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ikan bilis
19-04-12, 11:25
We keep talking + being cautious about property price crashing… :scared-4:
Why not we tcss on how the govt will react if property price really crashed by 20-30%, and starts to affect the stability of the financial institutions...

:rolleyes: ;)

roly8
19-04-12, 11:27
if drop only by 5-10%, condo is ocr like sky habitant will still sell around $1400psf ,at worst scenario?

still quite an insane price ,right??

Leeds
19-04-12, 11:36
If prices fall by 30% and people are not losing their jobs, it is not a problem at all. For prices to fall by 30% is probably right since our incomes have not risen by that much.

Rosy
19-04-12, 11:44
If prices fall by 30% and people are not losing their jobs, it is not a problem at all. For prices to fall by 30% is probably right since our incomes have not risen by that much.
However, the price quantum for mass market condos has not risen much too.

Psf went up, sizes shrunk

azeoprop
19-04-12, 11:51
Yah quantum remained about the same since 2009.

2 bedroom from 650k
3 bedroom from 750k

Just that the standard size for 2 bedroom dropped from 980sqft to 780sqft while 3 bedroom dropped from 1250sqft to 950sqft now.

:doh:


Price was still the cheapest during the 2003-2006 period. :(

speculator
19-04-12, 14:21
Simple.

For very sudden drop like Lehman Global Financial Crisis,

1. Stop all GLS and BTO with immediate effect
2. Remove all policies implemented under Cooling Measures 1-5
3. Start deferred payment scheme
4. Change the LTV. 100% loan plus deferred payment
5. Lastly Remove stamp duty completely

For gradual decline, then will do any of the above in small gradual steps.

When all else fails, make sure HDB stays steady. 80% voters to look after. :D

Ilikeu
19-04-12, 14:58
They will start buying into properties themselves...

roly8
19-04-12, 15:36
They will start buying into properties themselves...

developers already plan to keep unsold units & sell them as service apartments their selves..

so we will expect to see some very competitive rental war in the rental market...

howgozit
19-04-12, 21:31
Simple.

For very sudden drop like Lehman Global Financial Crisis,

1. Stop all GLS and BTO with immediate effect
2. Remove all policies implemented under Cooling Measures 1-5
3. Start deferred payment scheme
4. Change the LTV. 100% loan plus deferred payment
5. Lastly Remove stamp duty completely

For gradual decline, then will do any of the above in small gradual steps.

When all else fails, make sure HDB stays steady. 80% voters to look after. :D

None of the above will happen

As seen in '97 crisis all cooling measures implemented in'96 were only removed in 2003..

The current CMs protects the banks with high LTVs. a 20-30% drop does not cause borrowers to get into negative equity.

ysyap
19-04-12, 22:09
At today's fundamentals, unless something drastic happens on the international sector, local housing prices are unlikely to encounter a 30% drop. Minor correction at best...

If something drastic happens to crash home price, govt will definitely remove previous CMs to heat up market simply to maintain the sector moving... ;)

ysyap
19-04-12, 22:12
When all else fails, make sure HDB stays steady. 80% voters to look after. :DWe have been saying (me included) that the current population staying in HDB consists of up to 80% of our population. However, with more HDB owners upgrading to PCs and HDB rental market for foreigners is moving rapidly, the percentage of citizens staying in HDB who can vote is probably shrinking. We cannot assume that the figure 80% is still accurate. Hmmm... :rolleyes:

Poloclub
19-04-12, 23:26
At today's fundamentals, unless something drastic happens on the international sector, local housing prices are unlikely to encounter a 30% drop. Minor correction at best...

If something drastic happens to crash home price, govt will definitely remove previous CMs to heat up market simply to maintain the sector moving... ;)

I cant foresee a crash, however it is possible that Singapore property might enter into a phase of flat growth or marginal decline when factor in inflation.

hyenergix
20-04-12, 06:07
I cant foresee a crash, however it is possible that Singapore property might enter into a phase of flat growth or marginal decline when factor in inflation.

