View Full Version : Think Twice before you buy a MM for own stay
Here is a real case:
Elder Sister bought a MM with husband at West Coast, happily married and stayed for 2 years, but cannot afford to buy a bigger unit to have baby.
Younger Sister bought a bigger unit at Woodlands, happily having baby now.
So think twice if young couples are thinking of buying MM for own stay. That's not good for Singapore fertility rates.
Thanks,
Richard
PS. It would be even worse if singles buying MM for own stay. They are so self sufficient and tend not to marry at all.
Here is a real case:
Elder Sister bought a MM with husband at West Coast, happily married and stayed for 2 years, but cannot afford to buy a bigger unit to have baby.
Younger Sister bought a bigger unit at Woodlands, happily having baby now.
So think twice if young couples are thinking of buying MM for own stay. That's not good for Singapore fertility rates.
Thanks,
Richard
PS. It would be even worse if singles buying MM for own stay. They are so self sufficient and tend not to marry at all.
hi just curious, your elder sister can afford a bigger pte property 2years back before they bought their MM?
They can trade their MM for a 4-5rm flat now and COV had fallen quite a bit recently
ikan bilis
15-01-12, 10:28
west coast got mm ??... parc condo arh ??...
My (male) friend also said it's too cramped if I get married and husband moves in. I said where got so stupid to let husband move in. I will rent out my MM and move in to his place. My (female) friend agreed :D
MM is suitable for single occupancy only for a reasonable standard of living.
Bottomline is: if cannot afford to buy a bigger place, better not have babies.
What a long shot. Cant believe i am reading this... Is like saying if Warren Buffet buys a tower in Reflections then Singapore private condo price will up 200%.
I see many happily married couples staying in MM < 400sf... Some even with a child. Units are so close together your kid can play with neighbours kids anytime dont even need siblings... What a perfect way to have companionship for your precious only child with other couples precious only children....
Sorry for the confusing, they are not my sisters. I am a friend of the Husband for the elder sister.
The problem is they are so used to the nice environment of the MM project, it is so difficult for them to downgrade (in particular the husband - face issue). When a newly wed stayed there for 2 years, they simply call it their home, and refuse to sell.
So their current plan is to buy another bigger unit and rent out the MM. You know all those restrictions come in:
1) If you owned a condo, you cannot buy new HDB in 30 months;
2) If you own a condo, you need to pay 40% for 2nd condo.
So their plan is to save and wait for 2 more years to buy the 2nd condo.
The only problem is by then, the daughter of the younger sister is already 3+ years old, and the elder sister is complaining she got married earlier but will need to wait for so long to have her own baby.
Yes, they have made close to S$200K paper gain for the MM. But a classical case of:
More money doesn't mean more happiness.
Thanks,
Richard
flagship74
15-01-12, 10:33
My (male) friend also said it's too cramped if I get married and husband moves in. I said where got so stupid to let husband move in. I will rent out my MM and move in to his place. My (female) friend agreed :D
MM is suitable for single occupancy only for a reasonable standard of living.
Bottomline is: if cannot afford to buy a bigger place, better not have babies.
If i were the male..let's wait and see..see who can wait longer..:cheers1:
logically, a small house will not stop a couple from having babies. It is their other priorities in life stopping them to have kids
i have seen lower income families staying in a 3rm flat having 3-4 children these days.
it is a common excuse to quote financial reasons for not having babies
logically, a small house will not stop a couple from having babies. It is their other priorities in life stopping them to have kids
Absolutely agree. Malay families knwn to have many kids even if they stay in hdb 3rm. And they are very very family focused and oriented. So ??
8K a month salary is just enough for a slightly above average lifestyle for a family of 5. With each addition to the family, it's 1K more at least.
So either get a 1K salary increment if you want to have a baby or downgrade your lifestyle. Increase the size of the pie or reduce the portion per peron. They have to do the maths.
If they are not willing to do either, they shouldn't have a baby.
