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http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporelocalnews/view/1144363/1/.html
S'pore property prices may continue climbing: survey
By Millet Enriquez | Posted: 01 August 2011 1950 hrs
SINGAPORE: Singapore property prices may continue climbing this year, contrary to a widely expected downturn, according to results of a survey by online portal PropertyGuru.com.sg.
Most respondents said property in Singapore will remain expensive, and they are setting their sights on alternatives like commercial property and real estate investments overseas, the survey showed.
Rising property prices are pushing would-be home buyers to hold off their plans as they do not believe that the much-anticipated downturn will materialise this year.
Steve Melhuish, CEO and co-founder of PropertyGuru.com.sg, said the survey itself would not have an impact on the market. However, it is like a temperature check.
He said: "(What it says is that) they expect the transactions and prices to carry on going up and so the expectation is that they are going to have to pay a higher price in the future. And as a result of that, they want the government to do more."
Analysts said prices for government-subsidised housing, or HDB flats, could jump 12 per cent this year, while private homes might climb as much as 10 per cent.
Adam Tan, corporate communications manager, PropNex, said: "I think we can see from the survey that there are people who are unhappy and they would like the prices to come down. And that is reflective of the market, prices are indeed increasing and don't look to drop any further."
This year, HDB resale prices have risen around 3 per cent, while private home prices were up about 2 per cent.
Buyers are now setting their sights on commercial properties - where the rental returns are more attractive - and overseas properties, with Malaysia, India and Australia the top choices.
Tom O'Reilly, director of Singapore Tenancy Management, said: "Malaysia as a country has extremely strong fundamentals and the property market in Malaysia tends to be a lot less volatile than Singapore.
"For the same amount of money, people can often afford to invest in multiple properties in Malaysia, which help them diversify risk but also still generate a positive return."
However, a downward correction for Singapore property prices may still lie ahead.
Analysts such as Bank of America Merrill Lynch are underweighting residential properties on potential oversupply between now and 2015.
It is favouring commercial property stocks like UOL and OUE, and real estate investment trusts like CapitaMall Trust, Starhill and ARA.
SIAS Research also sees positive prospects for commercial REITs on expected rental and values growth in the next few years.
Its top pick is K-REIT for its prime Grade A commercial properties such as Marina Bay Financial Centre and One Raffles Quay.
While Grade A office rentals have increased, analysts say it is still 36 per cent off its peak levels in 2008.
- CNA/al
And volume of transactions will continue falling???
Sellers are firm on asking prices while buyers are hesitating to commit.
It all depends on the economy in the coming months --- whether there will be further slowdown or onset of a new financial crisis. For the latter, it will start with a drop in volume, followed by transacted prices.
thomastansb
02-08-11, 16:08
No one will know one. Every month, we have few hundred analysts - some saying up, some saying down. Surely, there will be some correct (either up or down isn't it?). In Q12008, many analysts say prices will hold. US will not affect Singapore much because got China. Really?
In Q12009, many analysts say property will continue to drop 20%.
I rest my case. No one will know. Anyway, isn't it a known fact prices only drop in the event of a major shock like Asian Financial Crisis, US financial meltdown etc ?????? So why are analyst still talking as if there are many factors? I think I can be senior analyst already :)
Because somebody's loss is another someone else's gain.
US's loss is Asia's gain? Amist the economic turmoil, the rich have grown richer (the poor have become poorer) and some companies have made record profits. The need for products and services won't dissappear suddenly. People will still consume.
For the next 50 years, PM Lee said the government would continue to take a long-term, rational perspective, remain an international hub, and be open to global investments and talent. (http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporelocalnews/view/1144385/1/.html)
The SG population isn't going to decrease. It's going to increase. The transportation companies are investing money in ramping up their capacity.
Demand will increase.
Supply is increasing.
Will supply outpace the demand and cause prices to drop? Place your bets!
In the first place, Asia property prices are not suppose to drop in Year 2009 since problems are in the West but it did drop because of panic running amok globally.
From Year 2009 to 2011, people figured out that Asia is the place that is more stable..... so funds are parking here.
People who are expecting another crash in SG property or severe correction are assuming Singapore market and other Asian markets are very very developed like the West with bubbles, which we aren't.
This is just the beginning of the rise of Asia or East or the bubbles at infant stage.
From Year 2009-2011, people realised that Asia is safer.....
Assuming if US and Europe tanks..... where would the funds go?
Which currency can survive as the next safe haven?
The answer is pretty clear.
Credit given to government for re-branding Singapore using 2 x IR and Formula One.
joycewangwen
02-08-11, 17:28
Assuming if US and Europe tanks..... where would the funds go?
Which currency can survive as the next safe haven?
I think those western country politicians should be smart enough to avoid that to happen.
Printing money is the 1st step...:spliff:
In the first place, Asia property prices are not suppose to drop in Year 2009 since problems are in the West but it did drop because of panic running amok globally.
From Year 2009 to 2011, people figured out that Asia is the place that is more stable..... so funds are parking here.
People who are expecting another crash in SG property or severe correction are assuming Singapore market and other Asian markets are very very developed like the West with bubbles, which we aren't.
This is just the beginning of the rise of Asia or East or the bubbles at infant stage.
From Year 2009-2011, people realised that Asia is safer.....
Assuming if US and Europe tanks..... where would the funds go?
Which currency can survive as the next safe haven?
The answer is pretty clear.
Credit given to government for re-branding Singapore using 2 x IR and Formula One.
If US and EU tanks then what you think will happen? What US will do with all its military might?
War is the way US and EU had economic prosperity ..why you think it will be different this time? :tongue3:
Will supply outpace the demand and cause prices to drop? Place your bets!I suspect demand will outpace supply. Our lovely govt kept saying our country need foreign talents blar blar blar so they will merely open that tap whenever the need arises coz its the easiest way to solve any dire manpower shortages! :D What are you betting on?
I just placed my 20% bet on demand outpacing supply. Good luck to me :D
Guys , if US and EU tank, SG sure suffer big time. As a trading hub, there is no way it can survive without trading. I think there is no illusion on this.
The issue is, will these entities collapse overnite ? My reading is a no. Dun forget Japan had been in deflation for 20 yrs. A very likely scenario will be for US to enter into that.
Extraordinary times call for extraordinary thinking.
bargain hunter
02-08-11, 20:36
let's say US goes into the 20 year deflation. your take is interest rates will stay low. will that cause the ppty boom in sg to continue? or as u said below, US suffer, we also suffer. :confused:
Guys , if US and EU tank, SG sure suffer big time. As a trading hub, there is no way it can survive without trading. I think there is no illusion on this.
The issue is, will these entities collapse overnite ? My reading is a no. Dun forget Japan had been in deflation for 20 yrs. A very likely scenario will be for US to enter into that.
Extraordinary times call for extraordinary thinking.
when even more people start to say price can climb even high, beware, crash is coming even closer...:D :D
when even more people start to say price can climb even high, beware, crash is coming even closer...:D :DWhat is crash to you? >20% price drop?
What is crash to you? >20% price drop?
30% will be about right:p
when even more people start to say price can climb even high, beware, crash is coming even closer...:D :D
Everyone invested in properties is now in a slow boiling pot with the temperature getting higher without knowing it. Before long all will be COOKED!:D :D :D
I just placed my 20% bet on demand outpacing supply. Good luck to me :D
Which development did you place your bet on?
thomastansb
02-08-11, 20:48
Say one bought early 2009 and getting a very decent rental at 10%. Why would this person be in a slow boiling pot and be cooked? Your analogy is flawed.
And many bought before 2007 boom and is getting like 10-15% yield easily. I think these group are watching their pot cooking and producing delicious soup. Getting more and more delicious.
Everyone invested in properties is now in a slow boiling pot with the temperature getting higher without knowing it. Before long all will be COOKED!:D :D :D
30% will be about right:pLovely... I also waiting but when was the last time 30% price drop occurred? 1997?
All that talk about soup is making me hungry!
Which development did you place your bet on?
Shoebox @ Braddell :o
Say one bought early 2009 and getting a very decent rental at 10%. Why would this person be in a slow boiling pot and be cooked? Your analogy is flawed.
And many bought before 2007 boom and is getting like 10-15% yield easily. I think these group are watching their pot cooking and producing delicious soup. Getting more and more delicious.
can you give me an example of a property that was bought in 2009 has a rental yield of 10%? Does it mean that if the property cost 1m, the rental income will be 100k/year?
why would garment open FT tap to the extend of demand outstrip supply?
at best demand close to supply, that is good enough liao, to keep price stable as much as possible
let's say US goes into the 20 year deflation. your take is interest rates will stay low. will that cause the ppty boom in sg to continue? or as u said below, US suffer, we also suffer. :confused:
My take is, SG will suffer. Unemployment rate will have to go up. Job security will not be a given. Wage increase will not be a given. Pty price will be stagnant. And because of loss of jobs there will have selling pressure. All those 1st timers buying to invest hoping to get easy rental income will face the reality of low or no rental. Thanks to strict lending criteria and sustained low rates, many may not be desperate, but there is no more easy money on pty.
Say one bought early 2009 and getting a very decent rental at 10%. Why would this person be in a slow boiling pot and be cooked? Your analogy is flawed.
And many bought before 2007 boom and is getting like 10-15% yield easily. I think these group are watching their pot cooking and producing delicious soup. Getting more and more delicious.
There are many ways to look at rental yield. If you want to make yourself feel good, just use your original purchased price even if it was bought 10, 15 or 20 years go.
However I would prefer to calculate rental yield based on existing valuation, rather than historic prices because the money we collect today is a lot smaller than 10 years ago.
My take is, SG will suffer. Unemployment rate will have to go up. Job security will not be a given. Wage increase will not be a given. Pty price will be stagnant. And because of loss of jobs there will have selling pressure. All those 1st timers buying to invest hoping to get easy rental income will face the reality of low or no rental. Thanks to strict lending criteria and sustained low rates, many may not be desperate, but there is no more easy money on pty.
There are many levers that the government can use to prevent property market crash: LTV, HDB ruling, Stamp duty... I'm of the view that at current interest rates, the property prices will rise gradually about 3-5% per annum. However for those in booming areas, there will still be high demand and price growth. Looking at how our infrastructure is struggling to cope with traffic, the higher transportation costs, and the increasing cost of time, people will pay a premium to be near their work places.
There are many levers that the government can use to prevent property market crash: LTV, HDB ruling, Stamp duty... I'm of the view that at current interest rates, the property prices will rise gradually about 3-5% per annum. However for those in booming areas, there will still be high demand and price growth. Looking at how our infrastructure is struggling to cope with traffic, the higher transportation costs, and the increasing cost of time, people will pay a premium to be near their work places.
Right now everything is just too good to be true.. low unemployment..low interest rate..high rental demand... what else you can ask for....?
Its economy..what if it falter at 2012 or 2013?...How many people would be willing to buy if they are not sure about their jobs..?
When times are good, economy doing well, interest rates low, we complain prices too high.... When crash and economy doing badly then we worry about our jobs and dare not to buy.... So all these fence sitters will never commit
thomastansb
02-08-11, 23:55
Take the one who bought Clift around 500k. 10% yield give and take.
can you give me an example of a property that was bought in 2009 has a rental yield of 10%? Does it mean that if the property cost 1m, the rental income will be 100k/year?
thomastansb
02-08-11, 23:57
Of course use the purchase price. That is the bank installment I have to pay. Anyway, he was saying about people in a slow boiling pot which I don't agree at all. Which is why I use the example of someone buying in early 2009 who is enjoying like 10% rental yield now. How would that person be dying slowly????
There are many ways to look at rental yield. If you want to make yourself feel good, just use your original purchased price even if it was bought 10, 15 or 20 years go.
However I would prefer to calculate rental yield based on existing valuation, rather than historic prices because the money we collect today is a lot smaller than 10 years ago.
Guys , if US and EU tank, SG sure suffer big time. As a trading hub, there is no way it can survive without trading. I think there is no illusion on this.
The issue is, will these entities collapse overnite ? My reading is a no. Dun forget Japan had been in deflation for 20 yrs. A very likely scenario will be for US to enter into that.
Extraordinary times call for extraordinary thinking.
If US and Europe tanks, yes we will be affected, but we are the next best thing liao.
HSBC is selling their branches in US, cutting people globally especially in west and intend to hire more in Asia.
Go figure the demand supply.
This is Asia's era now.
Prices rate of increase now will be inflation driven.
Those waiting for crash? Wait long long. CM5 already eliminate possibility of a crash in next 4-5years.
Correction maybe. Severe correction unlikely.
Year 2009 is the beginning of the crisis era, it started with a bang but we will get used to the noise of crises in the years to come so much so we just get on with life and if we have to buy, we just buy. Same goes for the foreigners in Singapore.
When times are good, economy doing well, interest rates low, we complain prices too high.... When crash and economy doing badly then we worry about our jobs and dare not to buy.... So all these fence sitters will never commit
Many of these fence sitters dont need to commit
Most of these are good salaried FT who can make money from SG progress, without buying property..:tongue3:
Not everyone need to win TOTO and 4D to become rich.. :D
Go figure the demand supply.
This is Asia's era now.
