View Full Version : Taxman is after me for CAPITAL GAINS
WTF???
Any of you bro kena before? Any advice?
i know sg do not have tax for capital gain...
i also can't give much advice too .. :(
hope other members can shed some info. to share.. :cool:
Just curious, how many properties did you sell off in the last 3 years?
Just curious, how many properties did you sell off in the last 3 years?
Some were relatives borrow my name to flip one. Shit la... In total sold off about 7 from 2007 to date.
ikan bilis
24-02-12, 19:36
hahaha... flipper die pain pain.... kena marked and picked on by iras liow... :D
wow!!... 7x from 2007... wanna appeal also like difficult leh.... :scared-3:
Some were relatives borrow my name to flip one. Shit la... In total sold off about 7 from 2007 to date.
If the bill comes, you might need to pass it to your relatives.
hahaha... flipper die pain pain.... kena marked and picked on by iras liow... :D
wow!!... 7x from 2007... wanna appeal also like difficult leh.... :scared-3:
Is it... Die c*** stand this time liao lor cryyyyy
If the bill comes, you might need to pass it to your relatives.
Capital gain tax is follow income tax rate? Can enforce retrospectively one ma??
This is considered trading. Typically if you hold property for a while before selling, it is considered investment. But when you flip too many times, gains from this will be taxed.
ikan bilis
24-02-12, 19:43
Is it... Die c*** stand this time liao lor cryyyyy
read one news last time... very interesting... judge accept reason of bad fengshui for selling/trading the condo and no capital gain tax.... have fun reading... ;)
http://www.asiaone.com/Business/My%2BMoney/Property/Story/A1Story20070907-24502.html
buttercarp
24-02-12, 19:45
Capital gain tax is follow income tax rate? Can enforce retrospectively one ma??
Can.... many years ago can still dig up one.
Read this from iras
http://www.iras.gov.sg/irasHome/page04.aspx?id=152
Read this from iras
http://www.iras.gov.sg/irasHome/page04.aspx?id=152
Yes i know about this. One really will not know what criteria is in their "deem"...
Astronotus oscellatus
24-02-12, 20:17
If IRAS wants to dig,they can dig seven years back.
Pay a tax consultant to do for you, they are very innovative...but expensive, I think $1000 per hour, and dunno how many hours they will spend on your case.
But if taxes due is more than that may be worth it,
If not, then just accept what IRAS wants to charge, may be easier on your heart.
ikan bilis
24-02-12, 20:21
haha.... look at the brighter side lah... at least now you are upgraded to a big big fish that iras going after you... you must be very rich... :cheers4:
iras never try to catch tiny ikan-bilis fish like me... :ashamed1:
buttercarp
24-02-12, 20:23
haha.... look at the brighter side lah... at least now you are upgraded to a big big fish that iras going after you... you must be very rich... :cheers4:
iras never try to catch tiny ikan-bilis fish like me... :ashamed1:
But better not try them, cos sometimes, they crave for ikan bilis too.
phantom_opera
24-02-12, 20:47
Just pay lah ... you cannot win one ... considered trading not capital gain... I kuai kuai paid when trading shares also
A word of warning ... if your trading income is about 50% of your regular working income ... it is a matter of time
Look at it at the bright side, it is good karma to donate part of your profit towards nation building
ikan bilis
24-02-12, 20:57
this 1 must get relative to pay up the capital gain tax.... not small sum... :simmering:
for me... i will not lend my name to relatives for property purchase...
- if suay suay property crash 30%, relatives could "run road"...
- property tax, maintenance and etc, must chase them for payment
- other liabilities: for e.g. someone get hurt/injured inside the condo...
- getting around with some restrictions (for e.g. hdb mop), might ended with some bigger problem next...
:scared-3:
anyway, if tax really comes.... appeal to get 1 or 2 items struck off first... :beats-me-man:
haha.... look at the brighter side lah... at least now you are upgraded to a big big fish that iras going after you... you must be very rich... :cheers4:
iras never try to catch tiny ikan-bilis fish like me... :ashamed1:
I malso an ikan bilis. But received a ltr fm them asking me about my rental property income & expenses. Lucky i declare everything.:) :scared-3:
Some were relatives borrow my name to flip one. Shit la... In total sold off about 7 from 2007 to date.
How come ur relatives borrowed ur name, easier to get loan coz of ur age?
Siao liao lor, hope ur relatives willing to pay their share of the taxes.
Apart from those hard figures, there are soft factors which a good essay writing (or story tell) will at least help you to reduce the number of units you need to pay.
Reasons for acquiring and selling of property(Fengshui, gift to relative - need to prove they have done some great for you)
Financial means to hold the property for long term(No intention to trade. Sell is for other reasons)
Thanks,
Richard
PS. Never got the chance to have this kind of "good" problem, so just trying to 2nd guess how the Taxman "deem".
If you are not married, you can say u bought the MM for your GF (and get cheated away for the money), so that unit can be exempted.
Suggest you start with Form F, so you know potentially which is the most expensive unit you want to defense.
Rank them by holding period, so you have a risk adjusted amount u are likely to pay.
To keep the damage to min (and give some face to Taxman), they should give some face as well.
Thanks,
Richard
WTF???
Any of you bro kena before? Any advice?
IRAS will look at the circumstances under which you bought and sold each property. The "badges of trade" analysis is used to determine if the activities can be considered as trading (and hence taxable).
The six badges of trade are: (a) subject matter of realization, (b) frequency of similar transactions, (c) supplemental work on the property realized, (d) motive, (e) circumstances responsible for the realization and (f) length of period of ownership.
No one factor is conclusive.
See: http://www.iras.gov.sg/irasHome/page04.aspx?id=152
From the limited info you mentioned (7 sales & purchases since 2007), it might be difficult to justify capital transactions. Again, it depends on the various factors above, as well as others such as how many properties you hold at any one time .
tough luck to ts! must have caused you lots of anxiety and headache!
actually i saw this form 3 times in 3 friends. 2 of them are totally cleared, with no addon tax; the 3rd is still pending.
the 1st friend - got letter addressed to wife to show where the purchase income was from (cos she is a housewife and got expensive properties - with buy and sell). they just listed down all the sales and purchases to show the cashflow and sources of income.
the 2nd friend got it as part of audit of income tax - btw to also account for purchase and sales within short period. that period appeared short on iras record, cos lodging of caveat by friend is later and lodging by buyer is nearer. explained that bought for investment and sold because realised facing etc about unit not good.
the 3rd friend is like you - bought maybe 2? and lent name for 2? so just listed down all the facts along with reasons. the other borrower has agreed to pay the respective tax.
your relatives who used your name must of course pay for their share of the revised tax. tell them first. even with revised tax under you, they still gain, cos otherwise under their name, they may be taxed under an even higher bracket. they should pay this tax cos afterall they already made so much during the runup; just take it as a slightly smaller profit.
as a general rule, if you buy for stay or even to invest (for a certain duration or even up to renting out), then it will be quite safe. follow the earlier 2 posts of richwang and silver023 to write out your reply. write out a mini-essay for each of them, detailing your investment reasons / thinkings, plans and why you need to sell off, etc (including financial, cashflow, etc) and backup with facts and evidences (if any), etc. iras will be quite fair. if finally you got to pay, then you got to pay.
if you need more time to write your series of mini-essays, then ask for more time. make sure you get all the transaction details as well as dates correct too. outcome will not be fast, takes more than 6 months, maybe 9 months. meanwhile you should try not to sell any more units in your possession, cos this will further confirm your trader status. hope the above sharing is useful to ease your mind; already too much sensitive info on open forum.
Bro,
It will help to draw up a flowchart that depicts the flow of funds. Reinvestment is a key criteria that they use to determine the nature of your purchases/sales. Capital gains from buying and selling as part of investment strategy (funds should be continuously reinvested instead of taken out for consumption/supplementary income) are not taxable, however gains from buying and selling as part of trading/income-generation are.
tough luck to ts! must have caused you lots of anxiety and headache!
actually i saw this form 3 times in 3 friends. 2 of them are totally cleared, with no addon tax; the 3rd is still pending.
the 1st friend - got letter addressed to wife to show where the purchase income was from (cos she is a housewife and got expensive properties - with buy and sell). they just listed down all the sales and purchases to show the cashflow and sources of income.
the 2nd friend got it as part of audit of income tax - btw to also account for purchase and sales within short period. that period appeared short on iras record, cos lodging of caveat by friend is later and lodging by buyer is nearer. explained that bought for investment and sold because realised facing etc about unit not good.
the 3rd friend is like you - bought maybe 2? and lent name for 2? so just listed down all the facts along with reasons. the other borrower has agreed to pay the respective tax.
your relatives who used your name must of course pay for their share of the revised tax. tell them first. even with revised tax under you, they still gain, cos otherwise under their name, they may be taxed under an even higher bracket. they should pay this tax cos afterall they already made so much during the runup; just take it as a slightly smaller profit.
as a general rule, if you buy for stay or even to invest (for a certain duration or even up to renting out), then it will be quite safe. follow the earlier 2 posts of richwang and silver023 to write out your reply. write out a mini-essay for each of them, detailing your investment reasons / thinkings, plans and why you need to sell off, etc (including financial, cashflow, etc) and backup with facts and evidences (if any), etc. iras will be quite fair. if finally you got to pay, then you got to pay.
if you need more time to write your series of mini-essays, then ask for more time. make sure you get all the transaction details as well as dates correct too. outcome will not be fast, takes more than 6 months, maybe 9 months. meanwhile you should try not to sell any more units in your possession, cos this will further confirm your trader status. hope the above sharing is useful to ease your mind; already too much sensitive info on open forum.
I also receive this letter few yrs ago. I think their concern is more on where you get the source of funding of your properties.
What I did was to photocopy all the supporting documents on the sales proceeds of the units sold, (Proof of profit received), the bank loan taken for each of them as well as to provide a valid reason for selling each of them. All was cleared with no questions asked after that.
In my opinion, I think this could be probably triggered when the IRAS annual income declaration does not substantiate to you owning the number of properties & the general funding of them.
Hope this helps.
How come ur relatives borrowed ur name, easier to get loan coz of ur age?
Siao liao lor, hope ur relatives willing to pay their share of the taxes.
Spouse of a sibling use me name to circumvent the 5 year hdb mop sia! Dunno how to make a case around it. Especially if the in-law turn around and accused me of turnover too many properties thats why drag them into this and not fair to them. Boy this has family wellbeing implications. But i think a name is not just any name it is worth something so if you wanted to use mine you have to bear the risk and pay the dues if need be lor... Coz like some of the bro and sis here say, there are implications and risks if your name used by others for property investment...
this 1 must get relative to pay up the capital gain tax.... not small sum... :simmering:
for me... i will not lend my name to relatives for property purchase...
- if suay suay property crash 30%, relatives could "run road"...
- property tax, maintenance and etc, must chase them for payment
- other liabilities: for e.g. someone get hurt/injured inside the condo...
