View Full Version : Property Market Sentiments - According to the ground
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My interpretation of results: A lot of people trawling the online property sites window shopping, at the same time expecting govt to crash prices enough for them to afford.
Owners also not selling, tha is why price will be stagnant.
It's a stalemate of whether buyer or sellers will outlast each other and wait. Whether buyers will itchy backside cannot tahan and whack or sellers have some cash flow issues and wish to offload now. Overall not very healthy if you ask me - wait for massive investment funds from overseas whom factor in the ABSD into their investment and then you see suddenly another massive uplift of Psf in prices
thomastansb
09-02-13, 10:28
Actually ABSD 15% already biting CCR. Dropped 3% in Jan 2012. So CCR is going to be screwed as long as 15% is in force.
Hi..will the recent white paper on population growth would actually spur and motivates the property market, or at least cushioning off the correction?
thomastansb
09-02-13, 10:36
There will be a drop in population growth under this white paper. So I don't see how it will motivates the market. The Government has to be careful not to crash the market during a crisis. That affects 90% of the population.
Hi..will the recent white paper on population growth would actually spur and motivates the property market, or at least cushioning off the correction?
There will be a drop in population growth under this white paper. So I don't see how it will motivates the market. The Government has to be careful not to crash the market during a crisis. That affects 90% of the population.
There won't be drop as the white paper indicates we are recieving 6.9 milion of foreign talents to this vibrant island.
Actually ABSD 15% already biting CCR. Dropped 3% in Jan 2012. So CCR is going to be screwed as long as 15% is in force.OCR will continue chiong and overtake CCR in terms of psf? Gap continue to narrow?
OCR will continue chiong and overtake CCR in terms of psf? Gap continue to narrow?
I think whether CCR will dip depends materially on holding power of developers for new developments also - I went to Cityscape over the weekend and asked whether got discounts post cooling measure they say no ... Say developer got holding power can wait ... So I walked off. Sigh
There will be a drop in population growth under this white paper. So I don't see how it will motivates the market. The Government has to be careful not to crash the market during a crisis. That affects 90% of the population.
According to the govt and its white paper, when a crisis happens the foreigner buffer will be the first to take the hit, hence implying local population will be lesser hit or shielded. You should have more confidence in the PAP govt and its logic. :)
According to the govt and its white paper, when a crisis happens the foreigner buffer will be the first to take the hit, hence implying local population will be lesser hit or shielded. You should have more confidence in the PAP govt and its logic. :)
what do you mean by lesser hit or shielded?
more foreigners lose job as compared to locals?
what do you mean by lesser hit or shielded?
more foreigners lose job as compared to locals?
thats what the PAP ministers and MPs say. You dun believe? :)
It's all airy fairy lesser ... No clear definitions or guidelines whatsoever ... Fend for yourself man no handouts expected
Isn't this what many are hoping (since OCR owners make up majority)? :p
However, hope is hope. Is that even realistic and practical? It is like expecting Nissan Sunny or Toyota Corolla to be priced same as Lexus or BMW or Mercedes? :cheers1:
OCR will continue chiong and overtake CCR in terms of psf? Gap continue to narrow?
Yes, this is true. The foreigners get sent back first.
what do you mean by lesser hit or shielded?
more foreigners lose job as compared to locals?
I think whether CCR will dip depends materially on holding power of developers for new developments also - I went to Cityscape over the weekend and asked whether got discounts post cooling measure they say no ... Say developer got holding power can wait ... So I walked off. SighCityscape is RCR, anyway, I think their pricing is considered quite competitive, considering it is freehold and city fringe.
thomastansb
09-02-13, 18:29
Nope. There is a drop from the previous 5 years. So Singaporeans don't expect that much foreigners to rent your house. But whether that translate into price drop or not, that remains to be seen. Maybe 10% drop is realistic for now. CCR already went down 3% last month.
There won't be drop as the white paper indicates we are recieving 6.9 milion of foreign talents to this vibrant island.
There won't be drop as the white paper indicates we are recieving 6.9 milion of foreign talents to this vibrant island.
I guess u are one of those who donno how to read English. Only know how to look at no. See 6.9 all jump.
I guess u are one of those who donno how to read English. Only know how to look at no. See 6.9 all jump.
I think he just like to stir la :D
:witches-brew:
To me the white paper show me how much displeasure with the present government on the ground. This is really worrying.. I believe the 6.9 million white paper is needed for our country to continue to growth or else why PAP will want to risk their future with this white paper.
The next three years is critical for PAP now. If they screwed up again with the population or any of the privatized government company screwed up big time like SMRT, then don't be surprised to see opp. taking down another 1 or 2 GRC. WP perform rather well in this white paper discussion. They are very careful in their speech rather than PAP having to come out with a few apologies due to wrong words spoken out...
thomastansb
10-02-13, 10:08
WP white paper is a joke. We will have high inflation and high unemployment. SME can close shop already and we will enter a recession.
From an economy point of view.
To me the white paper show me how much displeasure with the present government on the ground. This is really worrying.. I believe the 6.9 million white paper is needed for our country to continue to growth or else why PAP will want to risk their future with this white paper.
The next three years is critical for PAP now. If they screwed up again with the population or any of the privatized government company screwed up big time like SMRT, then don't be surprised to see opp. taking down another 1 or 2 GRC. WP perform rather well in this white paper discussion. They are very careful in their speech rather than PAP having to come out with a few apologies due to wrong words spoken out...
I started this thread for purpose of discussion PROPERTY market sentiments... turned into population WP discussion again. Since it's so, let me share my .02 view.
I support the White Paper for the following selfish reasons:
- landlord myself (thus welcome more skilled foreigners)
- don't have offsprings to take care of
- i want my assets to grow, which is not possible in a closed/stagnant economy
The general non-investor public should *ALSO* support the WP (White Paper, not Worker's Party) for the following reasons:
- they and their offsprings cannot grow in their career working for limited number of SMEs; foreigners along with their MNCs which contribute to jobs and value creation should be welcomed
- they have offsprings to plan for, even more so they want to leave them a vibrant and growing economy and good business environment and job opportunities instead of a stagnant one with little upside (look at how China did after their doors opened) where people just musical chairs the jobs created locally by SME
- they want their assets to grow, which is not possible in a closed/stagnant economy
So why on earth would anyone other then non-contributing locals without any asset to their name vote against the WP?
And how much contribution to this economy do you reckon such a demographic can provide?
I started this thread for purpose of discussion PROPERTY market sentiments... turned into population WP discussion again. Since it's so, let me share my .02 view.
I support the White Paper for the following selfish reasons:
- landlord myself (thus welcome more skilled foreigners)
- don't have offsprings to take care of
- i want my assets to grow, which is not possible in a closed/stagnant economy
The general non-investor public should *ALSO* support the WP (White Paper, not Worker's Party) for the following reasons:
- they and their offsprings cannot grow in their career working for limited number of SMEs; foreigners along with their MNCs which contribute to jobs and value creation should be welcomed
- they have offsprings to plan for, even more so they want to leave them a vibrant and growing economy and good business environment and job opportunities instead of a stagnant one with little upside (look at how China did after their doors opened) where people just musical chairs the jobs created locally by SME
- they want their assets to grow, which is not possible in a closed/stagnant economy
So why on earth would anyone other then non-contributing locals without any asset to their name vote against the WP?
And how much contribution to this economy do you reckon such a demographic can provide?
Maybe I am not understanding something here and if I am please correct me . What worker party is advocating is not zero FT but to maintain a sustainable proportion of FTs in the Singapore economy instead. I think everyone is on the same page on the value that some FTs bring to or economy. But that immigration should slow just a tad to allow infrastructure and residential amenities to catch up. You have a vested interest to maintain current super high prices as you have multiple assets. Nothin wrong with that. But no other entry level citizen or PR might be able to afford private properties if the trend continues further. Is this a good thing to price out fellow own Singaporeans? I am not really sure
I started this thread for purpose of discussion PROPERTY market sentiments... turned into population WP discussion again. Since it's so, let me share my .02 view.
I support the White Paper for the following selfish reasons:
- landlord myself (thus welcome more skilled foreigners)
- don't have offsprings to take care of
- i want my assets to grow, which is not possible in a closed/stagnant economy
The general non-investor public should *ALSO* support the WP (White Paper, not Worker's Party) for the following reasons:
- they and their offsprings cannot grow in their career working for limited number of SMEs; foreigners along with their MNCs which contribute to jobs and value creation should be welcomed
- they have offsprings to plan for, even more so they want to leave them a vibrant and growing economy and good business environment and job opportunities instead of a stagnant one with little upside (look at how China did after their doors opened) where people just musical chairs the jobs created locally by SME
- they want their assets to grow, which is not possible in a closed/stagnant economy
So why on earth would anyone other then non-contributing locals without any asset to their name vote against the WP?
And how much contribution to this economy do you reckon such a demographic can provide?
We need foreigners in our economy. This is e hard truth. The govt mistake was 10-20 years ago when there is insufficient bonus for couples to have children.
Maybe I am not understanding something here and if I am please correct me . What worker party is advocating is not zero FT but to maintain a sustainable proportion of FTs in the Singapore economy instead. I think everyone is on the same page on the value that some FTs bring to or economy. But that immigration should slow just a tad to allow infrastructure and residential amenities to catch up. You have a vested interest to maintain current super high prices as you have multiple assets. Nothin wrong with that. But no other entry level citizen or PR might be able to afford private properties if the trend continues further. Is this a good thing to price out fellow own Singaporeans? I am not really sure
In a meritocratic society, the govt don't typically slow down the WHOLE economy just to allow some to play catch up. 80/20 rule applies here. 80% are home owners. The answer is pretty simple, the way I see it.
I'm also only addressing the govt WP and the general public reaction, not referring at all to the opp's.
We need foreigners in our economy. This is e hard truth. The govt mistake was 10-20 years ago when there is insufficient bonus for couples to have children.
We need to track back to history and understand where we came from and who we are really.
WE WERE FOREIGNERS. To begin with.
Our ancestors all came from other countries like China, India, Indonesia etc. What is happening today is the same as what always have been. In short, nothing's changed.
Naturally now that we lay claim to this land, and our seeds are sown here, we will want to protect what we sow. However, let us not forget how we got to where we are today. A 30% increase in population may seem to be much, but if it is quality and skilled FT with high economic and social value, we should support. They can only be good for us all. Even on the job competition front, it will serve to push us locals to upgrade and remain competitive instead of sitting on our laurels.
We have to think smart and act accordingly. I never enjoyed any form of housing subsidy from the government nor handouts and personally am only average in aptitude and far from any remote change of high flyer. If I can do it, anybody can. So start acting, read alot, research a lot, form your own strategy and stop whining.
Allthepies
10-02-13, 10:46
I started this thread for purpose of discussion PROPERTY market sentiments... turned into population WP discussion again. Since it's so, let me share my .02 view.
I support the White Paper for the following selfish reasons:
- landlord myself (thus welcome more skilled foreigners)
- don't have offsprings to take care of
- i want my assets to grow, which is not possible in a closed/stagnant economy
The general non-investor public should *ALSO* support the WP (White Paper, not Worker's Party) for the following reasons:
- they and their offsprings cannot grow in their career working for limited number of SMEs; foreigners along with their MNCs which contribute to jobs and value creation should be welcomed
- they have offsprings to plan for, even more so they want to leave them a vibrant and growing economy and good business environment and job opportunities instead of a stagnant one with little upside (look at how China did after their doors opened) where people just musical chairs the jobs created locally by SME
- they want their assets to grow, which is not possible in a closed/stagnant economy
So why on earth would anyone other then non-contributing locals without any asset to their name vote against the WP?
And how much contribution to this economy do you reckon such a demographic can provide?
+10 like.
But after a few years I would support a worker party welfare state system ;D taxation of 20% to 95% cause my work income will be close to zero. No more taxation for me and still can enjoy all the welfare :cheers1: all the hardworking people will feed us, the non working people.
We need to track back to history and understand where we came from and who we are really.
WE WERE FOREIGNERS. To begin with.
Our ancestors all came from other countries like China, India, Indonesia etc. What is happening today is the same as what always have been. In short, nothing's changed.
i would correct your erroneous history.
Spore was a british colony, the immigrants who arrived back then did not come to a sovereign nation. Along the way nationhood arrived and these immigrants become citizens and helped build up spore to where it is today.
Get this fact right.
today's immigrants is entirely different and everything has changed. First of all it is questionable the kind of contribution they are bringing, secondly the ease in which they obtain their PR or citizenship cheapens our nationhood and dilute our Spore core.
thomastansb
10-02-13, 10:58
You must be kidding me. Most of us and my friends' grandfather are either from China, HK or Malaysia. I am 30 years old. I don't see how different my grandfather were with now. We have more foreigners than before because we have a vibrant economy. Maybe when we are like Somalia, then we have no foreigners.
i would correct your erroneous history.
Spore was a british colony, the immigrants who arrived back then did not come to a sovereign nation. Along the way nationhood arrived and these immigrants become citizens and helped build up spore to where it is today.
Get this fact right.
today's immigrants is entirely different and everything has changed. First of all it is questionable the kind of contribution they are bringing, secondly the ease in which they obtain their PR or citizenship cheapens our nationhood and dilute our Spore core.
I started this thread for purpose of discussion PROPERTY market sentiments... turned into population WP discussion again. Since it's so, let me share my .02 view.
I support the White Paper for the following selfish reasons:
- landlord myself (thus welcome more skilled foreigners)
- don't have offsprings to take care of
- i want my assets to grow, which is not possible in a closed/stagnant economy
The general non-investor public should *ALSO* support the WP (White Paper, not Worker's Party) for the following reasons:
- they and their offsprings cannot grow in their career working for limited number of SMEs; foreigners along with their MNCs which contribute to jobs and value creation should be welcomed
- they have offsprings to plan for, even more so they want to leave them a vibrant and growing economy and good business environment and job opportunities instead of a stagnant one with little upside (look at how China did after their doors opened) where people just musical chairs the jobs created locally by SME
- they want their assets to grow, which is not possible in a closed/stagnant economy
So why on earth would anyone other then non-contributing locals without any asset to their name vote against the WP?
And how much contribution to this economy do you reckon such a demographic can provide?
PAP's white paper is an economic paper based on old models of the past, pure and simple.
