View Full Version : 250k Genting or 250 Condo downpayment
If you have the choice, would you put 250k into Genting bonds or 250k in condo down payment now? And why?
ikan bilis
01-03-12, 19:26
i either buy genting shares (not bonds) or condo.... buy i do not like genting, so may be condo better...
heya... not a good time to buy shares, bond or real estates... keep ca$h better, and ""steer the rudder according to wind direction", check/see wind direction first....
:cheers4:
i heard the coupon rate very good for the bonds so for 250k..what kind of return will you get after 5 years...:confused:
Preference shares or capital guaranteed.
If you have the choice, would you put 250k into Genting bonds or 250k in condo down payment now? And why?
250K go RWS do a Big / Small. In 5min u will know good or no good.
devilplate
01-03-12, 22:12
But this bond no expiry date leh....No no lor
Actually not advisable to buy bond when int rate at record low rite...?
But this bond no expiry date leh....No no lor
Actually not advisable to buy bond when int rate at record low rite...?
Got to be a reason why all push out bond now right?
If you have the choice, would you put 250k into Genting bonds or 250k in condo down payment now? And why?
For me 250k to short the mkt....but I dun have so much :)
5.074% per annum
I will borrow from bank, or do a cash out from my existing loan to buy the bond with 5% return and guarantee capital return. Since the interest rate is around 1-2%. A net 3% return without any risk.
And after, I will put all My saving to buy new property. :)
devilplate
01-03-12, 23:32
I will borrow from bank, or do a cash out from my existing loan to buy the bond with 5% return and guarantee capital return. Since the interest rate is around 1-2%. A net 3% return without any risk.
And after, I will put all My saving to buy new property. :)
Nothing is guaranteed hor....tats y we got lehman bro saga
No expiry bonds i dare not touch man.....
5.074% per annum
not 5.375% ah? bank charge u comm?
Nothing is guaranteed hor....tats y we got lehman bro saga
No expiry bonds i dare not touch man.....
Agreed. Look carefully at the structure of the Genting bonds. They are not in the league of convertible preference shares.
There's no free lunch in the financial world. The higher the coupon the higher the risk.
ikan bilis
02-03-12, 06:44
Genting Singapore eyes investments after bond pricing
Reuters
Thursday, Mar 01, 2012
SINGAPORE - Casino operator Genting Singapore said late on Thursday it was seeking new investment opportunities after pricing S$1.8 billion ($1.44 billion) worth of perpetual bonds at a lower-than-expected yield.
Genting will issue the perpetuals at par with a coupon of 5.125 percent, a quarter of a percentage point below the indicative yield of 5.375 percent per annum. Private banks accounted for 78 percent of the order book, which totalled S$6 billion.
"This issue will put us in a very strong position to tap investment opportunities for new revenue streams," Genting Chief Operating Officer Tan Hee Teck said in a statement.
Perpetual bonds, as the name implies, have no maturity date, but the Genting perpetuals will pay an additional one percentage point in interest if they are not redeemed within 10 years.
DBS Group and HSBC were global coordinators and joint lead managers for the issue by Genting, which is rated Baa1 by Moody's and A- by Fitch. Genting owns Resorts World at Sentosa, one of the city-state's two multi-billion-dollar casino-resorts.
DBS and HSBC said the Genting perpetuals issue was the largest-ever single-tranche bond issue denominated in Singapore dollars, demonstrating the increasing depth of Asian local currency bond markets.
Genting Singapore eyes investments after bond pricing
Reuters
Thursday, Mar 01, 2012
SINGAPORE - Casino operator Genting Singapore said late on Thursday it was seeking new investment opportunities after pricing S$1.8 billion ($1.44 billion) worth of perpetual bonds at a lower-than-expected yield.
Genting will issue the perpetuals at par with a coupon of 5.125 percent, a quarter of a percentage point below the indicative yield of 5.375 percent per annum. Private banks accounted for 78 percent of the order book, which totalled S$6 billion.
"This issue will put us in a very strong position to tap investment opportunities for new revenue streams," Genting Chief Operating Officer Tan Hee Teck said in a statement.
Perpetual bonds, as the name implies, have no maturity date, but the Genting perpetuals will pay an additional one percentage point in interest if they are not redeemed within 10 years.
