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peterng8
05-04-12, 09:06
http://www.todayonline.com/Hotnews/EDC120405-0000100/PAP-has-to-engage-a-lot-more,-says-Tharman



Undergraduates concerned about bread-and-butter issues
by Tan Weizhen
Bread-and-butter issues - jobs, the prices of property and car ownership - were also on the minds of the undergraduates at the ministerial forum.

Responding to a question on housing prices, Deputy Prime Minister Tharman Shanmugaratnam (picture) acknowledged that "we are not in a very happy part of the cycle ... because prices have risen faster than income in the last four years".

But Mr Tharman reiterated that, compared to other countries, Singapore has done more to intervene in the market. Apart from cooling measures, the Government is also ramping up the supply of Build-to-Order flats. "It takes a bit of time ... My advice to you is, wait a little bit," Mr Tharman told the undergraduates.

price
05-04-12, 09:15
http://www.todayonline.com/Hotnews/EDC120405-0000100/PAP-has-to-engage-a-lot-more,-says-Tharman



Undergraduates concerned about bread-and-butter issues
by Tan Weizhen
Bread-and-butter issues - jobs, the prices of property and car ownership - were also on the minds of the undergraduates at the ministerial forum.

Responding to a question on housing prices, Deputy Prime Minister Tharman Shanmugaratnam (picture) acknowledged that "we are not in a very happy part of the cycle ... because prices have risen faster than income in the last four years".

But Mr Tharman reiterated that, compared to other countries, Singapore has done more to intervene in the market. Apart from cooling measures, the Government is also ramping up the supply of Build-to-Order flats. "It takes a bit of time ... My advice to you is, wait a little bit," Mr Tharman told the undergraduates.


haha he told the undergraduates to wait. Not the public. Wait for BTO ma :D

peterng8
05-04-12, 09:18
read carefully sentence by sentence...is he really referring to BTO singularly?

eng81157
05-04-12, 09:18
clementi 5rm BTO going for at least 500k and more........bloody pricey.......

avo7007
05-04-12, 09:21
clementi 5rm BTO going for at least 500k and more........bloody pricey.......

As compared to Clementi resale HDB?

hyenergix
05-04-12, 09:36
Extracting a bit from this source:
http://www.todayonline.com/Hotnews/EDC120405-0000100/PAP-has-to-engage-a-lot-more,-says-Tharman

Bread-and-butter issues - jobs, the prices of property and car ownership - were also on the minds of the undergraduates at the ministerial forum.

Responding to a question on housing prices, Deputy Prime Minister Tharman Shanmugaratnam (picture) acknowledged that "we are not in a very happy part of the cycle ... because prices have risen faster than income in the last four years".

But Mr Tharman reiterated that, compared to other countries, Singapore has done more to intervene in the market. Apart from cooling measures, the Government is also ramping up the supply of Build-to-Order flats. "It takes a bit of time ... My advice to you is, wait a little bit," Mr Tharman told the undergraduates.



Another student expressed concern on the rising Certificate of Entitlement premiums, arguing that the high cost of car ownership has not alleviated the traffic situation.

Mr Tharman replied that the congestion will be "far worse if we didn't have COE and ERP". The challenge is to improve the public transport system over the long term, he added.

On concerns about competition with foreigners in the job market, Mr Tharman reiterated that "whether we have foreigners here with us or not, we are still competing with them" - many companies, including those in the finance, hospitality and manufacturing sectors, are competing on the global stage, he added.

In response to a question, Mr Tharman also spoke of the need to "treat blue-collar workers with respect". Raising the quality and productivity of such jobs will change people's perception, he added.

"We cannot just be a society of insurance agents, real estate agents and bankers and office workers," Mr Tharman said. AMANDA LEE

Here're my views:

There is no implication for the housing question in red text, the Minister simply means BTOs are now under launch and constructions and will be ready in a few years' time. With regards to the public transport issue in blue text, it means the government will be pumping in money (from tax payers) into the MRT and buses (despite being private companies). With regards to the foreign workers issue text in green, the question was deflected, showing the government will maintain the policy of importing foreign workers.

avo7007
05-04-12, 09:46
Here're my views:

There is no implication for the housing question in red text, the Minister simply means BTOs are now under launch and constructions and will be ready in a few years' time.

You might have missed the part when Tharman said: " Singapore approach is to keep leaning against the wind each time the property market heats up."

hyenergix
05-04-12, 09:48
You might have missed the part when Tharman said: " Singapore approach is to keep leaning against the wind each time the property market heats up."

Typical Minister's talk. He was just pacifying the crowd. 2005-2010 period was a glaring error.

eng81157
05-04-12, 09:50
As compared to Clementi resale HDB?

don't have transactions in the same vicinity but let's make do with what is available on HDB's website,

114 (javascript:showAmenities('114', 'Clementi St 13');) Clementi St 1306 to 10142.00
Model A-Maisonette1984$750,000.00Feb 2012114 (javascript:showAmenities('114', 'Clementi St 13');) Clementi St 1306 to 10142.00
Model A-Maisonette1984$750,000.00Feb 2012Clementi St 1306 to 10142.00
Model A-Maisonette1984$750,000.00Feb 2012Clementi St 1306 to 10142.00
Model A-Maisonette1984$750,000.00Feb 2012Mar 2012 119sqm $607,000 11-15storey Lease 1979

This translates to about $474.22/sqft. New BTO the cheapest unit is $433.07/sqft. Whether this is pricey or not, I leave it up to you

eng81157
05-04-12, 09:53
You might have missed the part when Tharman said: " Singapore approach is to keep leaning against the wind each time the property market heats up."

heh, i need a strong tongkat to keep leaning against the wind. :p

hyenergix
05-04-12, 09:54
don't have transactions in the same vicinity but let's make do with what is available on HDB's website,

114 (http://javascript<b></b>:showAmenities('114', 'Clementi St 13');) Clementi St 1306 to 10142.00
Model A-Maisonette1984$750,000.00Feb 2012114 (http://javascript<b></b>:showAmenities('114', 'Clementi St 13');) Clementi St 1306 to 10142.00
Model A-Maisonette1984$750,000.00Feb 2012Clementi St 1306 to 10142.00
Model A-Maisonette1984$750,000.00Feb 2012Clementi St 1306 to 10142.00
Model A-Maisonette1984$750,000.00Feb 2012Mar 2012 119sqm $607,000 11-15storey Lease 1979

This translates to about $474.22/sqft. New BTO the cheapest unit is $433.07/sqft. Whether this is pricey or not, I leave it up to you

Clementi BTOs are cheap. It is difficult to replicate Clementi in other places - proximity to the tertiary institutions, Jurong Gateway/Jurong Island and NUH. The empty plots there are almost exhausted. The potential to increase further is there.

eng81157
05-04-12, 09:59
Clementi BTOs are cheap. It is difficult to replicate Clementi in other places - proximity to the tertiary institutions, Jurong Gateway/Jurong Island and NUH. The empty plots there are almost exhausted. The potential to increase further is there.

pinnacle was definitely cheaper and there ain't lots of empty land too around duxton. rewinding the clock, i don't think starting pays of fresh graduates have increased at the same rate as that of BTOs'.

yaozong7
05-04-12, 10:01
You might have missed the part when Tharman said: " Singapore approach is to keep leaning against the wind each time the property market heats up."

Nobody asked Tharman if 5K units per quarter is a sign that the market is heating up? I believe there will be no additional cooling measures at least for 2Q'12.

Khaw's approach is to use his blog & ST to cool people's expectations (another article in ST on 'freebies' today). But if Sky Habitat becomes a mad rush situation, further cooling measures are likely.

hyenergix
05-04-12, 10:01
pinnacle was definitely cheaper and there ain't lots of empty land too around duxton. rewinding the clock, i don't think starting pays of fresh graduates have increased at the same rate as that of BTOs'.

It doesnt matter. There are many rich parents around.

eng81157
05-04-12, 10:04
It doesnt matter. There are many rich parents around.

i wouldn't want my kid to be saddled with a $1m loan just to purchase a HDB flat by the time she grows up.

peterng8
05-04-12, 10:10
Extracting a bit from this source:
http://www.todayonline.com/Hotnews/EDC120405-0000100/PAP-has-to-engage-a-lot-more,-says-Tharman

Bread-and-butter issues - jobs, the prices of property and car ownership - were also on the minds of the undergraduates at the ministerial forum.

Responding to a question on housing prices, Deputy Prime Minister Tharman Shanmugaratnam (picture) acknowledged that "we are not in a very happy part of the cycle ... because prices have risen faster than income in the last four years".

But Mr Tharman reiterated that, compared to other countries, Singapore has done more to intervene in the market. Apart from cooling measures, the Government is also ramping up the supply of Build-to-Order flats. "It takes a bit of time ... My advice to you is, wait a little bit," Mr Tharman told the undergraduates.



Another student expressed concern on the rising Certificate of Entitlement premiums, arguing that the high cost of car ownership has not alleviated the traffic situation.

Mr Tharman replied that the congestion will be "far worse if we didn't have COE and ERP". The challenge is to improve the public transport system over the long term, he added.

On concerns about competition with foreigners in the job market, Mr Tharman reiterated that "whether we have foreigners here with us or not, we are still competing with them" - many companies, including those in the finance, hospitality and manufacturing sectors, are competing on the global stage, he added.

In response to a question, Mr Tharman also spoke of the need to "treat blue-collar workers with respect". Raising the quality and productivity of such jobs will change people's perception, he added.

"We cannot just be a society of insurance agents, real estate agents and bankers and office workers," Mr Tharman said. AMANDA LEE

Here're my views:

There is no implication for the housing question in red text, the Minister simply means BTOs are now under launch and constructions and will be ready in a few years' time. With regards to the public transport issue in blue text, it means the government will be pumping in money (from tax payers) into the MRT and buses (despite being private companies). With regards to the foreign workers issue text in green, the question was deflected, showing the government will maintain the policy of importing foreign workers.

My major interpretation is as follows for the property part only(it is more extended than the view u hold):

1) If it is for BTO only, will not be mentioning CMs, are the cooling measures targetting only public housings? the list goes on...

2) Is the advise given to wait a bit is solely for the undergraduates(who majority need to save for buying property in a few years times) or is it for hinting the public now that are more relevant to current property climate and garmen will act on it?

TIme will tell :p :p

hyenergix
05-04-12, 10:11
i wouldn't want my kid to be saddled with a $1m loan just to purchase a HDB flat by the time she grows up.

$1m may not be much in 10-20 years' time.

eng81157
05-04-12, 10:14
$1m may not be much in 10-20 years' time.

you are assuming that pay packages will increase at the same rate as general inflation or property prices. based on track record over the last 10-15 years, i seriously doubt your scenario will hold true

hyenergix
05-04-12, 10:15
My major interpretation is as follows for the property part only(it is more extended than the view u hold):

1) If it is for BTO only, will not be mentioning CMs, are the cooling measures targetting only public housings? the list goes on...

2) Is the advise given to wait a bit is solely for the undergraduates(who majority need to save for buying property in a few years times) or is it for hinting the public now that are more relevant to current property climate and garmen will act on it?

TIme will tell :p :p

BTO prices are controlled by HDB, so much for the rhetoric about "unhappy" situation.

hyenergix
05-04-12, 10:17
you are assuming that pay packages will increase at the same rate as general inflation or property prices. based on track record over the last 10-15 years, i seriously doubt your scenario will hold true

I din mention about pay (your pay may be stagnant). It's just $1m may not buy you as much as now in 10-20 years' time.

eng81157
05-04-12, 10:18
My major interpretation is as follows for the property part only(it is more extended than the view u hold):

1) If it is for BTO only, will not be mentioning CMs, are the cooling measures targetting only public housings? the list goes on...

2) Is the advise given to wait a bit is solely for the undergraduates(who majority need to save for buying property in a few years times) or is it for hinting the public now that are more relevant to current property climate and garmen will act on it?

TIme will tell :p :p

and no one played up the fact that the last BTO exercise was 6 times over-subscribed, despite all the previous waves of launched BTOs. my colleague had been trying to get a unit since 2009 and despite meeting his MP, it's still NADA, hombres.

fclim
05-04-12, 10:21
"We cannot just be a society of insurance agents, real estate agents and bankers and office workers," Mr Tharman said. AMANDA LEE

I like this. This is a consumption world. You need engineers and builders to make things and maintain them. If you are smart, you should go into engineering where nobody is interested in now. Get a skill and be damned good at it. You will earn more than your counterparts in the future. The foreign talent tap will dry up eventually as regional economies prosper. With Myanmar's political situation improving, those ubiquitous Burmese technicians and engineers will stop coming. Some will go home too.

London, Australia and even China have shown that plumbers earn more than an office or sales worker.

price
05-04-12, 10:25
read carefully sentence by sentence...is he really referring to BTO singularly?
ok lor then u wait? :)

Lovelle
05-04-12, 10:27
this tharman adviced on waiting is against Ah gong advice on getting married and have baby early which means married, buy house and make babies earlier

eng81157
05-04-12, 10:28
I din mention about pay (your pay may be stagnant). It's just $1m may not buy you as much as now in 10-20 years' time.

$1m can't even get us much nowadays. suburban 3BR condos are already northwards of the mark. 5 years back, owning a $1m condo unit was a bloody big deal. now?

price
05-04-12, 10:28
i wouldn't want my kid to be saddled with a $1m loan just to purchase a HDB flat by the time she grows up.
No one is asking ur kid to pay 1mil for HDBs. if he cant afford, buy smaller ones. EAs and 5 room flats are not built for everyone. Govt dont owe u a right to own a big HDB flat.

price
05-04-12, 10:30
$1m can't even get us much nowadays. suburban 3BR condos are already northwards of the mark. 5 years back, owning a $1m condo unit was a bloody big deal. now?

If you can't afford, just move on. wait, or buy a smaller one. why are u complaining about something u aspire to afford? just go for something within ur means

hyenergix
05-04-12, 10:31
I like this. This is a consumption world. You need engineers and builders to make things and maintain them. If you are smart, you should go into engineering where nobody is interested in now. Get a skill and be damned good at it. You will earn more than your counterparts in the future. The foreign talent tap will dry up eventually as regional economies prosper. With Myanmar's political situation improving, those ubiquitous Burmese technicians and engineers will stop coming. Some will go home too.

London, Australia and even China have shown that plumbers earn more than an office or sales worker.

There are tons of engineers from regional countries who are willing to work harder and at a fraction of your pay. These guys leverage on the strong SGD and go back to relax after 20 years of hard work here. Locals can only LLST.

I recommend working for yourself in any field rather than for a boss, becauses the boss will hire you only at the lowest possible cost so that he can earn the biggest profit.

eng81157
05-04-12, 10:35
If you can't afford, just move on. wait, or buy a smaller one. why are u complaining about something u aspire to afford? just go for something within ur means

hello, we are talking about price increases of BTO in relation to Tharman's speech and you are giving free advice about purchasing a unit within means.

thanks but please keep your wisdom to yourself, as i doubt any seasoned investor needs them

eng81157
05-04-12, 10:36
this tharman adviced on waiting is against Ah gong advice on getting married and have baby early which means married, buy house and make babies earlier

can make babies without a house eh? :D

Leeds
05-04-12, 10:36
The Minister agreed that rising property price is higher than rising income couple with the lag in its building programme and thus resulted in today's problem. His advice "to wait a bit more" seems to suggest that the government is monitoring the situation and if prices do not moderate further, more actions will be taken.

Read carefully his advice given in conjunction with his earlier comments and the above seems to make sense.

price
05-04-12, 10:39
hello, we are talking about price increases of BTO in relation to Tharman's speech and you are giving free advice about purchasing a unit within means.

thanks but please keep your wisdom to yourself, as i doubt any seasoned investor needs them

I was just commenting on ur post about how u dont wanna see ur daughter having a 1m HDB debt. but was just my :2cents: if ur sucha seasoned investor, perhaps u should remind ur daughter when she intends to buy a 1mil HDB. then u wont have to worry. :D :cheers4:

fclim
05-04-12, 10:49
There are tons of engineers from regional countries who are willing to work harder and at a fraction of your pay. These guys leverage on the strong SGD and go back to relax after 20 years of hard work here. Locals can only LLST.

I recommend working for yourself in any field rather than for a boss, becauses the boss will hire you only at the lowest possible cost so that he can earn the biggest profit.

Nope. It is not true. Very difficult to get local graduate engineers willing to stay with you for at least 1 year these days. Starting pay $3,500 and up.

hyenergix
05-04-12, 10:52
Nope. It is not true. Very difficult to get local graduate engineers willing to stay with you for at least 1 year these days. Starting pay $3,500 and up.

I believe there is a problem with the interview and selection process, and the company culture.

radha08
05-04-12, 10:56
clementi 5rm BTO going for at least 500k and more........bloody pricey.......

marine parade 30 year old crappy 5rm 800k...:doh:

roly8
05-04-12, 11:05
no one gonna pay $3.5k for a fresh grad worker la..
:doh:

Rosegarden
05-04-12, 11:14
marine parade 30 year old crappy 5rm 800k...:doh:
Sea view, beach park, shopping centre, banks, food centre, 3 big super markets, wet market, child care centres, famous pri school, katong food places etc etc all these just a few steps away. there must be a reason why some are willing to pay the high price. Maybe with MRT announcement coming, it will reach $900k! :scared-4::scared-4:

disclaimer: just saying....I not lucky enough to be marine parade owner lah... so no vested interest.

chiaberry
05-04-12, 11:22
no one gonna pay $3.5k for a fresh grad worker la..
:doh:

You would be surprised what is the market pay these days.....even a fresh grad with generic science degree second class can easily get 2.5K.

