View Full Version : If wife is sole hdb owner, spouse also cannot buy condo?r
Regulators
13-02-12, 13:56
my friend is In this situation. She owns an hdb flat in her own name after august 2010 , she subsequently got married and her husband wants to buy a condo. Hdb told her that her husband can't buy and said that his name has to be included as occupier in her flat. Currently his name not included as occupier so is hdb able to bind him under my sister's contract with hdb before she got married to him?
I think in hdb eyes this case is bordering on same line as 'fake divorce to own two hdb' kind of case. Why is the hubby not listed as joint owner if indeed is married? I doubt hdb accepts this kind of 'loosely coupled' family entity arrangement.
Theoretically he is right to think he is not currently binded by the wife agreement with hdb. But do they wanna risk getting the hdb confiscated especially now that you cant own hdb flat after buying private, and hdb flat has become rare commodity?
Having said that i do think hdb needs to revise their policy especially now that people get married late. Either make single eligible only after 40 or allow concurrent ownership of both private and hdb immediately after ROM. To have more babies must encourage couples to have the means to afford better quality of life and or passive income stream right? Bringing up kids nowadays aint cheap.
Regulators
13-02-12, 14:35
His name not in the flat becoz when my friend bought the flat, she is still single.
Regulators
13-02-12, 14:41
She even told me she called hdb and they said she must put her husband's name as occupier in the flat. Hdb can do this sort of thing meh? If her husband tulan can't buy condo and divorce her, is hdb going to compensate her for distress?
my friend is In this situation. She owns an hdb flat in her own name after august 2010 , she subsequently got married and her husband wants to buy a condo. Hdb told her that her husband can't buy and said that his name has to be included as occupier in her flat. Currently his name not included as occupier so is hdb able to bind him under my sister's contract with hdb before she got married to him?Its your friend or your sister? Me confused... I understand that HDB is very sticky about such issues. If she is married before MOP is up, her husband will be subjected to the same ruling as her for the HDB ownership coz this is public housing.
His name not in the flat becoz when my friend bought the flat, she is still single.
In that case not sure if hdb mandate it that his name be added? From what you wrote it appears so. So there really is no loophole i believe. Seems like the hubby can buy condo BUT both must stay in hdb during MOP. Am not really expert in hdb so lets wait for more replies from bros and sis here.
She even told me she called hdb and they said she must put her husband's name as occupier in the flat. Hdb can do this sort of thing meh? If her husband tulan can't buy condo and divorce her, is hdb going to compensate her for distress?
In govt eyes, even though policies are meant to cultivate love and family, in reality marriage is just a means to start the property investment game. hdb is just a starting tool. They just dont want you to believe it. Therefore there is no such thing as distress to hdb and probably only opportunity cost which they will ill compensate you...
Regulators
13-02-12, 14:49
Actually my friend's sister, but I also know the sister, so considered my friend. Typed wrongly just now.
Its your friend or your sister? Me confused... I understand that HDB is very sticky about such issues. If she is married before MOP is up, her husband will be subjected to the same ruling as her for the HDB ownership coz this is public housing.
Regulators
13-02-12, 14:53
Actually hdb policies social engineer 80% of the society, as years go by, policies are getting worse.
Actually my friend's sister, but I also know the sister, so considered my friend. Typed wrongly just now.HDB already replied in no uncertain terms that there is no second way about this. So when you create this thread, are you trying to see if there are alternatives to this dilemma your friend is in? Two other ways around this but take it with a pinch of salt. 1. If husband is so rich and insist on PC, then let HDB take the flat back and lose the cash that's been paid thus far. 2. Annul the marriage and get his PC then come back and propose again (no joking matter)! I know of a friend who had to divorce his wife for some reason (not about HDB ownership) only to marry her again after everything was settled! It must be a mutual consensus between spouses...
HDB sometimes does make things very difficult for people although they keep encouraging people to have more and more children... :scared-3: Let's look at it this way. If that husband bought a PC 1 day before marrying the wife, then there's completely no issue... this is not even a case of cheating... :doh:
Regulators
13-02-12, 15:08
Which means to say her husband LL must wait out the MOP with her before he can even consider buying a pc. for the sake of discussion, her husband is not even a party to the contract with hdb, so if he really goes ahead to buy the condo let's say without his wife's knowledge, do you think hdb can under the law force his wife to sell the hdb flat? Hdb can hold her responsible for doing the wrong things against hdb regulation, but hdb can't hold hr responsible for her husband's actions I think. I am thinking is this a grey area...