DBS Group and HSBC were global coordinators and joint lead managers for the issue by Genting, which is rated Baa1 by Moody's and A- by Fitch. Genting owns Resorts World at Sentosa, one of the city-state's two multi-billion-dollar casino-resorts.
DBS and HSBC said the Genting perpetuals issue was the largest-ever single-tranche bond issue denominated in Singapore dollars, demonstrating the increasing depth of Asian local currency bond markets.
hmm Baa1
Bonds with credit ratings of BBB+ or Baa1 are called “Investment Grade” bonds meaning that they are a stabilizing force in a portfolio where the interest rates will tend to stay fairly constant and there is a very good, almost guaranteed, chance on a return on your investment. Bonds with a credit rating below BBB+ or Baa1 are called high yield or “junk” bonds. These bonds are popular with traders because of the fact that their interest rates and therefore the price on the bonds fluctuates regularly making speculation popular and arbitrage possible.
i dislike genting's business so won't even consider touching its bonds or shares
i dislike genting's business so won't even consider touching its bonds or shares
care to share why?
it's a gambling business. two industries i won't ever touch - cigarettes and gambling
it's a gambling business. two industries i won't ever touch - cigarettes and gambling
Tobacco shares are good performers though. Imperial Tobacco and BAT (UK market shares) have decent capital appreciation and dividends. Anyway S'pore market don't have tobacco players.
it's a gambling business. two industries i won't ever touch - cigarettes and gamblingthx for sharing:)
Tobacco shares are good performers though. Imperial Tobacco and BAT (UK market shares) have decent capital appreciation and dividends. Anyway S'pore market don't have tobacco players.
beyond singapore's shores lah......
Nothing is guaranteed hor....tats y we got lehman bro saga
No expiry bonds i dare not touch man.....
what does NO expiry mean lets say 3 years down the road u need ur 250k then how..:confused:
ikan bilis
02-03-12, 13:39
what does NO expiry mean lets say 3 years down the road u need ur 250k then how..:confused:
umm... you can always sell to me at 50% hair-cut... :D
i think there were a time when bank's preference shares crashed until jialat jialat... like 15-20% below face value??... :scared-3:
umm... you can always sell to me at 50% hair-cut... :D
i think there were a time when bank's preference shares crashed until jialat jialat... like 15-20% below face value??... :scared-3:
oh ok i get the picture basically ur 250k not guranteed safe...hmm in that case better buy property...:D
what does NO expiry mean lets say 3 years down the road u need ur 250k then how..:confused:
perpetual bonds mean u can redeem them anytime at its current value, though usually there's a minimum period to it.
time-period bonds, e.g. 5 year notes, mean that after the stated time period, the company will redeem them by guaranteeing to purchase it at its original value. hence, you get your capital back plus interest.
umm... you can always sell to me at 50% hair-cut... :D
i think there were a time when bank's preference shares crashed until jialat jialat... like 15-20% below face value??... :scared-3:
ya but like mr B said, I sit tight tight get coupon for my ocbc pref shares value still went up after that
:tongue3:
perpetual bonds mean u can redeem them anytime at its current value, though usually there's a minimum period to it.
time-period bonds, e.g. 5 year notes, mean that after the stated time period, the company will redeem them by guaranteeing to purchase it at its original value. hence, you get your capital back plus interest.
So if you need to sell urgently at the point of time you wanna redeem, pray hard hard its urrent value is more than its initial value you bought, that's the catch
perpetual bonds mean u can redeem them anytime at its current value, though usually there's a minimum period to it.
time-period bonds, e.g. 5 year notes, mean that after the stated time period, the company will redeem them by guaranteeing to purchase it at its original value. hence, you get your capital back plus interest.
tks all this is new to me...:)
perpetual bonds mean u can redeem them anytime at its current value, though usually there's a minimum period to it.
time-period bonds, e.g. 5 year notes, mean that after the stated time period, the company will redeem them by guaranteeing to purchase it at its original value. hence, you get your capital back plus interest.
thx for the info. :D
anyone know if the DBS lehman minibond is perpetual or time period bond?
ikan bilis
02-03-12, 14:49
anyone know if the DBS lehman minibond is perpetualor time period bond?
thought that 1 is not really bond... is some type of credit default swap ??...
no default you make some interest/dividend... heehee...
