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Ringo33
04-04-12, 09:46
Wealthy foreigners can't 'buy' PR status anymore

MAS ending scheme allowing those who parked $10m here to fast-track applications

(SINGAPORE) The Monetary Authority of Singapore (MAS) will roll up and put away one red carpet for rich foreigners aiming for permanent residence (PR) here, amid criticism of the influx of immigrants and its impact on asset prices, sources have told BT.

Wealthy foreigners who want their PR application expedited will now have to apply under a different scheme for well-heeled entrepreneurs from abroad who invest in businesses here.

The first programme, known as the Financial Investor Scheme (FIS), will be scrapped by the end of this month, sources told BT on Monday. MAS later confirmed that it is putting an end to the scheme.

Since 2004, FIS has allowed high net worth individuals from overseas with net personal assets of $20 million - and at least $10 million of assets held in Singapore for five years - to get onto a fast track and apply for PR status through private banks or other financial institutions via MAS.

The minimum sum of $10 million was already doubled in 2010 from $5 million, as part of the government's move to curb the flow of immigrants.
Up to $2 million of the $10 million that these wealthy foreigners park here can be used to buy private residential property.

Now that this scheme is being axed, wealthy foreigners can still apply for PR status under the Global Investor Programme (GIP) - a scheme that allows entrepreneurs from abroad to obtain PR.

Unlike FIS, where assets held in Singapore are the main criterion, GIP is aimed at entrepreneurs who have a track record in corporate circles, and is a scheme that can boost employment locally.

Banks are understood to have received notices from the central bank last Friday. No public announcement was made by MAS - which puts banks in a slight fix as clients have to be properly informed, especially if they want their PR applications processed.

Sources told BT that banks have until April 15 to submit the names of prospective applicants, and until the end of this month to provide full details to MAS.

'My speculation is that this has to do with the issues surrounding immigration and property prices,' said one market watcher in the banking industry.

A small knock-on effect may be felt by the private banking and wealth management sectors, with DBS Treasures still advertising its services to help with PR applications under FIS.

One source said that the number of private banking clients coming through his bank's doors as a result of FIS has been minimal. But clients could have applied through several banks if they hold multiple private banking accounts.

A property player noted that from anecdotal evidence, there has been a slowdown in the approval of applications, and a higher rejection rate.
He observed that there was a spike in the number of such foreigners applying via FIS in 2007, when work on the two casinos began, and as Singapore started developing its private banking sector.

But a PR application that was previously approved in four months may now take 12 months, said the source.

'Why should it be so difficult for the high net worth individuals to come, though? It's already such an expensive PR process,' the source said.
In an emailed response to BT yesterday, MAS confirmed that FIS will be removed, but declined to provide details on the number of PR applicants under the scheme.

MAS did not directly respond to queries on how Singapore's recent review of immigration policies and asset bubbles has impacted this decision.

Wild Falcon
04-04-12, 09:59
Hearsay: Lots of PRCs making last minute applications to meet the deadline, e.g. parking money with FI. Private bankers very busy. PRCs prefer to get a PR somewhere as a fall-back plan in case their hardearned money get "confiscated" by communist govt in future, and SG easiest to get PR. Maybe this month transaction more than $2 million ($2 million can be in property) will spike? Keke. But sure will affect the prices in the future.

DC33_2008
04-04-12, 10:00
After Singapore is being ranked 5th by High net-worth individual in the recent survey, Singapore is probably coming up with another scheme by stopping the FIS. Can request from more and higher stake from this group of people. I thought it is better for the luxury and GCB.
Wealthy foreigners can't 'buy' PR status anymore

MAS ending scheme allowing those who parked $10m here to fast-track applications

(SINGAPORE) The Monetary Authority of Singapore (MAS) will roll up and put away one red carpet for rich foreigners aiming for permanent residence (PR) here, amid criticism of the influx of immigrants and its impact on asset prices, sources have told BT.

Wealthy foreigners who want their PR application expedited will now have to apply under a different scheme for well-heeled entrepreneurs from abroad who invest in businesses here.

The first programme, known as the Financial Investor Scheme (FIS), will be scrapped by the end of this month, sources told BT on Monday. MAS later confirmed that it is putting an end to the scheme.

Since 2004, FIS has allowed high net worth individuals from overseas with net personal assets of $20 million - and at least $10 million of assets held in Singapore for five years - to get onto a fast track and apply for PR status through private banks or other financial institutions via MAS.

The minimum sum of $10 million was already doubled in 2010 from $5 million, as part of the government's move to curb the flow of immigrants.
Up to $2 million of the $10 million that these wealthy foreigners park here can be used to buy private residential property.

Now that this scheme is being axed, wealthy foreigners can still apply for PR status under the Global Investor Programme (GIP) - a scheme that allows entrepreneurs from abroad to obtain PR.

Unlike FIS, where assets held in Singapore are the main criterion, GIP is aimed at entrepreneurs who have a track record in corporate circles, and is a scheme that can boost employment locally.

Banks are understood to have received notices from the central bank last Friday. No public announcement was made by MAS - which puts banks in a slight fix as clients have to be properly informed, especially if they want their PR applications processed.

Sources told BT that banks have until April 15 to submit the names of prospective applicants, and until the end of this month to provide full details to MAS.

'My speculation is that this has to do with the issues surrounding immigration and property prices,' said one market watcher in the banking industry.

A small knock-on effect may be felt by the private banking and wealth management sectors, with DBS Treasures still advertising its services to help with PR applications under FIS.

One source said that the number of private banking clients coming through his bank's doors as a result of FIS has been minimal. But clients could have applied through several banks if they hold multiple private banking accounts.

A property player noted that from anecdotal evidence, there has been a slowdown in the approval of applications, and a higher rejection rate.
He observed that there was a spike in the number of such foreigners applying via FIS in 2007, when work on the two casinos began, and as Singapore started developing its private banking sector.

But a PR application that was previously approved in four months may now take 12 months, said the source.

'Why should it be so difficult for the high net worth individuals to come, though? It's already such an expensive PR process,' the source said.
In an emailed response to BT yesterday, MAS confirmed that FIS will be removed, but declined to provide details on the number of PR applicants under the scheme.

MAS did not directly respond to queries on how Singapore's recent review of immigration policies and asset bubbles has impacted this decision.

Wild Falcon
04-04-12, 10:04
I think there is another scheme - if they invest in businesses - I'm sure there will be fast-track. The problem is these PRCs are buying PR status as a "back-up plan" (esp those govt officials with dodgy dealings) by buying property and just parking dormant funds here that does not add value other than cause inflation.

Ringo33
04-04-12, 10:13
Hearsay: Lots of PRCs making last minute applications to meet the deadline, e.g. parking money with FI. Private bankers very busy. PRCs prefer to get a PR somewhere as a fall-back plan in case their hardearned money get "confiscated" by communist govt in future, and SG easiest to get PR. Maybe this month transaction more than $2 million ($2 million can be in property) will spike? Keke. But sure will affect the prices in the future.

IMO, most HNW PRCs will not be able to qualify for GIP.

GIP is aimed at entrepreneurs who have a track record in corporate circles, and is a scheme that can boost employment locally.

avo7007
04-04-12, 10:18
IMO, most HNW PRCs will not be able to qualify for GIP.

GIP is aimed at entrepreneurs who have a track record in corporate circles, and is a scheme that can boost employment locally.

From BT today:

To obtain PR status under the current terms of GIP - which was tweaked as
recently as 2010 - foreigners must have $2.5 million invested in a new
business entity or expansion of an existing business operation. Their
company should have an annual turnover of at least $30 million. And these
businessmen, from 2010, have also not been allowed to include the cost of
buying a private home as part of their required investment.

GIP is expected to be tweaked again soon, one source said. Foreign
businessmen who hold PR status through GIP may have to show an annual
million- dollar expenditure on products and services in Singapore, when the
PR is up for renewal three or five years later.

DC33_2008
04-04-12, 10:19
Bankers told me that they do check the money (large sum, of course) to make sure it is clean before allowing them to invest. Applies to everyone.

avo7007
04-04-12, 10:24
1st ABSD, then strata land ban, and now scrapping FIS. I didn't xenophobia is contagious.:D

Ringo33
04-04-12, 10:26
Bankers told me that they do check the money (large sum, of course) to make sure it is clean before allowing them to invest. Applies to everyone.

If the bankers have dirty hands, everything else will be clean. :D

chiaberry
04-04-12, 10:29
I suspect there's hordes of FT trying to get PR or buy into our properties here. And Govt knows abt it. That's why they are trying to keep them out and stop them from ruining our local Singaporean's dreams of home ownership but jacking up the prices of our homes.

