View Full Version : Condo ground floor units with patio
Hi all,
Want to know your views on ground floor units with patio. Is this a good option to consider instead of getting a landed property.
My children as still schooling and main intent is to experience landed living without compromising on security and availing condo facilities like gym, swimming pool etc. Do the ground floor units with patio have to pay higher maintenance in terms of MCST share value.
Given a choice between landed and ground floor units. What will be your take!!
Cheers
Santro
buttercarp
17-09-11, 20:02
Hi all,
Want to know your views on ground floor units with patio. Is this a good option to consider instead of getting a landed property.
My children as still schooling and main intent is to experience landed living without compromising on security and availing condo facilities like gym, swimming pool etc. Do the ground floor units with patio have to pay higher maintenance in terms of MCST share value.
Given a choice between landed and ground floor units. What will be your take!!
Cheers
Santro
Nope, ground floor units will pay the same amount as the units similar to them without the patio. Eg a 2 BR ground floor unit will pay the same maintenance as a 2BR unit on the upper floor.
Personally I do not like ground floor unit in a condo cos there is lack of privacy and sometimes naughty kids throw things at your house, or kick foot ball into your house. Also some ground floor units face the carpark and there is a problem of pollution.
Maintenance fee : depends on the share value. Normally, ground floor has slightly one share more at times, depend on how big is the PES.
one cent contribution.
1, dun buy ground floor unit of high rise block, sweeping every hour, and very dangerous to use, anything can drop to your PES anytime.
2. make sure the ground floor unit is well covered
3. choose one with the most privacy, including block to block distance
4. preferably have some nice plants and ego ponds in front...that is beautiful.
I hv one unit like that...no sun throughout the year, and my tenant loves it so much for their little kid to run around. Quite a big PES
I saw this 388 Uber at Upper East Coast, PES is 600 sq ft, u will love it, and so ex
Agree on that concern. I intend to look for units a bit away from the noise and crowd like swimming pool and bbq pit.
Was looking around for landed but house hunting is a challenge. Overpriced with run-down interiors.
Nope, ground floor units will pay the same amount as the units similar to them without the patio. Eg a 2 BR ground floor unit will pay the same maintenance as a 2BR unit on the upper floor.
Personally I do not like ground floor unit in a condo cos there is lack of privacy and sometimes naughty kids throw things at your house, or kick foot ball into your house. Also some ground floor units face the carpark and there is a problem of pollution.
Ground floor units at 8cy are pretty nice....have gardens in front and at backyard....:D
Thanks. Do you think developments like shaughnessy is a good choice.
Maintenance fee : depends on the share value. Normally, ground floor has slightly one share more at times, depend on how big is the PES.
one cent contribution.
1, dun buy ground floor unit of high rise block, sweeping every hour, and very dangerous to use, anything can drop to your PES anytime.
2. make sure the ground floor unit is well covered
3. choose one with the most privacy, including block to block distance
4. preferably have some nice plants and ego ponds in front...that is beautiful.
I hv one unit like that...no sun throughout the year, and my tenant loves it so much for their little kid to run around. Quite a big PES
I saw this 388 Uber at Upper East Coast, PES is 600 sq ft, u will love it, and so ex
buttercarp
17-09-11, 20:22
Maintenance fee : depends on the share value. Normally, ground floor has slightly one share more at times, depend on how big is the PES.
one cent contribution.
1, dun buy ground floor unit of high rise block, sweeping every hour, and very dangerous to use, anything can drop to your PES anytime.
2. make sure the ground floor unit is well covered
3. choose one with the most privacy, including block to block distance
4. preferably have some nice plants and ego ponds in front...that is beautiful.
I hv one unit like that...no sun throughout the year, and my tenant loves it so much for their little kid to run around. Quite a big PES
I saw this 388 Uber at Upper East Coast, PES is 600 sq ft, u will love it, and so ex
Agree with you.
Once a knife fell and landed on the balcony of the 1st floor at my development.
So if you have a ground unit, it is very important for it to be well covered.
Covering of PES is a tricky one. One of my friend wanted to do it but the Condo Mgt oppose.
Agree with you.
Once a knife fell and landed on the balcony of the 1st floor at my development.
So if you have a ground unit, it is very important for it to be well covered.
my 1 cent.
