View Full Version : Release of Q2 Statistics
bargain hunter
22-07-11, 13:50
http://www.ura.gov.sg/pr/text/2011/pr11-95.html
22 July 2011
Release of 2nd quarter 2011 real estate statistics
The Urban Redevelopment Authority (URA) released today the real estate statistics for 2nd Quarter 2011.
PRIVATE RESIDENTIAL PROPERTIES
Prices and Rentals
The rate of price increases continues to moderate. Prices of private residential properties increased by 2.0% in 2nd Quarter 2011, lower than the 2.2% increase in the previous quarter. This was the 7th consecutive quarter in which the rate of increase in private housing prices had moderated.
Prices of non-landed properties in Rest of Central Region1 (RCR) and Outside Central Region (OCR) increased at a more moderated pace. Prices of non-landed properties in RCR and OCR increased by 1.1% and 1.7%, lower than the increase of 2.0% and 3.1% in the previous quarter. Prices in the Core Central Region2 (CCR) increased by 1.6% in 2nd Quarter 2011, faster than the 1.1% increase in the previous quarter (see Annexes A-1 (http://www.ura.gov.sg/pr/graphics/2011/pr11-95a1.pdf), A-2 (http://www.ura.gov.sg/pr/graphics/2011/pr11-95a2.pdf), A-6 (http://www.ura.gov.sg/pr/graphics/2011/pr11-95a6.pdf) & A-7 (http://www.ura.gov.sg/pr/graphics/2011/pr11-95a7.pdf)3).
Rentals of private residential properties4 increased by 1.3% in 2nd Quarter 2011, compared with the 1.2% increase in the previous quarter (see Annexes A-3 (http://www.ura.gov.sg/pr/graphics/2011/pr11-95a3.pdf) & A-4 (http://www.ura.gov.sg/pr/graphics/2011/pr11-95a4.pdf)5).
Supply in the Pipeline
The supply of residential units in the pipeline continues to build up. As at the end of 2nd Quarter 2011, there was a total supply of 71,111 uncompleted private residential units from projects in the pipeline6, higher than the 68,887 units in 1st Quarter 20117 (see Annexes E-1 (http://www.ura.gov.sg/pr/graphics/2011/pr11-95e1.pdf) & E-2 (http://www.ura.gov.sg/pr/graphics/2011/pr11-95e2.pdf)8).
Of the supply in the pipeline, 33,899 units remained unsold as at 2Q2011. The unsold units comprised 10,309 units in CCR, 7,610 units in RCR and 15,980 units in OCR (see Annexes B-1 (http://www.ura.gov.sg/pr/graphics/2011/pr11-95b1.pdf) & B-2 (http://www.ura.gov.sg/pr/graphics/2011/pr11-95b2.pdf)).
Launches and Take-up
A total of 4,802 uncompleted private residential units were launched for sale by developers in 2nd Quarter 2011, compared with 4,130 units in 1st Quarter 2011 (see Annex C-1 (http://www.ura.gov.sg/pr/graphics/2011/pr11-95c1.pdf)). At the same time, 4,325 uncompleted private residential units were sold by developers, compared with 3,430 units in 1st Quarter 2011. Developers also sold 119 completed private residential units in 2nd Quarter 2011 (see Annex C-2 (http://www.ura.gov.sg/pr/graphics/2011/pr11-95c2.pdf)).
Sub-sales
Sub-sales accounted for 7.4% of all sale transactions in 2nd Quarter 2011, lower than the 8.3% recorded in 1st Quarter 2011 (see Annex D (http://www.ura.gov.sg/pr/graphics/2011/pr11-95d.pdf)).
Stock and Vacancy
The stock of private residential units increased by 2,054 units in 2nd Quarter 2011. At the same time, the vacancy rate of completed private residential units increased from 4.9% as at the end of 1st Quarter 2011 to 5.1% as at the end of 2nd Quarter 2011 (see Annex E-1 (http://www.ura.gov.sg/pr/graphics/2011/pr11-95e1.pdf)).
Executive Condominiums
The total stock of completed Executive Condominium (EC) units remained at 10,430 units as at the end of 2nd Quarter 2011. In addition, there were 4,194 EC units in the pipeline (see Annex E-1 (http://www.ura.gov.sg/pr/graphics/2011/pr11-95e1.pdf)).
stalingrad
22-07-11, 13:58
so, OCR beats CCR again? wow, even I am surprised by the momentum.
Landed properties are the big winners, powering way ahead of non-landed properties. Owners of Terraces and Semi-Ds are asking high high prices propelled by the landed scarcity factor. Looks like we are moving to a situation where the landed segment will be an exclusive playground for the rich and affluent!
Taken from BT
Of the latest supply in the pipeline, 33,899 units remained unsold as at Q2 2011.
Breakdown
CCR - 10,309 units
RCR - 7,610 units
OCR - 15,980 units
Considering the typically lower transaction volume of CCR compared to OCR properties, would it be correct to say that there is already an over supply problem in CCR?
Taken from BT
Of the latest supply in the pipeline, 33,899 units remained unsold as at Q2 2011.
Breakdown
CCR - 10,309 units
RCR - 7,610 units
OCR - 15,980 units
Considering the typically lower transaction volume of CCR compared to OCR properties, would it be correct to say that there is already an over supply problem in CCR?
I think it is oversupply at their current prices.
Cool, q-o-q, CCR is increasing and RCR and OCR are decreasing!! Looks like the tide is turning! Congrats to CCR supporter :D
Guess those commie who pretended to blast CCR, hoping that the price gap will narrow enuf for them to switch can only dream on :p
I just rejected a $1550 psf offer for my 33 year old sommerville park unit :spliff:
bargain hunter
22-07-11, 14:34
1550psf is only market price for sommerville, not much premium. why would u accept?
Cool, q-o-q, CCR is increasing and RCR and OCR are decreasing!! Looks like the tide is turning! Congrats to CCR supporter :D
Guess those commie who pretended to blast CCR, hoping that the price gap will narrow enuf for them to switch can only dream on :p
I just rejected a $1550 psf offer for my 33 year old sommerville park unit :spliff:
stalingrad
22-07-11, 14:35
Cool, q-o-q, CCR is increasing and RCR and OCR are decreasing!! Looks like the tide is turning! Congrats to CCR supporter :D
Guess those commie who pretended to blast CCR, hoping that the price gap will narrow enuf for them to switch can only dream on :p
I just rejected a $1550 psf offer for my 33 year old sommerville park unit :spliff:
huh? what are you smoking in your pipe, man? read the article again. Man, he can't even read a simple article.
if you can't read, I will help you. OCR prices have risen more quickly than CCR prices for 10 quarters in a row. get it?
stalingrad
22-07-11, 14:40
1550psf is only market price for sommerville, not much premium. why would u accept?
I bet 1,550psf is the same price the property could command in 2007. Of course, he would not accept.
This is the guy that kept saying that d'leedon is very good. yes, it is so good no one is buying it.
Wild Falcon
22-07-11, 14:43
?? Still converging leh.
OCR +1.7%
CCR +1.6%
In any case, its becoming irrelevant as prices clearly move together. CCR which has been underperforming in the past quarters are still not catching up. Catching up means it has to EXCEED the growth in OCR from now on to be on par with OCR price performance.
Cool, q-o-q, CCR is increasing and RCR and OCR are decreasing!! Looks like the tide is turning! Congrats to CCR supporter :D
Guess those commie who pretended to blast CCR, hoping that the price gap will narrow enuf for them to switch can only dream on :p
I just rejected a $1550 psf offer for my 33 year old sommerville park unit :spliff:
stalingrad
22-07-11, 14:55
this is an ad for summerville park in 2007:
Condo For Sale: Sommerville Park at Farrer Rd (D10)
Sell below bank valuation, Expats Choice! Farrer MRT + Freehold
OPEN HOUSE
Blk 103, Upper Maisonette, 1884 sqft
3 Bedroom + 1, Big balcony, renovated
Spacious Living & Dining room
Quiet, Greenery, Vacant possession
Amenities, Market, Food Court, Farrer Court MRT
Near NYPS, many good schools
Mins to Botanic Gardens, Orchard Rd, Holland Village
Situated on large Prime Land with Enbloc Potential
Good Investment!