Sure buy property lah 250k can buy 1m property..
3% yield - 1.5% interest + cost = 1.5%
1.5%x 1m = 15000
15,000/ 250,000 = 6% yield!!!!
Plus at the end of 25 years - 30 years you get a free home... why dont buy house????
Bonds - company bankrupt we left with paper only....
For property, even if the whole country bankrupt, your house still worth a bit of money, worst case still can stay....
So how to compare? no comparison...
Sure buy property lah 250k can buy 1m property..
3% yield - 1.5% interest + cost = 1.5%
1.5%x 1m = 15000
15,000/ 250,000 = 6% yield!!!!
Plus at the end of 25 years - 30 years you get a free home... why dont buy house????
Bonds - company bankrupt we left with paper only....
For property, even if the whole country bankrupt, your house still worth a bit of money, worst case still can stay....
So how to compare? no comparison...
ya another thing if bond collapse must go hong lim park KPKB...:D:D:D
ikan bilis
02-03-12, 18:41
these days financial investment instruments are so complex that i have to limit myself to: 1) physical property with title 2) listed common shares of companies 3) cash/fd in banks...
dare not move out of these 3... else small fish sure kena makan-ed by buaya until no bones left...
:( :scared-3:
devilplate
02-03-12, 18:53
these days financial investment instruments are so complex that i have to limit myself to: 1) physical property with title 2) listed common shares of companies 3) cash/fd in banks...
dare not move out of these 3... else small fish sure kena makan-ed by buaya until no bones left...
:( :scared-3:
can include some gold coins
But this bond no expiry date leh....No no lor
Actually not advisable to buy bond when int rate at record low rite...?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_bond
Perpetual bond, which is also known as a Perpetual or just a Perp, is a bond with no maturity date.[1] Therefore, it may be treated as equity, not as debt. Perpetual bonds pay coupons forever, and the issuer does not have to redeem them. Their cash flows are, therefore, those of a perpetuity.
http://www.straitstimes.com/STI/STIMEDIA/image/20120516/ST_IMAGES_MONEYYYe.jpg
The Straits Times
www.straitstimes.com
Published on May 17, 2012
Note key risks in perpetual securities, MAS cautions
Would-be investors should be aware of how they differ from regular bonds
By Magdalen Ng
THE Monetary Authority of Singapore (MAS) has issued a word of warning to investors caught up in the investing flavour of the month - perpetual securities.
The MAS cautions that perpetual securities are not like regular bonds, and says investors should consider the key risks of any products before investing in them.
In response to queries, an MAS spokesman said yesterday that issuers offering perpetual securities to retail investors are required to comply with the Securities and Futures Act (SFA).
This legislation 'requires proper disclosure of the feature and risks of the product either in a prospectus or an offer information statement'.
'Investors should note, among other factors, that perpetual securities, unlike plain vanilla bonds, do not have a maturity date and the issuers are not obliged to redeem the perpetual securities.'
However, the MAS did not confirm if it had met bankers over concerns on the unprecedented run of perpetual bond sales with retail investors in Singapore, as reported by Reuters, on Monday.
Perpetuals are bond-like instruments, and offer attractive interest returns. However, unlike bonds where an investor gets the interest and principal according to a fixed schedule, issuers of perpetual securities can defer coupon payouts under certain circumstances. Repaying the principal is also left to the issuer's discretion.
The MAS noted: 'If issuers do not exercise the redemption option, investors who wish to exit their investments can only do so by selling them in the secondary market. They will therefore be exposed to market price fluctuations, which could be quite severe, especially if interest rates go up. They may also be exposed to the risk that there could be a lack of willing buyers in adverse markets.'
Retail investors were able to buy into the $500 million offered by Genting Singapore through the automated teller machines of local banks, as per a regular initial public offering.
This is because perpetual securities meet the requirements of an 'Excluded Investment Product' under the SFA. Consequently, they can be sold without advisory services that can point out risks, so long as there is a prospectus available.
While the MAS 'expects issuers to make clear to investors the difference between perpetual securities and other bonds', there is no way of knowing whether the person who reads the prospectus fully comprehends the literature.
While the general public can apply through the ATMs, OCBC Bank sells certain investment products such as dual currency returns and perpetual securities only to their Premier Banking customers and other sophisticated clients.