Hilarious...:D
How's this Asia's era?:beats-me-man:
Cause of china? who survive by doing manufacturing job for US/EU?
India or phil? who survive by doing call center job for US/EU?
All these are servant country, doing job for their western Master, US and EU...
These countries dont have leg to stand on if US and EU dont pick up..:scared-3:
..if west is doing well then these servant will be paid well..
It might change after 40-50 years..but right not Asia is nothing...:doh:
Regulators
03-08-11, 01:00
China is the biggest creditor of US and is it the west that own most of the US govt bonds or asia? US is only good for stabilising the world and act as a big brother, but china can do quite well without US if one day things come to that stage. Just ask yourself most of what you use in your daily lives, how many of those things are made in USA? I agree when it comes to computers, it is very hard to do without microsoft and google/yahoo, but apart from that, asia is quite self sufficient.
Hilarious...:D
How's this Asia's era?:beats-me-man:
Cause of china? who survive by doing manufacturing job for US/EU?
India or phil? who survive by doing call center job for US/EU?
All these are servant country, doing job for their western Master, US and EU...
These countries dont have leg to stand on if US and EU dont pick up..:scared-3:
..if west is doing well then these servant will be paid well..
It might change after 40-50 years..but right not Asia is nothing...:doh:
China is the biggest creditor of US and is it the west that own most of the US govt bonds or asia? US is only good for stabilising the world and act as a big brother, but china can do quite well without US if one day things come to that stage. Just ask yourself most of what you use in your daily lives, how many of those things are made in USA? I agree when it comes to computers, it is very hard to do without microsoft and google/yahoo, but apart from that, asia is quite self sufficient.
comeon bro, u are too kind! USA is in a pile of shit and they still wanna think they are the big bro of the world. Apple got more $$ than USA lor. Hell, Bill Gates probably got more $$$ than USA.
why would garment open FT tap to the extend of demand outstrip supply?
at best demand close to supply, that is good enough liao, to keep price stable as much as possibleGarment will not open FT tap to the extend of demand outstrip supply for the sake of outstripping. The need for FT is pretty fixed year on year so that tap will be left open at somewhat a fixed rate. This tap is more of a buffer than anything.
Its the local buyers who can potentially cause the govt to miscalculate the supply numbers. The local buyers are always so unpredictable, as seen in today's market. Even when HDB had WIS 6 to 8 years back, there were simply too many vacant HDB flats in the market. The CMs also had limited effects. Just have to change mindset from flippers to longer term investment and local buyers will return to the showflats. :spliff:
There are many ways to look at rental yield. If you want to make yourself feel good, just use your original purchased price even if it was bought 10, 15 or 20 years go.
However I would prefer to calculate rental yield based on existing valuation, rather than historic prices because the money we collect today is a lot smaller than 10 years ago.
There should come to a point where perhaps it's better to realize that capital gain:D
If the correction would mean LTV going back to 80%, I'm sure there are lots of people waiting for that.
Allthepies
03-08-11, 08:52
there r already many people sitting on the sideline with piles of $$$ waiting for a "crash" to happen so that they can enter... as price keep gg up this group of people r getting more and more anxious everyday :D so do u think a 30% drop is possible with hungry people waiting at the sideline....
there r already many people sitting on the sideline with piles of $$$ waiting for a "crash" to happen so that they can enter... as price keep gg up this group of people r getting more and more anxious everyday :D so do u think a 30% drop is possible with hungry people waiting at the sideline....
The ball game is very different from that of the past.
1) The past and current players are different, i.e. local versus global.
2) The past and current economy of Singapore and other countries, are also different.
3) The packaging and branding of island state has went beyond only selling our women, i.e. SIA girls to 2 x IR and Formula One.
4) The politics and diplomatic situation between great nations and superpowers acknowledging Singapore's position as a buffer state in negotiations and perspectives. We get away with comments on how countries should do or act and our opinions do weigh their weight.
5) Considering relativity, we are a notch up over our neighbours and notches up in city ranking on many aspects. Relative to West, we are better. Relative to neighbours, we are better.
6) This is the beginning and we have a good 20 years ahead at least until Singaporeans and foreigners become so complacent, bureaucratic, condoscending and thus leading to our demise.
Reiterate, ball game is very different so don't expect historic patterns to repeat so fast like the local crises that happened in the last 10-15 years.
Of course use the purchase price. That is the bank installment I have to pay.
Using original purchase price to calculate rental yield can be very misleading and you might end up short changing yourself because things like property tax is calculated based on current marketing valuation and the potential buyer of your property will use current market valuation to access your rental returns.
You should use your mortgage payment to calculate your cashflow, not your rental yield.
I just placed my 20% bet on demand outpacing supply. Good luck to me :D
Which property? Share some information of your purchase lei.
The ball game is very different from that of the past.
1) The past and current players are different, i.e. local versus global.
2) The past and current economy of Singapore and other countries, are also different.
3) The packaging and branding of island state has went beyond only selling our women, i.e. SIA girls to 2 x IR and Formula One.
4) The politics and diplomatic situation between great nations and superpowers acknowledging Singapore's position as a buffer state in negotiations and perspectives. We get away with comments on how countries should do or act and our opinions do weigh their weight.
5) Considering relativity, we are a notch up over our neighbours and notches up in city ranking on many aspects. Relative to West, we are better. Relative to neighbours, we are better.
6) This is the beginning and we have a good 20 years ahead at least until Singaporeans and foreigners become so complacent, bureaucratic, condoscending and thus leading to our demise.
Reiterate, ball game is very different so don't expect historic patterns to repeat so fast like the local crises that happened in the last 10-15 years.
The rule of the game will never change, what goes up will come down, the higher your climb the harder you fall. Human beings are driven by greed and fear and there is no way you can prevent market correction.
Which property? Share some information of your purchase lei.
Shoebox @ Braddell. 12xx PSF, freehold.
The rule of the game will never change, what goes up will come down, the higher your climb the harder you fall. Human beings are driven by greed and fear and there is no way you can prevent market correction.
Even if a market correction occurs, different properties will experience correction in varying degrees or defy the market trend. Or if there's no market correction, you may have missed the boat forever. Have to do research before placing your bet.
The game now is location, location, location...... different from one to two years ago, in which any property you whack also will gain in psf.
The ball game is very different from that of the past.
1) The past and current players are different, i.e. local versus global.
2) The past and current economy of Singapore and other countries, are also different.
3) The packaging and branding of island state has went beyond only selling our women, i.e. SIA girls to 2 x IR and Formula One.
4) The politics and diplomatic situation between great nations and superpowers acknowledging Singapore's position as a buffer state in negotiations and perspectives. We get away with comments on how countries should do or act and our opinions do weigh their weight.
5) Considering relativity, we are a notch up over our neighbours and notches up in city ranking on many aspects. Relative to West, we are better. Relative to neighbours, we are better.
6) This is the beginning and we have a good 20 years ahead at least until Singaporeans and foreigners become so complacent, bureaucratic, condoscending and thus leading to our demise.
Reiterate, ball game is very different so don't expect historic patterns to repeat so fast like the local crises that happened in the last 10-15 years.
"The four most dangerous words in investing are: 'this time it's different.'"
Sir John Templeton..
....figure it out :doh:
Even if a market correction occurs, different properties will experience correction in varying degrees or defy the market trend. Or if there's no market correction, you may have missed the boat forever. Have to do research before placing your bet.
Every property investors believe they are smarter than others and their asset will hold up better than the rest. that is until they try to find a buyer during down turn.
It is a good thing that we have investors who tries to act like they could predict the future, while totally ignoring the past. Or else, how can the market crash.
Using original purchase price to calculate rental yield can be very misleading and you might end up short changing yourself because things like property tax is calculated based on current marketing valuation and the potential buyer of your property will use current market valuation to access your rental returns.
You should use your mortgage payment to calculate your cashflow, not your rental yield.
Isn't property tax calculated based on the rent, not the market valuation?
Isn't property tax calculated based on the rent, not the market valuation?
your rent income goes into your income tax. Even for own stay property, you still need to pay property tax.
Every property investors believe they are smarter than others and their asset will hold up better than the rest. that is until they try to find a buyer during down turn.
It is a good thing that we have investors who tries to act like they could predict the future, while totally ignoring the past. Or else, how can the market crash.
You are right that many people think they are smarter than they are until they lose money. Smart investors won't think that their asset will hold up better; they also weigh the downside and whether they can afford to lose that amount of money. The panic-sellers are those who only think of the upside but did not factor in the possibility of the downside.
your rent income goes into your income tax. Even for own stay property, you still need to pay property tax.
What I meant is that property tax is determined by IRAS based on "market rent" or income can be generated from the property, not "market valuation" of it
The game now is location, location, location...... different from one to two years ago, in which any property you whack also will gain in psf.
Agree!
That time in stock market, buy any stock confirmed can make money.
Now not so easy :tsk-tsk: Stock market down today. Who's buying? :D
Agree!
That time in stock market, buy any stock confirmed can make money.
Now not so easy :tsk-tsk: Stock market down today. Who's buying? :D
People are scared of double dip coming :scared-3: Who will buy right now?
..who wants to be a hero?
Wait a while and get a bargain...be it property or stock..if still have any cash left :luke-and-darth:
Many people who bought at high will be stuck with negative equity..not a good feeling :tsk-tsk:
What I meant is that property tax is determined by IRAS based on "market rent" or income can be generated from the property, not "market valuation" of it
How does IRAS or landlord determine potential rental returns? Do they calculate based on your original purchase price, mortgage payment, or do they use x% of current property valuation?
How does IRAS or landlord determine potential rental returns? Do they calculate based on your original purchase price, mortgage payment, or do they use x% of current property valuation?
Depending on how much bonuses our ministers want? hehehe. joking. :D
Many of these fence sitters dont need to commit
Most of these are good salaried FT who can make money from SG progress, without buying property..:tongue3:
Not everyone need to win TOTO and 4D to become rich.. :D
I am not referring to you. You are prob referring to yourself as the good salaried FT... and its fine if you dont buy at all....
I am referring to those people who have the intention to buy but when prices drop they panick and either wait for prices to drop further or dare not commit and when prices go up they lament that its too high....
comeon bro, u are too kind! USA is in a pile of shit and they still wanna think they are the big bro of the world. Apple got more $$ than USA lor. Hell, Bill Gates probably got more $$$ than USA.
WTF.. were you born in china? Unless you born and bred communist you should know better..:doh:
Govt is for meant for laws,policies and creating environment for business and economy to grow..
Govt is not economy..:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
China economy looks strong cause the Govt has the money.. which is typical of a communist country.. real economy is driven by people and businesses not govt...:cheers6:
"The four most dangerous words in investing are: 'this time it's different.'"
Sir John Templeton..
....figure it out :doh:
I agree with you totall that if we refuse to see the truth we will fall hard...
I really do not subscibe to the this time is different theory...
I believe what Jadey said when she mentioned that all humans are greedy... and in a market economy we go thru boom and bust cycle...
From your post you sounded like you wanted to buy in the past but kind of missed the boat a little bit so now you have swung to the camp of not needing to buy and dont want to buy...
If this is true, then by recognising that you have missed the boat is a good starting point so that in future when prices drop, you will have the opportunity to buy... but by internalising the fact that you now dont want to buy, you might internalised it so much that why prices drop you will still convince yourself that you do not want to buy and hence history repeats itself....
"The four most dangerous words in investing are: 'this time it's different.'"
Sir John Templeton..
....figure it out :doh:
the four most important words in property investment are indian filipiino chinese and bangladesh...:scared-1: .....as long as they keep flocking to OUR singapore...dont worry be happy buy property make money...:D
...figure it out...:D
WTF.. were you born in china? Unless you born and bred communist you should know better..:doh:
Govt is for meant for laws,policies and creating environment for business and economy to grow..
Govt is not economy..:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
China economy looks strong cause the Govt has the money.. which is typical of a communist country.. real economy is driven by people and businesses not govt...:cheers6:
who runs the federal reserves or US central bank?
WTF.. were you born in china? Unless you born and bred communist you should know better..:doh:
Govt is for meant for laws,policies and creating environment for business and economy to grow..
Govt is not economy..:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
China economy looks strong cause the Govt has the money.. which is typical of a communist country.. real economy is driven by people and businesses not govt...:cheers6:
Bro relax..... people just giving opinions only... dont use vulgarities...
a country can be rich in many ways....
singapore is not communist but we have a huge foreign reserves estimated by some at more than USD400 billion...
its how the government and its citizens managed their wealth...
if you keep swiping your credit card and use tommorrow's income to spend now, then you will have a problem.. US goverment and its citizens have been spending this way since 30 years ago that is why they are in this deep hole that will take years to unwind...
PS: In the unlikely case that you happen to be a US citizen, you can solve your problems by converting to SIN citizen... then you become part of the high growth, thrifty, hardworking Asian population and can ride the growht for the next 10 years at least :spliff:
The invention of currency as means to trade means it's government business already......
No currency means no government and people trade using gold, silver or barter trade.
I don't think there are any regimes or places that doesn't use currency. Maybe those far-flung mountains but I think those folks also appreciate what currencies can buy them in their town markets.