2.98M
the price works out to be 1,582psf, higher than $1,550. of course, he would be pissed and reject. basically, his capital gain in four years is a big zero, if not negative.
Frankly, I know that D10 has stagnated, but I never realized it is so down on its luck. the rest of the country has almost doubled. but these D10 is still under water. even I find it amazing.
so, OCR beats CCR again? wow, even I am surprised by the momentum.
did u say CCR not moving?
1550psf is only market price for sommerville, not much premium. why would u accept?
BH, exactly. This unit of mine is a ground floor townhse. Considering the size, $1550 is pretty decent and i consider this as somewhat a base price. And again, considering the age, its darn decent imo. For the smaller 2/3 bedders, my neighbours have been rejecting offers of 1800/ 1900 psf coz we know the value and untapped potential of older developments. To many of us, nothing less than 2000 psf is acceptable to us, especially when you consider new developments has lots of wasted space.
To me, smart money are turning to CCR (or even fake CCR for that matter) now.
Here is a compilation of all D9,10,11 transaction between Q42010 to Q2 2011.
Notice that in between Q1 and Q2, prices of D9.10.11 has gone up by 2%, while the ave size of property has gone down by 5.4%.
Period / No units / ave size / ave psf
Q2 2011 / 1113 / 1420sf / $ 1,831psf
Q1 2011 / 968 / 1501sf / $ 1,794psf
Q4 2010 / 1390 / 1491sf / $ 1,780psf
?? Still converging leh.
OCR +1.7%
CCR +1.6%
In any case, its becoming irrelevant as prices clearly move together. CCR which has been underperforming in the past quarters are still not catching up. Catching up means it has to EXCEED the growth in OCR from now on to be on par with OCR price performance.
Even though I'm an accountant, i dislike historical data as it serve no purpose. RCR/OCR rate of growth is -ve while CCR is +ve. I'm quietly confident we r at the turning point. I'm beginning to receive more enquiries and some are locals to view my townhse.
this is an ad for summerville park in 2007:
Condo For Sale: Sommerville Park at Farrer Rd (D10)
Sell below bank valuation, Expats Choice! Farrer MRT + Freehold
OPEN HOUSE
Blk 103, Upper Maisonette, 1884 sqft
3 Bedroom + 1, Big balcony, renovated
Spacious Living & Dining room
Quiet, Greenery, Vacant possession
Amenities, Market, Food Court, Farrer Court MRT
Near NYPS, many good schools
Mins to Botanic Gardens, Orchard Rd, Holland Village
Situated on large Prime Land with Enbloc Potential
Good Investment!
2.98M
the price works out to be 1,582psf, higher than $1,550. of course, he would be pissed and reject. basically, his capital gain in four years is a big zero, if not negative.
Frankly, I know that D10 has stagnated, but I never realized it is so down on its luck. the rest of the country has almost doubled. but these D10 is still under water. even I find it amazing.
Do u call it undervalued then? since the whole country chong x2 liao then this place havnt move ? woodlands also moved? if not , i will conclude even when one holds FH, when its 30+++ years, good luck to u?
stalingrad
22-07-11, 15:28
Do u call it undervalued then? since the whole country chong x2 liao then this place havnt move ? woodlands also moved? if not , i will conclude even when one holds FH, when its 30+++ years, good luck to u?
No, I wouldn't call it undervalued. just because D10 properties have stagnated doesn't mean it will come back to catch up with the rest. Temporary irrationality can cause a class of assets to be temporarily undervalued. but D10 properties' stagnation is not due to irrationality. D10 properties have lost their edge over properties in the suburb. People have no reason to live in D10, as they did before.
I frankly won't live in D10 even if I could pay lower prices for properties there than I would D5 prices.
No, I wouldn't call it undervalued. just because D10 properties have stagnated doesn't mean it will come back to catch up with the rest. Temporary irrationality can cause a class of assets to be temporarily undervalued. but D10 properties' stagnation is not due to irrationality. D10 properties have lost their edge over properties in the suburb. People have no reason to live in D10, as they did before.
I frankly won't live in D10 even if I could pay lower prices for properties there than I would D5 prices.
hahahahahaha......even if you want, I doubt you can afford it. Not that i'm looking down on you, but you are just not at that level to appreciate the finer things in life.
stalingrad
22-07-11, 15:41
No, I wouldn't call it undervalued. just because D10 properties have stagnated doesn't mean it will come back to catch up with the rest. Temporary irrationality can cause a class of assets to be temporarily undervalued. but D10 properties' stagnation is not due to irrationality. D10 properties have lost their edge over properties in the suburb. People have no reason to live in D10, as they did before.
I frankly won't live in D10 even if I could pay lower prices for properties there than I would D5 prices.
hahahahahaha......even if you want, I doubt you can afford it. Not that i'm looking down on you, but you are just not at that level to appreciate the finer things in life.
what finer things? everyone knows that sommerville park is a dump. it just cannot find a buyer, just like tulip garden.
I frankly won't live in D10 even if I could pay lower prices for properties there than I would D5 prices.
Did a compilation for D5 property.
Prices of D5 properties has gone up by 5.5% between Q1 and Q2, while there is negligible difference in the ave unit size.
Period / No units / ave size / ave psf
Q2 2011 / 234 / 1248sf / $ 1,060psf
Q1 2011 / 183 / 1253sf / $ 1,005psf
Q4 2010 / 238 / 1216sf / $ 991psf
bargain hunter
22-07-11, 15:46
u mean one of those 4000 sq ft townhouses? very few transactions in past 2 years and the last one in mar was 1548psf so yeah still not much of a premium. but i agree that a buyer for this sort of quantum is still hard to come by, so it was indeed a decent offer.
but becoz of that, i feel that while smart money is buying in CCR, they are still mindful of the quantum (as opposed to 2007, when psf mattered more than quantum).
i also still feel that the newly completed big sized (2000 sq ft and above) units in CCR are still tough to sell/rent out at decent yields.
BH, exactly. This unit of mine is a ground floor townhse. Considering the size, $1550 is pretty decent and i consider this as somewhat a base price. And again, considering the age, its darn decent imo. For the smaller 2/3 bedders, my neighbours have been rejecting offers of 1800/ 1900 psf coz we know the value and untapped potential of older developments. To many of us, nothing less than 2000 psf is acceptable to us, especially when you consider new developments has lots of wasted space.
To me, smart money are turning to CCR (or even fake CCR for that matter) now.
u mean one of those 4000 sq ft townhouses? very few transactions in past 2 years and the last one in mar was 1548psf so yeah still not much of a premium. but i agree that a buyer for this sort of quantum is still hard to come by, so it was indeed a decent offer.
but becoz of that, i feel that while smart money is buying in CCR, they are still mindful of the quantum (as opposed to 2007, when psf mattered more than quantum).
i also still feel that the newly completed big sized (2000 sq ft and above) units in CCR are still tough to sell/rent out at decent yields.
I agree with BH. Not many people can afford to pay 15xxpsf for a 4000 sq feet town house. That price is pretty attractive as of now.
[quote=HP65]
what finer things? everyone knows that sommerville park is a dump. it just cannot find a buyer, just like tulip garden.