I support the Govt's move to have "productive" money in our economy by foreigners instead of just parking it passively here. At least if pumped into businesses it can help support our local economy and jobs. If just parked passively here, they can faster withdraw it and send it elsewhere easily. Not so if there is an established business. Cannot just withdraw and run.

Rosy
04-04-12, 10:31
This is a good move in the right direction.

We need more foreign wealthy entrepreneurs to come over and create more jobs for the people. We do not want direct inflow of 'hot monies'. Inflation is a big threat and we do not have solution for it other than strengthening SGD which will hurt the export market.

chiaberry
04-04-12, 10:31
If the bankers have dirty hands, everything else will be clean. :D

Agreed. I am not sure it is possible to ensure that the money is clean. It has probably been filtered along the way.

Ringo33
04-04-12, 10:34
I suspect there's hordes of FT trying to get PR or buy into our properties here. And Govt knows abt it. That's why they are trying to keep them out and stop them from ruining our local Singaporean's dreams of home ownership but jacking up the prices of our homes.

I support the Govt's move to have "productive" money in our economy by foreigners instead of just parking it passively here. At least if pumped into businesses it can help support our local economy and jobs. If just parked passively here, they can faster withdraw it and send it elsewhere easily. Not so if there is an established business. Cannot just withdraw and run.

teddybear is going to be very upset with you.

DC33_2008
04-04-12, 10:36
Mutual benefit. Look at what happen to the Standard Chartered RM in China. Got to be extra careful as this is a risk which RM has to take note.
Agreed. I am not sure it is possible to ensure that the money is clean. It has probably been filtered along the way.

ikan bilis
04-04-12, 10:38
"GCB and Luxury Condo is finished"....

haha.... teddybear, amk, ccr should be very "beh-tahan" of your this title... :rolleyes: :D

Ringo33
04-04-12, 10:40
Agreed. I am not sure it is possible to ensure that the money is clean. It has probably been filtered along the way.

Banks are the most ruthless and result oriented employers in the world. And driven by the pressure, bankers will do everything they could to help make the money clean for their clients.

Wild Falcon
04-04-12, 10:41
Frankly, the rule will unlikely affect the GCB because in the first place, only $2 million of property gets counted under the FIS Scheme. It probably will affect those low/mid-end property around the $2 million mark.

chiaberry
04-04-12, 10:42
teddybear is going to be very upset with you.

Policy not implemented by me.

Personally I don't believe in buying luxury condo. I have lower mid-range properties which can rent out to middle management level expat. But lay-out has to be user friendly (good size bedrooms). Easier to find tenants in bad times and esp since expats are now on local terms, cannot expect them to still live in luxury condo.

Ringo33
04-04-12, 10:47
Don't think so. They are not in the GCB league.

If it says CCR is finished, then they not happy....

Frankly, the rule will unlikely affect the GCB because in the first place, only $2 million of property gets counted. It probably will affect those low/mid-end property around the $2 million mark.

$2m is just to qualify as PR under FIS scheme, once you are a PR sky will be the limit.

avo7007
04-04-12, 10:49
I too think that GCB is not going to be affected as only local citizen is allow to buy it. As for high end condo, they are not in great shape after ABSD and this new policy from MAS is not helping.............

DC33_2008
04-04-12, 10:50
Prefer to have a spread of properties but not smaller than 950sqft (2-bedder) and furthest limit is city fringe.
Policy not implemented by me.

Personally I don't believe in buying luxury condo. I have lower mid-range properties which can rent out to middle management level expat. But lay-out has to be user friendly (good size bedrooms). Easier to find tenants in bad times and esp since expats are now on local terms, cannot expect them to still live in luxury condo.

teddybear
04-04-12, 10:50
No worry, I am objective person, Know sis berry very nice lady and very objective. :)

There are 2 kind of luxury condos, those good location ones, good quality, good design and layout (practical ones, not those so-called top architect designing not-practical properties, good to look but not good to live in), well maintained, where you pay for quality and location VS those termed "luxury" because the price are super expensive in that locality, e.g. Thomson Grand... :p
And I will never ever pay >15% premium for new launch vs resale nearby (taking into consideration 20% useless space for new launch now, even parity price also not worth it :doh:).... Don't want to be carrot head, and don't believe there are greater fools out there to take over the baby (greater fools believers believe they are smarter than others and there will always be some idiots to take over their "babies" at higher price)....


Policy not implemented by me.

Personally I don't believe in buying luxury condo. I have lower mid-range properties which can rent out to middle management level expat. But lay-out has to be user friendly (good size bedrooms). Easier to find tenants in bad times and esp since expats are now on local terms, cannot expect them to still live in luxury condo.

teddybear is going to be very upset with you.

Ringo33
04-04-12, 10:51
Policy not implemented by me.

Personally I don't believe in buying luxury condo. I have lower mid-range properties which can rent out to middle management level expat. But lay-out has to be user friendly (good size bedrooms). Easier to find tenants in bad times and esp since expats are now on local terms, cannot expect them to still live in luxury condo.

When people are spending ah gong's money, they will go for First Class luxury condo. When they start paying for their own accommodation, you will find them them living in the outskirt of Singapore so that they can afford a bigger apartment.

teddybear
04-04-12, 10:58
What makes you believe that people living in First Class luxury condo is spending ah gong's money? :doh:
Can't they earn themselves? They had worked hard previously and now enjoying the fruits of their labour cannot? Think your attitude is too one-sided. I can easily point a few rich men living in luxury condos and GCBs who started from scratch with no parental support (parents not rich).


When people are spending ah gong's money, they will go for First Class luxury condo. When they start paying for their own accommodation, you will find them them living in the outskirt of Singapore so that they can afford a bigger apartment.

teddybear
04-04-12, 11:06
What is there to "beh-tahan"? Let market takes its natural course loh.... Anyway, it is not like it is bad? The moves will help create more jobs in Singapore!

And the govt should also take necessary actions to tame the OCR private properties bubble now brewing! Resale transactions keep going down and died while new launch transactions & prices keep going up. Their policies must be skewed to favour new launch right? + banks valuations problem + developers CASH-Back loophole!

We need more real foreign talents, just like real rich foreign PRs who can create jobs in Singapore, not those being paid <$8k pm foreigners in Singapore that are stealing the middle-income local citizens jobs! Govt should also do something these group of foreigners next! :simmering:
Don't you see the service sector is now filled with Filipinos, Chinese from China etc now? The usual excuse: Citizens don't want the job. Really? hah? Tell them to pay >=$3k pm on 8 hours shift only and see whether locals want or not? It is because of super long hours and low pay which is why no citizens want to take up these jobs!



"GCB and Luxury Condo is finished"....

haha.... teddybear, amk, ccr should be very "beh-tahan" of your this title... :rolleyes: :D

Ringo33
04-04-12, 11:12
What makes you believe that people living in First Class luxury condo is spending ah gong's money? :doh:
Can't they earn themselves? They had worked hard previously and now enjoying the fruits of their labour cannot? Think your attitude is too one-sided. I can easily point a few rich men living in luxury condos and GCBs who started from scratch with no parental support (parents not rich).

relax lah teddy, why are you so predictable? :D I was just talking to chiaberry about renting apartment to expat, not talking about luxury condo and GCBs.

as for ah gong money, it is the same way how Solitaire and PPS member will often fly economy class when they are paying for their own holiday.

chiaberry
04-04-12, 11:14
It's getting more difficult to recruit FT. There are currently job vacancies in my line and my organization. We had given job offers to 2 FT but their application to the relevant authorities were REJECTED. Reason(s) unknown. We really really need those personnel as the locals had turned down our advances even refusing to consider the $$$ offered. :banghead:

hehe put up all your antennae as to what is this job chiabery is doing that no locals want to come and work here? :scared-5:

Rosegarden
04-04-12, 11:15
The slew of measures lately seem to discourage higher-end potential PRs but nothing for the working level potential PRs. Given the government is intent on growing the population via assimilation of foreigners, what is the target demographic profile and why?

avo7007
04-04-12, 11:22
hehe put up all your antennae as to what is this job chiabery is doing that no locals want to come and work here? :scared-5:

Prostitution ring? :D

teddybear
04-04-12, 11:27
I am against the working class PRs. These are the ones stealing jobs from local citizens! :simmering:

We need more high-end rich PRs regardless of whether they set up business or not! The fact that they can spend more already good for local consumption economy!

Govt policy got problem again? Why like their policies make new launch private properties hit new record transactions and record prices? :banghead:


The slew of measures lately seem to discourage higher-end potential PRs but nothing for the working level potential PRs. Given the government is intent on growing the population via assimilation of foreigners, what is the target demographic profile and why?

chiaberry
04-04-12, 11:32
:axekiller:


Prostitution ring? :D

ilovekopi
04-04-12, 12:02
So govt is now attracting Foreign Entrepreneurs instead of Foreign Talents?