If i were the male..let's wait and see..see who can wait longer..:cheers1:
If the guy own his own place already and his attitude is like that, it just means he don't want to marry his gf. Don't need to wait and see ;)
If the guy has no money, don't need to wait and see either :rolleyes:
If the guy own his own place already and his attitude is like that, it just means he don't want to marry his gf. Don't need to wait and see ;)
If the guy has no money, don't need to wait and see either :rolleyes:
When there is true love a couple will make it work no matter what. Even if it means living in tents at east coast park. So i suspect all these talk about not enough room for more is mere excuses at best, or with ill intention to talk down the market putting blame on small format homes at worst.
It is how urban living has evolved and there is simply no use in fighting it. You want space? Move to jb....
If you cant stand the sight of your partner and or kids in your face most of the day then perhaps you are not truly treasuring them as your closest kin.
We need to have fair comparison. The couple could have bought a bigger unit at Woodlands (just like the younger sister), and likely they are having baby now. The mistake was they bought a MM for own stay.
There are many reasons for poor people to have more babies:
1) They do not see hope for their generation to move up, so the hope is on next generation;
2) The poor will get poorer (The official newspaper has published 2/3 of the kids for the lowest 20% income will leave that bracket. Please note, that means they are 33% of chance to stay in that bracket, higher than the statistic 20%). So more baby increases the chances;
3) Muslims are "taxed" at 4% of total asset while Christians are "taxed" at 10% income. That's why you see Muslims don't want to save, better to spend it.
4) Lowest income can "afford" to have many babies because the "opportunity" cost is low.
Maybe government should have much better property tax incentives for family to have babies.
Thanks,
Richard
MM is good for investment, but be careful of the side effects (not getting married, not easy to have baby) if you intend to buy it for own stay.
Just my observations: most are singles (some are really pretty ladies), fewer are couples, rare with kids.
Thanks,
Richard
600-700sqft MM of built in excluding balcony and yard still can squeeze with one kid. Any more and it will be a real squeeze.
I thought for development of kids, must give him ample space to crawl around. So MM should not be even considered for family of 3.
When there is true love a couple will make it work no matter what. Even if it means living in tents at east coast park. So i suspect all these talk about not enough room for more is mere excuses at best, or with ill intention to talk down the market putting blame on small format homes at worst.
It is how urban living has evolved and there is simply no use in fighting it. You want space? Move to jb....
If you cant stand the sight of your partner and or kids in your face most of the day then perhaps you are not truly treasuring them as your closest kin.
Shouldn't jump to such conclusions about people.
E.g. those living in tents may not necessarily care for their children as much as a woman who gives up her child for adoption.
Couples who don't want to have children don't necessarily love each other less than couples who want to.
Those who like to have their own space aren't necessarily people who do not treasure relationships. People who are naturally more creative typically need more alone time than people who are not.
600-700sqft MM of built in excluding balcony and yard still can squeeze with one kid. Any more and it will be a real squeeze.
This size is not considered MM :p
MM is good for investment, but be careful of the side effects (not getting married, not easy to have baby) if you intend to buy it for own stay.
Not getting married is not an effect of having an MM!
It's the other way round...
this case study is quite obvious that the couple prioritize their 'FACE' more than having a child. Nobody is for sure that the couple will have kid if they had bought a bigger apartment originally
What is wrong to switch from a MM to a bigger flat? personally, i will consider that as an upgrade rather than a downgrade
MM is never good for family ...
so small.:doh::doh:
This size is not considered MM :p ...
Anything smaller than that is MM to me.
buy resale need not wait 30mths right?
5room HDB flat, my friends at woodland one is about 1700sqft, she said is call jumbo size.
MM condo is for lifestyle, investment, but when have family, think twice... which one is more important. own comfort or kids future?
"""If you owned a condo, you cannot buy new HDB in 30 months;""
Sorry for the confusing, they are not my sisters. I am a friend of the Husband for the elder sister.
The problem is they are so used to the nice environment of the MM project, it is so difficult for them to downgrade (in particular the husband - face issue). When a newly wed stayed there for 2 years, they simply call it their home, and refuse to sell.
So their current plan is to buy another bigger unit and rent out the MM. You know all those restrictions come in:
1) If you owned a condo, you cannot buy new HDB in 30 months;
2) If you own a condo, you need to pay 40% for 2nd condo.
So their plan is to save and wait for 2 more years to buy the 2nd condo.
