View Full Version : PES & Roof Terrace to be treated as GFA
d) Private enclosed spaces and private roof terraces will be treated as gross floor area (GFA). The GFA of such spaces in non-landed residential developments, including ECs, will be counted as part of the ‘bonus’ GFA of a residential development and subject to payment of charges. This is in line with the treatment of balconies under URA’s current guidelines. Details of this measure are at www.ura.gov.sg/circulars/text/dc13-01.htm.
What do you all think about this CM? Will existing units, and those developments already launched, with PES & RT go up or down in $ as a result of this new ruling?
My thoughts are:
- Developers can still get 10% "bonus" GFA, but no longer FOC; must now pay development charge
- However, as it's still "bonus" (otherwise, they only have the "standard" GFA), developers might as well develop them and charge for them; except that they must now price in a higher profit as it's no longer FOC
- Which means that units with PES and RT should be selling on a psf basis higher than what developers used to sell them at (generally quite a bit lower than the "normal" units); especially now that the new guidelines seem to indicate that they can be covered, depending on building height, though not enclosed
- And this leads me to conclude that on a whole, units with PES and RT should go up in $psf, particularly existing development or those already launched
Or if developers decide that since they can't use their "free" space to increase profits anymore, they might not bother building them. Which means existing units with PES and RT would become rarer. Again potentially leading to higher $psf due to lack of supply :confused:
Interested to hear the thoughts of the gurus here...
What do you all think about this CM? Will existing units, and those developments already launched, with PES & RT go up or down in $ as a result of this new ruling?
My thoughts are:
- Developers can still get 10% "bonus" GFA, but no longer FOC; must now pay development charge
- However, as it's still "bonus" (otherwise, they only have the "standard" GFA), developers might as well develop them and charge for them; except that they must now price in a higher profit as it's no longer FOC
- Which means that units with PES and RT should be selling on a psf basis higher than what developers used to sell them at (generally quite a bit lower than the "normal" units); especially now that the new guidelines seem to indicate that they can be covered, depending on building height, though not enclosed
- And this leads me to conclude that on a whole, units with PES and RT should go up in $psf, particularly existing development or those already launched
Or if developers decide that since they can't use their "free" space to increase profits anymore, they might not bother building them. Which means existing units with PES and RT would become rarer. Again potentially leading to higher $psf due to lack of supply :confused:
Interested to hear the thoughts of the gurus here...
I think developers are already charging a lot for PES for PC in recent 1-2 years, my sense is about 60-70% of normal psf. Going forward, PES and RT will shrink to make them more affordable to buyers. This ruling will enhance the value of existing or BUC units with PES and RT more.
adrianmtsg
12-01-13, 05:08
Excellent news! i was just rejected by MCST to make cover for my PES area.
if psf is higher for PES and RT, congrats to all who own them😃
Excellent news! i was just rejected by MCST to make cover for my PES area.
Does the new rulling affect current PES and those signed S&P but not TOP yet?
Developers will not build big PES and RT for time being.
They may slowly include a few such units in their new launches but priced almost the same psf as other units to test the demand for it.
Buyers particularly looking for such units will have to turn to resale market.
Looks like the government has inadvertently made the buyer of that 4000+ sf CityLife penthouse an even bigger winner...
And if developers don't raise the prices of their existing stock of units with PES and RT for sale, may be a good time to look at them to mitigate the new ABSD :p
adrianmtsg
12-01-13, 08:34
For current owner, many mcst does not permit cover over PES/RT area. Now they can. That will mean bigger live in area for this unit.
For developer and en-bloc buyer, that means higher premium with increase in DC. This eventually will pass on to house buyer.
Does the new rulling affect current PES and those signed S&P but not TOP yet?
adrianmtsg
12-01-13, 08:36
a lucky bastard. But i think only 10% of total space can be covered. Still, good buy for a 4000+ sqft unit, i think.
Looks like the government has inadvertently made the buyer of that 4000+ sf CityLife penthouse an even bigger winner...
And if developers don't raise the prices of their existing stock of units with PES and RT for sale, may be a good time to look at them to mitigate the new ABSD :p
Where did they say that PES and RT space can be covered up?
For current owner, many mcst does not permit cover over PES/RT area. Now they can. That will mean bigger live in area for this unit.
For developer and en-bloc buyer, that means higher premium with increase in DC. This eventually will pass on to house buyer.
Where did they say that PES and RT space can be covered up?
Says it here http://www.ura.gov.sg/circulars/text/dc13-01app1.pdf
Depending on how the unit is like, looks like can cover the top of whole PES and RT; Or at least a large part of it
Says it here http://www.ura.gov.sg/circulars/text/dc13-01app1.pdf
Depending on how the unit is like, looks like can cover the top of whole PES and RT; Or at least a large part of it
How abt balcony? Can be covered up too?
Just by reading all the restrictions, you will know the sizes of the coverage of the PES. :D
Says it here http://www.ura.gov.sg/circulars/text/dc13-01app1.pdf
Depending on how the unit is like, looks like can cover the top of whole PES and RT; Or at least a large part of it
proud owner
12-01-13, 09:03
From my understanding, One can build a cover for open RT.
Building a cover does not change the GFA. As long as one does not build an enclosed space, to make it a ROOM , then GFA doesn't change.
If it isn't a room, it does not INcrease live in space. But a mere shelter. So how does existing RT worth more now?
If you have a unit say 2000 sqft. Live in 1000 sqft + RT 1000 sqft.
In the past developer sells the normal unit at say 1000 psf, those PH unit would be 750 psf.
