View Full Version : An entire nation held hostage by the property market
http://theonlinecitizen.com/2011/11/an-entire-nation-held-hostage-by-the-property-market/
Lots of fallacious reasoning and false assumptions. I leave it up to you to think through....any comments?
i would disagree. 200-300k brand new flats are still attainable dreams with some hard work.
but some of the new generation of youngsters expect that private condos should remain within their reach whilst they take a few holidays a year.
The usual government-bashing articles... take with a fist of salt.
The usual government-bashing articles... take with a fist of salt.
yeah, why should anyone feel they are held ransom, there are options. For the lower income families I agree they could use more subsidies. but those families with couples of combined income of $5000 or more, they really have to look at their spending habits. the world is not going to slow down for anyone, whether they like it or not.
Actually the articles did not say anything really wrong... I thought the writer has a point...
land prices may drive rentals higher but that's provided there's demand at higher rentals, otherwise, the landlords are merely speculating on capital appreciation, and without rentals driving higher, they'll eventually fall back to earth.
If government price bto at low prices and hawker centers rental at cheap prices, sure will be able check the increase in prices.... Theproblem is the government. Also want to make money ineveyrhting...
If government price bto at low prices and hawker centers rental at cheap prices, sure will be able check the increase in prices.... Theproblem is the government. Also want to make money ineveyrhting...
actually i don't think hawker rentals are very high, it's probably those privatised ones that are high...
as for BTOs, i'm not sure why people think they are very high. If they went punggol or sengkang or buangkok, it's not that bad right? Die die must be near town? if they say DBSS, then I'm inclined to agree.
If government price bto at low prices and hawker centers rental at cheap prices, sure will be able check the increase in prices.... Theproblem is the government. Also want to make money ineveyrhting...
Wrt to hawker centre rentals.... can't entirely blame the government lah.. it is the greed of the hawker stall owners. Many hawker stall owners sublet their stalls to other hawkers instead of running the stalls themselves often at ridiculously inflated prices (esp in popular hawker centres). Hawkers in turn pass on the cost to their customers.
This rampant in Singapore
If the govt don't earn, how to have money to pay enough to get good people to work in the civil service, how to have money to build good train, road, water, and air infrastructure and yet maintain current low income tax and corporate tax regime? The money must come from somewhere right? :beats-me-man:
If government price bto at low prices and hawker centers rental at cheap prices, sure will be able check the increase in prices.... Theproblem is the government. Also want to make money ineveyrhting...
If the govt don't earn, how to have money to pay enough to get good people to work in the civil service, how to have money to build good train, road, water, and air infrastructure and yet maintain current low income tax and corporate tax regime? The money must come from somewhere right? :beats-me-man:
Yes that's how wealth gets redistributed. The key is how to narrow the income gap rather than stop the wealthier from getting wealthier while waiting lower income to catch up. Economically not viable. LKY also mentioned it in his book "Hard Truths" which most people don't like to hear : the government will never stop someone from becoming richer.
Yes that's how wealth gets redistributed. The key is how to narrow the income gap rather than stop the wealthier from getting wealthier while waiting lower income to catch up. Economically not viable. LKY also mentioned it in his book "Hard Truths" which most people don't like to hear : the government will never stop someone from becoming richer.
LKY is correct. Why should he if one is capable within the establised framework in Singapore. That' s the key to meritocracy. This is what motivates one to perform. To do otherwise will discourage the truely talented to stay in Singapore.
Allthepies
17-11-11, 06:44
http://theonlinecitizen.com/2011/11/an-entire-nation-held-hostage-by-the-property-market/
Lots of fallacious reasoning and false assumptions. I leave it up to you to think through....any comments?
most articles from that website are usually written by complainers and most probably losers too. so i would just ignore them : ) i dont want to become them
Singapore is the best place to own a property/ies!!:D :D
If the govt don't earn, how to have money to pay enough to get good people to work in the civil service, how to have money to build good train, road, water, and air infrastructure and yet maintain current low income tax and corporate tax regime? The money must come from somewhere right? :beats-me-man:
you dunno meh? to cover for the lowering of corporate tax and top income tax, they raised GST lar haha
We need to compare Sg to other countries in Asia in order to draw a fair conclusion.
No matter how, I still grade Sg is one of the best...especially when u compare to HK, TPE, and Shanghai etc in term of jobs, growth, place to stay, and air
I thought the article seems ok. By most accounts, the overall quality of life in SG for middle income & below, has certainly deteriorated over the last 5 years.
This is mostly due to the foreign "talent" policy. I think The Online Citizen is the most balanced site, among the online websites these days.
I thought the article seems ok. By most accounts, the overall quality of life in SG for middle income & below, has certainly deteriorated over the last 5 years.
This is mostly due to the foreign "talent" policy. I think The Online Citizen is the most balanced site, among the online websites these days.
The headline reads
"An entire nation held hostage by the property market"
The author is trying to sensationalise the issue. He is implying that it is a government "conspiracy" to entrap the nation by allowing the property to rise, below is an excerpt from the article
"Singapore is one of the few countries, if not the only country in the world whose government explicitly states that property does not simply provide shelter, but is also an investment, a nest egg, a retirement plan, and an asset that is meant to grow appreciably in value over time.
Is that really logical? A rising stock market is a sign of growing corporate profits, and increasing gross national product. But what forms the foundation of a rising property market? Why should, and how can, a government mandate that property values must always be on the rise, and furthermore, always increase at a respectably fast pace?"
Like I mentioned earlier, I would read TOC and TR with a large dose of salt and use my own judgement. The authors there like to intertwine facts with suppositions for the purpose of government bashing.
Gahmen is ultra-commercial ...just look at say JTC selling of the industrial tranches to Soilbuild and Mapletree Industrial. Now the buyers are raising the rentals to market rate in the next rental cycle.
