actual transactions? Lots of arguments.... the base data has never been very accurate...if transaction vol goes up and they are using the same reference point all these while, I would assume that the going is still strong for this Q for completed RCR n OCR.

Regulators

25-04-11, 16:28

rattydrama

25-04-11, 16:28

I guess OCR will beat CCR in price appreciation this year hands down.

I have always questioned the so-called superiority of CCR properties. Nothing distinguishes them from the rest of the property universe.

CCR is still good. I view that the gap is narrowing. Look at 8@courtyard @least superior location. All time high yet there are buyers not frightened by the price. Buyers are mostly from Sembawang, Woodlands and Yishun.

dtrax

25-04-11, 16:35

Well for one thing, the herd mentality shows that pple are buying OCR/RCR like no 2moro. As expected, the rental prices for OCR up the most. I remember reading somewhere the supply of OCR shrunk this yr, correct me if I am wrong. CCR rental up by 1.1% which I think imo is still respectable. In the next coming yrs, the toped units for CCR is expected to surge. Likewise, the same scenario is gonna happen for OCR with the huge supplies coming up and also being currently sold (i.e likes of 8CY, H condo etc..) as developers are switching to lower quantum mass-market due to demand and CCR properties demand are still lacklustre as investors are still not yet coming b in doves. Old monies are yet to return as mentioned by blackjacktrader for some reason which he will reveal only after election.
Contrary investors will think CCR is the way to go, pro-ocr like stalingrad who says orchard properties are doom to fail will veer towards ocr with the insane appreciation at 3.1% tis qtr.

Anyone would like to share their views on the upcoming market trends?

dtrax

25-04-11, 16:38

rattydrama

25-04-11, 16:39

09 to 10 saw the biggest jump in prices in CCR (19.5%) for completed projects with OCR doing only 12.4%. What strikes me is the price disparity between uncompleted and completed projects in the OCR, consistently maintaining a 10-15% gap. CCR uncompleted and completed units see the narrowest price disparity, which is the reason many would advocate longer term investments in those areas. With the ridiculous new launches in the OCR now, we are likely to either see the completed OCR property prices trending upwards to be in sync with new launch prices so as to maintain the gap of 10-15%. Just my :2cents:

from 1.9% to 19.5% from 09 to 10 for CCR completed projects, I will take a step back and wait. I have waited for 1 year and still waiting. I rather be sad than sorry. Wait for the OCR to narrow the gap and chiong for CCR :p

You are right on the OCR prediction. FEO seems to know about this thrend. Dont forget majority of us Singaporean are asset rich but cash poor. With 40% DP, the only way to cut is size or location. For self stay Singaporean it has to be location. So more condo are sprouting in the North and North East and most ulu places but dont put the wrong bet on those ulu locations. When market drop, it can cost dearly.:2cents: :2cents:

rattydrama

25-04-11, 16:42

rattydrama

25-04-11, 16:45

In today's market buy from secondary market is safer, prices lag behind those new condos yet location is comparable. Unless location is damn chio and u see great potential that no one else see it.
:p

amk

25-04-11, 18:49

09 to 10 saw the biggest jump in prices in CCR (19.5%) for completed projects with OCR doing only 12.4%.

How do u come to this number ? I though it's the exact opposite, i.e. OCR enjoys the highest jump 09 to 10, whereas CCR hardly moved ?

amk

25-04-11, 18:50

i still remember your carabelle vs park infinia battle with teddy. it will be an exciting finish to the year. 3 quarters to go though.

And his real favorite , Duchess Residences ;)

amk

25-04-11, 18:57

In the next coming yrs, the toped units for CCR is expected to surge.

Wrong. In the next few yrs, the one to surge is OCR units. All these OCR launched in 09 10 and now, will TOP in the next few yrs starting 2013.

CCR "surge" is happening now, or already happened, because of the 2007 boom. In 2007 every developer was launching CCR, all of which are TOPing today. From now on u can see very few CCR new projects are being launched. ( for the moment ignore MMs), so there won't be another surge.

bargain hunter

25-04-11, 19:09

still on-going i think, the CCR completions. not over yet. prob towards end of 2012 then start to taper off. then the TOP party for non-CCR starts from 2013. :ashamed1: So sell OCR to buy CCR in 2012 is a possible theme? :D

Wrong. In the next few yrs, the one to surge is OCR units. All these OCR launched in 09 10 and now, will TOP in the next few yrs starting 2013.