The only problem is by then, the daughter of the younger sister is already 3+ years old, and the elder sister is complaining she got married earlier but will need to wait for so long to have her own baby.
Yes, they have made close to S$200K paper gain for the MM. But a classical case of:
More money doesn't mean more happiness.
Thanks,
Richard
Well said!
MM is never good for family ...
so small.:doh::doh:
If a couple is even thinking of having children, they shouldn't think of MM at all. Nowadays new flats are almost like condo. no need specifically get a condo for face value.
ikan bilis
15-01-12, 15:31
everytime me looking at mm floorplan..., seen most mm are near mrt, open kitchen, big balcony, small pool or spa within unit/spa facilities.... give me impression that mm are ideal for ons singles... how to make real babies ??... :beats-me-man:
"Not getting married is not an effect of having an MM!
It's the other way round..."
Thanks for the clarification. I have to agree with you now.
Newer generation is smarter!
Thanks,
Richard
Last time people stay HDB 1 room and 2 room flat also got big family. Father mother sleep double decker bottom, children sleep on top and in living room. SOHO living.
:D
My (male) friend also said it's too cramped if I get married and husband moves in. I said where got so stupid to let husband move in. I will rent out my MM and move in to his place. My (female) friend agreed :D
MM is suitable for single occupancy only for a reasonable standard of living.
Bottomline is: if cannot afford to buy a bigger place, better not have babies.Sure can afford big unit... just get hdb lor... 3 room flat also has 2 bedrooms.... :rolleyes:
Now is different. Singles could afford MM. So you'd better to get a 2-bedder to get married, and 3-bedder if you want to have 2 kids.
Thanks,
Richard
Last time people stay HDB 1 room and 2 room flat also got big family. Father mother sleep double decker bottom, children sleep on top and in living room. SOHO living.
:DCannot use 1970 standard in 2010 lah. :rolleyes: Can you drive a car today without signal lights and air-con like in the 1970s? Today's weather is much hotter than 40 years ago... :cheers1:
The cut off point for top 20% household earners is about 11K per month.
Condo is targeted at top 20%.
http://www.singstat.gov.sg/stats/themes/people/hist/hhinc1.pdf
roughly, ( 12,818 + 10,095 ) / 2 = 11,456
So lots of people indeed cannot afford to buy condo by Policy definition.
Maybe this case study shows exact how bad the outcome could be if you have bought something you cannot really afford.
If bankers and housing agents are not educated to find the right segment, maybe buyers should be aware.
Thanks,
Richard
blackjack21trader
15-01-12, 16:38
the best strategy is when u r single buy an mm asap. then make sure u marry another single with an mm too. that way, after marriage, both can sell the 2 mms and go for a 2 bedder lor.
for myself and family of 5 we are staying in a 3 bedder. i intend to buy 1 mm for my older maturing teenager now. and one for every maturing one next.
good luck ;)
Just to make sure MMs are under parents' name, otherwise they need to wait for 30 month if they want to buy new HDB.
Now with ABSD, under parents' name will likely need to pay 3% more.
Run out of idea now ...
Thanks,
Richard
The cut off point for top 20% household earners is about 11K per month.
Condo is targeted at top 20%.
http://www.singstat.gov.sg/stats/themes/people/hist/hhinc1.pdf
roughly, ( 12,818 + 10,095 ) / 2 = 11,456
So lots of people indeed cannot afford to buy condo by Policy definition.
Maybe this case study shows exact how bad the outcome could be if you have bought something you cannot really afford.
If bankers and housing agents are not educated to find the right segment, maybe buyers should be aware.
Thanks,
Richard According to the table, the top 20% household income is $12,818 or more in 2010. Not sure why you took the average.
Sorry for the confusing, they are not my sisters. I am a friend of the Husband for the elder sister.
The problem is they are so used to the nice environment of the MM project, it is so difficult for them to downgrade (in particular the husband - face issue). When a newly wed stayed there for 2 years, they simply call it their home, and refuse to sell.
So their current plan is to buy another bigger unit and rent out the MM. You know all those restrictions come in:
1) If you owned a condo, you cannot buy new HDB in 30 months;
2) If you own a condo, you need to pay 40% for 2nd condo.