It begins with the premise of 3 to 5% GDP growth and then work backwards to derive the necessary numbers to boost GDP by perspiration. All the talk by PAP about Spore core etc are just smokescreen. Non economic indicators of progress such as sustainability are completely ignored in the paper.
You must be kidding me. Most of us and my friends' grandfather are either from China, HK or Malaysia. I am 30 years old. I don't see how different my grandfather were with now. We have more foreigners than before because we have a vibrant economy. Maybe when we are like Somalia, then we have no foreigners.
I read the other thread. Arent you one of those who have decided to move your assets elsewhere and contemplating getting out of this "vibrant" economy and place?
I am seeing a contradiction in you.
thomastansb
10-02-13, 11:04
It is not for your selfish reasons.
No sensible country or citizens want their property prices to drop. I haven't seen a country saying, we want 2% growth instead of 3%. This is the first time and Singaporeans are really daft.
But when more people are becoming daft, this is what happens. I have to be fair that our transport is bad but I can see some effort being made to improve them.
Housing is NEVER expensive. 4 bedroom HDB cost as little as 220k. Our 20th percentile citizen is earning $1,450. If the 20th % can afford 4 bedroom, Singaporeans are well off. Yes, we have poor people but which country don't have? At least 90% are well to do in Singapore. I can't say for other countries similar to ours.
Of course, some daft people will use Dubai as example. That is why they are stupid and daft IMO. Dubai has natural resources. I wouldn't even want to reply to brainless people's postings.
I started this thread for purpose of discussion PROPERTY market sentiments... turned into population WP discussion again. Since it's so, let me share my .02 view.
I support the White Paper for the following selfish reasons:
- landlord myself (thus welcome more skilled foreigners)
- don't have offsprings to take care of
- i want my assets to grow, which is not possible in a closed/stagnant economy
The general non-investor public should *ALSO* support the WP (White Paper, not Worker's Party) for the following reasons:
- they and their offsprings cannot grow in their career working for limited number of SMEs; foreigners along with their MNCs which contribute to jobs and value creation should be welcomed
- they have offsprings to plan for, even more so they want to leave them a vibrant and growing economy and good business environment and job opportunities instead of a stagnant one with little upside (look at how China did after their doors opened) where people just musical chairs the jobs created locally by SME
- they want their assets to grow, which is not possible in a closed/stagnant economy
So why on earth would anyone other then non-contributing locals without any asset to their name vote against the WP?
And how much contribution to this economy do you reckon such a demographic can provide?
Allthepies
10-02-13, 11:05
I heard our very own Chen sao Mao grew up overseas? :D :D
Please help me to verify I'm too lazy to do it.
thomastansb
10-02-13, 11:06
Of course. If most Singaporeans become daft, I would. Who wouldn't?
I read the other thread. Arent you one of those who have decided to move your assets elsewhere and contemplating getting out of this "vibrant" economy and place?
I am seeing a contradiction in you.
It is not for your selfish reasons.
No sensible country or citizens want their property prices to drop. I haven't seen a country saying, we want 2% growth instead of 3%. This is the first time and Singaporeans are really daft.
But when more people are becoming daft, this is what happens. I have to be fair that our transport is bad but I can see some effort being made to improve them.
Housing is NEVER expensive. 4 bedroom HDB cost as little as 220k. Our 20th percentile citizen is earning $1,450. If the 20th % can afford 4 bedroom, Singaporeans are well off. Yes, we have poor people but which country don't have? At least 90% are well to do in Singapore. I can't say for other countries similar to ours.
Of course, some daft people will use Dubai as example. That is why they are stupid and daft IMO. Dubai has natural resources. I wouldn't even want to reply to brainless people's postings.
Well said!
I heard our very own Chen sao Mao grew up overseas? :D :D
Please help me to verify I'm too lazy to do it.
See below.
Not so "New Citizen".
Personal profile
Chen was born in Taiwan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan) and moved to Singapore (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapore) at the age of 11. He studied at Nanyang Primary School (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanyang_Primary_School), Catholic High School (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_High_School,_Singapore) and Anglo-Chinese School (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Chinese_School).[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chen_Show_Mao#cite_note-3) Chen was the president of the students' council at National Junior College (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Junior_College) and graduated as the top student in Singapore for the 1979 GCE Advanced Level (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapore-Cambridge_GCE_Advanced_Level) examinations,[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chen_Show_Mao#cite_note-4) scoring distinctions in various subjects.
Although Chen had yet to become a Singapore citizen, he chose to perform compulsory military service (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Singapore), officially known as National Service (NS) in Singapore. While in NS, Chen was an infantry platoon commander at the Fifth Singapore Infantry Regiment (5SIR) and as Brigade Adjutant, or DYS1, at the headquarters of the Third Singapore Infantry Brigade (3SIB).[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chen_Show_Mao#cite_note-5) He took up citizenship in 1986, six years after serving National Service.
Despite graduating as the top student for the 1979 GCE Advanced Level examinations, Chen did not gain admission into the local medical school.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chen_Show_Mao#cite_note-6) Thereupon, he pursued his undergraduate studies with major in economics at Harvard University (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvard_University). Chen graduated from Harvard University in 1986 and from Corpus Christi College (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corpus_Christi_College,_Oxford), Oxford University (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_University) in 1988, where he was a Rhodes Scholar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhodes_Scholar).[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chen_Show_Mao#cite_note-7) In 1992 Chen received his Juris Doctor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juris_Doctor) from Stanford Law School (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_Law_School) and in 2005 received his Master of Arts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_of_Arts) from Corpus Christi College (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corpus_Christi_College,_Oxford), Oxford University (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_University).[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chen_Show_Mao#cite_note-8)
Of course. If most Singaporeans become daft, I would. Who wouldn't?
The daft ones are those who could not see beyond their noses. If you are vested in properties you would want prices to be first and foremost stable. You would not like cyclical shocks or sudden gyrations in the market. Such instability and volatility benefit speculators and those who have perhaps missed the boats. You wld also want the market to be sustainable, and your real estate assets to continue to be desirable going forward instead of shrinking to shoebox sizes or their surrounding environments compromised due to constant degradation from increased density affected on a finite constraint. GDP by perspiration is not sustainable growth, and the long term fallout from such policies are already showing. If this is not obvious to you, then I can only surmise not very lucid thinking on your part, and maybe just a lack in foresight. :)
In any case I am glad the likes of you are quitting Spore bcos it wouldnt be the nation's loss, just like those businesses who could not move up the value chain and addicted on cheap labour should feel free to move elsewhere.
It is not for your selfish reasons.
No sensible country or citizens want their property prices to drop. I haven't seen a country saying, we want 2% growth instead of 3%. This is the first time and Singaporeans are really daft.
But when more people are becoming daft, this is what happens. I have to be fair that our transport is bad but I can see some effort being made to improve them.
Housing is NEVER expensive. 4 bedroom HDB cost as little as 220k. Our 20th percentile citizen is earning $1,450. If the 20th % can afford 4 bedroom, Singaporeans are well off. Yes, we have poor people but which country don't have? At least 90% are well to do in Singapore. I can't say for other countries similar to ours.
Of course, some daft people will use Dubai as example. That is why they are stupid and daft IMO. Dubai has natural resources. I wouldn't even want to reply to brainless people's postings.
Hahaha... Affordable? $220k is not expensive if you are earning $5-6k a month.. For some one who earn $1450 a month that will need mean he have to use his entire life to repay. Unless he can move out of that class of job, or else he will be the slave of the banks for his entire life. Although it is not the fault of the government as how much a person earn all depend on himself. Cannot because expensive and cannot afford then blame government. Have to think why don't have money and cannot earn more. But I feel the government can say the truth, if you think things are expensive means u r not capable enough to earn more money to afford those things. Complaining are for losers only. If not happy go and vote for opp. Don't everyday complain but when come polling still vote for the same thing again. This is typical loser behavior. Got time to complain why don't go and upgrade and earn more and stop waiting for things to happen.
In a meritocratic society, the govt don't typically slow down the WHOLE economy just to allow some to play catch up. 80/20 rule applies here. 80% are home owners. The answer is pretty simple, the way I see it.
I'm also only addressing the govt WP and the general public reaction, not referring at all to the opp's.
It's allowing for infrastructure to catch up with the exploding residential areas which are now showing signs of premature wear and tear due to intensified use from overcrowding. Think a slightly slower economic growth but growth nonetheless as a measure approach for sustainability. Like previously mentioned you have a vested interest in ensuring as big and fast jump in economic growth as possible with your asset base. People whom
Are not so fortunate would be thinking in a slightly otherwise direction
Hahaha... Affordable? $220k is not expensive if you are earning $5-6k a month.. For some one who earn $1450 a month that will need mean he have to use his entire life to repay. Unless he can move out of that class of job, or else he will be the slave of the banks for his entire life. Although it is not the fault of the government as how much a person earn all depend on himself. Cannot because expensive and cannot afford then blame government. Have to think why don't have money and cannot earn more. But I feel the government can say the truth, if you think things are expensive means u r not capable enough to earn more money to afford those things. Complaining are for losers only. If not happy go and vote for opp. Don't everyday complain but when come polling still vote for the same thing again. This is typical loser behavior. Got time to complain why don't go and upgrade and earn more and stop waiting for things to happen.
Well said especially the part about people complaining and yet at the end of the day just vote for status quo - want to make your voice and position heard then pls dare to vote to make a difference and not complain and vote inconsistently
thats what the PAP ministers and MPs say. You dun believe? :)
if FW/FTs is sacked first.
1) no rent expenses.
2) their living expenses spend at their other countries
3) those who have cpf may withdraw all.
if singaporeans sacked first
1) their living expenses still spend in singapore.
i think GDP will drop less if singaporeans sacked first.
Well said especially the part about people complaining and yet at the end of the day just vote for status quo - want to make your voice and position heard then pls dare to vote to make a difference and not complain and vote inconsistently
The question is voting for alternative voice does it change things? Will it result in property price and they become happy? But at the end of the day price drop, but economy weakened, job loss, how to buy?
if FW/FTs is sacked first.
1) no rent expenses.
2) their living expenses spend at their other countries
3) those who have cpf may withdraw all.
if singaporeans sacked first
1) their living expenses still spend in singapore.
i think GDP will drop less if singaporeans sacked first.
truth is both lose jobs, the rhetoric of using foreigners as a buffer is well, just rhetoric.
The question is voting for alternative voice does it change things? Will it result in property price and they become happy? But at the end of the day price drop, but economy weakened, job loss, how to buy?
end of day price did drop, economy was weak, there were job loss. precisely many asked "how to buy?"
So, many didn't, and this is call miss-the-boat. lol
The question is voting for alternative voice does it change things? Will it result in property price and they become happy? But at the end of the day price drop, but economy weakened, job loss, how to buy?
No one wants market to tank - voting opposition does not spell the end of Singapore as we know it - of course people wil dubbed it as the doomsday theory when that happens. I am not so sure of that. I will want more opposition so that pap will work harder and think carefully about its impact on policies. The recent by election is a tell tale sign that the younger generation is unhappy and top three issues relates to high property prices and standard of living - time will tell whether their policies will be tweaked further or risk being booted out.
Maybe I am not understanding something here and if I am please correct me . What worker party is advocating is not zero FT but to maintain a sustainable proportion of FTs in the Singapore economy instead. I think everyone is on the same page on the value that some FTs bring to or economy. But that immigration should slow just a tad to allow infrastructure and residential amenities to catch up. You have a vested interest to maintain current super high prices as you have multiple assets. Nothin wrong with that. But no other entry level citizen or PR might be able to afford private properties if the trend continues further. Is this a good thing to price out fellow own Singaporeans? I am not really sure
Works Party paper is say stop all FT till 2020. that it self is damaging enough to business that need workers.
The happiest folks at the Malaysian now as a no. of business are already moving go JB or Malaysia. With if Worker Party policy is implemented are we folks ready for a huge jump in service cost? coz there will be a even higher labor crunch. basically we are throwing a wrench into the economy gear. and once the business are moved over to Malaysia they wont be coming back. I am sure Najib will be really happy .
So I dont see any pt in Workers Party me too proposal.
Works Party paper is say stop all FT till 2020. that it self is damaging enough to business that need workers.
The happiest folks at the Malaysian now as a no. of business are already moving go JB or Malaysia. With if Worker Party policy is implemented are we folks ready for a huge jump in service cost? coz there will be a even higher labor crunch. basically we are throwing a wrench into the economy gear. and once the business are moved over to Malaysia they wont be coming back. I am sure Najib will be really happy .
So I dont see any pt in Workers Party me too proposal.
Is it a blanket stop for any FT immigration at all under workers party proposal? Or to maintain existing FT proportion but allowing for changes to FT levels such as PMET and lower level workers change? I always thought its the later where immigration is still permissible for new value add high level PMET FTs but maybe restrict some other levels of FTs. I stand to be corrected of course.
To be fair - the existing government is caught in between. Ramping up development further will mean higher residential prices and risk isolating further the current yuppies main workforce. Putting a slight stop and you risk pissing off the matured and accomplished populace with multiple assets based in Singapore. This really depends on which choice the government will take and either way who the government wants to alienate.
And the point about meritocracy is circumspect. How many years savings must a lawyer make in order to afford an entry level 2 bedder of 1.2 million ? Can anyone dare say this is not a deterrent despite one having accomplished some form of academic excellence and yet failed to be able to afford a private property because the current property market is just too daunting now ?
No one wants market to tank - voting opposition does not spell the end of Singapore as we know it - of course people wil dubbed it as the doomsday theory when that happens. I am not so sure of that. I will want more opposition so that pap will work harder and think carefully about its impact on policies. The recent by election is a tell tale sign that the younger generation is unhappy and top three issues relates to high property prices and standard of living - time will tell whether their policies will be tweaked further or risk being booted out.
yes voting opposition do note mean a dooms day. but over doing it mess up the policies. Do we want a Taiwan style democracy? a government that cant do anything? Coz every min they are worry what the people feel n think? or even a HongKong style that always protest?
well the young might not be happy. but do they have foresight? if all that matters to them is the right here right now gratification. Then perhaps that indeed is the start of the Singapore down fall story.
The white paper do spell out the development of the country. to address the housing concerns, as well as the forward planning to house up to 6.9m people.
Look at Hongkong today 7M they are planning 13M.