Singapore and Asia will be business hub.

Given the situation in the West, cheaper labour and material will come from the West. Instead of Made in China, we will soon be seeing alot of Made in Greece etc?

Something like that?



Wealthy foreigners can't 'buy' PR status anymore

MAS ending scheme allowing those who parked $10m here to fast-track applications

(SINGAPORE) The Monetary Authority of Singapore (MAS) will roll up and put away one red carpet for rich foreigners aiming for permanent residence (PR) here, amid criticism of the influx of immigrants and its impact on asset prices, sources have told BT.

Wealthy foreigners who want their PR application expedited will now have to apply under a different scheme for well-heeled entrepreneurs from abroad who invest in businesses here.

The first programme, known as the Financial Investor Scheme (FIS), will be scrapped by the end of this month, sources told BT on Monday. MAS later confirmed that it is putting an end to the scheme.

Since 2004, FIS has allowed high net worth individuals from overseas with net personal assets of $20 million - and at least $10 million of assets held in Singapore for five years - to get onto a fast track and apply for PR status through private banks or other financial institutions via MAS.

The minimum sum of $10 million was already doubled in 2010 from $5 million, as part of the government's move to curb the flow of immigrants.
Up to $2 million of the $10 million that these wealthy foreigners park here can be used to buy private residential property.

Now that this scheme is being axed, wealthy foreigners can still apply for PR status under the Global Investor Programme (GIP) - a scheme that allows entrepreneurs from abroad to obtain PR.

Unlike FIS, where assets held in Singapore are the main criterion, GIP is aimed at entrepreneurs who have a track record in corporate circles, and is a scheme that can boost employment locally.

Banks are understood to have received notices from the central bank last Friday. No public announcement was made by MAS - which puts banks in a slight fix as clients have to be properly informed, especially if they want their PR applications processed.

Sources told BT that banks have until April 15 to submit the names of prospective applicants, and until the end of this month to provide full details to MAS.

'My speculation is that this has to do with the issues surrounding immigration and property prices,' said one market watcher in the banking industry.

A small knock-on effect may be felt by the private banking and wealth management sectors, with DBS Treasures still advertising its services to help with PR applications under FIS.

One source said that the number of private banking clients coming through his bank's doors as a result of FIS has been minimal. But clients could have applied through several banks if they hold multiple private banking accounts.

A property player noted that from anecdotal evidence, there has been a slowdown in the approval of applications, and a higher rejection rate.
He observed that there was a spike in the number of such foreigners applying via FIS in 2007, when work on the two casinos began, and as Singapore started developing its private banking sector.

But a PR application that was previously approved in four months may now take 12 months, said the source.

'Why should it be so difficult for the high net worth individuals to come, though? It's already such an expensive PR process,' the source said.
In an emailed response to BT yesterday, MAS confirmed that FIS will be removed, but declined to provide details on the number of PR applicants under the scheme.

MAS did not directly respond to queries on how Singapore's recent review of immigration policies and asset bubbles has impacted this decision.

amk
04-04-12, 12:23
1st ABSD, then strata land ban, and now scrapping FIS. I didn't xenophobia is contagious.:D

and the P1 registration "absolute priority for citizens".

This is politically charged.

Naruto
04-04-12, 12:24
Business Newshttp://www.channelnewsasia.com/images/icon_minus.gif (http://forums.condosingapore.com/)http://www.channelnewsasia.com/images/icon_plus.gif (http://forums.condosingapore.com/)http://www.channelnewsasia.com/images/shim.gif China's Premier Wen urges end to banks' lending 'monopoly'
Posted: 04 April 2012 1025

BEIJING: China's Premier Wen Jiabao has called for the break-up of a
banking "monopoly" on lending that has squeezed private businesses as
the global economy slows, state media reported.

Wen said the banks' stranglehold on lending needed to be broken
to ease the flow of private capital in the world's second-largest economy, in comments published on the China National Radio website early Wednesday.

"In regards to financing costs, let me honestly say that our banks
are making a profit too easily. Why is this so? It's because a few big banks are in a monopoly position," he said.

"Only when we approach these banks can we successfully get loans, if we go to other places it is very difficult.

"What we can now do to ease private capital flow into the financial system, fundamentally speaking, is to break this monopoly."

China has seen an explosion in underground lending fuelled by
credit restrictions, raising concerns among top leaders about a
surge in bad debts and defaults in the private sector.

Independent business owners have been borrowing money at high interest rates from informal lenders after being rejected by major banks, who favour other state-controlled enterprises because their debts are implicitly guaranteed by the government.

Wen, who is due to step down in 2013 after 10 years as prime minister, was speaking during a tour of two southern provinces -- Fujian and Guangxi -- where many of the country's factories are located.

Wen, who last month called for "urgent" reform in China, also said an experimental package of changes that were recently introduced in the eastern city of Wenzhou to help struggling private firms could be expanded nationwide.

Those reforms included encouraging state-owned banks to lend more to small firms and allowing private companies to issue corporate bonds to raise funds.

Wenzhou, which has 400,000 private companies, has earned a reputation as the centre of China's private economy.

It was hit by a debt crisis last year when more than 90 bosses of private companies fled after being unable to repay crippling debts as the economy slowed.

The crisis cast a spotlight on underground lending that had flourished in the city as authorities clamped down on official financing channels and major banks chose to lend mainly to large state-owned enterprises.

China's economy is widely expected to slow this year as woes in key export markets such as Europe and the United States hit its overseas sales, with smaller companies likely to suffer more than state-owned giants.

In February, China's central bank cut commercial banks' reserve requirement ratio -- the funds banks must place in reserve -- by 0.50 percentage points to ease restrictions on lending.

China is largely expected to further ease monetary policy by cutting reserve requirements as growth slows to help prevent a "hard landing" for the huge economy, analysts say.

- AFP/wm

Naruto
04-04-12, 12:26
It was hit by a debt crisis last year when more than 90 bosses of private companies fled after being unable to repay crippling debts as the economy slowed.

One of the places in their list to fled? These ppls can be cash rich beyond our imagination.. These started years back.. Some even stay in hotels in years..
How not to run road, stay there kena caught for any wrong doing.. pay your own
bullet to be killed leh..

ikan bilis
04-04-12, 12:27
What is there to "beh-tahan"? Let market takes its natural course loh.... Anyway, it is not like it is bad? The moves will help create more jobs in Singapore!

And the govt should also take necessary actions to tame the OCR private properties bubble now brewing! Resale transactions keep going down and died while new launch transactions & prices keep going up. Their policies must be skewed to favour new launch right? + banks valuations problem + developers CASH-Back loophole!

We need more real foreign talents, just like real rich foreign PRs who can create jobs in Singapore, not those being paid <$8k pm foreigners in Singapore that are stealing the middle-income local citizens jobs! Govt should also do something these group of foreigners next! :simmering:
Don't you see the service sector is now filled with Filipinos, Chinese from China etc now? The usual excuse: Citizens don't want the job. Really? hah? Tell them to pay >=$3k pm on 8 hours shift only and see whether locals want or not? It is because of super long hours and low pay which is why no citizens want to take up these jobs!

haha... not arguing anything on OCR vs CCR... talking purely on govt policies only.... think can bet with you govt will not do anything on OCR, not on MM also... votes count lah... ;) :D

hyenergix
04-04-12, 13:07
It's getting more difficult to recruit FT. There are currently job vacancies in my line and my organization. We had given job offers to 2 FT but their application to the relevant authorities were REJECTED. Reason(s) unknown. We really really need those personnel as the locals had turned down our advances even refusing to consider the $$$ offered. :banghead:

hehe put up all your antennae as to what is this job chiabery is doing that no locals want to come and work here? :scared-5:

To engage local workers, besides the starting salary, you have to offer them job advancement potential. You may need to review the job scope and opportunities. Rising living cost and lesser job security are making workers think harder for their own future.

august
04-04-12, 13:11
I am against the working class PRs. These are the ones stealing jobs from local citizens! :simmering:

We need more high-end rich PRs regardless of whether they set up business or not! The fact that they can spend more already good for local consumption economy!

Govt policy got problem again? Why like their policies make new launch private properties hit new record transactions and record prices? :banghead:

hear hear :)

hyenergix
04-04-12, 13:31
I am against the working class PRs. These are the ones stealing jobs from local citizens! :simmering:

We need more high-end rich PRs regardless of whether they set up business or not! The fact that they can spend more already good for local consumption economy!