So their plan is to save and wait for 2 more years to buy the 2nd condo.
The only problem is by then, the daughter of the younger sister is already 3+ years old, and the elder sister is complaining she got married earlier but will need to wait for so long to have her own baby.
Yes, they have made close to S$200K paper gain for the MM. But a classical case of:
More money doesn't mean more happiness.
Thanks,
Richard
It looks to me that mm unit is not the main reason for them not to have a baby, I think they are more concern of having a 2nd ppty first before having their first child. MM unit has their advantages too and I find that family bond are closer also as I have come across a few cases.
Giving birth to a baby is not based on "first-come-first serve", doesn't mean that you marry first, you'll sure to have baby first, I have a friend who married earlier than me, till now still no baby and another one waited for 6 yrs before giving birth to a twin.
the best strategy is when u r single buy an mm asap. then make sure u marry another single with an mm too. that way, after marriage, both can sell the 2 mms and go for a 2 bedder lor.
for myself and family of 5 we are staying in a 3 bedder. i intend to buy 1 mm for my older maturing teenager now. and one for every maturing one next.
good luck ;)
Your kids are lucky! In my time when parents paid for their kids' backpacking tours to Europe after graduation, I thought that was a luxury. Now parents buy apartments for their kids! :scared-4:
MM unit has their advantages too and I find that family bond are closer also as I have come across a few cases.
Are they your very close friends who personally and honestly told you that?
I only know that familiarity breeds contempt :D
Here is a real case:
Elder Sister bought a MM with husband at West Coast, happily married and stayed for 2 years, but cannot afford to buy a bigger unit to have baby.
Younger Sister bought a bigger unit at Woodlands, happily having baby now.
So think twice if young couples are thinking of buying MM for own stay. That's not good for Singapore fertility rates.
Thanks,
Richard
PS. It would be even worse if singles buying MM for own stay. They are so self sufficient and tend not to marry at all.
Don think nit having bb based on the Hse is the main reason...it
Just so many Parameters. Properly man cmi so blamed on the Hse...
Are they your very close friends who personally and honestly told you that?
I only know that familiarity breeds contempt :D
Yes, they are my sister-in-law and cousins. Brother and sister are so closed that people mistaken them as boyfriend and girlfriend, hehe.:doh:
the best strategy is when u r single buy an mm asap. then make sure u marry another single with an mm too. that way, after marriage, both can sell the 2 mms and go for a 2 bedder lor.
for myself and family of 5 we are staying in a 3 bedder. i intend to buy 1 mm for my older maturing teenager now. and one for every maturing one next.
good luck ;)
I have a different view. First time home owners should go for new HDB flat. Lower risk incase market corrects downwards, and good capital gains if current prices hold. If not can also consider 2bedder EC (which can be cheaper than MMs!!) Besides EC will have enough space to allow one to start a family immediately. NO need to time the market and let it control your life what!
The table shows the "average" income of the top 10% - 20% is S$12,818, it is NOT the cut off point for top 20%. The cut off point is LOWER than that.
I can only estimate the cut off point.
If I tell you that ministers pay is only bench marked with the richest 500 Singaporeans (not 1000), will you agree with me?
The "median" of top 1000 means the cut off point is top 500. The other 500 has NO impact to the cut off point.
Thanks,
Richard
blackjack21trader
16-01-12, 05:16
Just to make sure MMs are under parents' name, otherwise they need to wait for 30 month if they want to buy new HDB.
Now with ABSD, under parents' name will likely need to pay 3% more.
Run out of idea now ...
