View Full Version : Call to regulate developers - ST Forum
ESTATE agencies and their agents are now regulated by a well-defined code of practice, conduct and ethics.
Property developers, on the other hand, do not seem to be governed so, as my experience recently revealed.
Through an external agent, I viewed an existing property put up for sale by Far East Organization.
Prior to and during the viewing, the agent and the developer's salesman said that the selling price of the property was $2.26 million.Reach your goals with Manulifehttp://cdn.media.innity.net/201209_6614/22827/push_src/intext_icon_expand.gif
That same afternoon, the agent informed me that the developer would increase the price to $2.7 million with immediate effect.
However, as the salesman had communicated the price of $2.26 million prior to the intended increase, I was told that I would only have to pay for the lower price as long as I submitted the option to purchase and cheque by the end of that day.
Subsequent to asking for and receiving a re-affirmation from the developer on its offer and agreement on the $2.26 million price, I confirmed my intention to buy the property through the agent via an SMS text.
At 8pm that night, all parties met at the developer's satellite office, where the developer's senior manager was present for the paperwork.
But, before the option was signed, the senior manager received a telephone call, after which he informed us that his boss had decided against accepting my option to purchase.
I am writing to suggest that, apart from regulating and scrutinising estate agencies, the conduct and practices of developers should receive equal treatment, or be subject to an even more stringent oversight.
Danie Lim
Willing buyer willing seller, developers in this case are sellers. Unless gov also regulate every single seller in the mkt, otherwise doesnt make sense. Many individual sellers also behave this way.
Am sure the buyer missed out hearing "first come first served" somewhere....
The buyer is just crying because he doesnt understand FEO's pricing strategy. where got time for him to think 1
anyway, let's wait for FEO's official reply
I doubt the price can be increased by so much...from $2.26m to $2.7m
posted before by others
www.fareast.com.sg/en/Residential/For-Sale/FAQs.aspx (http://www.fareast.com.sg/en/Residential/For-Sale/FAQs.aspx)
20. Why is Far East price always higher than other developers, current market
price and resale market price? (http://www.fareast.com.sg/en/Residential/For-Sale/FAQs.aspx#)
Far East is one of the leading developers in Singapore. We provide quality products and services and aim to give our investors value for their money. We believe our pricing is market competitive.
We also price our properties based on several factors such as location, the type of development that we have (mid market or slightly higher-end or exclusive) and market prices.
When we launch our properties, we start by selling the low floors first and then move on to the high floors. Prices typically start moving up with the storey height. Hence, the prices of available units from the developer will always be higher compared to what is available in the subsale / resale market of the same development as earlier buyers put their units on the secondary market. This is one way of protecting our buyers and the value of their property. They can have better gains if they should eventually sell their properties.
FEO is just protecting their earlier buyers :)
buttercarp
13-10-12, 10:58
Legally the developer is not wrong.
But it is bad to play on the potential buyer's feelings after giving him so much hope.
An analogy would be not turning up at the ROM to register the marriage.
Let me quote my personal experience with FEO on the buying of one unit, not eCO.
The sale rep quoted me a price, in writing. I agreed. But after she checked with the site manager, the price was up without her knowledge. I think a difference of 1-1.5%.
I insisted the importance of representation. And finally, FEO gave in.
And the poor FEO agent, a young girl...got no commission...
That deal took about 3 hours to close.....
Let me quote my personal experience with FEO on the buying of one unit, not eCO.
The sale rep quoted me a price, in writing. I agreed. But after she checked with the site manager, the price was up without her knowledge. I think a difference of 1-1.5%.
I insisted the importance of representation. And finally, FEO gave in.
And the poor FEO agent, a young girl...got no commission...
That deal took about 3 hours to close.....
hope u gave her a red packet...
well, found something about NTF:
http://www.tremeritus.com/2011/03/11/health-minister-pledge-to-further-enhance-singapores-healthcare/
Cow:
March 11, 2011 at 8:30 pm (http://www.tremeritus.com/2011/03/11/health-minister-pledge-to-further-enhance-singapores-healthcare/comment-page-1/#comment-325035)
If u have money u can named hospital under your name , does not matter what u did in the past is all forgotten.
Khoo Teck Puat and the famous bank of Brunei case. ng Teng Fong tontine king in the 60s among the henghua ppl many of them got cheated , then he was know as Ah Pi or Moh peng working in his family soya sauce shop.....
I did heard the same thing from my dad's friends, the older generation.
From what they say, he got a rickshaw man to become director and get the blame and he (NTF) went to HK. after the statutte of limitation over, he come back to Singapore. The rest is history.
Will I be sued if I repeat the rumors?
Secretariat
13-10-12, 11:20
Legally the developer is not wrong.
But it is bad to play on the potential buyer's feelings after giving him so much hope.
An analogy would be not turning up at the ROM to register the marriage.
LOL, sis you are good leh...
A marriage that is based on hope. :doh:
Secretariat
13-10-12, 11:25
An oral agreement is legally binding mah...:doh:
Secretariat
13-10-12, 12:29
An oral agreement is legally binding mah...:doh:
If the scenario is like the following, then no case for Danie, OK?
Danie: How much is this unit?
Agent: $2.26 mil only...
Danie: OK, noted.
Then Danie jalan jalan, look see look see tcss etc.
Agent: Mr (or Ms?) Danie, our management just announced a price inflation. Now $2.7 mil already...:D But if you want hor, I can still work it out for you at old price la...But must issue OTP now hor...
Danie::doh: Aiyoyo...OK, I go have dinner with my Ah Gong now and get back to you can?
Agent:...ok lor but no guarantee hor...
Later during dinner.