Govt policy got problem again? Why like their policies make new launch private properties hit new record transactions and record prices? :banghead:

There are many specialised trades that require skills from people of different background and training. Our education system and society may not be able to produce sufficient people of these skills e.g. works on marina barrage or DTSS. They key is balancing the needs of the industries (the more cheap labour supply the better) versus the needs of the locals (higher pay and more on the job training and advancement opportunities).

There was a tremedous change in this balance in 2005 to 2010. It will probably take another 5-10 years to return to the balance. The series of knee-jerk reactions now may do more harm than good.

dtrax
04-04-12, 14:01
Once again, my FT purchase report still stands. In terms of quantity of purchase, many FT's are still chionging the lower tier region (red/blue zone) as contrast to the higher end (yellow region) - this is only for non-landed (excluding EC). I have a feeling that the gov recognize the fact that these FT might be chionging these mass-market buy purchasing many units as a way to buy their way to getting a PR based. I might be wrong but it does not make sense that with the increasing ocr/rcr pricings, the gov is still attacking the higher end market. What do you guys think?


http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7046/6818376050_c95b873257_z.jpg

Poloclub
04-04-12, 14:09
Once again, my FT purchase report still stands. In terms of quantity of purchase, many FT's are still chionging the lower tier region (red/blue zone) as contrast to the higher end (yellow region) - this is only for non-landed (excluding EC). I have a feeling that the gov recognize the fact that these FT might be chionging these mass-market buy purchasing many units as a way to buy their way to getting a PR based. I might be wrong but it does not make sense that with the increasing ocr/rcr pricings, the gov is still attacking the higher end market. What do you guys think?


http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7046/6818376050_c95b873257_z.jpg

need to look at post CM5 data lah.

teddybear
04-04-12, 14:09
The figures shows that many are low & mid income foreigners (and as you can see, from mostly China and India), and these are the ones stealing middle-income local jobs, then bid up the mass market property prices! :banghead:
Why no rules to tackle this? :doh:


Once again, my FT purchase report still stands. In terms of quantity of purchase, many FT's are still chionging the lower tier region (red/blue zone) as contrast to the higher end (yellow region) - this is only for non-landed (excluding EC). I have a feeling that the gov recognize the fact that these FT might be chionging these mass-market buy purchasing many units as a way to buy their way to getting a PR based. I might be wrong but it does not make sense that with the increasing ocr/rcr pricings, the gov is still attacking the higher end market. What do you guys think?


http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7046/6818376050_c95b873257_z.jpg

ikan bilis
04-04-12, 14:10
Once again, my FT purchase report still stands. In terms of quantity of purchase, many FT's are still chionging the lower tier region (red/blue zone) as contrast to the higher end (yellow region) - this is only for non-landed (excluding EC). I have a feeling that the gov recognize the fact that these FT might be chionging these mass-market buy purchasing many units as a way to buy their way to getting a PR based. I might be wrong but it does not make sense that with the increasing ocr/rcr pricings, the gov is still attacking the higher end market. What do you guys think?


http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7046/6818376050_c95b873257_z.jpg

show quantum better, this table difficult to see...

but anyway...
8K-12Kpsm, 4182/6743 = 62% bot by local
>21Kpsm, 292/918 = 32% bot by local...

dtrax
04-04-12, 14:16
need to look at post CM5 data lah.

Yes post CM5 data is useful, but do you think the gov do not monitor the past qrs and just implement solely based on the last few months? The fact that I dug out since Jan 2011 is the give a longer horizon to give a more accurate figure on the purchase size over 1yr

Wild Falcon
04-04-12, 14:18
Not true. If you are a real talent, you will get the PR. More to discourage the backdoor PR - those who take SG as a "backup plan" and has no intention of living here or contributing here. They invest some dormant funds and property just to have "insurance". Mostly PRC government officials with lots of money.



The slew of measures lately seem to discourage higher-end potential PRs but nothing for the working level potential PRs. Given the government is intent on growing the population via assimilation of foreigners, what is the target demographic profile and why?

teddybear
04-04-12, 14:22
PR got backdoor and no backdoor PR? :doh:
Working-class PRs even worse, steal local citizens jobs, cause over-crowding on MRTs and buses and frequent breakdown, cause mass market properties to shoot up to sky, after earn enough sell their mass market properties and retire at cheap costs in their own native country. You think non-back-door PRs means they have intention of living here? Working-class non-back-door PRs contribute what? Contribute to Steal good jobs & pays of citizens! :simmering:


Not true. If you are a real talent, you will get the PR. More to discourage the backdoor PR - those who take SG as a "backup plan" and has no intention of living here or contributing here. They invest some dormant funds and property just to have "insurance". Mostly PRC government officials with lots of money.

Wild Falcon
04-04-12, 14:23
There are different types of PR right? Type A: PR who work and live here. Clearly, they will buy property that is within their means and they feel has upside and value for money. Their decision point will be no different from a Singaporean.

Then you have Type B: those PR who just wants a PR as "insurance", in case next time if there is any political upheavals in PRC (its still a communist state), they can immediately run to Singapore to hide and their money safe. These type of PR don't stay here and don't intend to contribute. They just buy their way into a PR by investing $10 million here (for which $2 million can be property). Clearly, they will do the "bare minimum" to qualify, so chances are they will NOT buy the GCB, they buy the neither-here-nor-there lowmid-end $2 million property.

The ruling is to stop the latter group from investing. Not the first group who truly live here and pay taxes.



show quantum better, this table difficult to see...

but anyway...
8K-12Kpsm, 4182/6743 = 62% bot by local
>21Kpsm, 292/918 = 32% bot by local...

Wild Falcon
04-04-12, 14:27
Permanent Residents who DO NOT live here permanently. They got the PR through the scheme. That's why the scheme is taken away now.

Understand? We don't want this type of PR who do NOT contribute AT ALL.

Can you for once think about the country and not about your property value all the time??????


PR got backdoor and no backdoor PR? :doh:
Working-class PRs even worse, steal local citizens jobs, cause over-crowding on MRTs and buses and frequent breakdown, cause mass market properties to shoot up to sky, after earn enough sell their mass market properties and retire at cheap costs in their own native country. You think non-back-door PRs means they have intention of living here? Working-class non-back-door PRs contribute what? Contribute to Steal good jobs & pays of citizens! :simmering:

yowetan
04-04-12, 14:28
It's getting more difficult to recruit FT. There are currently job vacancies in my line and my organization. We had given job offers to 2 FT but their application to the relevant authorities were REJECTED. Reason(s) unknown. We really really need those personnel as the locals had turned down our advances even refusing to consider the $$$ offered. :banghead:

hehe put up all your antennae as to what is this job chiabery is doing that no locals want to come and work here? :scared-5:

Hi, could you forward me the JD? I am keen to apply and it has to be >8k/mthly.

teddybear
04-04-12, 14:30
We local citizens want the cheap PRs (Type B) out! They steal local citizens good paying jobs! They allow employers to get cheap labours and favour giving jobs to foreigners at low pay than citizens! They cause over-crowding of our public facilities like MRTs, buses, roads, hospitals! They take away vacancies in schools, particularly good primary schools, take away vacancies in good discipline in NTU and NUS and deprive local citizens of a place there! :simmering:

On the other hand, we welcome Type A PR. They park money here, buy a property and come here for holidays to spend money, boost local consumption without causing over-crowding of our public facilities like MRTs, buses, roads, hospitals!


There are different types of PR right? Type A: PR who work and live here. Clearly, they will buy property that is within their means and they feel has upside and value for money. Their decision point will be no different from a Singaporean.

Then you have Type B: those PR who just wants a PR as "insurance", in case next time if there is any political upheavals in PRC (its still a communist state), they can immediately run to Singapore to hide and their money safe. These type of PR don't stay here and don't intend to contribute. They just buy their way into a PR by investing $10 million here (for which $2 million can be property). Clearly, they will do the "bare minimum" to qualify, so chances are they will NOT buy the GCB, they buy the neither-here-nor-there lowmid-end $2 million property.

The ruling is to stop the latter group from investing. Not the first group who truly live here and pay taxes.

teddybear
04-04-12, 14:32
We lagi don't want PRs who steal the good paying jobs of citizens! :p
We rather have "this type of PR who do NOT contribute AT ALL." than PRs who steal citizens jobs!

Can you for once think for the well-being of our citizens who are deprived of good jobs because of these PRs?




Permanent Residents who DO NOT live here permanently. They got the PR through the scheme. That's why the scheme is taken away now.

Understand? We don't want this type of PR who do NOT contribute AT ALL.

Can you for once think about the country and not about your property value all the time??????

Wild Falcon
04-04-12, 14:33
Do you know the meaning of "PERMANENT RESIDENTS"?