Do we want a japan style ? looking at Japan aging population they are on a decline. look at al the japan brands ? all getting booted by the koreans. Who have a much younger vibrant population. Even the culture export like K-PoP are vibrant.
Its important we maintain a young demographic where we need the creativity , vibrancy. The old can still play a part but we have to be open. We all get old some day. Do we want to live in a old folks home? in 2060 at this rate will be a 1 big old folks home if we dont have local replacement. If we cannot replace then foreign top up is inevitable.
The question is voting for alternative voice does it change things? Will it result in property price and they become happy? But at the end of the day price drop, but economy weakened, job loss, how to buy?
Why an alternative voice in the government will cost the country to fall in recession and property price will fall and the world will fall.... Naive... Sorry to say that.. But that is what I feel. Anyone can do the job as what the present government is doing. MP are just representative of the people. USA also have 2 party in the house, did the country fall in the past decade? They grow to super power... Japan is a multi party system also. They are the world third economy...
All political system work the same. You need balance and checks. U just need someone to check on things and make sure things are done correctly. If the opp just reject or cost trouble in the government they will be throw out immediately. Same as the ruling party, if they screw up they should be throw out too. What the people want now is answer to transportation, housing, flooding, etc. Is it too much to ask for? Don't u think we should get a better answer than let's move on or once in 60 years... It is clear that the ruling party is performing better now after the last GE. They are more willing to speak to the people and listen and not just sit in the office and not assume everything is what they think. World class transportation that break down so regularly. A garden city that also ponding? Those words just show that they are already disconnect with the reality. We must vote in people who we think can make Singapore better, it can be PAP, WP, etc.
From what I see, PAP did a much better job after the last GE and if they continue to use more heart for the people, they will win over the heart of people too.
yes voting opposition do note mean a dooms day. but over doing it mess up the policies. Do we want a Taiwan style democracy? a government that cant do anything? Coz every min they are worry what the people feel n think? or even a HongKong style that always protest?
well the young might not be happy. but do they have foresight? if all that matters to them is the right here right now gratification. Then perhaps that indeed is the start of the Singapore down fall story.
The white paper do spell out the development of the country. to address the housing concerns, as well as the forward planning to house up to 6.9m people.
Look at Hongkong today 7M they are planning 13M.
Do we want a japan style ? looking at Japan aging population they are on a decline. look at al the japan brands ? all getting booted by the koreans. Who have a much younger vibrant population. Even the culture export like K-PoP are vibrant.
Its important we maintain a young demographic where we need the creativity , vibrancy. The old can still play a part but we have to be open. We all get old some day. Do we want to live in a old folks home? in 2060 at this rate will be a 1 big old folks home if we dont have local replacement. If we cannot replace then foreign top up is inevitable.
You may be right that foreign top up may be inevitable but what is doubted is why there is no more extensive consultation or discussion leading to the white paper being out. Seems to be more top down.
Again voting against does not mean no foresight since no one can really determine with great certainty what the future holds. What is certain if everything remains status quo will be that first time
Singaporeans will continue to be priced out not only for private properties but even EC and even normal HDB at prime areas.
Something seems at least on a surface level to be not right when a cherry QQ costs more than a BMW at some other places overseas. And a HDB flat at central area here costs more than a decent house landed at some other parts of the world
Is it a blanket stop for any FT immigration at all under workers party proposal? Or to maintain existing FT proportion but allowing for changes to FT levels such as PMET and lower level workers change? I always thought its the later where immigration is still permissible for new value add high level PMET FTs but maybe restrict some other levels of FTs. I stand to be corrected of course.
To be fair - the existing government is caught in between. Ramping up development further will mean higher residential prices and risk isolating further the current yuppies main workforce. Putting a slight stop and you risk pissing off the matured and accomplished populace with multiple assets based in Singapore. This really depends on which choice the government will take and either way who the government wants to alienate.
And the point about meritocracy is circumspect. How many years savings must a lawyer make in order to afford an entry level 2 bedder of 1.2 million ? Can anyone dare say this is not a deterrent despite one having accomplished some form of academic excellence and yet failed to be able to afford a private property because the current property market is just too daunting now ?
Pls stand corrected.
""The Workers’ Party has presented an extreme scenario as a plausible choice for Singaporeans. It proposes to immediately stop any increase in foreign workforce until 2020, capping it at the current levels; and it further proposes that we should rely exclusively on increasing our resident workforce by 1%."
ZERO increase till 2020 means no more workers. with that will fan inflation on labor cost. creating shortage. Forcing business out and inevitability job losses. Also if we so much need to build homes. how to we build faster like some Singaporean wants? ( asap) wihtout more work force?
1.2M.. u are talking abt private housing. that is a free market. There are affordable housing that the entry lawyer can explore. buy from HDB. BTO 3 bedder 164K , 5 bed room 340K. That to me are very affordable for a entry lawyer. Its not the government role to ensure that everyone must afford private housing. Since when it was that way? next is what? becoz after study must also means daunting to own a Car? then what else? min 2-3 holidays a year? If cannot achieve such daunting achievements its the system fault?
The government can provide the citizen with the tools and environment to compete in the world arena. i.e. housing, medical, education and a stable environment. We cannot be expecting the government ensure we achieve all out 5 Cs one we get out to work. Lets be realistic abt that.
Why an alternative voice in the government will cost the country to fall in recession and property price will fall and the world will fall.... Naive... Sorry to say that.. But that is what I feel. Anyone can do the job as what the present government is doing. MP are just representative of the people. USA also have 2 party in the house, did the country fall in the past decade? They grow to super power... Japan is a multi party system also. They are the world third economy...
All political system work the same. You need balance and checks. U just need someone to check on things and make sure things are done correctly. If the opp just reject or cost trouble in the government they will be throw out immediately. Same as the ruling party, if they screw up they should be throw out too. What the people want now is answer to transportation, housing, flooding, etc. Is it too much to ask for? Don't u think we should get a better answer than let's move on or once in 60 years... It is clear that the ruling party is performing better now after the last GE. They are more willing to speak to the people and listen and not just sit in the office and not assume everything is what they think. World class transportation that break down so regularly. A garden city that also ponding? Those words just show that they are already disconnect with the reality. We must vote in people who we think can make Singapore better, it can be PAP, WP, etc.
From what I see, PAP did a much better job after the last GE and if they continue to use more heart for the people, they will win over the heart of people too.
I can also discern a more pro active stance by the incumbent government now on certain policies as there is a more discerning voting population and not one that just votes for our famous mr lee.
Let's not be mistaken here as I really admire and respect mr lee for what he has done for founding our country. But the younger generation has no real connections with this and will vote basis what is being done now to address rising property costs and 100k paper COE to drive in Singapore
Pls stand corrected.
""The Workers’ Party has presented an extreme scenario as a plausible choice for Singaporeans. It proposes to immediately stop any increase in foreign workforce until 2020, capping it at the current levels; and it further proposes that we should rely exclusively on increasing our resident workforce by 1%."
ZERO increase till 2020 means no more workers. with that will fan inflation on labor cost. creating shortage. Forcing business out and inevitability job losses. Also if we so much need to build homes. how to we build faster like some Singaporean wants? ( asap) wihtout more work force?
1.2M.. u are talking abt private housing. that is a free market. There are affordable housing that the entry lawyer can explore. buy from HDB. BTO 3 bedder 164K , 5 bed room 340K. That to me are very affordable for a entry lawyer. Its not the government role to ensure that everyone must afford private housing. Since when it was that way? next is what? becoz after study must also means daunting to own a Car? then what else? min 2-3 holidays a year? If cannot achieve such daunting achievements its the system fault?
The government can provide the citizen with the tools and environment to compete in the world arena. i.e. housing, medical, education and a stable environment. We cannot be expecting the government ensure we achieve all out 5 Cs one we get out to work. Lets be realistic abt that.
Er no increase does not mean not immigration at all since there will be those leaving or dun want to renew permit ?
Erm not saying government should hand over cheap properties on a silver plate to me just because its a duty by the government obviously its not.
Lets not get too personal on this just a nice friendly discussion on pro and cons
You may be right that foreign top up may be inevitable but what is doubted is why there is no more extensive consultation or discussion leading to the white paper being out. Seems to be more top down.
Again voting against does not mean no foresight since no one can really determine with great certainty what the future holds. What is certain if everything remains status quo will be that first time
Singaporeans will continue to be priced out not only for private properties but even EC and even normal HDB at prime areas.
Something seems at least on a surface level to be not right when a cherry QQ costs more than a BMW at some other places overseas. And a HDB flat at central area here costs more than a decent house landed at some other parts of the world
You would not be able to please the whole nation. Want full consultative? tats taiwan style. Thus they get no where. MA Jin Jiu so worry abt election results that his administration just cant do anything . No tough decisions. Coz always there will be people who dont want the policies. So its imperative that hard decisions have to be made for the long term plan for the nation.
Why would the current PAP so free? u think they dont know this White paper will be a firestorm? Why not just sweep it under the carpet come 2030 let the new guys sort it out. They can cruise along happy happy give the people what they want. feel good and happy. then times come wipe hands n pass on. coz its a 20yrs later problem.
The thing is the TFT ration is low. even today everyone of us go on a productivity drive. and make babies. and we have say a sudden TFT 2.0 type result for next 20 yrs. the 1st batch of workers wont hit the market till 2035. and those are mostly fresh grad without experience.
Thus there are a urgency to 1. make the nation see the urgency. 2. have a plan.
Workers party plans are kicking the bucket down the road.
1. freeze FT workers till 2020 then 1% growth.
2. at the same time encourage people to pro create. what if the encouragement dont work? and the economy thank becoz of that? job losses etc? ( its also common statics birth rates are lower when economy are poorer) this will send us into the hole we cannot climb out of. by then u want FT injection? no economy why will the FT be coming anyway?
So I am totally supportive of the hard decision the WP put out. At least its a logical plan ahead till 2030.
Er no increase does not mean not immigration at all since there will be those leaving or dun want to renew permit ?
Erm not saying government should hand over cheap properties on a silver plate to me just because its a duty by the government obviously its not.
Lets not get too personal on this just a nice friendly discussion on pro and cons
that is ZERO growth.. so no new business? business that need expanding here how? cannot find people to do the work?
also to elaborate so business need to grow to survive. they cannot stay stagnant. i.e. why u see Toast box everywhere for example? every shop make $? no. but they cannot stop.
Sorry I not trying to sounding unfriendly. I am just being blunt. Coz there are a lot of mis information and rumour mongering. Fear generating more fear.
I am just telling u folks what I am seeing in the business scene. Business are starting to move to JB. Cost for the same group of FT are spiking coz shortage and no Singaporean want to do the job, even MNC are hiring the FT base in Malaysia but for now report to singapore bosses.
To me this are worrying signs. If we move this too far. we hurt ourselves and benefit Malaysia.
We can all talk big. abt freedom, democracy , Quality of life , Living standards etc. in the end it boils down to the Job n providing for the family and spending time with them. unless each of us are born with a silver spoon. We have to work. without a job all those big stuff we talk abt don't mean nothing. Thus I am very supportive of the paper again for this. coz for 20yrs till 2030. the amount of infra building will generate business opportunities in Singapore and thus create jobs. which indirectly can let the people think and talk big abt freedom, democracy , Quality of life , Living standards etc.
that is ZERO growth.. so no new business? business that need expanding here how? cannot find people to do the work?
also to elaborate so business need to grow to survive. they cannot stay stagnant. i.e. why u see Toast box everywhere for example? every shop make $? no. but they cannot stop.
Sorry I not trying to sounding unfriendly. I am just being blunt. Coz there are a lot of mis information and rumour mongering. Fear generating more fear.
I am just telling u folks what I am seeing in the business scene. Business are starting to move to JB. Cost for the same group of FT are spiking coz shortage and no Singaporean want to do the job, even MNC are hiring the FT base in Malaysia but for now report to singapore bosses.
To me this are worrying signs. If we move this too far. we hurt ourselves and benefit Malaysia.
We can all talk big. abt freedom, democracy , Quality of life , Living standards etc. in the end it boils down to the Job n providing for the family and spending time with them. unless each of us are born with a silver spoon. We have to work. without a job all those big stuff we talk abt don't mean nothing. Thus I am very supportive of the paper again for this. coz for 20yrs till 2030. the amount of infra building will generate business opportunities in Singapore and thus create jobs. which indirectly can let the people think and talk big abt freedom, democracy , Quality of life , Living standards etc.
the only fear mongering i see is from those who claims spore will collapse and people will become maids etc if PAP loses more seats in parliament, ha ha ha!
My interpretation of results: A lot of people trawling the online property sites window shopping, at the same time expecting govt to crash prices enough for them to afford.
This report is before or after the White Paper 2030 is announced?
We need foreigners in our economy. This is e hard truth. The govt mistake was 10-20 years ago when there is insufficient bonus for couples to have children.
its a life style not bonus. no amount of $ can push a couple who want life style to change n have kids.
its a life style not bonus. no amount of $ can push a couple who want life style to change n have kids.
you are wrong and being fallacious, yet again.
Certainly there are those who prefer to be single, but time and again surveys have shown that majority of young people - 83%, from official sources (http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporelocalnews/view/1249234/1/.html) - wants to get married and have kids. So stop laying the blame on young sporeans or lifestyle choice.
you are wrong and being fallacious, yet again.
Certainly there are those who prefer to be single, but time and again surveys have shown that majority of young people - 83%, from official sources (http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporelocalnews/view/1249234/1/.html) - wants to get married and have kids. So stop laying the blame on young sporeans or lifestyle choice.
Wants to now eventually will have. ? hah hah. so what u suggesting? government must provide open cheque for people to have kids?
maybe we should have baby farm. all ladies of legal age of 20 must enroll for 24mths. min produce 1 kid before ROD.?
I read this article of this guy asking for baby bonus. tell me that's not absurdness? he expect him n wife to get full financial support, emotional support and gratification from government. Coz have baby is a national service. If that's how the generation looks at it then its indeed sad.
Maybe we should give each family a blank cheque they can bank in for havig kids. or maybe a national baby lottery? or best pay the husband to F... their wife. a Pay per F scheme.?
To me u either luv kids or u dont. when u dont there are a million reasons why should not have 1.
Wants to now eventually will have. ? hah hah. so what u suggesting? government must provide open cheque for people to have kids?
maybe we should have baby farm. all ladies of legal age of 20 must enroll for 24mths. min produce 1 kid before ROD.?