- getting around with some restrictions (for e.g. hdb mop), might ended with some bigger problem next...
:scared-3:
anyway, if tax really comes.... appeal to get 1 or 2 items struck off first... :beats-me-man:
The suay thing is the relative unit is the one who turned around with biggest hugest profit of I think roughly $300k. I didn't take a single cent. Not even the thank you lunch offered. Now looking back thank god I never.
For my own units all the profits were put back into the few that I currently hold. Staying in one, rented out one.
IRAS will look at the circumstances under which you bought and sold each property. The "badges of trade" analysis is used to determine if the activities can be considered as trading (and hence taxable).
The six badges of trade are: (a) subject matter of realization, (b) frequency of similar transactions, (c) supplemental work on the property realized, (d) motive, (e) circumstances responsible for the realization and (f) length of period of ownership.
No one factor is conclusive.
See: http://www.iras.gov.sg/irasHome/page04.aspx?id=152
From the limited info you mentioned (7 sales & purchases since 2007), it might be difficult to justify capital transactions. Again, it depends on the various factors above, as well as others such as how many properties you hold at any one time .
This is very useful thanks bro. At the most instance i had was holding on to 3 properties. All the sales were with good reasons (physical and environmental changes beyond my control such as new projects suddenly spring up and construction began lasting right into the night, etc). Also personal circumstances changed such as job and work location (one end of island to the other end). That period is property run up period - so if I sold any it would usually 99% of the time have been profitable according to market rate. How can that be trading? Most were held for at least 1 year. And it is a fact I mostly only go for properties that are near TOP coz the intention is for own stay. If I wanted max profit I would have gone for new launches instead and not bought subsale...
Thanks all kind bros and sis here for your advice. Truly appreciated. I managed to type out 80% of my cases last night. My sleep wasn't affected. It just took me like 5 mins slower to enter sleep. Anyhow I have until end March to justify my case. But the feeling is sucks. Deemed guilty already even before proven innocent...
Now look at the worse case scenario (typical of me, always plan for the worse in any crisis situation).
If say I kena tax bill of few hundred K, I definitely have no spare cash to pay for that. What will be the course of action? IRAS take me to court? Force sell my properties? In 6-9 months down the road, the market tanks, how to even be able to make extra after force sell to be able to have the $ to pay them even so?
Worse come to worse, sell all. Buy fully paid HDB (why should I buy govt housing after the way they corner me just to get me to pay them more salary - hey, I pay my income and property taxes without fail every time ok! I pay my dues), then if still have spare bullets buy one MM after that as investment. This situation then would have been the same if they hadn't introduce the stupid ruling months before I turn 35 that cause me unable to purchase hdb after owning private property! Talk about the irony... back to square one.
The fact of the matter is, and I have always told every one and anyone who asked, I would NEVER have bought private property if they allowed a single younger than 35 to buy hdb.
Yah sg housing policy very anti singles one. :simmering:
tough luck to ts! must have caused you lots of anxiety and headache!
actually i saw this form 3 times in 3 friends. 2 of them are totally cleared, with no addon tax; the 3rd is still pending.
the 1st friend - got letter addressed to wife to show where the purchase income was from (cos she is a housewife and got expensive properties - with buy and sell). they just listed down all the sales and purchases to show the cashflow and sources of income.
the 2nd friend got it as part of audit of income tax - btw to also account for purchase and sales within short period. that period appeared short on iras record, cos lodging of caveat by friend is later and lodging by buyer is nearer. explained that bought for investment and sold because realised facing etc about unit not good.
the 3rd friend is like you - bought maybe 2? and lent name for 2? so just listed down all the facts along with reasons. the other borrower has agreed to pay the respective tax.
your relatives who used your name must of course pay for their share of the revised tax. tell them first. even with revised tax under you, they still gain, cos otherwise under their name, they may be taxed under an even higher bracket. they should pay this tax cos afterall they already made so much during the runup; just take it as a slightly smaller profit.
as a general rule, if you buy for stay or even to invest (for a certain duration or even up to renting out), then it will be quite safe. follow the earlier 2 posts of richwang and silver023 to write out your reply. write out a mini-essay for each of them, detailing your investment reasons / thinkings, plans and why you need to sell off, etc (including financial, cashflow, etc) and backup with facts and evidences (if any), etc. iras will be quite fair. if finally you got to pay, then you got to pay.
if you need more time to write your series of mini-essays, then ask for more time. make sure you get all the transaction details as well as dates correct too. outcome will not be fast, takes more than 6 months, maybe 9 months. meanwhile you should try not to sell any more units in your possession, cos this will further confirm your trader status. hope the above sharing is useful to ease your mind; already too much sensitive info on open forum.
bro/sis Lifeline - you really are my Life line!!! thanks so much for sharing your experience of your friends. It was truly truly very helpful. My day has become way sunnier when I woke up to read your message... though the gloom threatens to cloud over probably for the next few couple of months... :(
This situation then would have been the same if they hadn't introduce the stupid ruling months before I turn 35 that cause me unable to purchase hdb after owning private property! Talk about the irony... back to square one.
The fact of the matter is, and I have always told every one and anyone who asked, I would NEVER have bought private property if they allowed a single younger than 35 to buy hdb.
thanks for sharing what happen back then..
this post worth alot to me as a single and yet 35 dude.. :o
If you are not married, you can say u bought the MM for your GF (and get cheated away for the money), so that unit can be exempted.
Suggest you start with Form F, so you know potentially which is the most expensive unit you want to defense.
Rank them by holding period, so you have a risk adjusted amount u are likely to pay.
To keep the damage to min (and give some face to Taxman), they should give some face as well.
Thanks,
Richard
Thanks for sharing your advice and point of view.. you always have interesting (yet still valid) view point (the part on give face) :)
thanks for sharing what happen back then..
this post worth alot to me as a single and yet 35 dude.. :o
Welcome.. I really feel thankful that I joined this forum. It is easily one of the bestest decision I had ever made - best bester bestest. The amount and quality of mindshare here is just unbelievable.
If I may sum up myself, I was 'caught surprised by policy changes but still tried to make things work out.
thanks for sharing what happen back then..
this post worth alot to me as a single and yet 35 dude.. :o
Ya! Totally agreed. Silly policy. :sleep:
But better not try them, cos sometimes, they crave for ikan bilis too.
I confirm no big fish. All profits add up not even over 1mil. Sorry don't mean to scare some of your smaller fishies here but I really also only small fish that's why I got a rude shock receiving this notice.
I am beginning to suspect politics have all to do with this. The news article from AsiaOne quoted case was back in 1988-1996, that period was a bear period. Probably raise the alarm coz of the amount of profits the couple was making buy sell bungalows. But 2007 to now is a bull run-up period. No reason why alarms will be flagged - unless there is a specific need to either
1) Gahmen agencies are given ultimatum to buck up or else - buck up to rake in more money for the coffers. I don't care how you do it - just scoop up every darn fish in the pond and even long kangs. We need all the bullets to win the next election
2) We (gahmen) have to do exactly what the loud and impatient new age of voters want - take from the 'rich' and give back to the 'poor'! Chase away all those foreigners and asset rich and investors. Give priority to first timer and those without property to their name. But STOP AT TWO. Own one and rent out one max max. NO MORE THAN TWO.
Maybe I'm being overly paranoid but I can't help thinking there is political motivation beyond all these recent actions and changes and shows by ministers and politicians.
mcmlxxvi, would this affect your next investment decision?
1) as in holding properties for longer term?
2) buying 1 bigger quantum property rather than 2 smaller quantum property?
devilplate
25-02-12, 10:33
mcmlxxvi, would this affect your next investment decision?
1) as in holding properties for longer term?
2) buying 1 bigger quantum property rather than 2 smaller quantum property?
Ppty meant to buy and keep long term wat....only those jialat jialat ppty den u sell lor....like very poor built quality or u nid to upgrade or downgrade.....
U buy pay 3% bsd, flip pay so many overheads.....legal fees, bank penalty, comm.....den buy back kena bsd again......make govt, bank and ppty agts so much richer nia and den few yrs later slam u wif ppty gain tax.....lol
Ppty meant to buy and keep long term wat....only those jialat jialat ppty den u sell lor....like very poor built quality or u nid to upgrade or downgrade.....
U buy pay 3% bsd, flip pay so many overheads.....legal fees, bank penalty, comm.....den buy back kena bsd again......make govt, bank and ppty agts so much richer nia and den few yrs later slam u wif ppty gain tax.....lol
That's right bro... after deducting all the comms, taxes, loan interest etc actually the net profit not much. Guess IRAS may let me off this time... not much 'profit' in real actually...
Lesson learnt lor... too bad learnt the hard way. If necessary declare bankrupt... :P
mcmlxxvi, would this affect your next investment decision?
1) as in holding properties for longer term?
2) buying 1 bigger quantum property rather than 2 smaller quantum property?
bro hopeful, I been subconsiously pondering on that too... but probably I don't dare to have any 'action' in the near future. coz most my bullets are stuck in the current ones I holding on to... to make a move I have to 'sell' something so that will trigger another tax alarm.
Let me think out loud the possible scenarios:
A) IRAS let me off this time, tax me only on one or two properties, so I can still survive continue holding on to my current ones. Since the introduction of ABSD, I never intend to sell any of the ones I'm holding right now anyway, so just as well additional imperative to hold for own stay, rental yield long term.
B) IRAS tax me on perhaps half of the all the properties. In this case, because I'm not big fish, I have to sell off one of my property in order to pay the tax. (Heck, they already brand me as trader - so might as well sell another one - or would they slap me on capital gains for this one that I sold in order to pay them back???) Or I move back with my family and rent out the current one I staying in to pay IRAS back via monthly installments.
C) IRAS tax me on ALL the properties. I get a say 300k tax bill. In this case, I may sell off two of the properties to pay off. Again, subject to whether they gonna capital gains tax me again on these two 'fire sales'. If they are, then there is no end to this. Therefore I will have to appeal for a fair treatment or declare bankrupt. I believe if declare bankrupt, they will at least force sell all or the necessary properties in order to recover the 'lost' tax, but remainder they will let me keep it, plus they won't capital tax again on the forced sales (cause logically then they have to tax themselves for forcing the sale!). After that I can finally buy my HDB (hopefully maybe can fully pay up this one) and then slowly work on a MM for investment / rental yield.
But they are still not dealing with the issue of biggest cause of inflation of all times in Singapore - REITS! These are the ones jacking up all commercial, industrial, business, office rental costs and causing the big inflation! The introduction of residential private properties cooling measures like those 4-years SSD and 10% ABSD etc are driving most citizens, PRs and foreigners' investors to office, industrial, commercial properties! Help the REITS to jack up their properties values even more? :beats-me-man:
You can help by telling everybody about this, that they only know how to tackle small fish like the individual residential private property owners? :p
After that see whether they can still win votes? :tongue3:
Shouldn't they be just helping HDB flats buyers instead by allowing them to own a cheap 1st hand HDB flats? :simmering:
I confirm no big fish. All profits add up not even over 1mil. Sorry don't mean to scare some of your smaller fishies here but I really also only small fish that's why I got a rude shock receiving this notice.