Economies and governments are intertwined.
I agree with you totall that if we refuse to see the truth we will fall hard...
I really do not subscibe to the this time is different theory...
I believe what Jadey said when she mentioned that all humans are greedy... and in a market economy we go thru boom and bust cycle...
From your post you sounded like you wanted to buy in the past but kind of missed the boat a little bit so now you have swung to the camp of not needing to buy and dont want to buy...
If this is true, then by recognising that you have missed the boat is a good starting point so that in future when prices drop, you will have the opportunity to buy... but by internalising the fact that you now dont want to buy, you might internalised it so much that why prices drop you will still convince yourself that you do not want to buy and hence history repeats itself....
I will certainly buy..if price is right...If I see the risk reward is there, I will jump in..:D
Right now its doesnt justify to me..
My reasoning is simple.. world economy never picked up..its very slow.. so how come SG keep growing..?
Its stupid to think SG can bring more people and have job growth...
SG GDP in next few quarters will tell the story and Property prices will fall once people realize SG is not immune to Global economy...
Why would I buy now if I am convinced that it will fall in future date..
Never say never.. I would surely buy if pricing is right :ashamed1:
I will certainly buy..if price is right...If I see the risk reward is there, I will jump in..:D
Right now its doesnt justify to me..
My reasoning is simple.. world economy never picked up..its very slow.. so how come SG keep growing..?
Its stupid to think SG can bring more people and have job growth...
SG GDP in next few quarters will tell the story and Property prices will fall once people realize SG is not immune to Global economy...
Why would I buy now if I am convinced that it will fall in future date..
Never say never.. I would surely buy if pricing is right :ashamed1:
Good point and I respect you for taking a stand and backing it up with your obeservation.... I do agree prices are not low and actually have appreciated by quite a bit...
What I am not so sure of is whether prices will correct?
US, Europe and Japan are in deep shit...
The problem is that money is flowing to Asia ex JP in a big way..
Look at Goldman going to increase SIN workforce by another few thousands and HSBC another they want to employ at least another 2k in China and SIN in the next two years...
I am trying to be objective, I think the SIN story is quite unique, a ver small place, unqiue position as the gateway to Asia, bridging the cultural gap between India and China, excellent flight connectivity, booming tourism, increasingly high end tourism...
Private wealth from not just Asia but from Europe and US parking their money here...
If it all goes well, it might just be a melting pot for the rich, famous, talented brilliant minds in all fields...
Ask yourself, why are you here? then probably you will get the answer...
I am not saying prices will not go down and neither am i suggesting that you buy now... just brainstorming all sides...
How does IRAS or landlord determine potential rental returns? Do they calculate based on your original purchase price, mortgage payment, or do they use x% of current property valuation?
Don't think they care how much you paid for the property or what's the current open market valuation, not to mention the yield, return, mortgage... the whole nine yards
The property tax is determined by the "current market rent"
If a property can rent out at 4000 a month, it will be the base of its property tax calculation. whether you paid 10m or 1cent for it, IRAS won't care and it's not in the formula
Good point and I respect you for taking a stand and backing it up with your obeservation.... I do agree prices are not low and actually have appreciated by quite a bit...
What I am not so sure of is whether prices will correct?
US, Europe and Japan are in deep shit...
The problem is that money is flowing to Asia ex JP in a big way..
Look at Goldman going to increase SIN workforce by another few thousands and HSBC another they want to employ at least another 2k in China and SIN in the next two years...
I am trying to be objective, I think the SIN story is quite unique, a ver small place, unqiue position as the gateway to Asia, bridging the cultural gap between India and China, excellent flight connectivity, booming tourism, increasingly high end tourism...
Private wealth from not just Asia but from Europe and US parking their money here...
If it all goes well, it might just be a melting pot for the rich, famous, talented brilliant minds in all fields...
Ask yourself, why are you here? then probably you will get the answer...
I am not saying prices will not go down and neither am i suggesting that you buy now... just brainstorming all sides...
Agree.
Where is the brightest small spot in Europe? Switzerland?
Where is the brightest small spot in Asia? Singapore? (and it just started only)
Good point and I respect you for taking a stand and backing it up with your obeservation.... I do agree prices are not low and actually have appreciated by quite a bit...
What I am not so sure of is whether prices will correct?
US, Europe and Japan are in deep shit...
The problem is that money is flowing to Asia ex JP in a big way..
Look at Goldman going to increase SIN workforce by another few thousands and HSBC another they want to employ at least another 2k in China and SIN in the next two years...
I am trying to be objective, I think the SIN story is quite unique, a ver small place, unqiue position as the gateway to Asia, bridging the cultural gap between India and China, excellent flight connectivity, booming tourism, increasingly high end tourism...
Private wealth from not just Asia but from Europe and US parking their money here...
If it all goes well, it might just be a melting pot for the rich, famous, talented brilliant minds in all fields...
Ask yourself, why are you here? then probably you will get the answer...
I am not saying prices will not go down and neither am i suggesting that you buy now... just brainstorming all sides...Though you are not suggesting that we buy now but you are certainly implying that Singapore economy is strong enough to prevent any huge price correction in our housing sector. Well I am inclined to agree with you on that too. Maybe give it another 3 to 6 months to see how the economy is moving before deciding on our investment portfolio! :spliff:
Good point and I respect you for taking a stand and backing it up with your obeservation.... I do agree prices are not low and actually have appreciated by quite a bit...
What I am not so sure of is whether prices will correct?
US, Europe and Japan are in deep shit...
The problem is that money is flowing to Asia ex JP in a big way..
Look at Goldman going to increase SIN workforce by another few thousands and HSBC another they want to employ at least another 2k in China and SIN in the next two years...
I am trying to be objective, I think the SIN story is quite unique, a ver small place, unqiue position as the gateway to Asia, bridging the cultural gap between India and China, excellent flight connectivity, booming tourism, increasingly high end tourism...
Private wealth from not just Asia but from Europe and US parking their money here...
If it all goes well, it might just be a melting pot for the rich, famous, talented brilliant minds in all fields...
Ask yourself, why are you here? then probably you will get the answer...
I am not saying prices will not go down and neither am i suggesting that you buy now... just brainstorming all sides...
I have seen 10 people from business side let go in last 2 days.. in SIngapore
Those are the people I work with.. people I know.. am not sure how many more will be let go.. as someone working in banking, am used to it... but still its a hard fact that people on the ground are suffering..
http://news.efinancialcareers.sg/newsandviews_item/newsItemId-33994
So thinking Singapore is immune to global growth is wrong..
What happened in 2008-2009..thats not a long time ago...
Singapore was positioned at Gateway at that time too...did it saved it?
I agree Goldman and big banks might keep hiring..which I am happy with..cause they pay my bills..:D But fact is job market can turn very quickly..and it is.. mostly have freeze the hiring and many are sacking..
I absolutely agree in long term Singapore and Asia will do very well.. but not in short/medium term..
Do we really need remind of how many people were about to leave in 2009... thanks goodness that didnt materialize..and recession was shorter then expected..
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aDUTELnSlccU&refer=asia
do you really believe "this time its different"?
Though you are not suggesting that we buy now but you are certainly implying that Singapore economy is strong enough to prevent any huge price correction in our housing sector. Well I am inclined to agree with you on that too. Maybe give it another 3 to 6 months to see how the economy is moving before deciding on our investment portfolio! :spliff:
MAS already committed that spore will be able to meet the projected 5%~6% growth this year despite a few unpleasant result this quarter. Next yr will be guessing game. that will be the risk cost to take for any investment :D :D
Eldenfirefly
03-08-11, 12:26
My sense is that it seems that the more the government tries to prevent too much speculation in the market, the more prices won't drop. Its like somehow, the more difficult you make it to buy this, the more people want to buy... :scared-4:
When OCR condo last time price at 600 psf, people scream too expensive, and say it should be less. Now OCR condo all priced above 1000 psf, then everyone chiong to go and buy.
By right, the 4th round of property measures supposed to have killed all speculators already. But then this is replaced by the genuine buyers and the long term investors. So, end up price never drop at all.
KBW keep on talking about the big supply coming in, coming in, but it doesn't seem to have much effect either leh. Alll new launches, even when priced like Thomson Grand at average of 1400 psf, also taken up.
I think the more difficult you make it to buy something like property, the more people want to buy. And wierdly enough, the higher you price it, then the more people want to buy it. And people ultimately seem to have a lot of confidence in Singapore leh. Everyone seems to believe that property here can only go up, it won't come down. Guess they are very confident that growth here in Singapore can continue. :)
My sense is that it seems that the more the government tries to prevent too much speculation in the market, the more prices won't drop. Its like somehow, the more difficult you make it to buy this, the more people want to buy... :scared-4:
When OCR condo last time price at 600 psf, people scream too expensive, and say it should be less. Now OCR condo all priced above 1000 psf, then everyone chiong to go and buy.
By right, the 4th round of property measures supposed to have killed all speculators already. But then this is replaced by the genuine buyers and the long term investors. So, end up price never drop at all.
KBW keep on talking about the big supply coming in, coming in, but it doesn't seem to have much effect either leh. Alll new launches, even when priced like Thomson Grand at average of 1400 psf, also taken up.
I think the more difficult you make it to buy something like property, the more people want to buy. And wierdly enough, the higher you price it, then the more people want to buy it. And people ultimately seem to have a lot of confidence in Singapore leh. Everyone seems to believe that property here can only go up, it won't come down. Guess they are very confident that growth here in Singapore can continue. :)Its a weird world out there we are living in.... LOL! :D
Don't think they care how much you paid for the property or what's the current open market valuation, not to mention the yield, return, mortgage... the whole nine yards
The property tax is determined by the "current market rent"
If a property can rent out at 4000 a month, it will be the base of its property tax calculation. whether you paid 10m or 1cent for it, IRAS won't care and it's not in the formula
How the market or landlord determine its "fair" rental value of a property based on the current value of the property. If the value of property goes up, so will rental.
How the market or landlord determine its "fair" rental value of a property based on the current value of the property. If the value of property goes up, so will rental.
Whether the "market rent" determined by IRAS is "fair" or not is not up to us to verdict, but as property owners you can always appeal to IRAS. However, from what I have been paying, I think it is quite fair, or even on the low side sometimes.
When value of property goes up, so will rental? Tell me about it! All the time you have been arguing "rental yield does not make sense", isn't it
Guess no need to argue on this any more. I just want to point out that property tax is not based on market valuation of the property as you might believe. Whether you want to take it or not is up to you.
I have seen 10 people from business side let go in last 2 days.. in SIngapore
Those are the people I work with.. people I know.. am not sure how many more will be let go.. as someone working in banking, am used to it... but still its a hard fact that people on the ground are suffering..
http://news.efinancialcareers.sg/newsandviews_item/newsItemId-33994
So thinking Singapore is immune to global growth is wrong..
What happened in 2008-2009..thats not a long time ago...
Singapore was positioned at Gateway at that time too...did it saved it?
I agree Goldman and big banks might keep hiring..which I am happy with..cause they pay my bills..:D But fact is job market can turn very quickly..and it is.. mostly have freeze the hiring and many are sacking..
I absolutely agree in long term Singapore and Asia will do very well.. but not in short/medium term..
Do we really need remind of how many people were about to leave in 2009... thanks goodness that didnt materialize..and recession was shorter then expected..
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aDUTELnSlccU&refer=asia
do you really believe "this time its different"?
Considering the obscene money (bonuses) people are making in the financial industry.... I think it's fair that they share the brunt of ruthless retrenchment since banking is the epitome of 'the fittest survives'.
Both my friend and myself thought Australia will bounce back the first in the recession of Year 2009 and Singapore will be in deep waters given the historic patterns of our recovery.
However, it was different....... something clearly was in the cards and Singapore bounced back as fast.
The answers were pretty clear.... the rich were looking to park their funds and Singapore was marketing itself with 2 x IR, Formula One.
Regulators
03-08-11, 14:06
what about civil servants who get paid more than $1 mil a year? They don't seem to get retrenched when things go wrong
Considering the obscene money (bonuses) people are making in the financial industry.... I think it's fair that they share the brunt of ruthless retrenchment since banking is the epitome of 'the fittest survives'.
Both my friend and myself thought Australia will bounce back the first in the recession of Year 2009 and Singapore will be in deep waters given the historic patterns of our recovery.
However, it was different....... something clearly was in the cards and Singapore bounced back as fast.
The answers were pretty clear.... the rich were looking to park their funds and Singapore was marketing itself with 2 x IR, Formula One.
Though you are not suggesting that we buy now but you are certainly implying that Singapore economy is strong enough to prevent any huge price correction in our housing sector. Well I am inclined to agree with you on that too. Maybe give it another 3 to 6 months to see how the economy is moving before deciding on our investment portfolio! :spliff:
I concur that we will probably not be seeing a huge price correction (>20%), given the fact that everyone is already cautious and expecting prices to drop.... that alone will moderate prices.
While there are some of us that say, let's wait 3 to 6 month.... I'm say start looking for gems now....property is super-illiquid especially in the resale market (forget about new launches, I still don't understand why people are willing to pay the price premium, it's irrational)... When you are ready to buy, there's nothing out there.... might take you months to find something.... Besides, I'll gradly pay 10% more something I like, take that as the buffer for future price drop.