Thanks,
Richard
thanks for ur reminder, bro :) that totally did not cross my mind !
thanks for ur reminder, bro :) that totally did not cross my mind !So wat what age do you think your maturing teengage child will get that MM? I for one am not for the idea of buying properties for my child. I can support it by maybe subsidizing but certianly not buying whole thing... :D
Buy for rental income but with that view that eventually thwy will each inherit one. In the mean time, they have to work hard for their HDB flat.
my view is even for investment MM are bad.. basically there should not be MM class of housing its bad for the population. esp the MM in HDB area. Dont make sense. its all greedy developer capitalizing on the greed of the public.
my view is even for investment MM are bad.. basically there should not be MM class of housing its bad for the population. esp the MM in HDB area. Dont make sense. its all greedy developer capitalizing on the greed of the public.There is always room for every housing type in Singapore... there are many singles in our society and it makes no sense to buy a 2 or 3 bedder coz these singles are usually not home and have no time to clean up the apartment so a studio makes perfect sense for them. :)
There is always room for every housing type in Singapore... there are many singles in our society and it makes no sense to buy a 2 or 3 bedder coz these singles are usually not home and have no time to clean up the apartment so a studio makes perfect sense for them. :)
true but my gripes is 350sqf MM with balcony and bay windows tats really bad. to me a stuido needs to be at least 600sqf. w/o all the stupid balcony and bay window.
At least a 2 bedder would be useful. Can scale up when settle ddown. Or have a study room when single. Besides, nowadays 2 room so small.
true but my gripes is 350sqf MM with balcony and bay windows tats really bad. to me a stuido needs to be at least 600sqf. w/o all the stupid balcony and bay window.I will not disagree on that... especially those huge balconies that is bigger than the master bedroom.... my sister's house balcony is nearly the size of the sitting room... :doh:
Akira Fudou
16-01-12, 09:59
The choice is always yours to begin with... If they really wanted a baby, they will make changes to suit the future situation. you are just like saying a couple who owns a 2 seaters sports car vs another who owns a 5 seaters saloon car. When the time comes, they will eventually change to one that can accommodate the entire family. Be it car or house.
true but my gripes is 350sqf MM with balcony and bay windows tats really bad. to me a stuido needs to be at least 600sqf. w/o all the stupid balcony and bay window.
everyone have their own preference. MM are able to find tenant and provide a cheaper alternative to tenants who do not wish to have housemates.
i do not like windowless kitchen and toilet and therefore MM is out for me too.
blackjack21trader
16-01-12, 11:18
brothers here got heard of the dual key apartment or not leh ?
They have 2 entrances. One to a room and another to the main unit. The self-sufficient room works exactly like a standalone studio unit.
What do you think some owners will do for this kinda apartment? YES! very clever, they will start to rent them out. WOAHAHAHAHA
This will create a very vibrant mm market. that is why your humble brother here is considering mm units although initially I have a different opinion about them.
this type apartment just confirmed there is a demand for mms now.
Jonathan0503
16-01-12, 11:57
my view is even for investment MM are bad.. basically there should not be MM class of housing its bad for the population. esp the MM in HDB area. Dont make sense. its all greedy developer capitalizing on the greed of the public.
It's because there's demand for MM that's why developers are building more, not the other way round.
Jonathan0503
16-01-12, 11:59
true but my gripes is 350sqf MM with balcony and bay windows tats really bad. to me a stuido needs to be at least 600sqf. w/o all the stupid balcony and bay window.
Studio of at lease 600 sf?
HDB 3-room flat is only 6xx sf leh
Suppose two tenants will have to share one mailbox.
brothers here got heard of the dual key apartment or not leh ?
They have 2 entrances. One to a room and another to the main unit. The self-sufficient room works exactly like a standalone studio unit.
What do you think some owners will do for this kinda apartment? YES! very clever, they will start to rent them out. WOAHAHAHAHA
This will create a very vibrant mm market. that is why your humble brother here is considering mm units although initially I have a different opinion about them.
this type apartment just confirmed there is a demand for mms now.
It's because there's demand for MM that's why developers are building more, not the other way round.
real demand or just hype?
real demand or just hype?
Hype created to draw real demand?
Hi guys,
In your opinion, what is the SMALLEST size condo one should get for a family of 3? COuple with one kid. 3 bedder cost so much higher than 2 bedders. Is 2 bedders decent enough? Or must get at least 3 bedders? Thanks!
real demand or just hype?
real demand lar... wait till u see the rental yield for the top few MM developments in the market, sure tio stunned. But when more MM comes into the market, then hard to say liao. So buy MM muz be damn selective, chose those area with little competition
real demand lar... wait till u see the rental yield for the top few MM developments in the market, sure tio stunned. But when more MM comes into the market, then hard to say liao. So buy MM muz be damn selective, chose those area with little competition
Parc rosewood at woodlands have zero competition:D
Here is a real case:
Elder Sister bought a MM with husband at West Coast, happily married and stayed for 2 years, but cannot afford to buy a bigger unit to have baby.