Nothing wrong - just will add to cost and thus inflation.
Timing also abit off...
If government price bto at low prices and hawker centers rental at cheap prices, sure will be able check the increase in prices.... Theproblem is the government. Also want to make money ineveyrhting...
Like I mentioned earlier, I would read TOC and TR with a large dose of salt and use my own judgement. The authors there like to intertwine facts with suppositions for the purpose of government bashing.
i find more salt in the states times and mediacorpse news .. doctor say dont consume too much. :eek: :cheers1:
i find more salt in the states times and mediacorpse news .. doctor say dont consume too much. :eek: :cheers1:
Yep... that's true too... we have to be careful about what we read.
Gahmen is ultra-commercial ...just look at say JTC selling of the industrial tranches to Soilbuild and Mapletree Industrial. Now the buyers are raising the rentals to market rate in the next rental cycle.
Nothing wrong - just will add to cost and thus inflation.
Timing also abit off...
Yes, too much money is in real estate now, not just residential. Flip through the papers and you see ads of built-up industrial sites "available for rent" from Govt linked property companies.
With Reits pushing up commercial rent like no tomorrow (up to $40-$55 psf depending on size), is it any wonder that our food and other cost are rising rapidly, with no contribution to the "real" economy? Haiz.
Yes, too much money is in real estate now, not just residential. Flip through the papers and you see ads of built-up industrial sites "available for rent" from Govt linked property companies.
With Reits pushing up commercial rent like no tomorrow (up to $40-$55 psf depending on size), is it any wonder that our food and other cost are rising rapidly, with no contribution to the "real" economy? Haiz.
In land-scarce Singapore, it is inevitable. Unless we turn communist, no ruling party can ever prevent the property prices to escalate.
This is the cost of doing business in Singapore. Unfortunately, we are the victims of our own success.
If Indonesia get their act together and Malaysia really "Boleh", Singapore will be in deep Sh-t and people will instead be complaining about property prices falling.
hmm howgozit bro ur thinking very similar to mine :)
TOC standard type of pap bashing article lah. u want more sensational one ? Go TR and read how Temasek pays its employees tens of millions each :scared-4: ;)
ikan bilis
17-11-11, 14:01
... fed's helicopter ben is trying to find all ways to get his property market to kidnap his nation....
... the entire planet now is being held hostage by greece/italy....
hmm.... as for sgp: "An entire nation held hostage by the property market"... => let me worry about that later.... :sleep:
:cool:
yeah, why should anyone feel they are held ransom, there are options. For the lower income families I agree they could use more subsidies. but those families with couples of combined income of $5000 or more, they really have to look at their spending habits. the world is not going to slow down for anyone, whether they like it or not.
Ya, I do think that spending habit is so much depending on which area they are willing to spend. Some prefer to spend on travelling, some on branded goods, some prefer to go to restaurant to enjoy good food, some on cars, some on stock, some prefer to put their money in the bank while some don't mind to buy expensive ppty. This is my :2cents: .
But their life are still certainly better than those in other countries like Malaysia. Isn't it?
I thought the article seems ok. By most accounts, the overall quality of life in SG for middle income & below, has certainly deteriorated over the last 5 years.
This is mostly due to the foreign "talent" policy. I think The Online Citizen is the most balanced site, among the online websites these days.
Actually, they expect more than that: They want govt to make private condos very cheap for them to buy and after they had bought, to make it so expensive so that they can cash out at enormous profit! :doh:
And they didn't see the govt doing that, they say "I sure vote opposition!" :banghead:
i would disagree. 200-300k brand new flats are still attainable dreams with some hard work.
but some of the new generation of youngsters expect that private condos should remain within their reach whilst they take a few holidays a year.
But their life are still certainly better than those in other countries like Malaysia. Isn't it?
Singaporeans' incomes are certainly higher but I am not so sure our lives are better. In any case, why compare to the Malaysians? As a "First World" country, we should be comparing ourselves to the Aussies, the Swiss etc.
In Australia for instance, the rental cost is comparatively lower while the average wages are much higher than Singapore's. This makes for a higher standard of living in general. FD int rates are higher than inflation rate as well. You may say that the Aussies pay higher taxes, but in return, their healthcare is covered while cars and housing are much cheaper.
That said, Singapore still remains a better place for upper middle incomes to earn their money. But for middle income & below, life is a tough struggle, & the Govt has been late to acknowledge that.
devilplate
18-11-11, 08:42
Singaporeans' incomes are certainly higher but I am not so sure our lives are better. In any case, why compare to the Malaysians? As a "First World" country, we should be comparing ourselves to the Aussies, the Swiss etc.
In Australia for instance, the rental cost is comparatively lower while the average wages are much higher than Singapore's. This makes for a higher standard of living in general. FD int rates are higher than inflation rate as well. You may say that the Aussies pay higher taxes, but in return, their healthcare is covered while cars and housing are much cheaper.
That said, Singapore still remains a better place for upper middle incomes to earn their money. But for middle income & below, life is a tough struggle, & the Govt has been late to acknowledge that.
aussie got natural minerals and recources......their govt can afford to haf gd welfare for citizens.....their model wud hf failed singapore terribly if tat was adopted by LKY in the early days
devilplate
18-11-11, 08:43
every country is unique especially singapore....
not as straightforward as we tot it shd be
Ya, I do think that spending habit is so much depending on which area they are willing to spend. Some prefer to spend on travelling, some on branded goods, some prefer to go to restaurant to enjoy good food, some on cars, some on stock, some prefer to put their money in the bank while some don't mind to buy expensive ppty. This is my :2cents: .
Yup. to each his own
Very good piece.
To add to this, our system rewards the young and educated - hence these FT comes in from their high tax systems, work here and then go back to their safety net.