I am beginning to suspect politics have all to do with this. The news article from AsiaOne quoted case was back in 1988-1996, that period was a bear period. Probably raise the alarm coz of the amount of profits the couple was making buy sell bungalows. But 2007 to now is a bull run-up period. No reason why alarms will be flagged - unless there is a specific need to either
1) Gahmen agencies are given ultimatum to buck up or else - buck up to rake in more money for the coffers. I don't care how you do it - just scoop up every darn fish in the pond and even long kangs. We need all the bullets to win the next election
2) We (gahmen) have to do exactly what the loud and impatient new age of voters want - take from the 'rich' and give back to the 'poor'! Chase away all those foreigners and asset rich and investors. Give priority to first timer and those without property to their name. But STOP AT TWO. Own one and rent out one max max. NO MORE THAN TWO.
Maybe I'm being overly paranoid but I can't help thinking there is political motivation beyond all these recent actions and changes and shows by ministers and politicians.
Highlight the below in RED to IRAS! :D Coffeeshop talk is they all wayang, try to drive people to buy new launch private instead of resale, drive them to commercial, office, etc... :beats-me-man:
This is very useful thanks bro. At the most instance i had was holding on to 3 properties. All the sales were with good reasons (physical and environmental changes beyond my control such as new projects suddenly spring up and construction began lasting right into the night, etc). Also personal circumstances changed such as job and work location (one end of island to the other end). That period is property run up period - so if I sold any it would usually 99% of the time have been profitable according to market rate. How can that be trading? Most were held for at least 1 year. And it is a fact I mostly only go for properties that are near TOP coz the intention is for own stay. If I wanted max profit I would have gone for new launches instead and not bought subsale...
Think on the positive side, it is very lucky that they forbid those younger than 35 years old to buy HDB else you won't have generated so much profit as you are now! I think you are very lucky out of it due to their policy! :D
Thanks all kind bros and sis here for your advice. Truly appreciated. I managed to type out 80% of my cases last night. My sleep wasn't affected. It just took me like 5 mins slower to enter sleep. Anyhow I have until end March to justify my case. But the feeling is sucks. Deemed guilty already even before proven innocent...
Now look at the worse case scenario (typical of me, always plan for the worse in any crisis situation).
If say I kena tax bill of few hundred K, I definitely have no spare cash to pay for that. What will be the course of action? IRAS take me to court? Force sell my properties? In 6-9 months down the road, the market tanks, how to even be able to make extra after force sell to be able to have the $ to pay them even so?
Worse come to worse, sell all. Buy fully paid HDB (why should I buy govt housing after the way they corner me just to get me to pay them more salary - hey, I pay my income and property taxes without fail every time ok! I pay my dues), then if still have spare bullets buy one MM after that as investment. This situation then would have been the same if they hadn't introduce the stupid ruling months before I turn 35 that cause me unable to purchase hdb after owning private property! Talk about the irony... back to square one.
The fact of the matter is, and I have always told every one and anyone who asked, I would NEVER have bought private property if they allowed a single younger than 35 to buy hdb.
Relax, don't worry so much. IRAS bill property capital gain tax can play "taji" one because quite subjective. If really tax you say not enough cash lor. Find a lawyer friend to help and play "taiji". Can drag for a while (a few years), market up further and sell at better price then pay them back. Actually, the best is yet to be. Wait till late 2013-2015 big time boom! (Caveat: Those buying new launch will not enjoy much of the boom since they already paying 40-60% more than resale market price in their neighbourhood! Their premium will drop to ZERO after they take over their completed property! :p) :cheers3:
Thanks all kind bros and sis here for your advice. Truly appreciated. I managed to type out 80% of my cases last night. My sleep wasn't affected. It just took me like 5 mins slower to enter sleep. Anyhow I have until end March to justify my case. But the feeling is sucks. Deemed guilty already even before proven innocent...
Now look at the worse case scenario (typical of me, always plan for the worse in any crisis situation).
If say I kena tax bill of few hundred K, I definitely have no spare cash to pay for that. What will be the course of action? IRAS take me to court? Force sell my properties? In 6-9 months down the road, the market tanks, how to even be able to make extra after force sell to be able to have the $ to pay them even so?
Worse come to worse, sell all. Buy fully paid HDB (why should I buy govt housing after the way they corner me just to get me to pay them more salary - hey, I pay my income and property taxes without fail every time ok! I pay my dues), then if still have spare bullets buy one MM after that as investment. This situation then would have been the same if they hadn't introduce the stupid ruling months before I turn 35 that cause me unable to purchase hdb after owning private property! Talk about the irony... back to square one.
The fact of the matter is, and I have always told every one and anyone who asked, I would NEVER have bought private property if they allowed a single younger than 35 to buy hdb.
HDB should go and catch those illegal sublet units without approval. We are already contributing so much to the nation in various forms by paying tax, stamp fees, GST, ERP, etc while the hdb owners are milking the system and enjoying the perts.
Flippers beware! The taxman is on your tails. Those who flipped a lot for themselves and their relatives within the past 7 years better start thinking how to write the mini-essays now. ;)
U shall write to IRAS and ask them
why profit on selling of shares is not taxable?
selling of shares is so much more frequent
Relax, don't worry so much. IRAS bill property capital gain tax can play "taji" one because quite subjective. If really tax you say not enough cash lor. Find a lawyer friend to help and play "taiji". Can drag for a while (a few years), market up further and sell at better price then pay them back. Actually, the best is yet to be. Wait till late 2013-2015 big time boom! (Caveat: Those buying new launch will not enjoy much of the boom since they already paying 40-60% more than resale market price in their neighbourhood! Their premium will drop to ZERO after they take over their completed property! :p) :cheers3:
Thanks bro teddy... despite bear in your nick you forever bull... i like .... haha... thanks for giving me hope la. But I rather play safe... don't hope too high wait kena another rude shock...
HDB should go and catch those illegal sublet units without approval. We are already contributing so much to the nation in various forms by paying tax, stamp fees, GST, ERP, etc while the hdb owners are milking the system and enjoying the perts.
Guess what... I was one of the rental scam victims... 3k just gone like that... reported the lessee also to no avail....
I think I really very the lucky... this year maybe major fan tai sui
U shall write to IRAS and ask them
why profit on selling of shares is not taxable?
selling of shares is so much more frequent
I have the exact same thought as you.... until I read another bro here wrote that he already kena capital gains tax on sale of shares.... so I don't really think they leave any stone unturned sia!
Maybe for stocks you must gain like 500k over 2 years then 'eligible' for call up...
But they are still not dealing with the issue of biggest cause of inflation of all times in Singapore - REITS! These are the ones jacking up all commercial, industrial, business, office rental costs and causing the big inflation! The introduction of residential private properties cooling measures like those 4-years SSD and 10% ABSD etc are driving most citizens, PRs and foreigners' investors to office, industrial, commercial properties! Help the REITS to jack up their properties values even more? :beats-me-man:
You can help by telling everybody about this, that they only know how to tackle small fish like the individual residential private property owners? :p
After that see whether they can still win votes? :tongue3:
Shouldn't they be just helping HDB flats buyers instead by allowing them to own a cheap 1st hand HDB flats? :simmering:
By bringing what the gahmen is doing to us law abiding citizens behind the scenes to public here in this forum doesn't mean I am anti PAP. It just means that some of their practices, motivations and agendas are questionable and REALLY SHOULD BE TAKEN TO TASK. Especially when policies are incongruent to each other and often are contradicting each other...
On one hand they wanna show they treasure local citizens more over FT. One the other hand they whack you behind your back for being too capable of earning money due to good timing and luck during market run-up...
Flippers beware! The taxman is on your tails. Those who flipped a lot for themselves and their relatives within the past 7 years better start thinking how to write the mini-essays now. ;)
Ya la... at least the discussion here already provided you some background and knowledge on how to better handle such situations. And always be true to your heart and if you nothing to hide no need to fear...
I believe there is also anti money laundering motives behind...
phantom_opera
25-02-12, 13:53
Don't play play with IRAS ... they can freeze your accounts and bar you from leaving Singapore overnight :scared-5:
Just put it this way ... what is so good about being blacklisted by IRAS if you try all out to save 20k tax per year ... years ago, a couple won in the court to avoid being taxed for one out of many properties .... heh heh heh ... i will never dare to bring taxman to court for that matter :scared-3:
Who is the most powerful gov agency in Singapore ... it is the IRAS :rolleyes:
blackjack21trader
25-02-12, 13:53
Just pay lah ... you cannot win one ... considered trading not capital gain... I kuai kuai paid when trading shares also
A word of warning ... if your trading income is about 50% of your regular working income ... it is a matter of time
Look at it at the bright side, it is good karma to donate part of your profit towards nation building
Yes la... follow phantom_opera brother's advice. Even for myself, I carefully keep records of all my stock transaction. And kuai kuai report when there's even a little gain. My friends said never mind one la. I dun care just report hor. IRA will then decide if they want to tax you lor. It is up to the taxman hor... not us. It is only fair mah.
神龙股侠。
devilplate
25-02-12, 14:32
So hor, remortgage is a gd strategy rite? For those whose ppty value up alot and tinking off cash out to buy more can actually consider remortgage.....
But hor, banker told me cannot use the term loan to buy another ppty anymore!
Sell scare kena taxman call.....remortgage also cannot....wah really trying to narrow the income gap
ikan bilis
25-02-12, 14:49
Don't play play with IRAS ... they can freeze your accounts and bar you from leaving Singapore overnight :scared-5:
Just put it this way ... what is so good about being blacklisted by IRAS if you try all out to save 20k tax per year ... years ago, a couple won in the court to avoid being taxed for one out of many properties .... heh heh heh ... i will never dare to bring taxman to court for that matter :scared-3:
Who is the most powerful gov agency in Singapore ... it is the IRAS :rolleyes:
in usa, FBI could not even touch some gangster boss, but their irs/iras could jail him...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Capone
in korea, iras will keep coming to you for all sorts of tax issues if you bought some foreign car... so their car market is very protected...
here hor, heard got people cannot come back to sgp bcoz of need to avoid iras... heard like got some opposition guys also...
=> so, YES! don't ever play-play with mighty iras ... :scared-4: :D
ikan bilis
25-02-12, 14:57
So hor, remortgage is a gd strategy rite? For those whose ppty value up alot and tinking off cash out to buy more can actually consider remortgage.....
But hor, banker told me cannot use the term loan to buy another ppty anymore!
Sell scare kena taxman call.....remortgage also cannot....wah really trying to narrow the income gap
umm... how the banks control you not to buy another property ??..
when using equity loan,... you took out in cash mah... why can;t use that cash to buy another property..??
or refinance with another bank (to 80% LTV again), and use ca$h proceed to buy another 1 lor??...