CCR "surge" is happening now, or already happened, because of the 2007 boom. In 2007 every developer was launching CCR, all of which are TOPing today. From now on u can see very few CCR new projects are being launched. ( for the moment ignore MMs), so there won't be another surge.

bargain hunter

25-04-11, 19:11

but i agree with him that Carabelle can outrun Duchess Resi this year leh. LOL. i m not so sure about carabelle vs park infinia though, prob an exciting photo finish. :ashamed1:

And his real favorite , Duchess Residences ;)

dtrax

25-04-11, 19:50

Wrong. In the next few yrs, the one to surge is OCR units. All these OCR launched in 09 10 and now, will TOP in the next few yrs starting 2013.

CCR "surge" is happening now, or already happened, because of the 2007 boom. In 2007 every developer was launching CCR, all of which are TOPing today. From now on u can see very few CCR new projects are being launched. ( for the moment ignore MMs), so there won't be another surge.

Pardon me, being trying to dig out stats for this perhaps I din try hard enough. I remember quite clearly reading that the supply burst issue is 2013/2014 for CCR that's wyh some pple are holding on to CCR purchase in hoping the oversupply will drag down CCR prices

dtrax

25-04-11, 19:53

still on-going i think, the CCR completions. not over yet. prob towards end of 2012 then start to taper off. then the TOP party for non-CCR starts from 2013. :ashamed1: So sell OCR to buy CCR in 2012 is a possible theme? :D

Yup, if you are firm follower of fundamentals and not sentimentals, theoretically buy ccr in supply outburst is the way to go.

So anyone have the past stats for the supply pipline on CCR on 2012 n beyond?

amk

25-04-11, 20:09

but i agree with him that Carabelle can outrun Duchess Resi this year leh.

Really ? I dun ;)
The last psf in 2010 for carabelle was 990. Last in 2011 was 980.
The last psf in 2010 for duchess was 1767. Last in 2011 was 1808.

Regulators

25-04-11, 20:13

The figures are plucked from the price index
How do u come to this number ? I though it's the exact opposite, i.e. OCR enjoys the highest jump 09 to 10, whereas CCR hardly moved ?

amk

25-04-11, 20:19

Pardon me, being trying to dig out stats for this perhaps I din try hard enough. I remember quite clearly reading that the supply burst issue is 2013/2014 for CCR that's wyh some pple are holding on to CCR purchase in hoping the oversupply will drag down CCR prices

Look bro I dun read reports to find out how many CCR projects are coming, TOPing. This place is not very big. U can count them by hand if u watch from 2007. There are a few clusters where a lot of development are concentrated. Newton/Novena being one of them. Cainhill another. More over, most analyst reports did not differentiate MMs, therefor they get a very distorted number. OCR supply is huge, there is no doubt. The argument here is some thinks, due to the nature of mass market, no matter how much it's still not enough, and will be digested. Well I disagree. But I'm not here to convince anyone.

bargain hunter

25-04-11, 20:23

off hand, my list of CCR projects (150 or more units) completing from Q2 2011 to end 2012 (feel free to correct those i got wrong or add to the list):

Soleil 417
Scotts Square 338
Martin Place Resi 302
Parvis 248
Hilltops 241
VIVA 235
The Residences at W 228
Goodwood Residence 210
The Wharf Resi 186
One Devonshire 152

Yup, if you are firm follower of fundamentals and not sentimentals, theoretically buy ccr in supply outburst is the way to go.

So anyone have the past stats for the supply pipline on CCR on 2012 n beyond?

amk

25-04-11, 20:25

The figures are plucked from the price index

Which index, NUS or URA ? Looks really strange. I thought even u OCR diehards also agree 09 to 10 is the run for OCR. Look ard urself, OCR even resale ones has at least 40%. Which CCR project has 40% jump over these 2 yrs ? For OCR, just off hand I can count a dozen

bargain hunter

25-04-11, 20:38

aiyoh, remember last year i did all the hard work? give face use as reference point lah. :ashamed1:

http://forums.condosingapore.com/showpost.php?p=124379&postcount=222

average of the 5 DR transactions in 2011 is 1772psf vs 1708 = 3.75%.

average of the 3 Carabelle transactions in 2011 is 982.67 vs 952 = 3.22%.