This obviously adds to our GDP but creeps up our cost of living for our less fortunate citizens. The lower and lower mid class Singaporeans are crushed - furiously having to paddle their little legs to keep their heads above water. Get sick or fall behind and you get a mouthful of water.
Singaporeans' incomes are certainly higher but I am not so sure our lives are better. In any case, why compare to the Malaysians? As a "First World" country, we should be comparing ourselves to the Aussies, the Swiss etc.
In Australia for instance, the rental cost is comparatively lower while the average wages are much higher than Singapore's. This makes for a higher standard of living in general. FD int rates are higher than inflation rate as well. You may say that the Aussies pay higher taxes, but in return, their healthcare is covered while cars and housing are much cheaper.
That said, Singapore still remains a better place for upper middle incomes to earn their money. But for middle income & below, life is a tough struggle, & the Govt has been late to acknowledge that.
Direct income tax rate comparisons between "low tax rate" Singapore and "high tax rate" first world countries are but one facade of the whole picture. COE, ERP, GST, etc indirect taxes obviously have to be included. Less obvious are land, healthcare and education costs.
Some people with better knowledge of Canada made these comparisons:
http://sg-quitters.blogspot.com/2011/01/income-tax-singapore-vs-canada.html
http://www.togoparts.com/forum/showthread.php?fid=6&tid=57358
http://www.mrbiao.com/blog/analysis-on-canada-vs-singapore-again-day-94-in-vancouver.html
devilplate
18-11-11, 09:33
Direct income tax rate comparisons between "low tax rate" Singapore and "high tax rate" first world countries are but one facade of the whole picture. COE, ERP, GST, etc indirect taxes obviously have to be included. Less obvious are land, healthcare and education costs.
Some people with better knowledge of Canada made these comparisons:
http://sg-quitters.blogspot.com/2011/01/income-tax-singapore-vs-canada.html
http://www.togoparts.com/forum/showthread.php?fid=6&tid=57358
http://www.mrbiao.com/blog/analysis-on-canada-vs-singapore-again-day-94-in-vancouver.html
in order to make a fair comparision, one must firstly compare whether the countries r similar anot in terms of resources avail, geographic location etc
I know where your're going with this and of course you have a valid point of view. But I reckon you have this view coz you're one of the fortunate Singaporeans (as is I) who is educated/property owning/financially savvy etc.
We're en route to becoming another (almost) Macau where the local citizens are displaced from their own land over time. Not all - just the less savvy/educated/poor/weak.
SG looks shiny and colourful ...live, work and play ...but look closely at the bowels of the lower of our society and you will know. Some choose not to know and care. They justify as trade-offs that must be made...how sad.
in order to make a fair comparision, one must firstly compare whether the countries r similar anot in terms of resources avail, geographic location etc
So what is the solution?
I know where your're going with this and of course you have a valid point of view. But I reckon you have this view coz you're one of the fortunate Singaporeans (as is I) who is educated/property owning/financially savvy etc.
We're en route to becoming another (almost) Macau where the local citizens are displaced from their own land over time. Not all - just the less savvy/educated/poor/weak.
SG looks shiny and colourful ...live, work and play ...but look closely at the bowels of the lower of our society and you will know. Some choose not to know and care. They justify as trade-offs that must be made...how sad.
So what is the solution?
This is my solution on a personal basis, not national. If you are a struggling middle-income earner, dont buy car. Earn & save as much as possible during your time in SG.
When you are in your late forties, migrate to the western countries while you are still economically useful to them. You should get, say Aussie PR first then citizenship, while your wife remains a Singaporean but with Aussie PR. Rent out your HDB flat & collect rental income mthly while in Australia.
You get the best of both world - Savings from Singapore low-tax sys & Aussie or equivalent retirement benefits. Singapore Govt will be more than happy to see the back of you as you age, while the next wave of foreign "talents" replace you, in the name of population rejuvenation.
It's sad but that's the way it is nowadays if you want to make full use of the system.
As my boss tells me, the Govt will not ask you to relocate (minus KBW), but they can, with their policies, force you to come to the same conclusion yourself.
There is no silver bullet.
Some policies/rules require tweaks, some require revamps.
Take housing ...the fundermental concept of HDB is fantastic...great
But some rules can be tweaked ...say 1st timers MOP 5 years ...that's fine, but 2nd timers should be increased to maybe 10 or even 15 years. Coz once these 2nd timer encash this one - they're subject to market forces.
So what is the solution?
Media (our ST/TV stations) also can help.
Reported on Singaporeans going to Malaysia for medical procedures ...give birth in Malaysia ...lol...maybe can also get Malaysian citizenship for the baby next time...
You're right on the using system ...REVERSE FT scheme ...
FT come when they're young, earn $ and go back to safety net.
We mid-age, migrate to safety-net lands after working here...lol
Basically SG is for the young!
As my boss tells me, the Govt will not ask you to relocate (minus KBW), but they can, with their policies, force you to come to the same conclusion yourself.
Agree, there is no silver bullet and policies can be better.
But I can assure you that no matter what is done by the government(under whichever ruling party), we will never be able to match the big western 1st world countries in terms of quality of life.
Our lack of natural resources and geopolitical situation limits what we can do and how far we can go. It is in the country's "DNA", something we can't change.
Since you mentioned Australia I can testify (having lived and worked in Australia for a couple of years) that quality of life is better. Even a cashier at Big W or Target can afford a car and a house with a garage. My gardener was a Vietnamese migrant who owned 2 cars and has 4 kids but registers himself as unemployed to fleece the maximum welfare benefits.
Can Singapore ever be like that? .... Never
There is no silver bullet.
Some policies/rules require tweaks, some require revamps.