'We have a structured process of recommending appropriate investment products to these customers. This sales and advisory process requires our sales staff to conduct a financial needs analysis with our customers, which includes understanding their financial objectives, risk profiles, and investment horizons,' said Ms Koh Ching Ching, head of group corporate communications at OCBC.
A DBS spokesman said that retail perpetual bond offerings are marketed just like retail equity and retail plain vanilla bond offerings.
'At the IPO stage, the purchase of these retail instruments is generally self-directed as DBS does not sell them over the counter at branches. Retail investors are referred to the IPO prospectus or offer information statement and can subscribe to them via ATMs.'
[email protected]
Copyright © 2011 Singapore Press Holdings. All rights reserved.
http://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/stocks-shares-indices-92/genting-singapore-perpetual-subordinated-capital-securities-5-125%25-3679888.html
Lodgment of Offer Information Statement
: 9 April 2012
Opening date and time for applications for the Securities under the Public Offer
: 10 April 2012 at 9.00 a.m.
Opening date and time for applications for the Securities under the Reserve Offer
: 9 April 2012 at 2.00 p.m.
Last date and time for applications for the Securities
under the Public Offer
: 16 April 2012 at 12.00 noon
Last date and time for applications for the Securities
under the Reserve Offer
: 11 April 2012 at 5.00 p.m.
Balloting of applications under the Public Offer, if
necessary (in the event of an oversubscription of the
Securities under the Public Offer). Commence returning
or refunding application moneys to unsuccessful or
partially successful applicants
: 17 April 2012
Expected Issue Date of the Securities : 18 April 2012
Expected date of commencement of trading of the
Securities on the Main Board of the SGX-ST
: 19 April 2012
17 May MAS say something. It better to be late than not say anything about the bond, thank you MAS.:cheers4: :cheers4:
Just a gentle reminder, bond has two basic features:
1) paying interest;
2) more importantly, pay the principle at the end of the tuner.
We all now know Lehman Brother "mini-bond" is NOT a bond, because you could lost your principle.
So what is "perpetuate bond"? It is a bond which will pay you principle when the earth disappears.
So Genting will never need to pay you the principle.
You can only sell it in the 2nd market to get your money back. And that selling price is depending on credit rate.
This bond is rated as BBB.
So what is BBB? It is just above "junk bond". So any downgrade, your bond will become a junk.
So what is yield required for a junk bond? 7-8% is reasonable.
For a fixed coupon rate of ONLY 5.x%, how low the price will need to go to generate 7-8% yield?
S$70!
That's the fair value if you think the rating agency (paid by Genting) has slightly inflated the quality. Not mentioning you could lost ALL your principle.
Thanks,
Richard
genting is shxx, equities or bonds. why does it need to raise so much funds through 2 bond exercise just this year alone? never pay dividends for equities too, in spite all the ra-ra news about big profits
Perpetual bonds are Not capital guaranteed.
I suggest you take advice on shares/bonds from other forums.
http://forum.channelnewsasia.com/showthread.php?67438-Genting-Perpetual-5.125-.-For-long-term-investor&
Many people here can't even correctly define what an asset is.
:scared-2:Perpetual bonds with not maturity date = good luck to you
:scared-2:Perpetual bonds with not maturity date = good luck to you
Sad to say many will be taken in by this bond. MAS already cover backside and ask people to beware hor.
Genting make money from casino not good enough, also wanna make money from debt market.
Greed has no boundaries.
I always believe there is good money vs bad money.
Genting is bad money.
My dream is to have enough people shorting it, and de-list it.
It is currently trading at x4 book value, if it goes down to 40% book value (like most of the junk stocks), the market value will be dropped to 10% of its current value.
It is now traded at 20B market value, hopefully it will go down to 2B.
We can then buy it and de-list it!
Thanks,
Richard
PS. I hate the fact it is a STI component stock, it forces innocent people like me to own it when we buy STI index, or buy funds which buy/track STI index.
Sad to say many will be taken in by this bond. MAS already cover backside and ask people to beware hor.
what i see is MAS only give the warning after bond are issued months ago...
:)
I always believe there is good money vs bad money.
Genting is bad money.
My dream is to have enough people shorting it, and de-list it.
It is currently trading at x4 book value, if it goes down to 40% book value (like most of the junk stocks), the market value will be dropped to 10% of its current value.