I wonder what condo are you living in to condemn sommerville and tulip garden as dump. Right now their price is a little on the high side because one can get a much newer unit at around the same price at around the same location. The reason for their high price is only due to the en bloc potential and as long as there is this potential, there will be willing buyers.
stalingrad
22-07-11, 16:01
I agree with BH. Not many people can afford to pay 15xxpsf for a 4000 sq feet town house. That price is pretty attractive as of now.
[quote=stalingrad]
I wonder what condo are you living in to condemn sommerville and tulip garden as dump. Right now their price is a little on the high side because one can get a much newer unit at around the same price at around the same location. The reason for their high price is only due to the en bloc potential and as long as there is this potential, there will be willing buyers.
I heard so many stories about management committee at SP not doing its job in upkeeping because they just want to sell the place. as a result, some parts of the project look very "3rd world", quoting some people.
No, I wouldn't call it undervalued. just because D10 properties have stagnated doesn't mean it will come back to catch up with the rest. Temporary irrationality can cause a class of assets to be temporarily undervalued. but D10 properties' stagnation is not due to irrationality. D10 properties have lost their edge over properties in the suburb. People have no reason to live in D10, as they did before.
I frankly won't live in D10 even if I could pay lower prices for properties there than I would D5 prices.
so what D5 have D10 dont have and is inferior that cause it to have no reason to live there? or any other district in that matter? IF we assume anyone can afford a 3m house.
Average rental for Sommerville is $3.50 psf, so based on 4200sqft, your townhouse could potential get a rental income will be $14,700 per month, or $176,400 per year (excluding expenses and taxes)
So based on current value of $1500psf, your property rental yield will be 2.8%, excluding interest, maintenance, tax and depreciation.
bargain hunter
22-07-11, 16:11
normally for extra large unit sizes, the rental psf is nearer to the lower quartile than the average (if the project has smaller sizes, in this case, 1948sq ft, 1302 sq ft etc).
Average rental for Sommerville is $3.50 psf, so based on 4200sqft, your townhouse could potential get a rental income will be $14,700 per month, or $176,400 per year (excluding expenses and taxes)
So based on current value of $1500psf, your property rental yield will be 2.8%, excluding interest, maintenance, tax and depreciation.
stalingrad
22-07-11, 16:15
normally for extra large unit sizes, the rental psf is nearer to the lower quartile than the average (if the project has smaller sizes, in this case, 1948sq ft, 1302 sq ft etc).
exactly. the market rate of this townhouse is probably $3psf, $36psf per year. He rejected an offer of $1550 psf. that means the buyer would have had a rental yield of just 2.3%, if he intended to rent it out. with all the incidental costs, the true yield is just about 2%, not much higher than fixed deposit rates.
I believe it was a mistake for him to reject the offer. I am actually surprised to hear from him that someone made that offer. Heard some really grim stories about this place.
bargain hunter
22-07-11, 16:18
these 2 ads have been up for months, no takers:
http://www.propertyguru.com.sg/listing/3246056/for-rent-king-s-8
http://www.propertyguru.com.sg/listing/4636050/for-rent-leonie-hill-residences
i'd rent leonie hill residences penthouse anytime for 12k. :)
14.7k for SP townhouse is simply not realistic unless its fully renovated.
Average rental for Sommerville is $3.50 psf, so based on 4200sqft, your townhouse could potential get a rental income will be $14,700 per month, or $176,400 per year (excluding expenses and taxes)
So based on current value of $1500psf, your property rental yield will be 2.8%, excluding interest, maintenance, tax and depreciation.
normally for extra large unit sizes, the rental psf is nearer to the lower quartile than the average (if the project has smaller sizes, in this case, 1948sq ft, 1302 sq ft etc).
Thats true, so it should be around $3.16 psf x 4200 x 12 = $159,264 per year.
How much you reckon will be the maintenance cost for town houses?
exactly. the market rate of this townhouse is probably $3psf, $36psf per year. He rejected an offer of $1550 psf. that means the buyer would have had a rental yield of just 2.3%, if he intended to rent it out. with all the incidental costs, the true yield is just about 2%, not much higher than fixed deposit rates.
I believe it was a mistake for him to reject the offer. I am actually surprised to hear from him that someone made that offer. Heard some really grim stories about this place.
the yield will be below 2% if you take into consider the financing cost of 1-1.5%
bargain hunter
22-07-11, 16:24
don't worry about bro HP65, he has holding power. i agree with him for long term view. hold until en-bloc (not sure when though).
exactly. the market rate of this townhouse is probably $3psf, $36psf per year. He rejected an offer of $1550 psf. that means the buyer would have had a rental yield of just 2.3%, if he intended to rent it out. with all the incidental costs, the true yield is just about 2%, not much higher than fixed deposit rates.
I believe it was a mistake for him to reject the offer. I am actually surprised to hear from him that someone made that offer. Heard some really grim stories about this place.
bargain hunter
22-07-11, 16:26
gotta ask bro HP65. my guess is $500 (could it be more?! :confused: )
Thats true, so it should be around $3.16 psf x 4200 x 12 = $159,264 per year.
How much you reckon will be the maintenance cost for town houses?
stalingrad
22-07-11, 16:28
the yield will be below 2% if you take into consider the financing cost of 1-1.5%
to bring the rental yield to 3% per year, the buyer should offer only $1200psf. but the buyer is willing to buy $1,550, why? if indeed that is not a lie, the buyer probably had en bloc in mind. but en bloc at good prices for that location is unlikely.
to make a offer of 1,550 work, the en bloc price should be at least 1700psf. adding construction cost of 400psf, the new condo has to sell at least 2,200 to break even. that is why, enbloc is not likely.
d'leedon can't sell even at 1600psf.
to bring the rental yield to 3% per year, the buyer should offer only $1200psf. but the buyer is willing to buy $1,550, why? if indeed that is not a lie, the buyer probably had en bloc in mind. but en bloc at good prices for that location is unlikely.
to make a offer of 1,550 work, the en bloc price should be at least 1700psf. adding construction cost of 400psf, the new condo has to sell at least 2,200 to break even. that is why, enbloc is not likely.
d'leedon can't sell even at 1600psf.
Tulip garden, spanish village and SP all have a plot ratio of 1.6. Not alot if you ask me, if the buyer buys at 1600psf, the upside of an en bloc will not be too big. The downside of not having an en bloc and to wait for another 1 or 2 decade will be even greater. $1200psf on the other hand will be a very attractive offer.
to bring the rental yield to 3% per year, the buyer should offer only $1200psf. but the buyer is willing to buy $1,550, why? if indeed that is not a lie, the buyer probably had en bloc in mind. but en bloc at good prices for that location is unlikely.
to make a offer of 1,550 work, the en bloc price should be at least 1700psf. adding construction cost of 400psf, the new condo has to sell at least 2,200 to break even. that is why, enbloc is not likely.
d'leedon can't sell even at 1600psf.
developers can offer much higher price if the plot ratio is not maximized, plus 10% bonus GFA for balcony. Developers only need to pay DC for balcony bonus and unused plot ratio, which will bring down the average land cost. To me that's where the value of enbloc is. Since SP is 33 years old, most likely it has such enbloc potential since the baseline is on the master plan ages ago
D'leedon units are transacted between $1,487 and $1,757psf, what do you mean by it cannot sell at 1600psf?
developers can offer much higher price if the plot ratio is not maximized, plus 10% bonus GFA for balcony. Developers only need to pay DC for balcony bonus and unused plot ratio, which will bring down the average land cost. To me that's where the value of enbloc is. Since SP is 33 years old, most likely it has such enbloc potential since the baseline is on the master plan ages ago
D'leedon units are transacted between $1,487 and $1,757psf, what do you mean by it cannot sell at 1600psf?
D'leedon average transaction price for the last 2Q is around $1570 to 1590 and the average size is about 900sqft.
stalingrad
22-07-11, 17:32
D'leedon average transaction price for the last 2Q is around $1570 to 1590 and the average size is about 900sqft.
need I say more?