I read this article of this guy asking for baby bonus. tell me that's not absurdness? he expect him n wife to get full financial support, emotional support and gratification from government. Coz have baby is a national service. If that's how the generation looks at it then its indeed sad.
Maybe we should give each family a blank cheque they can bank in for havig kids. or maybe a national baby lottery? or best pay the husband to F... their wife. a Pay per F scheme.?
To me u either luv kids or u dont. when u dont there are a million reasons why should not have 1.
Blank cheque? No one is asking for blank cheque. I notice you like to throw up extremes to bolster your point.
Blank cheque? No one is asking for blank cheque. I notice you like to throw up extremes to bolster your point.
Yes . problem is different people have different meaning to enough. Coz previous poster say government never give enough bonus 10yrs back. thus we have this problem.
I disagree. Coz a lot are life styles. Clubbing , traveling, climbing corporate ladders etc. yes $ can be a factor its not the only factor.
So i was trying to define what is enough? coz $ will never be enough.
Yes . problem is different people have different meaning to enough. Coz previous poster say government never give enough bonus 10yrs back. thus we have this problem.
I disagree. Coz a lot are life styles. Clubbing , traveling, climbing corporate ladders etc. yes $ can be a factor its not the only factor.
So i was trying to define what is enough? coz $ will never be enough.
Bonus doesn't always mean $. Working couples prefer more maternity leave, child-care leave, availability of infant/child care centers etc. These are more important than cash to many people.
Allthepies
10-02-13, 18:32
See below.
Not so "New Citizen".
Personal profile
Chen was born in Taiwan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan) and moved to Singapore (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapore) at the age of 11. He studied at Nanyang Primary School (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanyang_Primary_School), Catholic High School (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_High_School,_Singapore) and Anglo-Chinese School (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Chinese_School).[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chen_Show_Mao#cite_note-3) Chen was the president of the students' council at National Junior College (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Junior_College) and graduated as the top student in Singapore for the 1979 GCE Advanced Level (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapore-Cambridge_GCE_Advanced_Level) examinations,[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chen_Show_Mao#cite_note-4) scoring distinctions in various subjects.
Although Chen had yet to become a Singapore citizen, he chose to perform compulsory military service (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Singapore), officially known as National Service (NS) in Singapore. While in NS, Chen was an infantry platoon commander at the Fifth Singapore Infantry Regiment (5SIR) and as Brigade Adjutant, or DYS1, at the headquarters of the Third Singapore Infantry Brigade (3SIB).[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chen_Show_Mao#cite_note-5) He took up citizenship in 1986, six years after serving National Service.
Despite graduating as the top student for the 1979 GCE Advanced Level examinations, Chen did not gain admission into the local medical school.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chen_Show_Mao#cite_note-6) Thereupon, he pursued his undergraduate studies with major in economics at Harvard University (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvard_University). Chen graduated from Harvard University in 1986 and from Corpus Christi College (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corpus_Christi_College,_Oxford), Oxford University (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_University) in 1988, where he was a Rhodes Scholar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhodes_Scholar).[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chen_Show_Mao#cite_note-7) In 1992 Chen received his Juris Doctor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juris_Doctor) from Stanford Law School (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_Law_School) and in 2005 received his Master of Arts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_of_Arts) from Corpus Christi College (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corpus_Christi_College,_Oxford), Oxford University (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_University).[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chen_Show_Mao#cite_note-8)
Thanks.
Finally there is some proof tat foreigners turn Singaporeans can benefit Singapore.
Allthepies
10-02-13, 18:35
0% increase is very harsh to businesses.
It has the same effect as an employee having 0% annual increment every year. Go and think about it.
Owners also not selling, tha is why price will be stagnant.
They can wait till 200,000 units come and compete for buyer
:)
This report is before or after the White Paper 2030 is announced?
Quoting the CEO of iProperty in the forward portion of the report...
"Conducted for a month, 4th December 2012 – 4th January 2013"
Quoting the CEO of iProperty in the forward portion of the report...
"Conducted for a month, 4th December 2012 – 4th January 2013"
interesting to see that 45% of malaysian own more then 2 property.
PAP's white paper is an economic paper based on old models of the past, pure and simple.
It begins with the premise of 3 to 5% GDP growth and then work backwards to derive the necessary numbers to boost GDP by perspiration. All the talk by PAP about Spore core etc are just smokescreen. Non economic indicators of progress such as sustainability are completely ignored in the paper.
Economics Myths in the Great Population Debate (http://www.tremeritus.com/2013/02/09/economics-myths-in-the-great-population-debate/)
February 9th, 2013
The great John Maynard Keynes famously said that “practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.”
The debate on the Population White Paper has surfaced a number of myths and fallacies that seem to dominate the current discussion on Singapore’s population policies. Economics provides us with a very useful set of analytical tools to clarify our thinking and to develop sensible, evidence-based policies. The purpose of this essay is to examine some of the ways these myths have inadvertently, or even subconsciously, been used to justify inaccurate thinking about policies.
Myth #1: If we don’t have sufficiently large injections of foreign labour, business costs will rise, some businesses will shut down or move out of Singapore, and Singaporean workers will be laid off.
The first fallacy is a version of the misguided economic reasoning behind protectionism. The (flawed) argument for protectionism is that because our local firms cannot compete globally, they need to be subsidised by the state. By lowering costs for our firms, protectionism helps them compete against more efficient and productive foreign firms, thereby creating employment for citizens. Economists know this reasoning to be intuitively appealing, but wrong. The protection that is given to local firms does not raise their productivity; indeed, it explains their very lack of competitiveness. Meanwhile, the processes of creative destruction – the main source of dynamism in capitalist economies – are impeded, and the signals for the economy to adapt, innovate and move up the value chain are muted.
The business case for a liberal foreign worker policy rests on similarly flawed arguments. Businesses that rely on cheap foreign labour receive an implicit subsidy from the government. The low cost of labour encourages them to persist with low value-added production and discourages them from upgrading and improving their business processes. Meanwhile, cheap foreign labour discourages automation and holds down wages for citizen workers doing the same job.
Economists also know that the danger of protectionist policies comes not just from the practice of it, but also from the failure to provide an exit strategy. Countries that have benefited from the practice of protectionism are those where governments were tough enough to end protectionist policies that have outlived their usefulness.
If the Singapore government were to tighten foreign worker policies over a sustained period, there is no doubt some businesses would not be able to adapt and would have to move out of Singapore or shut down. Is this a necessarily bad thing? No, in a vibrant capitalist economy, this is exactly what we would expect. Businesses which cannot adapt should and would exit the market; the state should not be propping them up with ever more inputs of cheap labour. Their exit also frees up labour and capital resources for the growing, more productive parts of the economy.
Such “creative destruction” is a necessary part of the economic restructuring process. In economic restructuring, there will always be some firms which are disadvantaged. The economically sensible decision is not to protect these firms in their existing labour-intensive state (which imposes high social costs) through easy access to cheap foreign labour. Instead, the government can help lessen the pain in this process. For instance, it can help local SMEs by ensuring that they have access to the cheap credit, new technologies and business restructuring expertise needed to adjust and adapt to the new environment.
What about workers who are laid off and who lack the skills to move to other industries (in the same way that getting rid of protectionist barriers might raise unemployment)? Again, the economically sound answer is not to artificially prop up employment, but for the state to intervene directly to help the workers whose livelihoods are affected – through unemployment protection, higher wage subsidies through the Workforce Income Supplement, skills retraining and upgrading programmes, and one-off social transfers. Public policy should be aimed at helping workers and local firms cope with economic restructuring, not at helping uncompetitive firms that rely on cheap foreign labour stay afloat.
Myth #2: Economic growth is a zero-sum game
A second fallacy is that with the emergence of fast-growing cities in Asia, Singapore will need to maintain a certain growth rate or else it would stagnate and eventually become irrelevant. This is the essence of the “competitiveness” argument. While competitiveness might be a useful concept at the firm level, its utility at the level of cities and countries is highly doubtful. To the extent that economists use the term at all, they use it to refer to attributes such as comparative advantage, total business environment, innovation, and the quality of a country’s policies and institutions. The rate of workforce growth, especially in cheap labour, is not considered a sustainable source of competitiveness.
The argument that Singapore will stagnate if other cities in the region rise also has little basis in economics. Growth in a fast-growing and increasingly interdependent region like Asia is not a zero-sum contest. Just because Jakarta, Bangkok and Shanghai grow at a rate much faster than Singapore does not make Singaporeans any worse off. It is not the case that there is a finite amount of GDP growth for the whole world (or the region) and we must grab as large a share of it as possible. Indeed, the opposite is true. The growth of other cities in our region is more likely to raise our growth rate. The larger markets that their growth generates and the higher incomes their citizens earn should be viewed as economic opportunities for Singapore, not as “competitive” threats.
Similarly, the pursuit of foreign direct investments is also not a zero-sum game. If as a result of a more modest increase in our workforce, Singapore “loses” some investments that it would have received had it continued to grow its workforce as rapidly as before, this is not necessarily a bad thing. First, the marginal investments that we lose would probably be of the type that requires cheap labour inputs. So such investments do not raise productivity, and therefore incomes, by much. Second, such investments in lower-cost locations benefit Singapore via the standard comparative advantage argument. That is, as these lower-cost countries raise their output and and incomes, they can better afford the higher value goods and services that Singapore produces. Economic growth, rather than being a zero-sum proposition, is a positive sum one – all the more so in a fast-growing region where the individual economies are at different (and therefore, complementary) stages of development.
Myth #3: Denser, larger populations create significant economic benefits for cities
This myth has a strong element of truth to it. It is true that rich cities with larger populations enjoy something called agglomeration effects. When skilled workers cluster together, their output increases by more than the increase in the number of workers. Knowledge expands and spreads more quickly in dense cities than they do in sparsely populated ones; innovation tends thrives in denser, more populous cities. Indeed, this should have been the main argument the government uses for increasing the population and density of Singapore. So why didn’t it?
The reason is that these agglomeration effects apply only in certain industries, namely those which require highly skilled knowledge workers whose concentration generates innovation. Industries such biomedical science research, higher education, and business services like legal and management consulting clearly fall into this category. The benefits of agglomeration do not apply to low-cost, labour-intensive industries like construction, cleaning or security services. In these industries, more workers do not lead to larger increases in output per worker.
In the context of the White Paper, much of the projected increase in our labour force would be to serve our lower-skilled industries. These are exactly the industries which do not benefit from agglomeration effects but contribute to the externalities such as congestion and wage stagnation. Consequently, the argument in favour of a denser city with a larger population because of agglomeration effects does not really apply in this context.
Myth #4: Spending on healthcare and social services are costs which have to be financed by higher taxes, and are therefore a drain on the economy
The final myth is that some parts of the economy – like healthcare and social services – are a drain on the economy, while others are productive, “value-creating”, and generate “exciting jobs.” This characterisation of the economy has no basis in economic theory or evidence, although it is true that some sectors of the economy experience persistently lower productivity growth than others.
In the popular imagination, healthcare and social services are a drain on the productive parts of the economy. They have to be funded by taxpayers and are therefore seen as a cost that reduces national output. This is bad economics. Healthcare and social services, like other industries such as manufacturing, financial services or construction, also contribute to national output (or GDP) growth. Your spending in healthcare and social services is someone else’s income and his spending boosts another person’s income. So raising our spending in these two areas is not different from increasing spending in other parts of the economy. There is no economic basis for the common intuition that some industries are a cost while others are a form of investment.
What about the fact that healthcare and social services have to be financed by taxation? Doesn’t that mean they are a drag on the economy? Again, there is little economic basis for that argument. Many other things are financed by taxation too – MRT lines, public housing, law and order, security – but we don’t view these as a drag on the economy. Indeed, we may even see these things as productive investments.
But won’t taxes have to rise sharply to finance our higher spending on healthcare and social services? Not necessarily. First, Singapore has large fiscal surpluses which can be used to finance a well-planned expansion of such services in a sustainable way. Second, if productivity increases and people’s incomes across-the-board rise, we should be able to afford the rising costs of healthcare.
The real issue in healthcare spending is how the risks of incurring high healthcare costs are allocated. Most economists argue that given the low-frequency, high-impact nature of many medical contingencies, the most efficient way of financing healthcare would be through some form of risk-pooling or social insurance. That Singapore lacks a comprehensive and universal health insurance programme, combined with the fact that the bulk of healthcare spending currently comes from out-of-pocket payments, suggests that we can have a more equitable healthcare financing system without compromising on its efficiency.
With an ageing population, won’t rising health and social care expenditures hurt our economic dynamism, as it has in Japan and other rapidly ageing societies? Perhaps, but not for the reasons that are commonly cited. Health and social care services tend to experience slower-than-average productivity growth. This is because they are more dependent on labour, and are much less amenable to automation and other labour-saving technological improvements. But despite productivity growth in healthcare and social services being lower than in other industries (such as manufacturing or ICT), wages in these “stagnant” sectors rise just as fast as they do in other sectors because if they did not, workers would leave these sectors. This means costs and prices rise in healthcare and social services rise faster than they do in other parts of the economy. Over time, healthcare and other social services will take up a larger share of our incomes – both individually and nationally. But this outcome does not spell doom. As long as we sustain labour productivity growth at historical rates of about 2%, we can afford more of everything even as the share of healthcare and social services in our total spending rises.
The real risk of the “cost disease” (a term coined by the economist, William Baumol) is not that health and social care costs are rising, but that policymakers misdiagnose the problem and deal with it in a kneejerk way. For instance, they may shift a larger share of the rising costs to citizens. This doesn’t solve the underlying problem and may, in fact, make the problem worse as privatised healthcare is likely to experience faster cost inflation than socialised healthcare.
Conclusion
These myths exist because they seem to be intuitively correct. They appeal to our everyday experiences, and are consistent with popular accounts of the economy. These popular accounts include the idea that cities or countries are locked in economic competition with one another, or that jobs must be protected in order for workers to be protected. Our experience with health and social care as costs we try to avoid also explains our intuition that at the national level, this must also apply. But these stories, although consistent and coherent to us, are neither correct nor valid. As cognitive psychologists have found, people tend to rely on explanations that are consistent with their own experiences or with conventional wisdom, rather than on careful deliberation and reasoned analysis.
Economics is not, and should not be, the only lens through which we examine, analyse and debate our country’s population policies. But when we do apply economics analysis, we should try to get it right.