( (1000 psf x 1000 sqft) + ( 500 psf x 1000 sqft) ) / 2000
That's why PH with RT has lower psf than normal unit. And that 500 psf they charged you on that 1000 sqft of RT is Pure profit.
Now going forward, knowing now that they are not to charge you on those empty open space, how does existing owner of such space stand to gain? When u have already paid for it when it's supposed to be free?
Unless a buyer like open space, who would want to pay for a space that they now know is not chargeable?
The reasons why MCST doesn't allow you to build a cover:
For newly top condo, it spoils the facade
For older condos, even if u want to pay DC, you may not be allowed to turn RT into a room because the GFA already fully utilized.
Between 2006 to yesterday, developers have reaped in huge profit selling you the free space at half the psf of normal unit. And fully utilized the GFA.
Only those super old condos 20 30 yr old that have not fully utilized the GFA.
That's why you can find in those condo, some owner even covered up the whole balcony to become part of there living room, as they have spare GFA.
Those older condo are the one that has potential to be enbloc cos developer can make use of the unused GFA to build more units.
So you think going forward , would those big PH with humongous RT be worth more? When you can't convert it into a fully enclosed room and you are not supposed to charge for it. Will these still worth more?
Reading the release, it seems that PES and RT are now taken in as part of the bonus GFA which is accorded to balconies. This means that going forward developers have to make a call whether to build balconies/PES or RT as part of the allowed bonus GFA. I think it will boil down to whichever is the cheapest in terms of construction costs or whatever potential buyers will want to see in their unit.
As for the covers, so far, ther release only talk about new develeopments under planning. It doesn't seem to indicate whether the covers are allowed for exisitng completed developments. Anyone can shed a light on it?
a lucky bastard. But i think only 10% of total space can be covered. Still, good buy for a 4000+ sqft unit, i think.
The 10% should have already been used up by other units with sheltered balconies. Doubt you can cover additional RT or PES unless you have some bonus GFA unused.
The 10% should have already been used up by other units with sheltered balconies. Doubt you can cover additional RT or PES unless you have some bonus GFA unused.
Think for new condos under planning, you can cover all the PES and RT in the condo since under the new rulings, the PES/RT have already been taken into account in the 10% bonus GFA. However for PES, there is a setback of 3m and for RT, there is some setback restrictions depending on the height and the roof angle.
However, there is nothing mentioned about existing condos so I am not too sure whether it applies because the PES and RT will definitely exceed the 10% bonus which would have been used up for the balconies.
Going forward, I think we will see either one or even two of the 3 (balcony/PES/RT)being eliminated completely or shrink significantly as 10% is not much.
From my understanding, One can build a cover for open RT.
Building a cover does not change the GFA. As long as one does not build an enclosed space, to make it a ROOM , then GFA doesn't change.
If it isn't a room, it does not INcrease live in space. But a mere shelter. So how does existing RT worth more now?
If you have a unit say 2000 sqft. Live in 1000 sqft + RT 1000 sqft.
In the past developer sells the normal unit at say 1000 psf, those PH unit would be 750 psf.
( (1000 psf x 1000 sqft) + ( 500 psf x 1000 sqft) ) / 2000
That's why PH with RT has lower psf than normal unit. And that 500 psf they charged you on that 1000 sqft of RT is Pure profit.
Now going forward, knowing now that they are not to charge you on those empty open space, how does existing owner of such space stand to gain? When u have already paid for it when it's supposed to be free?
Unless a buyer like open space, who would want to pay for a space that they now know is not chargeable?
The reasons why MCST doesn't allow you to build a cover:
For newly top condo, it spoils the facade
For older condos, even if u want to pay DC, you may not be allowed to turn RT into a room because the GFA already fully utilized.
Between 2006 to yesterday, developers have reaped in huge profit selling you the free space at half the psf of normal unit. And fully utilized the GFA.
Only those super old condos 20 30 yr old that have not fully utilized the GFA.
That's why you can find in those condo, some owner even covered up the whole balcony to become part of there living room, as they have spare GFA.
Those older condo are the one that has potential to be enbloc cos developer can make use of the unused GFA to build more units.
So you think going forward , would those big PH with humongous RT be worth more? When you can't convert it into a fully enclosed room and you are not supposed to charge for it. Will these still worth more?
Good points, but that's kinda what I'm trying to understand; was PES and RT considered part of bonus GFA previously? Can't seem to find this info.
I thought they were and if so, the only (and very significant) difference now is that development charges will be incurred for new developments, whereas it was free to the developers previously.
From Appendix 1: "All PES and private roof terraces within flat and condominium developments, including executive condominiums, will now be computed as GFA. To qualify under the bonus GFA, capped at 10% beyond the Master Plan allowable GPR, they will need to comply with the following guidelines"
The way I intepret this is that developers can provide PES and RT as part of GFA (which I think is unlikely), or provide them as part of bonus GFA, subject to the guidelines. Either way, they incur development charges, forcing them to have to sell higher than they used to.
And if there is demand from new buyers (I guess for people who like open spaces; with covers on RT, you can put dining sets, pool tables, massage chairs, etc. :D still very usable), the price should go up as the developers have to recoup. Following your example, maybe instead of 750 psf, they now charge 850psf, but not 1000psf? Or if there is no demand from new buyers, existing developments or BUC units become rarer, and so still leading to higher $psf (comparative to what they bought at) in future
proud owner
12-01-13, 09:54
Think for new condos under planning, you can cover all the PES and RT in the condo since under the new rulings, the PES/RT have already been taken into account in the 10% bonus GFA. However for PES, there is a setback of 3m and for RT, there is some setback restrictions depending on the height and the roof angle.