Duchess still leading but at least more fair lah. ;)

Really ? I dun ;)
The last psf in 2010 for carabelle was 990. Last in 2011 was 980.
The last psf in 2010 for duchess was 1767. Last in 2011 was 1808.

amk

25-04-11, 20:42

Sorry Sorry i really wanted to find ur reference, but this ipad really very difficult to copy paste ( not IT guru). Yea ur number very good, let's do every month, can ? Reporter style, thank you thank you ;)

Regulators

25-04-11, 20:43

This is the ura index. The index is not surprising coz 09 was crisis and the post crisis the biggest jump has to be ccr where you will find the biggest fluctuation. Just look at the sail in 09 feb and compare that with 10, almost 100% jump for a number of units. Price movements in the ocr seen mainly in jurong and certain suburban areas which are not representative of entire ocr
Which index, NUS or URA ? Looks really strange. I thought even u OCR diehards also agree 09 to 10 is the run for OCR. Look ard urself, OCR even resale ones has at least 40%. Which CCR project has 40% jump over these 2 yrs ? For OCR, just off hand I can count a dozen

bargain hunter

25-04-11, 20:45

faint. :doh: i thought we were supposed to only compare at end of this year. LOL. :ashamed1:

Sorry Sorry i really wanted to find ur reference, but this ipad really very difficult to copy paste ( not IT guru). Yea ur number very good, let's do every month, can ? Reporter style, thank you thank you ;)

amk

25-04-11, 20:49

Personally i dun consider Sail as CCR, but that's another story. OCR price jump is everywhere. North, west, east, the whole island. Even the once sleepy. Sembawang yishun now also 800psf.

amk

25-04-11, 20:50

faint. :doh: i thought we were supposed to only compare at end of this year. LOL. :ashamed1:

Like that entertaining mah. Otherwise how to keep this thread alive ?

Regulators

25-04-11, 20:54

but stats show ccr bounced more immediately after crisis. Maybe end of this year, ocr will dwarf ccr in stats
Personally i dun consider Sail as CCR, but that's another story. OCR price jump is everywhere. North, west, east, the whole island. Even the once sleepy. Sembawang yishun now also 800psf.

bargain hunter

25-04-11, 20:54

oh well, here's the surprising result for Park Infinia!:

average of 5 2011 transactions is 1753.6psf vs last 5 transactions of 2010 1836psf (excluding huge penthouse at outlier of 1416psf) = -4.49%! even include penthouse also is a mere 0.61% increase.

Sorry Sorry i really wanted to find ur reference, but this ipad really very difficult to copy paste ( not IT guru). Yea ur number very good, let's do every month, can ? Reporter style, thank you thank you ;)

dtrax

25-04-11, 21:07

Well, almost half of completed units this yr goes to CCR. Perhaps that's the reason why with bountiful supplies, it is a buyer's market for CCR? And besides, investors have still not come back in full force.. the people with insane hordes of cash are still not here yet.

Regulators

25-04-11, 21:13

I personally think sentosa is a flop. The rental take up rate there is poor and look at projects like oceanfront, it is so inaccessible and many of these rich investors who park the money there are leaving it vacant.
Well, almost half of completed units this yr goes to CCR. Perhaps that's the reason why with bountiful supplies, it is a buyer's market for CCR? And besides, investors have still not come back in full force.. the people with insane hordes of cash are still not here yet.

amk

25-04-11, 21:30

I have 0 interest in sentosa, that's for the "thinking out of the box" type.
I observe on the ground what's happening. End of 2010 CCR started to move. CM4 effectively stop it. But thanks to the loophole, OCR new sale continue scaling new heights. 1996 all over again, ppl are comparing other project's price and say this one has to be underpriced.:scared-1: u have to wakeup one day and ask urself how is it making any sense to have jurong at 1200, parir ris or sengkang at 900 ? In 1996 pasir ris was 900 too :scared-4:

Regulators

25-04-11, 21:37

Just like it doesn't make sense for a ccr supporter like me to even buy regent heights, but I am happy with my rental returns there lol
I have 0 interest in sentosa, that's for the "thinking out of the box" type.
I observe on the ground what's happening. End of 2010 CCR started to move. CM4 effectively stop it. But thanks to the loophole, OCR new sale continue scaling new heights. 1996 all over again, ppl are comparing other project's price and say this one has to be underpriced.:scared-1: u have to wakeup one day and ask urself how is it making any sense to have jurong at 1200, parir ris or sengkang at 900 ? In 1996 pasir ris was 900 too :scared-4:

dtrax

25-04-11, 21:43

Exactly no right or wrong. Perspective change over time. Like all investments, different people different investment strategies, some chiong CCR, some die hard ocr, some luvs MMs, some choose smallest unit, some choose largest unit. The most important is timing for entry, one wrong timing and you can be slave for the next 10yrs, one gd move you can buy millionaire within the next 10months. I think most important is to observe patterns, policies, telltale signs like developer, buyer/sellers behavior and apply your winning formula to make a starbuy. Most important is to laugh to bank and not cry your way to debt and let other pple buy firesale units from you :scared-5: :scared-5:

teddybear

25-04-11, 21:45

Ha ha ha! I share the same view. It becomes "CCR" because of? That is another story. Such "new CCR" will become more common in future. :eek:

Personally i dun consider Sail as CCR, but that's another story. OCR price jump is everywhere. North, west, east, the whole island. Even the once sleepy. Sembawang yishun now also 800psf.

teddybear

25-04-11, 21:50

Well, if we look at the income data that for past 10 years, the salary of the masses barely increased but their OCR mass market property prices increased almost 100%! Ok ok, let's not use the median (that is for comparing to HDB 4 rm flats), let's use top 10-20% quartile who are the most likely buyers and owner-occupiers of OCR properties, well those increase is probably about total 20% increase! History almost repeats themselves, but in a different form. OCR cheong ahhhh! (Make the most hays while the sun shine!). :p

I have 0 interest in sentosa, that's for the "thinking out of the box" type.
I observe on the ground what's happening. End of 2010 CCR started to move. CM4 effectively stop it. But thanks to the loophole, OCR new sale continue scaling new heights. 1996 all over again, ppl are comparing other project's price and say this one has to be underpriced.:scared-1: u have to wakeup one day and ask urself how is it making any sense to have jurong at 1200, parir ris or sengkang at 900 ? In 1996 pasir ris was 900 too :scared-4:

devilplate

25-04-11, 22:31

Personally i dun consider Sail as CCR, but that's another story. OCR price jump is everywhere. North, west, east, the whole island. Even the once sleepy. Sembawang yishun now also 800psf.

like it anot...i tink px haven reach the peak....no signs yet...psf is misleading now....psf seems increasing but quantum almost the same for ocr.....we nid quantum to reach new level to have bubbles:2cents:

and like it anot...the sail is definitely CCR....u hf ur own perception but rental psf and quantum dun tell lies....1bedder rental in D1 is comparable wif D9 1bedder of similar size....those who missed the flying boat for D1,2....just too bad for u guys:p

devilplate

25-04-11, 22:34

I personally think sentosa is a flop. The rental take up rate there is poor and look at projects like oceanfront, it is so inaccessible and many of these rich investors who park the money there are leaving it vacant.

i tink sentosa is a different segment....meant to be 2nd holiday home...not practical for tenants to stay....its gona be a scarce commodity too(dun tink they can reclaim more land in sentosa)

devilplate

25-04-11, 22:36

Well, if we look at the income data that for past 10 years, the salary of the masses barely increased but their OCR mass market property prices increased almost 100%! Ok ok, let's not use the median (that is for comparing to HDB 4 rm flats), let's use top 10-20% quartile who are the most likely buyers and owner-occupiers of OCR properties, well those increase is probably about total 20% increase! History almost repeats themselves, but in a different form. OCR cheong ahhhh! (Make the most hays while the sun shine!). :p

again....dun get misleaded by psf....ocr new launches, the quantum stays almost unchanged since last yr....psf up...size down....