PV Excit
05-04-12, 11:24
Just a thought, 10-20 years ago, undergrads starting pay around S$2500?

Now, give them S$3500, they complain very low. Yet expect prices (housing, cars, makan etc) to stay at levels of 10-20 years ago?

some undergards think they real big deal, deserve to get starting pay of S$5000 (yet know nothing real much in practice) and expect to start in condos once married... I know too many of them like that. expect work for 5 years then commend pay of S$8000 and they job hop every 1-2 years in order to do so?

I think many of them expect too much... It's not that they cant afford, they dont want to start with HDB, they want prime HDB or condos, that's why it's seem that they can't "afford" the ones they prefer...

frankly, I prefer GCB too, but too bad, I not that level... but can I complain to Govt that the prices of landed has risen too much cos it costed S$200k during my parents' time???

just my thoughts... :)

price
05-04-12, 11:25
no one gonna pay $3.5k for a fresh grad worker la..
:doh:

Depends on which industries. 5 digit starting pay is quite common these days.

Rosegarden
05-04-12, 11:27
I like this. This is a consumption world. You need engineers and builders to make things and maintain them. If you are smart, you should go into engineering where nobody is interested in now. Get a skill and be damned good at it. You will earn more than your counterparts in the future. The foreign talent tap will dry up eventually as regional economies prosper. With Myanmar's political situation improving, those ubiquitous Burmese technicians and engineers will stop coming. Some will go home too.

London, Australia and even China have shown that plumbers earn more than an office or sales worker.

Singapore's amazing speed of development is unlikely to be replicated in the 3rd world countries from where we are drawing cheap skilled workers. They are not going to see the dramatic improvement in living standards within 1-2 generations as Singaporean are accustomed to. So Singapore will continue to be an attractive and lucrative destination with low entry barrier.

Leeds
05-04-12, 11:27
marine parade 30 year old crappy 5rm 800k...:doh:
In psf wise, Marine Parade HDB is about $700 while nearby private LH condo such as the newer Mandarin Garden and Bayshore Park are about $900. Both have en bloc potential. Which one makes more sense to invest?

insigina
05-04-12, 11:28
Depends on which industries. 5 digit starting pay is quite common these days.

Not only in Singapore. A close relation of mine was recruiting in Shanghai 3-4 years back. Criteria was the person works in an MNC based in China. A candidate was found (early 30s) and an offer of SGD10,000 a month was made. The candidate rejected it.

Rosegarden
05-04-12, 11:29
GCB only $200k last time !!!:scared-4:

When was that?


Just a thought, 10-20 years ago, undergrads starting pay around S$2500?

Now, give them S$3500, they complain very low. Yet expect prices (housing, cars, makan etc) to stay at levels of 10-20 years ago?

some undergards think they real big deal, deserve to get starting pay of S$5000 (yet know nothing real much in practice) and expect to start in condos once married... I know too many of them like that. expect work for 5 years then commend pay of S$8000 and they job hop every 1-2 years in order to do so?

I think many of them expect too much... It's not that they cant afford, they dont want to start with HDB, they want prime HDB or condos, that's why it's seem that they can't "afford" the ones they prefer...

frankly, I prefer GCB too, but too bad, I not that level... but can I complain to Govt that the prices of landed has risen too much cos it costed S$200k during my parents' time???

just my thoughts... :)

hyenergix
05-04-12, 11:31
GCB only $200k last time !!!:scared-4:

When was that?

Dun be so surprised. It was when Raffles landed in Singapore. $200k was very expensive then :p

Rosegarden
05-04-12, 11:32
In psf wise, Marine Parade HDB is more about $700 while nearby private LH condo such as the newer Mandarin Garden and Bayshore Park are about $900. Both have en bloc potential. Which one makes more sense to invest?

The buyers look at quantum lah. i.e. even if they got lobang for a $5M GCB, cannot afford!

roly8
05-04-12, 11:33
Not only in Singapore. A close relation of mine was recruiting in Shanghai 3-4 years back. Criteria was the person works in an MNC based in China. A candidate was found (early 30s) and an offer of SGD10,000 a month was made. The candidate rejected it.

$10k per month is still not good enough??

:scared-3:

PV Excit
05-04-12, 11:34
GCB only $200k last time !!!:scared-4:

When was that?

No lei, I was referring to "landed" at $200k during my parent's time, say around more than 20 yrs agon... But point is can't expect prices to stay and salary to keep increasing, right?

Rosegarden
05-04-12, 11:37
no one gonna pay $3.5k for a fresh grad worker la..
:doh:

Met an ex-attachment student recently. Was told his starting pay last year $4500, which he considered so-so. A friend of his, as high as $9k. There is now a wide pay range even for fresh grad.

Rosegarden
05-04-12, 11:39
No lei, I was referring to "landed" at $200k during my parent's time, say around more than 20 yrs agon... But point is can't expect prices to stay and salary to keep increasing, right?

exactly right! Landed prices has gone to the moon especially in the last few years.

value
05-04-12, 11:40
marine parade 30 year old crappy 5rm 800k...:doh:
shunfu 1986 hudc maisonette sold for $1.17m :eek:

http://business.asiaone.com/Business/My%2BMoney/Property/Story/A1Story20120404-337805.html

buttercarp
05-04-12, 11:41
Not only in Singapore. A close relation of mine was recruiting in Shanghai 3-4 years back. Criteria was the person works in an MNC based in China. A candidate was found (early 30s) and an offer of SGD10,000 a month was made. The candidate rejected it.

$10k per month is still not good enough??

:scared-3:

Early 30's probably has young family, so unwilling to go abroad and uproot whole family, especially if wife earning a sizable income.
Can understand........$10k may not be so attractive afterall.

Rosegarden
05-04-12, 11:44
Dun be so surprised. It was when Raffles landed in Singapore. $200k was very expensive then :p

If wiki can be trusted, Raffles paid only $8000 per year for whole of Singapore!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stamford_Raffles

buttercarp
05-04-12, 11:45
shunfu 1986 hudc maisonette sold for $1.17m :eek:

http://business.asiaone.com/Business/My%2BMoney/Property/Story/A1Story20120404-337805.html

:scared-1:
Is HUDC subjected to SSD?

insigina
05-04-12, 11:45
Early 30's probably has young family, so unwilling to go abroad and uproot whole family, especially if wife earning a sizable income.
Can understand........$10k may not be so attractive afterall.

Not going abroad. The chinese national to be based in Shanghai.

fclim
05-04-12, 11:46
Singapore's amazing speed of development is unlikely to be replicated in the 3rd world countries from where we are drawing cheap skilled workers. They are not going to see the dramatic improvement in living standards within 1-2 generations as Singaporean are accustomed to. So Singapore will continue to be an attractive and lucrative destination with low entry barrier.

Nope. Not true. Drying up PLUS gahmen work permit/S pass restrictions imposed. Even maids are drying up, you know. It is not cheap anymore to hire foreign construction workers with the increase in levy and housing costs.

I won't be surprised if regional countries start imposing certain minimum wages and working conditions for their construction workers working in Singapore.

Sorry for digressing here..

value
05-04-12, 11:55
:scared-1:
Is HUDC subjected to SSD?
Not sure, but this hudc not privatised yet so maybe subjected to same rules as hdb resale

peterng8
05-04-12, 12:55
Nope. Not true. Drying up PLUS gahmen work permit/S pass restrictions imposed. Even maids are drying up, you know. It is not cheap anymore to hire foreign construction workers with the increase in levy and housing costs.

I won't be surprised if regional countries start imposing certain minimum wages and working conditions for their construction workers working in Singapore.

Sorry for digressing here..


sturcturing problem for those looking for jobs exists...u can just made a call and ask some govt agencies(eg caliberlink or some others) and u will be surprised to hear that still alot of singaporeans still cannot land themselves a job esp those older locals and older PMETs let alone high pay...2% jobless rate in Sg to some is still a myth..:)

peterng8
05-04-12, 13:02
The Minister agreed that rising property price is higher than rising income couple with the lag in its building programme and thus resulted in today's problem. His advice "to wait a bit more" seems to suggest that the government is monitoring the situation and if prices do not moderate further, more actions will be taken.

Read carefully his advice given in conjunction with his earlier comments and the above seems to make sense.

monitoring so closely like a hawk ready to swoop in...:p so it is up to individual level of risk taking as whether to stay sideline at this moment or cheong in ...esp resale is now "you jia wu si" :p

roly8
05-04-12, 13:03
Not sure, but this hudc not privatised yet so maybe subjected to same rules as hdb resale

what is the advantage for been privatized?
the land will go back to govt after 99yr meh

Rosegarden
05-04-12, 13:16
Nope. Not true. Drying up PLUS gahmen work permit/S pass restrictions imposed. Even maids are drying up, you know. It is not cheap anymore to hire foreign construction workers with the increase in levy and housing costs.

I won't be surprised if regional countries start imposing certain minimum wages and working conditions for their construction workers working in Singapore.

Sorry for digressing here..

Nah, not an accurate assessment of the situation. A tree does not a forest make.

NorthernStar
05-04-12, 13:31
The Minister agreed that rising property price is higher than rising income couple with the lag in its building programme and thus resulted in today's problem. His advice "to wait a bit more" seems to suggest that the government is monitoring the situation and if prices do not moderate further, more actions will be taken.

Read carefully his advice given in conjunction with his earlier comments and the above seems to make sense.

he has been pushing to raise the income ceiling of the local workers. Wait a bit more for the income to catch up.. :D

NorthernStar
05-04-12, 13:36
no one gonna pay $3.5k for a fresh grad worker la..
:doh:


http://www.salary.sg/2011/graduate-employment-survey-2010-published-2011/

price
05-04-12, 13:37
Met an ex-attachment student recently. Was told his starting pay last year $4500, which he considered so-so. A friend of his, as high as $9k. There is now a wide pay range even for fresh grad.

Interns as traders in deutsche bank are getting 9k-10k.

price
05-04-12, 13:38
:scared-1:
Is HUDC subjected to SSD?
after privatisation yes

price
05-04-12, 13:40
what is the advantage for been privatized?
the land will go back to govt after 99yr meh

Can En-Bloc . HDBs cant

eng81157
05-04-12, 13:43
what is the advantage for been privatized?
the land will go back to govt after 99yr meh

top up the lease and then go for en-bloc to huat ah!!!

yaozong7
05-04-12, 15:42
Interns as traders in deutsche bank are getting 9k-10k.

These are the exceptions lah. The hard truth is Singaporean's pay are damn miserable.

For example, a new OCR 3 bedder condo probably cost around $1m today. If you use propertyguru's affordability index (recently shot down by HDB), households need to earn monthly income of $16k to ensure their condo purchases are in the so-called "affordable range" for $1m condo (S$16k x 60 months = $960K).

How many of these households earn $16k? Not many, according to the latest statistics, which mean many purchases are in the so-called "unaffordable" range. I also note that HDB did not dare to directly attack the "affordability index".

teddybear
05-04-12, 15:52
Rubbish lah, the so called affordability index based on income x 60 months. That one only designed for US where income tax is 40% of income, interest rate is much higher than Singapore by 2x, and costs of living for food, engage a helper, etc are higher.

If you repeg US income tax, interest rate etc to SG, then somebody who earns $16k pm can easily afford $16k x 200 mths = $3.2m property easily. :cheers1:

And we have not factored in the fact that US is so big, their properties got little appreciation potential and their people don't believe in property investment, only buy for own stay as a write-off expenditure..... :beats-me-man:


These are the exceptions lah. The hard truth is Singaporean's pay are damn miserable.

For example, a new OCR 3 bedder condo probably cost around $1m today. If you use propertyguru's affordability index (recently shot down by HDB), households need to earn monthly income of $16k to ensure their condo purchases are in the so-called "affordable range" for $1m condo (S$16k x 60 months = $960K).

How many of these households earn $16k? Not many, according to the latest statistics, which mean many purchases are in the so-called "unaffordable" range. I also note that HDB did not dare to directly attack the "affordability index".

roly8
05-04-12, 15:57
Can En-Bloc . HDBs cant

ahh...

so, it sort of become a 99yr condo..:D

radha08
05-04-12, 16:03
I like this. This is a consumption world. You need engineers and builders to make things and maintain them. If you are smart, you should go into engineering where nobody is interested in now. Get a skill and be damned good at it. You will earn more than your counterparts in the future. The foreign talent tap will dry up eventually as regional economies prosper. With Myanmar's political situation improving, those ubiquitous Burmese technicians and engineers will stop coming. Some will go home too.

London, Australia and even China have shown that plumbers earn more than an office or sales worker.

thank you for seeing engineers up..i am one of them...:D

PV Excit
05-04-12, 16:07
These are the exceptions lah. The hard truth is Singaporean's pay are damn miserable.

For example, a new OCR 3 bedder condo probably cost around $1m today. If you use propertyguru's affordability index (recently shot down by HDB), households need to earn monthly income of $16k to ensure their condo purchases are in the so-called "affordable range" for $1m condo (S$16k x 60 months = $960K).

How many of these households earn $16k? Not many, according to the latest statistics, which mean many purchases are in the so-called "unaffordable" range. I also note that HDB did not dare to directly attack the "affordability index".

If cannot afford, then should not buy, right? Ya, agree not a majority earning 16K a month to own a million condo... that's why private properties are meant for the top 20-30%. Those who start with "normal" household income of 5-6k a monthly should start with HDB first. Then slowly as their salary grows, then consider to upgrade, rather to keep aiming so hard... That's why the cap of HDB flats are for those under 10k monthly income....

But that said, I do agree that the society should help out those really poor families with more subsidised flats...

yaozong7
05-04-12, 16:17
Rubbish lah, the so called affordability index based on income x 60 months. That one only designed for US where income tax is 40% of income, interest rate is much higher than Singapore by 2x, and costs of living for food, engage a helper, etc are higher.

If you repeg US income tax, interest rate etc to SG, then somebody who earns $16k pm can easily afford $16k x 200 mths = $3.2m property easily. :cheers1:

And we have not factored in the fact that US is so big, their properties got little appreciation potential and their people don't believe in property investment, only buy for own stay as a write-off expenditure..... :beats-me-man:

Hahaha, $16k can afford $3m property??? I assume 20% cash downpayment hor for FT or 1st timer.

Monthly repayment is $8k leh at current interest rate or 50% of income, for a 30 yr loan. Will banks lend? Maybe they will, but I not comfortable with 50% income as mthly repayment......I think banks will think the same too. haha

eng81157
05-04-12, 16:30
Hahaha, $16k can afford $3m property??? I assume 20% cash downpayment hor for FT or 1st timer.

Monthly repayment is $8k leh at current interest rate or 50% of income, for a 30 yr loan. Will banks lend? Maybe they will, but I not comfortable with 50% income as mthly repayment......I think banks will think the same too. haha

i can make do with $8k a month, with lots of spare change :D

fclim
05-04-12, 16:34
These are the exceptions lah. The hard truth is Singaporean's pay are damn miserable.

For example, a new OCR 3 bedder condo probably cost around $1m today. If you use propertyguru's affordability index (recently shot down by HDB), households need to earn monthly income of $16k to ensure their condo purchases are in the so-called "affordable range" for $1m condo (S$16k x 60 months = $960K).

How many of these households earn $16k? Not many, according to the latest statistics, which mean many purchases are in the so-called "unaffordable" range. I also note that HDB did not dare to directly attack the "affordability index".

I cannot afford the $30M GCB because my pay is only $1M a year. Ya man, my pay is damn miserable.:D

teddybear
05-04-12, 16:35
This is good for people who don't invest in other things and their property is a good form of investment by itself.
Imagine you have $16k income, you are forced to save $8k at least in housing instalment, you still have $8k and most likely unless you eat in restaurant everyday and drive branded cars, you won't spend $8k a month right? Out that of that $8k, you probably spend $6k and save another $2k per month spare cash.


Hahaha, $16k can afford $3m property??? I assume 20% cash downpayment hor for FT or 1st timer.

Monthly repayment is $8k leh at current interest rate or 50% of income, for a 30 yr loan. Will banks lend? Maybe they will, but I not comfortable with 50% income as mthly repayment......I think banks will think the same too. haha

Ringo33
05-04-12, 16:40
Rubbish lah, the so called affordability index based on income x 60 months. That one only designed for US where income tax is 40% of income, interest rate is much higher than Singapore by 2x, and costs of living for food, engage a helper, etc are higher.

If you repeg US income tax, interest rate etc to SG, then somebody who earns $16k pm can easily afford $16k x 200 mths = $3.2m property easily. :cheers1:

And we have not factored in the fact that US is so big, their properties got little appreciation potential and their people don't believe in property investment, only buy for own stay as a write-off expenditure..... :beats-me-man:

actually cost of food and transportation is cheaper in USA than in Singapore. With COE at $62K you can buy a S-Class in USA liao.
Also need to consider that USA land are freehold Singapore most a leasehold.

teddybear
05-04-12, 16:46
In Singapore, you don't need a car, so is there a need for COE and S-Class? How can cost of transport be cheaper in US if you compare using public transport in Singapore vs driving in US?