However, there is nothing mentioned about existing condos so I am not too sure whether it applies because the PES and RT will definitely exceed the 10% bonus which would have been used up for the balconies.
Going forward, I think we will see either one or even two of the 3 (balcony/PES/RT)being eliminated completely or shrink significantly as 10% is not much.
Almost every balcony has a shelter.
So the 10 pct already used up
Nothing left for RT...
Agree that going forth, all these 3 will shrink significantly
If prices of existing units with RT were to go up, it's only becos they are getting rare.
Then again, since can't convert to a room, and our weather so freaking hot, what use is the RT during the day? Even at night, it takes a while for it to cool down before you can walk out bare foot
Put a lot of trees to create your own shade lah
sigh..... this is such a pain.
proud owner
12-01-13, 10:18
sigh..... this is such a pain.
I can only say huge roof terrace will be a rarity.
Whether or not it's price will go up I can't say
But it will remain as a RT, and cannot be converted into a room
Will future buyers of of such resale unit willing to pay for that space which all now know was Free of charge?
Almost every balcony has a shelter.
So the 10 pct already used up
Nothing left for RT...
Agree that going forth, all these 3 will shrink significantly
If prices of existing units with RT were to go up, it's only becos they are getting rare.
Then again, since can't convert to a room, and our weather so freaking hot, what use is the RT during the day? Even at night, it takes a while for it to cool down before you can walk out bare foot
Put a lot of trees to create your own shade lah
Let me cite an example.
Before measures:
GFA of condo A = 100,000sf
Bonus 10% allowed for balconies = 10,000sf
PES and RT = not counted in - Developers can add in as many as they want subject to building guidelines and planning approval
After measures:
GFS of condo A= 100,000sf
Balconies+RT+PES cannot exceed 10,000sf
All the balconies+PES+RT can be covered with a shelter since they will not exceeed 10% but cannot be enclosed and shelters will be subject to setback regulations.
For existing condos/apts, not too sure whether this will apply but seems kinda slim as you have rightly pointed up, all the balconies would have been sheltered already.
You are also right in that RT/PES may become a rare commodity depending on what buyers are looking for. Think developers will adjust according to what they think market will be willing to pay for since they only have 10% to play with.
propertychap
12-01-13, 10:28
current units with pes and rt will become more valuable
For those who appreciate PES and RT, they will still go for it as long the overall psf is lower than other units.
Those who dislike it, they will never pay for it.
Developers will stop building units with huge PES and RT. No buyers are willing to pay similar psf for outdoor space.
It is exactly the same scenerio when planter box and baywindows loopholes was plugged. Developers stop building it. Nobody appreciate planter box and baywindows. However, there are some ground floor PES lovers or RT lovers.
I m also a PES and RT lover.
a bit unfair rite if existing ppties cannot cover up.
I think partial covering up to the stated specs is allowed, coz not turned into rooms and thus will not affect GFA limit.
So I guess my conclusion is:
1. Balcony/PES/RT will be smaller in future developments, or there will be less units with sizeable balcony/PES/RT (all to keep within the 10% bonus GFA)
2. Existing units with large balcony/PES/RT will become rarer; whether price will go up or not depends on people's willingness to pay
I guess I belong to the group who's willing to pay as long as there's still a significant difference between such units and the normal units :cool:
I m also a PES and RT lover.
a bit unfair rite if existing ppties cannot cover up.
I think partial covering up to the stated specs is allowed, coz not turned into rooms and thus will not affect GFA limit.
Covered RT will block view of other RT unit, not easy to implement
I can only say huge roof terrace will be a rarity.
Whether or not it's price will go up I can't say
But it will remain as a RT, and cannot be converted into a room
Will future buyers of of such resale unit willing to pay for that space which all now know was Free of charge?
I don't quite understand what you mean by free of charge.
I thought this new ruling means the RT will be included in the GFA. This is to primarily prevent developers from capitalising/abusing the bonus GFA catered, getting it for free but making money by selling it to the home buyer.
If anything this will make properties with RT/PES even more sought after, now that they are "liberated" and accounted. They should rightfully cost more.
So I guess my conclusion is:
1. Balcony/PES/RT will be smaller in future developments, or there will be less units with sizeable balcony/PES/RT (all to keep within the 10% bonus GFA)
2. Existing units with large balcony/PES/RT will become rarer; whether price will go up or not depends on people's willingness to pay
I guess I belong to the group who's willing to pay as long as there's still a significant difference between such units and the normal units :cool:
There is still BCA and the MC to contend with before the PES/RT can be covered up. But the prspects are good with the MC if there are no jealous neighbours.
This is a good ruling. In land-scarce Singapore, every tiny bit of space should be put to good use.
NorthernStar
12-01-13, 12:35
I don't quite understand what you mean by free of charge.
I thought this new ruling means the RT will be included in the GFA. This is to primarily prevent developers from capitalising/abusing the bonus GFA catered, getting it for free but making money by selling it to the home buyer.
If anything, this will make properties with RT/PES even more sought after now they "liberated" and accounted.
Proud_owner referring to old developments... before cm7, these area are free of charge. if next time, when a new buyer come across these pes or rt, how will it be calculated? if next time, there is enbloc opportunity, what will be the calculated the unit's size of those free pes, rt unit as they are not calculated as GFA before cm7? of course development after cm7 will not have this confusion.