When you open your refuse chute, you will get the full waft of the rubbish contributed by the whole column of your upstair neighbours living above you.
my 1 cent.
When you open your refuse chute, you will get the full waft of the rubbish contributed by the whole column of your upstair neighbours living above you.
Thanks for highlighting
the project shall hv basement carpark, and the rubbish chute is landed at the basement...this is important, dun buy ground floor unit and the rubbish all ended at ground floor...also just buy 5 story height, not so much rubbish
I like the idea of central rubbish chute outside the unit, like euhabitat...and loving ground floor with higher ceiling....and some units are like having their private pool outside the PES
Can consider cluster house or town house if you want security and facility. But not many good choices around.
If you like the additional open space, penthouse will be nice too.
Penthouse, I suppose will have a higher monthly maintenance.
Can consider cluster house or town house if you want security and facility. But not many good choices around.
If you like the additional open space, penthouse will be nice too.
buttercarp
17-09-11, 21:46
Penthouse, I suppose will have a higher monthly maintenance.
Yup, but if the development is large, may be the same or slightly more.
The feel of living in a penthouse or the highest floor can be euphoric especially if it is high floor and good facing!
The extra is worth it.
Thats a good point to note. Cheers..Have to start my hunt soon.
Thanks for highlighting
the project shall hv basement carpark, and the rubbish chute is landed at the basement...this is important, dun buy ground floor unit and the rubbish all ended at ground floor...also just buy 5 story height, not so much rubbish
I like the idea of central rubbish chute outside the unit, like euhabitat...and loving ground floor with higher ceiling....and some units are like having their private pool outside the PES
Penthouse better than landed or unit with patio??:confused:
Yup, but if the development is large, may be the same or slightly more.
The feel of living in a penthouse or the highest floor can be euphoric especially if it is high floor and good facing!
The extra is worth it.
buttercarp
17-09-11, 22:07
Penthouse better than landed or unit with patio??:confused:
All things being equal...... don't talk about being practical in terms of cost...
I like penthouse best, followed by landed, last is unit with patio.
victorchoo
17-09-11, 23:12
My sister stays in a semi D. She mended her leaking roof recently for $20k.
buttercarp
17-09-11, 23:18
My sister stays in a semi D. She mended her leaking roof recently for $20k.
How many years has she been staying there?
If you stay in a landed house, you should put aside some cash every month in anticipation of repairs.
If you are in a condo you pay monthly maintenance hence don't feel the pinch.
Eg if maintenance is $300 per month, one year it is $3600, 10 years it will be $36000.
So if your sister has been staying in the semi d for more than 10 years, then the repairs are still cheaper than if she was staying in a condo.
Penthouse better than landed or unit with patio??:confused:
It also depends on what type of landed. Small built up with limited land space in not so desirable location...I'd rather stay penthouse or patio unit.
Doesnt the ground floor condo units with pes have security issues? Other condo units' dubious maids or guests can easily climb in!
My sister stays in a semi D. She mended her leaking roof recently for $20k.Staying in condo will also have repairs to be made after staying for 10 years or more! :tongue3:
Penthouse better than landed or unit with patio??:confused:In my personal view, single storey penthouse is indeed better than landed or unit with patio. The biggest drawback is probably the fact that you own that piece of land for landed vs shared ownership for penthouse. Note the following advantages for single storey penthouse over landed.
1. No wasted space on staircases (same case for cluster houses and townhouses too).
2. View can be splendid chosen wisely for penthouse.
3. No headaches for most repairs (done by condo management) and will probably not have ceiling leaking problems (no one above you already). If staying in landed, you do every sxxt thing, from flooding in the backyard to cleaning the leaves in the front yard which is a chronic and persistent occurrence.
4. Has security for all condos (already included in monthly maintenance fee) (and not talking about the lousy guards who reside in some development) while landed will have to pay a lot extra for security.
5. For family with teenage kids, you will not have situations when you return and realised that you kids are actually at home but locked inside their upstairs room without making any noise.... (see too much of such family situations). Single storey will be a friendlier configuration for family togetherness (just a personal observation).
6. Can enjoy the facilities available. Landed can also have personal swimming pool and gym room but that will require a much larger landed area which equates to higher cost.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Penthouse better than landed or unit with patio??:confused:Personally I do not like ground floor condos with patio. Pay for a space which is subjected to your neighbors' daily contributions. If its PES, it'll be better! Plus all the other disadvantages mentioned in earlier posts! :cheers1:
In my personal view, single storey penthouse is indeed better than landed or unit with patio. The biggest drawback is probably the fact that you own that piece of land for landed vs shared ownership for penthouse. Note the following advantages for single storey penthouse over landed.