Donald Low, Yeoh Lam Keong, Tan Kim Song, Manu Bhaskaran
* The authors, writing in their personal capacities, are vice-presidents of the Economic Society of Singapore. (http://www.ess.org.sg/)
Article first appeared on http://ipscommons.sg/ (http://ipscommons.sg/)
thomastansb
10-02-13, 22:19
A lifetime? Hmm..
Assuming 200k loan for 30 years @ 2.6%, one has to repay $800 a month. If the couple earns $1,450 x 2 = 2.9k a month. The couple has to fork out $65 cash a month in cash with the rest being serviced by CPF. I don't see why need 5k income to buy 220k house.
Slave of the bank? That is why I say Singaporeans are daft. They have no idea what is asset, what is liability and what is debt, especially low interest debt.
Lastly, if the couple don't want to pay $65 in cash a month, there is always 3 bedroom HDB. And we are assuming the couple don't get pay increment, don't get bonus for the rest of their life - which is impossible if Singapore keeps growing. Unless people are becoming daft and want Singapore to stop growing.
Financial tools are widely available yet some people just don't bother to go find out. Not the first time I heard need a lifetime and 5k salary to buy BTO anyway.
Hahaha... Affordable? $220k is not expensive if you are earning $5-6k a month.. For some one who earn $1450 a month that will need mean he have to use his entire life to repay. Unless he can move out of that class of job, or else he will be the slave of the banks for his entire life. Although it is not the fault of the government as how much a person earn all depend on himself. Cannot because expensive and cannot afford then blame government. Have to think why don't have money and cannot earn more. But I feel the government can say the truth, if you think things are expensive means u r not capable enough to earn more money to afford those things. Complaining are for losers only. If not happy go and vote for opp. Don't everyday complain but when come polling still vote for the same thing again. This is typical loser behavior. Got time to complain why don't go and upgrade and earn more and stop waiting for things to happen.
PAP's white paper is an economic paper based on old models of the past, pure and simple.
It begins with the premise of 3 to 5% GDP growth and then work backwards to derive the necessary numbers to boost GDP by perspiration. All the talk by PAP about Spore core etc are just smokescreen. Non economic indicators of progress such as sustainability are completely ignored in the paper.
Population White Paper Deconstructed (http://www.tremeritus.com/2013/02/09/population-white-paper-deconstructed/)
February 9th, 2013
The main thrust of the white paper appears to be a discussion on the proposed role of immigration in solving Singapore’s pending demographic problem. For such a long awaited and crucial government planning document, it is unfortunately an extreme disappointment – light on detailed analysis and justification with regards to too many factors and assumptions.
In fact the attention to detail at times is so lacking that it is hard to interpret the document as what it claims to be – a “population white paper” – and in fact easier to see it as a lazy blue print for unsustainable economic growth instead.
For example, the most obvious questions regarding Singapore’s future population revolve around our total fertility rate (TFR). Firstly – why is Singapore’s TFR so low? I have read every page of the white paper and this question is not even asked let alone answered. Secondly – what should we do to increase our TFR? The white paper devotes one short paragraph out of it’s 78 pages to this question:
“Raising Singapore’s birth rate is also critical to maintaining our strong Singaporean core and addressing our demographic challenge. This requires the community, employers, families and individual Singaporeans to make the right choices and decisions, collectively and individually.”
It is interesting to note that this, the only paragraph in the white paper which describes raising Singapore’s birth rate, makes no mention of the role the government should play. Community, employers, families and individuals all have a role to play, but apparently not the government. It is hard to believe that this oversight does not stem from a deliberate decision not to ask the previous question regarding why Singapore has such a low TFR. Many would blame the government for the high cost of living, difficulty and delays in buying a home and the extremely long working hours many suffer in a struggle to make ends meet. Many would therefore also look to the government to rectify these problems with a view to improving Singapore’s TFR, but it seems the government will not be forthcoming.
In defence of the white paper it does present a list of government social policies broadly in support of family life and child raising. However these appear to stand somewhat alone from the rest of the white paper, almost as an afterthought. The role these policies play in solving Singapore’s demographic challenges, the intent or otherwise of the government to support our TFR, any suggestions for future family planning policies to reduce Singapore’s dependency on foreign workers by encouraging more births are all questions which again go completely unasked.
This lack of rigour in failing to ask, let alone answer, the most important demographic questions is one of the main reasons why I state above that it is hard to interpret the paper as what it claims to be – a “population white paper”.
* * *
So what does the white paper talk about? The main metrics it appears to rely on are population, productivity and GDP. From the executive summary:
“Up to 2020, if we can achieve 2% to 3% productivity growth per year (which is an ambitious stretch target), and maintain overall workforce growth at 1% to 2%, then we can get 3% to 5% GDP growth on average.”
And in the next paragraph
“We may see GDP growth of between 2% and 3% per year from 2020 to 2030.”
I feel these points are key to understanding the true premise of the white paper. GDP appears to be described as a goal, something to be achieved. The equation can be seen as population + productivity = GDP. Population, supposedly the driving force of this paper, is in fact just an input, and GDP is the result. One only has to have the most cursory understanding of Singaporean politics to know that the PAP love few things more than GDP growth. It appears therefore to me that the document is merely an excuse to use Singapore’s upcoming demographic challenges as justification for fueling GDP growth by expanding the population of workers. In fact many (including a Nobel prize winning economist) have commented recently that this has been the governments sole economic policy for some time now.
Of course the white paper tries to avoid presenting itself in these terms. It presents various other parameters and observations in support of the hypothesis that demographics are driving the population and thus immigration aspects of government policy. Below I will analyse some of these, attempt to show that they do not hold water in a convincing fashion and encourage the reader to discard them. If they are to be discarded, the conclusion I suggest we are left with is the one I describe above, that the white paper is using the goal of GDP growth to drive population and, indirectly, immigration targets.
First of all let us talk of calibration – are the solutions presented by the white paper aligned to really solve the problems it warns us of? The white paper purports to be driven by pressing demographic changes – it talks of a “turning point in 2012″ when the first cohort of baby boomers turned 65 and suggests that we need to act now. The paper also speaks of a decline in working age citizens from 2020 and a decline in the citizen population itself from 2025. The paper further warns us:
“These significant demographic issues will quickly be upon us. We need to take action early, so that we can address them in a measured and calibrated way”
Clearly there is a multifaceted demographic challenge facing Singapore, which has already begun, and which will continue over the next seven to twelve years and beyond. But in response to this multifaced challenge, the white paper presents only very blunt answers – workforce growth of between 1% and 2% per year until 2020 and around 1% from 2020 to 2030. 15-25k new citizens per year. 30k new PRs per year. Where are the projections, the alignment, the calibration? Why not defuse the demographic time bomb by matching immigration to projected population trends? The white paper actually alludes to the challenge not being quite so immediate – our citizen workforce is in fact still growing today, and will continue to grow until 2020. So why not calibrate, and start from a much lower baseline of immigration today and increase the number over time as growing numbers of our workforce move into retirement? Why a blanket number of new citizens every year?
If we will only see a decline in the citizen population after 2025, then why act now? Let us plan now, but plan to act in 2025 – if at that time we still believe that we need to grow the number of citizens, then we can. The white paper clearly tries to make all the right noises, but in looking at the details, we can see too many gaps. Does the white paper really aim to solve complex demographic challenges, without any callibration between cause and effect? Or is it actually a justification of existing and continuing policy – ultra liberal on immigration to support unproductive and inefficient industries in an attempt to keep Singapore’s GDP growing for some ill defined reason?
Second let us talk of the lack of explanation – the white paper presents various concerns which it alleges to solve through immigration. But it doesn’t always explain whether the “problem” is really something that needs solving, or why immigration is even the answer. We can see this in the discussion of “support ratios”. As Singaporean society ages, we are told there will be less younger workers to support the aged. The paper tells us the support ratio today is 5.9 whereas in 2030 it will be 2.1. But there doesn’t seem to be any explanation of what is a sustainable support ratio for Singapore. Bizarrely the paper presents support ratios merely in terms of the citizen population, which is hugely disingenuous since Singapore already has a huge population of immigrant workers, and our support ratio values should be taken to be much higher. But what of the demographic challenge? Perhaps in Singapore a support ratio of 2.1 is perfectly manageable?
The importance of a support ratio in society is typically to do with funding welfare spending and safety nets. In many countries, the public services provided to the elderly today are paid for from the taxes of today. In those countries, an aging population presents a significant challenge in terms of paying for more welfare for the elderly from a shrinking base of working taxpayers. Singapore is not one of those countries. The PAP’s aversion to welfare spending is known to all. Singaporeans are expected to look after themselves in old age and the large numbers of our elderly who sell tissues and collect cardboard is a reflection of this. So it is hard to imagine that lower support ratios are a significant challenge for Singapore, certainly not one that would justify ramping the population up to 6.9 million, when our current crop of foreign workers should be more than adequate. That the white paper even bothers to bring this up without suitable explanation or analysis is just frustrating, it could easily be seen as an attempt to convince people of the need for immigration when perhaps the need is not really there.
To conclude – for the reasons outlined above, it is hard to interpret the white paper as what it claims to be – a solution to upcoming demographic challenges through immigration – increasing the population to 6.9 million along the way to a dynamic Singapore. Rather, since the most important questions on Singaporean demographics have not been asked, let alone answered, the premise that demographics are driving this document is not well made out. Further, the government’s growth equation “population + productivity = GDP” reveals the true driving force behind this plan – that population is an input and GDP is the result, a result we all know the PAP craves. The inability of the document to calibrate its immigration solution to the complex, multifaceted nature of the upcoming demographic challenges facing Singapore betrays this reality – that GDP not demographics is driving the policy. Finally, when the paper does attempt to support itself with reference to demographics, specifically support ratios, the lack of analysis or explanation makes the argument wholly unconvincing. As many others have noted, I must too conclude. The “population white paper” is nothing of the sort, it is actually just a means to justify the PAP’s long standing goal of maximising GDP, and since the ruling party appears to have run out of ideas many years ago, they resort to the age old tactic of increasing labour inputs.
Andy Wong
Big debate on S’pore’s future (http://www.tremeritus.com/2013/02/10/big-debate-on-s%e2%80%99pore%e2%80%99s-future/)
February 10th, 2013
Proposal to expand the population, that will make the island nation the world’s third densest country by 2030, has stirred active discussion on a most crucial issue.
THIS week’s article may one day prove to have touched on one of the most important issues that will decide the kind of lives Singaporean families will live.
I am referring to the national debate on a Population White Paper that sets a 6.9 million people target for the Republic, making it the world’s third densest country by 2030.
Because it aims at expanding it by another 30% in just 17 years, the issue and its urgency, now debated in Parliament, have predictably stirred public anger.
According to the paper, the government intends to increase the number of permanent residents (PRs) annually by 30,000, and new citizenships by 15,000–25,000 a year.
By 2030, nearly half (45%) the population will be made up of foreigners.
With only 710sq km of land, this island is already showing strains of inadequate housing, transport and healthcare posed by the population recently hitting 5.3 million.
Yet to analysts of Mr Lee Kuan Yew’s People’s Action Party (PAP) another push to 6.9 million is not surprising, although in his latter years his fervour seems to have cooled slightly.
Whether one believes the 6.9 million is a target or a projection (as the government claims) is irrelevant to the real world.
It plans it that way and the people expect this to happen.
Still it will merely represent the second, possibly last, major phase of a long-term PAP population expansion plan started in 1990.
Some regard this as the dogged pursuit of Lee’s long-term vision of a large global city. Others say it is for economic growth.
In the first phase, the population grew from 3.05 million in 1990 to top five million in 2010, or about one million immigrants a decade. That just happened – no consultation, no Green or White Paper.
Now comes the second – and more controversial – phase which will raise the population to 6.5-6.9 million by 2030 – about half of it being foreigners.
The infrastructure expansion first-time was ill-prepared, resulting in Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong apologising to the nation for the poor housing and public transportation.
Now even as the government is still working to put right that mess comes the new expansion proposal.
Since I began working as a foreign correspondent in 1960, I have had experience with two national leaders in Southeast Asia proclaiming a similar ambition for larger populations.
This was in the early 70’s. The first was Thailand’s dictator, General Prapas Charusathian who wanted his country’s then 35 million to be increased to 100 million.
I was then based in Bangkok.
The pot-bellied general, who spoke no English, would hold a weekly press conference in Thai for his own journalists.
Fortunately for us, the US Embassy issued regular transcripts in English to help the foreign press.
The general said in a folksy way that Thailand’s population was too small to command respect from neighbouring countries.
He was probably referring to China and Vietnam seen as a potential threat in those days.
I remember him quoted as saying: “If we have 100 million or 120 million Thais, people would respect us more.”
That was three times bigger. Today it is 70 million.
Next was former Malaysian Prime Minister Tun Dr Mahathir Mohamad who said his nation, then with a population of less than 14 million, needed at least 70 million people to be a middle economic power.
Both these were bigger countries than Singapore.
While these leaders shared the same ambition for larger populations to achieve influence or better economic scale, there was a difference. Singapore alone acted on its plan.
It could prove to be foolhardy that will bring down the ruling People’s Action Party (PAP) given the strong unpopularity or may establish it as a unique achievement.
While the Parliament debate raged, news came that Singapore had become the sixth most expensive city in the world to live in, a drop from ninth place. So there’s another high price to pay.
In Asia it has the third highest cost of living.
According to the paper, three groups of foreigners will be in demand.
Firstly, those who support the city’s social needs, such as healthcare and eldercare workers, and the second will be low-skilled workers like construction, retail and food services.
The third group that Singapore will welcome will continue to be global talent with cutting-edge skills and abilities.
At one stage of the debate Prime Minister Lee admitted that his government did not have 20-20 foresight when it failed to prepare for the foreign influx.
But his ministers assured Singaporeans this time they will get it right, with a series of measures to handle the enlarged population, including:
> Increasing land-mass by 8%, raising it from 710sq km to 766sq km. Even a number of golf courses will be knocked off; and
> Building 700,000 new homes and doubling the Mass Rapid Transit tracks, while healthcare planning is to be brought forward by 10 years.
So far, the plan has been strongly opposed by the public and every opposition party.
The biggest Workers Party asked that the proposed population be cut from 6.9 million to 5.9 million but it was turned down.