Proud_owner referring to old developments... before cm7, these area are free of charge. if next time, when a new buyer come across these pes or rt, how will it be calculated? if next time, there is enblocked opportunity, what will be the calculated the unit's size of those free pes, rt unit as they are not calculated as GFA before cm7? of course development after cm7 will not have this confusion.
OIC... thanks
Which is why I am curious why @proudowner is asking "Will future buyers of of such resale unit willing to pay for that space which all now know was Free of charge?"
I thought buyers will now be more willing to pay for the space now that CM7 has plugged this loophole that was originally intended for curbing developers. making the space no longer free.
Just wondering if I am missing something here.
Got this from a forum. There are obviously legal ways and approved by URA for Roof terraces without incurring more GFA. So, I believe if you landscape and do up your roof terraces nicely for your own usage and later when you resell, the buyer can see and feel the landscape and ambience(do it at night). Then obviously price will be more expensive. For developers, if they are now going to sell higher price RT, then obviuosly there will be more thoughts into how to landscape and roof it making it very very conducive for the buyers ot pay the asking price.
Anyway, at the current momemnt, it seems the stumbling block is the MCST who wants to maintain facade of the building. URA will more likely approve the roofing now that it is becoming more commonplace.
If I recall my previous projects correctly, the formal process of constructing a roof terrace is as follows.
1. MCST Approval
Approval must be sought from MCST to construct as the roof top terrace may impact the external facade or building outlook.
2. URA (http://www.ura.gov.s...yproperty.htm#4)
As the strata title locks in the GFA of your unit, any roof terrace should not incur an increase in GFA.
There are several ways of avoiding the increase in GFA.
a. install a open to sky roof trellis with a retractable awning over it.
b. Construct a roof terrace butting against a wall to a maximum of 2m overhang.
c. Construct a 4mx4m covered pavillion on the basis that 2m overhang from edge of roof to wall for roof terraces are exempt from GFA. Therefore a 4mx4m covered pavillion is similar.
d. cbuy an umbrella.
Of course, items (a), (b) or © will require URA submission by the Architect and is subject to approval from the Planner on a case by case basis.
Alternative if the Condo development has GFA to spare, (highly unlikely), you can apply to purchase it from MCST and revise your strata title.
3. BCA
A roof terrace is defined by BCA as "Building works carried out for or in connection with any single storey trellis, pergola, shelter, gazebo and the like." Thus no submission is required.
Got this from a forum. There are obviously legal ways and approved by URA for Roof terraces without incurring more GFA. So, I believe if you landscape and do up your roof terraces nicely for your own usage and later when you resell, the buyer can see and feel the landscape and ambience(do it at night). Then obviously price will be more expensive. For developers, if they are now going to sell higher price RT, then obviuosly there will be more thoughts into how to landscape and roof it making it very very conducive for the buyers ot pay the asking price.
Anyway, at the current momemnt, it seems the stumbling block is the MCST who wants to maintain facade of the building. URA will more likely approve the roofing now that it is becoming more commonplace.
Yep... the MC is an obstacle, probably the biggest. Envious residents may put up roadblocks.
URA sets the ruling but the structures are regulated by BCA. So that is another obstacle.
This is my take - proud_owner bro pls come in and correct me if i am wrong.
I think PHs as we know it will cease to exist. Today every top floor unit is slapped on with a roof terrace and sold as penthouse. Tomorrow, top floor units will simply be top floor units.
PHs will then take the characteristics common in most parts of the world:
- exceptionally high ceilings
- large floor plate
- top floor of a skyscraper, not 5 storey apartments in tk kurau type (unless dev is super luxe)
- unsurpassed views
- other privacy features
- they will not be discounted in the traditional sense where Rt is 50% psf. they may even be priced at a premium due to view etc, mitigated only by the large floor plate
instead of 20 penthouses in a 600unit development, there will only be a smarttering. Roof terraces or large balconies may include landscaping and cover structures, provided by the developers - and will be part of selling a lifestyle. For efficiency, i believe larger PES on the same level will be more dominant than two storey with RT. We will no longer see 1 or 2 bedroom 'penthouses' with roof terraces. Even 3 bedders might be a stretch.
for 5 storey condopartments, you will see more communal gardens and facilities on the roof - which is the policy intent.
Unless yesterday's PH has the above characteristics, i believe PHs without them will be increasingly difficult to sell, unless renovated in such a way that piques a buyers interest. but i doubt it. Those that have the above characteristics - like PHs in the Sail, MBS, MBR and others - will attract a small but price inelastic market in sophisticated PH buyers looking for the prestige and 'landed in the sky' feeling.
Although i am not one of them, i dare say that yesterday's PH buyers with the above characteristics will huat, especially if they bought the PES at 50% disc or more. Over time esp with new PH characteristics such psf variances will be zero summed. Ceteris paribus as the new measures is still anybody's guess.
I am not too concerned about RT covering restrictions as therenain't nothing a good landscaper can't fix - eg raintrees in a pot:). the more ID technology advances, the more possibilities there can be.
Developer's profit margin thinned after baywindow, planter box and now pes/rt free form of GFA are gone.
This may result in higher psf or lower land bids going forward.
After developers stop building baywindows and planter box, those existing homes with such features drop in price?
I don't quite understand what you mean by free of charge.
I thought this new ruling means the RT will be included in the GFA. This is to primarily prevent developers from capitalising/abusing the bonus GFA catered, getting it for free but making money by selling it to the home buyer.
If anything this will make properties with RT/PES even more sought after, now that they are "liberated" and accounted. They should rightfully cost more.