How can cost of food be cheaper in US than our Singapore hawker centre serving $2.50 a plate of chicken rice? :p

Remember, US income tax is about 40% (vs SG average <10%).
US VAT can range from 12.5% - 25% (equivalent of SG GST now only 7%)!!!

Remember US mortgage rate easily more than twice of SG!

USA land freehold so what? So much land there that they just can't appreciate meaningfully in value except in a few major big and populous cities!

Add all the above up, isn't cost of living cheaper in Singapore? No? Please provide hard facts then...... :p


actually cost of food and transportation is cheaper in USA than in Singapore. With COE at $62K you can buy a S-Class in USA liao.
Also need to consider that USA land are freehold Singapore most a leasehold.

Ringo33
05-04-12, 16:47
This is good for people who don't invest in other things and their property is a good form of investment by itself.
Imagine you have $16k income, you are forced to save $8k at least in housing instalment, you still have $8k and most likely unless you eat in restaurant everyday and drive branded cars, you won't spend $8k a month right? Out that of that $8k, you probably spend $6k and save another $2k per month spare cash.

one should only spend around 30% of their household income on housing,, 30% saving. Anything above that will be overstretched.

teddybear
05-04-12, 16:50
See your sentence in red? You already said "spend 30% ... on housing". So your mentality is wrong. Actually money put into housing is not "spent", they are saved and invested! The property value will grow!
Most important thing is for people to spend less and save more, so earn $16k, spend $6k, the rest $10k saved and invested, good ratio!


one should only spend around 30% of their household income on housing,, 30% saving. Anything above that will be overstretched.


This is good for people who don't invest in other things and their property is a good form of investment by itself.
Imagine you have $16k income, you are forced to save $8k at least in housing instalment, you still have $8k and most likely unless you eat in restaurant everyday and drive branded cars, you won't spend $8k a month right? Out that of that $8k, you probably spend $6k and save another $2k per month spare cash.

price
05-04-12, 16:52
ahh...

so, it sort of become a 99yr condo..:D
heh it is :) management can run the estate themselves. build stuff etc.

Ringo33
05-04-12, 17:02
In Singapore, you don't need a car, so is there a need for COE and S-Class? How can cost of transport be cheaper in US if you compare using public transport in Singapore vs driving in US?

How can cost of food be cheaper in US than our Singapore hawker centre serving $2.50 a plate of chicken rice? :p

Remember, US income tax is about 40% (vs SG average <10%).
US VAT can range from 12.5% - 25% (equivalent of SG GST now only 7%)!!!

Remember US mortgage rate easily more than twice of SG!

USA land freehold so what? So much land there that they just can't appreciate meaningfully in value except in a few major big and populous cities!

Add all the above up, isn't cost of living cheaper in Singapore? No? Please provide hard facts then...... :p


You might not need a car because you are living alone, but I do have family and I need a car to bring my family around. And it will be foolish for a family to make $16K per month and no own a car. :doh:

If you want hard facts, you should go and read more about the most expensive cities in the world.

If you want to compare food price, go to walmart lah,

Ringo33
05-04-12, 17:06
See your sentence in red? You already said "spend 30% ... on housing". So your mentality is wrong. Actually money put into housing is not "spent", they are saved and invested! The property value will grow!
Most important thing is for people to spend less and save more, so earn $16k, spend $6k, the rest $10k saved and invested, good ratio!


The reason why people use 30% on housing is to protect themselves in the event something happen to the bread winner of the family. $8k per month on housing is hell lot of money to spend on housing for a FAMILY that makes $16K.

Of couse you could argue that they can survive on plain rice and not drive a car and comfortably afford a $3.2m property.

teddybear
05-04-12, 17:08
It is strange. The way you say it is like there are 1.1m households in Singapore, of which probably 900+k are families, and most of them cannot survive until now (>500k+ of household) because they have no car? :doh:

Foolish for a family with $16k pm to have no car? $6k expense can't afford a car? then the $6k spend on what? Eat in restaurants every day?

Compare hawker centre food to walmart? Walmart provide cooked food and a place for you to sit in there to eat? :beats-me-man:



You might not need a car because you are living alone, but I do have family and I need a car to bring my family around. And it will be foolish for a family to make $16K per month and no own a car. :doh:

If you want hard facts, you should go and read more about the most expensive cities in the world.

If you want to compare food price, go to walmart lah,

Eastboy
05-04-12, 17:22
My interpretation is that Tharman is asking the undergrads to go and find work and earn their own keep first before complaining about high costs of living....:doh:

roly8
05-04-12, 17:58
My interpretation is that Tharman is asking the undergrads to go and find work and earn their own keep first before complaining about high costs of living....:doh:
hahahah

:D

radha08
05-04-12, 18:19
My interpretation is that Tharman is asking the undergrads to go and find work and earn their own keep first before complaining about high costs of living....:doh:

my interpratation is tharman is thanking his lucky stars he not minister in charge of HOUSING...:D

Rosegarden
05-04-12, 18:29
my interpratation is tharman is thanking his lucky stars he not minister in charge of HOUSING...:D
My interpretation is, if people do this :doh: too much, they will become as shiny as him.

Ringo33
05-04-12, 18:50
It is strange. The way you say it is like there are 1.1m households in Singapore, of which probably 900+k are families, and most of them cannot survive until now (>500k+ of household) because they have no car? :doh:

Foolish for a family with $16k pm to have no car? $6k expense can't afford a car? then the $6k spend on what? Eat in restaurants every day?

Compare hawker centre food to walmart? Walmart provide cooked food and a place for you to sit in there to eat? :beats-me-man:
$6K expenses for the entire family is a lot?

I can sure break it down for you, but of course you have the right to say those are unnecessary expenses or not classified under expenses just to justify your argument that spending 50% of household income on mortgage is justifiable.

1) Maid = $700 per month
2) Utilities = $400 per month
3) Phone bill for family = $400 per month
4) Internet/Cable = $100 per month
5) Health insurance etc = $1200 per month
6) Transportation = $1800 per month
7) Grocery = $800 per month
8) Food/Entertainment = $1000 per month
9) Childcare = $600 per month

And this is excluding other expenses like travelling healthcare furniture or taking care of elderly parents etc.

It would also be nice if you could explain how setting aside $2K saving per month for a family with $14K expenses per month (including mortgage) is sufficient?

If you want to compare food price, one should compare the cost of grocery because that is the cheapest source of food not restaurant or hawker center.

teddybear
05-04-12, 20:14
If this is a real family expenses, then I must say well, the person deserves it. Really need to spend so much on those items (in red)?
After adjusting, I get $4610 pm expenses. Much less than my projected $6k pm! :cheers1:
And I already mention that the money put into property is not "spent", but saved. You insisted that it is "spent"? :doh:



$6K expenses for the entire family is a lot?

I can sure break it down for you, but of course you have the right to say those are unnecessary expenses or not classified under expenses just to justify your argument that spending 50% of household income on mortgage is justifiable.

1) Maid = $700 per month
2) Utilities = $400 per month <- Don't need so much! $250 already enough!
3) Phone bill for family = $400 per month <- Don't need so much! $100 already can do!
4) Internet/Cable = $100 per month <- Don't need so much! $60 already enough!
5) Health insurance etc = $1200 per month <- Don't need so much! You don't know what is called "buy term and invest the rest"?! $200 will do! For about $150 pm, I have >$2m life & TPD coverage! :banghead:
6) Transportation = $1800 per month <- Don't need so much! $1600 pm will do!
7) Grocery = $800 per month
8) Food/Entertainment = $1000 per month <- Don't need so much! $400 will do! (already grocery $800 pm still need $1000 pm on this?!)
9) Childcare = $600 per month

And this is excluding other expenses like travelling healthcare furniture or taking care of elderly parents etc.

It would also be nice if you could explain how setting aside $2K saving per month for a family with $14K expenses per month (including mortgage) is sufficient?

If you want to compare food price, one should compare the cost of grocery because that is the cheapest source of food not restaurant or hawker center.

Ringo33
05-04-12, 20:27
If this is a real family expenses, then I must say well, the person deserves it. Really need to spend so much on those items (in red)?
After adjusting, I get $4610 pm expenses. Much less than my projected $6k pm! :cheers1:
And I already mention that the money put into property is not "spent", but saved. You insisted that it is "spent"? :doh:
If you think that those highlighted in red are excessive, then what about living in a $3.2m apartment? Having said that, I have not even include maintenance fee insurance income tax property tax into that equation. Is this a classic case of penny smart pound foolish.

If the family have 2 kids for example, how is setting aside $2k per month in saving be sufficient to put those kids through university and yet have money for retirement.

if assuming the bread winner lost his job, how many month do you think it will take for them to wipe out their entire savings?

yowetan
05-04-12, 20:29
Is the household income for Singaporean families really that much?

I feel I am underachieving with 7k+ household income (both my wife and myself).

buttercarp
05-04-12, 20:39
Is the household income for Singaporean families really that much?

I feel I am underachieving with 7k+ household income (both my wife and myself).

If a family earns less than $4k per month the child can apply for bursary.

I suppose those who come to this forum and those who look to property as investments are likely to earn at least $12k(combined) or more per month.
This figure is based on the income ceiling of an EC.

In other words, I am implying that you should think of property as investment only if you have $12k combined income per month (income as in earned income and income from investment or help from parents).

hyenergix
05-04-12, 20:42
Is the household income for Singaporean families really that much?

I feel I am underachieving with 7k+ household income (both my wife and myself).

I thought you are doing quite well, at least average...

rymccondo77
05-04-12, 20:54
One of my close friends has 5 children (from secondary school to a toddler) and his total household income is about $6K to $7K. His wife works part time from home; no maid - so at least save on maid expenses.

And they are managing fine on such an income. Knowing how to control one's expenses is important.

yowetan
05-04-12, 20:55
I thought you are doing quite well, at least average...

I think I am doing below average since the general perception of household income to even afford a reasonable condo is to be of 12k/mth min.

yowetan
05-04-12, 20:56
One of my close friends has 5 children (from secondary school to a toddler) and his total household income is about $6K to $7K. His wife works part time from home; no maid - so at least save on maid expenses.

And they are managing fine on such an income. Knowing how to control one's expenses is important.

Your friend must be doing well to earn 6-7kSGD/mth.

How old is he then?

buttercarp
05-04-12, 20:57
One of my close friends has 5 children (from secondary school to a toddler) and his total household income is about $6K to $7K. His wife works part time from home; no maid - so at least save on maid expenses.

And they are managing fine on such an income. Knowing how to control one's expenses is important.

I know of someone who has 7 kids and income is $10k per month and they say they are coping well. They are staying with their parents in a landed property. The term coping well is relative. Depends on how you define it.

stiook
05-04-12, 21:48
I know of someone who has 7 kids and income is $10k per month and they say they are coping well. They are staying with their parents in a landed property. The term coping well is relative. Depends on how you define it.

Matter of choices and adjustment.... not eating out, cheaper or no holidays, kids wear hand-me-downs. Absolutely nothing wrong with that... as long as the family is healthy and happy...

teddybear
05-04-12, 22:01
You haven't included in your expenses at $7k but I already include in what I propose since without those only $4610 pm. :p
The one spending >$7k pm is the foolish one, I must say, as money spent cannot be recovered, whereas money invested in property can be recovered after selling the property, and good chance that with inflation running at >5%, the property can be sold at much higher value than bought, especially in small country like Singapore.



If you think that those highlighted in red are excessive, then what about living in a $3.2m apartment? Having said that, I have not even include maintenance fee insurance income tax property tax into that equation. Is this a classic case of penny smart pound foolish.

If the family have 2 kids for example, how is setting aside $2k per month in saving be sufficient to put those kids through university and yet have money for retirement.

if assuming the bread winner lost his job, how many month do you think it will take for them to wipe out their entire savings?

azeoprop
05-04-12, 22:04
Money and condos are not happiness. Greed is never ending, there is no end to comparison. :o

amk
05-04-12, 23:04
6k expense a month for a normal family of 4 ?? Something is not right. If u r doing this u should seriously check your expenses.

... I see the bulk of it come from 1800 car loan and 1000 dining entertaining expenses, is that so ?

roly8
05-04-12, 23:08
Money and condos are not happiness. Greed is never ending, there is no end to comparison. :o
yea...

:D:D:D

greed is evil.. :cheers2:

Ringo33
05-04-12, 23:40
You haven't included in your expenses at $7k but I already include in what I propose since without those only $4610 pm. :p
The one spending >$7k pm is the foolish one, I must say, as money spent cannot be recovered, whereas money invested in property can be recovered after selling the property, and good chance that with inflation running at >5%, the property can be sold at much higher value than bought, especially in small country like Singapore.

a) You have been trying to avoid answering my question on how setting aside $2K of saving per month is sufficient for a family with 2 kids is about to put their children through university education and having sufficient saving for retirement.

b) The question here is not about how much or what a family spend goes into servicing housing loan or expenses etc, but the monthly financial commitment of a family. The question I am asking you is that for a family with $14K of financial commitment per month, how long will it takes to completely wipe out their family savings if something happens to the breadwinner?

c) When the property is for own stay, what is the point of talking about making money etc. In fact the opportunity cost of living in a $3.2m apartment is probable around $10k per month. That is money that you could have made if you rent out the $3.2m apartment instead of living in it.

Perhaps a property psycho like yourself will think that is is justifiable to put 50% of household income on housing and then try to cut corners on all family expenses such as internet, mobile phone bills, holiday insurance etc so that you can live like a church mouse in a multimillion apartment, with no cash savings in the bank.

Ringo33
05-04-12, 23:50
6k expense a month for a normal family of 4 ?? Something is not right. If u r doing this u should seriously check your expenses.

... I see the bulk of it come from 1800 car loan and 1000 dining entertaining expenses, is that so ?

i am surprise that you didnt think that spending $8k or 50% of $16k household income on mortgage is not excessive. Or paying $3-4K of monthly interest to the bank is not excessive.

For a family of 4, $1800 per month on transportation is not excessive, with COE at $62k, month depreciation on the paper alone is already $500 per month not to mentioned cost of petrol, insurance, road tax, car servicing and to occasional taxi, MRT, bus ride etc.

$1000 dining for a family for 4 or 5 is not alot. If you can make $16K per month, I dont think it is excessive for family to spending $1000 on dining and entertainment per month.

$1000 / 4 = $250 per week. Excessive? try treating 4 or 5 friends on a night out and see what is your bill at the end of the night.

radha08
06-04-12, 00:09
sianzzzz my company just announced this year got no annual increment....:doh::doh::doh:...due to business outlook no good:ashamed1:

radha08
06-04-12, 00:10
i am surprise that you didnt think that spending $8k or 50% of $16k household income on mortgage is not excessive. Or paying $3-4K of monthly interest to the bank is not excessive.

For a family of 4, $1800 per month on transportation is not excessive, with COE at $62k, month depreciation on the paper alone is already $500 per month not to mentioned cost of petrol, insurance, road tax, car servicing and to occasional taxi, MRT, bus ride etc.

$1000 dining for a family for 4 or 5 is not alot. If you can make $16K per month, I dont think it is excessive for family to spending $1000 on dining and entertainment per month.

$1000 / 4 = $250 per week. Excessive? try treating 4 or 5 friends on a night out and see what is your bill at the end of the night.

try cooking/marketing yourself good stress reliever and money saver...u want recipes i can give you...:cheers1:

teddybear
06-04-12, 00:13
a) No money? Sell the house loh. $2k pm is $24k per year, save that for $10 years (assuming zero return) and that is already $240k. Monthly expenses $6k, that $240k can last you 40 months even if you have zero income, more than enough time for you to sell the house at a good price..... :p
Well you can argue that why need to wait 10 years? The answer is obvious: No fresh graduate can earn $16k pm! Somebody earning $16k pm would have already worked for at least 10 years to climb to that salary..... :tsk-tsk:

b) Assuming that the person live in 1 single $3.2m property and pay instalment, it is still better than to blow >$3k on unnecessary stuffs. With $240k savings & even assuming zero return, $8k pm instalment + $6k pm expenses means that $240k can last 17 months even if you ZERO income for 17 months.
Now imagine if you save $3k pm, compound at 3% p.a. over 30 years (same as 30 years mortgage loan), you would have saved $ 1.75m at the end of 30 years!

c) Property for own stay is the best form of investment! Many people live in them until enbloc and then can retire forever! Many people were forced to save lots of money because of the compulsory instalment! Many son and daughter are thanking their parents for leaving behind a valuable hard asset that have become valuable that they can monetize! Way Way better than to blow $3k pm away on unnecessary stuffs!

d) As for your statement: "Perhaps a property psycho like yourself will think that is is justifiable to put 50% of household income on housing and then try to cut corners on all family expenses such as internet, mobile phone bills, holiday insurance etc so that you can live like a church mouse in a multimillion apartment, with no cash savings in the bank",
I can only say that the $6k pm expenses already very good life already, how many people can afford to blow $6k pm on living expenses? According to SG Govt statistics, median household income is only $5k pm. Only 20% households earn >$12k pm. If you can blow $6k pm on living expenses, you are already in the top 20% household income bracket! I definitely won't feel living like a church mouse, I feel that I am in the cloud among the top 20% earners! :p


a) You have been trying to avoid answering my question on how setting aside $2K of saving per month is sufficient for a family with 2 kids is about to put their children through university education and having sufficient saving for retirement.

b) The question here is not about how much or what a family spend goes into servicing housing loan or expenses etc, but the monthly financial commitment of a family. The question I am asking you is that for a family with $14K of financial commitment per month, how long will it takes to completely wipe out their family savings if something happens to the breadwinner?

c) When the property is for own stay, what is the point of talking about making money etc. In fact the opportunity cost of living in a $3.2m apartment is probable around $10k per month. That is money that you could have made if you rent out the $3.2m apartment instead of living in it.