D'leedon is LH99, so it loses the premium of a FH unit.
Sommerville, tulip garden and spanish village are all big development with many units. But currently developers now are very reluctant to spend alot of money on a single plot of land. Furthermore, these 3 developments are competing among themselves for a more attractive price for the developers. LOL.
Normally during an en bloc, the bigger townhouse, mas units will get less psf compared to the smaller units. My guess is that if an en bloc does go thru, GH's townhouse will fetch around 19xx-21xx psf. The price of paying 15xxpsf with CM4 does not sound very attractive to me.
stalingrad
22-07-11, 17:51
D'leedon is LH99, so it loses the premium of a FH unit.
Sommerville, tulip garden and spanish village are all big development with many units. But currently developers now are very reluctant to spend alot of money on a single plot of land. Furthermore, these 3 developments are competing among themselves for a more attractive price for the developers. LOL.
Normally during an en bloc, the bigger townhouse, mas units will get less psf compared to the smaller units. My guess is that if an en bloc does go thru, GH's townhouse will fetch around 19xx-21xx psf. The price of paying 15xxpsf with CM4 does not sound very attractive to me.
if d'leedon cannot sell at $1600psf, what is the chance of a redeveloper of Sommerville selling at 2,800psf, which is needed to make the en bloc purchase worthwhile.
developers can make more money by buying OCR lands from the Government. Just look at FEO's profit margin at the tennery.
need I say more?
No need to say anything, I find the information for you to make it easier:
From URA's website:
From Apr to Jun, D'Leedon unites transacted between S$1,482psf to S$2,055 psf from Apr to June 2011
if d'leedon cannot sell at $1600psf, what is the chance of a redeveloper of Sommerville selling at 2,800psf, which is needed to make the en bloc purchase worthwhile.
developers can make more money by buying OCR lands from the Government. Just look at FEO's profit margin at the tennery.
who says the developer have to sell at 2800psf?
if GH's unit sell to developer at 2000psf, it does not mean that the developer are paying 2000psf per plot ratio. Maybe they are only paying 1300psf per plot ratio? which means they can break even if they sell you at 1800psf for the new unit.
bargain hunter
22-07-11, 19:00
back to fundamentals, rental of OCR still going up more than CCR.
it seems that there is still a lot of rental demand at the low end of the market, be it hdb flats or OCR condos. but i also hold the view that will change in the years down the road. :ashamed1:
http://www.ura.gov.sg/pr/text/2011/pr11-95.html
Rentals
Rentals of private residential properties4 increased by 1.3% in 2nd Quarter 2011, compared with the 1.2% increase in the previous quarter (see Annexes A-3 (http://www.ura.gov.sg/pr/graphics/2011/pr11-95a3.pdf) & A-4 (http://www.ura.gov.sg/pr/graphics/2011/pr11-95a4.pdf)5).
I recently rejected a $25xx psf offer from some agent don't know how they get to know my number and owned unit (who is selling our data to these agents? :simmering:). Sell prime Orchard at such price? I must be an idiot! :doh:
Cool, q-o-q, CCR is increasing and RCR and OCR are decreasing!! Looks like the tide is turning! Congrats to CCR supporter :D
Guess those commie who pretended to blast CCR, hoping that the price gap will narrow enuf for them to switch can only dream on :p
I just rejected a $1550 psf offer for my 33 year old sommerville park unit :spliff:
14.7k for SP townhouse is simply not realistic unless its fully renovated.
Sorry have to speak up for HP65. I have a friend who also has a townhouse in sommerville. It's rented out 14.5k 3 months ago. At the time already considered low. He also had an offer ard 6m I think, and he rejected.
Have u actually been there ? Very big apartment and land size. Very peaceful and convenient. Remind me of Yong An Park. The value of this type of property lies both in its location and its big land size. My friend is very firm not to sell it. He said ppl in SG had not really realized the value of prime land, especially large prime land next to botanic garden.
Very big apartment and land size. Very peaceful and convenient.. The value of this type of property lies both in its location and its big land size. My friend is very firm not to sell it. He said ppl in SG had not really realized the value of prime land, especially large prime land next to botanic garden.
Well said. The lush green serene ambiance is a great contrast to the busy road outside. Not all will appreciate quiet peaceful surrounding n the charm of the area.
bargain hunter
22-07-11, 20:31
i m not putting HP65 down at all, so no need to speak up for him. :) i agree with you on the charm of sommerville and yong an. but really depends on the condition of the unit. becoz i got the impression that HP65 did not do much renovation in the last 30 years hence, i said 14.7k is not realistic.
Rental for big units has not gone up much in the last 3 months has it?
i am all for big old units/land size (agreeing with proud owner) but from an en-bloc perspective. but for those looking from rental perspective, better have holding power. :)
i still think BIG NEW units got problem justifying their prices though. :ashamed1: low rental yield, yet plot ratio maximised liao.
Sorry have to speak up for HP65. I have a friend who also has a townhouse in sommerville. It's rented out 14.5k 3 months ago. At the time already considered low. He also had an offer ard 6m I think, and he rejected.
Have u actually been there ? Very big apartment and land size. Very peaceful and convenient. Remind me of Yong An Park. The value of this type of property lies both in its location and its big land size. My friend is very firm not to sell it. He said ppl in SG had not really realized the value of prime land, especially large prime land next to botanic garden.
bargain hunter
22-07-11, 22:17
some coincidence. the title of today's cover page of City & Country pullout of "The Edge": Growth in prime rents to soften.
i feel that the main reason for price increase is the housing shortage of HDB causing the overall property market to rise. This caused the price being pushed upwards (biggest increase is seen in HDB and the lowest increase in prime location).
In a purely speculative market, the price is being pulled upwards by prime location and the price increase is tapered down to the lower end housing.
Just my thought and i may be wrong.
some coincidence. the title of today's cover page of City & Country pullout of "The Edge": Growth in prime rents to soften.
got soft copy to share?
From URA's website:
From Apr to Jun, D'Leedon unites transacted between S$1,482psf to S$2,055 psf from Apr to June 2011
There are a total of 56 transactions for D'Leedon between Apr to Jun 2011.
The average psf price is $1597psf and average size is 837sqft.
The 2055 you highlighted is one-off and it is for a 786sqft unit.
No, I wouldn't call it undervalued. just because D10 properties have stagnated doesn't mean it will come back to catch up with the rest. Temporary irrationality can cause a class of assets to be temporarily undervalued. but D10 properties' stagnation is not due to irrationality. D10 properties have lost their edge over properties in the suburb. People have no reason to live in D10, as they did before.
I frankly won't live in D10 even if I could pay lower prices for properties there than I would D5 prices.
Private home subsales rise 10.6% in Q2
With speculators out, supply chain is more efficient now: Savills
By KALPANA RASHIWALA
THE number of private homes sold in the subsale market, which is often used as a proxy of speculative activity, rose 10.6 per cent quarter on quarter to 712 units in the second quarter of this year, but this pace of increase was slower than a nearly 27 per cent jump reflected in the 4,562 new private homes sold by developers, according to Savills' analysis.
http://www.businesstimes.com.sg/mnt/media/image/launched/2011-07-22/krss22.jpg (http://forums.condosingapore.com/)
'With speculators weeded out from the market after the higher seller's stamp duty (SSD) rates introduced in January, more genuine home buyers now have direct access to choice units from developers in the primary market. So the supply chain has become more efficient with the 'middlemen' or speculators cut out', said Savills Singapore research head Alan Cheong.
'The full impact of the January 2011 anti-speculation measures will need time to work their way through the system since the SSD would affect only those who bought a private home from Jan 14 and sell it within four years of purchase,' he added.