Ah Gong: What? You siao arh...fast hand fast leg go and sign the OTP la...still want to eat arh...? :doh:
Danie (SMS to Agent): Can we meet at 8 pm your place to sign the OTP?
Agent (SMS): OK, but now hor the thing is outside my control, you know?
Later at the site office.
Danie: I confirm chop to buy this unit at $2.26 mil...give me the OTP to sign. :D
Agent: ......
Manager: Wah, now $2.7 mil leh, you don't know?
Danie: I know la, but want the old price mah...
Manager: Cannot la, where got so easy to tio 440K one...:doh:
Danie: ....huh? Wait I complaint to Forum then you know...
Manager: Cannot la...complaint also I can't help mah...
Danie went home and wrote to Forum.
hope u gave her a red packet...
do u know how much is the commission she missed ?
$375 only
do u know how much is the commission she missed ?
$375 only
si bei giam siap developer
Pikachu1245
13-10-12, 12:41
do u know how much is the commission she missed ?
$375 only
Really?Wondering how come you know as I always thought it is 1-1.5% of sales price for all agent.......:scared-4:
Wow
http://app2.nea.gov.sg/data/xml/rainlocation_map.gif
Pikachu1245
13-10-12, 12:46
Wow
http://app2.nea.gov.sg/data/xml/rainlocation_map.gif
Soorry ar.........what does this mean??? Property hotspot or weather hotspot or.........:confused:
Soorry ar.........what does this mean??? Property hotspot or weather hotspot or.........:confused:
Pouring storm now over our dear D15/16
Developers have already been 'punished' with the drop in share prices since last Friday...
Really?Wondering how come you know as I always thought it is 1-1.5% of sales price for all agent.......:scared-4:
For FEO, the sale persons are salaried, ie more like staff and need not to register with CEA.
Pouring storm now over our dear D15/16
now, just cloudy in D15 now
Pikachu1245
13-10-12, 14:00
Pouring storm now over our dear D15/16
I see ....... but wondering what is the relationship to topics being discussed here :confused:
Like to ask.........
If i offer my property for 1m, and the buyer says need to consider.....
after he gone home and take his sweet time to consider, he agreed to my 1m offer. can i reject and ask for 1.1m?
Like to ask.........
If i offer my property for 1m, and the buyer says need to consider.....
after he gone home and take his sweet time to consider, he agreed to my 1m offer. can i reject and ask for 1.1m?
no, you cannot reject and ask for 1.1m.
if you want to reject, you have to ask for 1.2m.
Let me quote my personal experience with FEO on the buying of one unit, not eCO.
The sale rep quoted me a price, in writing. I agreed. But after she checked with the site manager, the price was up without her knowledge. I think a difference of 1-1.5%.
I insisted the importance of representation. And finally, FEO gave in.
And the poor FEO agent, a young girl...got no commission...
That deal took about 3 hours to close.....
Have to say FEO marketing strategy is really powerful. Not only ppl buy at above market price, ppl even feel "lucky" after buying it.
Like to ask.........
If i offer my property for 1m, and the buyer says need to consider.....
after he gone home and take his sweet time to consider, he agreed to my 1m offer. can i reject and ask for 1.1m?
Of course can! One whole afternoon so many things can happen. E.g. terrorist attack and stock market panic selling, ur buyer may offer $800k and u will sell too. As long as not black and white, any thing also can.
blackjack21trader
13-10-12, 15:12
no, you cannot reject and ask for 1.1m.
if you want to reject, you have to ask for 1.2m.
as long as no OTP, nothing is binding. but i agree with bro hopeful, ask for more or else no face :(
blackjack21trader
13-10-12, 15:13
Of course can! One whole afternoon so many things can happen. E.g. terrorist attack and stock market panic selling, ur buyer may offer $800k and u will sell too. As long as not black and white, any thing also can.
tio tio- correct correct, see above :)
tio tio- correct correct, see above :)
ur new dp not nice!
$2.26 to $2.7m?? what kind of project can cheong so much in such a few hours?
That is why it is important to have an offical price list like what the people of Hong Kong demanded. WIth the official price list, developer can only vary the discount portion.
This pre-launch preview is something difficult to control. The developer's intent is only to try to guage the response. The strategy is to treat potential clients to a nice buffet and induce them to pre-book before or during the pre-launch sale. The developer than decides the price base on the response during the pre-launch preview. Even than, there is no official price list during the pre-launch.
The govt is supposed to be doing its review and come out with some guidlines on some of this isuues face by consumers.
It is not reasonable to compare developer with individual seller who can at anytime change his/her mind on the price or even decide not to sell at the last minute. Developer is in the business of selling and as such, is subject to sale integrity and transparency just like other retailers including banks, car dealers and hospitals.
The case is like say Ng Teng Fong hospital quoted you $X for an operation and later tell you that the price is now $Y because more people wanting the same operation. Isn't this absurd?
Ura is idiot.
The guideline is only to release pricelist 2 days before launch. It didnt specify afterwards or if developer release in stages
The case is like say Ng Teng Fong hospital quoted you $X for an operation and later tell you that the price is now $Y because more people wanting the same operation. Isn't this absurd?
I believe you haven't been to hospital for quite some time. There are usually additional fees to be paid after discharge.
It is not reasonable to compare developer with individual seller who can at anytime change his/her mind on the price or even decide not to sell at the last minute. Developer is in the business of selling and as such, is subject to sale integrity and transparency just like other retailers including banks, car dealers and hospitals.
The case is like say Ng Teng Fong hospital quoted you $X for an operation and later tell you that the price is now $Y because more people wanting the same operation. Isn't this absurd?