Perhaps a property psycho like yourself will think that is is justifiable to put 50% of household income on housing and then try to cut corners on all family expenses such as internet, mobile phone bills, holiday insurance etc so that you can live like a church mouse in a multimillion apartment, with no cash savings in the bank.

teddybear
06-04-12, 00:24
Let me Kay po here (except your first question):

2) Very simple, if a person knows proper financial planning, he should know that how much he should spend depends on how much he want to save every month. After that than he allocate to car. Say if he has $1600 pm only to spend on car, he won't spend more on car. If he can't afford so much money on a new car, go get a second hand car! $70k can get him a 3 years old Toyota Altis! PAR value $10k he can get back, so he only spend $60k for 7 years or $714 pm on car depreciation. Add in all those you mentioned, no more than $1500 pm! I allocate $1600 pm already more than enough on the safe side! :p

3) $1000 pm on dining and entertainment? Gosh! I can afford doesn't mean I will do that? What happiness can I derive from spending so much money on those? Simple fare in famous hawker centre stalls and coffee shops not good enough? Go Botanic Gardens better than what sort of entertainment you have that need to spend so much money? You & family go restaurants to abalone, shark fin, "buddha jump over the wall" every week? :scared-1:

4) My friends share the same value as me, eat at famous hawker centre stalls and coffee shops better than eating in restaurants. The latter mostly over-rated........ :eek:



i am surprise that you didnt think that spending $8k or 50% of $16k household income on mortgage is not excessive. Or paying $3-4K of monthly interest to the bank is not excessive.

For a family of 4, $1800 per month on transportation is not excessive, with COE at $62k, month depreciation on the paper alone is already $500 per month not to mentioned cost of petrol, insurance, road tax, car servicing and to occasional taxi, MRT, bus ride etc.

$1000 dining for a family for 4 or 5 is not alot. If you can make $16K per month, I dont think it is excessive for family to spending $1000 on dining and entertainment per month.

$1000 / 4 = $250 per week. Excessive? try treating 4 or 5 friends on a night out and see what is your bill at the end of the night.

Ringo33
06-04-12, 00:50
a) No money? Sell the house loh. $2k pm is $24k per year, save that for $10 years (assuming zero return) and that is already $240k. Monthly expenses $6k, that $240k can last you 40 months even if you have zero income, more than enough time for you to sell the house at a good price..... :p
Well you can argue that why need to wait 10 years? The answer is obvious: No fresh graduate can earn $16k pm! Somebody earning $16k pm would have already worked for at least 10 years to climb to that salary..... :tsk-tsk:
You seems to have forgotten that you still need to pay the $8k monthly mortgage even when you are out of job.

I am clueless how you could suddenly go off tangent to start talking about 10 years savings rate and fresh graduate salary in this discussion?



b) Assuming that the person live in 1 single $3.2m property and pay instalment, it is still better than to blow >$3k on unnecessary stuffs. With $240k savings & even assuming zero return, $8k pm instalment + $6k pm expenses means that $240k can last 17 months even if you ZERO income for 17 months.
Now imagine if you save $3k pm, compound at 3% p.a. over 30 years (same as 30 years mortgage loan), you would have saved $ 1.75m at the end of 30 years!
Care to explain what do you mean by >$3k of unnecessary stuffs? Do you have a family, a wife, or a children? Or are you single, still living with your parents?

So to strengthen your argument, you have conveniently include $240K of 10 years saving into the family for rainy day? perhaps I should also include cancer and other sickness to one of the family members so balance of the equation? :doh:



c) Property for own stay is the best form of investment! Many people live in them until enbloc and then can retire forever! Many people were forced to save lots of money because of the compulsory instalment! Many son and daughter are thanking their parents for leaving behind a valuable hard asset that have become valuable that they can monetize! Way Way better than to blow $3k pm away on unnecessary stuffs!

That is rubbish to me. To buy a $3.2m property on 80% loan for own stay is a luxury, is excessive, not a wise financial investment, especially for a family with household income of $16K. the opportunity cost of living in a $3.2m property is around $10K per month. (estimated rental return) and the month interest even at super low 1.5% is around $3-4K per month.

Before you start painting a beautiful picture of father passing down property to children etc, you should first understand that a property with 80% loan, is not an asset until it has been fully paid up. Like in this case if the bread winner lost his job, the family will be force for sell the home and that will be extremely tragic and shameful for a family.


d) As for your statement: "Perhaps a property psycho like yourself will think that is is justifiable to put 50% of household income on housing and then try to cut corners on all family expenses such as internet, mobile phone bills, holiday insurance etc so that you can live like a church mouse in a multimillion apartment, with no cash savings in the bank",
I can only say that the $6k pm expenses already very good life already, how many people can afford to blow $6k pm on living expenses? According to SG Govt statistics, median household income is only $5k pm. Only 20% households earn >$12k pm. If you can blow $6k pm on living expenses, you are already in the top 20% household income bracket! I definitely won't feel living like a church mouse, I feel that I am in the cloud among the top 20% earners! :p

$6K of household expenses is nothing compared to living in a $3.2m property that requires $8K in monthly mortgage payment or paying $4K interest every month

Ringo33
06-04-12, 01:04
Let me Kay po here (except your first question):

2) Very simple, if a person knows proper financial planning, he should know that how much he should spend depends on how much he want to save every month. After that than he allocate to car. Say if he has $1600 pm only to spend on car, he won't spend more on car. If he can't afford so much money on a new car, go get a second hand car! $70k can get him a 3 years old Toyota Altis! PAR value $10k he can get back, so he only spend $60k for 7 years or $714 pm on car depreciation. Add in all those you mentioned, no more than $1500 pm! I allocate $1600 pm already more than enough on the safe side! :p
For a household of 4 to 5, spending $1800 per month on transportation is not excessive unless you are expecting the entire family to be traveling in the same car at the same time every time.

As for your Toyota Altis, I am sure the family can easily afford to have 2 Altis if the reduce their monthly mortgage interest by 50%.

**penny smart pound foolish**



3) $1000 pm on dining and entertainment? Gosh! I can afford doesn't mean I will do that? What happiness can I derive from spending so much money on those? Simple fare in famous hawker centre stalls and coffee shops not good enough? Go Botanic Gardens better than what sort of entertainment you have that need to spend so much money? You & family go restaurants to abalone, shark fin, "buddha jump over the wall" every week? :scared-1:
This is where I am guessing that you are single and you dont have a family to support. $1000 per month for a family of 4 = $250 per person per month or $62.50 per week or $9.00 per day.

How much does it cost for a movie ticket? A meal in food court?


4) My friends share the same value as me, eat at famous hawker centre stalls and coffee shops better than eating in restaurants. The latter mostly over-rated........ :eek:
My friends share the same value as me too. If you dont have big feet, avoid wearing big shoe or you will trip over.

Poloclub
06-04-12, 01:26
Rubbish lah, the so called affordability index based on income x 60 months. That one only designed for US where income tax is 40% of income, interest rate is much higher than Singapore by 2x, and costs of living for food, engage a helper, etc are higher.

If you repeg US income tax, interest rate etc to SG, then somebody who earns $16k pm can easily afford $16k x 200 mths = $3.2m property easily. :cheers1:

Assuming 80% loan @ 1.8% interest over 30 years, the monthly mortgage for a $3.2m property will be around $9.2k per month.

If interest rate rise to 2.5%, monthly mortgage payment will be $10.1k per month.

rymccondo77
06-04-12, 02:21
Your friend must be doing well to earn 6-7kSGD/mth.

How old is he then?

He is in his early 40's.

yowetan
06-04-12, 08:03
He is in his early 40's.

I see. He must be working very hard then. May I know what is his profession?

I have problem going beyond 4k++ bracket, though I am in banking backend office operation.

KC76
06-04-12, 08:50
I see. He must be working very hard then. May I know what is his profession?

I have problem going beyond 4k++ bracket, though I am in banking backend office operation.

Switch to frontline or go to other banks. Hw old r u?

yowetan
06-04-12, 08:54
Switch to frontline or go to other banks. Hw old r u?

I am 35 year old this year. I have tried switching to frontline, but banks changed their mind after knowing I have kids to look after. They probably need someone who can committed to longer hours.

stiook
06-04-12, 08:57
Guys, it is just a matter of choice. Wanton noodles at Crystal Jade is $10 including service charge + GST... is it better than the $5 one from foodcourt... some say yes. Some say no.

We attach different value to different things...

it is not easy maintaining a household... if you have more kids and ageing parents, the amount could be more.

KC76
06-04-12, 08:58
I am 35 year old this year. I have tried switching to frontline, but banks changed their mind after knowing I have kids to look after. They probably need someone who can committed to longer hours.

I have friends doing quite well in backroom dealing with foreign mkts. Nt sure whats actual scope though but gotta work on shift. U can try that?

amk
06-04-12, 09:21
Ringo I *think* u really should think about what teddybear proposed, calmly, without being too agitated.
Assuming you are the one that earns 16k a month. What do you do ?
You spent 6k a month. With nice two cars. Restaurant every week. Night out with friends every week. etc.
These are supposedly regular expenses, not adhoc exceptional items, like holiday, etc. When that comes, one trip to Tokyo Disneyland should cost more than 10k for a family of 4. And other little toys like hifi etc.
Then you have left 8k, while budgeting out all these. Sure you are not going to invest all that 8k into pty. You need dash savings, etc. So you can only do liquid assets like shares etc.
At the end of day, what happened ? You have a high income, and yet you didn't manage to invest anything long term. Equity market has proven not to be long term friendly, you know that right ?
Pty for own stay is forced saving. Dun discount that.

Just give you an idea, a friend of mine has income more than 16k, but he has no 6k monthly expenses. For example his BMW cars are fully paid, no installment, just petrol cost. He does not go out with "friends" that often anymore after he has kids, and he eats mostly at home, no 1000 dining entertaining bill either. And insurance. He has a 2mil life cover and he pays 2k yearly only. His recurring "fixed" monthly expense is about 3 to 4k, the biggest component is 1k grocery, 1.6k kids school fees. very close to teddybear's figure.

Btw if you have 16k monthly, what happen to your bonus ? With this kind of income bonus should start at 50k, no ? That already serves up as cash buffer for you.

Dun feel offended. Just think about what you are doing now. 20yrs later, with your income of 16k salary , and yet u have not built up some hard assets, just some cash eroded by all inflations, are you happy with that ?

amk
06-04-12, 09:26
Btw if you are fine with it, there is nothing wrong about that. A choice of life style.

buttercarp
06-04-12, 10:10
6k expense a month for a normal family of 4 ?? Something is not right. If u r doing this u should seriously check your expenses.

... I see the bulk of it come from 1800 car loan and 1000 dining entertaining expenses, is that so ?

$6k for a family of four is considered average if you want to live comfortably.
You need to look at the nitty gritty details.
You need to factor in the holidays you take a year perhaps that will work out to about 1k per month. Parents allowance, insurance payouts, maid salary ...etc
It might be even more.

price
06-04-12, 11:16
he answer is obvious: No fresh graduate can earn $16k pm! Somebody earning $16k pm would have already worked for at least 10 years to climb to that salary..... :tsk-tsk:

U think too lowly of us fresh grads bro. :D :cheers5: 10 years is too long.

blackjack21trader
06-04-12, 11:22
U think too lowly of us fresh grads bro. :D :cheers5: 10 years is too long.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGxyJAhC1gU

(Note: Link will be up for only a day.)

Good Luck.

神龙股侠。
NIL SINE LABORE et AMOR!

phantom_opera
06-04-12, 11:36
朱门酒肉臭,路有冻死骨, 6k per month for four is dampsey lifestyle already

price
06-04-12, 11:36
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGxyJAhC1gU

(Note: Link will be up for only a day.)

Good Luck.

神龙股侠。
NIL SINE LABORE et AMOR!
:D :cheers5: they're talking about unemployment.

abcdefgh
06-04-12, 11:42
I love you Ringo33. Your arguments make sense, and are to the point..

blackjack21trader
06-04-12, 11:58
I love you Ringo33. Your arguments make sense, and are to the point..

i love u too, for loving ringo.:D

Ringo33
06-04-12, 12:01
Ringo I *think* u really should think about what teddybear proposed, calmly, without being too agitated.
Assuming you are the one that earns 16k a month. What do you do ?
You spent 6k a month. With nice two cars. Restaurant every week. Night out with friends every week. etc.
These are supposedly regular expenses, not adhoc exceptional items, like holiday, etc. When that comes, one trip to Tokyo Disneyland should cost more than 10k for a family of 4. And other little toys like hifi etc.
Then you have left 8k, while budgeting out all these. Sure you are not going to invest all that 8k into pty. You need dash savings, etc. So you can only do liquid assets like shares etc.
At the end of day, what happened ? You have a high income, and yet you didn't manage to invest anything long term. Equity market has proven not to be long term friendly, you know that right ?
Pty for own stay is forced saving. Dun discount that.

Just give you an idea, a friend of mine has income more than 16k, but he has no 6k monthly expenses. For example his BMW cars are fully paid, no installment, just petrol cost. He does not go out with "friends" that often anymore after he has kids, and he eats mostly at home, no 1000 dining entertaining bill either. And insurance. He has a 2mil life cover and he pays 2k yearly only. His recurring "fixed" monthly expense is about 3 to 4k, the biggest component is 1k grocery, 1.6k kids school fees. very close to teddybear's figure.

Btw if you have 16k monthly, what happen to your bonus ? With this kind of income bonus should start at 50k, no ? That already serves up as cash buffer for you.

Dun feel offended. Just think about what you are doing now. 20yrs later, with your income of 16k salary , and yet u have not built up some hard assets, just some cash eroded by all inflations, are you happy with that ?

Yes, Teddy is saying that a family with household income of $16K can EASILY afford a $3.2m property and it is justifiable to spend $8-9K on monthly mortgage, paying $4k in interest to the bank, set aside only $2K for savings. And not to forget drive a 2nd hand TOYOTA Altis.

I am not sure how your are able to dig out your friends income and details of his monthly expenses, but what I can share with you is that my family do spend around $6K expenses per month and that is nothing excessive. 1 car, 2 kids, 1 maid and parents. My kids endowment plan is around $1k per month, and that is excluding other insurance plan I have for myself and my wife.

$1000 monthly expenses on dining and entertainment bill for a FAMILY is not such a big deal, so please dont try to make a mountain out of a molehill.

yowetan
06-04-12, 12:07
Yes, Teddy is saying that a family with household income of $16K can EASILY afford a $3.2m property and it is justifiable to spend $8-9K on monthly mortgage, paying $4k in interest to the bank, set aside only $2K for savings. And not to forget drive a 2nd hand TOYOTA Altis.

I am not sure how your are able to dig out your friends income and details of his monthly expenses, but what I can share with you is that my family do spend around $6K expenses per month and that is nothing excessive. 1 car, 2 kids, 1 maid and parents. My kids endowment plan is around $1k per month, and that is excluding other insurance plan I have for myself and my wife.

$1000 monthly expenses on dining and entertainment bill for a FAMILY is not such a big deal, so please dont try to make a mountain out of a molehill.

Hi, could you share what's your household income?

stiook
06-04-12, 12:26
$6k for a family of four is considered average if you want to live comfortably.
You need to look at the nitty gritty details.
You need to factor in the holidays you take a year perhaps that will work out to about 1k per month. Parents allowance, insurance payouts, maid salary ...etc
It might be even more.

Totally agreed. The devil is in the details...

buttercarp
06-04-12, 13:48
Yes, Teddy is saying that a family with household income of $16K can EASILY afford a $3.2m property and it is justifiable to spend $8-9K on monthly mortgage, paying $4k in interest to the bank, set aside only $2K for savings. And not to forget drive a 2nd hand TOYOTA Altis.

I am not sure how your are able to dig out your friends income and details of his monthly expenses, but what I can share with you is that my family do spend around $6K expenses per month and that is nothing excessive. 1 car, 2 kids, 1 maid and parents. My kids endowment plan is around $1k per month, and that is excluding other insurance plan I have for myself and my wife.

$1000 monthly expenses on dining and entertainment bill for a FAMILY is not such a big deal, so please dont try to make a mountain out of a molehill.

Ringo 33 i agree with you.
I can't imagine if you have combined income of $16K you can easily afford a $3.2mil property..... i think it is paying thru your nose till it bleeds.

yowetan
06-04-12, 13:53
I am hoping to buy Pavilion Park at 2.3 million SGD, with household income of 7kSGD+++, with my parents rental of 2k++ pooled.

roly8
06-04-12, 13:56
I am hoping to buy Pavilion Park at 2.3 million SGD, with household income of 7kSGD+++, with my parents rental of 2k++ pooled.

make sure you have sufficient cash left for other needs...

wannabe
06-04-12, 14:53
Yes, Teddy is saying that a family with household income of $16K can EASILY afford a $3.2m property and it is justifiable to spend $8-9K on monthly mortgage, paying $4k in interest to the bank, set aside only $2K for savings. And not to forget drive a 2nd hand TOYOTA Altis.