wait till they cannot cut the size anymore and absolute quantum starts to rise....den we will be seeing bubbles;)

Regulators

25-04-11, 22:52

Have you been to oceanfront? Your unit is facing the sea but the beach fronting the condo is unusable and the best part is you can't even walk out to the beach :doh:
i tink sentosa is a different segment....meant to be 2nd holiday home...not practical for tenants to stay....its gona be a scarce commodity too(dun tink they can reclaim more land in sentosa)

devilplate

25-04-11, 22:53

Have you been to oceanfront? Your unit is facing the sea but the beach fronting the condo is unusable and the best part is you can't even walk out to the beach :doh:

never...only been to seascape....vy nice development....but i dun hf few mil to park there without earning rental income:o

Regulators

25-04-11, 23:02

Nobody would park hard earned money in sentosa, I won't be surprised foreigners use sentosa to clean their money
never...only been to seascape....vy nice development....but i dun hf few mil to park there without earning rental income:o

thomastansb

25-04-11, 23:42

Sail not CCR then Livia is JB condos liao... Hehehe

:scared-4::scared-4:

Personally i dun consider Sail as CCR, but that's another story. OCR price jump is everywhere. North, west, east, the whole island. Even the once sleepy. Sembawang yishun now also 800psf.

thomastansb

25-04-11, 23:45

Fly too fast... I think got more than 100% increase from lowest to now. Only CCR can do that I guess.

like it anot...i tink px haven reach the peak....no signs yet...psf is misleading now....psf seems increasing but quantum almost the same for ocr.....we nid quantum to reach new level to have bubbles:2cents:

and like it anot...the sail is definitely CCR....u hf ur own perception but rental psf and quantum dun tell lies....1bedder rental in D1 is comparable wif D9 1bedder of similar size....those who missed the flying boat for D1,2....just too bad for u guys:p

DaytonaSS

25-04-11, 23:53

devilplate

26-04-11, 00:25

There you go... for your reading
Looks like ocr is undersupply for 2011 n 2012....

dtrax

26-04-11, 00:40

haha thanks, that's what I recalled as well. Seems pretty scary for ocr condo supply in coming yrs

devilplate

26-04-11, 08:22

haha thanks, that's what I recalled as well. Seems pretty scary for ocr condo supply in coming yrs

i see it differently....ccr supply looks more scary

looks like can hold on to ocr till 2014 latest?

stalingrad

26-04-11, 09:42

i see it differently....ccr supply looks more scary

looks like can hold on to ocr till 2014 latest?
that is right. OCR is a much bigger area than CCR. for a tiny speck of land with so many condos in the pipeline, CCR is definitely going to drop significantly, if not crash.

My friend's casabella has sit there for more than a year without a renter.

devilplate

26-04-11, 09:46

that is right. OCR is a much bigger area than CCR. for a tiny speck of land with so many condos in the pipeline, CCR is definitely going to drop significantly, if not crash.

My friend's casabella has sit there for more than a year without a renter.

how big is ur fren's unit and wats asking rental?

stalingrad

26-04-11, 09:48

how big is ur fren's unit and wats asking rental?

I am not sure. But when I visited, it appeared to be a large condo with at least 1,400 sf. I think he is asking for $4 psf.

devilplate

26-04-11, 09:52

I am not sure. But when I visited, it appeared to be a large condo with at least 1,400 sf. I think he is asking for $4 psf.

is ur fren's unit as beautiful as this one?
http://www.propertyguru.com.sg/listing/2890706/for-rent-casabella

i tink 4.5k for a 3bedder can easily rent out leh....reduce abit of rental lor....or ur fren got holding power?

Wild Falcon

26-04-11, 10:28

No undersupply lah.

When comparing supply, please do not compare 3 districts (9,10,11) with 25 districts hor. 25 districts of course got more supply lah. In fact, the land area of OCR probably more than 10 times of CCR - so is the supply 10x more? If 3 districts got more supply than 25 districts, then we're in trouble man. It means the 3 districts have become so darn congested and suffocating. While some people like to squeeze together, others might prefer more breathing space.