But currently, there's a huge gap between what the sellers are asking, and what buyers are offering.... have to be patient.... hence the "super-illiquidity".:(
Considering the obscene money (bonuses) people are making in the financial industry.... I think it's fair that they share the brunt of ruthless retrenchment since banking is the epitome of 'the fittest survives'.
Both my friend and myself thought Australia will bounce back the first in the recession of Year 2009 and Singapore will be in deep waters given the historic patterns of our recovery.
However, it was different....... something clearly was in the cards and Singapore bounced back as fast.
The answers were pretty clear.... the rich were looking to park their funds and Singapore was marketing itself with 2 x IR, Formula One.
You sound like people who laughed at Lehman when they crashed.. everyone thought they deserved it.. but only when they came to know the impact to the fall...and once their own jobs dissipated then they came to realize the truth...
So fact is bankers losing their jobs in not a good things..banking is first to be impacted, but it will cascade down soon to normal economy..
Heard that the banking and investment over-employed (recruited too many) for some banks, hence the lay-off, many are the dead woods type.
Still, many other banks have announced that they are going to recruit. Most likely will have to be FT as there just aren't many good bankers in Singapore.
I have seen 10 people from business side let go in last 2 days.. in SIngapore
Those are the people I work with.. people I know.. am not sure how many more will be let go.. as someone working in banking, am used to it... but still its a hard fact that people on the ground are suffering..
http://news.efinancialcareers.sg/newsandviews_item/newsItemId-33994
So thinking Singapore is immune to global growth is wrong..
What happened in 2008-2009..thats not a long time ago...
Singapore was positioned at Gateway at that time too...did it saved it?
I agree Goldman and big banks might keep hiring..which I am happy with..cause they pay my bills..:D But fact is job market can turn very quickly..and it is.. mostly have freeze the hiring and many are sacking..
I absolutely agree in long term Singapore and Asia will do very well.. but not in short/medium term..
Do we really need remind of how many people were about to leave in 2009... thanks goodness that didnt materialize..and recession was shorter then expected..
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aDUTELnSlccU&refer=asia
do you really believe "this time its different"?
The answers were pretty clear.... the rich were looking to park their funds and Singapore was marketing itself with 2 x IR, Formula One.
Why does the rich want to park their money where there are IRs and F1? Is that for financial or other reasons? Or is it due to money laundering and having fun?
More FT coming this way....
http://www.straitstimes.com/BreakingNews/Money/Story/STIStory_697931.html
Home (http://www.straitstimes.com) > Breaking News > Money (http://forums.condosingapore.com/Breaking%2BNews/Money/Money.html) > Story
Aug 3, 2011
HSBC hiring, not axing, staff in S'pore
Headcount here will rise over next 5 years, even as bank plans cuts abroad
By Magdalen Ng
Mr Hungate believes HSBC Singapore is on track to reach its profit target of US$1 billion a year. -- ST FILE PHOTO
NOT only will Singapore staff be spared the axe as banking giant HSBC moves to slash 25,000 jobs in the next two years, but its headcount here will also be increased.
HSBC Singapore chief executive Alex Hungate told The Straits Times yesterday: 'In all our group statements, China and Singapore are the two countries, out of 87, that we actually mentioned we will be growing the number of people.'
Headcount will increase steadily over the next five years, with about 200 people taken on each year to add to the existing 3,500-strong workforce.
The new hires will bolster the bank's focus on trade, wealth management and financial markets.
The buoyancy in Singapore is in stark contrast to the bank's fortunes elsewhere.
Europe's largest bank has already cut 5,000 jobs following restructurings in Latin America, the United States, Britain, France and the Middle East, and has announced that a further 25,000 will go.
Just heard from CNBC that Standard Chartered is going to increase investments in 2H 2011, but did not mentioned where though
You sound like people who laughed at Lehman when they crashed.. everyone thought they deserved it.. but only when they came to know the impact to the fall...and once their own jobs dissipated then they came to realize the truth...
So fact is bankers losing their jobs in not a good things..banking is first to be impacted, but it will cascade down soon to normal economy..
US is the bigger version of lehman. it really deserves to go bankrupt.
but the fact is, the world cannot afford it to go bankrupt. Putin is right. US is the biggest parasite of the world. and the very unpleasant fact is that, the wood dies 1st before the parasite dies. :cool:
we need US to be alive :cool:
bargain hunter
03-08-11, 15:06
just a casual comment. i am surprised at how quiet the forum has become (in terms of discussion in the number of threads) and how the number of bulls are outnumbering the bears. ;)
US is the bigger version of lehman. it really deserves to go bankrupt.
but the fact is, the world cannot afford it to go bankrupt. Putin is right. US is the biggest parasite of the world. and the very unpleasant fact is that, the wood dies 1st before the parasite dies. :cool:
we need US to be alive :cool:
Just heard from CNBC that Standard Chartered is going to increase investments in 2H 2011, but did not mentioned where though
Stancharted did big hiring in SG in past few years.. but now they are moving some operations to China.... cost cutting :banghead:
Not sure how they doing on FO side in SG..
Stancharted did big hiring in SG in past few years.. but now they are moving some operations to China.... cost cutting :banghead:
Not sure how they doing on FO side in SG..
Goldman and HSBC already announced big increase in headcount here...
All other banks will follow suit.... its the same as the healthcare industry...
All moving their regional offices to China from Singapore...
Those in the healthcare industry is in big trouble man.... seem like all the big jobs going to China now...
The irony now is that SIN is facing a labour shortage in the finance and tourism related industry big time man....
US is the bigger version of lehman. it really deserves to go bankrupt.
but the fact is, the world cannot afford it to go bankrupt. Putin is right. US is the biggest parasite of the world. and the very unpleasant fact is that, the wood dies 1st before the parasite dies. :cool:
we need US to be alive :cool:
I think US and Lehman are different in essence
it's way too simplified to just look at their financial positions and conclude that US deserve a bankruptcy
As for Putin .... do you really give it a dime for what he says? Russia is just a version of Saudi with nuclear warheads, and Putin to Russia is not much more than the king of Saudi Arabia to his country
thomastansb
03-08-11, 17:02
Eh... Seriously, I don't know what you are talking here.
Hope you are not using the "If you cannot convince them, confuse them" tactics. Suddenly, there is cashflow coming also :doh:
I just say, I have a rental yield of 10% based on my purchase price which is fantastic. The next buyer want to calculate, I don't really care. I mind my own business. But the fact that I am getting 10% yield will NEVER change because my purchase price is FIXED. Unless rental changes. Hope you get it this time.
Using original purchase price to calculate rental yield can be very misleading and you might end up short changing yourself because things like property tax is calculated based on current marketing valuation and the potential buyer of your property will use current market valuation to access your rental returns.
You should use your mortgage payment to calculate your cashflow, not your rental yield.
thomastansb
03-08-11, 17:07
Value of property go up doesn't mean rental is up. Vice Versa. How did you come to that??????
Lastly, fair value is not determined by you. It is done by IRAS (they call it Annual Value / AV).
How the market or landlord determine its "fair" rental value of a property based on the current value of the property. If the value of property goes up, so will rental.
thomastansb
03-08-11, 17:12
Yeah. Fully agree !!
And simple rental yield is calculated by - Rental x 12 / Purchase Price.
Don't think they care how much you paid for the property or what's the current open market valuation, not to mention the yield, return, mortgage... the whole nine yards
The property tax is determined by the "current market rent"
If a property can rent out at 4000 a month, it will be the base of its property tax calculation. whether you paid 10m or 1cent for it, IRAS won't care and it's not in the formula
Eh... Seriously, I don't know what you are talking here.
Hope you are not using the "If you cannot convince them, confuse them" tactics. Suddenly, there is cashflow coming also :doh:
I just say, I have a rental yield of 10% based on my purchase price which is fantastic. The next buyer want to calculate, I don't really care. I mind my own business. But the fact that I am getting 10% yield will NEVER change because my purchase price is FIXED. Unless rental changes. Hope you get it this time.
If someone rent out a 30 years old 5rm HDB for $2.5K per month, his rental returns will be more than 100% because 30 years ago, the flat only cost $25,000.
Is that what you are driving at?
thomastansb
03-08-11, 17:17
Isn't that obvious? That is the way it is calculated.
If someone rent out a 30 years old 5rm HDB for $2.5K per month, his rental returns will be more than 100% because 30 years ago, the flat only cost $25,000.
Is that what you are driving at?
Isn't that obvious? That is the way it is calculated.
have you heard of a phase call "Penny Smart, Pound Foolish"
have you heard of a phase call "Penny Smart, Pound Foolish"
Jadey, please don't be offended but I think you may be slightly confused.
No shame if you don't know about matters such as annual value or how to calculate rental yield. If one is willing to humble down a bit, there is a lot to learn from many of the forummers here.
Btw, I thought the idiom was "Penny Wise, Pound Foolish". Well, I guess "Penny Smart Pound Foolish" mean the same thing, but what has it got to do with AV or Rental Yield?
If someone rent out a 30 years old 5rm HDB for $2.5K per month, his rental returns will be more than 100% because 30 years ago, the flat only cost $25,000.
Is that what you are driving at?
You can actually do whatever calculation you want, as long as it make sense to you
you can use
1. current rent/current market value: it tells you if you buy it now at the market price, what is your return. it may also be a good indicator whether you want to exit now
2. current rent/purchase price: it tells you what's the current return on the money you put in, assuming 100% equity. it tells you if you had made a smart investment decision some time ago
3. your neighbor's rent/purchase price: it tells you if you were as lucky as your neighbor whose tenant pays very high rent, what your return would be. It does not tell you much, except the potential yield you may get if your tenant pack and run away tonight
4. your neighbor's rent/purchase price: it tells you if you were as unlucky as your neighbor whose tenant pays very low rent, what your return would be. It does not tell you much, except the extent you may suffer if your tenant packs and run away tonight
I cannot think of any more scenarios but what I am trying to say is: as long as the calculation is mathematically correct, and the results tell you something, not need to say it is wrong
People are scared of double dip coming :scared-3: Who will buy right now?
..who wants to be a hero?
Wait a while and get a bargain...be it property or stock..if still have any cash left :luke-and-darth:
Many people who bought at high will be stuck with negative equity..not a good feeling :tsk-tsk:
People have been talking about the possibility since March. I get very excited when people have bad news :D. Fortune favours the bold.
Besides, certain stocks will still do very well despite weak GDP, exports, etc, and some property prices will still hold up well too.
When OCR condo last time price at 600 psf, people scream too expensive, and say it should be less. Now OCR condo all priced above 1000 psf, then everyone chiong to go and buy.
People like to buy high, sell low :confused:
Question: What do you want?
Answer: I don't.... hmmmm... ahah! I want what you want! :D
Met a former neighbour last sunday. Told me he just sold his nearing TOP property and made a profit of $150K. Now he has headache:doh: and ask me which option should he take:
1. Keep the profit and wait for the crash to buy property or stock
2. Buy another property immediately of better location since he is buying using part of the profit (i.e buy at lower $psf in actual fact).
3. Use the money to buy a car to enjoy
4. Any other option?
Anyone here has any advice?:D
Met a former neighbour last sunday. Told me he just sold his nearing TOP property and made a profit of $150K. Now he has headache:doh: and ask me which option should he take:
1. Keep the profit and wait for the crash to buy property or stock
2. Buy another property immediately of better location since he is buying using part of the profit (i.e buy at lower $psf in actual fact).
3. Use the money to buy a car to enjoy
4. Any other option?
Anyone here has any advice?:D
In today's context, $150k is actually quite little. COE for car is already around $70k. Better to save it for a rainy day (medical fees are expensive) if there is no intention to loan more to buy another house.
My advice is not to give any advice. If he loses money he might blame you :scared-2:
Rule of thumb is: if don't know what to do, best is not to do anything.
Anyone here has any advice?:D
Of course get a car ! :D Get ur priority right man! Money is not yours until it's spent :D
Otherwise take profit already and re- enter the market at a diff segment if u think that segment is relatively underperforming. Entering back at the same segment is totally pointless as it's as if u didn't sell, and yet incurring much more transaction cost. Plus if it's a second mortgage u lost the old gearing.
WTF.. were you born in china? Unless you born and bred communist you should know better..:doh:
Govt is for meant for laws,policies and creating environment for business and economy to grow..
Govt is not economy..:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
China economy looks strong cause the Govt has the money.. which is typical of a communist country.. real economy is driven by people and businesses not govt...:cheers6:
i m a humble singaporean and born n bred by normal singaporeans. No communist blood flows thru my veins. Sorry if i hurt your feeling by speaking the truth.
Which Govt feed the property bubble till it burst and affected the world? Which Govt encouraged the bankers and exported their shitty products to the world with with their superior banking system. Having policies to let pple refinance their debts and take more $$$ to spend first.
Nothing against the USA govt. The so called best democracy political system doesnt seems to be able to create laws, policies, environment for business to grow. The last 10 years, i only see negative trade deficit.