Take housing ...the fundermental concept of HDB is fantastic...great
But some rules can be tweaked ...say 1st timers MOP 5 years ...that's fine, but 2nd timers should be increased to maybe 10 or even 15 years. Coz once these 2nd timer encash this one - they're subject to market forces.
I agree and I'm not idealistic to think we can eradicate poverty in SG either. But perhaps our policies have been too pro-aggressive that favours the able/haves. Again that "trade-offs" dilemma.
Another eg. Casinos. Impose $100 levy.
Perhaps we can try max frequency per year per pax...5x 4x, 3x per year? Won't prevent gamblers from gambling but limit their chances to gamble their families wealth away.
Maybe even the Casino operators lobbied against it. So there we have it ...self interest groups and politics.
Not all the best practice or first in class solutions can pass.
Agree, there is no silver bullet and policies can be better.
But I can assure you that no matter what is done by the government(under whichever ruling party), we will never be able to match the big western 1st world countries in terms of quality of life.
Our lack of natural resources and geopolitical situation limits what we can do and how far we can go. It is in the country's "DNA", something we can't change.
Since you mentioned Australia I can testify (having lived and worked in Australia for a couple of years) that quality of life is better. Even a cashier at Big W or Target can afford a car and a house with a garage. My gardener was a Vietnamese migrant who owned 2 cars and has 4 kids but registers himself as unemployed to fleece the maximum welfare benefits.
Can Singapore ever be like that? .... Never
I am against casinos for the philosophy of it but can't help but agree with the business aspect of it.
Wrt the restriction of Singaporeans and the imposition of the entry levy to casinos, I am of the opinion that we do away with all of that. It is about the freedom of choice and a Singaporean should not have a lesser freedom of choice than a foreigner in our own country.
Isn't it a paradox that Singaporeans claim not to want a nanny state but want to be nannied.
If a Singaporean gambler loses all their money in the casino, he shouldn't blame the government he should blame himself.
I agree and I'm not idealistic to think we can eradicate poverty in SG either. But perhaps our policies have been too pro-aggressive that favours the able/haves. Again that "trade-offs" dilemma.
Another eg. Casinos. Impose $100 levy.
Perhaps we can try max frequency per year per pax...5x 4x, 3x per year? Won't prevent gamblers from gambling but limit their chances to gamble their families wealth away.
Maybe even the Casino operators lobbied against it. So there we have it ...self interest groups and politics.
Not all the best practice or first in class solutions can pass.
Bro, that's coming from a disciplined, well-balanced person like most of us.
But these addictive-prone people - need some form of ring-fencing...sorta like Greece. They just don't know any better - deluded if anything.
The off-shoot to being left alone is there will be more homeless, crime and innocent victims. Besides system can't work when the people are in despair and committing suicide. You need the citizenry with some hope and optimism - else the structure will crumble.
I am against casinos for the philosophy of it but can't help but agree with the business aspect of it.
Wrt the restriction of Singaporeans and the imposition of the entry levy to casinos, I am of the opinion that we do away with all of that. It is about the freedom of choice and a Singaporean should not have a lesser freedom of choice than a foreigner in our own country.
Isn't it a paradox that Singaporeans claim not to want a nanny state but want to be nannied.
If a Singaporean gambler loses all their money in the casino, he shouldn't blame the government he should blame himself.
I think the $100 is not a deterent at all, it is more like a "penalty" to sin legally.
If the ill-disciplined and unbalanced amongst us can't blow their life savings at the roulette table in MBS or RWS, they will find other places to do so.
Sounds cruel but if we desire to be a progressive society, the apron strings must be cut at some point.
I am of the opinion that we either have unrestricted access or no casino at all.
Bro, that's coming from a disciplined, well-balanced person like most of us.
But these addictive-prone people - need some form of ring-fencing...sorta like Greece. They just don't know any better - deluded if anything.
The off-shoot to being left alone is there will be more homeless, crime and innocent victims. Besides system can't work when the people are in despair and committing suicide. You need the citizenry with some hope and optimism - else the structure will crumble.
I think the $100 is not a deterent at all, it is more like a "penalty" to sin legally.
If the ill-disciplined and unbalanced amongst us can't blow their life savings at the roulette table in MBS or RWS, they will find other places to do so.
Sounds cruel but if we desire to be a progressive society, the apron strings must be cut at some point.
I am of the opinion that we either have unrestricted access or no casino at all.
Bro, drive down to MBS or RWS carparks on Fri night or weekends, and have a look at the no. of SG registered cars there. I think Singaporeans comprise 40 to 50% of the gamblers. Lowly educated uncles and aunties are willing their time & money away at the casino, as we speak.
What is $100 levy? You can win it back in 1 turn, goes the war cry!
I am in favour of restricting the no. of visits that Singaporeans, PR & FT can make monthly, say only twice a mth. Either that, or a prohibitive $1,000 per visit, with no yearly pass. But does our Govt have the political will to do this? I doubt.....
I am against casinos for the philosophy of it but can't help but agree with the business aspect of it.
conclusion?
PAP MPs do very shallow "debating" in parliament, in the end wats the conclusion?
The fact and truth is casinos will bring more harm than good. This is undisputed.
Wrt the restriction of Singaporeans and the imposition of the entry levy to casinos, I am of the opinion that we do away with all of that. It is about the freedom of choice and a Singaporean should not have a lesser freedom of choice than a foreigner in our own country.
Isn't it a paradox that Singaporeans claim not to want a nanny state but want to be nannied.
If a Singaporean gambler loses all their money in the casino, he shouldn't blame the government he should blame himself.
The strong in society can take care of themselves. It is the weak that is the hardest hit and needs the most protection. And introducing casinos erode the kind of values a society stands for.