The SSD rates are 16, 12, 8 and 4 per cent respectively for those who sell their properties in the first, second, third and fourth year of purchase respectively.
Those who had, a few years earlier, picked up private homes which are now still under construction, would generally still find it worthwhile to divest them, given the recovery in property values since the global financial crisis, say property consultants. This is expected to continue to contribute to a steady stream of subsale activity.
'This will especially be the case for projects which are close to or have just been completed since buying interest in such developments is typically higher among those who would like to purchase a property that they can move into or rent out immediately,' says Ong Choon Fah, DTZ's COO and head of consulting and research, SE Asia.
Subsales refer to secondary-market deals in pro-jects that have yet to receive a Certificate of Statutory Completion (CSC).
Resales, which are also secondary-market transactions but involve projects with CSC, rose 17.5 per cent quarter on quarter to 4,144 units in Q2 2011, shows Savills' analysis of caveats captured by URA Realis.
The subsale and resale figures were based on caveats lodged (excluding en bloc sales) while new home sales by developers were based on developers' submissions to Urban Redevelopment Authority's surveys. The latest Q2 developer sales figure was compiled as the sum of monthly sales from April to June 2011; however, the final tally to be released by URA today may be lower as it will take into account units returned by buyers.
Savills' analysis covered landed and non-landed properties, excluding executive condos, which are a hybrid of public and private housing.
The study showed that the most popular non-landed project in the subsale market in Q2 2011 was Livia in Pasir Ris (29 subsales), followed by 10 Shelford (24 subsales), The Clift along McCallum Street (22 units), Clover by The Park in Bishan (21 units) and Double Bay Residences in Simei (21 units).
The Clift received Temporary Occupation Permit (TOP) in Q1 this year while Livia and Clover by The Park clinched the same approval this month. Typically, CSC for a project can be obtained one to six months after it has received TOP.
District 12 (which includes Balestier and Toa Payoh) was the most popular subsale district among non-landed homes in Q2, followed by prime districts 9 and 11.
Among non-landed resale transactions, the most sought-after districts were 15 (which includes Katong, Telok Kurau, East Coast Road and Siglap), 10 and 16.
In the landed resale segment, District 19 (which includes Upper Serangoon and Hougang) topped the chart, followed by District 15 and 16. The last includes Upper East Coast, Bedok and part of Upper Changi Road East.
Clearly the market dont see eye to eye with you. There are still many pple whom appreciate the lush greenery and diverse character of D10, chances D10 becomes lower than D5 is not too high in the near future. As least in the mind of the majority.
Anyway its a good thing, so u wont be faced with an option to purchase at a lower price(than D5) to consider "downgrading" to D10 in the far away future. Its a good thing your wife hates D10 as well.
There are a total of 56 transactions for D'Leedon between Apr to Jun 2011.
The average psf price is $1597psf and average size is 837sqft.
The 2055 you highlighted is one-off and it is for a 786sqft unit.
I was talking about the range of the samples; what's wrong with it?
It is too early to call that 2055psf/786sqft transaction an outlier now. Even the mean of 1597psf to which you refered is good enough to prove that D'Leedon can sell at 1600psf as a good portion of the transactions were done above 1600psf to result in the mean
I was talking about the range of the samples; what's wrong with it?
It is too early to call that 2055psf/786sqft transaction an outlier now. Even the mean of 1597psf to which you refered is good enough to prove that D'Leedon can sell at 1600psf as a good portion of the transactions were done above 1600psf to result in the mean
numbers can be very misleading if they are not presented properly.
Some Lakeside apartments are already going for $1400psf, so there is no reasons to doubt that D'Leedon will go above average price of $1600 soon. However looking at the average unit size of 786sqft, I think it does show some weakness in that development.
No, I wouldn't call it undervalued. just because D10 properties have stagnated doesn't mean it will come back to catch up with the rest. Temporary irrationality can cause a class of assets to be temporarily undervalued. but D10 properties' stagnation is not due to irrationality. D10 properties have lost their edge over properties in the suburb. People have no reason to live in D10, as they did before.
I frankly won't live in D10 even if I could pay lower prices for properties there than I would D5 prices.
Wow....strong statement..... Even same prices he wants to stay at west coast side.....amazing
numbers can be very misleading if they are not presented properly.
Some Lakeside apartments are already going for $1400psf, so there is no reasons to doubt that D'Leedon will go above average price of $1600 soon. However looking at the average unit size of 786sqft, I think it does show some weakness in that development.
Serious? Lakeside units selling 1400Psf? Don't mind share which development, I wanna check it out.
I comb thru D22 briefly, average 800 Psf n below. Centris touch 1k Psf . quiet scary to think someone dare chong 1400 when average Psf is ard 800psf. 1400psf issit those 350sqft hse? Ard $500k to buy "hotel room" house?
I recently rejected a $25xx psf offer from some agent don't know how they get to know my number and owned unit (who is selling our data to these agents? :simmering:). Sell prime Orchard at such price? I must be an idiot! :doh:
TB, I agree. If SC can afford to hold out Hilltops at $5000 psf and slowly A&A that place unit by unit, I dun see why you should sell out prime Orchard at 50% discount. Last weekend, I thought I saw somebody swimming at Hilltop main pool and from my place, it looks like only 2 units are occupied (at night can see only 2 units with lights on, furniture in the unit, with people moving around). The rest of the other units still machiam like under renovation. Unless its SC himself swimming in the pool :scared-4:
devilplate
23-07-11, 10:23
TB, I agree. If SC can afford to hold out Hilltops at $5000 psf and slowly A&A that place unit by unit, I dun see why you should sell out prime Orchard at 50% discount. Last weekend, I thought I saw somebody swimming at Hilltop main pool and from my place, it looks like only 2 units are occupied (at night can see only 2 units with lights on, furniture in the unit, with people moving around). The rest of the other units still machiam like under renovation. Unless its SC himself swimming in the pool :scared-4:
No wonder teddy so fed up lor....i believe his unit aso can fetch 2500psf in 07....hehe:p
devilplate
23-07-11, 10:24
To pay 6mil for a townhse in sp....must b foreigner? I wud go for landed n rebuild if i got such budget
numbers can be very misleading if they are not presented properly.
Some Lakeside apartments are already going for $1400psf, so there is no reasons to doubt that D'Leedon will go above average price of $1600 soon. However looking at the average unit size of 786sqft, I think it does show some weakness in that development.
Interesting, you use the "asking price" of 1400psf as the benchmark for the whole Lakeside area, but discount the actual "transacted price" of 2000psf for D'Leedon which is only one development
devilplate
23-07-11, 10:34
Interesting, you use the "asking price" of 1400psf as the benchmark for the whole Lakeside area, but discount the actual "transacted price" of 2000psf for D'Leedon which is only one development
Wah...ur first virgin post after 2yrs....:)
i m not putting HP65 down at all, so no need to speak up for him. :) i agree with you on the charm of sommerville and yong an. but really depends on the condition of the unit. becoz i got the impression that HP65 did not do much renovation in the last 30 years hence, i said 14.7k is not realistic.
Rental for big units has not gone up much in the last 3 months has it?
i am all for big old units/land size (agreeing with proud owner) but from an en-bloc perspective. but for those looking from rental perspective, better have holding power. :)
i still think BIG NEW units got problem justifying their prices though. :ashamed1: low rental yield, yet plot ratio maximised liao.
BH, AMK, thx! No worries, not upset at all. BH, you're right, mine is in almost original condition. I'm actually the 2nd owner and I bought it at very low Px. But I also rent it out very low....it's a long term tenant. It definitely way below $14k per month. Actually, the tenant took very good care of the place and even make my place very homely & cozy.