But what if the original quote was a genuine mistake? If you see a bottle of Jack Daniels erroneously marked as 90 cents at Fairprice, do you think you can demand that the supermarket sell it to you at that price? Of course not. Similar scenarios occurred in the past and the common law established that advertisements are not an offer - but an invitation to treat.
When you get a price quote, whether from a developer or a shop, you're actually only getting an invitation to treat and not an offer. It is when you express that you want to purchase the item at the quoted price that an offer is first being made. Then the seller gets to decide whether to accept your offer or to present a counter-offer. A price list, as you suggested, would make no difference as the common law would still regard it as an invitation to treat.
I guess this might come as a surprise to you but bankers, car dealers, hospitals and every other retailer can refuse to sell you any product or service at the price they advertised for. That they do not usually do so does not mean they cannot do so.
I believe you haven't been to hospital for quite some time. There are usually additional fees to be paid after discharge.
Same with buying property wah! there are also additional fees such as legal, duty, tax etc
But what if the original quote was a genuine mistake? If you see a bottle of Jack Daniels erroneously marked as 90 cents at Fairprice, do you think you can demand that the supermarket sell it to you at that price? Of course not. Similar scenarios occurred in the past and the common law established that advertisements are not an offer - but an invitation to treat.
When you get a price quote, whether from a developer or a shop, you're actually only getting an invitation to treat and not an offer. It is when you express that you want to purchase the item at the quoted price that an offer is first being made. Then the seller gets to decide whether to accept your offer or to present a counter-offer. A price list, as you suggested, would make no difference as the common law would still regard it as an invitation to treat.
I guess this might come as a surprise to you but bankers, car dealers, hospitals and every other retailer can refuse to sell you any product or service at the price they advertised for. That they do not usually do so does not mean they cannot do so.
You have just rightly pointed out the problems. Have you just surrendered your rights as a consumer?
Secretariat
14-10-12, 05:42
But what if the original quote was a genuine mistake? If you see a bottle of Jack Daniels erroneously marked as 90 cents at Fairprice, do you think you can demand that the supermarket sell it to you at that price? Of course not. Similar scenarios occurred in the past and the common law established that advertisements are not an offer - but an invitation to treat.
When you get a price quote, whether from a developer or a shop, you're actually only getting an invitation to treat and not an offer. It is when you express that you want to purchase the item at the quoted price that an offer is first being made. Then the seller gets to decide whether to accept your offer or to present a counter-offer. A price list, as you suggested, would make no difference as the common law would still regard it as an invitation to treat.
I guess this might come as a surprise to you but bankers, car dealers, hospitals and every other retailer can refuse to sell you any product or service at the price they advertised for. That they do not usually do so does not mean they cannot do so.
There have precedents established; a pricing mistake can be withdrawn by the offerer, an advertisement is an invitation to treat.
I believe that the context within which the offer is made must be taken into account. We will generally expect that, when dealing with parties like bank, government agency, insurance company, housing developer etc, that these parties exercise great care in situation where a price is offered. A high level of trust that the offer price is genuine, so to speak.
Clearly, in this case of Danie vs FEO, the alleged price of $2.26 mil is an offer and not an invitation to treat because it could lead to a contract, OTP. Moreover, an alleged price increase of $2.7 mil was announced subsequently, further validate the existence of the initial offer of $2.26 mil.
blackjack21trader
14-10-12, 07:15
But what if the original quote was a genuine mistake? If you see a bottle of Jack Daniels erroneously marked as 90 cents at Fairprice, do you think you can demand that the supermarket sell it to you at that price? Of course not. Similar scenarios occurred in the past and the common law established that advertisements are not an offer - but an invitation to treat.
When you get a price quote, whether from a developer or a shop, you're actually only getting an invitation to treat and not an offer. It is when you express that you want to purchase the item at the quoted price that an offer is first being made. Then the seller gets to decide whether to accept your offer or to present a counter-offer. A price list, as you suggested, would make no difference as the common law would still regard it as an invitation to treat.
I guess this might come as a surprise to you but bankers, car dealers, hospitals and every other retailer can refuse to sell you any product or service at the price they advertised for. That they do not usually do so does not mean they cannot do so.
Brother, you are absolutely so right. But I have to agree with bro Leeds also. That developers are a professional business, they are not private sellers who can suka suka go back on their words. Although the naive buyers cannot do anything, it is very bad advertisement for any business for that matter :doh:
blackjack21trader
14-10-12, 07:18
There have precedents established; a pricing mistake can be withdrawn by the offerer, an advertisement is an invitation to treat.
I believe that the context within which the offer is made must be taken into account. We will generally expect that, when dealing with parties like bank, government agency, insurance company, housing developer etc, that these parties exercise great care in situation where a price is offered. A high level of trust that the offer price is genuine, so to speak.
Clearly, in this case of Danie vs FEO, the alleged price of $2.26 mil is an offer and not an invitation to treat because it could lead to a contract, OTP. Moreover, an alleged price increase of $2.7 mil was announced subsequently, further validate the existence of the initial offer of $2.26 mil.
Well said :)
blackjack21trader
14-10-12, 07:21
One of the main reasons why buyers go for new projects and not cheaper resales one, ( unlike in Hong Kong where both the resales and new projects transaction all jalan together hand in hand) ; is that in Singapore, the private sellers are very fickle minded. That pissed off many buyers I think.
blackjack21trader
14-10-12, 07:25
One tactic the private owners like to use here is that they lied that they are overseas, thereby take their own sweet time to reply you and lock you from placing deposit money for other properties you shortlisted.