Agree.
Before this ruling, RT is not "free". Price of a PH includes the value of this RT for private use.
A properly designed RT will become more valuable.
Agree.
Before this ruling, RT is not "free". Price of a PH includes the value of this RT for private use.
A properly designed RT will become more valuable.
so everything will be more efficient, that'll probably moderate their land bids since there isn't this loophole anymore.
proud owner
12-01-13, 21:32
I don't quite understand what you mean by free of charge.
I thought this new ruling means the RT will be included in the GFA. This is to primarily prevent developers from capitalising/abusing the bonus GFA catered, getting it for free but making money by selling it to the home buyer.
If anything this will make properties with RT/PES even more sought after, now that they are "liberated" and accounted. They should rightfully cost more.
For explanation sake
Say the GFA is 200,000 sqft..
Of which developer will pay govt for 150,000 sqft to build actual units..
Govt Gives 50,000 sqft to developer FOC for use, as garden, walkway, Roof Garden etc... Developers are allowed to use 10 pct of this 50,000 sqft as pay of the actual unit like balcony PES and RT
But developers from 2004 ish onwards til today, have been selling that 50,000 sqft of free GFA to PH buyers. Or unit with which balcony
The free GFA was a gift to developer build something that All residents of the condo to enjoy, instead only those few units with RT had it...
That's what I meant IT was free but developer sold to PH buyers
This is all from developer perspective. Of course they profited from it. But as a buyer of such units, what he gets is a private terrace with a price on it. The value can only go up not down, all else being equal, as there is no more supply.
For explanation sake
Say the GFA is 200,000 sqft..
Of which developer will pay govt for 150,000 sqft to build actual units..
Govt Gives 50,000 sqft to developer FOC for use, as garden, walkway, Roof Garden etc... Developers are allowed to use 10 pct of this 50,000 sqft as pay of the actual unit like balcony PES and RT
But developers from 2004 ish onwards til today, have been selling that 50,000 sqft of free GFA to PH buyers. Or unit with which balcony
The free GFA was a gift to developer build something that All residents of the condo to enjoy, instead only those few units with RT had it...
That's what I meant IT was free but developer sold to PH buyers
Yes .... thanks I got that part.
Its this statement that got me puzzled.
Will future buyers of of such resale unit willing to pay for that space which all now know was Free of charge?
In my mind, why would future buyers be not willing to pay for the space? It should be transparent to them whether the space was originally free or not.
With CM7, people are now even more willing to pay for that space. Again, it doesn't matter whether the developer (or resale house owner) got it free or not.
Actually my concern with this policy change on PES/RT is its applicabilty on existing units... ie. units already built up.
The way it is worded seems to imply that it does not apply to existing units but only to developing or yet to be developed units. For example, it seems to imply that the developer designs the covers but the owner reserves the right install.
extracted from appendix 1
Covers
a. Coverings can be allowed on private RTs. To avoid ad-hoc coverings of private RTs by individual owners downstream, covers are to be designed upfront to be well integrated with the overall design of the development and approved as part of the development application process. Developers can propose a single cover design, or a few designs for the buyers to choose from.
This would be impossible for properties that has already been developed since the developer would not have made such provisions. Can a homeowner the design his own?... of course subject to MCST's approval.
For current owner, many mcst does not permit cover over PES/RT area. Now they can. That will mean bigger live in area for this unit. .
You are totally mistaken. The policy applies to new developments from 12 Jan 2013( whose applications have not been approved) where the PES and RT are counted towards the GFA. For existing and old developments, if the PES and RT were free and not counted towards the GFA under the old rules, then you still CANNOT build any cover over them.
Read carefully...
You are totally mistaken. The policy applies to new developments from 12 Jan 2013 where the PES and RT are counted towards the GFA. For existing and old developments, if the PES and RT were free and not counted towards the GFA under the old rules, then you still CANNOT build any cover over them.
Read carefully...
really? .
You are totally mistaken. The policy applies to new developments from 12 Jan 2013( whose applications have not been approved) where the PES and RT are counted towards the GFA. For existing and old developments, if the PES and RT were free and not counted towards the GFA under the old rules, then you still CANNOT build any cover over them.
Read carefully...
If they build those only to enclose it. Better not to build open RT in the first place.
really? .
Yes. For existing units, if you build the cover, you are effectively increasing the GFA of the development. This will not be allowed since the "additional GFA" was not in the original plans submission nor approved.
For submissions after 12 Jan, the GFA computation would have to include the PES and RT for approval. And since they (PES and RT) form part of the GFA now, covers are allowed, subject to the guidelines provided.
buttercarp
12-01-13, 23:10
Yes. For existing units, if you build the cover, you are effectively increasing the GFA of the development. This will not be allowed since the "additional GFA" was not in the original plans submission nor approved.
For submissions after 12 Jan, the GFA computation would have to include the PES and RT for approval. And since they (PES and RT) form part of the GFA now, covers are allowed, subject to the guidelines provided.
Can build.
But cannot build into a room.
Can build cover but one side must be open.
If they build those only to enclose it. Better not to build open RT in the first place.
Yup. It does not make sense to have a 1,600 sq ft RT and eat into your GFA when you can use that entitlement to build a 4 bedder and make more profit.
Can build.
But cannot build into a room.
Can build cover but one side must be open.
For existing developments, old rules still spply i.e. Seek URA approval. If plot ratio already built to the maximum, then unlikely approval will be given unless owner pays a development charge.
From URA website.
What must I do if I want to cover the roof terrace or private enclosed space?