U think its correct to focus on cost cutting and not increase tax on the rich n business to increase income for nation? Y the best GOVT in the world is protecting the rich and taking away from the poor? To me its just want a easy way out, increase more borrowing and hopeful some idiot nation come support and lend more $$$ to solve their immediate debts. More of spending future $$$$. ISsnt it what got them into this shithole in the first place and now they want more of it.....
Feel free to air your views on my opinions and gun them down. Its not USA vs China in this world , neither its USA and the others.
US needs Bill Clinton to come back...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/1110165.stm
Met a former neighbour last sunday. Told me he just sold his nearing TOP property and made a profit of $150K. Now he has headache:doh: and ask me which option should he take:
1. Keep the profit and wait for the crash to buy property or stock
2. Buy another property immediately of better location since he is buying using part of the profit (i.e buy at lower $psf in actual fact).
3. Use the money to buy a car to enjoy
4. Any other option?
Anyone here has any advice?:D
i would say take some good $$$$ and spend it on family. Spend it on kids education, take family on a good trip. and use the $$$ to improve the quality of family's life. Help the children start a little saving acc to help them learn the value of savings from young.
Save the rest for future opportunties
US needs Bill Clinton to come back...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/1110165.stm
Bill is good! under his leadership, USA had 10 good years. Till the war mongers come along.
You sound like people who laughed at Lehman when they crashed.. everyone thought they deserved it.. but only when they came to know the impact to the fall...and once their own jobs dissipated then they came to realize the truth...
So fact is bankers losing their jobs in not a good things..banking is first to be impacted, but it will cascade down soon to normal economy..
I think you go ask around, people will still say they deserve it, and even more so when Wall Street held government ransom to print $$ to salvage the rest of the economy and non-financial sectors.
Recession due to the average person's belt tightening versus global financial crisis triggered by greedy bankers. I think we all saw clearly which was worse.
I think you go ask around, people will still say they deserve it, and even more so when Wall Street held government ransom to print $$ to salvage the rest of the economy and non-financial sectors.
Recession due to the average person's belt tightening versus global financial crisis triggered by greedy bankers. I think we all saw clearly which was worse.
But the bankers will not see it this way. They are only making $$$$ on the opportunities that arises. Market is falling? Short it some more. Didnt GS made the most $$$$ predicting the sub prime crash and burn?
Nothing personal, its just business.
Bill is good! under his leadership, USA had 10 good years. Till the war mongers come along.10 years or 8 years? Bill was sandwiched between 2 Bushes who were at loggerheads with Sad guy dam so his achievements were evidently more well received in stark contrast. :D
You can actually do whatever calculation you want, as long as it make sense to you
you can use
1. current rent/current market value: it tells you if you buy it now at the market price, what is your return. it may also be a good indicator whether you want to exit now
2. current rent/purchase price: it tells you what's the current return on the money you put in, assuming 100% equity. it tells you if you had made a smart investment decision some time ago
3. your neighbor's rent/purchase price: it tells you if you were as lucky as your neighbor whose tenant pays very high rent, what your return would be. It does not tell you much, except the potential yield you may get if your tenant pack and run away tonight
4. your neighbor's rent/purchase price: it tells you if you were as unlucky as your neighbor whose tenant pays very low rent, what your return would be. It does not tell you much, except the extent you may suffer if your tenant packs and run away tonight
I cannot think of any more scenarios but what I am trying to say is: as long as the calculation is mathematically correct, and the results tell you something, not need to say it is wrong
1) When talking about rental return using original purchase price e.g 10 15 20 or 30 years ago, it will not make any sense because you are not factoring in the cost of inflation. Basically you are using today value of money to compare against the value of money from the past, which also mean the the rental returns of property will continue to rise in tandem with inflation.
2) When using original purchase price to calculate rental return, there is no way you will be able to tell if your are over charging or grossly under charging your rental.
3) would it make any sense to you if someone tell you that the rental yield of X property ranges from 2% to 100%, "depending on your original purchase price"?
Calculating rental yield based on original purchase price is as good as saying I made 100% profit from my property without tell you how long have you been holding the property.
In any investment, there must always be a time line, or else, how do you measure your returns?
10 years or 8 years? Bill was sandwiched between 2 Bushes who were at loggerheads with Sad guy dam so his achievements were evidently more well received in stark contrast. :D
in my opinion, democrats are pro economic growth and republicans are pro wars. Too bad Bill have to shit at where he eats.
Jadey, please don't be offended but I think you may be slightly confused.
No shame if you don't know about matters such as annual value or how to calculate rental yield. If one is willing to humble down a bit, there is a lot to learn from many of the forummers here.
Btw, I thought the idiom was "Penny Wise, Pound Foolish". Well, I guess "Penny Smart Pound Foolish" mean the same thing, but what has it got to do with AV or Rental Yield?
Thanks for offering to share..can I get your expert opinion on this.
Does rental drives value of property or value of property drives rental?
i would say take some good $$$$ and spend it on family. Spend it on kids education, take family on a good trip. and use the $$$ to improve the quality of family's life. Help the children start a little saving acc to help them learn the value of savings from young.
Save the rest for future opportunties
I would say invest on self-improvement and health are good alternatives. We can't possible bring the $ and properties to another world. They will be made of recycled paper and are dirt cheap, not sure about property policies at the other world though (property tax, stamp duty?) :confused:
Let me ask you a question.
Does rental drives value of property or value of property drives rental?
What has this got to do with Annual Value calculated by IRAS or Rental Yield?
What has this got to do with Annual Value calculated by IRAS or Rental Yield?
We will come back to what I said later. Appreciate your expert opinion on this question.
We will come back to what I said later. Appreciate your expert opinion on this question.
Oh... you are mistaken. I am no expert, when I mentioned you could learn from the forummers here I wasn't referring to me but the others.
wrt your question, my (shallow) opinion is that rental drives the value of the property more than value of the property drive rental.
Did I answer correctly? can you enlighten?
Oh... you are mistaken. I am no expert, when I mentioned you could learn from the forummers here I wasn't referring to me but the others.
wrt your question, my (shallow) opinion is that rental drives the value of the property more than value of the property drive rental.
Did I answer correctly? can you enlighten?
You could be right, however
Rental yield of CCR properties have always been very lousy as compared to OCR or HDB flat, but somehow they are still the most expensive. Any explanation on that?
When property price surge in singapore, does it surge because rental yield increases?
You could be right, however
Rental yield of CCR properties have always been very lousy as compared to OCR or HDB flat, but somehow they are still the most expensive. Any explanation on that?
When property price surge in singapore, does it surge because rental yield increases?
Well not just CCR properties have low yield, landed properties as a whole have very low yied as well. This has been the case all along. This is consistent with the value of the property being unable to drive the rental... no?
Property price surge because of many factors. Prospective rental yield is a possible contributing factor for some properties.
Well not just CCR properties have low yield, landed properties as a whole have very low yied as well. This has been the case all along. This is consistent with the value of the property being unable to drive the rental... no?
Property price surge because of many factors. Prospective rental yield is a possible contributing factor for some properties.
If like you said, rental yield drives property value, then value of properties with low yield should not be appreciating at all, or perhaps should depreciate till the rental yield become attractive again.
If like you said, rental yield drives property value, then value of properties with low yield should not be appreciating at all, or perhaps should depreciate till the rental yield become attractive again.
I think you have mistaken me again.
I said rental drives value more than value drives rental. This means rental yield contributes more to value but not always. Landed and CCR are a case in point.
thomastansb
03-08-11, 23:42
Then you will be talking about very complex calculation. Here, we talk about simple rental yield. Rent x 12 / purchase price.
If you are talking about inflation adjusted returns, then there are many interesting things to factor in. For example, we can have seasonally adjusted rental yield? Currency adjusted rental yield. Just to name a few. The list is virtually endless and you are only talking about inflation.
So to make things very simple, rental x 12 / purchase price.
Your point 2 = There is no way to calculate. You have to accept market rate. You mean you bought at a high price then you ask for high rental? What kind of logic is that? Even if you bought high high and when rental drop, you also lan lan rent out low. Unless you keep it empty.
Your point 3 = Nope. Rental is calculated based on PURCHASE PRICE. This I have been saying until the cow come home (thank you Low Thia Kiang). Current buyer buy at the price, use rental x 12 / purchase price. If first buyer buy 100k and rent out at 10k per year, first buyer having 10% rental yield. Second buyer buy from first buyer at 200k, so second buyer is deemed to be having 5% yield. Got it?
Your last point = Which I said earlier. What kind of measurements you want? You want, we can also factor in exchange rate. Why stop at inflation, right? What about asset depreciation? That is why we use the simplest formula. Assume you buy an asset at 100k, returns 10k means 10% returns. Very simple.
1) When talking about rental return using original purchase price e.g 10 15 20 or 30 years ago, it will not make any sense because you are not factoring in the cost of inflation. Basically you are using today value of money to compare against the value of money from the past, which also mean the the rental returns of property will continue to rise in tandem with inflation.
2) When using original purchase price to calculate rental return, there is no way you will be able to tell if your are over charging or grossly under charging your rental.
3) would it make any sense to you if someone tell you that the rental yield of X property ranges from 2% to 100%, "depending on your original purchase price"?
Calculating rental yield based on original purchase price is as good as saying I made 100% profit from my property without tell you how long have you been holding the property.
In any investment, there must always be a time line, or else, how do you measure your returns?
thomastansb
03-08-11, 23:45
None. Supply and demand drive rental. Doesn't mean you buy high, you can rent out high even though you are asking high. Your one unit cannot possibly beat the market.
I ask you, you buy very high. But no one renting from you because very little demand. Maybe because Government restrict foreigners. You still ask very high rental? There will be confirm one buay ta han accept lower rental. Ask yourself, who rent your house if got too much supply and very little demand.
Or you still thinking property price drive rental?
Thanks for offering to share..can I get your expert opinion on this.
Does rental drives value of property or value of property drives rental?
thomastansb
03-08-11, 23:49
Rental is just one of the factor. Supply and demand still the key factor but still many many factors like location etc.
East coast rental is lousy. But many people like to buy for own stay. So prices there are higher but rental is bad because it is city fringe at best with no MRT.
You could be right, however
Rental yield of CCR properties have always been very lousy as compared to OCR or HDB flat, but somehow they are still the most expensive. Any explanation on that?
When property price surge in singapore, does it surge because rental yield increases?
thomastansb
03-08-11, 23:53
Rental is just one of the factor. People might pay more for location. Or people might pay more for serenity. Doesn't mean must hit 5% rental yield you buy. Some location 2% yield all the years. Supply and demand.
If like you said, rental yield drives property value, then value of properties with low yield should not be appreciating at all, or perhaps should depreciate till the rental yield become attractive again.
I think you go ask around, people will still say they deserve it, and even more so when Wall Street held government ransom to print $$ to salvage the rest of the economy and non-financial sectors.
Recession due to the average person's belt tightening versus global financial crisis triggered by greedy bankers. I think we all saw clearly which was worse.
Thats clearly misconception..
Should tomorrow temasek goes on and sue Goldman that they didnt knew the product they bought?
No doubt Lehman acted greedy..but most of the people who bought from Lehman were very sophisticated investors and all of them were greedy..
Didnt the people who bought Lehman shares got a great results earlier.. did they complaied at that time?
When you get .5% interest in bank account..and then if tomorrow a new bank comes up and starts giving you 5% interest would you take? or would you think there is something fishy?
Except the very few small investors who were mis sold..rest were all sophisticated institutional investors who knew what they are buying...
and FYI, wall street has returned most of TARP money..along with profit on it...
Its the politicians and Obama's way of getting populatrity by giving people a target against wall street to hide his own failure...
After years in Presidency he is a big big failure... his policies are anti business.. and anti growth....
All he do is curse wall steet for his failure..
And US economy didn't fall down cause of Lehman..Lehman fell cause of US economy.. Its was the prices of US houses..it was the people unable to pay mortgage which made Lehman fail..
Most of the people working in finance work very hard for the $$ they earn..
And US economy didn't fall down cause of Lehman..Lehman fell cause of US economy.. Its was the prices of US houses..it was the people unable to pay mortgage which made Lehman fail..
Most of the people working in finance work very hard for the $$ they earn..
that where i dont see eye to eye. Y was pple unable to pay? Because they row their credit like no 2molo. x2 row their credit based on belief of ever rising property prices. Every bank had to get their hands on the high risk damn high return sub prime mortgage train. dont worry if it fails, just pay some premium to AIG and transfer the RISK. AIG- dont worry, just makan!
Comeon!! U got to be from Mars to believe bankers work very hard for their $$$$. Can banker work harder than a Bangladesh construction worker or a cow plowing the land?i dont see them paid millions.
Bankers are paid damn high cos they can generate tons of profit from high networth individuals or corporations, not because they work damn hard. Unless u consider golf is hardwork.... Nothing wrong earning big bucks when one is generating tons of value for a entity.
BTW i dont hate $$$ and i m strong believer of being paid in line with one's capability. And i m not questioning if u are a hard worker.