It is now traded at 20B market value, hopefully it will go down to 2B.
We can then buy it and de-list it!
Thanks,
Richard
PS. I hate the fact it is a STI component stock, it forces innocent people like me to own it when we buy STI index, or buy funds which buy/track STI index.
nice share, uncle wang. :D:D
I always believe there is good money vs bad money.
Genting is bad money.
My dream is to have enough people shorting it, and de-list it.
It is currently trading at x4 book value, if it goes down to 40% book value (like most of the junk stocks), the market value will be dropped to 10% of its current value.
It is now traded at 20B market value, hopefully it will go down to 2B.
We can then buy it and de-list it!
........
does it actually work that way?
if you short it, won't you have to buy back the shares?
Genting is bad money, why ? R u religious or simply taking a moral high ground ?
Genting is a very profitable company. Why it issued a measly 5% perp bond ? Because he is greedy, knowing the general public will grab. 1bln cheap funding obtained. From a business point of view it's very very good deal.
I'm not holding this bond nor recommending it. I merely disagree with your one sided view on this company. It has every reason to be on STI.
:scared-2:Perpetual bonds with not maturity date = good luck to you
Dun be scared. It's the same as pref shares. If you ever dared to buy all those bank's pref shares, perp bond is the same.
I always believe there is good money vs bad money.
Genting is bad money.
My dream is to have enough people shorting it, and de-list it.
It is currently trading at x4 book value, if it goes down to 40% book value (like most of the junk stocks), the market value will be dropped to 10% of its current value.
It is now traded at 20B market value, hopefully it will go down to 2B.
We can then buy it and de-list it!
Thanks,
Richard
PS. I hate the fact it is a STI component stock, it forces innocent people like me to own it when we buy STI index, or buy funds which buy/track STI index.
Excessive gambling is bad, no doubt about it. Genting is a blue chip in my view and it has its reasons to be there. Which STI stock has such a small and relatively simple business model and makes $1 billion? Genting only operates a piece of land in Sentosa to generate such insane profit. SIA operations spans across continents, undertakes high risk air safety operations, and sees their latest quarter results in the red. KepCorp/SembMarine build oil rigs in Brazil, massive know-how to undertake such projects and does not match their profits. A croupier, probably earns $3k a month, can generates millions of earnings to genting. But u need tens/hundreds/thousands of staff to build a oil rig.
The company is not obliged to redeem the perpetual bonds but it can be traded between investors.
Excessive gambling is bad, no doubt about it. Genting is a blue chip in my view and it has its reasons to be there. Which STI stock has such a small and relatively simple business model and makes $1 billion? Genting only operates a piece of land in Sentosa to generate such insane profit. SIA operations spans across continents, undertakes high risk air safety operations, and sees their latest quarter results in the red. KepCorp/SembMarine build oil rigs in Brazil, massive know-how to undertake such projects and does not match their profits. A croupier, probably earns $3k a month, can generates millions of earnings to genting. But u need tens/hundreds/thousands of staff to build a oil rig.
The company is not obliged to redeem the perpetual bonds but it can be traded between investors.
genting is a blue chip stock?! :doh:
dude, if their business is really as robust as you claim, why don't they start paying equity owners dividends? instead of rewarding shareholders, they raise more debt and through that, any future dividend payouts would have to be given, in preference, to bond owners. this further penalizes shareholders unnecessarily.
in a nutshell, it's a greedy company that's hoping investors can turn blind to their antics
genting is a blue chip stock?! :doh:
dude, if their business is really as robust as you claim, why don't they start paying equity owners dividends? instead of rewarding shareholders, they raise more debt and through that, any future dividend payouts would have to be given, in preference, to bond owners. this further penalizes shareholders unnecessarily.
in a nutshell, it's a greedy company that's hoping investors can turn blind to their antics
"blue chip stock": In my view, yes. It is also one of the component stock in the STI index.
"dividends": yes, they have started paying dividends, u don't know? Previously, they cannot pay dividends as this is restricted under the loan convenants.
"raise more debt and through that, any future dividend payouts would have to be given, in preference, to bond owners. this further penalizes shareholders unnecessarily.": this agrument is flawed. If going by your argument, all listed companies should have zero indebtness. You may not be aware, but i do know some other companies "who perceived" themselves to have a stronger credit ratings are not able to secure a perpetual bonds at the same or better the coupon rate as Genting.