That is why, always ask the agent if the owner(s) is currently in SIngapore and ready to give you an OTP. otherwise no talk and you go and deposit money for another second best property la ;)
blackjack21trader
14-10-12, 07:29
Another trick is, they will take your deposit but delay in giving you the OTP. Thereby, locking you again !
that is why you must make sure your deposit is to exchange for the OTP on the spot. Otherwise go and look for other property.I think only developers can provide this condition. I hope they are now not trying to get around this also :doh:
i am revealing this to make life difficult for the agents.
One tactic the private owners like to use here is that they lied that they are overseas, thereby take their own sweet time to reply you and lock you from placing deposit money for other properties you shortlisted.
That is why, always ask the agent if the owner(s) is currently in SIngapore and ready to give you an OTP. otherwise no talk and you go and deposit money for another second best property la ;)
You should roughly able to gauge by talkin to the agent. Sometime they also act as double agent 007. Very sneaky industry.
You should roughly able to gauge by talkin to the agent. Sometime they also act as double agent 007. Very sneaky industry.
Fully agree, I got the exact treatment described before. After that, sms kept coming for new aunches.
Secretariat
14-10-12, 08:08
You should roughly able to gauge by talkin to the agent. Sometime they also act as double agent 007. Very sneaky industry.
But 007 is no double agent leh...always flies the Union Jack one. :D
blackjack21trader
14-10-12, 08:20
You should roughly able to gauge by talkin to the agent. Sometime they also act as double agent 007. Very sneaky industry.
yes indeed. another trick is the buyer can actually hide under a nominee. That is, if he spotted a really good property, he will have a "proxy" buyer. Take for example:
He saw a property he really wants, ask the seller but the seller wanna up the price. So they ( agent,buyer,seller ) all have an heated argument.
The buyer retreated into the SHADOW. However, this property is a hiddened DIAMOND, he knows something which the seller does not like an impending enbloc! So he will ask another proxy buyer to view the property. This buyer will wait until the seller got no holding power and ask a lower price or a slightly higher price depending so as to close the deal.
Then, the proxy buyer will make a nominee on the OTP.
Upon exercising the OTP, the real buyer will then put his name on the transaction.
Nothing wrong here legally. But.....you go and think about it what is wrong with this method lor:doh:
blackjack21trader
14-10-12, 08:23
Good la, now I am the enemy of agents, sellers and buyers liao:scared-4:
Good la, now I am the enemy of agents, sellers and buyers liao:scared-4:
Bro, I support your honesty and transparency.
Support you to be MND minister. One vote from me.
Another trick is, they will take your deposit but delay in giving you the OTP. Thereby, locking you again !
that is why you must make sure your deposit is to exchange for the OTP on the spot. Otherwise go and look for other property.I think only developers can provide this condition. I hope they are now not trying to get around this also :doh:
i am revealing this to make life difficult for the agents.
You make the transaction process more transparent. Thank you for showing us the pitfalls
All talk is useless, just always insist on money exchange for black and white.
Oh but cheques can bounce too....
I ever kena bounced cheque from buyer, then next day came another buyer with higher offer haha. All thanks to the bounced buyer.
blackjack21trader
14-10-12, 11:54
All talk is useless, just always insist on money exchange for black and white.
Oh but cheques can bounce too....
I ever kena bounced cheque from buyer, then next day came another buyer with higher offer haha. All thanks to the bounced buyer.
yes, check bounced is a very serious matter, you can then reject to give the OTP and sell to another buyer :)
blackjack21trader
14-10-12, 11:57
btw the way, when u read my post and look at my avatar photo, do you hear Ah Khaw's LOW and CALM voice resounding the post in your head? strange I got leh........think i gotta change avatar photo again la :(
http://www.straitstimes.com/premium/forum-letters/story/property-price-change-developer-replies-20121018
....There was no indication from our staff to the agent that Mr Lim's intended offer at the old price was accepted.
As a reflection of market conditions, price adjustments are made from time to time.
But at all times, our staff are instructed to be careful in communicating any offer that is a variation from approved price lists.
We value all our customers and are arranging to meet Mr Lim to better understand what his agent communicated to him.
the big developer replied in straitstimes,
skali they going to sell Mr Lim another unit with super big discount?
ok... everyone start writing to developer :D
very smart, FEO did not even touch on the price issue
the increase of >$400,000, over $2.2m, if I recalled the number correctly
very smart, FEO did not even touch on the price issue
the increase of >$400,000, over $2.2m, if I recalled the number correctly
very diplomatic taichi reply.
part of overall across the board adjustment plus unspoken...
you mtb by a few hours,
your agent's fault,
but let's see how much discount off the new list price just for you ... call me :D
Secretariat
18-10-12, 08:09
http://www.straitstimes.com/premium/forum-letters/story/property-price-change-developer-replies-20121018
....There was no indication from our staff to the agent that Mr Lim's intended offer at the old price was accepted.
As a reflection of market conditions, price adjustments are made from time to time.
But at all times, our staff are instructed to be careful in communicating any offer that is a variation from approved price lists.
We value all our customers and are arranging to meet Mr Lim to better understand what his agent communicated to him.
the big developer replied in straitstimes,
skali they going to sell Mr Lim another unit with super big discount?
ok... everyone start writing to developer :D
Die die must say it this way one...:D
So my story earlier is the correct version of the event la...hahaha
Die die must say it this way one...:D
So my story earlier is the correct version of the event la...hahaha
so good, can see the past !
can crystal ball the future or not :D
Secretariat
18-10-12, 08:31
so good, can see the past !
can crystal ball the future or not :D
Past anyone can see la...
Future?...Expect a rigorous rebuttal from him, who was goondu enough to bring it to the press in the first place...:doh:
Why can't they publish their prices on a board in the showroom and some website? And like those car dealers indicate specifically when the price is good till. Leave no rooms for dispute.