:confused:
(the CM4 max LTV=60% suppose to get rid of this re-financing bubble mah, may be they/MND will up 2nd property to max 40% LTV... :D )
Guess what... I was one of the rental scam victims... 3k just gone like that... reported the lessee also to no avail....
I think I really very the lucky... this year maybe major fan tai sui
Bro, look at the brght side.
Bro, look at the brght side.
Thanks... just a bit overwhelmed. I still doing my mini cases... faint... gotta dig out all the small minute details. I am never a micro-manager... the process will kill me already...
Realised the rental scam happened to me years back la... so nothing to do with Tai Sui haha...
Thanks... just a bit overwhelmed. I still doing my mini cases... faint... gotta dig out all the small minute details. I am never a micro-manager... the process will kill me already...
Realised the rental scam happened to me years back la... so nothing to do with Tai Sui haha...
Have just completed the reply to IRAS on my rental income. Still took me an hour as i hve all the supporting documents. Hve been keeping all these records for at least 7 years.
Bro, look at the brght side.
whats the bright side?
whats the bright side?
Did not come back years later. How to remember?
A trick to getting all the details of buy/sell transaction is
MAKE SURE YOU KEEP THE 'COMPLETION ACCOUNT' NOTICE FROM YOUR LAWYER.
All the devilish details are in there... (no pun intended towards bro devilplate wakaka)
devilplate
25-02-12, 18:53
Cgt is based on individual income tax rate? And base on tat financial yr tat u receive the sale of proceeds? Or simply lump up all tgt and tax u at 20%? lol
Spouse of a sibling use me name to circumvent the 5 year hdb mop sia! Dunno how to make a case around it. Especially if the in-law turn around and accused me of turnover too many properties thats why drag them into this and not fair to them. Boy this has family wellbeing implications. But i think a name is not just any name it is worth something so if you wanted to use mine you have to bear the risk and pay the dues if need be lor... Coz like some of the bro and sis here say, there are implications and risks if your name used by others for property investment...
Your No. 1 problem is this 300K gain. If it is not a MM, the capital required can be high. So you need to prove you are not "trading".
You need to change the thread title, Capital gain for property in Singapore is NOT taxed.
Trading property for a living, like running a business is taxed.
Obviously avoiding MOP cannot be the reason, you are getting your family into real trouble that money cannot solve.
Could you recall again, whether your sibling (or the whole family) were pushing you to get married and pooled the money to buy this unit?
Did you sold it due to surrounding changes, or heart broken goodbye with fiancee?
Surely none of you have intention to trade.
Thanks,
Richard
I hv been asking many friends not to use joint names for property purchases to avoid certain complications like capital gain tax and even ABSD now.
eg, for a couple, if u buy separately, u can buy 4 units without ABSD. If buy in joint name, only two units.
Similarly, if u sell 4 properties in 2 hold 2 each - unlikley to have capital gain. but if u sell, 4 properties, both persons have joint names, likely to attract as trading profit.
When I made cheque payment, my bad eyesight read S$2220 as S$2200.
The taxman gave me a 5% interest charge on S$20 dollars (that is S$1). But the last sentence is very serious:
If you don't pay by Mar 10, we will instruct your banks, employer, tenets and any 3rd party who owe you money to make payment on your behalf.
So basically, they will not chase me, but will chase my income and money sources.
Thanks,
Richard
Your No. 1 problem is this 300K gain. If it is not a MM, the capital required can be high. So you need to prove you are not "trading".
You need to change the thread title, Capital gain for property in Singapore is NOT taxed.
Trading property for a living, like running a business is taxed.
Obviously avoiding MOP cannot be the reason, you are getting your family into real trouble that money cannot solve.
Could you recall again, whether your sibling (or the whole family) were pushing you to get married and pooled the money to buy this unit?
Did you sold it due to surrounding changes, or heart broken goodbye with fiancee?
Surely none of you have intention to trade.
Thanks,
Richard
Yes. The non MM was already tenanted out so sold with tenancy. Reason was actually that adjacent plot got new launch and started construction already dust and noise and blocking the view entirely. This kind of thing cant lie... Btw my name is used but i dont stand to gain one cent from it so i was never the protagonist in any decision on this property. I was not even compensated for my time going down to meet lawyers and bankers etc. As for the thread title, too bad i cant change it now.
Cgt is based on individual income tax rate? And base on tat financial yr tat u receive the sale of proceeds? Or simply lump up all tgt and tax u at 20%? lol
I tempted to think is the latter... Scholar friend working in IRAS confirmed it is based on income tax rate. So for sure 20% i guess... Wonder they allow GIRO over 24 or 36 months...
When I made cheque payment, my bad eyesight read S$2220 as S$2200.
The taxman gave me a 5% interest charge on S$20 dollars (that is S$1). But the last sentence is very serious:
If you don't pay by Mar 10, we will instruct your banks, employer, tenets and any 3rd party who owe you money to make payment on your behalf.
So basically, they will not chase me, but will chase my income and money sources.
Thanks,
Richard
This not new to me. I ever argued with them on they not updating my address properly thus i did not get the notice on time and they had to waive the late fee in the end. Maybe now seek revenge after kena marked before...
Actually there is something. All the properties were listed in chronological order EXCEPT this one with the 300k gain right at the top #1. This must have set off the alarm.
devilplate
25-02-12, 22:33
I tempted to think is the latter... Scholar friend working in IRAS confirmed it is based on income tax rate. So for sure 20% i guess... Wonder they allow GIRO over 24 or 36 months...
If based on income tax rate, shd depend on the date of each of ur sale rite? Let say one yr u sell one only....den the tax rate will be lower rite? Hmmm ....so may not be as bad lor unless u sold many within one yr
devilplate
25-02-12, 22:35
Actually there is something. All the properties were listed in chronological order EXCEPT this one with the 300k gain right at the top #1. This must have set off the alarm.
This 300k ppty....wats the duration of ownership....i tink mabe more den 2yrs will be safe.....
mcmlxxvi, Why you take out I love MM picture? You don't love MM now because of the taxman after you for capital gains from selling many MMs?:p
devilplate
25-02-12, 22:54
mcmlxxvi, Why you take out I love MM picture? You don't love MM now because of the taxman after you for capital gains from selling many MMs?:p
Aiyoyo....rubbing salt on his wounds...lol
devilplate
25-02-12, 22:59
Reinvestment of sales proceed on another purchase will negate the finding of trading. 2yrs of ownership is consider acceptable....
http://www.rodyk.com/page/Resources/article/88
http://www.rodyk.com/page/Resources/article/265
If based on income tax rate, shd depend on the date of each of ur sale rite? Let say one yr u sell one only....den the tax rate will be lower rite? Hmmm ....so may not be as bad lor unless u sold many within one yr
Its many many la... At peak got 3 sales i think
If every six months i sell and buy a new property then move to the new property and change the address in my IC.
So am I consider a property trader since I am staying in it?
devilplate
25-02-12, 23:20
If every six months i sell and buy a new property then move to the new property and change the address in my IC.
So am I consider a property trader since I am staying in it?
U can try and let us noe ....wakakaka
U making govt and agts vy happy...wakakakaka
U can try and let us noe ....wakakaka
U making govt and agts vy happy...wakakakaka
haha... true right? if you always stay in the place you bought, how can you be a property trader? prob just backside itchy.... always move only lol...
Reinvestment of sales proceed on another purchase will negate the finding of trading. 2yrs of ownership is consider acceptable....
http://www.rodyk.com/page/Resources/article/88
http://www.rodyk.com/page/Resources/article/265
Many thanks bro. Very helpful. I didnt know Rodyk has these informative articles! No wonder many developers and even consumers like to use them. Anyway, for my case, most if not all my profits were reinvested into my current few properties. One having 80% loan, one 70% and one 60%. Can easily guess when i bought them right lol
haha... true right? if you always stay in the place you bought, how can you be a property trader? prob just backside itchy.... always move only lol...
That totally describes me. Really nomad. Keep moving...
mcmlxxvi, Why you take out I love MM picture? You don't love MM now because of the taxman after you for capital gains from selling many MMs?:p
Its not that i dont love MM... But like i said in other thread, all odds are against MM and i take down my avatar to mourn in advance for the extinction of this asset class...
devilplate
25-02-12, 23:29
Many thanks bro. Very helpful. I didnt know Rodyk has these informative articles! No wonder many developers and even consumers like to use them. Anyway, for my case, most if not all my profits were reinvested into my current few properties. One having 80% loan, one 70% and one 60%. Can easily guess when i bought them right lol
wc....all da best...
That totally describes me. Really nomad. Keep moving...
share your experience leh... how many times you move in the last 5 years?
share your experience leh... how many times you move in the last 5 years?
I really lost count... let's see
t2m
m2r
r2p
p2s
s2b
b2b
b2h
h2c
c2b
b2d
d2n
n2k
So 12 times?
...
I always believe that property is meant for human being to live, not meant for Micky Mouse though your title is still reflected as small is beautiful!
Its not that i dont love MM... But like i said in other thread, all odds are against MM and i take down my avatar to mourn in advance for the extinction of this asset class...
I really lost count... let's see
t2m
m2r
r2p
p2s
s2b
b2b
b2h
h2c
c2b
b2d
d2n
n2k
So 12 times?
...
wah ! :jaw-dropping: :jaw-dropping:
more than 2X per year !
does this include those lent by relatives ?
i dun recognise many of these shortforms though.
Difficult for a family to move at this rate.
I really lost count... let's see
t2m
m2r
r2p
p2s
s2b
b2b
b2h
h2c
c2b
b2d
d2n
n2k
So 12 times?
...
wah ! :jaw-dropping: :jaw-dropping:
more than 2X per year !
does this include those lent by relatives ?
i dun recognise many of these shortforms though.
deliberately that you can't identify right?? if you can i salute u lor..
anyway relatives one i never stay inside so not counted.
ikan bilis
26-02-12, 10:17
moved 12x within 5yrs... i think you can write some appeal so confusing that the taxman doesnot know how to tax you.... => if cannot convince him, confuse him, or con him then.... ;)
moved 12x within 5yrs... i think you can write some appeal so confusing that the taxman doesnot know how to tax you.... => if cannot convince him, confuse him, or con him then.... ;)
The reason I stayed in each and every one of them is obvious that all were meant for owner occupation until circumstances forced me to sell for something better. Too bad 'better' happen to mean 'profit' in the bull run period and 'better' happened too many times... that's why kena flagged. The way I see it, it's machiam kena taxed for striking lottery (luck).
I not so worry about my own portfolio now, but rather the relatives one. The argument could be that because I buy sell so many times that's why drag them into the picture kena review. But I rather believe is due to the quantum (300k) of profit that raise the alarm in the first place, if not this single transaction that drag me down for my whole portfolio...
If there is refusal to pay or to pay in full the gains tax, then there will be endless finger pointing... and it really destroys the relationship.