Tell him dont play punk. Hdb is public housing subsidised with hard earned money of taxpayers you and me. Hdb is a rare privilege. Dont risk the highest yielding residential asset by type. No joke if you get blacklisted. Remember that if you get married whats mine is yours and whats yours is mine? So in reality the hubby also hdb owner Kekeke
Regulators
13-02-12, 15:21
I think they know, but just want to seek second opinion on the matter. If her husband's name not included as occupier in her flat, I do not think it is sure win for hdb even if they haul her to court. Again for the sake of discussion, if she married a foreign property investor based in the united states, is hdb going to force him to give up property investment in the united states and make him the occupier in his wife's hdb flat? Sounds ridiculous to me somehow.
Tell him dont play punk. Hdb is public housing subsidised with hard earned money of taxpayers you and me. Hdb is a rare privilege. Dont risk the highest yielding residential asset by type. No joke if you get blacklisted. Remember that if you get married whats mine is yours and whats yours is mine? So in reality the hubby also hdb owner Kekeke
I think they know, but just want to seek second opinion on the matter. If her husband's name not included as occupier in her flat, I do not think it is sure win for hdb even if they haul her to court. Again for the sake of discussion, if she married a foreign property investor based in the united states, is hdb going to force him to give up property investment in the united states and make him the occupier in his wife's hdb flat? Sounds ridiculous to me somehow.
This one bit too far fetched. If foreigner sorry dont fall under the jurisdiction. Ask the hubby go rescind Singapore citizenship lor and come back as a Malaysiam for eg. But oh that means extra 10% into govt pockets for the ABSD when he buy the PC... Oops
Regulators
13-02-12, 15:32
then hdb has double standard liao, marry foreigner then couple can own hdb n condo, marry singaporean spouse then cannot.
This one bit too far fetched. If foreigner sorry dont fall under the jurisdiction. Ask the hubby go rescind Singapore citizenship lor and come back as a Malaysiam for eg. But oh that means extra 10% into govt pockets for the ABSD when he buy the PC... Oops
then hdb has double standard liao, marry foreigner then couple can own hdb n condo, marry singaporean spouse then cannot.
Ya what... What ... You expect... Membership (in other countries) has its privileges.
Which means to say her husband LL must wait out the MOP with her before he can even consider buying a pc. for the sake of discussion, her husband is not even a party to the contract with hdb, so if he really goes ahead to buy the condo let's say without his wife's knowledge, do you think hdb can under the law force his wife to sell the hdb flat? Hdb can hold her responsible for doing the wrong things against hdb regulation, but hdb can't hold hr responsible for her husband's actions I think. I am thinking is this a grey area...This might potentially be a grey issue indeed... talk to a lawyer who might advise you better...
I think they know, but just want to seek second opinion on the matter. If her husband's name not included as occupier in her flat, I do not think it is sure win for hdb even if they haul her to court. Again for the sake of discussion, if she married a foreign property investor based in the united states, is hdb going to force him to give up property investment in the united states and make him the occupier in his wife's hdb flat? Sounds ridiculous to me somehow.If she married a US based property investor, HDB is probably too lousy and housing type for him liao so he might just forgo that house. Question remains if she marries a Malaysian who has a property left to him by his deceased parents. That would be interesting... :cheers6:
Regulators
13-02-12, 16:19
I remember back in uni days when we study law of contract, privity of contract states that a person not a party to the contract cannot have obligations imposed on him which is why I brought up this discussion in the first place. Are hdb lawyers going to argue that my friend's husband is party to the contract when he isn't? On what basis can hdb impose restrictions on her husband who is not a party to any contract with hdb? Is there a housing law that can stop him from buying condo just because his wife owns an hdb flat? Hdb regulations do not apply to him due to privity of contract.
This might potentially be a grey issue indeed... talk to a lawyer who might advise you better...
Regulators
13-02-12, 16:24
I think in the eyes of the law, hdb is still considered as an organisation that can sue and can be sued, so doesn't basic laws of contract still apply?