Looks like ocr is undersupply for 2011 n 2012....

devilplate

26-04-11, 10:31

hopeful

26-04-11, 10:37

Wild Falcon

26-04-11, 10:38

Even OCR also no undersupply... that's my view.

bro, i dun get u....

i say OCR undersupply for 2011 and 2012

devilplate

26-04-11, 10:39

Sidetrack:
Those HDB flats that are going to be built, are they in CCR or OCR?
more people stay in CCR or OCR?
more people work in CCR or OCR?
During morning times, more people take MRT from OCR to CCR or from CCR to OCR?

dun try to confuse HDB wif pte

price differentiation for CCR HDB and OCR HDB is much narrower compared to condos due to restrictions and income ceiling blah blah

devilplate

26-04-11, 10:40

Even OCR also no undersupply... that's my view.

2k+ units per year not undersupply meh?

Wild Falcon

26-04-11, 10:46

Doesn't matter. Still doesn't change the fact that not everybody likes to squeeze into the same space surrounded by concrete. Remember, not everyone is the same as you. With MRT lines being built everywhere, getting to town is getting easier. Someone 20 minutes away by train to town gets to town faster (and looks better without makeup melting) than someone who needs to walk 10 min (and perspire like crazy) and take 10 min by train to town. Also, more commercial areas springing up outside CCR which is part of our concept plan. So, don't always live in the past okie? Must also try to think a little about our future as well.

And of course note supply - no. of people selling out at any point in time in the resale market (in addition to the launches). That part of the equation cannot be ignored as well.

D9,10 - 25 columns (2.5 pages)
D15,16 - 25 columns
D19,20 - 5 columns
D23,24 - 5 columns
D11,21 - 10 columns
D1,2,5 - 10 columns

Sidetrack:
Those HDB flats that are going to be built, are they in CCR or OCR?
more people stay in CCR or OCR?
more people work in CCR or OCR?
During morning times, more people take MRT from OCR to CCR or from CCR to OCR?

stalingrad

26-04-11, 10:54

Doesn't matter. Still doesn't change the fact that not everybody likes to squeeze into the same space surrounded by concrete. Remember, not everyone is the same as you. With MRT lines being built everywhere, getting to town is getting easier. Someone 20 minutes away by train to town gets to town faster (and looks better without makeup melting) than someone who needs to walk 10 min (and perspire like crazy) and take 10 min by train to town. Also, more commercial areas springing up outside CCR which is part of our concept plan. So, don't always live in the past okie? Must also try to think a little about our future as well.

And of course note supply - no. of people selling out at any point in time in the resale market (in addition to the launches). That part of the equation cannot be ignored as well.

D9,10 - 25 columns (2.5 pages)
D15,16 - 25 columns
D19,20 - 5 columns
D23,24 - 5 columns
D11,21 - 10 columns
D1,2,5 - 10 columns

yes, D9 and 10 are dead meat, as I have predicted for so long. if owners there want to sell, cut the prices by 20%. Otherwise, they should stop wasting our time by putting up so many ads.

devilplate

26-04-11, 10:55

yes, D9 and 10 are dead meat, as I have predicted for so long. if owners there want to sell, cut the prices by 20%. Otherwise, they should stop wasting our time by putting up so many ads.

hehe...agts put up the ads....not owners....u can only say owners can stop dreaming of fetching gd px....:rolleyes:

stalingrad

26-04-11, 11:04

hehe...agts put up the ads....not owners....u can only say owners can stop dreaming of fetching gd px....:rolleyes:

yes, I know. these agents put up large ads for duchess residences on every page. for god's sake, who is going to pay $2000 psf for such condos? I would even consider $1,500 too high.

amk

26-04-11, 11:16

I *knew* the same arguments will come ;)

never mind let's watch this yr and see who outperforms who.

staling, ur favorite duchess residences is currently outperforming ur carabelle ok ? ;)

amk

26-04-11, 11:21

Looks like ocr is undersupply for 2011 n 2012....

in terms of TOP yes. but in terms of selling uncompleted, just the other way. The TOP storm for OCR will arrive 2013 onwards. all those launched from mid 2009 til now are going to go online.