Are you suggesting giving PR to people who do not live here permanently and no intention to live here, instead of people who live and work here and may set up family here? And the only criteria is money?

I will have more respect if you say we should tighten the criteria for Type B - people who contribute and pay taxed etc. Then I will agree. But to give PR to people who have no intention to stay here is meaningless. That's why it is taken away.



We local citizens want the cheap PRs (Type B) out! They steal local citizens good paying jobs! They allow employers to get cheap labours and favour giving jobs to foreigners at low pay than citizens! They cause over-crowding of our public facilities like MRTs, buses, roads, hospitals! They take away vacancies in schools, particularly good primary schools, take away vacancies in good discipline in NTU and NUS and deprive local citizens of a place there! :simmering:

On the other hand, we welcome Type A PR. They park money here, buy a property and come here for holidays to spend money, boost local consumption without causing over-crowding of our public facilities like MRTs, buses, roads, hospitals!

teddybear
04-04-12, 14:42
What respect you expect when they steal your good-paying jobs (think in these citizens position!)? Will you be saying the same thing when you are in your 40s, can't find any good paying jobs, and all these jobs filled by PRs? What is the difference between PRs and foreigners? ZERO! :simmering:
Why are talking about these PRs paying taxes etc? You mean PR who buy properties and come here on holidays don't contribute to govt coffers?
Ok, can, govt prefer PRs who steal good paying jobs of citizens? Never mind, up to the citizens to decide with their votes then. :p


Do you know the meaning of "PERMANENT RESIDENTS"?

Are you suggesting giving PR to people who do not live here permanently and no intention to live here, instead of people who live and work here and may set up family here? And the only criteria is money?

I will have more respect if you say we should tighten the criteria for Type B - people who contribute and pay taxed etc. Then I will agree. But to give PR to people who have no intention to stay here is meaningless. That's why it is taken away.

Poloclub
04-04-12, 14:57
Yes post CM5 data is useful, but do you think the gov do not monitor the past qrs and just implement solely based on the last few months? The fact that I dug out since Jan 2011 is the give a longer horizon to give a more accurate figure on the purchase size over 1yr

what I was trying to say is CM5 was introduce to contain the foreigners buying trend from 2011. What to expect from CM6 will depends on 2012 buying trend.

hyenergix
04-04-12, 15:02
Once again, my FT purchase report still stands. In terms of quantity of purchase, many FT's are still chionging the lower tier region (red/blue zone) as contrast to the higher end (yellow region) - this is only for non-landed (excluding EC). I have a feeling that the gov recognize the fact that these FT might be chionging these mass-market buy purchasing many units as a way to buy their way to getting a PR based. I might be wrong but it does not make sense that with the increasing ocr/rcr pricings, the gov is still attacking the higher end market. What do you guys think?




I recall you posted something similar about 1-2 months ago. Perhaps MAS picked it up from here and use it as this cooling measure.

Condo Kaiser
04-04-12, 15:56
There are different types of PR right? Type A: PR who work and live here. Clearly, they will buy property that is within their means and they feel has upside and value for money. Their decision point will be no different from a Singaporean.

Then you have Type B: those PR who just wants a PR as "insurance", in case next time if there is any political upheavals in PRC (its still a communist state), they can immediately run to Singapore to hide and their money safe. These type of PR don't stay here and don't intend to contribute. They just buy their way into a PR by investing $10 million here (for which $2 million can be property). Clearly, they will do the "bare minimum" to qualify, so chances are they will NOT buy the GCB, they buy the neither-here-nor-there lowmid-end $2 million property.

The ruling is to stop the latter group from investing. Not the first group who truly live here and pay taxes.

Actually Type B PR also not bad in my opinion.... Singapore can become Monaco of the east.... Dont really understand why govt want to stop the ultra rich from coming here....

Wild Falcon
04-04-12, 16:00
They can still come and spend their money like other foreigners no different from Monaco. I don't think Monaco give out PR that easily (correct me if I'm wrong). They are just not given permanent residency, if they dont have and have no intention of permanent residence here.


Actually Type B PR also not bad in my opinion.... Singapore can become Monaco of the east.... Dont really understand why govt want to stop the ultra rich from coming here....

dtrax
04-04-12, 16:01
what I was trying to say is CM5 was introduce to contain the foreigners buying trend from 2011. What to expect from CM6 will depends on 2012 buying trend.


I guess it is quite clear the trend for CCR sales figure for new/resale is pretty much dead [actually no need to guess coz I have the figures on hand including live deals from SRX], OCR/RCR buyers are continuing to chiong like no 2moro

Also caveats are backlog data.. in fact Feb stats shows post CM5 already since the caveat might take 8wks to show since Dec CM5. Also for any real effects of a CM it will usually take a few months for the trend to show, so that means need to wait for May/June to further analyze the buyer's buying pattern

eng81157
04-04-12, 16:06
Actually Type B PR also not bad in my opinion.... Singapore can become Monaco of the east.... Dont really understand why govt want to stop the ultra rich from coming here....

i don't believe the govt is sending out a signal to stop the ultra rich from coming here. firstly, it goes against the grain of most of its policies. secondly, i don't think CM5 will have a huge dent in the pockets of the ultra rich. think about susan lim selling her sentosa bungalow to some top chap in reliance. thirdly, locals are sick of FTs snatching low to mid end jobs and lead to a depression of wages, not the ultra rich flying in with their private jets and blowing $20m at MBS.

it's a political tightrope the govt is threading upon.

dtrax
04-04-12, 16:29
For the benefit of everyone here, I shall post some highly classified data hehe :)

Take the big 5 countries for example[inclusive singapore], the percentage of yellow zone (>2mil) vs all purchases in big 5 is JUST MERELY 8.6%

Even if we take purchases > 1.5m vs all purchases in big 5, it is just a HUMBLE 17.9%

Not to bash the TS title about "Luxury + GCB is the End", but question is: If the gov is ceasing FIS as a form of property price control, are they really targeting these 17.9% group or the 82.1% opposition?

We all know for sure firesales for luxury are still restricted to mainly large quantum units [if you see many many firesales CCR within 1.5mil region, please tell me :)]

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5114/6898282778_1dcd7c6db7_b.jpg

minority
04-04-12, 17:16
What respect you expect when they steal your good-paying jobs (think in these citizens position!)? Will you be saying the same thing when you are in your 40s, can't find any good paying jobs, and all these jobs filled by PRs? What is the difference between PRs and foreigners? ZERO! :simmering:
Why are talking about these PRs paying taxes etc? You mean PR who buy properties and come here on holidays don't contribute to govt coffers?
Ok, can, govt prefer PRs who steal good paying jobs of citizens? Never mind, up to the citizens to decide with their votes then. :p

Actually I agree I rather have the high net worth here. Their purchase do not conflict with the locals population. and they don't take away the middle class jobs.

Wild Falcon
04-04-12, 17:19
I think everyone is going out of point here.

High Net Worth can still come lah and invest if they want. The only diff is cannot BUY Permanent Residency. That's all. Permanent Residency to be given to people living permanently here, based on various principles. Its not going to affect the GCBs for sure.

Actually I agree I rather have the high net worth here. Their purchase do not conflict with the locals population. and they don't take away the middle class jobs.

teddybear
04-04-12, 17:37
Do you know what is PR? If they want to stay for 2months in SG for holiday, under social visit, they have to leave the country evey 2 weeks n then visit again? Isn't a lot of hassles for them? If pr, they can stay as long as they like so their ps status is still valid.


I think everyone is going out of point here.

High Net Worth can still come lah and invest if they want. The only diff is cannot BUY Permanent Residency. That's all. Permanent Residency to be given to people living permanently here, based on various principles. Its not going to affect the GCBs for sure.

minority
04-04-12, 17:40
I think everyone is going out of point here.

High Net Worth can still come lah and invest if they want. The only diff is cannot BUY Permanent Residency. That's all. Permanent Residency to be given to people living permanently here, based on various principles. Its not going to affect the GCBs for sure.


If the high net worth cannot buy the GCB or high end CCR. then how is that a benefit singapore? buy watches and shopping here? tats small $

value
04-04-12, 17:54
For the benefit of everyone here, I shall post some highly classified data hehe :)

Take the big 5 countries for example[inclusive singapore], the percentage of yellow zone (>2mil) vs all purchases in big 5 is JUST MERELY 8.6%

Even if we take purchases > 1.5m vs all purchases in big 5, it is just a HUMBLE 17.9%

Not to bash the TS title about "Luxury + GCB is the End", but question is: If the gov is ceasing FIS as a form of property price control, are they really targeting these 17.9% group or the 82.1% opposition?