What would bros here think is a fair treatment? Good to hear since you are 3rd party to the picture.
http://www.hdb.gov.sg/fi10/fi10322p.nsf/w/SellFlatMinimumOccupationPerid?OpenDocument
"Under the Housing & Development Act, the penalties for buyers and sellers who give false information to HDB is up to 6 months' imprisonment and/or a fine of up to $5,000."
http://www.iras.gov.sg/irasHome/page04.aspx?id=1190
Just remind your relative the risk of hiding things from HDB could be 6 month in jail. The 20% income tax on S$300K is just S$60K. Maybe they are very happy to provide you with S$60K emergency fund. (meaning they still made a handsome profit of S$240k with your help.)
Thanks,
Richard
ikan bilis
26-02-12, 10:39
- you gained nothing out of the "name lending"... never had any cut in the profit...
- why they picked your name to "borrow" in the very first place?... then they have to take the risks, or blame themselves for picking the wrong "name" to "borrow"...
- you had been very "helping" and risking your "life" for lending your "name"... they could had "run road" if price crashed 30%...
;) :D
sorry ah!... lots of ""....
I really lost count... let's see
t2m
m2r
r2p
p2s
s2b
b2b
b2h
h2c
c2b
b2d
d2n
n2k
So 12 times?
...
This is amazing to move 12 times in a span of 5yrs.
Seriously bro I'm not trying to pour cold water but doubt you can escape from the tax. How to convince IRAS you are not trading property given that you sold so many already (7 in 7 yrs) & still holding a couples of them.
IRAS is not stupid & they definitely have encounter many other similar cases. Just be prepared.
But I really salute you :cheers4: for your capability in MM property investment & ability in adjusting to new environment twice a year. Probably because you're single so don't have family to worry about.
Minsanity. You're better than Linsanity
There is one agent buying and selling units in my project - maybe 20 times. I doubt he would be caught by Taxman.
The skill of "borrowing" names should not even trigger IRAS computer programs. Yes, they use computer to dig out suspected cases. But they use human to read the essay you write.
Thanks,
Richard
Just select one of the shortest holding period unit (with small profit, no need to be the smallest profit - to prove you are sincere), and surround yourself to IRAS.
Let your relative to pay that sum.
Any savings between S$60K and that amount, it is a bonus!
No risking of going to jail simply increase happiness index by 30%.
Thanks,
Richard
http://www.hdb.gov.sg/fi10/fi10322p.nsf/w/SellFlatMinimumOccupationPerid?OpenDocument
"Under the Housing & Development Act, the penalties for buyers and sellers who give false information to HDB is up to 6 months' imprisonment and/or a fine of up to $5,000."
http://www.iras.gov.sg/irasHome/page04.aspx?id=1190
Just remind your relative the risk of hiding things from HDB could be 6 month in jail. The 20% income tax on S$300K is just S$60K. Maybe they are very happy to provide you with S$60K emergency fund. (meaning they still made a handsome profit of S$240k with your help.)
Thanks,
Richard
Believe much of the profits already plonked into their current condo that they staying in... plus baby on the way due in few months, I can't bear the risk of upsetting the mother (my sibling) and causing undue stress.
Too bad I think the baby due after the submission deadline haha... maybe ask for timeline extension... :P
Actually their case also the same, as in new project come up block the view completely and noise dust etc. And it was sold in about 20 months and tenanted out the whole time so I doubt it is considered 'flipping'...
Just select one of the shortest holding period unit (with small profit, no need to be the smallest profit - to prove you are sincere), and surround yourself to IRAS.
Let your relative to pay that sum.
Any savings between S$60K and that amount, it is a bonus!
No risking of going to jail simply increase happiness index by 30%.
Thanks,
Richard
The smallest profit one is about S$60k.... how come you know!! *scared*
May I suggest you engage a lawyer to advise you on your tax issues.... better "dun pray pray".... don't end up being made an example by the IRAS as a warning or test case for the rest.
The reason I stayed in each and every one of them is obvious that all were meant for owner occupation until circumstances forced me to sell for something better. Too bad 'better' happen to mean 'profit' in the bull run period and 'better' happened too many times... that's why kena flagged. The way I see it, it's machiam kena taxed for striking lottery (luck).
I not so worry about my own portfolio now, but rather the relatives one. The argument could be that because I buy sell so many times that's why drag them into the picture kena review. But I rather believe is due to the quantum (300k) of profit that raise the alarm in the first place, if not this single transaction that drag me down for my whole portfolio...
If there is refusal to pay or to pay in full the gains tax, then there will be endless finger pointing... and it really destroys the relationship.
What would bros here think is a fair treatment? Good to hear since you are 3rd party to the picture.
This is amazing to move 12 times in a span of 5yrs.
Seriously bro I'm not trying to pour cold water but doubt you can escape from the tax. How to convince IRAS you are not trading property given that you sold so many already (7 in 7 yrs) & still holding a couples of them.
IRAS is not stupid & they definitely have encounter many other similar cases. Just be prepared.
But I really salute you :cheers4: for your capability in MM property investment & ability in adjusting to new environment twice a year. Probably because you're single so don't have family to worry about.
Minsanity. You're better than Linsanity
Ha thanks for your note.... but if I truly wanted to cash in on the profit I would not hold on to any liao. All cash in hand, tio bo? It is exactly because all profits were plonked back into the houses mean it's for long term holding and investment not for flipping... btw I had not really buy sell the entire 2011...
Looking at my timeline,
2007 - 2 buy
2008 - 2 buy 2 sell
2009 - 2 buy 2 sell
2010 - 3 buys 2 sell
2011 - 1 sell
ikan bilis
26-02-12, 11:04
hahaha... not to pour cold water, but hor... can try convince the taxman flipping 7x mm within 5yrs and is still not speculating??... may be taxman also very "i love mm" .... :D :D
You know in Canada, singles end up paying a lot of tax.
Middle class with 2 or 3 children will not need to pay much tax.
Why?
No one can live alone, we depend on others.
No single generation can live alone, we depend on younger generations when we get VERY old. It may not need to be in the form of getting cash from our children. Renting out our units to younger generations is also a form of depending on them. Getting dividends is another form by depending on the younger generations to keep the companies running.
So you can choose to fund your own expensive babies, or to help others with babies. Because indirectly, we will need to depend on them when we get VERY old.
Thanks,
Richard
hahaha... not to pour cold water, but hor... can try convince the taxman flipping 7x mm within 5yrs and is still not speculating??... may be taxman also very "i love mm" .... :D :D
I know it's not gonna be a walk in the park... it's easy to arrive at conclusion just from the numbers. Badges of trade is very important here... motivations, reasons, circumstances... all can be proven with hard facts. One can't just say for example 'new project sprout up in front' when there is none nor 'ran into financial trouble thus need to sell for cash' when it didn't happen for example...right?
You know in Canada, singles end up paying a lot of tax.
Middle class with 2 or 3 children will not need to pay much tax.
Why?
No one can live alone, we depend on others.
No single generation can live alone, we depend on younger generations when we get VERY old. It may not need to be in the form of getting cash from our children. Renting out our units to younger generations is also a form of depending on them. Getting dividends is another form by depending on the younger generations to keep the companies running.
So you can choose to fund your own expensive babies, or to help others with babies. Because indirectly, we will need to depend on them when we get VERY old.
Thanks,
Richard
Interesting... are you saying in Singapore is also happening although via various different policies for concerted effect towards that?
May I suggest you engage a lawyer to advise you on your tax issues.... better "dun pray pray".... don't end up being made an example by the IRAS as a warning or test case for the rest.
It's just tax advisor you mean right? Not say lawyer to take IRAS to court...
Ha thanks for your note.... but if I truly wanted to cash in on the profit I would not hold on to any liao. All cash in hand, tio bo? It is exactly because all profits were plonked back into the houses mean it's for long term holding and investment not for flipping... btw I had not really buy sell the entire 2011...
Looking at my timeline,
2007 - 2 buy
2008 - 2 buy 2 sell
2009 - 2 buy 2 sell
2010 - 3 buys 2 sell
2011 - 1 sell
They can counter you. You need to think what they'll probably ask you and get prepared with an answer.
Example:
1. Without the profit you made in selling those 7 units, you will not be able to buy those units you have today. Your wealth has grow because of this. Right? Agree? So shouldn't you be paying tax?
2. In 2008, you sold 2 and bought 2. Are you able to buy the 2 new units if not for the profits made from the previous 2? What is you reason for selling them? Isn't it for profits? Same for the next few years. This is what a typical speculator will do and you are doing this for several years.
3. If not for the CM, you will be still doing selling and buying?
4 etc, etc
Just my thoughts. Maybe other bro has better ideas.
They can counter you. You need to think what they'll probably ask you and get prepared with an answer.
Example:
1. Without the profit you made in selling those 7 units, you will not be able to buy those units you have today. Your wealth has grow because of this. Right? Agree? So shouldn't you be paying tax?
2. In 2008, you sold 2 and bought 2. Are you able to buy the 2 new units if not for the profits made from the previous 2? What is you reason for selling them? Isn't it for profits? Same for the next few years. This is what a typical speculator will do and you are doing this for several years.
3. If not for the CM, you will be still doing selling and buying?
4 etc, etc
Just my thoughts. Maybe other bro has better ideas.
Thanks for playing devil's advocate... this is very helpful. Yes I have thought of all those questions you mentioned. All can be substianted with reasons other than profit. Profit was a 'by the way' and not the motivation. And also, wealth gain is non taxable by definition. Unless it is trading for profits. A profit is not a profit until cashed out and in hand. Paper profit - I doubt it stands in court as real profit.
Ha thanks for your note.... but if I truly wanted to cash in on the profit I would not hold on to any liao. All cash in hand, tio bo? It is exactly because all profits were plonked back into the houses mean it's for long term holding and investment not for flipping... btw I had not really buy sell the entire 2011...
Looking at my timeline,
2007 - 2 buy
2008 - 2 buy 2 sell
2009 - 2 buy 2 sell
2010 - 3 buys 2 sell
2011 - 1 sell
You can argue that if you gave held onto the 2 units bought 2007, instead of flipping, what would be the value? At the end of the day, with all the transaction cost, you may not be better off with all these flipping, hence you actually lost money through flipping instead of holding on.
You can argue that if you gave held onto the 2 units bought 2007, instead of flipping, what would be the value? At the end of the day, with all the transaction cost, you may not be better off with all these flipping, hence you actually lost money through flipping instead of holding on.
Thanks, that is logical. The unit I bought in 2007 for $300k, today is worth $580k. I would have made the same profit if I stayed on, if not more. There is simply no reason for me to go through the hassle of moving here and there in order to arrive at the same point if not for 'push' factors beyond my control...
Thanks, that is logical. The unit I bought in 2007 for $300k, today is worth $580k. I would have made the same profit if I stayed on, if not more. There is simply no reason for me to go through the hassle of moving here and there in order to arrive at the same point if not for 'push' factors beyond my control...