As long as population continues to grow naturally and new citizens/PRs/foreign workers are allowed in, there is a buoyancy for property prices. There is a limit on how much land near city center or MRT stations can be sold to keep prices from escalating too fast. When we are close to the limit, prices will rocket like mad. Just look at our COE prices when demand exceeds the COE supply.

speculator
20-04-12, 06:59
None of the above will happen

As seen in '97 crisis all cooling measures implemented in'96 were only removed in 2003..

The current CMs protects the banks with high LTVs. a 20-30% drop does not cause borrowers to get into negative equity.


I don't see why none of the above.

http://app.mnd.gov.sg/Newsroom/NewsPage.aspx?ID=2671&category=Press%20Release&year=2008&RA1=&RA2=&RA3=

speculator
20-04-12, 06:59
None of the above will happen

As seen in '97 crisis all cooling measures implemented in'96 were only removed in 2003..

The current CMs protects the banks with high LTVs. a 20-30% drop does not cause borrowers to get into negative equity.


I don't see why none of the above.

http://app.mnd.gov.sg/Newsroom/NewsPage.aspx?ID=2671&category=Press%20Release&year=2008&RA1=&RA2=&RA3=

Allthepies
20-04-12, 07:39
We have been saying (me included) that the current population staying in HDB consists of up to 80% of our population. However, with more HDB owners upgrading to PCs and HDB rental market for foreigners is moving rapidly, the percentage of citizens staying in HDB who can vote is probably shrinking. We cannot assume that the figure 80% is still accurate. Hmmm... :rolleyes:
yup and not counting those who have hdb address but stay in private and those who stay in hdb but have private properties!

stl67
20-04-12, 10:11
:D
Simple.

For very sudden drop like Lehman Global Financial Crisis,

1. Stop all GLS and BTO with immediate effect
2. Remove all policies implemented under Cooling Measures 1-5
3. Start deferred payment scheme
4. Change the LTV. 100% loan plus deferred payment
5. Lastly Remove stamp duty completely

For gradual decline, then will do any of the above in small gradual steps.

When all else fails, make sure HDB stays steady. 80% voters to look after. :D
i bascially agrees with this. government dont like to see huge fluctuation lah.. no good for investor and also, huge price drop means stamp duty lesser leh, but they will not remove stamp duty lah:D

Poloclub
20-04-12, 12:54
As long as population continues to grow naturally and new citizens/PRs/foreign workers are allowed in, there is a buoyancy for property prices. There is a limit on how much land near city center or MRT stations can be sold to keep prices from escalating too fast. When we are close to the limit, prices will rocket like mad. Just look at our COE prices when demand exceeds the COE supply.


COE and property supply is heading in opposite direction at the moment and Singapore has not reach a stage where we are running out of land for building apartment. As long as government continue to expand MRT network and releasing land for HDB and PC, there will be sufficient supply to accommodate population growth.

insigina
20-04-12, 14:13
As long as population continues to grow naturally and new citizens/PRs/foreign workers are allowed in, there is a buoyancy for property prices. There is a limit on how much land near city center or MRT stations can be sold to keep prices from escalating too fast. When we are close to the limit, prices will rocket like mad. Just look at our COE prices when demand exceeds the COE supply.

No doubt land near city center or mrt is limited but note that there are lots of mrt stations yet to open. Imagine each mrt station sprout up and govt releases 4 to 6 parcels surrounding it...there will still be demand for these developments because people living in the vicinity will want to upgrade and be close to familiar surroundings, etc. Punggol is a good test case. Put in an integrated facility and the surroundings will correspondingly boom. Can you imagine if this formula is repeated across 20 percent of all mrt stations (exclude circle line). There could well be a new definition of classifying such developments other than the current CCR/OCR. On this score, I believe prices will continue to stay firm.