1. No wasted space on staircases (same case for cluster houses and townhouses too).
2. View can be splendid chosen wisely for penthouse.
3. No headaches for most repairs (done by condo management) and will probably not have ceiling leaking problems (no one above you already). If staying in landed, you do every sxxt thing, from flooding in the backyard to cleaning the leaves in the front yard which is a chronic and persistent occurrence.
4. Has security for all condos (already included in monthly maintenance fee) (and not talking about the lousy guards who reside in some development) while landed will have to pay a lot extra for security.
5. For family with teenage kids, you will not have situations when you return and realised that you kids are actually at home but locked inside their upstairs room without making any noise.... (see too much of such family situations). Single storey will be a friendlier configuration for family togetherness (just a personal observation).
6. Can enjoy the facilities available. Landed can also have personal swimming pool and gym room but that will require a much larger landed area which equates to higher cost.
Just my 2 cents worth.
I think, there are several issues associated with PH u might hv overlooked.
Most PH, come with big terrace, big balcony, with the GFA, all these are not covered. Very very hot, and bright. Most of my frn staying PHs suffering from this.
Dun presum no leak problem for PH, as the roof top expose to hot and cold more than any other floors...the leak problem is even worst...not to forget u have pump on top of the roof...
The rain water flash down from roof top will land in your terrace, balcony.
Most condo, dun allow windor grills, so the entire place need to be closed if u hv young kids
Thats a good point to note. Cheers..Have to start my hunt soon.
I drove around Sg these 3 weeks and saw many many properties
Most of the new launches come with ground floor PES
some quoted very reasonable, but some are sky high
check more first before signing
I drove around Sg these 3 weeks and saw many many properties
Most of the new launches come with ground floor PES
some quoted very reasonable, but some are sky high
check more first before signing
Luxurie ground flr units with own baby pool is nice with relatively low psf
However would expect litters in your pool
For patio units, it is either you love it or hate it. If you are an outdoor person and you have guests who enjoy outdoor having a cup of coffee or some drinks, then patio is a good place to unwind. Patio do give you a resort feel. However, if you are an indoor person who on the aircon once you stepped in the house, then patio is a place whereby you will hardly go and most likely ends up as a storage place. As in all cases, ground floor tends to be noisier and has less privacy. But in recent lauches, due to the close proximity of the neighbouring blocks, I think ground floor units will give better privacy and view, as compared to looking into your neighbours' rooms.
If you are concern about littering from upstairs, there are projects whereby there are ledges above that extend to cover the patios. These units are very well sought after. For such projects, never get the second floor units as you will get the "litter" view and is difficult to clean the ledges.
Furthermore, once you sell your condo, kiss goodbye to the money (sinking fund, in particular. )
How many years has she been staying there?
If you stay in a landed house, you should put aside some cash every month in anticipation of repairs.
If you are in a condo you pay monthly maintenance hence don't feel the pinch.
Eg if maintenance is $300 per month, one year it is $3600, 10 years it will be $36000.
So if your sister has been staying in the semi d for more than 10 years, then the repairs are still cheaper than if she was staying in a condo.
Just to add to Laguna's post which may have some similarities. I thought penthouse do have problems like:
a. Since the single-storey penthouse is one storey. it will span across a few units below it. Owner will have to make good leakage of water into unit below that could be due to wear and tear. It is not from the management fund but own pocket.
b. Will have good view especially above 30 storeys but also get a lot more sun than a landed as it is exposed to the entire sky and no shading from nearby building. Unit will be really hot at night with the re-radiation from the heated wall.
c. Larger volume of air to be cooled down as it is normally higher ceiling.
d. Those with personal swimming pool can also add to the water leakage problem. Roof waterproofing membrane is usually guarantee for only 10 years. What happen if you are still staying there after 10 years and have all these water leakage problem.
There are lot more issues....
In my personal view, single storey penthouse is indeed better than landed or unit with patio. The biggest drawback is probably the fact that you own that piece of land for landed vs shared ownership for penthouse. Note the following advantages for single storey penthouse over landed.
