View Full Version : developer old/new trick?
Hi all,
just wondering how many of us here have received the surveyor's results of TOP units. As for me, I have only received the surveyors' bill asking for payment for their services.
I have emailed the lawyer to email me the surveyors' results. But so far, they dilly dally. Don't know whether they want to delay until I forget the matter.
According to S&P, the tolerance in size is 3% (i think).
So if developer want to earn extra profit, can market at bigger size.
For example, 1000sf, but in reality 980sf - Developer earn 20sf@1000psf = S$20.000.
This is addition to the outsized balcony, AC ledge, planter.
So how many fellow forummers have actually asked for surveyors results? and those that received, what is the margin of error?
Developers cannot makan the 3%.
All developments are built according to approved plans submitted to BCA. This will be built according the max allowable area for each plot. The strata title plans have to be strata-ed according to the approved plans, and that’s what we’re buying. The developers can’t hide 3% of the area somewhere in the hope of selling it, because it won’t exist anywhere. The professionals (architects & engineers) will never agree to this, they can get disbarred.
The 3% deviation is likely to occur when the contractor screws up. Maybe 1m wide become 990mm wide. This also allows for some construction tolerance. The contractor must be really screw up if the area deviates by 3%....
offhand, I remember the tolerance in S&P / specifications / brochure is 3%.
perhaps AC ledge can be made smaller?
I am also wondering why the tolerance is 3% (or is it other figures?)
for 2000sf, that is 60sf or about 9sq meters!!!.
i also realise in recent floorplans, less and less details being provided. some years back, some developers still put the size of the rooms / living hall in the floor plan. Relevant authorities should ensure basic information like this being provided so that buyers can make an informed choice rather than just target the showflat (showflat to me is always about stretching the imagination). Some forumers here even had to resort to measuring the showflat to get dimensions.
Hi all,
just wondering how many of us here have received the surveyor's results of TOP units. As for me, I have only received the surveyors' bill asking for payment for their services.
I have emailed the lawyer to email me the surveyors' results. But so far, they dilly dally. Don't know whether they want to delay until I forget the matter.
According to S&P, the tolerance in size is 3% (i think).
So if developer want to earn extra profit, can market at bigger size.
For example, 1000sf, but in reality 980sf - Developer earn 20sf@1000psf = S$20.000.
This is addition to the outsized balcony, AC ledge, planter.
So how many fellow forummers have actually asked for surveyors results? and those that received, what is the margin of error?
This is part of the industrial acceptabe construction tolerence ..
both way.. you can get bigger by 3 % also...question is. will you pay the extra (eg $20k , based on your cal) if get bigger ?
i also realise in recent floorplans, less and less details being provided. some years back, some developers still put the size of the rooms / living hall in the floor plan. Relevant authorities should ensure basic information like this being provided so that buyers can make an informed choice rather than just target the showflat (showflat to me is always about stretching the imagination). Some forumers here even had to resort to measuring the showflat to get dimensions.
the plan , when constructed, is called the as built plan. This is importance as it show the routing of the cables, pipe, sewerage and gas line.
your renovation ccontractor needed this for their planing puspose.
i remembered a case whereby the gas line was drilled and leak, and the boy died in the sleep.. prettey sad case...
So I take it both "SH" and "2824" has never asked for copy of surveyor's results?
My previous landlord many years back, the error is more than 3%.
The developer did not informed the owners. It took a particular owner to engage a surveyor to measure his unit to realise that his unit is materially smaller than what he paid for.
To cut story short, the fellow owners of that project managed to get compensation from the developer :)
This is part of the construction tolerence..
both way.. you can get bigger by 3 % also...question is. will you pay the extra (eg $20k , based on your cal) if get bigger ?
do you think can get bigger than 3%? :D Any projects that you know of?
3% for 1000sf is 30sf or 3sq meters. Where is that going to fit in the foundations??
Don't tell me some unit is 3sq meter bigger and some units are 3sq meter smaller???
More logical for developer to cut the 3% area from balcony, planter, ac ledge since this are external "rooms".
nowadays with Leica distometers, etc. can measure wrongly until 3% unless it is deliberate?
How about the height? I understand that there is a TOP condo with height a lot less than the specification.
How about the height? I understand that there is a TOP condo with height a lot less than the specification.