If you think CCR TOP party right now is scary, well, imagine what happens in 2013 onwards.

(yes I heard you OCR diehards, OCR is big enough so still no oversupply no matter what. never mind we disagree on this).

for me, from investor point of view, I'm physically reducing OCR positions and increasing CCR positions. CCR TOP party presented some opportunities, especially just before TOP.

devilplate

26-04-11, 11:24

to win the argument...one shd pick a better project as a comparison....such as a project tat is nearing TOP(3-6mths before TOP....and not going to TOP next mth)

how to compare wif one oredi TOP few yrs back vs one just TOP

buying interest will kick in just b4 and after TOP and become stale after 1yr...rotten u can call tat

devilplate

26-04-11, 11:26

in terms of TOP yes. but in terms of selling uncompleted, just the other way. The TOP storm for OCR will arrive 2013 onwards. all those launched from mid 2009 til now are going to go online.

If you think CCR TOP party right now is scary, well, imagine what happens in 2013 onwards.

(yes I heard you OCR diehards, OCR is big enough so still no oversupply no matter what. never mind we disagree on this).

for me, from investor point of view, I'm physically reducing OCR positions and increasing CCR positions. CCR TOP party presented some opportunities, especially just before TOP.

still early for OCR.....can still grow till next yr....

as for CCR, still early to enter.....can wait till next yr

as for NOW, RCR ROCKS!!!!(certain projects only)

amk

26-04-11, 11:28

how to compare wif one oredi TOP few yrs back vs one just TOP

if he knows the diff on this he would not have bet so confidently 2011 his old pj will outperform all others ;) (yea I'm poking him)

DaytonaSS

26-04-11, 11:29

yes, D9 and 10 are dead meat, as I have predicted for so long. if owners there want to sell, cut the prices by 20%. Otherwise, they should stop wasting our time by putting up so many ads.

Waste your time? U looking to buy? If not pple got $$$ to splash cannot meh? Since so lousy D9,10 y u bother?

amk

26-04-11, 11:31

still early for OCR.....can still grow till next yr....

as for CCR, still early to enter.....can wait till next yr

the 4y SSD changes the rule quite significantly. which ever sector u enter, u can only look for exit 4yrs from now. what's the likely situation 4ys from now ?

CCR TOP storm is now. yes can still wait a while but this is entirely area dependent. some parts of CCR are flushed with new projects, some hardly has any. in any case MBT CM really stops a lot of interest in all sectors.

devilplate

26-04-11, 11:35

the 4y SSD changes the rule quite significantly. which ever sector u enter, u can only look for exit 4yrs from now. what's the likely situation 4ys from now ?

CCR TOP storm is now. yes can still wait a while but this is entirely area dependent. some parts of CCR are flushed with new projects, some hardly has any. in any case MBT CM really stops a lot of interest in all sectors.

yea...but to sell ocr now in exchange for a ccr....:tsk-tsk: :tsk-tsk:

since got 4yrs ssd.....mabe best strategy is to hold on to our existing stocks....sell when u tink its peak or reach ur TG px and keep the hot cash

buy anything now goto wait 4yrs....by tat time, as u said...anything can happen oredi.....paper gains is just imaginary when u nvr realise it

stalingrad

26-04-11, 11:39

Waste your time? U looking to buy? If not pple got $$$ to splash cannot meh? Since so lousy D9,10 y u bother?

yes, wasting our time. My wife is buying a car, and then the classified section of ST is cluttered with these stupid ads for D9 and 10 properties that the owners have no intention to sell (if they intend to sell, they would've cut prices by 20 or even 30% to clear stock).

I find it very interesting that in singapore, people are very blase about selling properties. They just put up ridiculous ads asking for ridiculously high prices. While they expect no one to buy at these prices, that does not prevent them from putting up the same ads asking for the same prices day in and day out.