1. No wasted space on staircases (same case for cluster houses and townhouses too).
2. View can be splendid chosen wisely for penthouse.
3. No headaches for most repairs (done by condo management) and will probably not have ceiling leaking problems (no one above you already). If staying in landed, you do every sxxt thing, from flooding in the backyard to cleaning the leaves in the front yard which is a chronic and persistent occurrence.
4. Has security for all condos (already included in monthly maintenance fee) (and not talking about the lousy guards who reside in some development) while landed will have to pay a lot extra for security.
5. For family with teenage kids, you will not have situations when you return and realised that you kids are actually at home but locked inside their upstairs room without making any noise.... (see too much of such family situations). Single storey will be a friendlier configuration for family togetherness (just a personal observation).
6. Can enjoy the facilities available. Landed can also have personal swimming pool and gym room but that will require a much larger landed area which equates to higher cost.
Just my 2 cents worth.
The penthouse wont come cheap but its the shiok highrise lifestyle that is attractive.
At the price of penthouse, can get landed but then very hard to find landed which is near amenities.
There is a new development by UOL coming near Bedok reservoir, yet to be launched. low rise condo with reservoir view and near new MRT line. Looks interesting.:)
I think, there are several issues associated with PH u might hv overlooked.
Most PH, come with big terrace, big balcony, with the GFA, all these are not covered. Very very hot, and bright. Most of my frn staying PHs suffering from this.
Dun presum no leak problem for PH, as the roof top expose to hot and cold more than any other floors...the leak problem is even worst...not to forget u have pump on top of the roof...
The rain water flash down from roof top will land in your terrace, balcony.
Most condo, dun allow windor grills, so the entire place need to be closed if u hv young kids
Well, not all penthouses have huge wasted space. These are mainly those double storey penthouses where the top floor has 1 or 2 bedrooms with a huge space patio or something. I personally don't like that type of penthouse. Its really hot. Clovers actually has a single storey penthouse which is not on the top floor therefore there is no direct heat from the sun as mentioned by some forummers here. All else being equal, for every problem associated with penthouse living, there is one associated with landed. Its really a matter of choice and preference. I was looking at landed at one stage of my life but decided on PC instead because of the lure of the facilities for my young children. Your choice must ultimately suit your family dynamics. Cheers! :cheers1:
d. Those with personal swimming pool can also add to the water leakage problem. Roof waterproofing membrane is usually guarantee for only 10 years. What happen if you are still staying there after 10 years and have all these water leakage problem.
There are lot more issues....
I personally do not like personal swimming pool coz maintenace cost is self imposed. I'd rather pay maintenance fee and enjoy the common facilites. Its not as if I use the pool everyday and I die die must have complete privacy in the pool. That lifestyle belongs to the super rich! I don't fall in that category! :tongue3:
Penthouse not on top floor?
Well, not all penthouses have huge wasted space. These are mainly those double storey penthouses where the top floor has 1 or 2 bedrooms with a huge space patio or something. I personally don't like that type of penthouse. Its really hot. Clovers actually has a single storey penthouse which is not on the top floor therefore there is no direct heat from the sun as mentioned by some forummers here. All else being equal, for every problem associated with penthouse living, there is one associated with landed. Its really a matter of choice and preference. I was looking at landed at one stage of my life but decided on PC instead because of the lure of the facilities for my young children. Your choice must ultimately suit your family dynamics. Cheers! :cheers1:
Penthouse not on top floor?
That's a first because definition of PH is the unit on top floor right...
Anyway my advice on ground floor units - look for those that are half a storey higher than ground level - you'll enjoy the convenience of ground floor (walk to facilities, less danger for kids) but with privacy.
The major drawback of ground floor units is no privacy but an elevated unit can solve that.
Another advice: Stay clear of the flood prone zone. Unfortunately, with global warming, the sea level is rising. This will affect our drainage system in future. :beats-me-man:
That's a first because definition of PH is the unit on top floor right...
Anyway my advice on ground floor units - look for those that are half a storey higher than ground level - you'll enjoy the convenience of ground floor (walk to facilities, less danger for kids) but with privacy.
The major drawback of ground floor units is no privacy but an elevated unit can solve that.