S&P/brochure/specifications only say 3% error margin in floor area. didn't say anything about height :beats-me-man:.
so far, nobody has asked for surveyor's results??? Developers have easy life :)
I have asked for surveyor's results before, for something else.
the 3% thing is an industry standard terms (to protect the contractor :cool: ). Even if your surveyor found > 3% diff, you only get compensated for size in excess of 3%. (i.e. if ur unit is supposed to be 1000, u found it's only 960, more than 3%, you get compensated for only 10 not 40.) So by and large u r at the contractor's mercy. I dun believe developers overstate the size deliberately. I believe they are given a very generous allowance.
In some other countries, size of the unit is not cast in stone. It's re-surveyed at the time of transaction. A 1000sqft unit can be re-surveyed later as 950. Will you want that system ? Method of measurement is not an exact science.
The residents try to sue the developer but it is a long drawn battle. The question is who got a deeper pocket. It is likely to be settle out of court with some compensation.
S&P/brochure/specifications only say 3% error margin in floor area. didn't say anything about height :beats-me-man:.
so far, nobody has asked for surveyor's results??? Developers have easy life :)
I have asked for surveyor's results before, for something else.
the 3% thing is an industry standard terms (to protect the contractor :cool: ). Even if your surveyor found > 3% diff, you only get compensated for size in excess of 3%. (i.e. if ur unit is supposed to be 1000, u found it's only 960, more than 3%, you get compensated for only 10 not 40.) So by and large u r at the contractor's mercy. I dun believe developers overstate the size deliberately. I believe they are given a very generous allowance.
In some other countries, size of the unit is not cast in stone. It's re-surveyed at the time of transaction. A 1000sqft unit can be re-surveyed later as 950. Will you want that system ? Method of measurement is not an exact science.
so to take very extreme case, i sell condo at 1000sf. buyer received 0sf. I need to pay buyer 970sf. 30sf is pure profit :D just joking.
I dont know about that part about deliberately.
Maybe that's is one reason why showflats seldom have construction plans, as mentioned in another thread :)
Construction plans have to be approved by BCA.
Brochures and showflats need not be approved by BCA.
In every brochure, there is this disclaimer that "...not representation of facts...." etc.
In fact, you seem to be the only who ask for surveyor's results.
Does it take long for you to get the surveyor's results?
Method of measurement is exact science. That's why the Chunnel can meet in the middle, below the seabed. That's why BP can intersect the leaking borehole the size of a dinner plate kilometers down.
The residents try to sue the developer but it is a long drawn battle. The question is who got a deeper pocket. It is likely to be settle out of court with some compensation.
why don't the residents go to the press? just like that recent case of residents sueing a developer for leaking etc. Right after the news come out, developer promise to fix the problem.
Does it take long for you to get the surveyor's results?
no. very quick.
Method of measurement is exact science.
No it's not. do not be confused with the method of measuring, and method of measurement. A unit is not a square box. where to stop the subunit and do the summing is at the judgment of the surveyor. That's why in some other places the same unit can legally have different size by different surveyors. Particularly so if the unit has many irregular shapes.
Regulators
15-02-11, 12:14
Unit layouts are geometrical shapes and measurements can be made with precision and using the right instruments and calculations. I personally think 3% is too big an allowable margin for error. For a 1000sf unit it is 32sf, which is a lot.
no. very quick.
No it's not. do not be confused with the method of measuring, and method of measurement. A unit is not a square box. where to stop the subunit and do the summing is at the judgment of the surveyor. That's why in some other places the same unit can legally have different size by different surveyors. Particularly so if the unit has many irregular shapes.
I bought a unit in PRC from a devloper regarded as one of Singapore's most reputable (not FEO, I don't count them as very reputable!) and suprised by two things that transpired.
a. I got a letter saying the unit was larget than expected (about + 3%) and asking me to pay the difference. As there was a huge capital gain (2x) I was quite pleased...however it turned out the extra floor area was achieved by putting a 50RMB screen dooor in the passageway and counting the area as part of my built up area!
b. A later letter offered to sell me a carpark lot for about SGD10K...units didn't come with an included car park, and hence the brocure touting the parking space was quite misleading.
I couldn't imagine this happening in Singapore. I wonder if Singapore has rules that prevent this, or the developers are more careful with reputation.
do you think can get bigger than 3%? :D Any projects that you know of?