Arguing over whether there should be levy or not misses the point. Likewise saying Singaporeans want to be nannied is also untrue. It is the state that decides to be the nanny from the word go, so it is not a question of whether the egg or the chicken comes first as singaporeans never had a say.
Political will to impose $1000/entry?......Aiyah... blame the government again....
First of all, let me emphasise that I am against casinos for many reasons. So for allowing the casinos in the first place, we can blame the government. But then again, they were elected by us the citizens(collectively as a nation, this includes those who voted for the opposition as well)
But I am more against restriction of choice. We either have the maturity as a nation to handle it or not. To impose a $1000/entry levy is telling the world that we don't have that maturity.
And perhaps you are right we really don't have that maturity and need to be nannied.
Bro, drive down to MBS or RWS carparks on Fri night or weekends, and have a look at the no. of SG registered cars there. I think Singaporeans comprise 40 to 50% of the gamblers. Lowly educated uncles and aunties are willing their time & money away at the casino, as we speak.
What is $100 levy? You can win it back in 1 turn, goes the war cry!
I am in favour of restricting the no. of visits that Singaporeans, PR & FT can make monthly, say only twice a mth. Either that, or a prohibitive $1,000 per visit, with no yearly pass. But does our Govt have the political will to do this? I doubt.....
conclusion?
PAP MPs do very shallow "debating" in parliament, in the end wats the conclusion?
The fact and truth is casinos will bring more harm than good. This is undisputed.
The strong in society can take care of themselves. It is the weak that is the hardest hit and needs the most protection. And introducing casinos erode the kind of values a society stands for.
Arguing over whether there should be levy or not misses the point. Likewise saying Singaporeans want to be nannied is also untrue. It is the state that decides to be the nanny from the word go, so it is not a question of whether the egg or the chicken comes first as singaporeans never had a say.
Agree on all points except the last one... we do have a say... we can vote the ruling party out. But why didn't we?
Political will to impose $1000/entry?......Aiyah... blame the government again....
First of all, let me emphasise that I am against casinos for many reasons. So for allowing the casinos in the first place, we can blame the government. But then again, they were elected by us the citizens(collectively as a nation, this includes those who voted for the opposition as well)
But I am more against restriction of choice. We either have the maturity as a nation to handle it or not. To impose a $1000/entry levy is telling the world that we don't have that maturity.
And perhaps you are right we really don't have that maturity and need to be nannied.
Again it is not a chicken or egg situation of which comes first, the maturity or the need to be nannied. The decision has been made for the people long ago.
And an immature electorate is politically beneficial to the incumbent allowing it to continue to rule with absolute power.
I am one of those who agreed with George Yeo that a casino was needed to rejuvenate our tourism market, which was frankly becoming stale (Sentosa, zoo, Orchard Rd). Amidst strong debate then, the $100 levy, exclusion orders etc were put in place.
It was then said that the casinos needed an appropriately-sized local market to sustain its operations. I recalled (but may be wrong) that a figure of 20% local market was being brandied.
It must surely be clear to all that the $100 levy has failed to serve its purpose, given the current size of the local market. I think a restriction of 2 visits per mth is a "fair trade-off" for the policy makers. Less gaming revenue, but a healthier society. I don't see why I shouldnt pin this "trade-off" responsibility on the Govt.
Again it is not a chicken or egg situation of which comes first, the maturity or the need to be nannied. The decision has been made for the people long ago.
And an immature electorate is politically beneficial to the incumbent allowing it to continue to rule with absolute power.
Yes all true... so it all boils down to the electorate, immature or otherwise. That's the democratic process.
in order to make a fair comparision, one must firstly compare whether the countries r similar anot in terms of resources avail, geographic location etc
Yes those are common justifications cited by the beloved gov on how well Singapore has done despite it all. But I don't think it was the authors' intention to write report cards for gov, but rather to compare taxes and costs, and apparently singapore's are not as low as commonly perceived.
This is my solution on a personal basis, not national. If you are a struggling middle-income earner, dont buy car. Earn & save as much as possible during your time in SG.
When you are in your late forties, migrate to the western countries while you are still economically useful to them. You should get, say Aussie PR first then citizenship, while your wife remains a Singaporean but with Aussie PR. Rent out your HDB flat & collect rental income mthly while in Australia.
You get the best of both world - Savings from Singapore low-tax sys & Aussie or equivalent retirement benefits. Singapore Govt will be more than happy to see the back of you as you age, while the next wave of foreign "talents" replace you, in the name of population rejuvenation.
It's sad but that's the way it is nowadays if you want to make full use of the system.
But wouldn't that strategy be unfair to the target country that you will migrate to? It will have to bear the burden of you in old age, but does not enjoy your contribution from the best years of your productive life. Will you then become as unwelcome to its "locals" as the fake FTs in Singapore?
But wouldn't that strategy be unfair to the target country that you will migrate to? It will have to bear the burden of you in old age, but does not enjoy your contribution from the best years of your productive life. Will you then become as unwelcome to its "locals" as the fake FTs in Singapore?
It's not as if you didn't contribute (taxes) to the country nor didn't partake in the growth during the years from 40 onwards. The requirements are also strict to be a PR or citizen and you'll need to invest in certain amount of time and money before you're provided with the PR.
To get a PR, either you have a business set up of at least a million start up capital (from when i was still studying in 2005-06, figures could have changed) or did a decent degree (in Aust) in a major that is in demand. Schools fees are 5x(?) what the locals paid. This is yet another form of contribution prior to getting the PR.
Do you pay more tax when you're starting out in your career or towards mid career when you're in middle/top management? What about consumption level?
From what i infer from his post, he mentioned, going relatively early age, 40s, not when you're 60-70s. I could be wrong from my understanding and please correct me if i do.
I am one of those who agreed with George Yeo that a casino was needed to rejuvenate our tourism market, which was frankly becoming stale (Sentosa, zoo, Orchard Rd). Amidst strong debate then, the $100 levy, exclusion orders etc were put in place.