The public was “furious” according to a Yahoo News report.
A public rally is being planned at Speakers Corner for Feb 16.
The Minister for Environment and Water Resources, Vivian Balakrishnan said on a Facebook post titled: “Political suicide vs demographic extinction” that the government was aware of the political risk.
“But it is worth taking,” he added. “We are facing the crisis of our lifetime … Our citizen population will halve every two generations.”
Seah Chiang Nee
Chiang Nee has been a journalist for 40 years. He is a true-blooded Singaporean, born, bred and says that he hopes to die in Singapore. He worked as a Reuters corespondent between 1960-70, based in Singapore but with various assignments in Southeast Asia, including a total of about 40 months in (then South) Vietnam between 1966-1970. In 1970, he left to work for Singapore Herald, first as Malaysia Bureau Chief and later as News Editor before it was forced to close after a run-in with the Singapore Government. He then left Singapore to work for The Asian, the world’s first regional weekly newspaper, based in Bangkok to cover Thailand and Indochina for two years between 1972-73. Other jobs: News Editor of Hong Kong Standard (1973-74), Foreign Editor of Straits Times with reporting assignments to Asia, Europe, Africa, the Middle East and The United States (1974-82) and Editor of Singapore Monitor (1982-85). Since 1986, he has been a columnist for the Malaysia’s The Star newspaper. Article first appeared in his blog, http://www.littlespeck.com.
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A lifetime? Hmm..
Assuming 200k loan for 30 years @ 2.6%, one has to repay $800 a month. If the couple earns $1,450 x 2 = 2.9k a month. The couple has to fork out $65 cash a month in cash with the rest being serviced by CPF. I don't see why need 5k income to buy 220k house.
Slave of the bank? That is why I say Singaporeans are daft. They have no idea what is asset, what is liability and what is debt, especially low interest debt.
Lastly, if the couple don't want to pay $65 in cash a month, there is always 3 bedroom HDB. And we are assuming the couple don't get pay increment, don't get bonus for the rest of their life - which is impossible if Singapore keeps growing. Unless people are becoming daft and want Singapore to stop growing.
Financial tools are widely available yet some people just don't bother to go find out. Not the first time I heard need a lifetime and 5k salary to buy BTO anyway.
Debt is debt. No matter how you phase it.. It is still debt. You can do all you want and say it is good debt.. but in the end someone have to feed the bill. It is either now or later. Just like USA and Europe. Why they are in the shit now? Before 2008, I believe American also believe in good debt and low interest. What happen in the end, I think we all still remember.
As for your calculation about 30 years, we are talking about 30 years here. How many years of working life you have? We start work around 20 plus. let say buy house around 25. so can finish the loan at 55 year? So how long can one life after 55 years?
I am not saying loan is not good but it is a method that kill 1k enemy troop have to sacrifice 800 of own troops and should be use as a last resort. We should not say it is affordable because we can take loan.
Debt is debt. No matter how you phase it.. It is still debt. You can do all you want and say it is good debt.. but in the end someone have to feed the bill. It is either now or later. Just like USA and Europe. Why they are in the shit now? Before 2008, I believe American also believe in good debt and low interest. What happen in the end, I think we all still remember.
As for your calculation about 30 years, we are talking about 30 years here. How many years of working life you have? We start work around 20 plus. let say buy house around 25. so can finish the loan at 55 year? So how long can one life after 55 years?
I am not saying loan is not good but it is a method that kill 1k enemy troop have to sacrifice 800 of own troops and should be use as a last resort. We should not say it is affordable because we can take loan.
Can name a city that has singapore equivalent of peace, low crime, good infrastructure, cleanliness, low coruption, yet the housing take less than 10yrs to repay? Pls dont quote me rural housing. Need to compare apple to apple. City to city.
With all the above comments, even our own people don't stand up for our rights or sing the same tune. No wonder the foreigners are laughing at us, calling us dogs! Have u even seen any western welcome the Asians even though the new immigrants contributed to their country? If these ang mo can't even do so, so who are they to lecture us? I don't welcome 6.9 mio foreigners, I don't care if I can't get any rental income, I am just worried of our own people. There are so many shameless and selfish people who only care for themselves. Do you guys have any children already serving NS, looking for a job or planning to get married? Who gives a f about economic growth when grow or don't grow WE don't even get anything out of it?
Debts are used by all listed companies, so based on what you said, govt should ban all these companies from borrowing from banks, issuing bonds and other form of debt instruments? :scared-2:
Debt is debt. No matter how you phase it.. It is still debt. You can do all you want and say it is good debt.. but in the end someone have to feed the bill. It is either now or later. Just like USA and Europe. Why they are in the shit now? Before 2008, I believe American also believe in good debt and low interest. What happen in the end, I think we all still remember.
As for your calculation about 30 years, we are talking about 30 years here. How many years of working life you have? We start work around 20 plus. let say buy house around 25. so can finish the loan at 55 year? So how long can one life after 55 years?
I am not saying loan is not good but it is a method that kill 1k enemy troop have to sacrifice 800 of own troops and should be use as a last resort. We should not say it is affordable because we can take loan.
Lastly, when will all these foreigners just mind their own business for Goodness sake! Go get converted to citizenship then talk.
Lastly, when will all these foreigners just mind their own business for Goodness sake! Go get converted to citizenship then talk.
Foreigners are important, they serve healthcare, maids, construction, they work shift, weekends, holidays. Without foreign nurses we will be in trouble when we get old and sick. Whenever i go to garden by the bay i am proud of Singapore achievement and all of the new hdb, condo, roads, mrt tunnels, marina bay sands, rws are built by foreign workers without them things can't be done.
Everyone talk about children. I think singapore children are very lucky and over protected by parents. Malaysia chinese teenage already travel to singapore to work and stay, very independent. If children can't take stress or competiton here they can't survive anywhere. Philipines and indonesia very young age already work as maid, here sg children still relaxing at home and their only job is study.
Some Ang moh countries children even more stress, their countries already in trillions of debts awaiting for them to repay. I am grateful we r in sg.
rymccondo77
11-02-13, 02:34
Foreigners are important, they serve healthcare, maids, construction, they work shift, weekends, holidays. Without foreign nurses we will be in trouble when we get old and sick. Whenever i go to garden by the bay i am proud of Singapore achievement and all of the new hdb, condo, roads, mrt tunnels, marina bay sands, rws are built by foreign workers without them things can't be done.
When my father-in-law was hospitalised last year, I think at least half of the nurses nursing him were foreigners (including one Japan born nurse - she could be married to a Singaporean).
Greed and more greed, eonomic growth at all cost, at any cost, especially with more foreigners than Singaporeans in our own country . . . will lead to more unhappiness. Don't we want our children and their children to be happy rather than to keep counting how much money we have and how much we are going to make whether from property or otherwise? At its core, happiness consists of being healthy, having good food to feed ourselves and our family and enough money to do what we want and buy what we need. For most people that entails a nice home, a job, decent clothes, cable TV and other forms of entertainment, good times with family and friends. Furthermore, happiness means being able to speak what's on our mind without fear, to worship the God of our choosing, and to feel safe and secure in our own home.
The World's Happiest Countries:
1. Norway
2. Denmark
3. Sweden
4. Australia
5. New Zealand
6. Canada
7. Finland
8. The Netherlands
9. Switzerland
10. Ireland
. . . . according to Legatum Institute, a nonpartisan think tank which set out to rank the happiest countries in the world.
Luxembourg is the healthiest nation on Earth. Iceland is the safest. Switzerland has the world’s best economy and governance, according to Legatum. Overall, Norway takes the prize.
Does Singapore rank so highly as some of us seem to think? Maybe we know something the rest of the world doesn't.
Greed and more greed, eonomic growth at all cost, at any cost, even with more foreigners than Singaporeans in our country . . . will lead to more unhappiness. Don't we want our children and their children to be happy rather than to keep counting how much money they have and how much they are going to make whether from property or otherwise? At its core, happiness consists of being healthy, having good food to feed ourselves and our family and enough to money to do what we want and buy what we need. For most people that entails a nice home, a job, decent clothes, cable TV and other forms of entertainment, good times with family and friends.
Furthermore, happiness means being able to speak what's on your mind without fear, to worship the God of your choosing, and to feel safe and secure in our own home.
The World's Happiest Countries:
1. Norway
2. Denmark
3. Sweden
4. Australia
5. New Zealand
6. Canada
7. Finland
8. The Netherlands
9. Switzerland
10. Ireland
. . . . according to Legatum Institute, a nonpartisan think tank which set out to rank the happiest countries in the world.
Luxembourg is the healthiest nation on Earth. Iceland is the safest. Switzerland has the world’s best economy and governance, according to Legatum.
Does Singapore rank so highly as some of us seem to think. Maybe we know something the rest of the world doesn't.
well said and exactly one of the points that the youth of today are gripping with. We do not deny that the incumbent government in instrumental in the founding years of our country - but the name of economic growth above all else mantra needs to be moderated a bit to allow us as a country to take stock.
no one is saying deport all foreigners. Let the immigration rate be moderated lower, and thus allow everyone some breathing space to integrate.
I have personally seen both foreigners and singaporeans alike refusing ti give up seat for pregnant ladies - this was not the case a decade back when there is some civility left and no such dense overcrowding and strain on our tpt infrastructure.
THe government is indeed doing better with the promised big supply of public housing and ECs and BTOs ... but if this only looks nice ON PAPER if there is also a 7 million target/worst case scenario (whatever you call it) that is upcoming as well .... essentially becoming a zero sum game with no real increase in supply of residential properties what with the bigger influx of talents into singapore.
What I have said truly reflect the views most colleagues of the similiar age group I am in - all of us are of course eligible voters whom will not hesitiate to vote the other way if we do not see further moderation
Debt is debt. No matter how you phase it.. It is still debt. You can do all you want and say it is good debt.. but in the end someone have to feed the bill. It is either now or later. Just like USA and Europe. Why they are in the shit now? Before 2008, I believe American also believe in good debt and low interest. What happen in the end, I think we all still remember.
As for your calculation about 30 years, we are talking about 30 years here. How many years of working life you have? We start work around 20 plus. let say buy house around 25. so can finish the loan at 55 year? So how long can one life after 55 years?
I am not saying loan is not good but it is a method that kill 1k enemy troop have to sacrifice 800 of own troops and should be use as a last resort. We should not say it is affordable because we can take loan.
agree with this. To say that today private residential prices are affordable merely because from a 30 year loan quantum perspective really begs the question and mentality of the government.
gone were the days that taking a 15 years loan to service mortgage is regarded as normal. Now 30 years loan is the norm - do we want to wait for another 10 years from now and say its normal for a mortgage loan to be serviced by TWO GENERATIONS like that of Japan?
This has to be moderated and it has to be done now, when our vote matters a difference.
We are not unreasonable pple. Far from it (at least for me) i do listen to good reason - but pls no "top down" approach dictating what needs to be done FOR US
Wants to now eventually will have. ? hah hah. so what u suggesting? government must provide open cheque for people to have kids?
maybe we should have baby farm. all ladies of legal age of 20 must enroll for 24mths. min produce 1 kid before ROD.?
I read this article of this guy asking for baby bonus. tell me that's not absurdness? he expect him n wife to get full financial support, emotional support and gratification from government. Coz have baby is a national service. If that's how the generation looks at it then its indeed sad.
Maybe we should give each family a blank cheque they can bank in for havig kids. or maybe a national baby lottery? or best pay the husband to F... their wife. a Pay per F scheme.?
To me u either luv kids or u dont. when u dont there are a million reasons why should not have 1.
I think this is a tad extreme - no one here in this thread is saying the government needs to provide a blank cheque as a means of helping outside not vote for them .... this sounds ridiculous and far fetched.
Such arguments to me does not make good sense - is it too much to ask the government to have more discussion and more media coverage pre the white paper? No one asks for a referendum (although i think the NSP is - which I think is not 100 percent appropriate).
Simply more consultation and more deliberation from the pple - and pple here I mean NOT only amongst the ministries - is it too much to ask?
Lets not confuse the discussion here: we are talking about the counter-proposal or position of a substantial grp of pple here not very happy with the current state of affairs - not the single unreasonable "I want a blank cheque from the government" voter here.
They can wait till 200,000 units come and compete for buyer
:)
heh - time is on the side of the Buyer basis current regime, of course everything could be thrown sideways with another cooling measure.
At least I can see the government being more pro-active (but is this because of the by-election effect earlier?)
time will tell :cheers1:
Pls stand corrected.
""The Workers’ Party has presented an extreme scenario as a plausible choice for Singaporeans. It proposes to immediately stop any increase in foreign workforce until 2020, capping it at the current levels; and it further proposes that we should rely exclusively on increasing our resident workforce by 1%."
ZERO increase till 2020 means no more workers. with that will fan inflation on labor cost. creating shortage. Forcing business out and inevitability job losses. Also if we so much need to build homes. how to we build faster like some Singaporean wants? ( asap) wihtout more work force?
1.2M.. u are talking abt private housing. that is a free market. There are affordable housing that the entry lawyer can explore. buy from HDB. BTO 3 bedder 164K , 5 bed room 340K. That to me are very affordable for a entry lawyer. Its not the government role to ensure that everyone must afford private housing. Since when it was that way? next is what? becoz after study must also means daunting to own a Car? then what else? min 2-3 holidays a year? If cannot achieve such daunting achievements its the system fault?
The government can provide the citizen with the tools and environment to compete in the world arena. i.e. housing, medical, education and a stable environment. We cannot be expecting the government ensure we achieve all out 5 Cs one we get out to work. Lets be realistic abt that.
You are right in saying that the government should not and its not their obligation to ensure private housing for all. They should only allow for affordable public housing for all.
Is public housing at the CCR regions affordable for all basis current resale prices? I am not that sure. Its tending towards condo prices of the last decade. Should the government ensure more affordability for this ? Of course !
And with the latest argument that resale HDB prices are somewhat LINKED to private housing, and it appears that the private housing segment prices are skyrocketing basis past years - it is undeniable that such resale "prime" HDBs are becoming a thing of the past in terms of affordability.
If our Singapore housing regime is very clearcut: i.e. Public Housing is affordable regardless, private housing basis private market movement and willing buyer willing seller basis - I will gladly and fully say this is fair.