Where the roof terrace or private enclosed space is not covered and you wish to cover them (i.e. have a roof over), you must apply to URA for approval.
There are certain planning considerations that URA will make when processing your application. If the subject property has already been developed to its maximum plot ratio allowed, URA is unlikely to support the application to cover up the roof terrace or private enclosed space. In situations where URA allows the application that is above the plot ratio control, the owner may have to pay development charge.
Development charge is a levy paid on a development that exceeds the approved plot ratio control. There is a fixed formula for the calculation of the charge. The fees are reviewed every six months to keep in pace with market changes. Click here for more information.
To know more about how to obtain approval from URA, click here.
adrianmtsg
13-01-13, 06:02
Which part of the circular says development before 12/1/13 cannot build cover?
You are totally mistaken. The policy applies to new developments from 12 Jan 2013( whose applications have not been approved) where the PES and RT are counted towards the GFA. For existing and old developments, if the PES and RT were free and not counted towards the GFA under the old rules, then you still CANNOT build any cover over them.
Read carefully...
Tony Blair
13-01-13, 11:44
If 51% say can then who is to stop them.Just build lah.Dont ask too much.
I find roof terrace a little hard to enjoy in our climate. Half of the year it is cooking hot.
NorthernStar
13-01-13, 14:05
Which part of the circular says development before 12/1/13 cannot build cover?
Section 12 in ura circulars stated new regulation apply to new buildings apply after 12 Jan 2013.
http://www.google.com.sg/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CDQQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ura.gov.sg%2Fcirculars%2Ftext%2Fdc13-01.htm&ei=s1fyUIaBA86nkQWNq4AI&usg=AFQjCNE3dCeRyjpbsNwtRGIpXAPI6H3IwA
The older circular I can find from web about pes is dated 2007. It highlighted that house owners are not able to change the cover as long as the area r not included in the GFA calculation.
http://www.google.com.sg/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CC4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ura.gov.sg%2Fcirculars%2Ftext%2Fdc07-01.pdf&ei=s1fyUIaBA86nkQWNq4AI&usg=AFQjCNFmMOJhI7nqKo1cSOe_SPAAeIk1DQ
I find roof terrace a little hard to enjoy in our climate. Half of the year it is cooking hot.
good for hanging out laundry and drying salted fish ~
NorthernStar
13-01-13, 14:08
Many newly top condo residents asked for covered bbq area. But were rejected due to max GFA reached.
Guidelines are always there until you test it. Seems difficult looking at all the considerations. Even if can have it maybe a small one and may not worth the while.
Which part of the circular says development before 12/1/13 cannot build cover?
buttercarp
13-01-13, 18:50
Which part of the circular says development before 12/1/13 cannot build cover?
By right, if you cover up fully after you get mcst aproval, you have to pay ura cos you have increased the GFA. That was previously.
So now the new projects will have the RT counted in as GFA, does that mean the existing projects with RT will be considered GFA and if the owner builds a room there, he will not incur any extra charges?
good for hanging out laundry and drying salted fish ~
that's true. it's a pretty expensive piece of area to be drying salted fish though.
good for hanging out laundry and drying salted fish ~
Or (God forbid), shark's fin?
buttercarp
13-01-13, 18:56
good for hanging out laundry and drying salted fish ~
If there is no shade in the RT, hanging your laundry there will damage the colour.
I find roof terrace a little hard to enjoy in our climate. Half of the year it is cooking hot.
Angmos will love baking.
One of my PH neighbours have a multigym right at the roof terrace. Free demo for the taller hdb blocks residents right next to it...
so only can dry salted fish then...
Angmos will love baking.
One of my PH neighbours have a multigym right at the roof terrace. Free demo for the taller hdb blocks residents right next to it...
The gym equipment is weather proof?
so only can dry salted fish then...
Saw the news in HK lately about people drying sharks fin... This one more lucrative.
My PES has a roof over it. Don't think I can install binds :tongue3:
By right, if you cover up fully after you get mcst aproval, you have to pay ura cos you have increased the GFA. That was previously.
So now the new projects will have the RT counted in as GFA, does that mean the existing projects with RT will be considered GFA and if the owner builds a room there, he will not incur any extra charges?
That should count towards bonus GFA rather than GFA. Bonus GFA can be sheltered but not covered up like a room.
My PES has a roof over it. Don't think I can install binds :tongue3:
Why cannot install blinds?
Roof terrace is a very nice thing to have. I'm surprised to see so many negative comments here.
I have seen wonderful gardens , landscaping made out of it. One of them featured in home an decor magazine.
I have also seen ang mo partying on it, very nice party under the stars.
One even do outdoor screening of movies.
Why cannot install blinds?
Thought not allow to? Anyone knows?
Roof terrace is a very nice thing to have. I'm surprised to see so many negative comments here.
I have seen wonderful gardens , landscaping made out of it. One of them featured in home an decor magazine.
I have also seen ang mo partying on it, very nice party under the stars.
One even do outdoor screening of movies.
Yes, I like too. Best if comes with jaccuzzi, BBQ pit, koi pond. Shiok ar!
Thought not allow to? Anyone knows?
Should be allowed... was reading some BCA guidelines yesterday. Said that as long as temporary i.e. retractable, will be allowed.
Should be allowed... was reading some BCA guidelines yesterday. Said that as long as temporary i.e. retractable, will be allowed.
ok cool. Then i can install binds and sun bathe at my PES :D
buttercarp
14-01-13, 12:31
Should be allowed... was reading some BCA guidelines yesterday. Said that as long as temporary i.e. retractable, will be allowed.