Condo Kaiser
04-08-11, 00:36
agree with last point tht most people work very hard to earn their money in banks... i just got home not long ago.... :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
Asians generally work harder than Americans and many Europeans to earn that $1 spending power. How can Americans and Europeans continue with their standard of living despite owing so much debt? I'm inclined to think US and EU will be printing money soon as their economies dip. They will print more to inflate away their debts and make Asians work even harder. Obama is seeking his 2nd term next year, and he will want the stocks markets and employment rate to look rosy.
Manipulate to look rosy? That will only plunge deeper. Sometimes just have to let the market correct.:(
US merely delayed their default till 2013. Nothing more unless they can find a long term solution to their problems. Currently, the loudest solution coming out of US is to reduce or cut down future expenses which will not solve their debt problem... :tsk-tsk:
US merely delayed their default till 2013. Nothing more unless they can find a long term solution to their problems. Currently, the loudest solution coming out of US is to reduce or cut down future expenses which will not solve their debt problem... :tsk-tsk:
2013? another ingredient for the anticipated "perfect storm" in 2013 :)
2013? another ingredient for the anticipated "perfect storm" in 2013 :)That leaves us with 2 years to save up to buy in 2013.. :D
That leaves us with 2 years to save up to buy in 2013.. :D
those on sideline waiting for "price correction", "crash" etc, 2013 is one great potential year to look out for
:spliff:
those on sideline waiting for "price correction", "crash" etc, 2013 is one great potential year to look out for
:spliff:
I think 2013 is too widely anticipated. Too many people would be waiting at the sidelines for it to materialise as bargain year. May be an anti-climax.
First, 2013 may end up with nothing big, just a further extension or something of that sort.
Second, the wide anticipation would cause too many potential buyers waiting to enter to ensure that 2013 will indeed end up with nothing because the demands are still there to support the fundamentals to keep prices afloat! :doh:
Once you see a good deal (very rare indeed), enter now to scoop it up to still enjoy the low interest rates for awhile more. :o
I think 2013 is too widely anticipated. Too many people would be waiting at the sidelines for it to materialise as bargain year. May be an anti-climax.
well, it's still good 2 years away.
More twists and turns for sure.
Since the weekend is coming. Just for fun, I have added the long term ppi chart updated to 4Q 09.
No offense to anyone but for those people who keep saying that they are waiting for the next dip to buy, here is something interesting to note.
Almost every dip in the curve is higher than the one before. If you had waited since 1986 (index 33), the next small dip would have been in 4Q90 (index 56.4). If you missed that one, the next dip is in 4Q98 (100). If you still did not get a unit then, you could have picked one up in 4Q04 but index at 113.8. You had just missed the last dip in 2Q09 but the index is at 133.3.
I leave it to all of you to draw your own conclusions about "waiting for next dip to buy".. Like I said, this is just for fun but pretty interesting when you start to analyse trends.
http://www.myalbum.com/Photo-NW4LORIS-D.jpg
I think you have mistaken me again.
I said rental drives value more than value drives rental. This means rental yield contributes more to value but not always. Landed and CCR are a case in point.
Based on your argument of rental drives value more than value drives rental, then would you be able to explain why properties with such good rental yield doesnt command a higher value? (see link)
http://www.propwise.sg/singapore-property-the-top-5-highest-yielding-projects/
While at the same time, properties in CCR which doesnt have good rental yield yet they command such a high price.
thomastansb
04-08-11, 10:13
Ai yo, read my post before you reply lah. Rental is all but 1 factor in determining the price.
Based on your argument of rental drives value more than value drives rental, then would you be able to explain why properties with such good rental yield doesnt command a higher value? (see link)
http://www.propwise.sg/singapore-property-the-top-5-highest-yielding-projects/
While at the same time, properties in CCR which doesnt have good rental yield yet they command such a high price.
thomastansb
04-08-11, 10:17
Well, you can borrow and spend like nobody business. Like Italy, Greece etc. They are called PIIGS. Not sure if it is meant to be similar to Pigs. But anyway, they borrow and spend and promise luxury lifestyle at the expense of future generations. Then borrow again to pay off interest. One day, someone will realise that you can't even borrow to pay off interest. Then you end up like Greece. Country is technically bankrupt. Their citizens also funny. Economy already like shit and yet, they protest, strike etc.. They ask for pay rise, retirement earlier but they cannot see their company going broke soon and country is failing. Next one to see will be Italy. Italy also another funny country. They are saying don't divert attention to us. We are fine. Ya.. That was what Greece said.
Asians generally work harder than Americans and many Europeans to earn that $1 spending power. How can Americans and Europeans continue with their standard of living despite owing so much debt? I'm inclined to think US and EU will be printing money soon as their economies dip. They will print more to inflate away their debts and make Asians work even harder. Obama is seeking his 2nd term next year, and he will want the stocks markets and employment rate to look rosy.
Based on your argument of rental drives value more than value drives rental, then would you be able to explain why properties with such good rental yield doesnt command a higher value? (see link)
http://www.propwise.sg/singapore-property-the-top-5-highest-yielding-projects/
While at the same time, properties in CCR which doesnt have good rental yield yet they command such a high price.
I was rsponding to your question of whether rental drives value or value drives rental. You only gave me two components to play with leh.... rental and value.
So in my opinion rental has more impact on value than value has on rental. Wrong ah...?
What's your point ah..? If you have a point, please say it. I am very willing to learn from you. I still don't know what has this got to do with rental yield calculation or annual value. I thought Thomasstanb answered all your questions eloquently already.
Then you will be talking about very complex calculation. Here, we talk about simple rental yield. Rent x 12 / purchase price.
If you are talking about inflation adjusted returns, then there are many interesting things to factor in. For example, we can have seasonally adjusted rental yield? Currency adjusted rental yield. Just to name a few. The list is virtually endless and you are only talking about inflation.
So to make things very simple, rental x 12 / purchase price.
a) Your investment is in S$, your rental income is S$ and your are living in Singapore. How does currency fluctuation affect your returns?
b) I am not aware the rental return in seasonal. Can you please explain that?
c) There is a very simple solution to your complex problem. use your rental x 12 / current valuation of your property. That will take care of whatever inflation adjustment because you are using present value of money to measure against the present value of your property.
Your point 2 = There is no way to calculate. You have to accept market rate. You mean you bought at a high price then you ask for high rental? What kind of logic is that? Even if you bought high high and when rental drop, you also lan lan rent out low. Unless you keep it empty.
You have just exposed the limitation and worthlessness of using original purchase price as a basis of comparing rental return. With your way of calculating rental return, it will not make any sense to anyone except yourself. When property investors speaks about rental returns, it is always using current rental and current price.
What is the logic that prime district property command a higher rental psf than OCR property? And why do certain property command a higher rental than other? By the look of the landlord face? The original purchase price?
http://www.ura.gov.sg/realEstateWeb/realEstate/pageflow/rental/RentalController.jpf
Your point 3 = Nope. Rental is calculated based on PURCHASE PRICE. This I have been saying until the cow come home (thank you Low Thia Kiang). Current buyer buy at the price, use rental x 12 / purchase price. If first buyer buy 100k and rent out at 10k per year, first buyer having 10% rental yield. Second buyer buy from first buyer at 200k, so second buyer is deemed to be having 5% yield. Got it?
You can calculate or brag abot your investment it whichever way you want, but I just wish to highlight that your way of calculating and comparing rental yield return is both misleading and meaningless to everyone except yourself. you can choose to lie to yourself, but you cannot expect others to believe you.
Your last point = Which I said earlier. What kind of measurements you want? You want, we can also factor in exchange rate. Why stop at inflation, right? What about asset depreciation? That is why we use the simplest formula. Assume you buy an asset at 100k, returns 10k means 10% returns. Very simple.
Replacing the original purchase price with current property valuation will take care of all that you just mentioned
I was rsponding to your question of whether rental drives value or value drives rental. You only gave me two components to play with leh.... rental and value.
So in my opinion rental has more impact on value than value has on rental. Wrong ah...?
What's your point ah..? If you have a point, please say it. I am very willing to learn from you. I still don't know what has this got to do with rental yield calculation or annual value. I thought Thomasstanb answered all your questions eloquently already.
The reason why you find it challenging to reply to my question is because you are unable to support your own arguments.
thomastansb
04-08-11, 10:48
a) You mean we don't do import? Don't go overseas? Hello...
b) Try finding a tenant in Dec
c) No. That will be dumb. If I buy at 1 million with 3k rental, I am having 3.6% yield. Then property drop to 500k with 1.5k, am I suppose to console myself by saying I still have 3.6% yield when in reality, I am having 1.8% yield.
C part 2) Investment different. They talk about the price you buy now. You as a buyer. Back again to PURCHASE PRICE.
C part 3) Property price don't move in line with inflation. So how is current price going to be a good gauge?
C part 4) I am not bragging. 10% yield is 10% yield. How do you expect me to change it? Are you saying people will be hoping for property price to drop so they have higher yield (in their world) ???
C part 5) Prices in CCR is higher because of location. Rental is just one of the factor. I say how many times already. Cow already come home and cook as my meal already. You never read then keep bullshitting here. I don't think I want to reply you because you always don't bother to read.
Btw, do you know how CPI is calculated?
:doh:
a) Your investment is in S$, your rental income is S$ and your are living in Singapore. How does currency fluctuation affect your returns?
b) I am not aware the rental return in seasonal. Can you please explain that?
c) There is a very simple solution to your complex problem. use your rental x 12 / current valuation of your property. That will take care of whatever inflation adjustment because you are using present value of money to measure against the present value of your property.
You have just exposed the limitation and worthlessness of using original purchase price as a basis of comparing rental return. With your way of calculating rental return, it will not make any sense to anyone except yourself. When property investors speaks about rental returns, it is always using current rental and current price.
What is the logic that prime district property command a higher rental psf than OCR property? And why do certain property command a higher rental than other? By the look of the landlord face? The original purchase price?
http://www.ura.gov.sg/realEstateWeb/realEstate/pageflow/rental/RentalController.jpf
You can calculate or brag abot your investment it whichever way you want, but I just wish to highlight that your way of calculating and comparing rental yield return is both misleading and meaningless to anyone except yourself. you can choose to lie to yourself, but you cannot expect others to believe you.
Replacing the original purchase price with current property valuation will take care of all that you just mentioned
thomastansb
04-08-11, 10:50
That must be the joke of the day
:)
The reason why you find it challenging to reply to my question is because you are unable to support your own arguments.
a) You mean we don't do import? Don't go overseas? Hello...
b) Try finding a tenant in Dec
c) No. That will be dumb. If I buy at 1 million with 3k rental, I am having 3.6% yield. Then property drop to 500k with 1.5k, am I suppose to console myself by saying I still have 3.6% yield when in reality, I am having 1.8% yield.
C part 2) Investment different. They talk about the price you buy now. You as a buyer. Back again to PURCHASE PRICE.
C part 3) Property price don't move in line with inflation. So how is current price going to be a good gauge?
C part 4) I am not bragging. 10% yield is 10% yield. How do you expect me to change it? Are you saying people will be hoping for property price to drop so they have higher yield (in their world) ???
C part 5) Prices in CCR is higher because of location. Rental is just one of the factor. I say how many times already. Cow already come home and cook as my meal already. You never read then keep bullshitting here. I don't think I want to reply you because you always don't bother to read.
Btw, do you know how CPI is calculated?
:doh:
Holycow, we are getting into micro and macro economics 101 now.. :doh:
Before I unsubscribe myself in this discussion, can you share with us the name of the property which is offering you 10% rental yield?
thomastansb
04-08-11, 11:00
Go read my previous post. I did give an example.
Holycow, we are getting into micro and macro economics 101 now.. :doh:
Just because I unsubscribe myself in this discussion, can you share with us the name of the property which is offering you 10% rental yield?
The reason why you find it challenging to reply to my question is because you are unable to support your own arguments.
Oh... ok lah if you say so. You are asking me questions in dribs and drabs. What in your opinion is my argument exactly? You are putting words in my mouth.
Go read my previous post. I did give an example.
I am asking what is the name of the property that is offering you 10% rental return?
Oh... ok lah if you say so. You are asking me questions in dribs and drabs. What in your opinion is my argument exactly? You are putting words in my mouth.
I thought you were trying to convince us that rental drives value of property more than value of property driving rental?
Historical Cost vs Fair Value.
thomastansb
04-08-11, 11:13
I already ignore him/her. Lazy to reply. Reply also he/she didn't read. Still asking me what is the condo name :doh:. I thought I give an example in my previous post.
Oh... ok lah if you say so. You are asking me questions in dribs and drabs. What in your opinion is my argument exactly? You are putting words in my mouth.
I thought you were trying to convince us that rental drives value of property more than value of property driving rental?
To me your original question is simple so the answer must be simple.
Does rental yield affect value of property? Mostly Yes
Does value of property affect rental yield? Mostly No
Therefore : Does rental yield affect property value more than property value affects rental yield? Mostly Yes
As to why CCR is still commands premium despite low rental yields is a different question. You are making things too complicated.
I already ignore him/her. Lazy to reply. Reply also he/she didn't read. Still asking me what is the condo name :doh:. I thought I give an example in my previous post.