Taxman will then ask you.
If it's for own stay, you should be buying only 1 and selling 1 at a time. You bought a few & sold some each year and the timing is so close. It doesn't sounds convincing that they are so many factors around you that need you to be constantly on the move within 5yrs. If not for the good profits you made.
Can you explain this?
What I mean is that for IRAS to flag you out means that they see a pattern of trading. A tax consultant can't help much at this point.
You either pay up or contest it. And if you plan to contest it, its best to get a lawyer's advice first.
But based on what I have read so far, I think you don't have to much of a case unfortunately relatives using your name to buy is not a good defence.. anyway good luck!
It's just tax advisor you mean right? Not say lawyer to take IRAS to court...
Taxman will then ask you.
If it's for own stay, you should be buying only 1 and selling 1 at a time. You bought a few & sold some each year and the timing is so close. It doesn't sounds convincing that they are so many factors around you that need you to be constantly on the move within 5yrs. If not for the good profits you made.
Can you explain this?
Yep, this is correct. At any one time, one will be for own stay and one will be for investment if there were 2 concurrent transactions. I am prepared to pay for the 'investment' profits. But I believe for own stay push factors should suffice to justify the move, and I have already detailed out all the push factors.
does paying up means admission of being a property trader?
so how does it affect subsequent purchases? meaning, will EVERY subsequent purchases be deemed trading also? profit for each buy and sell tax at 20% level?
if like that, won't it better for TS to seek advice from lawyer.
don't be penny wise, pound foolish - pay for professonal advice.
ps. you know what they say about free advice?
Free advice is the most expensive advice.
Yep, this is correct. At any one time, one will be for own stay and one will be for investment if there were 2 concurrent transactions. I am prepared to pay for the 'investment' profits. But I believe for own stay push factors should suffice to justify the move, and I have already detailed out all the push factors.
Taxman: would you have sold your condos at a loss?
if not, the push factors are tolerable isn't it - so please pay up the taxes.
Payee: Yes, I would have sold at a loss.
Taxman: Ok, I put this case on hold, wait until the condo you are staying now have construction next door. If you dont sell at a loss, pay up your taxes.
Payee sold condo for profit in 2015, no construction nextdoor.
Taxman: Why you sell, no construction nextdoor. because you make profit right? So please pay up the taxes.
Taxman: what condo are you staying in now?
let me check....hmmm also got construction nearby. how come you can tolerate this time - because of CM right.
so push factors tolerable - so please pay up the taxes.
Based on reason by TS:
1) he can only sell his current properties if construction next door.
2) cannot sell current properties if no constructioni next door.
If he violate either one, taxman would come knocking again
If based on income tax rate, shd depend on the date of each of ur sale rite? Let say one yr u sell one only....den the tax rate will be lower rite? Hmmm ....so may not be as bad lor unless u sold many within one yr
Yes bro this is very important question you asking. Now then I'm thinking on this part after finishing doing up my Excel - you are fast. Well let's say 2010 I sold 2, and those profit amount to maybe around $150k.
Based on http://www.iras.gov.sg/irasHome/page04.aspx?id=1190 then I will pay $15.5k which is like 10.3%... better than lump together exceed 320k bracket exceed 13.3% rate... I see what you mean. Logically they should charge according to YA.... but really dunno since they are doing retrospective checks. Then again to check whether trader pattern, sure need to do retrospective tally... can't based on just one year.
What I mean is that for IRAS to flag you out means that they see a pattern of trading. A tax consultant can't help much at this point.
You either pay up or contest it. And if you plan to contest it, its best to get a lawyer's advice first.
But based on what I have read so far, I think you don't have to much of a case unfortunately relatives using your name to buy is not a good defence.. anyway good luck!
Well if thats the case, in the end what can I say? I AM PROUD TO HAVE CONTRIBUTED TO NATION BUILDING! :)
Taxman: would you have sold your condos at a loss?
if not, the push factors are tolerable isn't it - so please pay up the taxes.
Payee: Yes, I would have sold at a loss.
Taxman: Ok, I put this case on hold, wait until the condo you are staying now have construction next door. If you dont sell at a loss, pay up your taxes.
Payee sold condo for profit in 2015, no construction nextdoor.
Taxman: Why you sell, no construction nextdoor. because you make profit right? So please pay up the taxes.
Taxman: what condo are you staying in now?
let me check....hmmm also got construction nearby. how come you can tolerate this time - because of CM right.
so push factors tolerable - so please pay up the taxes.
Based on reason by TS:
1) he can only sell his current properties if construction next door.
2) cannot sell current properties if no constructioni next door.
If he violate either one, taxman would come knocking again
Haha, you really drilling into this one causal factor. Ok, all the ones I owning now no construction next door... heck even if have it won't affect me coz i face inside of project la! So conclusion is I can/will no longer sell any of them lor...
....... Logically they should charge according to YA.... but really dunno since they are doing retrospective checks. Then again to check whether trader pattern, sure need to do retrospective tally... can't based on just one year.
You can argue based on that but....
What is the cost to IRAS if case goes to court? to the individual taxman, nothing, he doesn't come up with his own money. to the IRAS, probably nothing also unless lose the case and IRAS ordered by court to partially reimburse your cost.
What is your cost if goes to court, if you win, if you lose?
Really game theory.
Hi again,
One finger typing on ipad now, so got to be concise.
Regardless of 12 in 5 years for yourself, the taxman is only interested in those units identified in your letter, presumably including your sister's and any other relatives. You can ignore all the rest for now. So consider your relatives' as yours as well, no distinction, unless you want to whistle-blow.
Then write mini-essay for each one. If too complicated, simplify their job by doing a timeline; easier for them, though they will surely do their own too, but shows you want to be transparent with nothing to hide; also good for you so you will not be wrongly taxed. You must handwrite your essay, more personal, maybe taxman marking your script can then feel for you. Language should be objectively detached and yet personal at relevant points.
Have an opening paragraph, your essays and then the closing with something like 'i love every mickey mouse condo i bought and to experience different lifestyles that each has to offer, until circumstances dictate otherwise, as i have explained above. Of course some were also bought for investment as well to obtain rental yields. Other than those i stayed in, regarding the rest, should you deem the earnings for the rest to be taxable, though i beg to differ as explained earlier, then i will just have to abide.'. just for illustration only, to show detached objectivity and make your essay stand out. If too many people repeat this, then may not be useful liao.
Then keep the rest in hand for minimum 4 years, using the 4 year ssd as a guide.
The taxman will likely identify which one is subject to further tax, most likely added to the tax for that year. Make sure all your other personal taxes are in order too, cos you may not want a full tax audit into everything else.
If this is my sister, and I am single, then depends whether the extra 60k is a big portion of earnings thus far; probably will absorb half to all. but tell them this is the total amount incurred, they can pay by instalment, cos you also got housing loans to pay. If good sibling relationship, she will understand; but be prepared to write off, though dun tell them to see their response; then will know how to temper your response in the future.
Cheers,
lifeline
devilplate
26-02-12, 15:55
Looks like cannot time the market liao?
Let say someone bot 5 ppty for investment and decide to dump all after cm5.....so its like sell 5 within one yr at one go...surely tio flag by taxman especially the cgt can be quite substantial?
devilplate
26-02-12, 15:56
Or force urself to buy a big big unit but den cannot spread the eggs.....dangerous too
devilplate
26-02-12, 16:00
Taxman will then ask you.
If it's for own stay, you should be buying only 1 and selling 1 at a time. You bought a few & sold some each year and the timing is so close. It doesn't sounds convincing that they are so many factors around you that need you to be constantly on the move within 5yrs. If not for the good profits you made.
Can you explain this?
Aiya just state the reasons for buying and selling lor....up to them to tax u anot.....den pay up watever they ask u to pay.....
You can argue based on that but....
What is the cost to IRAS if case goes to court? to the individual taxman, nothing, he doesn't come up with his own money. to the IRAS, probably nothing also unless lose the case and IRAS ordered by court to partially reimburse your cost.
What is your cost if goes to court, if you win, if you lose?
Really game theory.
Going to court is never a viable option so far...
devilplate
26-02-12, 16:04
does paying up means admission of being a property trader?
so how does it affect subsequent purchases? meaning, will EVERY subsequent purchases be deemed trading also? profit for each buy and sell tax at 20% level?
if like that, won't it better for TS to seek advice from lawyer.
don't be penny wise, pound foolish - pay for professonal advice.
ps. you know what they say about free advice?
Free advice is the most expensive advice.
Based on the article i posted.....tat couple got tax 2ppty out of the 7 ppty they sold....
So i tink will be case by case basis lor....
I believe hor once u accessed by iras, subsequent ppty sales u need to declare to them and up to them to deem it as trading anot lor....
I believe sell one ppty every 4 yrs cfm safe la.....
So ppty is meant to buy and accumulate.....den slowly sell bit by bit for multiple ppty owner
devilplate
26-02-12, 16:06
Going to court is never a viable option so far...
Ya.....jus write ur truthful reasons for selling and also state tat u reinvest ur proceed to buy another ppty.....den up to them to decide lor.....
Nothing wrong to say due to construction, blocked views blah blah u decide to cash out the profit and reinvest into another ppty which u believe got better capital appreciation potential.....
I believe can pay by installment one lor....
One way is to sell without taxing will be buying a hdb flat....u r forced to sell all ur ppty within 6mths.....idea hor....lol
Hi again,
One finger typing on ipad now, so got to be concise.
Regardless of 12 in 5 years for yourself, the taxman is only interested in those units identified in your letter, presumably including your sister's and any other relatives. You can ignore all the rest for now. So consider your relatives' as yours as well, no distinction, unless you want to whistle-blow.
Then write mini-essay for each one. If too complicated, simplify their job by doing a timeline; easier for them, though they will surely do their own too, but shows you want to be transparent with nothing to hide; also good for you so you will not be wrongly taxed. You must handwrite your essay, more personal, maybe taxman marking your script can then feel for you. Language should be objectively detached and yet personal at relevant points.
Have an opening paragraph, your essays and then the closing with something like 'i love every mickey mouse condo i bought and to experience different lifestyles that each has to offer, until circumstances dictate otherwise, as i have explained above. Of course some were also bought for investment as well to obtain rental yields. Other than those i stayed in, regarding the rest, should you deem the earnings for the rest to be taxable, though i beg to differ as explained earlier, then i will just have to abide.'. just for illustration only, to show detached objectivity and make your essay stand out. If too many people repeat this, then may not be useful liao.
Then keep the rest in hand for minimum 4 years, using the 4 year ssd as a guide.
The taxman will likely identify which one is subject to further tax, most likely added to the tax for that year. Make sure all your other personal taxes are in order too, cos you may not want a full tax audit into everything else.