We all know for sure firesales for luxury are still restricted to mainly large quantum units [if you see many many firesales CCR within 1.5mil region, please tell me :)]


Would be interesting to look at the data excluding ECs...:)

buttercarp
04-04-12, 19:14
Do you know what is PR? If they want to stay for 2months in SG for holiday, under social visit, they have to leave the country evey 2 weeks n then visit again? Isn't a lot of hassles for them? If pr, they can stay as long as they like so their ps status is still valid.

My immediate neighbour is Indonesian and they have been staying here for the past 10 years.
The husband is a businessman who travels alot. The wife is a homemaker.
Dunno why they are not PR. The wife is a peidu mama, the kids are on student pass and the husband goes in and out of Singapore every 2 weeks.
Very strange as I would have thought they could have applied for PR 10 years ago and got it easily.

My another immediate neighbour from India, on the otherhand, are PR's already and they have been here less than 3 years.

teddybear
04-04-12, 19:32
So, my conclusion is (as I have mentioned before):
1) Govt barking up wrong tree (or they wayang)? The CCR and foreigners purchase are negligible, but they yet they targeted foreigners with ABSD, now remove PR status, etc etc.

2) The most transactions 91.4% are properties <$2m, mainly in OCR. The OCR bubble is so big, mainly bought by Singapore citizens, but they did nothing! So much so for saying "wanting to cool the property bubble"! :doh:


For the benefit of everyone here, I shall post some highly classified data hehe :)

Take the big 5 countries for example[inclusive singapore], the percentage of yellow zone (>2mil) vs all purchases in big 5 is JUST MERELY 8.6%

Even if we take purchases > 1.5m vs all purchases in big 5, it is just a HUMBLE 17.9%

Not to bash the TS title about "Luxury + GCB is the End", but question is: If the gov is ceasing FIS as a form of property price control, are they really targeting these 17.9% group or the 82.1% opposition?

We all know for sure firesales for luxury are still restricted to mainly large quantum units [if you see many many firesales CCR within 1.5mil region, please tell me :)]

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5114/6898282778_1dcd7c6db7_b.jpg

dtrax
04-04-12, 19:40
Would be interesting to look at the data excluding ECs...:)
ECs is never a major contributing factor :)
Even you exclude it is a mere 9.7% and 20% respectively :):)

bargain hunter
04-04-12, 19:44
either pay up tomorrow or take back!

http://info.sgx.com/webcoranncatth.nsf/VwAttachments/Att_E9E89D113338FC10482579D6000AF6B8/$file/CES_UpdateofSuit_4Apr12.PDF?openelement




Further to the announcement dated 27 March 2012, with regards to the Writ of Summons issued by Pearl Properties Pte Ltd, Pearl Properties II Pte Ltd and Pearl Properties V Pte Ltd (collectively “Pearl Properties”) against Grange Properties Pte Ltd (“Grange Properties”), an associated company of Chip Eng Seng Corporation Ltd in Suit No. 498 of 2011/S commenced in the High Court of Singapore (“the Suit”) in relation to the Development known as Grange Infinite (“Grange Infinite”), the Board of Directors of Chip Eng Seng Corporation Ltd. wishes to make further announcements on this matter.


As announced on 16 March 2012, Grange Properties issued notices pursuant to clause 5.4(a) of the Sale and Purchase Agreements (“SPAs”) on 23 February 2012 for Units #20-03 and #36-01 for Pearl Properties to make payments of S$1,373,872.50 and S$1,934,699.00 respectively inclusive of interest thereon pursuant to Clause 6 of the SPAs, within 21 days, failing which, the SPAs will be treated as annulled and Grange Properties will be entitled to regain possession of the two units and exercise their rights under clause 7.4 of the SPAs. On 1 March 2012, Pearl Properties made an application for an injunction in Summons No. 1008 of 2012/N against Grange Properties.

On 3 April 2012, the application in Summons No. 1008 of 2012/N was heard before the Honourable Justice Lee Seiu Kin. The Honourable Judge dismissed Pearl Properties’ application with costs payable to Grange Properties. Grange Properties is represented by Rodyk & Davidson LLP and the application was argued by Senior Counsel Philip Jeyaretnam, assisted by his team.

Following the Court’s decision, the SPAs for Units #20-03 and #36-01 will be treated as annulled on 6 April 2012, unless the outstanding payments of S$1,373,872.50 and S$1,934,699.00 respectively, inclusive of late payment interest, are paid to Grange Properties or their solicitors by 5 April 2012.

Grange Properties is considering its position in relation to the outstanding amounts for the other units purchased by Pearl Properties in the total sum of S$34,327,494.50. Further announcement(s) will be made by Chip Eng Seng Corporation Ltd in relation to the Suit.

Submitted by Chia Lee Meng Raymond, Group Chief Executive Officer on 4 April 2012 to the SGX.

yjcai
04-04-12, 22:33
Capital control to stabilize exchange rate and interest rate. Bad news, price is here to stay, housing price is here to stay, basic is wrong. how come use fis to target ccr, ocr or rcr. Don't make sense at all. Hurhur wee hur?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impossible_trinity

Ricade
05-04-12, 02:49
Banks can independently request for higher mortgage requirements from benchmark rates IF they feel there is too much demand for mortgage products.

All abt demand and supply.. So even though benchmark rates / sibor stay the same until 2014, but the fixed component of the floating formula may change.

Eg: now in 2012 - floating rate is asking 3M sibor + 0.8
in 2013 - it could change to 3M Sibor + 1.5

value
05-04-12, 08:29
ECs is never a major contributing factor :)
Even you exclude it is a mere 9.7% and 20% respectively :):)
Thanks :) Clearly the recent policy changes (ABSD, pri sch balloting, FIS, no strata landed in condo) were targeted at foreigners/PRs, impact will be mainly on large quantum units as you pointed out. So SC with > $2 million budget will stand to benefit most. The rest of SC cannot afford but still feel shiok that SC interest being protected. Win-win for all?

ilovekopi
05-04-12, 09:16
Agree. Those who park their money passively is not contributing to the productivity of the country. And these rich people are the ones who are also willing to pay for property etc causing increasing prices.





Do you know the meaning of "PERMANENT RESIDENTS"?

Are you suggesting giving PR to people who do not live here permanently and no intention to live here, instead of people who live and work here and may set up family here? And the only criteria is money?

I will have more respect if you say we should tighten the criteria for Type B - people who contribute and pay taxed etc. Then I will agree. But to give PR to people who have no intention to stay here is meaningless. That's why it is taken away.

ilovekopi
05-04-12, 09:43
With globalization, I would say it is more competitive. Jobs cannot be stolen per say.

PRs do not always ask for lower pay unlike foreigners who need a pass to stay may settle for lower pay.
PRs do not form a very large number if you look at the recent population statistics as compared to foreigners.


Yet again, how can we fuel our job market and economy without this critical mass of population?

The entire situation in Singapore is a lot more complicated than just the problem of too many foreigners.






PR got backdoor and no backdoor PR? :doh:
Working-class PRs even worse, steal local citizens jobs, cause over-crowding on MRTs and buses and frequent breakdown, cause mass market properties to shoot up to sky, after earn enough sell their mass market properties and retire at cheap costs in their own native country. You think non-back-door PRs means they have intention of living here? Working-class non-back-door PRs contribute what? Contribute to Steal good jobs & pays of citizens! :simmering:

chiaberry
05-04-12, 09:49
Singaporeans should not sit about and moan about foreigners taking jobs away from the locals. In my experience, the locals tend to be fussy about the job conditions - hours worked/weekends off/amount of leave etc. However the foreigners are not so fussy and often don't mind working the unsocial hours for extra pay. So it is no wonder that in some cases, the employer might prefer a foreigner over a local worker. This is not pertaining only to blue collar jobs but also to jobs held by graduates.

ilovekopi
05-04-12, 09:53
35% of the population (about 1 out of 3) are tertiary graduates (Diploma or Degree).

Scary because we cannot have a society of white collars.
Who is filling the blue collar shoes?
But my parents would never ask me to study less hard or attain less than a degree?

... Noticed that this is straying from the original thread title. Sorry.

hyenergix
05-04-12, 10:00
Singaporeans should not sit about and moan about foreigners taking jobs away from the locals. In my experience, the locals tend to be fussy about the job conditions - hours worked/weekends off/amount of leave etc. However the foreigners are not so fussy and often don't mind working the unsocial hours for extra pay. So it is no wonder that in some cases, the employer might prefer a foreigner over a local worker. This is not pertaining only to blue collar jobs but also to jobs held by graduates.