Sorry have to speak up for HP65. I have a friend who also has a townhouse in sommerville. It's rented out 14.5k 3 months ago. At the time already considered low. He also had an offer ard 6m I think, and he rejected.
Have u actually been there ? Very big apartment and land size. Very peaceful and convenient. Remind me of Yong An Park. The value of this type of property lies both in its location and its big land size. My friend is very firm not to sell it. He said ppl in SG had not really realized the value of prime land, especially large prime land next to botanic garden.
agree with u ~
for that D5 carrot head to put down D10 is just a joke lol
kingkong1984
23-07-11, 11:36
Interesting, you use the "asking price" of 1400psf as the benchmark for the whole Lakeside area, but discount the actual "transacted price" of 2000psf for D'Leedon which is only one development
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stalingrad
23-07-11, 11:49
http://www.expatsingapore.com/forum/index.php?topic=48353.0
read some of the comments about rat droppings and cockroaches at sommerville park. filthy is how another renter put it.
I wouldn't live there if I could get it for free. honestly.
stalingrad
23-07-11, 11:55
who says the developer have to sell at 2800psf?
if GH's unit sell to developer at 2000psf, it does not mean that the developer are paying 2000psf per plot ratio. Maybe they are only paying 1300psf per plot ratio? which means they can break even if they sell you at 1800psf for the new unit.
so developers just buy land and build new condos to break even? They want at least 30% profit margin to go through the trouble. I bet FEO's profit margin at the tennery is at least 40%.
So if 1800 is the break even price for new condo built on sommerville park land, the price that developers would like to charge is at least 2300-2400psf. who is going to pay such prices for such a lousy location. that is why en bloc will fail unless inflation is so bad that you need to shell out 1000psf for a HDB flat.
stalingrad
23-07-11, 12:01
agree with u ~
for that D5 carrot head to put down D10 is just a joke lol
you ostriches of course agree with each other. You have been agreeing with each other since 2007 that CCR prices are undervalued and will have to catch up.
I wish you will continue to agree with each other and hold on to your CCR properties. better, yet, buy more. I encourage you to. I even defy you to. people like you are worse than dinos.
http://www.expatsingapore.com/forum/index.php?topic=48353.0
read some of the comments about rat droppings and cockroaches at sommerville park. filthy is how another renter put it.
I wouldn't live there if I could get it for free. honestly.
Wah....free also don't want. I want!! Who wants to give me free? :D
And to make some OCR supporters feel great, my 1 year old cairnhill 3 bedder was rented out at only $5kish per month after deducting maintenance fee. But like TB said, I'm not even interested to sell it even though I have a capital gain of 50% on the table anytime. This should be music to the ears of OCR supporters coz I believe some had 100% or more capital appreciation in the same time frame.
But does it concern me? Not at all...coz their gain is not my loss. $$ is there for everybody to make. So I dun quite understand why people like to bash CCR or OCR. It's as though if CCR gain, OCR will lose.
And for those who keep trying to calculate yield vs selling px. I suggest you guys save it coz do you think the sellers who are holding such units will care? Most of our purchase px is so low that we will just hold it/ rent it cheap. We can even rent it out at OCR prices if there is a major crisis. So dun bother to calculate yield coz it will never make sense to the buyer.
PS: the offer for my townhouse came from a foreigner. Ever since I sold out my Paterson unit to a PRC, I have regretted it and vow not to make the same mistake again.
devilplate
23-07-11, 12:44
Only a handful here bash ccr or ocr.... Be open to watever r lor....
I seriously dun tink there is any undervalued segment now.
Ccr recovered quite a fair bit from bottom 09 oredi....d1,2 aso ccr rite? Most projects there surpass 07 by 20% or more oredi... Its really illogical to believe tat its undervalued when compared to 07 previous peak....
I can say ccr is overvalued n ocr is undervalued in 07? No?
Only a handful here bash ccr or ocr.... Be open to watever r lor....
I seriously dun tink there is any undervalued segment now.
Ccr recovered quite a fair bit from bottom 09 oredi....d1,2 aso ccr rite? Most projects there surpass 07 by 20% or more oredi... Its really illogical to believe tat its undervalued when compared to 07 previous peak....
I can say ccr is overvalued n ocr is undervalued in 07? No?
Yup, saying CCR didn't move havnt moved in last 5 year is really sticking their head in the sand. My cousin made near to 1.5m just by buying in 2 CCR older properties in '09 and took 1/2 profit recently. That's 2 years only. Your Clift Also in hot demand. CCR not moving?
Frankly some CCR bashing OCR owners seems to he very proud that their properties appreciated 100% in the last 5 years. It's not like they are property gurus or what. Tons of HDB owners also got few folds returns without having putting any effort.
Many OCR locations are good with fantastic accessibility to admenaties and some destinated business hubs and are great for rental income. Mostly of these are 99 LH as they are just next to transport nodes n shopping complex.
What I cannot stand is some bashers insist their area is the best even when the market Psf price already tell otherwise. Some stabs of marble and larger swimming pool doesnt make it the best place in Singapore. Psf range tells about the general demand in a certain area. If one disagree, then tell me y on 2 coast we have, one cost 1500-2400(penthouse unit) 99 LH and other coast struggling with $1000(FH/999)? Is 1000 Psf area is great environment than 2500psf? The market is always right in my opinion .
As for which one got better appreciation, that is another debate altogether.
http://www.expatsingapore.com/forum/index.php?topic=48353.0
read some of the comments about rat droppings and cockroaches at sommerville park. filthy is how another renter put it.
I wouldn't live there if I could get it for free. honestly.
hahahaha! typical talk cock king :D
What I cannot stand is some bashers insist their area is the best even when the market Psf price already tell otherwise. Some stabs of marble and larger swimming pool doesnt make it the best place in Singapore. Psf range tells about the general demand in a certain area. If one disagree, then tell me y on 2 coast we have, one cost 1500-2400(penthouse unit) 99 LH and other coast struggling with $1000(FH/999)? Is 1000 Psf area is great environment than 2500psf? The market is always right in my opinion .
As for which one got better appreciation, that is another debate altogether.
You will be surprised one of them even go to the extend of bashing other condos in his district to argue that his condo is the best in the district. :eek:
http://www.expatsingapore.com/forum/index.php?topic=48353.0
read some of the comments about rat droppings and cockroaches at sommerville park. filthy is how another renter put it.
I wouldn't live there if I could get it for free. honestly.
I think you might have worried too much. I doubt that there will be people who would even want to trade their D10 properties with your best-of-Singapore condo, so save the worry for if-one-day-get-it-for-free.
By the way, although copper has almost quadrupled from its low in 08/09 but gold has at best doubled for the same time period, and copper is arguably more useful to human beings than gold, I wonder if you would ever give a copper ring to someone important as a significant token and tell the recipient how useful and profitable copper is to make you choose copper ring over a gold one. Copper may be more profitable than gold, but a the end of the day gold is precious metal and copper is not
http://www.expatsingapore.com/forum/index.php?topic=48353.0
read some of the comments about rat droppings and cockroaches at sommerville park. filthy is how another renter put it.
I wouldn't live there if I could get it for free. honestly.
Really funny guy... All his comments are to the extreme... He will ot buy d10 even if it's same price as west coast and he will not stay th SP even if its free.... For me i sure stay ah... Then rent outnmy other place..
Anyome offering free stay at SP? :D
I think you might have worried too much. I doubt that there will be people who would even want to trade their D10 properties with your best-of-Singapore condo, so save the worry for if-one-day-get-it-for-free.
By the way, although copper has almost quadrupled from its low in 08/09 but gold has at best doubled for the same time period, and copper is arguably more useful to human beings than gold, I wonder if you would ever give a copper ring to someone important as a significant token and tell the recipient how useful and profitable copper is to make you choose copper ring over a gold one. Copper may be more profitable than gold, but a the end of the day gold is precious metal and copper is not
Well said....
stalingrad
23-07-11, 15:51
I think you might have worried too much. I doubt that there will be people who would even want to trade their D10 properties with your best-of-Singapore condo, so save the worry for if-one-day-get-it-for-free.