Now can have full covers over the entire PES.
But developers need not cover the whole thing.
http://www.ura.gov.sg/circulars/text/dc13-01app1.pdf
a. Full covers over the entire PES can be allowed. To avoid ad-hoc coverings of PES by individual owners downstream that could mar the appearance of the development, PES covers are to be designed upfront to be well integrated with the overall design of the development and approved as part of the development application process. Developers can propose a single cover design, or a few designs for the buyers to choose from.
b. However, developers will not need to install the entire cover. They will only need to install a covering of 2m in width from the external wall before selling the units, to ensure that basic protection from killer litter is provided. Homeowners will be given the flexibility and choice over the remaining cover for the rest of the PES, as long as it is one of the pre-approved designs. MCSTs can also use these pre-approved designs to guide homeowners who wish to extend their cover beyond the 2m.
Now can have full covers over the entire PES.
But developers need not cover the whole thing.
http://www.ura.gov.sg/circulars/text/dc13-01app1.pdf
a. Full covers over the entire PES can be allowed. To avoid ad-hoc coverings of PES by individual owners downstream that could mar the appearance of the development, PES covers are to be designed upfront to be well integrated with the overall design of the development and approved as part of the development application process. Developers can propose a single cover design, or a few designs for the buyers to choose from.
b. However, developers will not need to install the entire cover. They will only need to install a covering of 2m in width from the external wall before selling the units, to ensure that basic protection from killer litter is provided. Homeowners will be given the flexibility and choice over the remaining cover for the rest of the PES, as long as it is one of the pre-approved designs. MCSTs can also use these pre-approved designs to guide homeowners who wish to extend their cover beyond the 2m.
Does it apply to the old development too?
NorthernStar
14-01-13, 13:03
The covers must be designed upfront by developer.. individual owner still cannot modify it.
Now can have full covers over the entire PES.
But developers need not cover the whole thing.
http://www.ura.gov.sg/circulars/text/dc13-01app1.pdf
a. Full covers over the entire PES can be allowed. To avoid ad-hoc coverings of PES by individual owners downstream that could mar the appearance of the development, PES covers are to be designed upfront to be well integrated with the overall design of the development and approved as part of the development application process. Developers can propose a single cover design, or a few designs for the buyers to choose from.
b. However, developers will not need to install the entire cover. They will only need to install a covering of 2m in width from the external wall before selling the units, to ensure that basic protection from killer litter is provided. Homeowners will be given the flexibility and choice over the remaining cover for the rest of the PES, as long as it is one of the pre-approved designs. MCSTs can also use these pre-approved designs to guide homeowners who wish to extend their cover beyond the 2m.
Does it apply to the old development too?
It shld be retrosepctively applied to the older developments, it's silly to have 2 sets of rules.
so means that my binds must be done by designer lor :doh: else ikea binds cannot be used.
Does it apply to the old development too?
No, if plot ratio already max. Possible if plot ratio not yet max, but need URA approval. Best write in to URA to clarify, if in doubt.
If just blinds, no issue, usually just get your MCST to approve (older condos may not even need approval).
If cover up roof terrace for 'old' condos, need URA approval unless you only install retractable awning or shelter not more than 2m from edge of building.
It shld be retrosepctively applied to the older developments, it's silly to have 2 sets of rules.
Think you have to read the guidelines carefully:
All PES and private roof terraces within flat and condominium developments, including executive condominiums, will now be computed as GFA. To qualify under the bonus GFA, capped at 10% beyond the Master Plan allowable GPR, they will need to comply with the following guidelines.
For new developments, all PES+RT+ balconies can only be included in the 10% bonus GFA. If they want to go beyond the 10%, they have to pay DC.
For existing developments, the balconies would have already used up all the available 10% bonus GFA since the PES+RT were so called 'free', hence URA may not allow PES+RT to be covered in existing developments.
proud owner
15-01-13, 22:36
Think you have to read the guidelines carefully:
For new developments, all PES+RT+ balconies can only be included in the 10% bonus GFA. If they want to go beyond the 10%, they have to pay DC.
For existing developments, the balconies would have already used up all the available 10% bonus GFA since the PES+RT were so called 'free', hence URA may not allow PES+RT to be covered in existing developments.
like i said
it depends on the kind of cover ...
as long as it is not enclosed ... it does not change the GFA ..MCST shud approve ...
but the design must also not be an eye sore lah ...
like i said
it depends on the kind of cover ...
as long as it is not enclosed ... it does not change the GFA ..MCST shud approve ...
but the design must also not be an eye sore lah ...
Under the old rules, the cover can only extend 2m from the wall (see quote from URA site below). . Anything beyond that is considered as additional GFA.
With the new rules, they allow full cover PROVIDED the PES+RT+Balconies do not exceed 10%, so my gut feel is that if your development has already used up the 10% bonus for balconies, it is unlikely they will grant approval for FULL cover of the PES as it is counted as additional GFA. You can still build a cover upto 2m tho'
(q) Private Enclosed Space (PES)
A "Private Enclosed Space" refers to a private outdoor area adjacent to a strata unit. It is intended to be an open uncovered space, with its extent defined by low fencing or wall to be owned by the adjacent strata unit owner for use as a private garden. There is no control on the material for the enclosure or fencing that defines extent of the PES. However, the PES enclosure or fencing must not exceed 1m in height to ensure that PES retains an open and outdoor character as shown in Figure 5.