I am not sure how your are able to dig out your friends income and details of his monthly expenses, but what I can share with you is that my family do spend around $6K expenses per month and that is nothing excessive. 1 car, 2 kids, 1 maid and parents. My kids endowment plan is around $1k per month, and that is excluding other insurance plan I have for myself and my wife.

$1000 monthly expenses on dining and entertainment bill for a FAMILY is not such a big deal, so please dont try to make a mountain out of a molehill.

i agree with Ringo. 16k household income is not enough
for a family of four to buy a 3.2m property.
i wont know how to live like that.
I'm single and i spent 2/3 of my salary each month.

price
06-04-12, 14:54
Yes, Teddy is saying that a family with household income of $16K can EASILY afford a $3.2m property and it is justifiable to spend $8-9K on monthly mortgage, paying $4k in interest to the bank, set aside only $2K for savings. And not to forget drive a 2nd hand TOYOTA Altis.

I am not sure how your are able to dig out your friends income and details of his monthly expenses, but what I can share with you is that my family do spend around $6K expenses per month and that is nothing excessive. 1 car, 2 kids, 1 maid and parents. My kids endowment plan is around $1k per month, and that is excluding other insurance plan I have for myself and my wife.

$1000 monthly expenses on dining and entertainment bill for a FAMILY is not such a big deal, so please dont try to make a mountain out of a molehill.

I love everything but the endowment plan for ur kids. :tsk-tsk::banghead:

yowetan
06-04-12, 14:55
make sure you have sufficient cash left for other needs...

do you reckon 7k+2k = 9k will be sufficient for me and my family to squeeze into Pavilion Park terrace? I hope to be buttercarp neighbour.

price
06-04-12, 15:08
do you reckon 7k+2k = 9k will be sufficient for me and my family to squeeze into Pavilion Park terrace? I hope to be buttercarp neighbour.

if 9k can buy 2.3m pavilion park, how much do u need to buy a GCB?

amk
06-04-12, 15:13
Ringo so ur 6k expense includes 1k endowment policy and 1.5k car installment ? These 2 should be treated differently. The endowment policy is an investment not an expense. The car loan should not be there at all, you should pay full in the 1st place. Without this 2, your expense already drops to 4k. And you still have your 1k dining out.

Btw endowment policy for kid is a total scam. Do ur research , drop it ASAP !

For 16k income, at least half should be invested. Teddybear's proposal may be radical, but the idea is correct. What do you invest ? How much a month ? If it's about 8k, you and Teddybear actually have no disagreement. Just a different choice of investment vehicle.

yowetan
06-04-12, 15:15
Ringo so ur 6k expense includes 1k endowment policy and 1.5k car installment ? These 2 should be treated differently. The endowment policy is an investment not an expense. The car loan should not be there at all, you should pay full in the 1st place. Without this 2, your expense already drops to 4k. And you still have your 1k dining out.

Btw endowment policy for kid is a total scam. Do ur research , drop it ASAP !

For 16k income, at least half should be invested. Teddybear's proposal maybe radical, but the idea is correct. What do you invest ? How much a month ? If it's about 8k, you and Teddybear actually have no disagreement. Just a different choice of investment vehicle.

Is there any instrument/vehicle that works idiot-proof like endowment policy that provide protection with net-zero return forced saving?

yowetan
06-04-12, 15:17
if 9k can buy 2.3m pavilion park, how much do u need to buy a GCB?

I am not greedy, as long I can afford the 2.3million SGD Pavilion Park landed I will be glad and grateful.

teddybear
06-04-12, 15:21
Tsk! Tsk! tsk! I gave an example of a real life case and this family is doing extremely well in just 3years after following what i had advised! Now I understand why some are rich and some are not given the same salary income. Serve them right that they can't own good property for life :tongue3:
Enough said..I don't earn anything by teaching you everything here. Those people can figure out, they will manage to build an impressive portfolio! Those can't, wish you good luck, happy n enjoy spending n life now. :rolleyes:

Ringo33
06-04-12, 15:22
I am hoping to buy Pavilion Park at 2.3 million SGD, with household income of 7kSGD+++, with my parents rental of 2k++ pooled.

when me and my wife got married, our household income was around 7-8K and we bought an EC that cost us $450k, even then we still need to stretch our loan to about 25 years in order to avoid using cash for mortgage payment. And every month when we look at the statement, we are always asking ourselves how long will it take for us to run down the principle to ZERO

For your case, my advise is to avoid using your parent's rental income to finance your mortgage because that rental income should be set aside to finance your parent's retirement and healthcare needs in case you or your siblings are financially incapable of handling their medical expenses. Do remember that when your parents are able, it is easy to have them around, when are sick and bedridden, you might have to hire a full time maid to take care of them and pay for their healthcare expenses.

if you are not the only child, then you also need to consider other complication after your parent's passing. What is in your parent's will, will you need to sell the flat and share among your other siblings?

General rule of thumb is not to use more than 30% of your income on housing, so for your case you should allocate no more that $2.5K on mortgage payment. When you buy an apartment you should also think of the opportunity cost of living there. For a $2.3m apartment, i think it should cost your around $7k a month, or $233 a night. ie based on the rental income you could have receive if you are not living there.

Dont want to sound like I am pouring cold water on your housing plan, but base on your household income of $7K, my advise is to get something that is around $1m.

buttercarp
06-04-12, 15:26
General rule of thumb is not to use more than 30% of your income on housing, so for your case you should allocate no more that $2.5K on mortgage payment. When you buy an apartment you should also think of the opportunity cost of living there. For a $2.3m apartment, i think it should cost your around $7k a month, or $233 a night. ie based on the rental income you could have receive if you are not living there.

Dont want to sound like I am pouring cold water on your housing plan, but base on your household income of $7K, my advise is to get something that is around $1m.

Words of wisdom!

yowetan
06-04-12, 15:27
when me and my wife got married, our household income was around 7-8K and we bought an EC that cost us $450k, even then we still need to stretch our loan to about 25 years in order to avoid using cash for mortgage payment. And every month when we look at the statement, we are always asking ourselves how long will it take for us to run down the principle to ZERO

For your case, my advise is to avoid using your parent's rental income to finance your mortgage because that rental income should be set aside to finance your parent's retirement and healthcare needs in case you or your siblings are financially incapable of handling their medical expenses. Do remember that when your parents are able, it is easy to have them around, when are sick and bedridden, you might have to hire a full time maid to take care of them and pay for their healthcare expenses.

if you are not the only child, then you also need to consider other complication after your parent's passing. What is in your parent's will, will you need to sell the flat and share among your other siblings?

General rule of thumb is not to use more than 30% of your income on housing, so for your case you should allocate no more that $2.5K on mortgage payment. When you buy an apartment you should also think of the opportunity cost of living there. For a $2.3m apartment, i think it should cost your around $7k a month, or $233 a night. ie based on the rental income you could have receive if you are not living there.

Dont want to sound like I am pouring cold water on your housing plan, but base on your household income of $7K, my advise is to get something that is around $1m.

Thanks for the advise. Currently I am still on 450k loan for my HDB flat. Do you think I still can scout for a 1million SGD property?

price
06-04-12, 15:28
Ringo so ur 6k expense includes 1k endowment policy and 1.5k car installment ? These 2 should be treated differently. The endowment policy is an investment not an expense. The car loan should not be there at all, you should pay full in the 1st place. Without this 2, your expense already drops to 4k. And you still have your 1k dining out.

Btw endowment policy for kid is a total scam. Do ur research , drop it ASAP !

For 16k income, at least half should be invested. Teddybear's proposal may be radical, but the idea is correct. What do you invest ? How much a month ? If it's about 8k, you and Teddybear actually have no disagreement. Just a different choice of investment vehicle.
same sentiments. i pity aunties and uncles who pay for endowment plan. lol :doh:

price
06-04-12, 15:34
Is there any instrument/vehicle that works idiot-proof like endowment policy that provide protection with net-zero return forced saving?

no one can help u if your lazy. not everything is idiot proof. even buying property is not idiot proof

Ringo33
06-04-12, 15:39
Ringo so ur 6k expense includes 1k endowment policy and 1.5k car installment ? These 2 should be treated differently. The endowment policy is an investment not an expense. The car loan should not be there at all, you should pay full in the 1st place. Without this 2, your expense already drops to 4k. And you still have your 1k dining out.

Btw endowment policy for kid is a total scam. Do ur research , drop it ASAP !

For 16k income, at least half should be invested. Teddybear's proposal may be radical, but the idea is correct. What do you invest ? How much a month ? If it's about 8k, you and Teddybear actually have no disagreement. Just a different choice of investment vehicle.


To be honest, I am really quite amazed by how you will choose to focus so much attention on the little stuffs like if i take up car loan or pay the car in full, and my endowment plan, but you fail to talk about the $4,000 worth of interest you need to pay to the bank just to live in a 3.2m property. This is interest my friend, not principle repayment. Are you doing all these because you are one of Teddy's flunkies?

The idea of investing is correct, ONLY IF you can afford it. To me, spending more than 50% of your monthly income pay for mortgage on a house for own stay is financial suicide. When you take up a mortgage, that is a long term legally binding financially commitment to the bank and the bank will not allow to you stop making monthly payment if you are out of job.

As for the endowment, that is an endowment plan for my kid's university education which will mature when they turn 18.

perhaps when you start your own family then you will learn to prioritize your financial commitment to your family and not the bank.

price
06-04-12, 15:46
To be honest, I am really quite amazed by how you will choose to focus so much attention on the little stuffs like if i take up car loan or pay the car in full, and my endowment plan, but you fail to talk about the $4,000 worth of interest you need to pay to the bank just to live in a 3.2m property. This is interest my friend, not principle repayment. Are you doing all these because you are one of Teddy's flunkies?

The idea of investing is correct, ONLY IF you can afford it. To me, spending more than 50% of your monthly income pay for mortgage on a house for own stay is financial suicide. When you take up a mortgage, that is a long term legally binding financially commitment to the bank and the bank will not allow to you stop making monthly payment if you are out of job.

As for the endowment, that is an endowment plan for my kid's university education which will mature when they turn 18.

perhaps when you start your own family then you will learn to prioritize your financial commitment to your family and not the bank.

with a 12k commitment p.a. endowment really aint the most ideal way to save up for children's university education. but then again, many of us lack time so i guess if ur lazy this is the simplest no brainer savings plan.

I do agree, 3.2m property is a poor investment if you were to ask me.

Why not split up the capital and purchase a few smaller units? even at 60% LTV u can get at least 2-3mms.

buttercarp
06-04-12, 15:47
Why not split up the capital and purchase a few smaller units? even at 60% LTV u can get at least 2-3mms.
Another wise man!:cheers4:

teddybear
06-04-12, 15:54
N how much do they cost in total?:p


with a 12k commitment p.a. endowment really aint the most ideal way to save up for children's university education. but then again, many of us lack time so i guess if ur lazy this is the simplest no brainer savings plan.

I do agree, 3.2m property is a poor investment if you were to ask me.

Why not split up the capital and purchase a few smaller units? even at 60% LTV u can get at least 2-3mms.

Ringo33
06-04-12, 15:59
with a 12k commitment p.a. endowment really aint the most ideal way to save up for children's university education. but then again, many of us lack time so i guess if ur lazy this is the simplest no brainer savings plan.

I do agree, 3.2m property is a poor investment if you were to ask me.

Why not split up the capital and purchase a few smaller units? even at 60% LTV u can get at least 2-3mms.

Yes it will make more investment sense to hold 2 x 1.6m properties instead of 1 x 3.2m property for own stay.

teddybear
06-04-12, 16:10
Since when did I say 3.2m must b in one property?

I just said 3.2M property.

Now, you ok with 3.2m property!:D

Wakakakakaa.......


Yes it will make more investment sense to hold 2 x 1.6m properties instead of 1 x 3.2m property for own stay.

phantom_opera
06-04-12, 16:12
Agree with amk ... endowment plan is a scam ... drop it immediately

kane
06-04-12, 16:16
Ringo so ur 6k expense includes 1k endowment policy and 1.5k car installment ? These 2 should be treated differently. The endowment policy is an investment not an expense. The car loan should not be there at all, you should pay full in the 1st place. Without this 2, your expense already drops to 4k. And you still have your 1k dining out.

Btw endowment policy for kid is a total scam. Do ur research , drop it ASAP !

For 16k income, at least half should be invested. Teddybear's proposal may be radical, but the idea is correct. What do you invest ? How much a month ? If it's about 8k, you and Teddybear actually have no disagreement. Just a different choice of investment vehicle.

i'm interested to here the maths/logic behind your conclusion on the endowment plan. i haven't gotten it for my kids and it was something that never really stuck in my head.

Ringo33
06-04-12, 16:22
Agree with amk ... endowment plan is a scam ... drop it immediately

the one I had for my kid is from GELife. Can share some more information on why its a scam?

http://www.greateasternlife.com/sg/en/products/save/endclassic.jsp

phantom_opera
06-04-12, 16:28
the one I had for my kid is from GELife. Can share some more information on why its a scam?

http://www.greateasternlife.com/sg/en/products/save/endclassic.jsp

With your family income of 16k ... all you need is a 5y renewable TERM plan about 1 million with probably 500k critical illness coverage ... other than those minor stuff like health / accident policies ... never never ask insurance co to invest for u ... it is very expensive and you are at their mercy

yowetan
06-04-12, 16:29
With your family income of 16k ... all you need is a 5y renewable TERM plan about 1 million with probably 500k critical illness coverage ... other than those minor stuff like health / accident policies ... never never ask insurance co to invest for u ... it is very expensive and you are at their mercy

How much would such a term policy cost then?

phantom_opera
06-04-12, 16:34
How much would such a term policy cost then?

Get a quote from your insurance agents loh ... how I know as it depends on age and whether you work for police or army or smoker or something... NTUC has LUV plan up to 200k for life/critical illness ... get that first if try to test test water

Ringo33
06-04-12, 16:36
With your family income of 16k ... all you need is a 5y renewable TERM plan about 1 million with probably 500k critical illness coverage ... other than those minor stuff like health / accident policies ... never never ask insurance co to invest for u ... it is very expensive and you are at their mercy


The purpose of this endowment is purely for my kid education only as I have other term plans that runs parallel to this. From my understanding the sum and bonus for the endowment plan are assured so at the end of 18 years, i will get back more that what I would have if I put them in FD or saving account. Is there something which I have not been told?

roly8
06-04-12, 16:43
The idea of investing is correct, ONLY IF you can afford it. To me, spending more than 50% of your monthly income pay for mortgage on a house for own stay is financial suicide. When you take up a mortgage, that is a long term legally binding financially commitment to the bank and the bank will not allow to you stop making monthly payment if you are out of job.


i agree with this point
hope those buying into punggol $1500-1600psf condo ...don't do this :scared-5::scared-5:

Douk
06-04-12, 17:04
In think a fully paid car should also contribute into monthly expense based on depreciation value.


Ringo I *think* u really should think about what teddybear proposed, calmly, without being too agitated.
Assuming you are the one that earns 16k a month. What do you do ?
You spent 6k a month. With nice two cars. Restaurant every week. Night out with friends every week. etc.
These are supposedly regular expenses, not adhoc exceptional items, like holiday, etc. When that comes, one trip to Tokyo Disneyland should cost more than 10k for a family of 4. And other little toys like hifi etc.
Then you have left 8k, while budgeting out all these. Sure you are not going to invest all that 8k into pty. You need dash savings, etc. So you can only do liquid assets like shares etc.
At the end of day, what happened ? You have a high income, and yet you didn't manage to invest anything long term. Equity market has proven not to be long term friendly, you know that right ?
Pty for own stay is forced saving. Dun discount that.

Just give you an idea, a friend of mine has income more than 16k, but he has no 6k monthly expenses. For example his BMW cars are fully paid, no installment, just petrol cost. He does not go out with "friends" that often anymore after he has kids, and he eats mostly at home, no 1000 dining entertaining bill either. And insurance. He has a 2mil life cover and he pays 2k yearly only. His recurring "fixed" monthly expense is about 3 to 4k, the biggest component is 1k grocery, 1.6k kids school fees. very close to teddybear's figure.

Btw if you have 16k monthly, what happen to your bonus ? With this kind of income bonus should start at 50k, no ? That already serves up as cash buffer for you.

Dun feel offended. Just think about what you are doing now. 20yrs later, with your income of 16k salary , and yet u have not built up some hard assets, just some cash eroded by all inflations, are you happy with that ?

amk
06-04-12, 17:45
Ringo calm down, just for one minute contemplate what are being discussed here.
You worry about 4k interest. You get that because your investment is leveraged. If your investment is not leveraged there is no interest to talk about. Mortgage is the cheapest leverage you can get, even at 60% LTV. That's why people like Teddybear strongly favors it. Because ppl do get rich by leveraging. ( btw at 60% LTV a 3.2m has installment abt 6k at today's rate)

If you are risk adverse, then you choose the investment with less or zero leverage. that's fine too. Remember here I say you should invest at least 8k with a 16k salary. if you already doing that, then there is no difference between you and Teddybear. Just preference over what investment to use. You all can debate on that.