The education level of the foreigners in regional countries are increasing. We have many new competitors for foreign investments - I can't recall any major ones in recent years except for a few at Jurong Island/Tuas. With the lack of major manufacturing and technology investments, it is hard to create a larger group of upper class to buy the luxurious apartments and GCBs. Hence the owners have to increasing depend on foreigners to buy their expensive properties at higher prices, which is not going to happen so easily given the current policies.

Wild Falcon
05-04-12, 10:01
Firstly, the rule does not prevent HNWI from investing in Singapore. It merely tightens the rule for PR, i.e. must contribute before you are eligible for PR => remove the opportunists who just "collect" PR for fun and as insurance by parking passive funds which is not productive. If foreigners want to speculate in property, they still can, just cannot use that to get a PR. Dunno why people so worried. There will be minimal impact on property prices, at most affecting those in the $2 million thereabouts range neither-here-nor-there of mid range-condo.

And while we like to complain, there are some jobs that Singaporeans don't like to do, e.g. car mechanic, electrician, luxury timepiece watch repairer, plumber etc. I mean everytime I go to a mechanic, he is likely to be Malaysian. Surely they contribute? If these Malaysians are not around, then where are we going to repair or zhng the car right? Singapore is really lacking in these blue collar workers. Those uncles who are in these trades are a dying breed. Every young chap wants to be a "banker", "lawyer", "F&B owner entrepreneur" nowadays. I do agree we don't need another "accountant" or "lawyer" or "analyst" from overseas because so many local business graduates every year. But we DO desperate need to take in the mechanics, plumber, electrician etc. So give them some credit and if they stay long enough and want to settle down in SG, its ok to give them PR right? My 2 cents.

teddybear
05-04-12, 10:07
How many citizens got >$2m budget to benefit from all the recent change in policies? Certainly not the majority of 90% citizens! :beats-me-man:

Why govt got no policies to really benefit the 85% of HDB dwellers to buy OCR properties cheap cheap? :p
Feel shiok got use mah? May be they think most citizens got Ah Q spirit enough already, don't have to really benefit them? Mmm, make >$2m properties cheaper, to benefit who? Definitely all those earning >$1m a year will benefit tremendously! Now they can buy cheap cheap their bungalows and luxury prime properties! :scared-1:


Thanks :) Clearly the recent policy changes (ABSD, pri sch balloting, FIS, no strata landed in condo) were targeted at foreigners/PRs, impact will be mainly on large quantum units as you pointed out. So SC with > $2 million budget will stand to benefit most. The rest of SC cannot afford but still feel shiok that SC interest being protected. Win-win for all?

gn108
05-04-12, 10:16
I'm inclined to agree with you.

But I reckon ABSD/restricting foreigners - more a 'populist' move. So some impact on property but more wayang for the voting public.

OCR is a bigger problem if things do go wrong (ie retrenchments, mortgages rates rise etc). More 'marginal wealthy' Singaporeans playing in that space. Current solution is the BTO/EC offerings. Resale HDB prices will be stabilized.


So, my conclusion is (as I have mentioned before):
1) Govt barking up wrong tree (or they wayang)? The CCR and foreigners purchase are negligible, but they yet they targeted foreigners with ABSD, now remove PR status, etc etc.

2) The most transactions 91.4% are properties <$2m, mainly in OCR. The OCR bubble is so big, mainly bought by Singapore citizens, but they did nothing! So much so for saying "wanting to cool the property bubble"! :doh:

Poloclub
05-04-12, 10:17
I am against the working class PRs. These are the ones stealing jobs from local citizens! :simmering:

We need more high-end rich PRs regardless of whether they set up business or not! The fact that they can spend more already good for local consumption economy!

Govt policy got problem again? Why like their policies make new launch private properties hit new record transactions and record prices? :banghead:


I am not sure what economic theory you have studied, but I am very interested to know how it is possible to grow an economy like Singapore without working class PR.

chiaberry
05-04-12, 10:19
But we DO desperate need to take in the mechanics, plumber, electrician etc. So give them some credit and if they stay long enough and want to settle down in SG, its ok to give them PR right? My 2 cents.

In some developed countries, those tradesmen can earn as much or even more than some white collar worker doing an office job.

As for awarding PR, I remember some years ago somebody whispered to me that the easiest profession to get PR in Australia was Chinese chef and especially pastry chef !

teddybear
05-04-12, 10:52
I disagree with what you said. Why jobs are not stolen by foreigners? As usual, there will be excuses to say jobs will go overseas if we don't let these employers employ foreigners. What bullshit!

Think, the restaurants in Singapore can go overseas and set up shops there to earn Singaporean's money?
Think, a vehicle service/repair company in Singapore can go overseas and set up shops there to earn Singaporean's money?
Think, banks in Singapore can go overseas and set up shops there to earn Singaporean's deposit and money?
Think, the retail shops in Singapore can go overseas and set up shops there to earn Singaporean's money?
Think, construction companies, repair service companies, retail shops, all can go overseas and set up shops there to compete for moneys of Singaporeans living in Singapore?

The answer is obvious: NO!
So, above is a load of bullshit. Obvious, there are some businesses which don't need to be located in Singapore, so govt only need to allow those businesses that can shift overseas to have privilege like employ foreigners.
All other businesses that can never shift overseas to setup shops must employ locals! This will help the citizens a lot!



With globalization, I would say it is more competitive. Jobs cannot be stolen per say.

PRs do not always ask for lower pay unlike foreigners who need a pass to stay may settle for lower pay.
PRs do not form a very large number if you look at the recent population statistics as compared to foreigners.


Yet again, how can we fuel our job market and economy without this critical mass of population?

The entire situation in Singapore is a lot more complicated than just the problem of too many foreigners.

teddybear
05-04-12, 10:54
We want rich PRs, not working class PRs to steal citizens jobs, overcrowd the MRTs, buses, public facilities etc!
But instead, the govt drive away rich PRs with purposely all the new policies and retain the working class PRs!


I am not sure what economic theory you have studied, but I am very interested to know how it is possible to grow an economy like Singapore without working class PR.

teddybear
05-04-12, 10:56
If HNWI invest in Singapore, they don't need a place to stay when they are in Singapore? Expect them to apply for visa and entry permit every time they come, e.g. once a month or even once every 2 weeks? :doh:

Jobs singaporeans don't want to do? that is because the employers tell singaporeans to get $1500 pm and work 12 hours a day! Pay $3000 pm and work only 8 hours see whether they want to do? :banghead:


Firstly, the rule does not prevent HNWI from investing in Singapore. It merely tightens the rule for PR, i.e. must contribute before you are eligible for PR => remove the opportunists who just "collect" PR for fun and as insurance by parking passive funds which is not productive. If foreigners want to speculate in property, they still can, just cannot use that to get a PR. Dunno why people so worried. There will be minimal impact on property prices, at most affecting those in the $2 million thereabouts range neither-here-nor-there of mid range-condo.

And while we like to complain, there are some jobs that Singaporeans don't like to do, e.g. car mechanic, electrician, luxury timepiece watch repairer, plumber etc. I mean everytime I go to a mechanic, he is likely to be Malaysian. Surely they contribute? If these Malaysians are not around, then where are we going to repair or zhng the car right? Singapore is really lacking in these blue collar workers. Those uncles who are in these trades are a dying breed. Every young chap wants to be a "banker", "lawyer", "F&B owner entrepreneur" nowadays. I do agree we don't need another "accountant" or "lawyer" or "analyst" from overseas because so many local business graduates every year. But we DO desperate need to take in the mechanics, plumber, electrician etc. So give them some credit and if they stay long enough and want to settle down in SG, its ok to give them PR right? My 2 cents.

Poloclub
05-04-12, 11:15
We want rich PRs, not working class PRs to steal citizens jobs, overcrowd the MRTs, buses, public facilities etc!
But instead, the govt drive away rich PRs with purposely all the new policies and retain the working class PRs!


I am not sure who you are referring to as WE because the majority of businesses in Singapore caters for the working class people and many companies from manufacturing and services industry requires the input and skills of working class people PRs.

So I am not sure how the Singapore economy can grow or even function if we replace the working class population with rich PR. Care to explain?

Condo Kaiser
05-04-12, 11:40
Both of you are right la...

Teddy is saying we should aim to increase the productivity and income level of blue collar jobs so more singaporean will be willing to take them. And of cos we need to increase our birth rate as well.

But I agree with you that Singapore being so small, we probably wont last very long if one day we chase away every single foreigners rich or poor...

Just that in pursuit of economic growth... the govt has taken the easy way out by simply importing work force... which has dire consequences such as over straining public tranport and services... And it is kind of like a viscious cycle... imported growth just inflate asset prices, without any real advancements in per capital income. (all you get is a bigger pie but with a lot more people sharing it). Taking away this imported growth is out of the question as we will sink into recession immediately, all they can do is moderate this importing and hope infrastructure can catch up asap to please the locals...