I think when you marry, you are entering into contract. And the marriage contract binds you to an earlier contract that your spouse have with HDB.
I remember back in uni days when we study law of contract, privity of contract states that a person not a party to the contract cannot have obligations imposed on him which is why I brought up this discussion in the first place. Are hdb lawyers going to argue that my friend's husband is party to the contract when he isn't? On what basis can hdb impose restrictions on her husband who is not a party to any contract with hdb? Is there a housing law that can stop him from buying condo just because his wife owns an hdb flat? Hdb regulations do not apply to him due to privity of contract.
Regulators
13-02-12, 16:43
if based on your reasoning, then any contract a person enters into that later bankrupts him, then his/her spouse can be declared bankrupt also just because marriage binds him to her previous contract? If marriage can bind a spouse to the hdb contract, then you are saying the spouse also has financial obligations and liabilities as the hdb owner which to me doesn't make any sense. There is no benefit assigned to him by hdb upon their marriage so what right has hdb to make him liable to a contract he is not a party to? The privity of contract issue has not been resolved.
I think when you marry, you are entering into contract. And the marriage contract binds you to an earlier contract that your spouse have with HDB.
Solution is to register girl's parent name as HDB joint owner. The husband is free to buy any PCs. Pls act fast b4 this loophole is closed.
Hi
Just curious if a married couple each own a HDB before marriage as they bought under the eligibility of age >35 and completed the MOP. They should be able to buy PC and rent out their HDB right? Unless they have to sell one HDB after marriage. Any sharing?
Regulators
13-02-12, 17:07
This is another grey area. Hdb cannot force the couple to change the substance of the old contracts just because they get married after each having bought their hdb flats before marriage. Especially if one spouse initially bought with parent under joint name.
Hi
Just curious if a married couple each own a HDB before marriage as they bought under the eligibility of age >35 and completed the MOP. They should be able to buy PC and rent out their HDB right? Unless they have to sell one HDB after marriage. Any sharing?
No, not for every contract... just HDB.
I mean, how did this question even arise? The husband could have just bought the PC without HDB knowledge or consent.
Is it possible that the wife was originally included in the purchase (maybe for financing) of the PC leading to a possible violation that got HDB alerted? Just guessing.. no offence.
It is a silly rule anyway
if based on your reasoning, then any contract a person enters into that later bankrupts him, then his/her spouse can be declared bankrupt also just because marriage binds him to her previous contract? If marriage can bind a spouse to the hdb contract, then you are saying the spouse also has financial obligations and liabilities as the hdb owner which to me doesn't make any sense. There is no benefit assigned to him by hdb upon their marriage so what right has hdb to make him liable to a contract he is not a party to? The privity of contract issue has not been resolved.
my friend is In this situation. She owns an hdb flat in her own name after august 2010 , she subsequently got married and her husband wants to buy a condo. Hdb told her that her husband can't buy and said that his name has to be included as occupier in her flat. Currently his name not included as occupier so is hdb able to bind him under my sister's contract with hdb before she got married to him?
Don't ask HDB, act blur go and buy. When you ask HDB they have no choice but to tell you cannot buy. They are also human, like you and me when come to policy "Policy cannot change". "Open one Eye, Close one eye" too many complain act act a bit.
Hi
Just curious if a married couple each own a HDB before marriage as they bought under the eligibility of age >35 and completed the MOP. They should be able to buy PC and rent out their HDB right? Unless they have to sell one HDB after marriage. Any sharing?Give them a break lah.. they'll be past 40 years old so should be able to enjoy some rental yields... :cheers5: Anyway they will probably be asked to sell one of the flats because they're now bound by a new contract under matrimonial laws. :cheers6:
Allow me to ask another question about HDB rules. My colleague's parents own a shophouse with a 2nd floor residential unit. During SERS, there's no more BTOs with shophouses so they cannot compensate with another shophouse but there's a residential unit so will they still get a normal residential unit? Think HDB told them they'll only be compensated in cash/cpf. So this old couple will lose a roof over their head? Selling a shophouse will not be sufficient for a normal 3 or 4 bedroom unit. Any sharing?