It was then said that the casinos needed an appropriately-sized local market to sustain its operations. I recalled (but may be wrong) that a figure of 20% local market was being brandied.
It must surely be clear to all that the $100 levy has failed to serve its purpose, given the current size of the local market. I think a restriction of 2 visits per mth is a "fair trade-off" for the policy makers. Less gaming revenue, but a healthier society. I don't see why I shouldnt pin this "trade-off" responsibility on the Govt.
I think if the levy is raised at this point the government will be criticised for profiteering once they've got the citizens "hooked". Either way the government would be able to win this one.
devilplate
18-11-11, 13:38
I know where your're going with this and of course you have a valid point of view. But I reckon you have this view coz you're one of the fortunate Singaporeans (as is I) who is educated/property owning/financially savvy etc.
We're en route to becoming another (almost) Macau where the local citizens are displaced from their own land over time. Not all - just the less savvy/educated/poor/weak.
SG looks shiny and colourful ...live, work and play ...but look closely at the bowels of the lower of our society and you will know. Some choose not to know and care. They justify as trade-offs that must be made...how sad.
in every country, there r always ppl fall in between the cracks and we just goto be realistic.....yes, we r the fortunate ones tat dun hf to struggle our lives to make ends meet.....so wat we can do is to do more volunteering work and make more donations.....;)
in canada, the waiting time for free medical treatment can be MONTHS:doh:
Should follow some countries like ban locals from entering casino.
I think the $100 is not a deterent at all, it is more like a "penalty" to sin legally.
If the ill-disciplined and unbalanced amongst us can't blow their life savings at the roulette table in MBS or RWS, they will find other places to do so.
Sounds cruel but if we desire to be a progressive society, the apron strings must be cut at some point.
I am of the opinion that we either have unrestricted access or no casino at all.
devilplate
18-11-11, 13:43
There is no silver bullet.
Some policies/rules require tweaks, some require revamps.
Take housing ...the fundermental concept of HDB is fantastic...great
But some rules can be tweaked ...say 1st timers MOP 5 years ...that's fine, but 2nd timers should be increased to maybe 10 or even 15 years. Coz once these 2nd timer encash this one - they're subject to market forces.
u will make alot of 2nd timers unhappy! hehe
time has changed, world is ever changing....and yes, our policies need constant tweaking and updates....
i leave it to our highly paid ministers.....
It's not as if you didn't contribute (taxes) to the country nor didn't partake in the growth during the years from 40 onwards. The requirements are also strict to be a PR or citizen and you'll need to invest in certain amount of time and money before you're provided with the PR.
To get a PR, either you have a business set up of at least a million start up capital (from when i was still studying in 2005-06, figures could have changed) or did a decent degree (in Aust) in a major that is in demand. Schools fees are 5x(?) what the locals paid. This is yet another form of contribution prior to getting the PR.
Do you pay more tax when you're starting out in your career or towards mid career when you're in middle/top management? What about consumption level?
From what i infer from his post, he mentioned, going relatively early age, 40s, not when you're 60-70s. I could be wrong from my understanding and please correct me if i do.
Fair enough if the contribution is significant. But I suspect at the peak of their careers, most will find high-paying jobs easier in Singapore. But if they are willing to downgrade their earnings and adopt a long term view ... kudos.
devilplate
18-11-11, 13:46
I am against casinos for the philosophy of it but can't help but agree with the business aspect of it.
Wrt the restriction of Singaporeans and the imposition of the entry levy to casinos, I am of the opinion that we do away with all of that. It is about the freedom of choice and a Singaporean should not have a lesser freedom of choice than a foreigner in our own country.
Isn't it a paradox that Singaporeans claim not to want a nanny state but want to be nannied.
If a Singaporean gambler loses all their money in the casino, he shouldn't blame the government he should blame himself.
loving it:cheers1:
devilplate
18-11-11, 13:51
I think the $100 is not a deterent at all, it is more like a "penalty" to sin legally.
If the ill-disciplined and unbalanced amongst us can't blow their life savings at the roulette table in MBS or RWS, they will find other places to do so.
Sounds cruel but if we desire to be a progressive society, the apron strings must be cut at some point.
I am of the opinion that we either have unrestricted access or no casino at all.
it is a BIG deterent from wat i gathered from my frens and relatives!
alot of them wana go in look see look see.....'window gambling'.....but being detered by the $100.....and if govt removed the $100, many of such will go and and look see and high chance they might be tempted to gamble when they see ppl win money ......den once u started....hohoho:D
i ever asked myself.....if no entry levy, i prolly enter once a mth or more frequently! den gone case liao......LOL
true we can go other casino like genting msia.....but the journey is so long and ZzZz......sentosa rws super convenient, just a short drive and can use 2 points to deduct carpark fees! whahahaha
Will variable lease work for HDB? you buy what you need/can afford... i.e. old folks 30 years, young couple 50 years lease. That way the price of new flats can be lowered according to lease and not affecting the ones in the market.
devilplate
18-11-11, 13:54
conclusion?
PAP MPs do very shallow "debating" in parliament, in the end wats the conclusion?
The fact and truth is casinos will bring more harm than good. This is undisputed.
The strong in society can take care of themselves. It is the weak that is the hardest hit and needs the most protection. And introducing casinos erode the kind of values a society stands for.