So both of you are correct:

we cannot do without the blue collar Prs.... but we need to moderrate their growth and focus more on value adding to the income growth of singaporeans.

we should not stop HNWI to invest and reside in singapore as they usaully pose the least amt of strain on infrastructure, especially if they do not normally reside in the country...

all the recent measures by the govt are obvious signs that they are bending backwards for populist agendas... but hey who are we to complaint? we voted them in.....

ilovekopi
05-04-12, 11:50
I can feel your frustration.
You may have misunderstood what I wrote.

What I mean is we Singaporeans are getting a little too cushy. Although a lot of us work very long hard hours, and we are getting frustrated with the competition from availability of foreign employment and PRs.

Foreigners and PRs from less developed countries are hungry for better life.

Singaporeans are expecting Govt to create policies so that we can have cheap good house and good jobs. Govt can have policies that favor Singaporeans, but we still have to remain competitive.

And now the Govt is trying to channel Rich people into the Investor Scheme to get PR. So that they will more likely have a business here, more productive and possibly settle here (contribute to our economy).


From now onwards, it is a global playing field.





I disagree with what you said. Why jobs are not stolen by foreigners? As usual, there will be excuses to say jobs will go overseas if we don't let these employers employ foreigners. What bullshit!

Think, the restaurants in Singapore can go overseas and set up shops there to earn Singaporean's money?
Think, a vehicle service/repair company in Singapore can go overseas and set up shops there to earn Singaporean's money?
Think, banks in Singapore can go overseas and set up shops there to earn Singaporean's deposit and money?
Think, the retail shops in Singapore can go overseas and set up shops there to earn Singaporean's money?
Think, construction companies, repair service companies, retail shops, all can go overseas and set up shops there to compete for moneys of Singaporeans living in Singapore?

The answer is obvious: NO!
So, above is a load of bullshit. Obvious, there are some businesses which don't need to be located in Singapore, so govt only need to allow those businesses that can shift overseas to have privilege like employ foreigners.
All other businesses that can never shift overseas to setup shops must employ locals! This will help the citizens a lot!

ilovekopi
05-04-12, 11:56
Yes totally.
And yes they were voted by SG citizens.

Seriously, it is not easy to manage this country. No natural resource, fast advancing.

Also don't know if opposition can do a better job than this. they also say things with populist agenda.







Both of you are right la...

Teddy is saying we should aim to increase the productivity and income level of blue collar jobs so more singaporean will be willing to take them. And of cos we need to increase our birth rate as well.

But I agree with you that Singapore being so small, we probably wont last very long if one day we chase away every single foreigners rich or poor...

Just that in pursuit of economic growth... the govt has taken the easy way out by simply importing work force... which has dire consequences such as over straining public tranport and services... And it is kind of like a viscious cycle... imported growth just inflate asset prices, without any real advancements in per capital income. (all you get is a bigger pie but with a lot more people sharing it). Taking away this imported growth is out of the question as we will sink into recession immediately, all they can do is moderate this importing and hope infrastructure can catch up asap to please the locals...

So both of you are correct:

we cannot do without the blue collar Prs.... but we need to moderrate their growth and focus more on value adding to the income growth of singaporeans.

we should not stop HNWI to invest and reside in singapore as they usaully pose the least amt of strain on infrastructure, especially if they do not normally reside in the country...

all the recent measures by the govt are obvious signs that they are bending backwards for populist agendas... but hey who are we to complaint? we voted them in.....

Ringo33
05-04-12, 12:03
I recently read an article about a survey on HNWI in Singapore. Apparently majority of the HNWI they surveyed are bearish about the Singapore property market. perhaps that explain why CCR properties prices are coming down.

Ringo33
05-04-12, 12:05
I recently read an article about a survey on HNWI in Singapore. Apparently majority of the HNWI they surveyed are bearish about the Singapore property market. perhaps that explain why CCR properties prices are coming down.

august
05-04-12, 13:36
I am not sure what economic theory you have studied, but I am very interested to know how it is possible to grow an economy like Singapore without working class PR.

a worker is just worker be it local or a foreigner. Just bcos a foreigner is working does not mean he/she is entitled to s'pore PR.

Ringo33
05-04-12, 14:20
a worker is just worker be it local or a foreigner. Just bcos a foreigner is working does not mean he/she is entitled to s'pore PR.


When EDB lay down the red carpet to attract those big high tech and pharmaceutical giants into Singapore do you think Singapore will have enough talent pools to support these industry?Or take Casino for example. Do you think it is possible set up and run 2 big casino operations, hotels and mega themepark without workclass PR?

I think the government message is clear, A HNWI is just a HNWI, be it local or foreigners. Just because HNWI have money, that doesnt mean he is entitled to Singapore PR or above the law.

august
05-04-12, 14:43
When EDB lay down the red carpet to attract those big high tech and pharmaceutical giants into Singapore do you think Singapore will have enough talent pools to support these industry?Or take Casino for example. Do you think it is possible set up and run 2 big casino operations, hotels and mega themepark without workclass PR?

I think the government message is clear, A HNWI is just a HNWI, be it local or foreigners. Just because HNWI have money, that doesnt mean he is entitled to Singapore PR or above the law.

Why must it be 'workclass PR'? Why cannot be just 'workclass' or 'workers'?

your implied linkage of 'PR' being the word 'workclass' suggests the two are mutually inclusive when it is not the case.

Ringo33
05-04-12, 14:59
Why must it be 'workclass PR'? Why cannot be just 'workclass' or 'workers'?

your implied linkage of 'PR' being the word 'workclass' suggests the two are mutually inclusive when it is not the case.


It should be working class PR.

The reason why we need PR to support such massive investment is because Singapore doesnt have sufficient people with the right set of skills and talent to support the industry. And Casino and Theme Park are good examples.

Ringo33
05-04-12, 15:08
For the benefit of everyone here, I shall post some highly classified data hehe :)

Take the big 5 countries for example[inclusive singapore], the percentage of yellow zone (>2mil) vs all purchases in big 5 is JUST MERELY 8.6%

Even if we take purchases > 1.5m vs all purchases in big 5, it is just a HUMBLE 17.9%

Not to bash the TS title about "Luxury + GCB is the End", but question is: If the gov is ceasing FIS as a form of property price control, are they really targeting these 17.9% group or the 82.1% opposition?

We all know for sure firesales for luxury are still restricted to mainly large quantum units [if you see many many firesales CCR within 1.5mil region, please tell me :)]

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5114/6898282778_1dcd7c6db7_b.jpg

I read in today's BT that FIS are very popular among the PRCs, so I am guessing that the number of PRCs buyer going forward should decline.

august
05-04-12, 15:37
It should be working class PR.

The reason why we need PR to support such massive investment is because Singapore doesnt have sufficient people with the right set of skills and talent to support the industry. And Casino and Theme Park are good examples.
spore may need foreign workers. however giving PR to these workers is an entirely separate issue altogether. no linkage between the two. are u a foreigner? u sound like u dont understand any of whats been said.

Ringo33
05-04-12, 16:31
spore may need foreign workers. however giving PR to these workers is an entirely separate issue altogether. no linkage between the two. are u a foreigner? u sound like u dont understand any of whats been said.

Please do not paraphrase. No one is talking about giving PR to cheap unskilled foreign workers. We are talking about working class professional PR.

august
05-04-12, 17:47
Please do not paraphrase. No one is talking about giving PR to cheap unskilled foreign workers. We are talking about working class professional PR.

I refer u to your earlier post and quote "Do you think it is possible set up and run 2 big casino operations, hotels and mega themepark without workclass PR?". No paraphrase here.

What u have written suggests foreign workers shld necessarily be PRs, or given PR, when it is not the case.

PR status of foreigners working in Spore has nothing to do with whether big casinos or mega themepark could be set up or run. And that is a fact.

dont mean to nitpick but perhaps u shld be clearer in your writing.

Ringo33
05-04-12, 18:35
I refer u to your earlier post and quote "Do you think it is possible set up and run 2 big casino operations, hotels and mega themepark without workclass PR?". No paraphrase here.

What u have written suggests foreign workers shld necessarily be PRs, or given PR, when it is not the case.

PR status of foreigners working in Spore has nothing to do with whether big casinos or mega themepark could be set up or run. And that is a fact.

dont mean to nitpick but perhaps u shld be clearer in your writing.

again you are paraphrasing and twisting what i said just because I misspelled working class as workclass, which I have already admitted was a typo.

And how did you link workclass to foreign workers when all along we are talking about working class PR?