PN
20-04-12, 15:55
We have been saying (me included) that the current population staying in HDB consists of up to 80% of our population. However, with more HDB owners upgrading to PCs and HDB rental market for foreigners is moving rapidly, the percentage of citizens staying in HDB who can vote is probably shrinking. We cannot assume that the figure 80% is still accurate. Hmmm... :rolleyes:
From Singapore Statistics, HDB dwellers is still >80%

In 2011, resident household by type of dwelling as below
HDB 82.6%
Condo & Private Flat 11%
Landed 5.8%

Compare to year 2000, there is a 5% drop for HDB and increase of 4.7% for condo & private. There isn't much changes for landed.
HDB 87.7%
Condo & Private Flat 6.3%
Landed 5.1%

Median Monthly Household Income also increases from 2000 to 2011 in each category
HDB increase from $4,398 to $7,037, and increase or 60%
Condo & Private Flat increase from $10,316 to $14,669 or 42.2%
Landed increase form $11,940 to $17,464 or 46.3%

Singaporean like properties. Got money, upgrade to condo or buy one for investment. That's why got people stay in condo & rent out HDB or vice versa.

One interesting observation is that there is 0.6% that is not accounted for in 2011. In 2000, it's only 0.2% that is not accounted for. Who are these people?

Are these people renting like Mr B? Moved oversea & sold away their properties?

Juniper
20-04-12, 16:29
what we dont know is how many HDB dwellers already own private properties

maisonjai
20-04-12, 18:10
In 2011, resident household by type of dwelling as below
HDB 82.6%
Condo & Private Flat 11%
Landed 5.8%
One interesting observation is that there is 0.6% that is not accounted for in 2011. In 2000, it's only 0.2% that is not accounted for. Who are these people?

Are these people renting like Mr B? Moved oversea & sold away their properties?
Public rental flats?

Shanhz
09-11-12, 13:50
anyone here old enuff to personally or from immediate sources, remember that banks ask owners to top up ppty when outstanding loan amount > ppty valuation? i know there is a lot of hearsay, but did it actually happen? back in 1997/1998?

i have checked with my SCB and DBS banker. they say nothing of that sort even in worst times. AS LONG AS LOAN PAYMENT CONTINUES.

of course, if owner never pay up, that one dun say lah.

chestnut
09-11-12, 13:54
if drop only by 5-10%, condo is ocr like sky habitant will still sell around $1400psf ,at worst scenario?

still quite an insane price ,right??
Bro, you have just down graded sky habitat by 1 notch. Sky Habitat is RCR.

Here is the map

http://spring.ura.gov.sg/lad/ore/login/map_central_region.pdf

phantom_opera
09-11-12, 14:02
They will start buying into properties themselves...

Beast (Best) answer :D

Anyway how can price correct 20-30% when most ppl loan only 60% ... holding powerful super strong leh

Of course if prolonged great depression is different story but our Gobama will never allow that ... QE4 confirmed in December when Dow hit 12k

jeaprp
09-11-12, 14:08
anyone here old enuff to personally or from immediate sources, remember that banks ask owners to top up ppty when outstanding loan amount > ppty valuation? i know there is a lot of hearsay, but did it actually happen? back in 1997/1998?

i have checked with my SCB and DBS banker. they say nothing of that sort even in worst times. AS LONG AS LOAN PAYMENT CONTINUES.

of course, if owner never pay up, that one dun say lah.