Btw I pick about car installment because that is one single item most ppl are not doing it right. Car loan is one loan one should never take.

price
06-04-12, 17:55
agree with amk on this.

property investment comes leveraging. Just like how in FX u can choose to leverage too.

Be it 5 times of wat u have, (or 2.5 times if this is ur 2nd property loan) they are just different ways for investors to play with a bigger quantum investment. Indeed housing loan is the cheapest long term loan u can ever get in ur life.

As such, don't pay it off early.

Your strategy should be to
(i) borrow as much as possible
(ii) for as long as possible
(iii) pay it off as slowly as possible.

Be sure that you pay all other borrowings before paying down your home loan -- (since all other debt is more expensive).

but these are just guidelines and calculations done with statistics.

Based on the way you choose endowment to save up for ur children, i can tell that you are very timid when it comes to investments. If u bother to spend some more time to read up or learn, any form of investment beat getting urself tied down to an endowment plan in life.

Fixed D is never considered as an investment. Honestly, if u can lend me ur money for a fixed couple of years, I will be more than willing to pay u back 2% or more on it. There're so many ways out there to make back this interest or even double it.

Having said all these, like i mentioned in this forum before, many Singaporeans aunties and uncles feel so proud that they do not owe any housing loan. Good for you but really, it all depends on how old you are and thus how much u should leverage.

In the most basic accountings sense, how can a balance sheet be good without liabilities? if ur capital = ur assets ur not doing well in life.

price
06-04-12, 17:58
the one I had for my kid is from GELife. Can share some more information on why its a scam?

http://www.greateasternlife.com/sg/en/products/save/endclassic.jsp

We're just speaking in a value-for-money point of view. Endowment brings the least returns as an investment tool. I feel so painful when i see friends around me throw their monthly savings into insurance. What the other forumers say here are right. Never ever mix insurance with investments. Whats the point? u want guaranteed returns, u investment in other stuff with better returns. u want insurance, get a term or other forms of life packages they have for u. Not ILPs nor fund linked endowment policies or whatsoever they have these days.

samuelk
06-04-12, 18:04
There are tons of engineers from regional countries who are willing to work harder and at a fraction of your pay. These guys leverage on the strong SGD and go back to relax after 20 years of hard work here. Locals can only LLST.

I recommend working for yourself in any field rather than for a boss, becauses the boss will hire you only at the lowest possible cost so that he can earn the biggest profit.
Actually, not true. The market such as IT has been totally wipe out by India.

And the fact that the cost is no longer as "reasonbly " cost effective.

These days, IT engineer drive to work. They used to scrimp . There is also a new pattern apperaing, and that is that they come here to gain "practical" experice, and once they have that ground experience, they comment X2 as much back in India or they move to US and AU.

So have taken the route to use SG as a temporary site to spend time and then go take their MBA full time.

Sooner then later, you should see that the job will evaporate and move to India to so call "reduce" cost. Typical example is a european bank that starts with "B" and have move everything to India.

The days of been hardwaorking and be very good at what you are at is no longer true. Manufacturing for one has gone the way of the dodo birds.

The next step such as HR which is deem non relavent in todays contaxt has started to move to India.

I hazard a guess that IT will be next sunset industry.

So what does that leave SG with ?. U guess it, Insurance, Property agent , etc.

Ringo33
06-04-12, 18:08
Ringo calm down, just for one minute contemplate what are being discussed here.
You worry about 4k interest. You get that because your investment is leveraged. If your investment is not leveraged there is no interest to talk about. Mortgage is the cheapest leverage you can get, even at 60% LTV. That's why people like Teddybear strongly favors it. Because ppl do get rich by leveraging. ( btw at 60% LTV a 3.2m has installment abt 6k at today's rate)

If you are risk adverse, then you choose the investment with less or zero leverage. that's fine too. Remember here I say you should invest at least 8k with a 16k salary. if you already doing that, then there is no difference between you and Teddybear. Just preference over what investment to use. You all can debate on that.

Btw I pick about car installment because that is one single item most ppl are not doing it right. Car loan is one loan one should never take.

Like I said earlier, if you are leveraging to generate passive incomes from investment property that is fine. but to over leverage so that you can enjoy a 3.2m property, that to me is suicidal. Although both are leveraging, but they are leveraging for the different purpose.

Can you explain from a cash flow point of view, how are you going to get "rich" by taking up 80% loan on a 3.2m property for own stay?

Like someone already said, weather you take up car loan or not, car and the COE is a depreciating assets and you still need set aside money for replacement when the car reaches 10 years.

Poloclub
06-04-12, 18:17
agree with amk on this.

property investment comes leveraging. Just like how in FX u can choose to leverage too.

Be it 5 times of wat u have, (or 2.5 times if this is ur 2nd property loan) they are just different ways for investors to play with a bigger quantum investment. Indeed housing loan is the cheapest long term loan u can ever get in ur life.

As such, don't pay it off early.

Your strategy should be to
(i) borrow as much as possible
(ii) for as long as possible
(iii) pay it off as slowly as possible.

Be sure that you pay all other borrowings before paying down your home loan -- (since all other debt is more expensive).

but these are just guidelines and calculations done with statistics.

Based on the way you choose endowment to save up for ur children, i can tell that you are very timid when it comes to investments. If u bother to spend some more time to read up or learn, any form of investment beat getting urself tied down to an endowment plan in life.

Fixed D is never considered as an investment. Honestly, if u can lend me ur money for a fixed couple of years, I will be more than willing to pay u back 2% or more on it. There're so many ways out there to make back this interest or even double it.

Having said all these, like i mentioned in this forum before, many Singaporeans aunties and uncles feel so proud that they do not owe any housing loan. Good for you but really, it all depends on how old you are and thus how much u should leverage.

In the most basic accountings sense, how can a balance sheet be good without liabilities? if ur capital = ur assets ur not doing well in life.

leverage is fine, but i think a line needs to be drawn between family home and investment properties. I really cant see myself risking my family livelihood like this.

price
06-04-12, 18:18
The purpose of this endowment is purely for my kid education only as I have other term plans that runs parallel to this. From my understanding the sum and bonus for the endowment plan are assured so at the end of 18 years, i will get back more that what I would have if I put them in FD or saving account. Is there something which I have not been told?
Just did a simple quick search,

Even if u really want to go for endowment plans, GE is not that ideal with distribution costs at 14 months.

in case u do not know what that means, distribution costs are selling expenses paid to the insurance company and sales agent. It does not contribute to the insurance or investments which the policyholder purchases with the endowment policy.

Aviva, NTUC, HSBC or Manulife all have lowest distribution cost from 6-12months. Basically every dollar u are hoping to pay for ur children's education, ur basically paying for ur insurance agent's children so to speak. :D

if u need a whole life insurance, stick to aviva or ntuc (12 months distribution costs)

if u really want to get an ILP, again NTUC is the lowest average expense ratio followed by GE, prudential, UOB then HSBC.

DIY insurance is also called "unbundling". It means buying investments and insurance separately.

Insurance companies and agents usually steer you away from DIY and toward bundled insurance, which pays higher commissions. The 3 most popular bundled policies are

(i) Whole life,
(ii) Regular-premium endowment (including education policies) and
(iii) Regular-premium investment linked products (R-ILPs).

DIY has three advantages: It is transparent, cheap and flexible.

(i) Whole life and endowment policies DO NOT disclose which stocks, bonds and property the insurance company has purchased for you.

DIY invests in unit trust and ILPs - which tell where they have invested your money.

(ii) Whole life and endowment policies DO NOT disclose the returns the insurance company has earned on the stocks, bonds and property it has purchased on your behalf.

DIY invests in unit trust and ILPs - which reveal the fund's performance.

(iii) Whole life and endowment policies DO NOT disclose how much the insurance company is charging to manage your investment.

DIY invests in unit trust and ILPs - which reveal the management fee.

(iv) Whole life and endowment policies DO NOT disclose the timing of your investment. DIY invests in unit trust and ILPs, all of which tell if you bought low and sold high, thereby making a profit.

Not only that, if you did buy low and sell high, insurers take some of the profit and give it to less fortunate endowment and whole life policyholders. There is no way to know if you are on the giving or receiving end of this re-allocation. The practice is called "earnings smoothing".

(v) Whole life and endowment policies DO NOT disclose the riskiness of your investments. This makes it impossible to adjust your investments to your risk/return preferences.

Insurance companies take policyholder premiums and invest them in a single “life fund”. There, all policyholders share the same investments. It is a "one size fits all" approach. A fresh young graduate and an 80-year old retiree have no choice but to share exactly the same investments.



Savings from DIY are equal to the distribution costs charged by regular-premium endowment, ILP and whole life policies.

The distribution cost is the bid-offer spread. It is typically 5 per cent of your investment. Both regular premium ILPs and DIY charge it.

Average costs for Singapore insurers:

(i) Whole life: 19 months' premiums.
(ii) Regular-premium endowment (including education policies): 14 months' premiums.
(iii) Regular-premium investment linked products (R-ILPs): 15 months' premiums.

On average, it costs from one to two years' premiums to pay commissions to the agent and insurance company that sold you the policy. None of these payments go toward purchase of insurance and investments.

DIY is cheaper since it does not charge this distribution cost. It charges only the bid-offer spread of 2 to 5 per cent of your investment.

Whole life and endowment policies give a pre-set mix of insurance and investments. For example, a whole life policy might use your premium payments: (i) 20 % term insurance, (ii) 30 % stocks and (iii) 50 % bonds.

There is no way to change the allocation or even to know what it is since no insurance company discloses this information to its policyholders.

DIY is more flexible. It allows you to choose any allocation you prefer, such as: (i) 10 % term insurance, (ii) 30 % health insurance, (iii) 20 % cash payments on your home loan, (iv) 30 % stock funds and (v) 10 % bond funds. etc. etc. You can also change the allocation whenever and as often as you wish.

price
06-04-12, 18:21
leverage is fine, but i think a line needs to be drawn between family home and investment properties. I really cant see myself risking my family livelihood like this.

Yep, thats why i always dont understand why people treat their first own stay home as investment tools. :tsk-tsk: :tsk-tsk: :tsk-tsk: I will never ever put my family in such hassle

roly8
06-04-12, 18:21
Like I said earlier, if you are leveraging to generate passive incomes from investment property that is fine. but to over leverage so that you can enjoy a 3.2m property, that to me is suicidal. Although both are leveraging, but they are leveraging for the different purpose.

Can you explain from a cash flow point of view, how are you going to get "rich" by taking up 80% loan on a 3.2m property for own stay?

Like someone already said, weather you take up car loan or not, car and the COE is a depreciating assets and you still need set aside money for replacement when the car reaches 10 years.

like this ;);)


bankruptcy will be at the doorstep if one fail to service their loan one day..
you can enjoy now but must face the music if you cannot take the risk later on...

so, it is up to one's risk appetite at the end of the day..
be it high risk, moderate or conservative.....remember to weigh the pro & con carefully.. :D

:cheers5::cheers5::cheers4::cheers4::cheers4:

amk
06-04-12, 19:54
No one is going to teach you how to invest.
You are risk adverse, this is evident. This is fine. It's a choice u made.
Everything is relative. Starting with a 1m pty own stay, with another 1m investment pty. 3yrs later, upgraded to a 3m pty own stay, and another 6m investment pties on leverage. Life on an edge ? Maybe, maybe not.
Can be 60%. I just give a scale. 3.2m cash flow is 6k a month.
Above just an example.
If you are not comfortable with a 8k investment with 16k income, you probably were not comfortable with a 2k investment with 5k income when you were single or younger.
There is no free lunch. No risk no gain. And pty is probably the least risky investment compared to stocks or funds, with the cheapest borrowing cost.
If u every day worry about "what if", then anything leveraged is not for you. In that case u also should accept you will not gain much in the end.

amk
06-04-12, 19:58
Btw just to clarify one thing, I'm not telling everyone to go buy pty now. I'm just talking abt pty investment, or leveraged investment, in general. Pty market today is in a strange state. Tread with extreme care.

hyenergix
06-04-12, 20:01
No one is going to teach you how to invest.
You are risk adverse, this is evident. This is fine. It's a choice u made.
Everything is relative. Starting with a 1m pty own stay, with another 1m investment pty. 3yrs later, upgraded to a 3m pty own stay, and another 6m investment pties on leverage. Life on an edge ? Maybe, maybe not.
Can be 60%. I just give a scale. 3.2m cash flow is 6k a month.
Above just an example.
If you are not comfortable with a 8k investment with 16k income, you probably were not comfortable with a 2k investment with 5k income when you were single or younger.
There is no free lunch. No risk no gain. And pty is probably the least risky investment compared to stocks or funds, with the cheapest borrowing cost.
If u every day worry about "what if", then anything leveraged is not for you. In that case u also should accept you will not gain much in the end.

Most people may not have a safety net like well off parents or inheritance. A mis-step will mean financial ruin for e rest of their lives. I advocate building up a safety nest of cash buffer first before using the new extra cash (i.e. u can afford to lose) for higher risk investments. I have myself built up my coffin money that I will never touch unless in emergency. Currently any incoming cash are used for investments.

stiook
06-04-12, 20:13
i agree with this point
hope those buying into punggol $1500-1600psf condo ...don't do this :scared-5::scared-5:

I suppse these people will be earning >$12k household income... otherwise might as well go for the EC... so instalment payment likely between 20% - 30% of gross income... depending on size.

peterng8
06-04-12, 21:46
2012 Property Prices Outlook: It's all downhill from here

Private residentials are too expensive now for what homebuyers are willing to pay which will lead to a 5% yearly dip, says Colliers.
The high-end market is experiencing a sales drought which should persist as purchasers look for more value deals, and even in the mass-market segment where such bargains can be found, the influx of new supply will still push prices down.
Overall, the 2012 property prices will suffer from a gradual easing with the government letting the current cooling measures drag down the price index to more reasonable levels.
"With prices exceeding historical peaks, homebuyers have become increasingly resistant towards further price growth. Coupled with the continued injection of land supply for the development of private residential projects, Executive Condominiums and more public housing from planned Build-To-Order flats, a buyers’ market with increased options may eventually emerge," said Ms Chia Siew Chuin, Director of Research & Advisory, Colliers International.
"Additionally, while the low interest rate environment could support home buying in 2012, particularly in the primary market, the slow resale market will continue to put a drag on prices. The high-end/luxury market, which is already languishing in slow sales activity, is also expected to see further price falls as prospective buyers continue to hold back on their purchases. In the mass-market segment, demand will continue to be somewhat supply driven. However, with increasing supply and options available, the potential price growth for mass-market homes will be minimised," she said.

Rosegarden
06-04-12, 22:37
I am hoping to buy Pavilion Park at 2.3 million SGD, with household income of 7kSGD+++, with my parents rental of 2k++ pooled.

Are you trying to wind us up?

2.3M at 80% LTV easily 6-7k mortgage payment per month, thereby leaving your family to live on the 2k rental income, or during tenancy gap, live on free meals at temple? You have been asking lots of questions on property investments, so you must know about mortgage calculations. Therefore back to the question, why are you trying to wind us up?

Wait...ok maybe you are going to pay 50% with cash.

kane
06-04-12, 22:54
2012 Property Prices Outlook: It's all downhill from here

Private residentials are too expensive now for what homebuyers are willing to pay which will lead to a 5% yearly dip, says Colliers.
The high-end market is experiencing a sales drought which should persist as purchasers look for more value deals, and even in the mass-market segment where such bargains can be found, the influx of new supply will still push prices down.
Overall, the 2012 property prices will suffer from a gradual easing with the government letting the current cooling measures drag down the price index to more reasonable levels.
"With prices exceeding historical peaks, homebuyers have become increasingly resistant towards further price growth. Coupled with the continued injection of land supply for the development of private residential projects, Executive Condominiums and more public housing from planned Build-To-Order flats, a buyers’ market with increased options may eventually emerge," said Ms Chia Siew Chuin, Director of Research & Advisory, Colliers International.
"Additionally, while the low interest rate environment could support home buying in 2012, particularly in the primary market, the slow resale market will continue to put a drag on prices. The high-end/luxury market, which is already languishing in slow sales activity, is also expected to see further price falls as prospective buyers continue to hold back on their purchases. In the mass-market segment, demand will continue to be somewhat supply driven. However, with increasing supply and options available, the potential price growth for mass-market homes will be minimised," she said.

I would have thought homebuyers are more resistant towards further price growth until I saw how they were snapping up new developments at 30% premium to resale...

teddybear
07-04-12, 00:04
1) Not true wah, still got so many people willing to buy new launch at >30%-60% premium to resale. They have cheaper option and that is resale properties at >30% discount! So how can private residentials be expensive? If you say the new launch are expensive, then the resale are cheap! :beats-me-man:

2) What value buyers are looking for in high-end properties when they are selling at like $1800-2500 psf when OCR already selling at $1500 psf? The gap between OCR and CCR are so small, at multi-decade narrowest gap, if that is not value than what is it? :doh:

3) Slow and cheap resale not affecting new launch!