Arguing over whether there should be levy or not misses the point. Likewise saying Singaporeans want to be nannied is also untrue. It is the state that decides to be the nanny from the word go, so it is not a question of whether the egg or the chicken comes first as singaporeans never had a say.
u voted 1st world parliament rite?
aspire to be living in a 1st world country?
alot of 1st world countries got casinoes ok :p
devilplate
18-11-11, 13:57
Yes those are common justifications cited by the beloved gov on how well Singapore has done despite it all. But I don't think it was the authors' intention to write report cards for gov, but rather to compare taxes and costs, and apparently singapore's are not as low as commonly perceived.
anyway, u see how EU failing now being a welfare country
devilplate
18-11-11, 14:00
Should follow some countries like ban locals from entering casino.
if we aspiring to be 1st world country and so gian to haf a 1st world parliament....i wud say such Ban is not allowed....
either u have casino or not in the 1st place......
no no to casino if u tink ur citizens r not mature enuff to handle casino
u see USA, Aussie, NZ.....all got casinoes and they dun hf levy
anyway, u see how EU failing now being a welfare country
EU is not a country. Greece is also very different from say Germany. That's why EU is likely to fail despite best efforts.
in every country, there r always ppl fall in between the cracks and we just goto be realistic.....yes, we r the fortunate ones tat dun hf to struggle our lives to make ends meet.....so wat we can do is to do more volunteering work and make more donations.....;)
in canada, the waiting time for free medical treatment can be MONTHS:doh:
over here subsdised treatment also MONTHS.
devilplate
18-11-11, 14:06
EU is not a country. Greece is also very different from say Germany. That's why EU is likely to fail despite best efforts.
the problem is not just greece alone la....i can tell u almost all the EU countries got debt problems......either big or small or at the brink of default
u tink germany ok wif their debt size vs gdp?
devilplate
18-11-11, 14:08
over here subsdised treatment also MONTHS.
ya....so in those high welfare countries...sama sama.....dunwan to wait....goto pay lor....LOL
i hf relatives living in EU.....told me tat vy common for ppl to take sick leave 1-2times a mth.....LOL
goto work hard inorder to survive in SG.....govt set the condition to be like dat......bcoz we only got manpower resource mah....den those fallen behind surely will complain lor....
and richer ppl also use tat to complain whenever they r unhappy wif the govt for other reasons....LOL
Asian loves to gamble. Casinos in UK and Australia do have quite a bit of Asian patronise them.
if we aspiring to be 1st world country and so gian to haf a 1st world parliament....i wud say such Ban is not allowed....
either u have casino or not in the 1st place......
no no to casino if u tink ur citizens r not mature enuff to handle casino
u see USA, Aussie, NZ.....all got casinoes and they dun hf levy
ya....so in those high welfare countries...sama sama.....dunwan to wait....goto pay lor....LOL
i hf relatives living in EU.....told me tat vy common for ppl to take sick leave 1-2 a mth.....LOL
free, takes months
subsidised, takes months
which one better? lol
devilplate
18-11-11, 14:15
free, takes months
subsidised, takes months
which one better? lol
from wat i heard, its actually not free....every working citizen goto pay a national medical insurance.....
and den free stuff, ppl sure gian gian and make fully use of it lor.....little pain here and there also must see doctor mah...foc mah.....hehehe
Over there they calling it 'gaming'.
Here in HK/SG/China its call 'gambling'.
Mentality to wagering is different ...show-hand...like Chow Yan Fatt movies!
Anyway, I not advocating Welfare State ...but policies should take care all citizenry and not just pro-growth that it results in polarisation of society.
if we aspiring to be 1st world country and so gian to haf a 1st world parliament....i wud say such Ban is not allowed....
either u have casino or not in the 1st place......
no no to casino if u tink ur citizens r not mature enuff to handle casino
u see USA, Aussie, NZ.....all got casinoes and they dun hf levy
Maybe your idea can be further developed....since HDB leases out the use of the flat, the "buyer" own nothing really...just airspace.
So, HDB can actually price blocks of time - 5 yrs, 10 yrs ...99 yrs.
Then those who want to migrate can buy the short-lease and those who to die here can get the 99 yr ones.
Will variable lease work for HDB? you buy what you need/can afford... i.e. old folks 30 years, young couple 50 years lease. That way the price of new flats can be lowered according to lease and not affecting the ones in the market.
the problem is not just greece alone la....i can tell u almost all the EU countries got debt problems......either big or small or at the brink of default
u tink germany ok wif their debt size vs gdp?
Germany public debt is about 83% of its GDP, which seems high but it is all relative. Money has to go somewhere and at crisis time it will go to the safest place, and Germany happens to be one of the safest place. This fund flow will further keep Germany's funding cost low, which make Germany even safer.
At boom time money goes to riskier assets so the bond yield will increase, but who cares when we are at boom time?
By the way, for your information Singapore public debt is at about 100% of its GDP. However, SG has budget surplus while Germany's deficit is about 8% of its GDP
Maybe your idea can be further developed....since HDB leases out the use of the flat, the "buyer" own nothing really...just airspace.
So, HDB can actually price blocks of time - 5 yrs, 10 yrs ...99 yrs.
Then those who want to migrate can buy the short-lease and those who to die here can get the 99 yr ones.
they wont do it bcos it is too much work.
ask them to exempt basic food necessities from gst they already say too much work and not feasible liao. lol
Bro, we think along the same lines...my next eg was going to be GST for basics/raw food items.
Easy mah ...work with SP Svs and have a GIRO/Standing instruction ...in xx years no more power/water until change of leasee...lol
they wont do it bcos it is too much work.
ask them to exempt basic food necessities from gst they already say too much work and not feasible liao. lol
devilplate
18-11-11, 15:11
Maybe your idea can be further developed....since HDB leases out the use of the flat, the "buyer" own nothing really...just airspace.
So, HDB can actually price blocks of time - 5 yrs, 10 yrs ...99 yrs.