Just my two-cent worth: FEO is a subsidiary of the Sino Group, one of the leading developers in Hong Kong. The number 1 motto of HK developers is "always earn the maximum of buyers' money".
Some of the following might sound familiar to you:
1) Strategies
- When the market is good, charge the highest prices possible.
- When the market is bad, never lower the price. Give vouchers (from contractors) or keep units for rental to bide time.
2) Tactics
- Marketing: emphasize strongly on marketing, promotion and gimmicks
- Quality: achieve cost leadership by cutting costs from materials, etc.
- Pricing: no transparency on price scheme, no notice on markups, discounts offered on discretion
- Design: Creative layouts that can charge higher psf price (rather than on usable space), e.g. big balconies, loft, etc.
Conclusion: For ordinary property buyer like you and me, if you are dealing with FEO, you can't win.
I've bought two 2nd hand FEO properties before, both from owners bought during launch and selling to me at distressed prices.
Just my two-cent worth: FEO is a subsidiary of the Sino Group, one of the leading developers in Hong Kong. The number 1 motto of HK developers is "always earn the maximum of buyers' money".
Some of the following might sound familiar to you:
1) Strategies
- When the market is good, charge the highest prices possible.
- When the market is bad, never lower the price. Give vouchers (from contractors) or keep units for rental to bide time.
2) Tactics
- Marketing: emphasize strongly on marketing, promotion and gimmicks
- Quality: achieve cost leadership by cutting costs from materials, etc.
- Pricing: no transparency on price scheme, no notice on markups, discounts offered on discretion
- Design: Creative layouts that can charge higher psf price (rather than on usable space), e.g. big balconies, loft, etc.
Conclusion: For ordinary property buyer like you and me, if you are dealing with FEO, you can't win.
I've bought two 2nd hand FEO properties before, both from owners bought during launch and selling to me at distressed prices.
Another golden nugget.
So glad you joined this forum.
Just my two-cent worth: FEO is a subsidiary of the Sino Group, one of the leading developers in Hong Kong. The number 1 motto of HK developers is "always earn the maximum of buyers' money".
Some of the following might sound familiar to you:
1) Strategies
- When the market is good, charge the highest prices possible.
- When the market is bad, never lower the price. Give vouchers (from contractors) or keep units for rental to bide time.
2) Tactics
- Marketing: emphasize strongly on marketing, promotion and gimmicks
- Quality: achieve cost leadership by cutting costs from materials, etc.
- Pricing: no transparency on price scheme, no notice on markups, discounts offered on discretion
- Design: Creative layouts that can charge higher psf price (rather than on usable space), e.g. big balconies, loft, etc.
Conclusion: For ordinary property buyer like you and me, if you are dealing with FEO, you can't win.
I've bought two 2nd hand FEO properties before, both from owners bought during launch and selling to me at distressed prices.
Vip, thanks for your valuable sharings.
Everytime i paid a visit to FEO new launch, I always have this strong urge to buy a unit from them (fortunately vitamin M not in abundance). There seems to be something 'magical' about their showflats and marketing. Same experience from my colleague who was on the verge of buying a seahill soho unit at 1500psf, but come back discuss with us in office then realise it is not that fantastic afterall.
The pleasure is all mine :)
Below is a blog post I've written on a similar subject. Again, I don't expect everyone to agree with me. Read if you are interested in a second opinion about shopping for properties at new launch.
http://propertysoul.com/2011/02/22/why-i-won%e2%80%99t-buy-at-new-launch/
Why I won’t buy at new launch
February 22, 2011
Many Singaporeans, especially 1st time buyers, like to shop at condo new launch. Very often, units are booked with TOP dates a few years down the road.
Not for me!
1) What your deposit means
I know many people have strong ‘belief’ that the price of their unit will increase significantly by TOP.
Honestly, unless you’re quite sure that you’re buying near the bottom; otherwise, who can guarantee what the market will look like a few years from now?
If you’re buying a unit that’s going to be delivered in the future, it implies that you agree with the following:
• You’re willingly to place a 20 to 40 percent deposit to help fund the developer to build the project. You agree that there’s not a single cent of interest/dividend/profit paid to you. You’re also not entitled to enjoy any product/service until TOP.
• You’ll buy the unit and pay the same price no matter what, even if there’s a financial crisis or crash of the property market in between.
After the financial crisis in early 2009, some new launch in Kuala Lumpur only asked for 1 percent payment (and nothing else) until TOP. That sounds very attractive!
But on second thoughts, if the market price drops just 2 percent, the buyer might as well forfeit that 1 percent deposit rather than holding onto a negative asset.
2) What happen when you sell
Another reason why I won’t buy at new launch is that: you’re buying at the same price as everyone else.
Of course, you can get extra 1 or 2 percent discount from various promotions. But do you know that I can easily bargain at 15 to 20 percent off the valuation when times are bad?
And next time when I decide to sell, I have a better margin to play with.
Supposedly your neighbors all buy at $1,000 psf during the launch and now all of you are selling at the market price of $1,200 psf. But I am willing to close the deal at $1,100 psf because, with my purchase price at $800 psf, the profit is good enough to me.
3) What you’ll expect at TOP
Do you have experience collecting the key of your unit from the developer after TOP? Do you find it (the size, outlook, finishing, etc.) somewhat different from what you remember seeing in the showflat or the sales brochure?
Can you make a list of developments where the actual site/unit looks better than what was originally pictured/described in the sales brochure?
It’s tricky when you buy uncompleted projects. The showflats look nice. So do the drawings in the brochures. But remember they are 'artists' impressions only' and showflats are 'for display only'.
Afterall, what you are buying is only based on your trust of what the developers or the agents said at the time of purchase!
buttercarp
18-10-12, 14:31
Hi vip, my parents also had the same thoughts as you and so far the properties they bought, are not from the launch but after the unit had TOP.