By the way, although copper has almost quadrupled from its low in 08/09 but gold has at best doubled for the same time period, and copper is arguably more useful to human beings than gold, I wonder if you would ever give a copper ring to someone important as a significant token and tell the recipient how useful and profitable copper is to make you choose copper ring over a gold one. Copper may be more profitable than gold, but a the end of the day gold is precious metal and copper is not
yes, rat droppings and cockroaches are gold. then, buy and live in it. not me, I will not live in a dwelling with even one rat dropping.
stalingrad
23-07-11, 15:59
the debate here is getting more and more bizarre. losing the debate on whether D10 properties will outshine D5 or even D23 properties, these d10 owners now invoke the "value in the beauty" argument. go ahead, I wish you use this argument in your investment decisions and lose all the money you inherited from your ancestors. I don't think you made all that money youself, given how irrational you are and how ill grounded your arguments are.
Wild Falcon
23-07-11, 16:00
Maybe yield doesn't matter to you, but it matters to an rational investor. Some of you still haven't realised that in a mature market, we will not see the type of capital gains that we have realised in the past. Many of the OCR investments appreciated close to 200% in a few years. I'm 100% certain this will NOT happen in the future again. In a mature market, yields and cash flows becomes increasingly important. Many of you don't analyse but one interesting finding in the Q2 stats is OCR rental increase by 1.5% while CCR only 0.9%. OCR which traditionally gives the best yields is still pulling away from CCR. So while many are paying increasingly higher capital values for the CCR condos, the tenants do not see the value.
In short, at some time, some of us have to realise SG property market is becoming increasingly mature and rental yields will start to play an increasingly important role. Over time, many of us would like to retire and have an asset that gives us a stable cash flows (i.e. rentals or dividends) over a period of time, not the buy-and-sell strategy anymore.
And I'm speaking from a perspective of a rational investor and not a "i don't care because long time ago I buy my property cheap so rent cheap lor" investor. Many of us reshuffle our portfolio all the time - and many of us are not that old to have bought extremely cheap properties 10 years ago. Our strategy would have to be different.
And to make some OCR supporters feel great, my 1 year old cairnhill 3 bedder was rented out at only $5kish per month after deducting maintenance fee. But like TB said, I'm not even interested to sell it even though I have a capital gain of 50% on the table anytime. This should be music to the ears of OCR supporters coz I believe some had 100% or more capital appreciation in the same time frame.
But does it concern me? Not at all...coz their gain is not my loss. $$ is there for everybody to make. So I dun quite understand why people like to bash CCR or OCR. It's as though if CCR gain, OCR will lose.
And for those who keep trying to calculate yield vs selling px. I suggest you guys save it coz do you think the sellers who are holding such units will care? Most of our purchase px is so low that we will just hold it/ rent it cheap. We can even rent it out at OCR prices if there is a major crisis. So dun bother to calculate yield coz it will never make sense to the buyer.
PS: the offer for my townhouse came from a foreigner. Ever since I sold out my Paterson unit to a PRC, I have regretted it and vow not to make the same mistake again.
Landed properties are the big winners, powering way ahead of non-landed properties. Owners of Terraces and Semi-Ds are asking high high prices propelled by the landed scarcity factor. Looks like we are moving to a situation where the landed segment will be an exclusive playground for the rich and affluent!
yup. All the OCR, CCR, RRR talk, landed is the big winner for the past Q
Maybe yield doesn't matter to you, but it matters to an rational investor. Some of you still haven't realised that in a mature market, we will not see the type of capital gains that we have realised in the past. Many of the OCR investments appreciated close to 200% in a few years. I'm 100% certain this will NOT happen in the future again. In a mature market, yields and cash flows becomes increasingly important. Many of you don't analyse but one interesting finding in the Q2 stats is OCR rental increase by 1.5% while CCR only 0.9%. OCR which traditionally gives the best yields is still pulling away from CCR. So while many are paying increasingly higher capital values for the CCR condos, the tenants do not see the value.
In short, at some time, some of us have to realise SG property market is becoming increasingly mature and rental yields will start to play an increasingly important role. Over time, many of us would like to retire and have an asset that gives us a stable cash flows (i.e. rentals or dividends) over a period of time, not the buy-and-sell strategy anymore.
And I'm speaking from a perspective of a rational investor and not a "i don't care because long time ago I buy my property cheap so rent cheap lor" investor. Many of us reshuffle our portfolio all the time - and many of us are not that old to have bought extremely cheap properties 10 years ago. Our strategy would have to be different.
They are investors who don't care much about yield and they are absolutely rational. For example, those who invest in gold
While one is busy clipping coupon from newspaper to save $1 on a loaf of toast, another may thinking how to spend millions to improve the value of his shopping mall at orchard road. Both make sense in terms of value creation but just in different league
They are various investment strategies, some look at yield, some look at capital appreciation, some look at things beyond our fathom. Before making the verdict that the sky is only of the size of a 2m diameter circle, one may want to first make sure that he/she is not sitting at the bottom of a well
Serious? Lakeside units selling 1400Psf? Don't mind share which development, I wanna check it out.
I comb thru D22 briefly, average 800 Psf n below. Centris touch 1k Psf . quiet scary to think someone dare chong 1400 when average Psf is ard 800psf. 1400psf issit those 350sqft hse? Ard $500k to buy "hotel room" house?
Try doing a search for The Lakefront residences MM size apartment.
It is good to have different strategies in the property market which makes it exciting. Otherwise, it may be detrimental to the market.:)
Interesting, you use the "asking price" of 1400psf as the benchmark for the whole Lakeside area, but discount the actual "transacted price" of 2000psf for D'Leedon which is only one development
I am using URA transaction price of lakefront residences to highlight that Lakeside area apartment is already selling at $1400psf, I am not saying that the whole Lakeside area is selling at an average price of $1400.
I am worried for those subsequent buyers. :scared-3:
I am using URA transaction price of lakefront residences to highlight that Lakeside area apartment is already selling at $1400psf, I am not saying that the whole Lakeside area is selling at an average price of $1400.
I am using URA transaction price of lakefront residences to highlight that Lakeside area apartment is already selling at $1400psf, I am not saying that the whole Lakeside area is selling at an average price of $1400.
My number 2 post:
This makes it even more interesting:
Why use one transaction of a D22 MM at 1400psf to gauge the average price 1597psf of D'Leedon, then discount the transacted price of 2000+psf of D'Leedon MM?
Anyway, I reckon MM price is only useful when compare within it's own category
I am using URA transaction price of lakefront residences to highlight that Lakeside area apartment is already selling at $1400psf, I am not saying that the whole Lakeside area is selling at an average price of $1400.
I saw the price, ard 1300+++ for 721 sqft unit. That's pretty scary Psf price. Issit 2 bedroom unit? JDL story is powerful man.
Just curious, i havnt gone to lakeside area for many years already. Have the JDL district development start already? Hope bros invest in JDL story huat huat.
Maybe yield doesn't matter to you, but it matters to an rational investor. Some of you still haven't realised that in a mature market, we will not see the type of capital gains that we have realised in the past. Many of the OCR investments appreciated close to 200% in a few years. I'm 100% certain this will NOT happen in the future again. In a mature market, yields and cash flows becomes increasingly important. Many of you don't analyse but one interesting finding in the Q2 stats is OCR rental increase by 1.5% while CCR only 0.9%. OCR which traditionally gives the best yields is still pulling away from CCR. So while many are paying increasingly higher capital values for the CCR condos, the tenants do not see the value.