And I did not even mention in any of my posts for the government to "hand me" the 5 Cs - I did not even say government must pay COndos cheap for me to buy. I am saying condo prices are just a tad high and unreachable for most singaporeans. Not pointing something out merely for personal gain - its a general sentiment.
Maybe this is not felt by you, it sure does by my books.
After three years of my first job (quite a number of years back, I must admit), with my salary of $1,800 (combined with my then grilfriend's $1,500) . . . we could quite easily afford our first home - a walk-up FH apartment in a prime district, for $300,000.
So is my generation worse off or better off than today's generation? We worked shorter hours. Education was less stressful. Our money could go a lot further.
How can property be deemed affordable today? I fear for my children. Wages may creep up . . . but property, cars, everything else will escalate, especially with all the foreigners in our midst. So what price economic growth if we have to slog and stress and strain?
You would not be able to please the whole nation. Want full consultative? tats taiwan style. Thus they get no where. MA Jin Jiu so worry abt election results that his administration just cant do anything . No tough decisions. Coz always there will be people who dont want the policies. So its imperative that hard decisions have to be made for the long term plan for the nation.
Why would the current PAP so free? u think they dont know this White paper will be a firestorm? Why not just sweep it under the carpet come 2030 let the new guys sort it out. They can cruise along happy happy give the people what they want. feel good and happy. then times come wipe hands n pass on. coz its a 20yrs later problem.
The thing is the TFT ration is low. even today everyone of us go on a productivity drive. and make babies. and we have say a sudden TFT 2.0 type result for next 20 yrs. the 1st batch of workers wont hit the market till 2035. and those are mostly fresh grad without experience.
Thus there are a urgency to 1. make the nation see the urgency. 2. have a plan.
Workers party plans are kicking the bucket down the road.
1. freeze FT workers till 2020 then 1% growth.
2. at the same time encourage people to pro create. what if the encouragement dont work? and the economy thank becoz of that? job losses etc? ( its also common statics birth rates are lower when economy are poorer) this will send us into the hole we cannot climb out of. by then u want FT injection? no economy why will the FT be coming anyway?
So I am totally supportive of the hard decision the WP put out. At least its a logical plan ahead till 2030.
Your being full support of the white paper is of course one view. Mine is just another. No right and wrong here. The hard approach as posted by the white paper indeed should be tweaked and further consultation should be done.
No one is asking for FULL consultation - pls do not twist my words. I am saying there should be more discussion and of course this does not mean full consensus before releasing the white paper - this is not attainable.
You are in tandem with the government's doomsday theory and hand me down approach to citizens. This may well sit with certain segments of the singapore populace here - but surely not with some other segments whom think that more discussion does not mean more disagreement.
Worker's party proposal is not perfect and I do not profess to enlist full support for it. Neither is the incumbent government's proposal - surely we can have agreement on this point? :beats-me-man:
After three years of my first job (quite a number of years back, I must admit), with my salary of $1,800 (combined with my then grilfriend's $1,500) . . . we could quite easily afford our first home - a walk-up FH apartment in a prime district, for $300,000.
So is my generation worse off or better off than today's generation? We worked shorter hours. Education was less stressful. Our money could go a lot further.
How can property be deemed affordable today? I fear for my children. Wages may creep up . . . but property, cars, everything else will escalate, especially with all the foreigners in our midst. So what price economic growth if we have to slog and stress and strain?
that time was the government that I respected the most. I am not so sure now when I also fear for the future of my kids going forward with property prices being so high. Will it comes to a point where they can only afford property outside of Singapore e.g. Iskandar? And they commute everyday to work in Singapore? I am not sure - this is a main reason why I do not want to have more kids unless I am sure the Singapore of tomorrow can hold some hope for my kids
that is ZERO growth.. so no new business? business that need expanding here how? cannot find people to do the work?
also to elaborate so business need to grow to survive. they cannot stay stagnant. i.e. why u see Toast box everywhere for example? every shop make $? no. but they cannot stop.
Sorry I not trying to sounding unfriendly. I am just being blunt. Coz there are a lot of mis information and rumour mongering. Fear generating more fear.
I am just telling u folks what I am seeing in the business scene. Business are starting to move to JB. Cost for the same group of FT are spiking coz shortage and no Singaporean want to do the job, even MNC are hiring the FT base in Malaysia but for now report to singapore bosses.
To me this are worrying signs. If we move this too far. we hurt ourselves and benefit Malaysia.
We can all talk big. abt freedom, democracy , Quality of life , Living standards etc. in the end it boils down to the Job n providing for the family and spending time with them. unless each of us are born with a silver spoon. We have to work. without a job all those big stuff we talk abt don't mean nothing. Thus I am very supportive of the paper again for this. coz for 20yrs till 2030. the amount of infra building will generate business opportunities in Singapore and thus create jobs. which indirectly can let the people think and talk big abt freedom, democracy , Quality of life , Living standards etc.
Not saying we should trash the white paper altogether. It does show some merits and I will agree that its feeds people with jobs.
Why single out Malaysia - I do not think this sits well with pple here.
No one is talking BIG about freedom of speech and democracy and all ... but should economic growth be the KEY for the current style of governance?
Fear of defamation/libel lawsuits are becoming a norm here - this just sounds a tad wrong if you ask me.
Lets strive for a middle ground - some growth is required (this tweak workers party proposal) and moderate talents influx or ramp up MORE of residental housing (this tweaking incumbent government white paper) - too hard to ask?
Must it always be the government's way or NO WAY all the time?
Not saying we should trash the white paper altogether. It does show some merits and I will agree that its feeds people with jobs.
Why single out Malaysia - I do not think this sits well with pple here.
No one is talking BIG about freedom of speech and democracy and all ... but should economic growth be the KEY for the current style of governance?
Fear of defamation/libel lawsuits are becoming a norm here - this just sounds a tad wrong if you ask me.
Lets strive for a middle ground - some growth is required (this tweak workers party proposal) and moderate talents influx or ramp up MORE of residental housing (this tweaking incumbent government white paper) - too hard to ask?
Must it always be the government's way or NO WAY all the time?
I am not singling out Malaysia. I am just saying what I see.
interesting to see that 45% of malaysian own more then 2 property.
PH wasn't included. If so, it will be even more astounding. From speaking with a pinoy colleague, typically they would own upwards of 5 or more, coz each is so cheap.
Here he only earn enough to lease share a HDB. Back home he gets chaffeured around.
Not saying we should trash the white paper altogether. It does show some merits and I will agree that its feeds people with jobs.
Why single out Malaysia - I do not think this sits well with pple here.
No one is talking BIG about freedom of speech and democracy and all ... but should economic growth be the KEY for the current style of governance?
Fear of defamation/libel lawsuits are becoming a norm here - this just sounds a tad wrong if you ask me.
Lets strive for a middle ground - some growth is required (this tweak workers party proposal) and moderate talents influx or ramp up MORE of residental housing (this tweaking incumbent government white paper) - too hard to ask?
Must it always be the government's way or NO WAY all the time?
Too add....
GDP is a baramometer. It might not the only tool. but what other tool do we have at our disposal? OR the saying goes Love can be bread.. but when the reality comes. we still need bread to keep the love going.
Well I am not saying that defamation /libel lawsuits are norm. but I do feel when some one make a accusation in public he / she must have proof. Yes Free speech! but with Free speech also come responsibility. What will happen I go ard smearing a person reputation? the distressed caused to the person? What happen to that person free speech too and rights?
I think thats what the paper asked for right? where people jump n jump when they sat 6.9M and stop reading. Paper ask for slower influx, moderate growth to 2-3%. and in the mean time ramp up the infra.
So I dont see why so many people jump to conclusion. I believe many in the 1st place never read. coz to me the 20yrs of infra building will also help keep the jobs going in the city state. For this ah kong are spending. instead of putting $ directly as one time money bonus . the $ goes to build something and the people get jobs. in the end its win win for both people , country and the next generation.
PH wasn't included. If so, it will be even more astounding. From speaking with a pinoy colleague, typically they would own upwards of 5 or more, coz each is so cheap.
Here he only earn enough to lease share a HDB. Back home he gets chaffeured around.
so I guess we should all venture out to look at outside property :)
but one thing though. interest rates are much higher in malaysia or other countries...
After three years of my first job (quite a number of years back, I must admit), with my salary of $1,800 (combined with my then grilfriend's $1,500) . . . we could quite easily afford our first home - a walk-up FH apartment in a prime district, for $300,000.
So is my generation worse off or better off than today's generation? We worked shorter hours. Education was less stressful. Our money could go a lot further.
How can property be deemed affordable today? I fear for my children. Wages may creep up . . . but property, cars, everything else will escalate, especially with all the foreigners in our midst. So what price economic growth if we have to slog and stress and strain?
The hard fact is that your children's finished. With 7 million people, you won't even be able to get an ICU if you get a heart attack by the time you're old.
The hard fact is that your children's finished. With 7 million people, you won't even be able to get an ICU if you get a heart attack by the time you're old.
Agree with that. You might not even get there. No ambulance available and/or the roads so jammed, it would take a long time to get to hosp by which time your heart muscle has become irreversibly damaged. Not enough specialist docs to attend to you immediately when you get to hosp. Or some foreign talent MO (junior doc) who works at the pace of his/her previous country.
It is quite scary.
:scared-1:
Foreigners are important, they serve healthcare, maids, construction, they work shift, weekends, holidays. Without foreign nurses we will be in trouble when we get old and sick. Whenever i go to garden by the bay i am proud of Singapore achievement and all of the new hdb, condo, roads, mrt tunnels, marina bay sands, rws are built by foreign workers without them things can't be done.
Which part of my sentence says that foreigners eg maid, construction workers etc are not important? Btw, will these people rent condo from us? Seriously, do u all care about this group of people? You guys just want more expat who are able to rent your condo! :rolleyes:
Agree with that. You might not even get there. No ambulance available and/or the roads so jammed, it would take a long time to get to hosp by which time your heart muscle has become irreversibly damaged. Not enough specialist docs to attend to you immediately when you get to hosp. Or some foreign talent MO (junior doc) who works at the pace of his/her previous country.
It is quite scary.
:scared-1:
Of course, unless you are important enough to have an SAF helicopter on standby, or better still a stay-in cardialogist and operating room at home funded by state money.
smellyfish
11-02-13, 08:46
i recently went to Changi hospital A&E. it's a zoo.
Everyone talk about children. I think singapore children are very lucky and over protected by parents. Malaysia chinese teenage already travel to singapore to work and stay, very independent. If children can't take stress or competiton here they can't survive anywhere. Philipines and indonesia very young age already work as maid, here sg children still relaxing at home and their only job is study.
Some Ang moh countries children even more stress, their countries already in trillions of debts awaiting for them to repay. I am grateful we r in sg.
Come on. Many Malaysian hate PAP. They are so happy when WP won. :rolleyes: Maybe more should convert to sc. And also... JB n Singapore is just a bus ride away. :rolleyes:
thomastansb
11-02-13, 08:57
So are houses in Zurich, New York, Hongkong. If you want cheap houses, maybe you can find in Vietnam. 10 years and the house is yours. But wait, their salary is like $500 a month with 15% unemployment?
And I don't understand why people always say private properties. You should go for BTO. Most of my colleagues can pay off their 200k BTO in 5-6 years and now, it can be sold for 500k. Of course, some daft people want to buy HDB at 50k and sell at 60k. What a joke.
agree with this. To say that today private residential prices are affordable merely because from a 30 year loan quantum perspective really begs the question and mentality of the government.
gone were the days that taking a 15 years loan to service mortgage is regarded as normal. Now 30 years loan is the norm - do we want to wait for another 10 years from now and say its normal for a mortgage loan to be serviced by TWO GENERATIONS like that of Japan?
This has to be moderated and it has to be done now, when our vote matters a difference.
We are not unreasonable pple. Far from it (at least for me) i do listen to good reason - but pls no "top down" approach dictating what needs to be done FOR US
thomastansb
11-02-13, 09:00
The problem with Singaporeans is they like to sprout rubbish. Why 7 million you can't get ICU? Is there any research that you have done or data to back you up?
The hard fact is that your children's finished. With 7 million people, you won't even be able to get an ICU if you get a heart attack by the time you're old.
thomastansb
11-02-13, 09:02
Of course they hate PAP. Who benefit the most if Singapore collapse? Malaysia and Indonesia and our surrounding countries right?
Come on. Many Malaysian hate PAP. They are so happy when WP won. :rolleyes: Maybe more should convert to sc. And also... JB n Singapore is just a bus ride away. :rolleyes:
Good info,
thank mcm
happy cny to all forumer
Singapore is built on the basis of a democratic system. The uniqueness of a democratic system is that the system 'will not fail' even if a 'weak government' is in power because democracry will ensure that the best political power to run the country.
Even if there is a feak result and the WP come into power; democracry would ensure that if the WP cannot deliver, it would be casted out through reelection or National Referendum.
A good democratic system will survive the time.
The white paper is just an ideology by one political party which advocates economic growth. A democratic system of government will ensure that the ruling party would have to balance the interests of the minority (or even the majority) and not to carry things to the extreme. In another word, a democratic system will always ensure the 'balance of power' and ensure the system will survive.
If imagine the WP is now in power, the PAP could well be the one to try to balance its 'Blue Paper' to ensure economic continuity.
We should be discussing what do the majority of Singaporeans want. If the majority of Singaporeas want better quality of life, than the democratic system will prevail and the government who 'refuses' to pursue the wants of the majority will be voted out some day.
If only the minority of the population want economic growth at the expense of quality of life, then the democratic system will ensure that it would not happen.
Since Singapore adopted the democratic system, we should allow the system to work. History has shown that a good democratic system would survive the most trying times.
Greed and more greed, eonomic growth at all cost, at any cost, especially with more foreigners than Singaporeans in our own country . . . will lead to more unhappiness. Don't we want our children and their children to be happy rather than to keep counting how much money we have and how much we are going to make whether from property or otherwise? At its core, happiness consists of being healthy, having good food to feed ourselves and our family and enough money to do what we want and buy what we need. For most people that entails a nice home, a job, decent clothes, cable TV and other forms of entertainment, good times with family and friends. Furthermore, happiness means being able to speak what's on our mind without fear, to worship the God of our choosing, and to feel safe and secure in our own home.