If this is my sister, and I am single, then depends whether the extra 60k is a big portion of earnings thus far; probably will absorb half to all. but tell them this is the total amount incurred, they can pay by instalment, cos you also got housing loans to pay. If good sibling relationship, she will understand; but be prepared to write off, though dun tell them to see their response; then will know how to temper your response in the future.
Cheers,
lifeline
Thanks for the detailed advice bro wa can type so long even on ipad single hand salute Kekeke
another way to explain is :
1) circumstances changed : this is all MND problem of keep implementing measures to curb properties. As situation change, u decided not to hold so your properties. Every CM implemented, you decided to sell as you deem risk level has gone up and wanted to sleep soundly every nite and not worry abt holding too many....
Your intention is for long term but everything change every CMs after CMs
Based on the article i posted.....tat couple got tax 2ppty out of the 7 ppty they sold....
So i tink will be case by case basis lor....
I believe hor once u accessed by iras, subsequent ppty sales u need to declare to them and up to them to deem it as trading anot lor....
I believe sell one ppty every 4 yrs cfm safe la.....
So ppty is meant to buy and accumulate.....den slowly sell bit by bit for multiple ppty owner
Any idea if this type of case is considered as evading tax & need to pay back 200% of tax undercharged instead?
devilplate
26-02-12, 16:47
Any idea if this type of case is considered as evading tax & need to pay back 200% of tax undercharged instead?
If u kena accessed by iras liao like bro mlm, den subsequent sale u must declare to iras la....nvr declare and kena caught, surely tio jialat jialat....dun play play
If nvr access by iras for ppty trading, den no nid to declare....as per norm lor
another way to explain is :
1) circumstances changed : this is all MND problem of keep implementing measures to curb properties. As situation change, u decided not to hold so your properties. Every CM implemented, you decided to sell as you deem risk level has gone up and wanted to sleep soundly every nite and not worry abt holding too many....
Your intention is for long term but everything change every CMs after CMs
cannot, he still buy and sell after CMs introduced
devilplate
26-02-12, 16:50
cannot, he still buy and sell after CMs introduced
For the 2 tat he sold in 2011, prolly can say 4yrs ssd come out and he panic and decide to deleverage?
Some bro here deleverage in 2011 lor and bro samsara sold all after cm5.......
Anyway be truthful la.....den if taxman decide to call u in for one on one interview u wun panic......dun ever use another lie to cover the previous lie.....
another way to explain is :
1) circumstances changed : this is all MND problem of keep implementing measures to curb properties. As situation change, u decided not to hold so your properties. Every CM implemented, you decided to sell as you deem risk level has gone up and wanted to sleep soundly every nite and not worry abt holding too many....
Your intention is for long term but everything change every CMs after CMs
another good reason to incorporate! you already got so many good ideas already!
swyping on my android now! :D
Looking at my timeline, 2007 - 2 buy2008 - 2 buy 2 sell2009 - 2 buy 2 sell2010 - 3 buys 2 sell2011 - 1 sell
like this can?
2008 - lemon bro collapsed sell
2009 - friends buy u buy then all analysts say bull run unstainable so sell
2010 - afraid miss the boat buy, then MBT left MND u sell
2011 - b's postings sell.
For 2011 sale and if unit is at aljunied grc, u can say panicked due to opp takinng over. But then decided to move house to pap area. Sure score more points
For 2011 sale and if unit is at aljunied grc, u can say panicked due to opp takinng over. But then decided to move house to pap area. Sure score more points
Marker sure laugh at all your stories compiled from these suggestions. Dun know if can score sympathy points or not though.
Better to tell it as it is, almost... with the politically correct angle for iras; except for your sister's.
Did you update your IC home address each time you move?
If yes, those are good proof for own stay.
Thanks,
Richard
Did you update your IC home address each time you move?
If yes, those are good proof for own stay.
Thanks,
Richard
If not TOP n flip how to say stay?
now let's do it the other way round:
Put a sure-pay list, and don't fight for those.
The taxman will also have an exempt list, so no need to fight for those.
The rest (not many left) is what you need to spend time on. No harm to talk to a lawyer, you can then decide whether you want to engage him. (Surely you can steal a lot of ideas from him).
Thanks,
Richard
Holding period for less than 1 year and have never stayed there should go to the sure pay list.
Thanks,
Richard
Better not to challenge them. Authority in chinese has two "mouth". We bound to lose. Just try to reduce damages. Every action will have a reaction.
can try, but try very hard.
iras have heard plenty of stories,for the donkey decades.
unless evidence solid concrete, too hard not to believe.
otherwise wasting ur time and their time. :D
Did you update your IC home address each time you move?
If yes, those are good proof for own stay.
Thanks,
Richard
Yes all sold after staying at least 6 months after TOP...
For 2011 sale and if unit is at aljunied grc, u can say panicked due to opp takinng over. But then decided to move house to pap area. Sure score more points
This is cute...
like this can?
2008 - lemon bro collapsed sell
2009 - friends buy u buy then all analysts say bull run unstainable so sell
2010 - afraid miss the boat buy, then MBT left MND u sell
2011 - b's postings sell.
Ha ha ha... !!!! How can B posting... They ask where the posting then come here see all your posts then jialat liao lor
i also bought and sold about 7 since 2008. Not sure if i'll receive the letter too? Shucks.
Some were relatives borrow my name to flip one. Shit la... In total sold off about 7 from 2007 to date.
i also bought and sold about 7 since 2008. Not sure if i'll receive the letter too? Shucks.
Thanks for contributing to the national fund. SBS thanks u for the buses.
Capital Gain is definitely not taxable in Singapore. I think the IRAS is picking on any false property tax lodged (10% instead of 4%) or possible rental income earned which was not declared / under declared.
phantom_opera
27-02-12, 08:07
Every major street there is a camera with facial recognition tech watching u, it is even easier to catch traders posting to this forum, trace your ip address enough
Every major street there is a camera with facial recognition tech watching u, it is even easier to catch traders posting to this forum, trace your ip address enough
If trading in property is taxable then wat about Trading on the stock market and forex? is that taxable too?
One big lesson from this is:
Never never use your name for relatives' transaction of any sort. Whether it be property or stocks and shares or business. If anything goes wrong, it's YOUR name on the documents and you are responsible and liable. The relative is not the one who has to answer to the authorities.
It is also not wise to share property with relatives. It may seem a good idea at the time but later on, the circumstances may change and you and your relative(s) may have different priorities or the relationship may go sour. And then you will be in trouble. :simmering:
One big lesson from this is:
Never never use your name for relatives' transaction of any sort. Whether it be property or stocks and shares or business. If anything goes wrong, it's YOUR name on the documents and you are responsible and liable. The relative is not the one who has to answer to the authorities.
It is also not wise to share property with relatives. It may seem a good idea at the time but later on, the circumstances may change and you and your relative(s) may have different priorities or the relationship may go sour. And then you will be in trouble. :simmering:
Sometimes it may be due to the MOP period. HDBers who can't wait for 5 years may "borrow" relatives' names to invest in the private sector.
devilplate
27-02-12, 08:42
Every major street there is a camera with facial recognition tech watching u, it is even easier to catch traders posting to this forum, trace your ip address enough
dun tink they come here to catch....lol
shd be using computers and based on certain pattern and criteria to flag out potential traders
mlm case is 2 sale every yr for 3 consecutive yrs
dun tink they come here to catch....lol
shd be using computers and based on certain pattern and criteria to flag out potential traders
mlm case is 2 sale every yr for 3 consecutive yrs
But unless he's doing that for a living, the cap gains are not taxable.
devilplate
27-02-12, 08:56
But unless he's doing that for a living, the cap gains are not taxable.
actually nobody can do flipping for a living in the long run....ultimately sure kena caught by market downturn.....LOL
only way is via rental income.....
actually nobody can do flipping for a living in the long run....ultimately sure kena caught by market downturn.....LOL
only way is via rental income.....
Ya lor. So precisely why i doubt mlm's case the IRAS is after capital gains. Most probably just tracking rental yield and property tax.
actually nobody can do flipping for a living in the long run....ultimately sure kena caught by market downturn.....LOL
only way is via rental income.....
there is a book by Kiyosaki on this.
Sometimes it may be due to the MOP period. HDBers who can't wait for 5 years may "borrow" relatives' names to invest in the private sector.
Relatives should not agree to have their names borrowed. This is going against the rules. If they were so naive as to let their names be borrowed, then they have to bear the consequences. :beats-me-man: And this situation is the one that is most difficult to explain to IRAS.
Ya lor. So precisely why i doubt mlm's case the IRAS is after capital gains. Most probably just tracking rental yield and property tax.
Seems he "might" be able explain his own purchases to some extent (helped by the fact that he actually changed his IC for those properties). But his relative's purchase makes his overall case weaker.
there is a book by Kiyosaki on this.
The Real Book of Real Estate: Real Experts. Real Stories. Real Life. (2010).
devilplate
27-02-12, 09:13
Seems he "might" be able explain his own purchases to some extent (helped by the fact that he actually changed his IC for those properties). But his relative's purchase makes his overall case weaker.
anyway i believe he is unlikely to get tax for all transactions.....most likely access case by case......
now the tricky part is if he got tax for the 300k case....how he gona ask the tax bill from his relative....?
Ya lor. So precisely why i doubt mlm's case the IRAS is after capital gains. Most probably just tracking rental yield and property tax.
I declare and pay on time all my rental income tax and property tax. Call me mcm in short la. Mlm got negative connotation leh... If you like even shorter, can call cm (god forbid!!!!) or mc lol
Better not to challenge them. Authority in chinese has two "mouth". We bound to lose. Just try to reduce damages. Every action will have a reaction.
I tried few times to figure which character you meant... 3rd try guess 官? Correct?
i also bought and sold about 7 since 2008. Not sure if i'll receive the letter too? Shucks.
Bro/sis hope you wont kena. But even if you do touchwood i already started preparing the homework tips here for you guys lol... Of course thanks to all the real helpful bro and sis here...
Every major street there is a camera with facial recognition tech watching u, it is even easier to catch traders posting to this forum, trace your ip address enough
Lucky i use mobile internet only... But they can pinpoint cell location yawn
actually nobody can do flipping for a living in the long run....ultimately sure kena caught by market downturn.....LOL
only way is via rental income.....
Can. Just set up shell company to do all these trading then pay corporate tax lor
anyway i believe he is unlikely to get tax for all transactions.....most likely access case by case......
now the tricky part is if he got tax for the 300k case....how he gona ask the tax bill from his relative....?
Lets see. The 300k was actual sales proceeds. My bad. So that includes the initial downpayment capital. Nett nett profit after costs, expenses etc maybe say 150 to 200k max? Even if taxed that is like perhaps 16k or so. I think this is nothing to the relative who is pretty high post and high salary la...
Did u pay the property tax for the 300K unit. Once it is under your name, you are resposible for everything.
Your relative's high salary means high marginal tax bracket, and the total income can be easily pushed into 20% bracket. So it is still "better" to be under your name. Just treat it as you have paid "Additional Single's Tax" and contributed to National Birth Rate (indirectly). Do them a favour and no need to disturbe the baby.