You ho sim try to share with young punk how to make $$ but instead of being thankful, try to act smart and tell you that all the $$ you make is not real but imaginery :scared-5:
Let him continue to play with his real world and we can continue to enjoy our imaginery world based on `historical cost' like masterkey suggested.
To me the question is simple so the answer must be simple.
Does rental yield affect value of property? Mostly Yes
Does value of property affect rental yield? Mostly Not
Therefore : Does rental yield affect property value more than property value affects rental yield? Mostly Yes
As to why CCR is still commands premium despite low rental yields is a different question.
And why do certain property command a higher rental than others? Is it because tenants are uninformed or too generous? or is it because tenants sees values in the property. such as location, facilities, amenities transport etc?
thomastansb
04-08-11, 11:26
Such is life. Haha
You ho sim try to share with young punk how to make $$ but instead of being thankful, try to act smart and tell you that all the $$ you make is not real but imaginery :scared-5:
Let him continue to play with his real world and we can continue to enjoy our imaginery world based on `historical cost' like masterkey suggested.
You ho sim try to share with young punk how to make $$ but instead of being thankful, try to act smart and tell you that all the $$ you make is not real but imaginery :scared-5:
Let him continue to play with his real world and we can continue to enjoy our imaginery world based on `historical cost' like masterkey suggested.
sharing ideas how to make money? from someone who doesnt even care or understand the value of money? :tsk-tsk:
Most people in this forum only likes to talk up their own properties and district while at the same time keeping quiet about potential lobang until the get their hands on it.
And why do certain property command a higher rental than others? Is it because tenants are uninformed or too generous? or is it because tenants sees values in the property. such as location, facilities, amenities transport etc?
Ok.. so now we are moving into a different question.
The answer is yes, yes, yes and yes. All are factors and if enough tenants feel or think the same way, what we have is called demand. And the availabilty of what landlords can provide is called supply.
sharing ideas how to make money? from someone who doesnt even care or understand the value of money? :tsk-tsk:
Most people in this forum only likes to talk up their own properties and district while at the same time keeping quiet about potential lobang until the get their hands on it.
yup deep down inside we are all self centred greedy people...:D ...sad but TRUE:scared-1:
China is the biggest creditor of US and is it the west that own most of the US govt bonds or asia? US is only good for stabilising the world and act as a big brother, but china can do quite well without US if one day things come to that stage. Just ask yourself most of what you use in your daily lives, how many of those things are made in USA? I agree when it comes to computers, it is very hard to do without microsoft and google/yahoo, but apart from that, asia is quite self sufficient.
The answer is the US and west, both governmental and private own most of the debt. I hear this argument over & over on so many boards & I never stops amazing me the difference between perception and reality is.
China is biggest SINGLE creditor - overall foreign ownership is 28% China's slice will not be 100% of that as Japan owns half as much and the UK a big chunk too.
In fact European banks hold over 2/4 of a trillion US debt.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/17/Estimated_ownership_of_treasury_securities_by_year.gif
If you want to stick to simple anecdotes then no-ones going to stop you of course...... but the real picture is far more complicated.
Ok.. so now we are moving into a different question.
The answer is yes, yes, yes and yes. All are factors and if enough tenants feel or think the same way, what we have is called demand. And the availabilty of what landlords can provide is called supply.
We are not moving anywhere, we are still debating if rental drives the value of property or vice versa.
I do think that value in the property drives rental because if tenants or investors doesn't see value in the property, then you would be able to command high rental.
The answer is the US and west, both governmental and private own most of the debt. I hear this argument over & over on so many boards & I never stops amazing me the difference between perception and reality is.
China is biggest SINGLE creditor - overall foreign ownership is 28% China's slice will not be 100% of that as Japan owns half as much and the UK a big chunk too.
In fact European banks hold over 2/4 of a trillion US debt.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/17/Estimated_ownership_of_treasury_securities_by_year.gif
If you want to stick to simple anecdotes then no-ones going to stop you of course...... but the real picture is far more complicated.
Genuine qns: when US defaults, can they choose which creditor to default on? As in, only China and Japan debts will be defaulted but continue to service those of US and EU?
We are not moving anywhere, we are still debating if rental drives the value of property or vice versa.
I do think that value in the property drives rental because if tenants or investors doesn't see value in the property, then you would be able to command high rental.
sometimes it does, sometimes it doesnt. Is not an exact science. :)
Since the weekend is coming. Just for fun, I have added the long term ppi chart updated to 4Q 09.
No offense to anyone but for those people who keep saying that they are waiting for the next dip to buy, here is something interesting to note.
Almost every dip in the curve is higher than the one before. If you had waited since 1986 (index 33), the next small dip would have been in 4Q90 (index 56.4). If you missed that one, the next dip is in 4Q98 (100). If you still did not get a unit then, you could have picked one up in 4Q04 but index at 113.8. You had just missed the last dip in 2Q09 but the index is at 133.3.
I leave it to all of you to draw your own conclusions about "waiting for next dip to buy".. Like I said, this is just for fun but pretty interesting when you start to analyse trends.
http://www.myalbum.com/Photo-NW4LORIS-D.jpg
Thats a useless chart..
Unless something drastic happends..in a long term every dip will always be higher then before..even if world crashed at 2008..it couldnt have gone to 1930.. right? 1000$ will never buy you car again..right?
So comparing 1980 to 2011 is comparing apple to orange..
When you buy a house then you put your money into it..there is a lost of opportunity cost...
Ofcourse singapore has grown tremendously during past decades.. so prices have rises like that too...
We are not moving anywhere, we are still debating if rental drives the value of property or vice versa.
I do think that value in the property drives rental because if tenants or investors doesn't see value in the property, then you would be able to command high rental.
don't quite understand your statement.
We are not moving anywhere, we are still debating if rental drives the value of property or vice versa.
I do think that value in the property drives rental because if tenants or investors doesn't see value in the property, then you would be able to command high rental.
Tenants and investors sometimes consider different things. For example whether it is FH or 99LH is transparent to the tenant.
For example 2 condos side by side, same developer/architect/design/layout/facing ...etc but one is FH the other 99LH. Naturally the value of the FH is higher, but how can the landlord convince his tenant that he should pay more than the neighbouring condo?
Tenants and investors sometimes consider different things. For example whether it is FH or 99LH is transparent to the tenant.
For example 2 condos side by side, same developer/architect/design/layout/facing ...etc but one is FH the other 99LH. Naturally the value of the FH is higher, but how can the landlord convince his tenant that he should pay more than the neighbouring condo?
Not possible. Tenants won't care whether it's FH or LH.
Not possible. Tenants won't care whether it's FH or LH.
Precisely, so the value of the property doesn't drive its rental.
Precisely, so the value of the property doesn't drive its rental.
another example, compare apts of similar size in town and further from town. The quantum difference is probably double. But you would never get twice the rental for somewhere near town.
Thanks for offering to share..can I get your expert opinion on this.
Does rental drives value of property or value of property drives rental?
Supply and demand are the main drivers for both
stalingrad
04-08-11, 13:01
Tenants and investors sometimes consider different things. For example whether it is FH or 99LH is transparent to the tenant.
For example 2 condos side by side, same developer/architect/design/layout/facing ...etc but one is FH the other 99LH. Naturally the value of the FH is higher, but how can the landlord convince his tenant that he should pay more than the neighbouring condo?
your thinking is illogical and your english is worse.
"transparent to the tenant"? You meant to say "irrelevant to the tenant."
Second, as many others have said, tenants of course don't care whether the unit is FH or LH. he is going to be there only for two years. But the landlord certainly cares. If he holds the unit as a FH unit, his stream of rental income would be longer, which makes the unit more valuable.
get it? sheesh!!!
Supply and demand are the main drivers for both
Totally agree.
your thinking is illogical and your english is worse.
"transparent to the tenant"? You meant to say "irrelevant to the tenant."
Second, as many others have said, tenants of course don't care whether the unit is FH or LH. he is going to be there only for two years. But the landlord certainly cares. If he holds the unit as a FH unit, his stream of rental income would be longer, which makes the unit more valuable.
get it? sheesh!!!
Whoah.... English and Economics lesson at one go.
Thank you for correcting my poor English.
Anyway the question posed by Jadey (as I understand it) was whether the value of the property drives up the rental yield. To which my reply was "no", using FH and LH as an example. What is illogical about it? Please enlighten.
So the question of rental drive property price or property price drive rental is not a valid one to begin with. They are correlated, but are driven by different forces.
In business school, you sometimes can see professors put in so much effort in teaching how to price a option, how to calculate cost of equity, ..... but they never work in the industry one day before. Those concepts are valuable, but in reality you just need to pick up your telephone to call the ECM desk to get the cost of equity of certain company, and the number from ECM most likely will be different from you calculated. In school, they may teach you one thing, but in the real world, people just do it differently
Back to the rental yield. Does it make sense to use current rent and current market value of the property to calculate? to me, it does have its merit but unfortunately the market value is unknown until an option to purchase is exercised. It is still a good indicator on how hard your property is working for you but at the end of the day it is just a theoretical number.
From theory, a person can easily mistakenly think that in Singapore property tax is based on the property value if he/she does not own a property in here, or never rent out a property here before. In other countries, some do use the current property value, some may have other basis. Just like a finance professor who may be very good at academic theories but never works one day in industry, he/she may be able to talk a lot but the world actually operates different. Only when you've receive a property tax bill from Singapore IRAS, then you will start to understand how property tax works. Of course, some rich landlords may never look at the bill and just pay for it.
To all of the professors, please don't feel offended, you are great!
I am not rich, I examine the prop tax bill from IRAS, I still don't know how it works.
:banghead::banghead::banghead:
I can only guess they use a theory called Hao Hsiao 101.
I am not rich, I examine the prop tax bill from IRAS, I still don't know how it works.
:banghead::banghead::banghead:
Pick up your phone and call IRAS lor. They will give you the formula
Pick up your phone and call IRAS lor. They will give you the formula
no leh, they happily give formula of X% x AV. But never say how to arrive at AV leh.
What number you called?
;)
Whoah.... English and Economics lesson at one go.
Thank you for correcting my poor English.
Anyway the question posed by Jadey (as I understand it) was whether the value of the property drives up the rental yield. To which my reply was "no", using FH and LH as an example. What is illogical about it? Please enlighten.
My question was "Does rental drives value of property or value of property drives rental" not rental yield.
Does anyone have an example of 2 side by size projects, one LH one FH and both are about the same size and age. Would be nice to make a comparison,
My question was "Does rental drives value of property or value of property drives rental" not rental yield.
Does anyone have an example of 2 side by size projects, one LH one FH and both are about the same size and age. Would be nice to make a comparison,
Hope you don't mind I putting it out again
rental and property value are correlated, but they don't drive each other directly
Supply and demand are the main force driving them
thomastansb
04-08-11, 14:29
AV is the value as if the unit is rented out for 1 year. But IRAS also clever. They take lower percentile of the rental so you cannot argue much. Imagine one project average rental is 3k a month (36k a year), they tell you 28k AV. Then you lan lan pay happily.
no leh, they happily give formula of X% x AV. But never say how to arrive at AV leh.
What number you called?
;)
One question,
How will IRAS determine the AV of a private property if there is no past records of rental transaction in that development? ie. all are owner occupied?
Thats a useless chart..
Unless something drastic happends..in a long term every dip will always be higher then before..even if world crashed at 2008..it couldnt have gone to 1930.. right? 1000$ will never buy you car again..right?
So comparing 1980 to 2011 is comparing apple to orange..
When you buy a house then you put your money into it..there is a lost of opportunity cost...
Ofcourse singapore has grown tremendously during past decades.. so prices have rises like that too...
Don't tell me you are one of those waiting for the 'dip'.
You may pooh pooh the chart but there are a few good lessons to be learnt.
1. There is no point in saying ' I wait until prices go back down to 19XX's (the low years) prices.
2. If you analyse each dip and and look at the average decrease in each dip, then this could be a great proxy to buy. Why? because, if you wait for a benchmark past year's price to be reached or the absolute 'low' of the dip (which no one can predict), you will miss the boat and then lament whilst the curve continues on its upward trend.
3. If you compare this chart with our inflation rate over the years. It will also show what a great inflation hedge property is over the long term.
4. Your remark about opportunity cost is somewhat misguided. Opprtunity cost has to be looked at in terms of investment horizon. Sure, some alternative investments may reap you better gains over short-term horizons but in terms of a long term investment horizon, property can't be beat. This chart is testament to that statement. Of course, it all boils down to timing your entry point (see item 2)and your holding power.
no leh, they happily give formula of X% x AV. But never say how to arrive at AV leh.
What number you called?
;)
For commercial properties it is easier to find out the AV
office and shopping mall, it shall be the rental income
Hotel, it shall be the income from room, plus the rental income from commercial space. The 2nd part is more complicated to explain here but if you google IRAS about property tax, you shall be able to find the details.
For residential, the AV should be determined based on the rental in the area. IRAS may do a survey or collect data from the leases which the stamp duty is paid for. If you are really interested in the details, call them or google, please
thomastansb
04-08-11, 14:44
IRAS is clever. Apart from nearby condos, they wait for 3-6 months before sending you property tax. So those project just TOP, you won't know how much your property tax will be until like 6 months down the road. I guess they also lazy to entertain refunds so they make sure you have nothing to argue with them. That is a pretty good system.