3% for 1000sf is 30sf or 3sq meters. Where is that going to fit in the foundations??
Don't tell me some unit is 3sq meter bigger and some units are 3sq meter smaller???
More logical for developer to cut the 3% area from balcony, planter, ac ledge since this are external "rooms".
nowadays with Leica distometers, etc. can measure wrongly until 3% unless it is deliberate?
It not about measurement, it about construction. Measure is one thing, when constructed is another.. Method or the tools of measurements are researched , tested and proven by academic/professors whom spend their long on it…
End of the day, the one whom constructed the building are the ah neh….no choice wan…got plus or minus . especially housing construction is considered relatively old method which don need precise accuracy.
However, I do agreed, if the area is big, eg above 2k sf, the 3 % is relative large as well.. :)
Unit layouts are geometrical shapes and measurements can be made with precision and using the right instruments and calculations.
look I'm not here to debate with you on this. just think of it, why in some other markets size of an apartment is not fixed, but varied at each survey ?
8kenshin: get used to the car park thing ;) the "resident's club" is also not included, you have to pay separately. All these are "learned" from the HK developers.
......
End of the day, the one whom constructed the building are the ah neh….no choice wan…got plus or minus . especially housing construction is considered relatively old method which don need precise accuracy.
However, I do agreed, if the area is big, eg above 2k sf, the 3 % is relative large as well.. :)
Anybody has any idea where the error is introduced?
Meaning
A) foundation , beams , are not in position, ie error by 3%.
B) different methods of measurement differ by 3%.
if A) Not sure whether 3% is allowed in industrial facilties.
oopps, the position of the machine is wrong by 3%. Need to redo the piping :doh:.
Anyway, it looks like none, AMK excepted, actually ask for surveyor's results. Don't actually check whether we get what we paid for.
So if I was a developer, I would built according to BCA plans, my sales brochure shows extra space by 3% in aircon ledge, balcony. Make them shorter but same width :D.
if the law permits that I can charge them extra by overbuilding, I would enlarge the AC ledge :D
hopefully, the government can tighthen to rein in misrepresentation by the developers.
Anybody has any idea where the error is introduced?
Meaning
A) foundation , beams , are not in position, ie error by 3%.
B) different methods of measurement differ by 3%.
if A) Not sure whether 3% is allowed in industrial facilties.
oopps, the position of the machine is wrong by 3%. Need to redo the piping :doh:.
Anyway, it looks like none, AMK excepted, actually ask for surveyor's results. Don't actually check whether we get what we paid for.
So if I was a developer, I would built according to BCA plans, my sales brochure shows extra space by 3% in aircon ledge, balcony. Make them shorter but same width :D.
if the law permits that I can charge them extra by overbuilding, I would enlarge the AC ledge :D
hopefully, the government can tighthen to rein in misrepresentation by the developers.
Sometime the error start right at the moment they transfer the milestone datum point to the reference points of the construction. It is dynamic and too many variable, during the construction, to pin point. As such, the As Built mark up dimension is acceptable as final.
For piping, if the machine is out, there a thing called the tie in spool to handle these offset. This is usually measured at site and fabricate to suit. No need to redo..trust me, if redo, the entire building will need to redo and properly don’t get it right either.
Anybody has any idea where the error is introduced?
Meaning
A) foundation , beams , are not in position, ie error by 3%.
B) different methods of measurement differ by 3%.
if A) Not sure whether 3% is allowed in industrial facilties.
oopps, the position of the machine is wrong by 3%. Need to redo the piping :doh:.
Anyway, it looks like none, AMK excepted, actually ask for surveyor's results. Don't actually check whether we get what we paid for.
So if I was a developer, I would built according to BCA plans, my sales brochure shows extra space by 3% in aircon ledge, balcony. Make them shorter but same width :D.
if the law permits that I can charge them extra by overbuilding, I would enlarge the AC ledge :D
hopefully, the government can tighthen to rein in misrepresentation by the developers.
Errr.... Your aircon ledge area already counted in approved strata area, that will be the declared area to buyers. Cannot show extra in sales brochure. build extra also cannot charge extra.
Even worse, if BCA know u build extra, they can get the developer to hack the extra:tsk-tsk:
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