I also shared the same view, especially your point number 3.
However in the recent few years (since 2009), because I had that concept, i missed the boat eg the waterfront condos along bedok reservoir, sky @11 and the arte which I was considering.
However in the recent few years (since 2009), because I had that concept, i missed the boat eg the waterfront condos along bedok reservoir, sky @11 and the arte which I was considering.
I think you should wait for at least 5 years from now. See what happen to the market at that time, before you look back and say you've really missed the boat.
Maybe, you'll be like what I've said in my recent post The fear of losing out (http://propertysoul.com/2012/10/08/the-fear-of-losing-out-part-i-cooling-measures/):
But, what happen if missing the boat turns out to be a blessing in disguise when:
- This time round the government cooling measures finally work to cool the market?
- Many ‘borderline’ upgraders and investors can’t fork out the extra cash?
- Frustrated developers and 2nd hand property sellers start slashing prices?
- Unfortunately both buyers and sellers all ‘miss the boat’?
- Property prices come tumbling hereafter?
- Recent buyers are left holding their ‘depreciating assets’ for over 10 years before breakeven (like those who bought in 1996)?
Now, will the regrettable property investor in the Straits Times article, still holding the cheque in his hand – like the taxi driver holding his steering wheel tight while watching the taxi in front of his tragically hit by a speeding Ferrari – exclaim with relief?
“LUCKY ah!”
I think you should wait for at least 5 years from now. See what happen to the market at that time, before you look back and say you've really missed the boat.
Perhaps, u play the game the other way round. Say, 5 years ago, u bot a project launched that time, so what is the position now.
There is no need for u to wait for 5 years, too long. U can easily take those properties launched 5 years ago, and paint the picture now.
5 years ago, One Amber was $700-800, Esta, around there as well
The Seaview around $850...u know the price now
Hi vip, my parents also had the same thoughts as you and so far the properties they bought, are not from the launch but after the unit had TOP.
I also shared the same view, especially your point number 3.
However in the recent few years (since 2009), because I had that concept, i missed the boat eg the waterfront condos along bedok reservoir, sky @11 and the arte which I was considering.
yes, u missed, missed a lot...
so does the thery work? no one knows right. Only Mr Time and Mr Market can tell u
Just my two-cent worth: FEO is a subsidiary of the Sino Group, one of the leading developers in Hong Kong. The number 1 motto of HK developers is "always earn the maximum of buyers' money".
Some of the following might sound familiar to you:
1) Strategies
- When the market is good, charge the highest prices possible.
- When the market is bad, never lower the price. Give vouchers (from contractors) or keep units for rental to bide time.
2) Tactics
- Marketing: emphasize strongly on marketing, promotion and gimmicks
- Quality: achieve cost leadership by cutting costs from materials, etc.
- Pricing: no transparency on price scheme, no notice on markups, discounts offered on discretion
- Design: Creative layouts that can charge higher psf price (rather than on usable space), e.g. big balconies, loft, etc.
Conclusion: For ordinary property buyer like you and me, if you are dealing with FEO, you can't win.
I've bought two 2nd hand FEO properties before, both from owners bought during launch and selling to me at distressed prices.
There is a significant change in the leadership of FEO after the old Mr Ng passed away.
I refused to buy their properties, but now I buy.
Vip, thanks for your valuable sharings.
Everytime i paid a visit to FEO new launch, I always have this strong urge to buy a unit from them (fortunately vitamin M not in abundance). There seems to be something 'magical' about their showflats and marketing. Same experience from my colleague who was on the verge of buying a seahill soho unit at 1500psf, but come back discuss with us in office then realise it is not that fantastic afterall.
In fact, FEO showflats are not ultra impressive, I just grade them above average. How much is the showflat for Thomson Grand and Reflection?
Hi vip, my parents also had the same thoughts as you and so far the properties they bought, are not from the launch but after the unit had TOP.
I also shared the same view, especially your point number 3.
However in the recent few years (since 2009), because I had that concept, i missed the boat eg the waterfront condos along bedok reservoir, sky @11 and the arte which I was considering.
i have come to the realisation that there are many approaches to the market. different people have different reasons to go into the market. it is all about what we want, our current portfolio, how much we can generate, and holding power. i have sited one friend's eg a few posts back in another thread. very useful to brainstorm with a few gurus with different perspectives. i have a couple of personal gurus along with all these gurus in this forum - Thank You !
however i dun think you have missed the boat cos you got into pavilion.
unless you have lots of bullets previously which you did not use then, then you may have missed a couple of small sampans; but no worries, you already boarded the large stable freehold cruiseliner. :cheers4:
buttercarp
18-10-12, 15:16
yes, u missed, missed a lot...
so does the thery work? no one knows right. Only Mr Time and Mr Market can tell u
Since 2009 till now, that theory does not work anymore.
Those who missed the boat are left on the shore with bleeding wounds and when the tide came in, the salt just rubbed on their wounds.
I am sailing.... I am sailing......
In fact, FEO showflats are not ultra impressive, I just grade them above average. How much is the showflat for Thomson Grand and Reflection?
I have no idea on the costs of the showflats for TG and R. I am not interested in TG and i visited the actual units of R.
Neither do i find FEO showflats ultra impressive. Its just my experience that everytime i visit their new launches, i have the strong urge to want to buy a unit from them. But the strong urge only last till i step out of the showflat.
Perhaps its the strong marketing? I am unsure... but if i were to comment on the quality of the showflats, i will vote for The Lush and V@Shenton.