2012 Property Prices Outlook: It's all downhill from here

Private residentials are too expensive now for what homebuyers are willing to pay which will lead to a 5% yearly dip, says Colliers.
The high-end market is experiencing a sales drought which should persist as purchasers look for more value deals, and even in the mass-market segment where such bargains can be found, the influx of new supply will still push prices down.
Overall, the 2012 property prices will suffer from a gradual easing with the government letting the current cooling measures drag down the price index to more reasonable levels.
"With prices exceeding historical peaks, homebuyers have become increasingly resistant towards further price growth. Coupled with the continued injection of land supply for the development of private residential projects, Executive Condominiums and more public housing from planned Build-To-Order flats, a buyers’ market with increased options may eventually emerge," said Ms Chia Siew Chuin, Director of Research & Advisory, Colliers International.
"Additionally, while the low interest rate environment could support home buying in 2012, particularly in the primary market, the slow resale market will continue to put a drag on prices. The high-end/luxury market, which is already languishing in slow sales activity, is also expected to see further price falls as prospective buyers continue to hold back on their purchases. In the mass-market segment, demand will continue to be somewhat supply driven. However, with increasing supply and options available, the potential price growth for mass-market homes will be minimised," she said.

Poloclub
07-04-12, 00:54
1) Not true wah, still got so many people willing to buy new launch at >30%-60% premium to resale. They have cheaper option and that is resale properties at >30% discount! So how can private residentials be expensive? If you say the new launch are expensive, then the resale are cheap! :beats-me-man:

2) What value buyers are looking for in high-end properties when they are selling at like $1800-2500 psf when OCR already selling at $1500 psf? The gap between OCR and CCR are so small, at multi-decade narrowest gap, if that is not value than what is it? :doh:

3) Slow and cheap resale not affecting new launch!

Psf might be narrowing but the absoulute quantum gap between ocr and ccr properties is still there.

radha08
07-04-12, 01:10
Btw just to clarify one thing, I'm not telling everyone to go buy pty now. I'm just talking abt pty investment, or leveraged investment, in general. Pty market today is in a strange state. Tread with extreme care.

aye aye captain...WE read you loud and clear...:D:D:D

lufu
07-04-12, 10:16
My advice to you is, wait a little bit," Mr Tharman told the undergraduates.


Cooling measure in another form,size,shape. :)

US Fed also quite often uses verbal intervention. Now, Govt also using the same tool. Sometimes verbal intervention can be as effective as direct intervention when used appropriately.

Reading the amount of 'argument' here. I can see that his verbal intervention is working very effectively. :D :D :D

peterng8
07-04-12, 10:17
I would have thought homebuyers are more resistant towards further price growth until I saw how they were snapping up new developments at 30% premium to resale...

yeap for new one..people rather look at quantum than psf for new one...ironically resale seller look at psf(based on psf of new devpt, even some discount on psf alone make the bigger older sibling looks hard to swallow ha ha) and buying new esp today situation seems attractive enough...:p :p

I think what colliers mentioned is true to this point of time BUT it makes the further prediction that the price overall will drop FOR Whole market that only time will tell..unless another CM will come, notice straits time forum page have many written in begining of the year till now on the pricing concern again...:p

patricia
07-04-12, 10:55
$6K expenses for the entire family is a lot?

I can sure break it down for you, but of course you have the right to say those are unnecessary expenses or not classified under expenses just to justify your argument that spending 50% of household income on mortgage is justifiable.

1) Maid = $700 per month
2) Utilities = $400 per month
3) Phone bill for family = $400 per month
4) Internet/Cable = $100 per month
5) Health insurance etc = $1200 per month
6) Transportation = $1800 per month
7) Grocery = $800 per month
8) Food/Entertainment = $1000 per month
9) Childcare = $600 per month

And this is excluding other expenses like travelling healthcare furniture or taking care of elderly parents etc.

It would also be nice if you could explain how setting aside $2K saving per month for a family with $14K expenses per month (including mortgage) is sufficient?

If you want to compare food price, one should compare the cost of grocery because that is the cheapest source of food not restaurant or hawker center.Teddy is trying to be funny. He try to influence people to go into property to support his languishing CCR property even if it hardly helpful. Extremely selfish person. He live lavishly and but encourage people to live like a begger by investing most of you income on property. Extreme selfishness without limit.:tongue3: :tongue3: :tongue3:

price
07-04-12, 11:38
Teddy is trying to be funny. He try to influence people to go into property to support his languishing CCR property even if it hardly helpful. Extremely selfish person. He live lavishly and but encourage people to live like a begger by investing most of you income on property. Extreme selfishness without limit.:tongue3: :tongue3: :tongue3:

haha most ppl TCSS here while waiting for crisis ma:D :cheers6:

Douk
07-04-12, 11:41
6k expense a month for a normal family of 4 ?? Something is not right. If u r doing this u should seriously check your expenses.

... I see the bulk of it come from 1800 car loan and 1000 dining entertaining expenses, is that so ?

5-6k monthly expense on family of 4 is a norm. Factor in children education and enrichment classes, parent allowance, transport, householold, insurance, family outing, etc.
Many of these expenses can be reduced, but is it necessary when having comfortable income.

carbuncle
07-04-12, 12:53
yeap for new one..people rather look at quantum than psf for new one...ironically resale seller look at psf(based on psf of new devpt, even some discount on psf alone make the bigger older sibling looks hard to swallow ha ha) and buying new esp today situation seems attractive enough...:p :p

I think what colliers mentioned is true to this point of time BUT it makes the further prediction that the price overall will drop FOR Whole market that only time will tell..unless another CM will come, notice straits time forum page have many written in begining of the year till now on the pricing concern again...:p
I think most of these buyers mind is hey I got my preferred unit and only pay gradually and in full after only say 4yrs when it TOP so its not much right? By then I should have made handsome (paper) profit no? These upgraders naively think what they enjoyed in hdb will be replicated in private market... Zzzz.... One is govt controlled subsidised commodity and the other is subject to free market forces... Although I must say now not so 'free' with govt stepping in but it works against their favour as they are trying to suppress the private prices... People who bought now can hope to sell for profit maybe after 2 cycles... 10yrs later?

carbuncle
07-04-12, 12:58
I would have thought homebuyers are more resistant towards further price growth until I saw how they were snapping up new developments at 30% premium to resale...
These ANALyst reports have hidden agenda one. And you will notice its always the same few who speak with white pants beneath. They are out to influence the readers into thinking market will correct and not to buy now. Must echo same tune as minister ma... The power of influence... If you keep repeating a story or scenario until it sinks in to masses minds and becomes top of recall in any taxi driver, coffee shop or property agent mouth, then it IS going to happen. I think there is a saying... Something like if you repeat a rumour or idea often, strongly and wide spread enough it will become self fulfilling prophecy....

shauntanzs
07-04-12, 13:06
1) Not true wah, still got so many people willing to buy new launch at >30%-60% premium to resale. They have cheaper option and that is resale properties at >30% discount! So how can private residentials be expensive? If you say the new launch are expensive, then the resale are cheap! :beats-me-man:

2) What value buyers are looking for in high-end properties when they are selling at like $1800-2500 psf when OCR already selling at $1500 psf? The gap between OCR and CCR are so small, at multi-decade narrowest gap, if that is not value than what is it? :doh:

3) Slow and cheap resale not affecting new launch!

Cannot use psf to compare lah, must used quantum lah.
RV 2BR 1100sf @ $1500psf = $1.65mil
Punggol 2BR 700sf @ $1500psf = $1.05mil

carbuncle
07-04-12, 13:07
Most people may not have a safety net like well off parents or inheritance. A mis-step will mean financial ruin for e rest of their lives. I advocate building up a safety nest of cash buffer first before using the new extra cash (i.e. u can afford to lose) for higher risk investments. I have myself built up my coffin money that I will never touch unless in emergency. Currently any incoming cash are used for investments.
Frankly, this time of market is the best for building up reserves. I simply dont understand why people rushing in to buy at high price... Not like all future launches gonna use glass or plastic walls and not concrete...

peterng8
07-04-12, 13:53
These ANALyst reports have hidden agenda one. And you will notice its always the same few who speak with white pants beneath. They are out to influence the readers into thinking market will correct and not to buy now. Must echo same tune as minister ma... The power of influence... If you keep repeating a story or scenario until it sinks in to masses minds and becomes top of recall in any taxi driver, coffee shop or property agent mouth, then it IS going to happen. I think there is a saying... Something like if you repeat a rumour or idea often, strongly and wide spread enough it will become self fulfilling prophecy....

U mean EVERYONe has access to these International research report that is quoted(such as collier international)?:p

or are u referring to the few always on newspaper such as Colin tan, Ku swee yong, nicholas Mak just to mention these few? :p

so far new projs have gone the oppsite what the garmen preached for(CMs after CMs)...:p

teddybear
07-04-12, 13:54
I think clarification is needed here.

1. Firstly, influence or not is subjective, but I am telling from my heart that now there is value only in CCR property and not in OCR property, and I provided my reasons to believe so, so believe it or not is up to you, I don't put a gun to your head. :p

2. If you are poor, how to tell you to live lavishly? That will become a lie and damn lie right? So I teach to live frugally first and save money to invest to become rich before you live lavishly. Is that wrong? :beats-me-man:

3. Based on above 2, what selfishness are there? In fact, I have been so kind hearted to teach you people how to become rich, but instead as the saying goes, "kind-hearted do not get good recompense". Some people just deserve to be thrown to feed the tigers. The world will be more peaceful after that..... :p



Teddy is trying to be funny. He try to influence people to go into property to support his languishing CCR property even if it hardly helpful. Extremely selfish person. He live lavishly and but encourage people to live like a begger by investing most of you income on property. Extreme selfishness without limit.:tongue3: :tongue3: :tongue3:

peterng8
07-04-12, 13:57
I think most of these buyers mind is hey I got my preferred unit and only pay gradually and in full after only say 4yrs when it TOP so its not much right? By then I should have made handsome (paper) profit no? These upgraders naively think what they enjoyed in hdb will be replicated in private market... Zzzz.... One is govt controlled subsidised commodity and the other is subject to free market forces... Although I must say now not so 'free' with govt stepping in but it works against their favour as they are trying to suppress the private prices... People who bought now can hope to sell for profit maybe after 2 cycles... 10yrs later?

YES u are rite, I defineitly think so for the thinking of those buyers for new projs with advantage that most are priced at affordable quantum(although high psf) and with discount galore....:p

patricia
07-04-12, 14:11
I think clarification is needed here.

1. Firstly, influence or not is subjective, but I am telling from my heart that now there is value only in CCR property and not in OCR property, and I provided my reasons to believe so, so believe it or not is up to you, I don't put a gun to your head. :p

2. If you are poor, how to tell you to live lavishly? That will become a lie and damn lie right? So I teach to live frugally first and save money to invest to become rich before you live lavishly. Is that wrong? :beats-me-man:

3. Based on above 2, what selfishness are there? In fact, I have been so kind hearted to teach you people how to become rich, but instead as the saying goes, "kind-hearted do not get good recompense". Some people just deserve to be thrown to feed the tigers. The world will be more peaceful after that..... :p
With your rubbish reasoning:
1.It shows that you are getting more desperate by days ( or hours??). Even what you said can have only little influence on your CCR, you still want to try. I told you months ago that what come around go around. Your....... are numbered.
2. You telling people do what i told you not what i do. Aren't u a pperfect hypocrite:tsk-
tsk:
3. Kind hearted?? Ha ha ha. Tell that to the wall.. Not to us. You will swallow a victim at the first available oppoutunity.

carbuncle
07-04-12, 14:17
U mean EVERYONe has access to these International research report that is quoted(such as collier international)?:p

or are u referring to the few always on newspaper such as Colin tan, Ku swee yong, nicholas Mak just to mention these few? :p

so far new projs have gone the oppsite what the garmen preached for(CMs after CMs)...:p
Referring to those names you mentioned la... Indeed they have failed in their jobs so they better buck up and write more or improve on their psycho effect of writings lol - too bad they forgot Singaporean are just 贱 the more you ask them not to do something the more they wanna do it...

DC33_2008
07-04-12, 14:47
If you ask people to buy just after Lethman, most of the people will tell you the market will collapse. Why buy! It was indeed the best time to buy. A unit at MBR on 44th floor overseeing bay and MBS was at $1795psf. Now, look at it. ;)
I think clarification is needed here.

1. Firstly, influence or not is subjective, but I am telling from my heart that now there is value only in CCR property and not in OCR property, and I provided my reasons to believe so, so believe it or not is up to you, I don't put a gun to your head. :p

2. If you are poor, how to tell you to live lavishly? That will become a lie and damn lie right? So I teach to live frugally first and save money to invest to become rich before you live lavishly. Is that wrong? :beats-me-man:

3. Based on above 2, what selfishness are there? In fact, I have been so kind hearted to teach you people how to become rich, but instead as the saying goes, "kind-hearted do not get good recompense". Some people just deserve to be thrown to feed the tigers. The world will be more peaceful after that..... :p

teddybear
07-04-12, 14:58
Rubbish to you? Never mind, please list me in your "ignore" list so that you will not see any of my posting and corrupt your mind. :p

I know you are all out to smear me, never mind, I won't be bothered since I already made my point. :tongue3:

The rest I leave it to all readers here to decide. Oh by the way, I tell people to buy private properties sometime in April/May 2009 (this forum has the record, you can search for my postings). Not sure you heed what I said? Otherwise, you will be kissing my ass rather than all out to smear me. I bet you missed the boat big time! :doh:



With your rubbish reasoning:
1.It shows that you are getting more desperate by days ( or hours??). Even what you said can have only little influence on your CCR, you still want to try. I told you months ago that what come around go around. Your....... are numbered.
2. You telling people do what i told you not what i do. Aren't u a pperfect hypocrite:tsk-
tsk:
3. Kind hearted?? Ha ha ha. Tell that to the wall.. Not to us. You will swallow a victim at the first available oppoutunity.

amk
07-04-12, 19:58
If you ask people to buy just after Lethman, most of the people will tell you the market will collapse. Why buy! It was indeed the best time to buy. A unit at MBR on 44th floor overseeing bay and MBS was at $1795psf. Now, look at it. ;)

I think he did. ( ask ppl to buy pty then)

And Patricia, that's really uncalled for. We are here debating merits of pty investment as a proportion of one's income. There are disagreements, and that's just it. You are getting a bit personal.

repanse71
07-04-12, 21:05
Rubbish to you? Never mind, please list me in your "ignore" list so that you will not see any of my posting and corrupt your mind. :p

I know you are all out to smear me, never mind, I won't be bothered since I already made my point. :tongue3:

The rest I leave it to all readers here to decide. Oh by the way, I tell people to buy private properties sometime in April/May 2009 (this forum has the record, you can search for my postings). Not sure you heed what I said? Otherwise, you will be kissing my ass rather than all out to smear me. I bet you missed the boat big time! :doh:

I listened. I am very happy now :-)
Thanks

Regulators
07-04-12, 21:14
Have you guys read ku swee yong's book on riches in property, most of it quite standard but there were a few pages on his views on where to invest. If his views are wrong, he would be putting his reputation on the line

kane
07-04-12, 21:21
Have you guys read ku swee yong's book on riches in property, most of it quite standard but there were a few pages on his views on where to invest. If his views are wrong, he would be putting his reputation on the line

i think i remember his bullish calls on prime district in 2007. but during the following 18months, it was the sector that dropped the most. frankly, it's very easy to say buy prime. but if you buy at the wrong time, the swings can also be the biggest.

teddybear
07-04-12, 22:12
Hey, I recalled J-Dog in 2009 had a totally different opinion from mine and missed big time. believed that his is still waiting to buy.... He even bet on his little brother but went missing after that.

Are you or/and Mr. B is/are the reincarnated J-Dog?

Your styles of writings look famaliar le..:tongue3::
http://forums.condosingapore.com/showpost.php?p=48418&postcount=159


With your rubbish reasoning:
1.It shows that you are getting more desperate by days ( or hours??). Even what you said can have only little influence on your CCR, you still want to try. I told you months ago that what come around go around. Your....... are numbered.
2. You telling people do what i told you not what i do. Aren't u a pperfect hypocrite:tsk-
tsk:
3. Kind hearted?? Ha ha ha. Tell that to the wall.. Not to us. You will swallow a victim at the first available oppoutunity.

teddybear
08-04-12, 00:40
Good to hear that! :)

Looking back, during Apr/May 2009 that time when I said it is Ok to buy private properties, and $8k income can afford $1m properties, I had been wacked upside down for telling people that by stalingrad, J-Dog, HP65, gfoo, cartman, and many others! Think you are the lone supporters? Well at least we have the laugh! :cheers4:


I listened. I am very happy now :-)
Thanks

basic
08-04-12, 06:14
Hey, I recalled J-Dog in 2009 had a totally different opinion from mine and missed big time. believed that his is still waiting to buy.... He even bet on his little brother but went missing after that.

Are you or/and Mr. B is/are the reincarnated J-Dog?

Your styles of writings look famaliar le..:tongue3::
http://forums.condosingapore.com/showpost.php?p=48418&postcount=159





this one is a real stupid moron......
he self-claimed as a moron himself.....:):)

Poloclub
08-04-12, 07:15
The rest I leave it to all readers here to decide. Oh by the way, I tell people to buy private properties sometime in April/May 2009 (this forum has the record, you can search for my postings). Not sure you heed what I said? Otherwise, you will be kissing my ass rather than all out to smear me. I bet you missed the boat big time! :doh:

When you say leave it to others here to decide, then you shouldn't try to hard sell your so-called prediction at the same time. Honestly its really a no-brainer that every time there is a steep correction in property or stock market, that will be the buying opportunity. In fact I also bought (not cheap talk) a penthouse unit at beginning 09 without even knowing this forum existed and I am sitting on 60-70% gain right now.