"greedy": as for this remark, i have no comments.
"blue chip stock": In my view, yes. It is also one of the component stock in the STI index.
"dividends": yes, they have started paying dividends, u don't know? Previously, they cannot pay dividends as this is restricted under the loan convenants.
"raise more debt and through that, any future dividend payouts would have to be given, in preference, to bond owners. this further penalizes shareholders unnecessarily.": this agrument is flawed. If going by your argument, all listed companies should have zero indebtness. You may not be aware, but i do know some other companies "who perceived" themselves to have a stronger credit ratings are not able to secure a perpetual bonds at the same or better the coupon rate as Genting.
"greedy": as for this remark, i have no comments.
tell me what is the latest dividend payout? 1ct - that's a pretty indecent yield.
secondly, the company is obligated to pay off bond coupons before leaving the remnants for shareholders. this isn't flawed, it's basic company operations 101. :doh:
thirdly, if what you described is true, then genting is paying bondholders a higher coupon rate (with a close to junk rating) for the associated risk. all it needs is a gutsy underwriter. no big deal
tell me what is the latest dividend payout? 1ct - that's a pretty indecent yield.
secondly, the company is obligated to pay off bond coupons before leaving the remnants for shareholders. this isn't flawed, it's basic company operations 101. :doh:
thirdly, if what you described is true, then genting is paying bondholders a higher coupon rate (with a close to junk rating) for the associated risk. all it needs is a gutsy underwriter. no big deal
Answer/comments to:
"your first para": You shouted out aloud they don't pay dividend, (which shows that you don't know) and now keep quiet after you found out it is 1ct and you now move on to comment on the "indecent yield". If you are looking for yield returns, go buy REITS, not genting. Do you know what was the IPO price? I doubt you know many investors are very happy with the gain. Again, do you know why they did not pay dividend in the initial years and the loan conveants? If you don't follow their disclosures, don't make accusations.
"your second para": I meant your argument is flawed that you reasoned that Genting should not issue perpetual bonds as they have to pay out to the bond holders before the equity holders. If that is the case, all listed companies should have zero indebtness. Tell me which listed companies do not issue bonds or take on debts?
"your third para": Genting perpectual bond is junk bond rating? Relax, go and read up on the ratings issued by Moodys, Fitch etc.
To put the matter to rest:
1. You did not know they had started giving out dividends. After being challenged, you checked it out and then back-tracked and move on to comment on yield being "indecent". Please note Genting is not a yield stock, but skewed towards a growth stock. You want yield, buy their perceptual bonds which is the product for you, but then you will not because you rate that as junk.
2. You do not know the reasons why dividends were not given out in the initial years
3. You are not aware on the disclosures and the associated loan convenants on dividend restriction.
4. Your reasoning that issuing perceputal bonds is penalising equity holders is flawed. No listed companies operates their business on 100% equity. Pls look at their financial ratios.
5. You associate their perpectual bonds to junk ratings is without basis. You are not aware on the ratings by Moodys, Fitch etc.
6. You think 5.125% coupon is "high" and it is for junk bond ratings. Obviously, you are not familiar at all on corporate bonds. Junk bonds only needs to give 5+% coupon rate? What a joke.
Hence, if you do not follow reports, disclosures etc, pls don't make wild accusations.
phantom_opera
23-05-12, 18:28
Hao la hao la, don't get personal like Mr B ... u dare to put 300k on Genting stock or bond or not?
Market is always right check share price of Genting:
http://chart.finance.yahoo.com/z?s=G13.SI&t=5y&q=l&l=on&z=l&a=v&p=m200&lang=en-SG®ion=SG
Hao la hao la, don't get personal like Mr B ... u dare to put 300k on Genting stock or bond or not?
Market is always right check share price of Genting:
http://chart.finance.yahoo.com/z?s=G13.SI&t=5y&q=l&l=on&z=l&a=v&p=m200&lang=en-SG®ion=SG
My initial comment was not a reply to his. He came in fierce and baseless, so i got to reciprocate. I did not comment if $300k in genting is right or wrong. If i have $3m to invest, yes i would. If i only have $300k, then no.
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