I am sailing.... I am sailing......
ha! i am sure you boarded many boats! :D
are you the face that launched a thousand ships ? :D :D
buttercarp
18-10-12, 15:22
however i dun think you have missed the boat cos you got into pavilion.
unless you have lots of bullets previously which you did not use then, then you may have missed a couple of small sampans; but no worries, you already boarded the large stable freehold cruiseliner. :cheers4:
Just as Laguna has rubbed salt on my wounds, lifeline, you have made my day!
I like the analogy of the cruiseliner :) !
Because I missed the boats previously (was thinking of getting a few small units previously), that's why i decided to take the plunge.
There is only one universal theory in investment, ie
BUY LOW, SELL HIGH
but there are many execution methods, some right and some wrong.
There is no guru is right all the time.
eg, Warren Buffett : never touch internet stocks, is he right or wrong? He is right but also wrong. It depends on timing and which stock.
Buy new launches or completed completed, both have its own merits.
Just as Laguna has rubbed salt on my wounds, lifeline, you have made my day!
I like the analogy of the cruiseliner :) !
Because I missed the boats previously (was thinking of getting a few small units previously), that's why i decided to take the plunge.
My little sweet Butter..at least u took ACTION, and ur as happy as I am.
So, I still make your day....
Just as Laguna has rubbed salt on my wounds, lifeline, you have made my day!
I like the analogy of the cruiseliner :) !
Because I missed the boats previously (was thinking of getting a few small units previously), that's why i decided to take the plunge.
pavilion latest aiming for 2.7mil already. :cheers5:
prob will take a breather from the latest cm to consolidate before marching further to 3.
must keep your current, unless you can find a good new central bargain replacement to change portfolio whilst those mtb still continue to keep away and still stuck in denial/anger phase.
Just as Laguna has rubbed salt on my wounds, lifeline, you have made my day!
I like the analogy of the cruiseliner :) !
Because I missed the boats previously (was thinking of getting a few small units previously), that's why i decided to take the plunge.
Buttercarp sis...
To own a piece of land in singapore is indeed shiok.. u can wash your car with a water hose, experiement your gardens with different plant species or even sun your laundry or beddings freely.
Jus KPO... do you foresee yourself living in the landed till old age? Once your kids got married and shifted out from the house, would the landed be too much for an old couple to take care? Or do you plan to shift back to one of your condos where you have the MCST taking care of the maintenance while you get to enjoy the facilities?
buttercarp
18-10-12, 15:45
Buttercarp sis...
To own a piece of land in singapore is indeed shiok.. u can wash your car with a water hose, experiement your gardens with different plant species or even sun your laundry or beddings freely.
Jus KPO... do you foresee yourself living in the landed till old age? Once your kids got married and shifted out from the house, would the landed be too much for an old couple to take care? Or do you plan to shift back to one of your condos where you have the MCST taking care of the maintenance while you get to enjoy the facilities?
Dunno.... very apprehensive ..... never lived in landed before.
Bot because husband who lived in landed during his childhood wants to go back to landed living although he would have listened to me if I had insisted not too.
Wait for the time to come before making my decision.
if my kids continue to stay with me and they pay rental, then I would probably continue staying.
However in the recent few years (since 2009), because I had that concept, i missed the boat eg the waterfront condos along bedok reservoir, sky @11 and the arte which I was considering.
You missed the boat only if you belong to the group of investor who buy and sell more units within a reasonable period of say 10-year. They also usually have the resources at their disposal.
You do not miss the boat if you belong to the other group of investor who buy just 1 or 2 units within the same time frame. You still have time to buy. Just need to be patience.
Very often, the second group of investor has no patience and usually this group of people are less seasoned investors.
From reading Vip's blog, I believe Vip belongs to the second group of investor. However, she belongs to the minority within this group who have patience.
buttercarp
18-10-12, 17:36
You missed the boat only if you belong to the group of investor who buy and sell more units within a reasonable period of say 10-year. They also usually have the resources at their disposal.
You do not miss the boat if you belong to the other group of investor who buy just 1 or 2 units within the same time frame. You still have time to buy. Just need to be patience.
Very often, the second group of investor has no patience and usually this group of people are less seasoned investors.
From reading Vip's blog, I believe Vip belongs to the second group of investor. However, she belongs to the minority within this group who have patience.
Actually I wanted to buy 2 extra units (small ones) just in case my children need them in future. I don't intend to sell when I buy unless it is very necessary. So, had I bought earlier, I would have got it cheaper and without the ABSD.
Yup, so patience is the word.
Property developer's reply underscores need for greater regulation and oversight
FAR East Organization's reply ("Property price change: Developer replies"; last Thursday) to my letter ("Regulate developers too";
Oct 13) reinforces my original call for greater regulation and oversight of developers.
There are several reasons to support the call for greater regulation:
First, the need for accurate and time-sensitive information.
Many parties are involved in developer property transactions and differing viewpoints may result from discussions.
When developers engage the services of external agents, further complications may arise, as my case attests.
Regulatory guidance should be introduced in areas regarding the dissemination of time-sensitive critical information and the prevention of misunderstandings in transmitting such information.
Second, knowledge of critical market conditions.
Developers such as Far East Organization have their fingers on the pulse of the market and are in a position to make price adjustments to reflect market conditions.
Such vital information should be made available to the authorities like the Urban Redevelopment Authority (URA) or Ministry of National Development, to allow greater insight and understanding of Singapore's property market from a ground-up perspective.
Current information tools tend to veer towards post-transaction information and, in an environment where market conditions require immediate responses, the time lapses involved with current tools may degrade the value of data.
For example, in my case, a market condition that triggered an immediate price increase from $2.26 million to $2.7 million may be a cause of significant concern for the authorities.
Furthermore, as Far East pointed out, the market conditions triggered an immediate price increase not only to my desired unit but also to several others.