Thanks,
Richard
I declare and pay on time all my rental income tax and property tax. Call me mcm in short la. Mlm got negative connotation leh... If you like even shorter, can call cm (god forbid!!!!) or mc lol
Ya lor, so i think they are just checking on accuracy?
Lets see. The 300k was actual sales proceeds. My bad. So that includes the initial downpayment capital. Nett nett profit after costs, expenses etc maybe say 150 to 200k max? Even if taxed that is like perhaps 16k or so. I think this is nothing to the relative who is pretty high post and high salary la...
Then it should be no problem for him/her to pay you back. He/she already has a "discount" of the tax since presumably (from the tone of your post), you might be in a lower tax bracket than the relative.
Did u pay the property tax for the 300K unit. Once it is under your name, you are resposible for everything.
Your relative's high salary means high marginal tax bracket, and the total income can be easily pushed into 20% bracket. So it is still "better" to be under your name. Just treat it as you have paid "Additional Single's Tax" and contributed to National Birth Rate (indirectly). Do them a favour and no need to disturbe the baby.
Thanks,
Richard
Yes that was paid. Relative transferred me the money in full that time. You are right, he enjoy additional tax relief due to it added on to my side!!!!
Ya lor, so i think they are just checking on accuracy?
Confirm not just to check accuracy. The letter already wrote that its to 'review whether gains are taxable'... The objective was spelled out. Although subject line put Income Tax Audit
Astronotus oscellatus
27-02-12, 14:22
Confirm not just to check accuracy. The letter already wrote that its to 'review whether gains are taxable'... The objective was spelled out. Although subject line put Income Tax Audit
Got chance to speak to one IRAS officer...she said buy and sell in less than three years will trigger alert for them to look at you...
Got chance to speak to one IRAS officer...she said buy and sell in less than three years will trigger alert for them to look at you...
Oh oh... Then i am sure many bros and sis will also get letter liao. Better not open your mailbox. What you dont know wont hurt you wakaka... Btw i think by far your nick is the longest i have seen in this forum (and any forum for that matter). Lol
Oh oh... Then i am sure many bros and sis will also get letter liao. Better not open your mailbox. What you dont know wont hurt you wakaka... Btw i think by far your nick is the longest i have seen in this forum (and any forum for that matter). Lol
Fish lover?
if ur being tax for capital gain, does it mean that next time when u sell at a loss, u can claim back from IRAS?
Also there is no black and white in the 3 years as well
Got chance to speak to one IRAS officer...she said buy and sell in less than three years will trigger alert for them to look at you...
3 years ? too much. I think they selectively tax ikan bilis like us. If institutional who are buy/sell, they won't tax.
Lets see. The 300k was actual sales proceeds. My bad. So that includes the initial downpayment capital. Nett nett profit after costs, expenses etc maybe say 150 to 200k max? Even if taxed that is like perhaps 16k or so. I think this is nothing to the relative who is pretty high post and high salary la...
If your relative is high post & high salary why he need to put in your name?
End of the day it is because it is advantageous - if nothing go wrong - to do so at the disadvantage of Singapore taxman. Assume it can't be because he can't get mortgage with high salary.
Frankly, better to be honest all round next time.
I wouldn't let anyone use my name - you never know what they can do if desperate.
Similarly I wouldn't use someone else's name to cheat the taxman. After all the other party can legally sell the unit & pocket all the cash.
Also selling multiple properties it's common knowledge that you could be arrowed as a property trader & subject to gains as income tax.
These things are well known. Why subject yourself to the risk of being used by others who can smile and walk away from the table when the waiter brings the bill?
Anyhow - good learning experience for others out there thinking of pulling this stunt.
You have mis-understood MCM, he is a very helpful person.
All the while you can see, he has honestly declared all his tax laibilities.
It is the Taxman who is not transprant enough, and you need lawyers and even high court to sort out what is "deem" to be a property trading.
If the taxman had clearly said in advance "holding period less than 2 years will need to pay trading income tax", I don't think MCM has any problem to pay.
Now it is Taxman chasing people afterwards, and caught people by potential cash flow surprize.
If your addiontal personnel income tax rate is "deemed" by whether you are a "high" earner, and the Taxman only come back to you years later and ask you pay "high" earner's additional tax, what will you say?
Thanks,
Richard
PS. Lending name is like lending money, just to help relative to buy the HOT HOT property. Clearly no intention to escape tax.
phantom_opera
28-02-12, 19:11
it is not exactly taxman fault ... a stupid rule like as long as buy / sell within 2y will be classified as trading cannot work also ... what if genuine reason ?? I know of family sell-buy-sell-buy just to get to the right primary school
dun forget many powerful people are flipping properties too ;)
... what if genuine reason ?? I know of family sell-buy-sell-buy just to get to the right primary school
and in the process, making profits is incidental to getting the right primary school ;)
devilplate
28-02-12, 21:05
Actually i am wif richwang....iras shd define the rules and restriction properly to ensure fair playing field and eliminate grey areas....
For msia, sell within 2yrs, 10% cgt.....den next 5yrs 5% cgt den 0% thereafter
Btw 4yrs ssd also penalise genuine seller also wat.....wana change to the right sch also cannot rite.....
devilplate
28-02-12, 21:18
So in a way cgt is definitely less harsh den 4yrs ssd.....
Genuine seller wana change hse for pri sch, downgrade, upgrade all possible....
4yrs ssd scary.....bachelors who bot mm for self stay, cannot get married within next 4yrs liao? How to upgrade to a bigger hse? Lol
Astronotus oscellatus
28-02-12, 23:35
Fish lover?
Bingo!
BTW tax man look does not mean sure kena. Prepare good story they will believe you. But story need to be believable lor. Like dun like neighbor play mahjong day and night, dun like face pool with screaming kids, dun like morning sun, dun like evening sun, dun like the BBQ pit wafting smoke in your living room etc...
When I made cheque payment, my bad eyesight read S$2220 as S$2200.
The taxman gave me a 5% interest charge on S$20 dollars (that is S$1). But the last sentence is very serious:
If you don't pay by Mar 10, we will instruct your banks, employer, tenets and any 3rd party who owe you money to make payment on your behalf.
So basically, they will not chase me, but will chase my income and money sources.
Thanks,
Richard
Just checked myTax Portal, the Taxman has credited back the S$1 fine to me (without me requesting for it). So they do treat people nicely if you behave nicely.
Thanks,
Richard
You have mis-understood MCM, he is a very helpful person.
All the while you can see, he has honestly declared all his tax laibilities.
It is the Taxman who is not transprant enough, and you need lawyers and even high court to sort out what is "deem" to be a property trading.
If the taxman had clearly said in advance "holding period less than 2 years will need to pay trading income tax", I don't think MCM has any problem to pay.
Now it is Taxman chasing people afterwards, and caught people by potential cash flow surprize.
If your addiontal personnel income tax rate is "deemed" by whether you are a "high" earner, and the Taxman only come back to you years later and ask you pay "high" earner's additional tax, what will you say?
Thanks,
Richard
PS. Lending name is like lending money, just to help relative to buy the HOT HOT property. Clearly no intention to escape tax.
Basic question is still not answered. Why is high pay, high position using someone else name to buy except to make some sort of evasion. Lending name is not same as lending money - pls show basis in law for this.
Your name on something means you own it, liabilities and all - not the person who think they are borrowing your name.
I would guess it's being done for high pay guy to make more money and pay less overall tax, either from rental or "income" by pushing any derived income onto someone who is in a lower tax bracket.
If you feel this is incorrect feel free to go to IRAS building and declare that you are all doing this & see how much sympathy you get.
ps kind of agree with the fuzziness of the property trading. They should just put it out there in black & white with no possible room for interpretation.
Bingo!
BTW tax man look does not mean sure kena. Prepare good story they will believe you. But story need to be believable lor. Like dun like neighbor play mahjong day and night, dun like face pool with screaming kids, dun like morning sun, dun like evening sun, dun like the BBQ pit wafting smoke in your living room etc...
Eh i think the facing a bit difficult right. You bought with eyes wide open knowing which side your unit will face. Whether morning or afternoo sun, whether bbq pit, whether children pool...
So in a way cgt is definitely less harsh den 4yrs ssd.....
Genuine seller wana change hse for pri sch, downgrade, upgrade all possible....
4yrs ssd scary.....bachelors who bot mm for self stay, cannot get married within next 4yrs liao? How to upgrade to a bigger hse? Lol
Can apply for special waiver if you make you new wife pregnant before 4 yrs SSD up. More babies more waiver. Deduct 4% off per baby. Maximum you can have 4 babies anyway within the 4 yr period... Unless you get twins or triplets, then really strike 4D liao. Immediate waiver up to 12%...
If your relative is high post & high salary why he need to put in your name?
End of the day it is because it is advantageous - if nothing go wrong - to do so at the disadvantage of Singapore taxman. Assume it can't be because he can't get mortgage with high salary.
Frankly, better to be honest all round next time.
I wouldn't let anyone use my name - you never know what they can do if desperate.
Similarly I wouldn't use someone else's name to cheat the taxman. After all the other party can legally sell the unit & pocket all the cash.
Also selling multiple properties it's common knowledge that you could be arrowed as a property trader & subject to gains as income tax.
These things are well known. Why subject yourself to the risk of being used by others who can smile and walk away from the table when the waiter brings the bill?
Anyhow - good learning experience for others out there thinking of pulling this stunt.
I believe the reason was coz still bound by hdb MOP and kid is about 2 to 3 yrs old - the foundation years. Good to stay in condo and let kid enjoy the facilities and mingle. So they really owe me big time. The whole family... If after adding their profit, it pushes me into next high tax bracket, what is fair thing to do? I pay for up to my own tax bracket based on my own income cum property profit, they pay for the rest above?
You have mis-understood MCM, he is a very helpful person.
All the while you can see, he has honestly declared all his tax laibilities.
It is the Taxman who is not transprant enough, and you need lawyers and even high court to sort out what is "deem" to be a property trading.
If the taxman had clearly said in advance "holding period less than 2 years will need to pay trading income tax", I don't think MCM has any problem to pay.
Now it is Taxman chasing people afterwards, and caught people by potential cash flow surprize.
If your addiontal personnel income tax rate is "deemed" by whether you are a "high" earner, and the Taxman only come back to you years later and ask you pay "high" earner's additional tax, what will you say?
Thanks,
Richard
PS. Lending name is like lending money, just to help relative to buy the HOT HOT property. Clearly no intention to escape tax.
Thanks bro rich for your vote of confidence...
Dear concerned bros and sis, especially those who advised and helped me thru the ordeal. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. MY HEARTFELT APPRECIATION.
The outcome arrived in mailbox during budget speech.
My total damage is <S$20k.
phantom_opera
25-02-13, 18:07
20k tax is less than middle class to some forumers lol
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