Regulators
13-02-12, 19:48
hdb don't know she married coz have not received letter from hdb to include her husband as occupier. She just want to err on the side of caution lest hdb force her or husband to sell off one of the properties after he buys. I also think no harm him acting blur and buying coz until hdb send them any letter, they have violated nothing. I don't even think heer contract with hdb even states her future husband cannot do that.
No, not for every contract... just HDB.
I mean, how did this question even arise? The husband could have just bought the PC without HDB knowledge or consent.
Is it possible that the wife was originally included in the purchase (maybe for financing) of the PC leading to a possible violation that got HDB alerted? Just guessing.. no offence.
It is a silly rule anyway
Mrs Tay (not her real name) has been the owner, together with her daughter, of a 3-room HDB flat for 16 years.
In 2005, she and her daughter were asked to select a replacement flat under the Selective En-Bloc Redevelopment Scheme (SERS).
Although her husband, a Malaysian working in Malaysia was not staying with her, she casually asked the HDB SERS officers whether he needs to be listed as an occupier.
She was advised that although it was not necessary, she may like to include him as he would occasionally come to stay with them, even though he did not even have a long-term visit pass.
In January this year, her new replacement flat was ready and they went to collect their keys.
During the keys collection, she casually enquired as to whether she should take her daughter’s name out, leaving herself and her son as the flat owners, because her daughter is married and living in Australia.
She was advised to fill a new form, to take her daughter’s name out, as she may want to buy her own flat in the future.
So, whilst completing the new form, they answered ‘yes’ truthfully to the question that her Malaysian husband had bought a property in Malaysia after the SERS announcement in 2005.
They were then told that they had breached the condition that no listed occupier are allowed to buy a private property in Singapore or a foreign country.
They have no flat now, and were compensated with $192,000 for having given up her flat under SERS.
A 3-room resale flat in her area now cost more than $400,000.
They have appealed to their Member of Parliament and HDB over the last six months or so, but to no avail.
Their last letter of appeal to HDB in July, ended with the following sentence:-
“We (my son, my husband and myself) can and want to serve and contribute to Singapore for many more years. This is our home, we love what we are doing, which is beneficial to society. So, please look into our request favourably, and grant us the home which we are about to lose”.
Even at the new flat keys collection, the Malaysian husband is also not absolutely required to be listed as an occupier, as the flat’s owners are Mrs Tay and her son.
There was also some confusion as Mrs Tay’s daughter wrote that in a letter from the HDB on the SERS replacement flat, it was advised that owners of private property were not eligible for a HDB loan. So, one may have been confused into thinking that it was alright to own a private property to get a SERS flat, but not a HDB loan only.
In fact, owners of a HDB flat for more than five years have been allowed to own private property at the same time provided they stay in the HDB flat. So, since this was the rule at the time of the SERS in 2005, wouldn’t it be confusing as some may not realize that a new condition on private property ownership was imposed.
If you take a person’s flat away and give him/her a new replacement, is it fair to impose this new condition, which would not be there had he/she continued to own the flat, if not for being “forced” to En-Bloc?
Her husband has given up his ownership of the Malaysian property to appeal to the HDB, but has been rejected.
"Policy cannot change"
http://theonlinecitizen.com/2011/09/hdb-sers-family-loses-flat-of-16-years-over-technicality/
Yup... I would go for it... HDB would never know unless tipped off. And don't ask otherwise HDB would be forced to comply with the rules.
Btw, the problem lies with the concept of the matimonial home. Since they are staying in the HDB, it is by default their matrimonial home. This means the spouse whether or not registered has a stake in the house.
my friend is In this situation. She owns an hdb flat in her own name after august 2010 , she subsequently got married and her husband wants to buy a condo. Hdb told her that her husband can't buy and said that his name has to be included as occupier in her flat. Currently his name not included as occupier so is hdb able to bind him under my sister's contract with hdb before she got married to him?
Tell her not to fill any form from HDB before getting some expert advise.
Moral of Mrs Tay story is Never CASUALLY sign anything. In fact rule of life never do anything CASUALLY including eating sleeping, (+sleeping around) and farting in public...
Regulators
13-02-12, 22:35
Yes, have to wary of forms
Tell her not to fill any form from HDB before getting some expert advise.
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