Thanks,
Richard
Wow I heard that MM were really small but didn't know they were
so small, not enough room to make babies. Thats really small.
Thanks for warning us.
:)
Parc rosewood at woodlands have zero competition:D
Ya prospects not bad, what do you think of this development?
Just got sms 1rm 398k, 2rm 5xxk
Wow I heard that MM were really small but didn't know they were
so small, not enough room to make babies. Thats really small.
Thanks for warning us.
:)
IMO, 1 rm MM not possible for baby making. 2RM MM i think still possible
blackjack21trader
17-01-12, 06:49
Suppose two tenants will have to share one mailbox.
good pt u brought up. i think this can easily b solved by either changing the mailing address to the office address.
later MM units for 1/2 price
cant rent..b like hotel...security loose.
imagine rundown condition 5 yr..tenants no care
later MM units for 1/2 price
cant rent..b like hotel...security loose.
imagine rundown condition 5 yr..tenants no care
you believe that MM will suffer a greater correction in future compared to other properties?
Let me just share a real case. A friend trying to rent out his prime hot area hdb apartment opp EW line mrt, 10 mins to Orchard, 5rm asking 3.6k. Been weeks and only got interest from groups of China students, or 'band of brothers' motley crew of PRs and work permit holders. It is not easy to find decent family with kids renting. Joint income family probably rent private condos or apartments with security and some facilities.
Other friend with MM in east landed area no mrt not near main road easily rented out 2.3k in days.
Such is the reality from the ground. Take it or leave it...
Let me just share a real case. A friend trying to rent out his prime hot area hdb apartment opp EW line mrt, 10 mins to Orchard, 5rm asking 3.6k. Been weeks and only got interest from groups of China students, or 'band of brothers' motley crew of PRs and work permit holders. It is not easy to find decent family with kids renting. Joint income family probably rent private condos or apartments with security and some facilities.
Other friend with MM in east landed area no mrt not near main road easily rented out 2.3k in days.
Such is the reality from the ground. Take it or leave it...
isn't 3.6k for 5rm hdb kind of high? :confused:
isn't 3.6k for 5rm hdb kind of high? :confused:
Neighbouring units in same block rented around that.
Neighbouring units in same block rented around that.
wah really ah? that's very good leh haha.
wa.. huat ar.. :scared-4::scared-4::scared-4:
blackjack21trader
17-01-12, 19:10
wah really ah? that's very good leh haha.
that is why i say u guys are all mountain tortises lah..in Hong Kong, 180sqft goes for about HK7000 or about SGD 1100.
I know, you are saying cheaper than us. sure or not, read the floor area : 180sqft for studio located on RCR Hong Kong like Wanchai.
you know our studio is how big for smallest ? 380 sqft ?
i dun even feel like telling you about Tokyo or Shanghai.
blackjack21trader
17-01-12, 19:13
that is why i say u guys are all mountain tortises lah..in Hong Kong, 180sqft goes for about HK7000 or about SGD 1100.
I know, you are saying cheaper than us. sure or not, read the floor area : 180sqft for studio located on RCR Hong Kong like Wanchai.
you know our studio is how big for smallest ? 380 sqft ?
i dun even feel like telling you about Tokyo or Shanghai.
and this is the real reason why the Chinamen are buying up our D15. They are smart to avoid confrontation with the Indonesian in Newton lor.
WOAHAAAAAAAHAAAAA
later MM units for 1/2 price
cant rent..b like hotel...security loose.
imagine rundown condition 5 yr..tenants no care
If that's the case, HDB also like that lor, no security.
The table shows the "average" income of the top 10% - 20% is S$12,818, it is NOT the cut off point for top 20%. The cut off point is LOWER than that.
I can only estimate the cut off point.
You are right :o
good pt u brought up. i think this can easily b solved by either changing the mailing address to the office address.
It is safer to share mailbox with your landlord than with your colleagues.
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