For commercial properties it is easier to find out the AV
office and shopping mall, it shall be the rental income
Hotel, it shall be the income from room, plus the rental income from commercial space. The 2nd part is more complicated to explain here but if you google IRAS about property tax, you shall be able to find the details.
For residential, the AV should be determined based on the rental in the area. IRAS may do a survey or collect data from the leases which the stamp duty is paid for. If you are really interested in the details, call them or google, please
One question,
How ... the AV of a....
hey what's this obsession with AV ? does this in any way affect your life ;) ?
hey what's this obsession with AV ? does this in any way affect your life ;) ?
just type "property tax annual value" in Google and answers shall come out fairly quick. Just make sure to look for those information relevant to the Singapore context.
4. Your remark about opportunity cost is somewhat misguided. Opprtunity cost has to be looked at in terms of investment horizon. Sure, some alternative investments may reap you better gains over short-term horizons but in terms of a long term investment horizon, property can't be beat. This chart is testament to that statement. Of course, it all boils down to timing your entry point (see item 2)and your holding power.
what you mean by long term? 50 years?
Everyone has diff notion of long term..You may intend to die and leave your "great property investment" for you childrens to profit from..
You seem to be among the group who believe they can buy and property will always rise.. I dont belong to that group.. if it rises in 50 years time..its of no use for me.. 10 year is the max I want to wait to be in a green..:cheers1:
do I think singapore property in bubble? - No
Can prices dip? - Sure.
Will it dip? - God knows.
All one can do is analyse and take a stance if they want to take the risk or not..
My stance is sg prices are not in bubble given singapore economy.. but they are in bubble given global economy..
Now all it boils down to is, will SG economy get impacted due to global weakness?
So surely am waiting for a dip.. 10-15% dip will make it attractive to me..
If that doesn't happen.. no worries.. there are always other opportunities in world :D
stalingrad
04-08-11, 15:23
My question was "Does rental drives value of property or value of property drives rental" not rental yield.
Does anyone have an example of 2 side by size projects, one LH one FH and both are about the same size and age. Would be nice to make a comparison,
LH properties would have higher rental yield than FH ones. very simple. since LH properties provide shorter streams of rental income, the owners would demand that rental yield be higher.
another way of looking at this. bother FH and LH properties command the same rent. Thus, the rental yield of the LH properties would be higher since LH properties have lower capital value.
stalingrad
04-08-11, 15:25
hey what's this obsession with AV ? does this in any way affect your life ;) ?
AV as in what?
Are you a naughty boy today?
thomastansb
04-08-11, 15:32
Which also explains property can just hold and rent out. 15% drop say in 3 years before recovering will just even out if you were to rent out for 3 years. Anyway, who knows when the next crash might be. 1 month or in 10 years time, no one knows.
what you mean by long term? 50 years?
Everyone has diff notion of long term..You may intend to die and leave your "great property investment" for you childrens to profit from..
You seem to be among the group who believe they can buy and property will always rise.. I dont belong to that group.. if it rises in 50 years time..its of no use for me.. 10 year is the max I want to wait to be in a green..:cheers1:
do I think singapore property in bubble? - No
Can prices dip? - Sure.
Will it dip? - God knows.
All one can do is analyse and take a stance if they want to take the risk or not..
My stance is sg prices are not in bubble given singapore economy.. but they are in bubble given global economy..
Now all it boils down to is, will SG economy get impacted due to global weakness?
So surely am waiting for a dip.. 10-15% dip will make it attractive to me..
If that doesn't happen.. no worries.. there are always other opportunities in world :D
1. How is Annual Value (AV) determined?
A) Buildings
The AV is the estimated annual rent of your property if it were to be rented out, excluding the furniture, furnishings and maintenance fees. It is determined after analysing the rents of similar or comparable properties. The basis of determining the AV is the same whether the property is rented out at high or low rental rates, owner-occupied or left vacant.
Illustration (A):
Estimated market rent of your flat is $1,000 per month
Annual Value is: $1,000 x 12 = $12,000
*Property Tax payable is derived by subsequently applying the relevant tax rate (%) on the AV.
B) Land and Development Site
The Annual Value is determined at 5% of its estimated freehold market value.
Illustration (B):
The market value of your land is $1,000,000
Annual Value is: 5% x $1,000,000 = $50,000
C) More specialised properties
Certain categories of properties (such as hotels, ports, refineries, etc.) may be assessed using a statutory formula or prescribed methods.
For some properties (such as petrochemical and power plants, etc.) with no rental evidence, valuation methods using costs and receipts may be used to estimate the market rent.
http://www.iras.gov.sg/irashome/default.aspx
1. How is Annual Value (AV) determined?
A) Buildings
The AV is the estimated annual rent of your property if it were to be rented out, excluding the furniture, furnishings and maintenance fees. It is determined after analysing the rents of similar or comparable properties. The basis of determining the AV is the same whether the property is rented out at high or low rental rates, owner-occupied or left vacant.
Illustration (A):
Estimated market rent of your flat is $1,000 per month
Annual Value is: $1,000 x 12 = $12,000
*Property Tax payable is derived by subsequently applying the relevant tax rate (%) on the AV.
B) Land and Development Site
The Annual Value is determined at 5% of its estimated freehold market value.
Illustration (B):
The market value of your land is $1,000,000
Annual Value is: 5% x $1,000,000 = $50,000
C) More specialised properties
Certain categories of properties (such as hotels, ports, refineries, etc.) may be assessed using a statutory formula or prescribed methods.
For some properties (such as petrochemical and power plants, etc.) with no rental evidence, valuation methods using costs and receipts may be used to estimate the market rent.
http://www.iras.gov.sg/irashome/default.aspx
This PDF will give you more insight into AV and also the FAQ.
http://www.iras.gov.sg/pv_obj_cache/pv_obj_id_A242C97746569BD48C504E73D3E24C4E3D930200/filename/investorsguidetopropertytaxamended.pdf
Hi Jadey, I don't know why you keep directing questions at me when there are so many experts that have more than adequately answered your questions.
I have dutifully tried to answer all your questions for so many pages that this has evolved into another matter of rental vs value. Some people are starting to call me illogical (apparently having not read the background of how all this started)
So can you finally tell me why you refuse to accept the way AV is calculated or how some people derive rental yield?
And can you also reveal what has your line of questiong (wrt rental vs value) has got to do with AV and rental yield? You have promised me earlier that you'll get to it after I answered your questions.
Cheers!
Hi Jadey, I don't know why you keep directing questions at me when there are so many experts that have more than adequately answered your questions.
I have dutifully tried to answer all your questions for so many pages that this has evolved into another matter of rental vs value. Some people are starting to call me illogical (apparently having not read the background of how all this started)
So can you finally tell me why you refuse to accept the way AV is calculated or how some people derive rental yield?
And can you also reveal what has your line of questiong (wrt rental vs value) has got to do with AV and rental yield? You have promised me earlier that you'll get to it after I answered your questions.
Cheers!
Hi, Howgozit, just give yourself a break. Really no need to linger on the property tax issue. Until you confess that property tax is determined by property value, there is no end to it. But then IRAS may sue you for misrepresentation so why don't we call it a day on this one?
Hi, Howgozit, just give yourself a break. Really no need to linger on the property tax issue. Until you confess that property tax is determined by property value, there is no end to it. But then IRAS may sue you for misrepresentation so why don't we call it a day on this one?
Agreed.
This is wasting bandwidth. I'll refrain from further comments on this. Apologies if any of my postings caused offence to anyone. Cheers!
hey what's this obsession with AV ? does this in any way affect your life ;) ?
AMK, I think this forum is too serious for people like us.....
;)
Why dont just discuss whether the debt problem will bring us lower mortgage rates or not.
Spain and Italy may be next in the firing squad after Greece and Portugal in the EU to need loads of cash! Hmmm... one by one these countries are shouting for attention... :beats-me-man:
Why dont just discuss whether the debt problem will bring us lower mortgage rates or not.
Short end of the SOR is low as it is. Probably 1 year SOR might head lower.
We are not moving anywhere, we are still debating if rental drives the value of property or vice versa.
I do think that value in the property drives rental because if tenants or investors doesn't see value in the property, then you would be able to command high rental.
Rental is just one of the many contributing factors to the market value of the property. There are many other impt factors such as lh/fh, design, condition, layout, environment, location, view, high/low floor etc:)
Value do not drive rental:2cents:
thomastansb
04-08-11, 23:29
I already ignore him/her. He/she is not interested to read anyway so don't waste energy.
Talking about Italy, they are really in deep shit. Debt to GDP is killing them. I give them at most 2 years. Greece already in grave so just ignore Greece. Personally, I think Italy is in deeper shit than Spain or Ireland now. No thanks to their excessive crazy borrowing. And also, their tourism is falling due to the frequent strikes and working attitude.
Agreed.
This is wasting bandwidth. I'll refrain from further comments on this. Apologies if any of my postings caused offence to anyone. Cheers!
I already ignore him/her. He/she is not interested to read anyway so don't waste energy.
Talking about Italy, they are really in deep shit. Debt to GDP is killing them. I give them at most 2 years. Greece already in grave so just ignore Greece. Personally, I think Italy is in deeper shit than Spain or Ireland now. No thanks to their excessive crazy borrowing. And also, their tourism is falling due to the frequent strikes and working attitude.
But its really interesting now.. unchartered territory..
world is flushed with so much liquidity that nobody knows where to put money to..
Its funny watching CNBC now..Bank charging client for cash deposit now..:doh:
Swiss also thinking of taxing people if put money is Switzerland.. noone wants to have cash anymore :D
Is Deflation scenerio really possible? That would be a real shit..
Can't even run for cover now :beats-me-man:
But its really interesting now.. unchartered territory..
world is flushed with so much liquidity that nobody knows where to put money to..
Its funny watching CNBC now..Bank charging client for cash deposit now..:doh:
Swiss also thinking of taxing people if put money is Switzerland.. noone wants to have cash anymore :D
Is Deflation scenerio really possible? That would be a real shit..
Can't even run for cover now :beats-me-man:
We should be grateful of the 0.3% int rate for scb esaver?
Euro, usd are devaluing and likely to continue in near term. So, inflation is more likely than deflation?
We should be grateful of the 0.3% int rate for scb esaver?
Euro, usd are devaluing and likely to continue in near term. So, inflation is more likely than deflation?
Euro ,USD devaluation... should cause Inflation..defaltion scare os cause of scared people..everyone running for cover whereever they can..
Lot of liquidity in system..put everyone want to hide and sit on cash.. :doh:
Praobably this time the scare is real..not the one caused by liquidity issue..but due to growth..
People are realizing that there is no real growth but just the fake growth created by FED..
Everyone knows FED will do QE3 in a month or two... still people scared and runnign for cover? :beats-me-man:
Really difficult to do any trade now.. time to sit on whatever you have a wait
thomastansb
05-08-11, 00:43
Well, the good thing is you can't have deflation in the whole world. That is not possible. With US printing so much money, I don't believe they will hit deflation. Maybe Singapore already in infact stage of deflation. Not a bad thing actually. $1.20 to USD $1.
But its really interesting now.. unchartered territory..
world is flushed with so much liquidity that nobody knows where to put money to..
Its funny watching CNBC now..Bank charging client for cash deposit now..:doh:
Swiss also thinking of taxing people if put money is Switzerland.. noone wants to have cash anymore :D
Is Deflation scenerio really possible? That would be a real shit..
Can't even run for cover now :beats-me-man:
stocks tumbled again tonight.
is this a warning?
stocks tumbled again tonight.
is this a warning?
Feels like Feb 2008.... Get ready for a 700 pts DOW drop in a day. Might not happen, but better to be prepared for it.
thomastansb
05-08-11, 01:20
US is happily clearing their debt at the expense of other countries - especially China. They are really good. I think they are coming back strong. I am more worried for Europe. Those PIGS are just delaying their death and the more they delay, the more severe will be their death.
Feels like Feb 2008.... Get ready for a 700 pts DOW drop in a day. Might not happen, but better to be prepared for it.
The poorer than expected economic data are partly due to exhaustion of QE2 in June 2011. Fed will be forced to go for QE3 in the next few months. Many countries are devaluing their currencies. I'm afraid Singapore might need to weaken the SGD too because by then our exports will be severely affected since other countries' products are cheaper. Note that our inflation is currently held in check by the strong SGD.
The poorer than expected economic data are partly due to exhaustion of QE2 in June 2011. Fed will be forced to go for QE3 in the next few months. Many countries are devaluing their currencies. I'm afraid Singapore might need to weaken the SGD too because by then our exports will be severely affected since other countries' products are cheaper. Note that our inflation is currently held in check by the strong SGD.
That would be very very big thing as MAS will need to change whole policy of currency to control inflation...so dont think that will happen anytime soon...
But thats true... Singapore is becoming a bit of fool by increasing SGD constantly..Its nothing but making Singapore export expensive...
Every punter is making money in SGD/USD trade cause SGD will rise and USD will fall...
If SGD keep rising manufacturing will die a slow death..thats what US/EU wants anyway..push their exports..
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