Not that i heard of.
Bank did not ask for top up even during negative equity

ikan bilis
09-11-12, 15:36
me never heard of banks call for top up on mortgage loan if negative equity....

but,...
friend told me there were calling on OD (Overdraft on property), which means the borrower had structured the loan as partial term loan (normal mortgage) and partial OD. Or sometimes OD type of loan is used when borrower is >65yr old liow... so watch out if you have OD on property and negative equity during crisis...

next/future,...
i do not know if banks will call top up on equity loans during next crisis... me had been thinking of paying back my equity loans since also no good place/way to invest it... :(

Shanhz
09-11-12, 16:20
me never heard of banks call for top up on mortgage loan if negative equity....

but,...
friend told me there were calling on OD (Overdraft on property), which means the borrower had structured the loan as partial term loan (normal mortgage) and partial OD. Or sometimes OD type of loan is used when borrower is >65yr old liow... so watch out if you have OD on property and negative equity during crisis...

next/future,...
i do not know if banks will call top up on equity loans during next crisis... me had been thinking of paying back my equity loans since also no good place/way to invest it... :(

this depends on the loan structure and documentation. if you ask any bankers, they will explain why. OD is considered unsecured loan, whereas ppty loan is term loan. usually for term loan, as long as you continue payment, they CANNOT recall the loan (legally yes, the documentation sure cover the bank 110%, but practically no).

For OD, they can ask you to repay anytime, that is true.

maybe the bankers here can confirm.

DKSG
09-11-12, 17:55
From what I know in the office, there are hundreds of people asking Office Boy to inform them if property market corrects by 5-10%.

They are going to cheongster style the property market if they see a slight correction.

And mind you, my office is BIG Office ok ?

At the moment, there are already many people waiting on the sidelines for anything that is selling more than 3% below last done.

DKSG

newbie11
09-11-12, 18:03
Agree with office boy..

dtrax
09-11-12, 18:11
From what I know in the office, there are hundreds of people asking Office Boy to inform them if property market corrects by 5-10%.

They are going to cheongster style the property market if they see a slight correction.

And mind you, my office is BIG Office ok ?

At the moment, there are already many people waiting on the sidelines for anything that is selling more than 3% below last done.

DKSG

So scary... my feel is that if office boy's khakis all cash many many waiting to enter on slight correction then prices might not drop that much after all since prices are still on the uptrend, any slight fall will be well supported by these people.

roly8
09-11-12, 19:26
From what I know in the office, there are hundreds of people asking Office Boy to inform them if property market corrects by 5-10%.

They are going to cheongster style the property market if they see a slight correction.

And mind you, my office is BIG Office ok ?

At the moment, there are already many people waiting on the sidelines for anything that is selling more than 3% below last done.

DKSG

aiyo..

i think i can forget getting a property already:(

wind30
09-11-12, 19:27
We have been saying (me included) that the current population staying in HDB consists of up to 80% of our population. However, with more HDB owners upgrading to PCs and HDB rental market for foreigners is moving rapidly, the percentage of citizens staying in HDB who can vote is probably shrinking. We cannot assume that the figure 80% is still accurate. Hmmm... :rolleyes:

Actually the assumption that these 80% hdb dwellers is in favor of not crashing the property price is quite stupid.

I thought a lot of hdb owners want to upgrade. A crash is actually good for them if they intend to upgrade. Much easier to upgrade.

A lot of HDB owners are PISSED off by the rising prices because they missed the boat to upgrade.

carbuncle
09-11-12, 19:33
I am picturing vultures and hawks prancing on the cubicles walls in your office....

roly8
09-11-12, 19:52
Actually the assumption that these 80% hdb dwellers is in favor of not crashing the property price is quite stupid.

I thought a lot of hdb owners want to upgrade. A crash is actually good for them if they intend to upgrade. Much easier to upgrade.

A lot of HDB owners are PISSED off by the rising prices because they missed the boat to upgrade.

if they think again, upgrade to a better brick house might not really bring you much happiness...

:o

kane
09-11-12, 20:02
Implement heating measures 1,2, 3, 4... like bringing back 90% LTV.

3C
09-11-12, 20:24
Govt may need to standby more security at bedok reservoir. Many speculators will be heading there.

Allthepies
09-11-12, 20:46
Govt may need to standby more security at bedok reservoir. Many speculators will be heading there.