Then those who want to migrate can buy the short-lease and those who to die here can get the 99 yr ones.
u noe y govt prefer HDB 'ownership' den rental flats rite?
i noe its lessee....;)
devilplate
18-11-11, 15:14
Germany public debt is about 83% of its GDP, which seems high but it is all relative. Money has to go somewhere and at crisis time it will go to the safest place, and Germany happens to be one of the safest place. This fund flow will further keep Germany's funding cost low, which make Germany even safer.
At boom time money goes to riskier assets so the bond yield will increase, but who cares when we are at boom time?
By the way, for your information Singapore public debt is at about 100% of its GDP. However, SG has budget surplus while Germany's deficit is about 8% of its GDP
yes....it was discussed in skyscraper forum last time;)
ignorant ppl like me tot SG public debt like WOW so high....LOL
basic also thought so!!! WHAHAHA
devilplate
18-11-11, 15:16
toking abt budget.....actually i m so sad tat TCB din win lor....he promised to provide us with a P&L annual statement lor.....
it is a BIG deterent from wat i gathered from my frens and relatives!
alot of them wana go in look see look see.....'window gambling'.....but being detered by the $100.....and if govt removed the $100, many of such will go and and look see and high chance they might be tempted to gamble when they see ppl win money ......den once u started....hohoho:D
i ever asked myself.....if no entry levy, i prolly enter once a mth or more frequently! den gone case liao......LOL
true we can go other casino like genting msia.....but the journey is so long and ZzZz......sentosa rws super convenient, just a short drive and can use 2 points to deduct carpark fees! whahahaha
there are thousands everyday, go free to the open sea casino via Batam. these are the real problem cases.
yes....it was discussed in skyscraper forum last time;)
ignorant ppl like me tot SG public debt like WOW so high....LOL
basic also thought so!!! WHAHAHA
Budget surplus, although not directly link a country's ability to repay its debt, shows the government is prudent and financially disciplined, which makes investors more comfortable to buy its sovereign debts.
Singapore also has decent foreign reserves and an unknown sum of reserves in GIC and Temasek, which means we have the ability to repay a good portion of the public debt if have to.
All these make SG a credible country which push the funding cost low so 100% of public debt to GDP seems high but sustainable
Take away: credibility, credibility, credibility
toking abt budget.....actually i m so sad tat TCB din win lor....he promised to provide us with a P&L annual statement lor.....
He can promise but he might find it hard to get it even if he was the president
Germany public debt is about 83% of its GDP, which seems high but it is all relative. Money has to go somewhere and at crisis time it will go to the safest place, and Germany happens to be one of the safest place. This fund flow will further keep Germany's funding cost low, which make Germany even safer.
Same can be said about the US ! That's why US 10y is only 2% and going down some more. It doesn't matter whether you are really in debt. (btw ur new found friend doesn't understand this)
That's why Paul Krugman is convinced the FED can, and should, do more QEs. And ECB eventually has to come to this. Asset inflation is inevitable. We all can be disgusted at how the west borrow its way out while screwing the hardworking 3rd world countries including china, but since we are also in it ourselves, we have to find where and how we can survive. Today's macro economy is not so simple.
devilplate
18-11-11, 15:50
He can promise but he might find it hard to get it even if he was the president
well tats another story....
got promise means got hope.....better den hopeless now? hehehe
devilplate
18-11-11, 15:52
Budget surplus, although not directly link a country's ability to repay its debt, shows the government is prudent and financially disciplined, which makes investors more comfortable to buy its sovereign debts.
Singapore also has decent foreign reserves and an unknown sum of reserves in GIC and Temasek, which means we have the ability to repay a good portion of the public debt if have to.
All these make SG a credible country which push the funding cost low so 100% of public debt to GDP seems high but sustainable
Take away: credibility, credibility, credibility
both amk and u can tok really well:cheers1:
devilplate
18-11-11, 15:56
Same can be said about the US ! That's why US 10y is only 2% and going down some more. It doesn't matter whether you are really in debt. (btw ur new found friend doesn't understand this)
That's why Paul Krugman is convinced the FED can, and should, do more QEs. And ECB eventually has to come to this. Asset inflation is inevitable. We all can be disgusted at how the west borrow its way out while screwing the hardworking 3rd world countries including china, but since we are also in it ourselves, we have to find where and how we can survive. Today's macro economy is not so simple.
my knowledge limited but hor i believe ECB may not be able to print wor....its complicated as its a group of countries and germany is super afraid of hyperinflation troubles later on.....once bitten jialat jialat thrice shy liao:2cents:
Same can be said about the US ! That's why US 10y is only 2% and going down some more. It doesn't matter whether you are really in debt. (btw ur new found friend doesn't understand this)
That's why Paul Krugman is convinced the FED can, and should, do more QEs. And ECB eventually has to come to this. Asset inflation is inevitable. We all can be disgusted at how the west borrow its way out while screwing the hardworking 3rd world countries including china, but since we are also in it ourselves, we have to find where and how we can survive. Today's macro economy is not so simple.
QE1 & 2 resulted in asset inflation but QE3 MAY NOT, especially for property. In the long run, property price is driven by economy progress. Monetary policy can be a steroid shot but the effect fades away quickly
By the way, we are here to make friends but not enemy, even under cyber identities
my knowledge limited but hor i believe ECB may not be able to print wor....its complicated as its a group of countries and germany is super afraid of hyperinflation troubles later on.....once bitten jialat jialat thrice shy liao:2cents:
I believe at the end ECB has to print as depreciating EURO/buying up Greece and Italy debts is the only way to bail Greece and Italy out. If Greece and Italy default, EURO is gone!
But it is a double-edge sword as while the problems of Greece and Italy being solved, the inflation problem in Germany and other EURO countries with debt problem are being created. Why do they want to suffer themselves to save others? that's why Germany is against printing
What are going to happen between now and the time they start the printing machine is really crucial: It may be too big to fail, and too late to print
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