Well, not all penthouses have huge wasted space. These are mainly those double storey penthouses where the top floor has 1 or 2 bedrooms with a huge space patio or something. I personally don't like that type of penthouse. Its really hot. Clovers actually has a single storey penthouse which is not on the top floor therefore there is no direct heat from the sun as mentioned by some forummers here. All else being equal, for every problem associated with penthouse living, there is one associated with landed. Its really a matter of choice and preference. I was looking at landed at one stage of my life but decided on PC instead because of the lure of the facilities for my young children. Your choice must ultimately suit your family dynamics. Cheers! :cheers1:
some of the double-storey PHs from current new launches come with upper storey totally devoid of any livable space i.e. they are pure roof terraces to open sky. owners have to use their own imagination to do up the open space for their own purposes e.g. BBQ, otherwise after awhile u wont even bother to go up there haha.
PHs shld be highrise preferably above 20 storeys or more, then it will be very windy and not hot.
How to be not hot when you are at the top of the world? It is windy, glaring and hot.:scared-3:
some of the double-storey PHs from current new launches come with upper storey totally devoid of any livable space i.e. they are pure roof terraces to open sky. owners have to use their own imagination to do up the open space for their own purposes e.g. BBQ, otherwise after awhile u wont even bother to go up there haha.
PHs shld be highrise preferably above 20 storeys or more, then it will be very windy and not hot.
buttercarp
18-09-11, 14:32
How to be not hot when you are at the top of the world? It is windy, glaring and hot.:scared-3:
It can be very windy if you are high up with an open facing.
Apart from the roof terrace, unless you transform it into a garden, the rest of the house should be cool.
But the roof terrace is excellent for sunning pillows and mattresses.
It is good for drying chinese herbs and curry powder too.
Can even install thermal PV panel to tap the heat for warm water and electrical power for the garden lights. Kids can fly kite up there.
It can be very windy if you are high up with an open facing.
Apart from the roof terrace, unless you transform it into a garden, the rest of the house should be cool.
But the roof terrace is excellent for sunning pillows and mattresses.
It is good for drying chinese herbs and curry powder too.
How to be not hot when you are at the top of the world? It is windy, glaring and hot.:scared-3:
i am at 29 storey, is not hot leh... aircons severely underutilised
of cos go stand in the unsheltered roof terrace at noon or afternoon is hot lah
buttercarp
18-09-11, 14:42
Can even install thermal PV panel to tap the heat for warm water and electrical power for the garden lights. Kids can fly kite up there.
I was actually thinking of tapping heat.
How do you do that?
Where can I get the thermal panel and is it expensive?
Yes, my kids sometimes fly kite up in the roof terrace although it is not too comfortable cos my roof terrace is small about the size of a bedroom.
But I let my guinea pigs out in the roof terrace to exercise.
There are specialist whom you can consult. This is an integrated which has a high initial cost. Payback period is rather long like 15-20 years. My house have two roof terraces that are hardly used.
I was actually thinking of tapping heat.
How do you do that?
Where can I get the thermal panel and is it expensive?
Yes, my kids sometimes fly kite up in the roof terrace although it is not too comfortable cos my roof terrace is small about the size of a bedroom.
But I let my guinea pigs out in the roof terrace to exercise.
buttercarp
18-09-11, 14:52
There are specialist whom you can consult. This is an integrated which has a high initial cost. Payback period is rather long like 15-20 years. My house have two roof terraces that are hardly used.
Oops.... so long.
Maybe i will just put buckets of water upstairs and use the water to bathe at night.
Or build a bathtub in the roof terrace and bathe there at night!
nobrainer32007
18-09-11, 17:17
Hmmm...can tell wat time u normally bath at night?;)
Oops.... so long.
Maybe i will just put buckets of water upstairs and use the water to bathe at night.
Or build a bathtub in the roof terrace and bathe there at night!
From my own PH experience you trade off being on top of the world (your condo at least) for additional heat - the heat collected by the roof terrace has to go somewhere after all, and while the wind mitigates the effect a little, comparatively the unit right below yours is still cooler.
I would say if you dun need PH best to go for 2nd or 3rd highest unit
buttercarp
18-09-11, 19:46
Hmmm...can tell wat time u normally bath at night?;)
Aiya.....I seldom bathe one lah.
From my own PH experience you trade off being on top of the world (your condo
at least) for additional heat - the heat collected by the roof terrace has to go
somewhere after all, and while the wind mitigates the effect a little,
comparatively the unit right below yours is still cooler.