I am pretty new to this forum, but I do notice that you have very strong opinion against OCR property. Is that because you have missed the boat on OCR property BIG TIME?

yowetan
08-04-12, 09:56
Good to hear that! :)

Looking back, during Apr/May 2009 that time when I said it is Ok to buy private properties, and $8k income can afford $1m properties, I had been wacked upside down for telling people that by stalingrad, J-Dog, HP65, gfoo, cartman, and many others! Think you are the lone supporters? Well at least we have the laugh! :cheers4:

Hi, could you recommend me what to do? My household income is around 7000+ with 2000+ from rental. Can I afford a second property?

august
08-04-12, 10:27
Hi, could you recommend me what to do? My household income is around 7000+ with 2000+ from rental. Can I afford a second property?

perhaps u should wait, or buy something not exceeding 600-700k.

phantom_opera
08-04-12, 10:30
Hi, could you recommend me what to do? My household income is around 7000+ with 2000+ from rental. Can I afford a second property?

Take over one of my MMs :D

Teddy is a nice guy, he did recommend buying in mid 2009, I can also see the value of CCR relative to OCR ... but whether this is the right timing is a big ?

buttercarp
08-04-12, 10:30
perhaps u should wait, or buy something not exceeding 600-700k.
His choices are very limited with that amount.
Left with MM and maybe the ultra small Natura @ Hillview.
Also can consider commercial property?

DC33_2008
08-04-12, 10:34
Prices of OCR have just gone crazy in the last 1-2 years. It is due to the success of URA planning strategy to move people to the hubs with the help of new mrt lines and expressways. People with such high commitment in their PCs will have to work harder. However, if you observe carefully where the place garment is investing their money in will have more action and grow. This is quite apparent. :D
When you say leave it to others here to decide, then you shouldn't try to hard sell your so-called prediction at the same time. Honestly its really a no-brainer that every time there is a steep correction in property or stock market, that will be the buying opportunity. In fact I also bought (not cheap talk) a penthouse unit at beginning 09 without even knowing this forum existed and I am sitting on 60-70% gain right now.

I am pretty new to this forum, but I do notice that you have very strong opinion against OCR property. Is that because you have missed the boat on OCR property BIG TIME?

peterng8
08-04-12, 11:44
Referring to those names you mentioned la... Indeed they have failed in their jobs so they better buck up and write more or improve on their psycho effect of writings lol - too bad they forgot Singaporean are just 贱 the more you ask them not to do something the more they wanna do it...


:p :p :p

sound familiar to this wordings last time" if you throw your white card to so and so in this very constituency, u will face the consequences"...ending up people in that ward still feel shiok to face the consequences by doing the opposite...:o

peterng8
08-04-12, 15:08
Propertyguru's interpretation in general? and what are the active measures THAT WILL BE (not have been) implemented? time will tell only(or is it just an increase in supply only??buts o far does it help? look at new and small proj galore...) ...but he said "wait a bit" :p :p

Tharman: Govt working to cool property market

Overwhelming demand in the housing market has exceeded supply in recent years, and as a result, prices have surged faster than peoples’ incomes.
Tharman Shanmugaratnam, Singapore’s Deputy Prime Minister, commented that “we’re not in a very happy part of the cycle,” according to a Straits Times report.
Mr Tharman was responding to a query raised by Yvonne Ho, an engineering doctoral student, during yesterday’s Kent Ridge Ministerial Forum.
She had asked about the effects of high property prices on low- and middle-income Singaporeans.
Although Mr Tharman admitted that the government has been “behind the curve in the supply of housing,” he assured that active measures will be implemented to cool the property market.

He added that through a significant increase of units in both the private and public housing markets, those issues would be addressed accordingly.
Source : PropertyGuru – 5 Apr 2012

teddybear
08-04-12, 15:09
Actually, it is difficult for people to tell you what you should do. We can only give you advice for your consideration and the rest of the calculations and final decision will still have to depend on you. I said "calculations" because you should have proper financial planning as to how much you can effort and is comfortable with (that you can sleep soundly at night even if property prices fall, as long as you can service the instalment).

You said you want to put money into 2nd property. Is that 2nd property for own stay or rent out? How much money you put into the 2nd property depends on that. If the 2nd property is for renting out, then by right it should generate rental income which is about sufficient to pay for monthly instalment. If the 2nd property is for own stay, then it is not wise to throw all monthly income into just servicing the instalment for that property. You should have some cash stash aside and put into liquid assets for emergency use (can cap at max 1 year of your living expenses + property instalment).

Also, depends on what property you want to buy. As phantom said, " I can also see the value of CCR relative to OCR ... but whether this is the right timing is a big ?". While when is the right time to buy is always a big "?", however, in my opinion, it is quite no-brainer that buying new launch OCR now is a big NO NO at >$1300 psf in those ulu ulu places! I see more value in resale properties if you need to buy and can afford. Note that here, I only say "value" and "afford" or not, not a recommendation to buy now or not. Obviously now is not the best time compared to early 2009, but if you are buying a roof over your head, the best time is NOW! (buying a roof over the head can't wait too long, not worth paying rental ha ha ha! Only foreigners who have no intention to stay in Singapore for long will rent).

At a monthly income of about $10k pm (including CPF), assuming the property is for own stay, how much monthly instalment you can afford = (Monthly income (including CPF)) - (monthly expenses) - (monthly cash to stash aside).
Assuming your monthly expenses is about $3.5k and you can stash aside $1.5k pm cash, this means you can afford $5k pm monthly instalment which means you can afford probably a property loan of $1.38m (assume 30 years loan, 1.5% interest). If you can borrow 80%, that means a property value of $1.8m. Not advisable to buy anything that costs more than that. In above, you already give more than enough buffer for interest rate and instalment to increase with the $1.5k stash aside every month (assuming you already have sufficient emergency fund on hand).

Last but not least, before you even talk about investments, make sure you have sufficient insurance coverage to protect your future income. Suggest to get very high coverage of life & TPD (term insurance only, only need to up to 65 years old) - this type, pay $50 pm can get >$1m cover (if you are young)! Mortgage insurance or decreasing term insurance is worth it as they are very cheap and provide very high coverage. Get comprehensive as charged hospitalization cover as well. If you want Critical illness cover, get $100k-200k cover will do. Disability insurance also (good to have but not absolutely necessary).

And avoid below so-called "investments" since they are generally detrimental to us:
- Investment Linked policies
- Endowment policies
- Unit Trusts
- REITs
- Structured deposits/bonds/mini-bonds/perpetuals bonds/perpetual equities that are illiquid....
- Anything that the issuers/managers etc can cream you off with all sort of management fees and high sales charges etc without you having a say and stop them from doing so!



Hi, could you recommend me what to do? My household income is around 7000+ with 2000+ from rental. Can I afford a second property?

teddybear
08-04-12, 16:11
Think it is time for me to avoid posting if possible in order to avoid being branded as trying to hard sell. Time to retire soon from this forum.... :beats-me-man:


When you say leave it to others here to decide, then you shouldn't try to hard sell your so-called prediction at the same time. Honestly its really a no-brainer that every time there is a steep correction in property or stock market, that will be the buying opportunity. In fact I also bought (not cheap talk) a penthouse unit at beginning 09 without even knowing this forum existed and I am sitting on 60-70% gain right now.

I am pretty new to this forum, but I do notice that you have very strong opinion against OCR property. Is that because you have missed the boat on OCR property BIG TIME?

Douk
08-04-12, 17:57
Think it is time for me to avoid posting if possible in order to avoid being branded as trying to hard sell. Time to retire soon from this forum.... :beats-me-man:

Don't take it so serious. Your post is welcome.

ekl2ekl2
08-04-12, 19:13
Think it is time for me to avoid posting if possible in order to avoid being branded as trying to hard sell. Time to retire soon from this forum.... :beats-me-man:


You are right, there is no right or wrong timing in properties nor right/wrong answer to the CCR vs OCR debate, depends on one's needs and resources. Even the "lousiest" property in the "worst" location will eventually find a buyer. If buyer and seller are happy, lets all be happy for them.

You make very good posts, think many forumers like myself, enjoy them, keep it up!

yowetan
08-04-12, 19:32
Actually, it is difficult for people to tell you what you should do. We can only give you advice for your consideration and the rest of the calculations and final decision will still have to depend on you. I said "calculations" because you should have proper financial planning as to how much you can effort and is comfortable with (that you can sleep soundly at night even if property prices fall, as long as you can service the instalment).

You said you want to put money into 2nd property. Is that 2nd property for own stay or rent out? How much money you put into the 2nd property depends on that. If the 2nd property is for renting out, then by right it should generate rental income which is about sufficient to pay for monthly instalment. If the 2nd property is for own stay, then it is not wise to throw all monthly income into just servicing the instalment for that property. You should have some cash stash aside and put into liquid assets for emergency use (can cap at max 1 year of your living expenses + property instalment).

Also, depends on what property you want to buy. As phantom said, " I can also see the value of CCR relative to OCR ... but whether this is the right timing is a big ?". While when is the right time to buy is always a big "?", however, in my opinion, it is quite no-brainer that buying new launch OCR now is a big NO NO at >$1300 psf in those ulu ulu places! I see more value in resale properties if you need to buy and can afford. Note that here, I only say "value" and "afford" or not, not a recommendation to buy now or not. Obviously now is not the best time compared to early 2009, but if you are buying a roof over your head, the best time is NOW! (buying a roof over the head can't wait too long, not worth paying rental ha ha ha! Only foreigners who have no intention to stay in Singapore for long will rent).

At a monthly income of about $10k pm (including CPF), assuming the property is for own stay, how much monthly instalment you can afford = (Monthly income (including CPF)) - (monthly expenses) - (monthly cash to stash aside).
Assuming your monthly expenses is about $3.5k and you can stash aside $1.5k pm cash, this means you can afford $5k pm monthly instalment which means you can afford probably a property loan of $1.38m (assume 30 years loan, 1.5% interest). If you can borrow 80%, that means a property value of $1.8m. Not advisable to buy anything that costs more than that. In above, you already give more than enough buffer for interest rate and instalment to increase with the $1.5k stash aside every month (assuming you already have sufficient emergency fund on hand).

Last but not least, before you even talk about investments, make sure you have sufficient insurance coverage to protect your future income. Suggest to get very high coverage of life & TPD (term insurance only, only need to up to 65 years old) - this type, pay $50 pm can get >$1m cover (if you are young)! Mortgage insurance or decreasing term insurance is worth it as they are very cheap and provide very high coverage. Get comprehensive as charged hospitalization cover as well. If you want Critical illness cover, get $100k-200k cover will do. Disability insurance also (good to have but not absolutely necessary).

And avoid below so-called "investments" since they are generally detrimental to us:
- Investment Linked policies
- Endowment policies
- Unit Trusts
- REITs
- Structured deposits/bonds/mini-bonds/perpetuals bonds/perpetual equities that are illiquid....
- Anything that the issuers/managers etc can cream you off with all sort of management fees and high sales charges etc without you having a say and stop them from doing so!

The 2nd unit will be mainly for own stay purpose. My current loan monthly installment is around 1.5k with an outstanding loan of 460kSGD.

I am trying to fully maximise our household income of 7kSGD++ with 2k++ rental income. I am looking for a 3 bedder and above to accomodate my family (wife, 2 young children + parents).

repanse71
08-04-12, 19:47
Think it is time for me to avoid posting if possible in order to avoid being branded as trying to hard sell. Time to retire soon from this forum.... :beats-me-man:

Everyone's entitled to his opinion. We share, we hear, we listen, we internalize... to each his own. All should be welcome...

I am just disturbed and curious why some forum participants take things too personally...
有道 - 说者无意,听者有心

Regards

lifeline
08-04-12, 20:00
Think it is time for me to avoid posting if possible in order to avoid being branded as trying to hard sell. Time to retire soon from this forum.... :beats-me-man:


please stay and share, Teddybear!

your postings and opinions have been incisive, insightful and detailed. everyone is entitled to his / her own opinions and we are all here to listen and share. when there are disagreements, then let's discuss with an open mind. no one can force his / her own opinions on another.

thanks!

roly8
08-04-12, 20:10
if there is no debate/opposition, there will not be a first-world 'property-liament' on condosingapore.. :D:D

kane
08-04-12, 20:11
I don't agree his point that ccr is better than ocr when the comparison was started a few years ago. But i think he still makes some cogent points that are definitely worth a thought.

ikan bilis
08-04-12, 20:37
The 2nd unit will be mainly for own stay purpose. My current loan monthly installment is around 1.5k with an outstanding loan of 460kSGD.

I am trying to fully maximise our household income of 7kSGD++ with 2k++ rental income. I am looking for a 3 bedder and above to accomodate my family (wife, 2 young children + parents).


if you are with limited ca$h,... but so kancheong and so greedy for $$...
then go whack a big big dual-key EC lah....

- opt for dps in EC, think only 5% downpayment needed
- you can hold your hdb for another 1-2yrs, hdb price should still move up a bit
- sell you hdb before you EC payment kicks in, avoiding that 60% LTV regulation (ignore this if you could pay 40% 2-3yrs later, then hold hdb until EC top)
- your parent's hdb could still be rented out and used for you EC instalment ($7K/month is still very tight for EC instalment)
- can rent out the studio section of your EC later if you wanna squeeze every $ out of this world (may be equals to owning a 3rm hdb and a 3bdr condo at the same time)...

note:
- a 900K 4bdr EC likely will fetch 1.1-1.2mil after MOP...
- EC path is already the safest, and you have the ~200K advantage/priviledge given by ah gong...
- hdb price very little chances to drop drastically for next 1-2yrs...
- 100K cash is only enough for 250K property at LTV=60% 2nd property

think this is already the safest path...

:rolleyes: ;)




my suggestion: stay put with 2 hdb... tcss here and don;t buy....
and... if there are more kancheong and push-to-limit people like you... i gonna start selling my properties one by one liow... haiz...

DKSG
08-04-12, 20:54
His choices are very limited with that amount.
Left with MM and maybe the ultra small Natura @ Hillview.
Also can consider commercial property?

Butter is right. Commercial is the one that is heating up now. Still a long way to go! If can afford, choose a well located commercial with good traffic.

Got room to move up.

DKSG

lufu
08-04-12, 22:07
You make very good posts, think many forumers like myself, enjoy them, keep it up!

nicely said.

End of the day, no one can teach the other how best to spend his/her own money.

after all the 'teacher' is not the one who will bear the consequence or reap the profit/gain. :D

use your own judgement. if only everything is so clear cut and obvious.. nobody has a crystal ball.

Only limited few visionary (read Steve Jobs) could see beyond what others don't.

come back and review this thread 5 years later and said I should have / I should not have :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

ysyap
08-04-12, 22:23
In any good forums, there is always a need for differentiated views and opinions and some disagreements. Its extremely boring and lopsided if its just a unanimous view point... nothing to look forward to, no stimulus to the brains... :p

Rosegarden
09-04-12, 09:33
if there is no debate/opposition, there will not be a first-world 'property-liament' on condosingapore.. :D:D

Oh no ... will our property-liamentarians start nodding off? :D

august
09-04-12, 10:10
if there is no debate/opposition, there will not be a first-world 'property-liament' on condosingapore.. :D:D

But 60% disagrees with this. :D

ay123
09-04-12, 10:12
i am not teddybear fan but find he always support his view with reasoning. is up to individual to believe. i too think OCR is over-value but whether CCR is under-value is question mark. even if CCR undervalue, with govt so much intervention, is there room for growth since CCR is mainly supported by foreigner.

regency321
09-04-12, 15:53
I tend to agree with Teddy - that OCR is overvalued and CCR slowly becoming undervalued. Just look at the psf patterns emerging in the two sectors, you will see that it is out of balance when CCR psf is getting close to OCR.

Ringo33
10-04-12, 09:39
I tend to agree with Teddy - that OCR is overvalued and CCR slowly becoming undervalued. Just look at the psf patterns emerging in the two sectors, you will see that it is out of balance when CCR psf is getting close to OCR.


When you comparing psf are you comparing psf price of MM units in OCR to mid-large size apartment in CCR?

roly8
10-04-12, 10:40
Butter is right. Commercial is the one that is heating up now. Still a long way to go! If can afford, choose a well located commercial with good traffic.

Got room to move up.

DKSG

are there any freehold commercial unit?
or are they restricted to 60 years lease only?

gn108
10-04-12, 10:42
Got freehold industrial even - but tend to be really old.
Retail/Office have a few FH strata...Commercialguru to do your research


are there any freehold commercial unit?
or are they restricted to 60 years lease only?

roly8
10-04-12, 10:47
Got freehold industrial even - but tend to be really old.
Retail/Office have a few FH strata...Commercialguru to do your research

ok.. thanks alot :D

teddybear
10-04-12, 14:29
Thanks to you and the rest for your kind words...
Will still be around, be like the 90.5 FM (or 93.5 FM?), listen only to the good words, "listen" more talk less..... ;)


please stay and share, Teddybear!

your postings and opinions have been incisive, insightful and detailed. everyone is entitled to his / her own opinions and we are all here to listen and share. when there are disagreements, then let's discuss with an open mind. no one can force his / her own opinions on another.

thanks!