In the west, or at least in the Americas, people put up ads only when they really intend to sell.

devilplate

26-04-11, 11:46

In the west, or at least in the Americas, people put up ads only when they really intend to sell.

sg owners like to test market mah....i dun deny i do tat too....to get a feel of the ground:ashamed1:

as for so many ads....agts goto ad like mad lor....bcoz in SG, mostly open listing....tat makes agts really really hungry for food.....fittest survive....

in western countries, usually sellers appoint one agt to market only....totally different culture....

SG is not the worse...taiwan/HK can see agts practically touting on the streets....vy common scene

if let say CEA impose a rule tat only one agent is allowed to market for a unit.....u will see ads drop drastically.....but hor, surely goto dump SPH stock!:p

bargain hunter

26-04-11, 13:02

the original fight was carabelle vs park infinia since both has similar no. of units and TOP pretty near each other.

amk, stalin and i decided to throw in carabelle vs duchess resi for fun. LOL.

to win the argument...one shd pick a better project as a comparison....such as a project tat is nearing TOP(3-6mths before TOP....and not going to TOP next mth)

how to compare wif one oredi TOP few yrs back vs one just TOP

buying interest will kick in just b4 and after TOP and become stale after 1yr...rotten u can call tat

bargain hunter

26-04-11, 13:03

i agree with you on this. just don't have as many OCR units to sell or the ability to buy as many CCR units. :ashamed1:

in terms of TOP yes. but in terms of selling uncompleted, just the other way. The TOP storm for OCR will arrive 2013 onwards. all those launched from mid 2009 til now are going to go online.

If you think CCR TOP party right now is scary, well, imagine what happens in 2013 onwards.

(yes I heard you OCR diehards, OCR is big enough so still no oversupply no matter what. never mind we disagree on this).

for me, from investor point of view, I'm physically reducing OCR positions and increasing CCR positions. CCR TOP party presented some opportunities, especially just before TOP.

Wild Falcon

26-04-11, 13:51

Both projects are laggards. Both Carabelle and Park Infinia didn't move much from the reference date. I remember Carabelle was 900+psf and Park Infinia 1700+ PSF and both are quite stagnant projects.

the original fight was carabelle vs park infinia since both has similar no. of units and TOP pretty near each other.

amk, stalin and i decided to throw in carabelle vs duchess resi for fun. LOL.

Wild Falcon

26-04-11, 13:58

dtrax

26-04-11, 14:01

I think when PI transacted at 1.7k psf previously it was already near the peak (1.8k psf when it was at the top). Compared to surrounding developments (those newer condos and not toped yet) like newton one & lincoln modern, the psf are much lower. If you add another 100 or 200 psf to the psf, almost 1.9k psf liao..almost can get closer to orchard properties, I dun see any more upside other than dropping or maintaining the same level. Other the flip side, mass market condos all breach 1.k psf barrier easier except for those super ulu locations

bargain hunter

26-04-11, 14:35

i thought that was our purpose? to find out if similar completed projects (laggards in this case) in CCR vs OCR, how much difference in performance from dec 2010 to dec 2011?

amk, see lah. i told u we should only check back at the end of 2011, now the comparison has lost its significance if we check every quarterly or even monthly as u suggested. hahahahaha.

Both projects are laggards. Both Carabelle and Park Infinia didn't move much from the reference date. I remember Carabelle was 900+psf and Park Infinia 1700+ PSF and both are quite stagnant projects.

CCR

26-04-11, 18:58

But got avalanche coming in 2013 wor, albeit slightly later than CCR. But seriously , if CCR price decline due to oversupply in 2012, it will spill over to OCR as well.

Anyway, so many GLS and enbloc. I think supply is more than sufficient in every region.

Guys, it will not happened... in my other thread i mentioned that the gahmen will open the flood gates to allow population to increase to 6.5m.... i think they will reach the target in 5 years man... then come next election they can say they close shop liao..... no more immigrants...

Why do you think developers bid so high for land and so aggressive... they also betting that the doors will be open once election over...

26-04-11, 19:37

what to do? singaporeans not producing enough.... need to maintain population proportion, so have to "import" lor..... :beats-me-man:

Don't think government has a choice.

Unless we go forth and procreate like there's no tomorrow:)

DaytonaSS

26-04-11, 19:46

Huat ah Buy Buy Buy!!!