Not true for my unit.
My roof terrace is directly above the master bedroom, but I don't feel any difference in temperature in the master bedroom and other parts of the house.
Penthouse not on top floor?The definition of PH may refer to the unit right at the top but I was referring to the single storey unit that lapse over 2 units below. That is also a PH in most projects. However, for Clover, it was actually a single unit at 38th floor and a double storey occupying the 39th and 40th floor or something like that. :cheers1: Not the expert in definitions!
I was actually thinking of tapping heat.
How do you do that?
Where can I get the thermal panel and is it expensive?
Yes, my kids sometimes fly kite up in the roof terrace although it is not too comfortable cos my roof terrace is small about the size of a bedroom.
But I let my guinea pigs out in the roof terrace to exercise.Highly dangerous to fly kites at roof top. From my last experience with kite flying, I need to run a bit to get the kite up. You may well run off the building if you are careless! :scared-3:
Thermal panels are pretty expensive. You can go to punggol hdb and take a few home for personal use. Just don't get caught! :spliff:
Oops.... so long.
Maybe i will just put buckets of water upstairs and use the water to bathe at night.
Or build a bathtub in the roof terrace and bathe there at night!You must take care. Bathing at night in open spaces may land you with a cold! :eek:
buttercarp
18-09-11, 23:14
Highly dangerous to fly kites at roof top. From my last experience with kite flying, I need to run a bit to get the kite up. You may well run off the building if you are careless! :scared-3:
Thermal panels are pretty expensive. You can go to punggol hdb and take a few home for personal use. Just don't get caught! :spliff:
Agree with you that it can be dangerous, the kids did it once or twice when it was extremely windy but not fun cos space is limited.
Punggol..... as in One Treelodge?
My brother's flat is there.
You must take care. Bathing at night in open spaces may land you with a cold!
:eek:
Isn't it same as swimming at night?
Bluwater 2 by novelty, d17,18 in jalan loyang besar, has v nice gnd unit with generous patio.
Esp the corner unit
Agree with you that it can be dangerous, the kids did it once or twice when it was extremely windy but not fun cos space is limited.
Punggol..... as in One Treelodge?
My brother's flat is there.There are many projects there where the govt will install panels for a green precinct! :spliff:
Isn't it same as swimming at night?LOL! Swimming is when your body is exercising so its working out. Less likely to get a cold. Bathing just does nothing more than singing and scrubbing. Won't feel much working out so will get cold. LOL!
Bluwater 2 by novelty, d17,18 in jalan loyang besar, has v nice gnd unit with generous patio.
Esp the corner unitThat project is by the edge of the island. Don't even have bus to take you home or only one bus service (can't remember)! :doh:
no point going to a ulu place..would prefer to go landed. :)
That project is by the edge of the island. Don't even have bus to take you home or only one bus service (can't remember)! :doh:
How about Seletaris condo with patio ? Pls advise what is avg price
Tks
Good house
09-07-13, 18:29
Chance upon this old thread. :)
Hi bro Blaze1234, u may want to take a look at this thread:D
Chance upon this old thread. :)
Hi bro Blaze1234, u may want to take a look at this thread:D
hello..
thanks for the thread link.....;)
If there are many units above you, and you have a big patio.
Is gonna be a big headache. I have experienced it myself. Lots of cig butt.. rubbish.. tissue.. etc.. coming from above units. Can't even know from which unit..
Sometime I ended up as a cleaner to clear it:doh:
If there are many units above you, and you have a big patio.
Is gonna be a big headache. I have experienced it myself. Lots of cig butt.. rubbish.. tissue.. etc.. coming from above units. Can't even know from which unit..
Sometime I ended up as a cleaner to clear it:doh:
Thanks for your reminder, good brother. Someone offered a unit with huge patio to me recently, think I gotta reconsider liao :)
LOL! Swimming is when your body is exercising so its working out. Less likely to get a cold. Bathing just does nothing more than singing and scrubbing. Won't feel much working out so will get cold. LOL!
Ah! So it is like having real sex compared to PCC alone. One is working out the entire body, the other only working out your arm muscle.
That project is by the edge of the island. Don't even have bus to take you home or only one bus service (can't remember)! :doh:
bro when spore got 7 million people u going to love that kind of place:cheers1:
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