As a layman, it seems like an anomaly could cause such immediate reactions.
Such information is of critical importance to the ministry, URA and the Monetary Authority of Singapore when shaping Singapore's property industry and economy as a whole.
Perhaps a real-time registry run by a governing body like the URA should be set up, whereby existing properties put up for sale by developers are listed with clear details on vital information.
Also, regulated price adjustments akin to those concerning new launches should be implemented to prevent similar events from taking place.
And price adjustments must require a 48-hour notice period that can be implemented only at the start of the business day.
Danie Lim
Copyright © 2012 Singapore Press Holdings. All rights reserved.
do u know how much is the commission she missed ?
$375 only
:eek:....wow thats almost what i pay my maid for a months work...:eek:
moral of story sell houses better than being a maid...:D
Property developer's reply underscores need for greater regulation and oversight
FAR East Organization's reply ("Property price change: Developer replies"; last Thursday) to my letter ("Regulate developers too";
Oct 13) reinforces my original call for greater regulation and oversight of developers.
There are several reasons to support the call for greater regulation:
First, the need for accurate and time-sensitive information.
Many parties are involved in developer property transactions and differing viewpoints may result from discussions.
When developers engage the services of external agents, further complications may arise, as my case attests.
Regulatory guidance should be introduced in areas regarding the dissemination of time-sensitive critical information and the prevention of misunderstandings in transmitting such information.
Second, knowledge of critical market conditions.
Developers such as Far East Organization have their fingers on the pulse of the market and are in a position to make price adjustments to reflect market conditions.
Such vital information should be made available to the authorities like the Urban Redevelopment Authority (URA) or Ministry of National Development, to allow greater insight and understanding of Singapore's property market from a ground-up perspective.
Current information tools tend to veer towards post-transaction information and, in an environment where market conditions require immediate responses, the time lapses involved with current tools may degrade the value of data.
For example, in my case, a market condition that triggered an immediate price increase from $2.26 million to $2.7 million may be a cause of significant concern for the authorities.
Furthermore, as Far East pointed out, the market conditions triggered an immediate price increase not only to my desired unit but also to several others.
As a layman, it seems like an anomaly could cause such immediate reactions.
Such information is of critical importance to the ministry, URA and the Monetary Authority of Singapore when shaping Singapore's property industry and economy as a whole.
Perhaps a real-time registry run by a governing body like the URA should be set up, whereby existing properties put up for sale by developers are listed with clear details on vital information.
Also, regulated price adjustments akin to those concerning new launches should be implemented to prevent similar events from taking place.
And price adjustments must require a 48-hour notice period that can be implemented only at the start of the business day.
Danie Lim
Copyright © 2012 Singapore Press Holdings. All rights reserved.
I hate to think that if I was offered at 2.26, n the agent tells me price hike soon going for 2.7, that I will believe him / her. I will probably be in the MTB cat. Like the article. Seems too far fetch to jump few hundred K.
Just my two-cent worth: FEO is a subsidiary of the Sino Group, one of the leading developers in Hong Kong. The number 1 motto of HK developers is "always earn the maximum of buyers' money".
Some of the following might sound familiar to you:
1) Strategies
- When the market is good, charge the highest prices possible.
- When the market is bad, never lower the price. Give vouchers (from contractors) or keep units for rental to bide time.
2) Tactics
- Marketing: emphasize strongly on marketing, promotion and gimmicks
- Quality: achieve cost leadership by cutting costs from materials, etc.
- Pricing: no transparency on price scheme, no notice on markups, discounts offered on discretion
- Design: Creative layouts that can charge higher psf price (rather than on usable space), e.g. big balconies, loft, etc.
Conclusion: For ordinary property buyer like you and me, if you are dealing with FEO, you can't win.
I've bought two 2nd hand FEO properties before, both from owners bought during launch and selling to me at distressed prices.
all is business!
:o
I missed the days (just a few years back) when all developers distributed sales brochures together with the price list of all units at the showflats. Only the discount levels in the price list changes over time.
This is called price transparency - a basic respect to customers paying few hundred thousands to millions to buy their homes.
In many western countries, price discrimination (or price differentiation) with the same supplier presenting/selling the same product/service at different prices to different customers are strictly illegal and the companies will be dealt with by law.
Singapore is a developed country too. I feel very sad that the rights and interests of Singaporeans buying 1st hand private properties are not protected.
Developers are allowed to hide details in unit prices, launch phases, actual layout, etc. while buyers are obliged to pay deposits and progressive payments no matter what they are offered. This is based on unequal footings where buyers are left signing contracts at their own risk.
The Straits Times
www.straitstimes.com
Published on Nov 01, 2012
A different measure needed to stop developers from artificially stifling supply
WITH nearly half of the 100,000 new private properties in the pipeline remaining unsold, the next round of cooling measures must be calibrated to mitigate the risk of oversupply ("Coming up: Over 100,000 housing units"; Tuesday).
Are developers hoarding units, hoping to achieve higher prices to maximise profits, which in turn causes price hikes on an artificially low supply? No amount of land sales will curb an artificially low supply.
A more effective measure is required apart from a developer's stamp duty. This could take the form of a progressive tax based on a developer's unreleased units, on top of the winning bid when participating in government land sales.This will prevent developers from over-stretching themselves and mitigate the risk to their balance sheets upon recessionary pressures.
Heng Ngee Hai
Copyright © 2012 Singapore Press Holdings. All rights reserved.
buttercarp
01-11-12, 10:50
I wonder whether if developer keeps unit but rents it out, is that considered hoarding?
So next round of CM is coming.....:scared-3: soon?
If they target developers, then will buyers bear the brunt of it as well?
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.2 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.