I tot most if not all speculators have been weeded out by the many CMs already?

3C
09-11-12, 21:04
I tot most if not all speculators have been weeded out by the many CMs already?
Many buyers had bought 1 or 2 projects - BUC thinking that they can sell for a profit in 4 years. This group took advantage of low interest climate & took huge loan and do not have much standby cash to last them over prolong down period. If rental falls below monthly installments, there it goes.

leesg123
09-11-12, 21:17
Many buyers had bought 1 or 2 projects - BUC thinking that they can sell for a profit in 4 years. This group took advantage of low interest climate & took huge loan and do not have much standby cash to last them over prolong down period. If rental falls below monthly installments, there it goes.
Sorry to disappoint. These group of people have paid 40% down payment, servicing 60% loan. For monthly rent to go below monthly installment, some thing really big have to happen. Such that those standing on the fence with cash to jump in most likely also will run away.

ekl2ekl2
09-11-12, 21:21
Many buyers had bought 1 or 2 projects - BUC thinking that they can sell for a profit in 4 years. This group took advantage of low interest climate & took huge loan and do not have much standby cash to last them over prolong down period. If rental falls below monthly installments, there it goes.

If this is true, does anyone have any real figures so that we know whether this is only a very small group or large numbers of people are involved. This could determine the next CM measures. With so many CM measures already in place, this may actually be a small group and the impact of any default will be limited.

phantom_opera
09-11-12, 22:24
stock can fall 90%

GroupOn
2.99 -0.93 (-23.72%)

52 week high at $26 :scared-1:

DKSG
09-11-12, 22:36
Agree with office boy..

Haha! I suspect you are one of those in my Office ... Hahaha!

DKSG

kane
09-11-12, 22:40
this stock gone case. the beeconomics owners laugh their way to the bank. i thought the model was stupid along. the user penetration rate is far too low here in singapore to give any value for the merchants advertising there. and it's always on some spa package, makan stuff. some of the electronics goods offer were old models, probably stock clearance.

DKSG
09-11-12, 22:43
this stock gone case. the beeconomics owners laugh their way to the bank. i thought the model was stupid along. the user penetration rate is far too low here in singapore to give any value for the merchants advertising there. and it's always on some spa package, makan stuff. some of the electronics goods offer were old models, probably stock clearance.

Hopefully the buyers used the shares in Groupon to pay for it. Haha!

DKSG

kane
09-11-12, 22:45
if i had some groupon vouchers, i will quickly change it to merchant's vouchers or buy the stuff man. not a good idea to be holding on to groupon vouchers when the stock is tanking like that.

auroraborealis
10-11-12, 11:45
actually this is only part true; topping up is not in literal sense where owner has loan n keeping on servicing, it's when owner has to sell property when negative equity n sales proceed cannot cover loan outstanding

typical balance sheet & loss spiral like what happened to banks during 08 financial crises... qn is: whether enough capital and liquidity/cash during bad times? If yes, no prob :2cents:


anyone here old enuff to personally or from immediate sources, remember that banks ask owners to top up ppty when outstanding loan amount > ppty valuation? i know there is a lot of hearsay, but did it actually happen? back in 1997/1998?

i have checked with my SCB and DBS banker. they say nothing of that sort even in worst times. AS LONG AS LOAN PAYMENT CONTINUES.

of course, if owner never pay up, that one dun say lah.

Shanhz
10-11-12, 13:14
actually this is only part true; topping up is not in literal sense where owner has loan n keeping on servicing, it's when owner has to sell property when negative equity n sales proceed cannot cover loan outstanding

typical balance sheet & loss spiral like what happened to banks during 08 financial crises... qn is: whether enough capital and liquidity/cash during bad times? If yes, no prob :2cents:

this is definite... if you sell and in negative equity, confirm have to top up..

anyway, just an update, i heard from my sources that O*B* indeed recalled home loans when the market tanked