In short, at some time, some of us have to realise SG property market is becoming increasingly mature and rental yields will start to play an increasingly important role. Over time, many of us would like to retire and have an asset that gives us a stable cash flows (i.e. rentals or dividends) over a period of time, not the buy-and-sell strategy anymore.
And I'm speaking from a perspective of a rational investor and not a "i don't care because long time ago I buy my property cheap so rent cheap lor" investor. Many of us reshuffle our portfolio all the time - and many of us are not that old to have bought extremely cheap properties 10 years ago. Our strategy would have to be different.
Y do u say Singapore is a matured market? Issit in terms of Psf prices? Or because of limited upside in rental yield?
Yield is a factor of the kind of foreign talent we attract. If according to what MM say, we need more good talents to grow our economy, and we are importing 1m more over a undisclosed term, do u classify it as growth or matured?
Maybe yield doesn't matter to you, but it matters to an rational investor. Some of you still haven't realised that in a mature market, we will not see the type of capital gains that we have realised in the past. Many of the OCR investments appreciated close to 200% in a few years. I'm 100% certain this will NOT happen in the future again. In a mature market, yields and cash flows becomes increasingly important. Many of you don't analyse but one interesting finding in the Q2 stats is OCR rental increase by 1.5% while CCR only 0.9%. OCR which traditionally gives the best yields is still pulling away from CCR. So while many are paying increasingly higher capital values for the CCR condos, the tenants do not see the value.
In short, at some time, some of us have to realise SG property market is becoming increasingly mature and rental yields will start to play an increasingly important role. Over time, many of us would like to retire and have an asset that gives us a stable cash flows (i.e. rentals or dividends) over a period of time, not the buy-and-sell strategy anymore.
And I'm speaking from a perspective of a rational investor and not a "i don't care because long time ago I buy my property cheap so rent cheap lor" investor. Many of us reshuffle our portfolio all the time - and many of us are not that old to have bought extremely cheap properties 10 years ago. Our strategy would have to be different.
I fully understand where you're coming from. And actually different investor has different risk profile. In fact I can tell you I'm a very risk adverse investor which explains why I mostly buy D9/10 ppty. Recently, I dabble in a D15 ppty, cashing out 25% of my gold holdings and 50% of my shareholdings. This is the 1st time I bought anything outside of D9/10.
But because we buy 'safe' evergreen ppty, we know there's always demand for it. And that means stable and steady cash flow regardless of the economic environment. It's akin to buying Kepcorp or SPH. So I rather lower but stable yield. So it's not that yield doesn't matter. But rather, I dun care the buyer's yield coz I have taken care of my own yield which is an extremely safe yield. To make me give up on that, I must be well compensated coz it's not easy to find a replacement asset.
Y do u say Singapore is a matured market? Issit in terms of Psf prices? Or because of limited upside in rental yield?
Yield is a factor of the kind of foreign talent we attract. If according to what MM say, we need more good talents to grow our economy, and we are importing 1m more over a undisclosed term, do u classify it as growth or matured?
Actually Sg still have a long, long way to go. As such, the ppty mkt is far from mature....in fact, as long as we r relevant in the next 100 yrs to the world, we are still very immature IMO.
For Singapore to become a mature & self sustainable service based economy, it requires a population of at least 15m! yes many still don't know!
Short term 6.5m, long term 15m!
Otherwise why built so many new MRT stations till 2020, several beside cementaries & empty plot of land? They think Govt build for ghosts to board the MRT is it? :p
Y do u say Singapore is a matured market? Issit in terms of Psf prices? Or because of limited upside in rental yield?
Yield is a factor of the kind of foreign talent we attract. If according to what MM say, we need more good talents to grow our economy, and we are importing 1m more over a undisclosed term, do u classify it as growth or matured?
Eldenfirefly
23-07-11, 19:26
Everything still boil down to affordability though. Let's not forget, may be easy for some of us to suka suka buy a 1 million dollar place. But is that something which a new couple can realistically able to do?
Even a new foreign talent coming here. See the house prices here also faint.
Its possible to go higher, if we cater only to the rich. So Singapore become a playground for the rich lor. Like Dhubai. But when that happen, at least 70% of the population will feel marginalised. Don't even need 70%, if just 51% of the population feel that they have no hope of ever upgrading, or that their kids have no chance of owning a decent home... then Government will have a big problem liao.
Give you guys a scenario. Say government focus on keeping HDB prices down. Allow private to go crazy. They also get smart. Focus on launching BTO units only far far away from central region. If we end up having HDB at the island's edge cost $600,000 while a Condo even at say Paya Lebar cost 2 million, or 2.5 million! Then how? Will the people accept?
Maybe by that time Mc value meal is $10 and a plate of chicken rice is $5. Nissin cup noodle $3.
:scared-3:
My number 2 post:
This makes it even more interesting:
Why use one transaction of a D22 MM at 1400psf to gauge the average price 1597psf of D'Leedon, then discount the transacted price of 2000+psf of D'Leedon MM?
Anyway, I reckon MM price is only useful when compare within it's own category
ya lor. some statistics he quote outliers, some quote average. Like that very confusing.
We should not quote outliers lah. Maybe that unit has gold taps installed in the bathroom right? Average transaction price should be more reflective.
My number 2 post:
This makes it even more interesting:
Why use one transaction of a D22 MM at 1400psf to gauge the average price 1597psf of D'Leedon, then discount the transacted price of 2000+psf of D'Leedon MM?
Anyway, I reckon MM price is only useful when compare within it's own category
this might be your number 2 post with "isaacycc", but is this your 2nd post in this forum?
I am quoting Lakefront $1400 transaction price as an example to highlight it is not impossible for D'Leedon to rise further.
Appreciate if you could spend sometime reading first before posting.
Why not? Private properties should be free market driven by pure supply & demand. People expect govt to provide cheap condos for them to enjoy life? Next they will ask for cheap cars, million $ salary a year from govt, free medical for life, free education, feed them all their life? :doh:
Everything still boil down to affordability though. Let's not forget, may be easy for some of us to suka suka buy a 1 million dollar place. But is that something which a new couple can realistically able to do?
Even a new foreign talent coming here. See the house prices here also faint.
Its possible to go higher, if we cater only to the rich. So Singapore become a playground for the rich lor. Like Dhubai. But when that happen, at least 70% of the population will feel marginalised. Don't even need 70%, if just 51% of the population feel that they have no hope of ever upgrading, or that their kids have no chance of owning a decent home... then Government will have a big problem liao.
Give you guys a scenario. Say government focus on keeping HDB prices down. Allow private to go crazy. They also get smart. Focus on launching BTO units only far far away from central region. If we end up having HDB at the island's edge cost $600,000 while a Condo even at say Paya Lebar cost 2 million, or 2.5 million! Then how? Will the people accept?
Singapore is slightly better than Hong Kong as we have HDB flats. Garment cannot stop prices from going up but can only moderate the rate of increase. It is still an open market. They can change policy otherwise it has great impact on foreign investment and foreign talent influx.
Everything still boil down to affordability though. Let's not forget, may be easy for some of us to suka suka buy a 1 million dollar place. But is that something which a new couple can realistically able to do?
Bro, u hit the nail on the head! Affordability!!! Anymore upside from will needs rental support. Cos 1 maybe be able to buy million dollar house , but the opportunity cost of staying in $2m house is damn high.
This may be based on one's capacity: Buy a reasonable price house to stay and meet basic needs while spend the spare money to invest in other properties. Otherwise, like what you say opportunity cost is quite high to spend all the money in one house which you stay in.
Bro, u hit the nail on the head! Affordability!!! Anymore upside from will needs rental support. Cos 1 maybe be able to buy million dollar house , but the opportunity cost of staying in $2m house is damn high.
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