PES that is protected by a cover up to 2m in depth measured from the external wall not computed as part of the overall gross floor area of a development. The subsequent covering of the PES beyond 2m in depth will generate additional GFA and requires planning permission. Submissions for additions and alterations within a strata unit which involve an increase in gross floor area are subject to the provisions in the Building Maintenance and Strata Management Act.
Does anybody know how much the developmental charges will be like to cover a PES or RT?
It may be worthwhile for a homeowner of current properties with RTs/PESs to consider applying to do so. In land scarce Singapore, every bit of space is worth converting for a more useful purpose.
How does one go about doing it? What are the obstacles and costs?
Would appreciate if anybody with experience in this to share.
Thank you in advance.
Does anybody know how much the developmental charges will be like to cover a PES or RT?
It may be worthwhile for a homeowner of current properties with RTs/PESs to consider applying to do so. In land scarce Singapore, every bit of space is worth converting for a more useful purpose.
How does one go about doing it? What are the obstacles and costs?
Would appreciate if anybody with experience in this to share.
Thank you in advance.
This might help. It depends on geographical area and unit type. Condos are B2.
http://www.ura.gov.sg/dc/Development%20Charge.htm
The rates are reviewed every six months.
This might help. It depends on geographical area and unit type. Condos are B2.
http://www.ura.gov.sg/dc/Development%20Charge.htm
The rates are reviewed every six months.
Great! Thanks a lot.
Looking at the table, the psm developmental charges are not that high. Only thousands of dollars per sqm. For example, in East Coast (sector95) it only costs $4200/sqm in developmental charges.
This means that a PES or RTof 3-400sqft will cost less than $150,000 to develop. Add renovation costs of up to $50,000. Two extra rooms can be created with $200k.
Great! Thanks a lot.
Looking at the table, the psm developmental charges are not that high. Only thousands of dollars per sqm. For example, in East Coast (sector95) it only costs $4200/sqm in developmental charges.
This means that a PES or RTof 3-400sqft will cost less than $150,000 to develop. Add renovation costs of up to $50,000. Two extra rooms can be created with $200k.
There are more challenges than just paying DC. You also have to get the approval of your MC (some of them are very sticky about the eternal facades) and planning permission from BCA. PLUS, with a larger GFA, your MC may also increase your unit's share value which may mean higher maintenance charges.
There are more challenges than just paying DC. You also have to get the approval of your MC (some of them are very sticky about the eternal facades) and planning permission from BCA. PLUS, with a larger GFA, your MC may also increase your unit's share value which may mean higher maintenance charges.
Yep.......
So how??
Do what everybody else is doing....... just quietly build and don't offend your neighbours l guess
Haha... it is actually quite rampant.
Yep.......
So how??
Do what everybody else is doing....... just quietly build and don't offend your neighbours l guess
Haha... it is actually quite rampant.
http://cloudfront3.bostinno.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/shhh.jpg
proud owner
18-01-13, 13:48
Great! Thanks a lot.
Looking at the table, the psm developmental charges are not that high. Only thousands of dollars per sqm. For example, in East Coast (sector95) it only costs $4200/sqm in developmental charges.
This means that a PES or RTof 3-400sqft will cost less than $150,000 to develop. Add renovation costs of up to $50,000. Two extra rooms can be created with $200k.
if the GFA has already been fully utilised ...you can forget about it ... paying DC also no use ... simply not allowed
so PC TOPed between 2005-2012 almost fully utilised their GFA ...if yours is much much older ...10-30 yr old PC ..then still got chance that the GFA was never fully used
if the GFA has already been fully utilised ...you can forget about it ... paying DC also no use ... simply not allowed
so PC TOPed between 2005-2012 almost fully utilised their GFA ...if yours is much much older ...10-30 yr old PC ..then still got chance that the GFA was never fully used
Thanks for info.
Talk about the PES, make me recall of 1 case. One day, I went to my friend's house (HDB), I saw a family (ground floor) was having barbecue just outside their house, that empty space suppose to be a public area where children can play around. Not only that, they filled a big float with water and treated it like a swimming pool and placed it at that empty space, adults and children also wear swimming suits:doh:. When they started the fire, everywhere was so smoky and smell of the food was everywhere.:doh: My friend told me that almost every weekend, they will have this celebration. They treated that public area like their private space. What my friend worry is, it might cause fire if there is a strong wind and blow some of the ashes to the canvas (the family has a canvas placed on top of their house, I think it is to prevent people from throwing things down) and my friend's house is just above this canvas.:banghead:
Has anyone installed glass curtains before? Is this allowed?
http://www.glasscurtains.com.sg/ :beats-me-man:
Has anyone installed glass curtains before? Is this allowed?
http://www.glasscurtains.com.sg/ :beats-me-man:
not allowed. mcst will ask you to remove it.
Good news for all PES and RT owners new and old
http://www.ura.gov.sg/uol/circulars/2014/Feb/dc14-03.aspx
Good news for all PES and RT owners new and old
http://www.ura.gov.sg/uol/circulars/2014/Feb/dc14-03.aspx
What does this mean?
What does this mean?
For older condo before Jan 14, the roof terrace and PES can now be covered too and
exempted from GFA computation.
But whatever you want to do, must consult your condo management too.
For older condo before Jan 14, the roof terrace and PES can now be covered too and
exempted from GFA computation.
But whatever you want to do, must consult your condo management too.
Oic.what about retractable screens like the "glass curtains"?
Oic.what about retractable screens like the "glass curtains"?
I'm keen to know too. What about "pushing out" the bedroom n add the curtain. :D
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.2 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.