The World's Happiest Countries:
1. Norway
2. Denmark
3. Sweden
4. Australia
5. New Zealand
6. Canada
7. Finland
8. The Netherlands
9. Switzerland
10. Ireland
. . . . according to Legatum Institute, a nonpartisan think tank which set out to rank the happiest countries in the world.
Luxembourg is the healthiest nation on Earth. Iceland is the safest. Switzerland has the world’s best economy and governance, according to Legatum. Overall, Norway takes the prize.
Does Singapore rank so highly as some of us seem to think? Maybe we know something the rest of the world doesn't.
So are houses in Zurich, New York, Hongkong. If you want cheap houses, maybe you can find in Vietnam. 10 years and the house is yours. But wait, their salary is like $500 a month with 15% unemployment?
And I don't understand why people always say private properties. You should go for BTO. Most of my colleagues can pay off their 200k BTO in 5-6 years and now, it can be sold for 500k. Of course, some daft people want to buy HDB at 50k and sell at 60k. What a joke.
this thinking and extrapolation is flawed as there is no guarantee the kind of price appreciation witnessed in the past decade which was due to severe under building by the pap govt will continue into the future, and precisely why prices will not be sustainable.
Of course they hate PAP. Who benefit the most if Singapore collapse? Malaysia and Indonesia and our surrounding countries right?
this is baseless fear mongering again. While some may envy us, to use the word 'hate' is plain exaggeration and veers towards the irrational.
Singapore is built on the basis of a democratic system. The uniqueness of a democratic system is that the system 'will not fail' even if a 'weak government' is in power because democracry will ensure that the best political power to run the country.
Even if there is a feak result and the WP come into power; democracry would ensure that if the WP cannot deliver, it would be casted out through reelection or National Referendum.
A good democratic system will survive the time.
The white paper is just an ideology by one political party which advocates economic growth. A democratic system of government will ensure that the ruling party would have to balance the interests of the minority (or even the majority) and not to carry things to the extreme. In another word, a democratic system will always ensure the 'balance of power' and ensure the system will survive.
If imagine the WP is now in power, the PAP could well be the one to try to balance its 'Blue Paper' to ensure economic continuity.
We should be discussing what do the majority of Singaporeans want. If the majority of Singaporeas want better quality of life, than the democratic system will prevail and the government who 'refuses' to pursue the wants of the majority will be voted out some day.
If only the minority of the population want economic growth at the expense of quality of life, then the democratic system will ensure that it would not happen.
Since Singapore adopted the democratic system, we should allow the system to work. History has shown that a good democratic system would survive the most trying times.
Sg will fail under a weak gov, because we doesn't have a strong ideology. We. Don't have a common enemy to bond the whole nation (unlike let's say israel). Our pursuit of wealth is not helping to unite the people. Money is not a loyal servant. Strong gov is needed to plan for a long term to stay ahead of giants neighbouring countries.
Sg will fail under a weak gov, because we doesn't have a strong ideology. We. Don't have a common enemy to bond the whole nation (unlike let's say israel). Our pursuit of wealth is not helping to unite the people. Money is not a loyal servant. Strong gov is needed to plan for a long term to stay ahead of giants neighbouring countries.
That is what LKY has been saying for the last 60 years. I have been hearing it since my school days. Are we all being 'brain wash' over the years? LHL and GCT never said that now.
Aye to that! We should not be so suspicious about what others feel and think.
In fact, I am often a critic of our govt but does that mean I hate the govt. When we scold our children, reserving harsh words for them, does it mean we hate our children?
For love of country, our motherlanbd, the land of our birth, we want to see a difference, to make a difference, to experience better days.
George Bernard Shaw wrote: 'You see things, and ask: Why? But I dream things that never were, and ask: Why not?'
We must keep asking why not this, why not that. It's the only way for us to go forward.
this is baseless fear mongering again. While some may envy us, to use the word 'hate' is plain exaggeration and veers towards the irrational.
The hard fact is that your children's finished. With 7 million people, you won't even be able to get an ICU if you get a heart attack by the time you're old.
Sad truth man - and definitely not going to get any better with the implicit assumption in the white paper that the elderly is not regarded as an asset and hence part of the justification for bigger talent import instead
That is what LKY has been saying for the last 60 years. I have been hearing it since my school days. Are we all being 'brain wash' over the years? LHL and GCT never said that now.
What I mean is any opposition wanting to take office, must at least at par or even better qualified than the current gov. If u choose opposition simply because things are not going your way now, then its plain childish and dangerous.
What I mean is any opposition wanting to take office, must at least at par or even better qualified than the current gov. If u choose opposition simply because things are not going your way now, then its plain childish and dangerous.
We should trust the democratic system and the people who vote.
What I mean is any opposition wanting to take office, must at least at par or even better qualified than the current gov. If u choose opposition simply because things are not going your way now, then its plain childish and dangerous.
I actually think it is more dangerous to stick with a ruling party that has long lost its foresight and has to resort to undemocratic means to stay in power.
I actually think it is more dangerous to stick with a ruling party that has long lost its foresight and has to resort to undemocratic means to stay in power.
Actually its more constructive to improve the quality of opposition party than to blame the governing party. Show the people what u can do. People are not blind. If u say the governing party lost its foresight, then show me your foresight.
Actually its more constructive to improve the quality of opposition party than to blame the governing party. Show the people what u can do. People are not blind. If u say the governing party lost its foresight, then show me your foresight.
I attached my quote in another thread on the same subject. We need to give ourselves a chance for democracry to evolute.
I recall prior to the return of Hong Kong to China in 1997, many rich and middle class Hong Kongers sold their HK assets and set up homes in Canada, Australia and even Singapore. Many of these people who migrated had long returned to Hong Kong for the better.
Mr Lee Kuan Yew then in 1997 had advised the rich Hong Kongers to stay put to negotiate and work with the new legislatior for the greater good of Hong Kong. However, the rich and middle class chose to leave. The rest is history.
Here in Singapore, we are developing our own democracy. Given time, our very own democracy will evolute. We are in the process of transition. If things evolute as it should, we should be witnessing more capable people joining the opposition with the dilution of power of the ruling party. Whether a two-party system is good for Singapore or not is debatable.
The ruling party thinks that we are too small a country with limited talent for a two-party system to work well. The opposition party (parties) rightly think that given time and equal playing field, they are capable of attracting good and talent people to run the country. This is where we are now.
As a Singaporean, I would like to see progress in our journey towards greater democracy. It would be a sad day if one day our rich and middle class citizens choose to migrate (just like the rich Hong Kongers did in 1997) to other countries when face with adversity. For Capitalism system to work, the rich and the middle class must stay put to help whoever in power for the greater good of Singapore. This is the spirit of democracry and the spirit we look for in every Singaporeans.
so I guess we should all venture out to look at outside property :)
but one thing though. interest rates are much higher in malaysia or other countries...
From point of diversification, definitely.
If only have limited bullets, please don't be silly.
Actually its more constructive to improve the quality of opposition party than to blame the governing party. Show the people what u can do. People are not blind. If u say the governing party lost its foresight, then show me your foresight.
the Workers Party imo has performed commendably in parliament. On the other hand the members of the ruling party appears confrontational, ungainly, and at times plain idiotic and ungracious. Even some NMPs make more sense than the ruling party MPs.
The track record of the ruling party for the past 10 years is plain for us to see. Look no further than what the Managing Editor of the govt mouthpiece The Straits Times have to say about this in yesterday's Sunday Times. In an editorial he suggested that the ruling party has lost the trust of the people. And he provides a telling anecdote saying this,
"Someone put this question to me earlier in the week: The Govt says having one mio more people in spore in 10 years' time will be good for the country. But we had one mio more people in the last 10 years - how did that benefit us? I couldn't persuade him that it made the economy more vibrant and added to the buzz of the place."
indeed people are not blind. Even the editor of the govt-controlled media is sending a not so subtle message to the ruling party. So perhaps you will also ask him to show you his foresight?
Democracy is abig word lah, dont suka suka use democracy.
Usa democratic, got 3rd or 4th or more political party?
By virtue of the fact we got time to spar political debate online instead of working, shows we are blessed to be living in a good country, good government.
I attached my quote in another thread on the same subject. We need to give ourselves a chance for democracry to evolute.
No weak government can be allowed to govern sg. It has to be a strong rulling party or a strong opposition. There are many people out there itching to short singapore, installing a weak government will see this happen in a heart beat.
No weak government can be allowed to govern sg. It has to be a strong rulling party or a strong opposition. There are many people out there itching to short singapore, installing a weak government will see this happen in a heart beat.
I recall u are not even a sporean, right?
while that shouldnt stop u from commenting, why not u share some insight on democracy in the country of your birth, Indonesia? :)
Democracy is abig word lah, dont suka suka use democracy.
Usa democratic, got 3rd or 4th or more political party?
By virtue of the fact we got time to spar political debate online instead of working, shows we are blessed to be living in a good country, good government.
today is a holiday, why are you working? Oh my, are you being exploited?
They can go online and surf internet in Nigeria too, is Nigeria a good country with a good govt?
Democracy is abig word lah, dont suka suka use democracy.
Usa democratic, got 3rd or 4th or more political party?
By virtue of the fact we got time to spar political debate online instead of working, shows we are blessed to be living in a good country, good government.
High five.......
I recall u are not even a sporean, right?
while that shouldnt stop u from commenting, why not u share some insight on democracy in the country of your birth, Indonesia? :)
I am usually apolitical. But its the "allowing of weak gov to rule" that set me off.
Allthepies
11-02-13, 11:40
Democracy like communism will only work best in an ideal world.
However sad to say there no such thing as an ideal world. Ha ha.
Maybe before all of us keyboard warriors talk about overpopulation and all that, have a walk in Geylang now.
Yesterday I was there, perhaps it was partly due to the constant drizzle, Geylang main road was crammed full of our foreign worker friends. There was a definite buzz to the area given their culture of speaking in a very upfront manner. Overall it gave a very vibrant atmosphere to an otherwise drab and wet day. City Plaza also doesn't pale in comparison. Otherwise, when I was in town, I barely spot a foreign worker.
Foreign TALENTS, though, are out with full force. You can spot them everywhere almost, taking buses, going to the cinemas etc, which is a welcome change in sight. Cinemas from today onwards will see some good patronage from locals as well, as they slip in some entertainment in between house visits. The typical HDB carpark will be full of cars due to the visiting. And you barely see too many locals in public places and shopping centers. Most of which are closed anyways.
So back to the foreign workers crowds. They are in their 'sunday best', mostly just chatting and making (out with) new friends, confined to certain areas only, mostly areas which no local would frequent. Therefore, foreign workers are barely 'in our face', though I must admit the bus saw a higher than normal percentage of them. But in this case, there was an interesting juxtaposition of both OFW and FT in same buses. I was glad as a true blue local I got to see some of these dynamics in action, which basically, was inaction, as everyone left one another to mind their own business.
My point is, just time your commute accordingly, eg. everyone knows not to go certain areas on Sunday evenings if they do not want to be caught up in the big squeeze. Our OFW friends need to catch up and relax with their friends too. It is most silly to go in knowing there will be a crunch and then complain of overcrowding. It's the same concept of the morning jam into the city/CBD. If you can't live with it, you don't keep complaining - just take a detour or another route. Everyone has a reason to be at certain place at certain times. If given a choice I guess most would prefer to relax at home and not cluster-fxck unnecessarily seeking trouble.
So we can all make more space for one another, if without the luxury of space, then perhaps time-sharing.
Allthepies
11-02-13, 11:44
I am usually apolitical. But its the "allowing of weak gov to rule" that set me off.
Because this generation of Singaporeans have not gone through difficult times, tat is why they have this silly idea to try out a weak government.
Debts are used by all listed companies, so based on what you said, govt should ban all these companies from borrowing from banks, issuing bonds and other form of debt instruments? :scared-2:
The govt will never ban loan. The bankers will never allow this. The central bank will never allow it. The government always want to reduce debt and they are unable to do it why? Interest Rate. Anyway, this is the norm now and we cannot move out of this cycle anyway. All I want to say is that debt is never go for the economy. It is like a drug that let u feel happy for a short while and the future side effect is long term. Like at USA, happy for so many years and now it is time to pay back.
I am usually apolitical. But its the "allowing of weak gov to rule" that set me off.
If you are refering to the current govt led by the ruling party as weak, I agree with you. The track record is there to be seen.
But if u are suggesting an opposition led govt is a weak one, there is no basis to say so since they are not in power. so do think logically instead of letting ur emotion rule your thoughts.
thomastansb
11-02-13, 11:46
Just look at Greece or Spain. Weak government and flawed policies.
I don't favour pap or WP. As long as it is a solid party with good policies. But right now, pap is a solid party and WP can not even draft proper policies now... LTK also admitted to that.
this is baseless fear mongering again. While some may envy us, to use the word 'hate' is plain exaggeration and veers towards the irrational.
Just look at Greece or Spain. Weak government and flawed policies.
I don't favour pap or WP. As long as it is a solid party with good policies. But right now, pap is a solid party and WP can not even draft proper policies now... LTK also admitted to that.
The problem is how you know we have a solid party with good policy? If the government make a mistake and screwed up the policy who do we have or what are the means we have to stop the things from happening? And I feel what WP have raised a good point in this debate. Where will we go after 6.9 million? We have to change. We cannot no longer depend on cheap manpower to survive. You can never win China, Thailand, Malaysia when it comes to cheap labor and availability of manpower. Business that depend on cheap manpower will move out no matter what it will just be cheaper in Malaysia and China. It is like BMW want to fight with Toyota on prices. If they do that, BMW will die, as they cannot never fight with Toyota. We will need to increase our edge in term of creative and value-added service.
If you are refering to the current govt led by the ruling party as weak, I agree with you. The track record is there to be seen.
But if u are suggesting an opposition led govt is a weak one, there is no basis to say so since they are not in power. so do think logically instead of letting ur emotion rule your thoughts.
In the sea full of predators, u want the biggest baddest shark to be on your side, not the friendliest of dolphin.
Just look at Greece or Spain. Weak government and flawed policies.
I don't favour pap or WP. As long as it is a solid party with good policies. But right now, pap is a solid party and WP can not even draft proper policies now... LTK also admitted to that.
I too share your concerns about weak govt and flawed policies. Which is why I believe the ruling party needs a wake up call. It is for their own good and long overdue. The voters of Ponggol East has spoken and sent a clear message. But look how the ruling party responded? It decided to go back on its electoral promises to provide much needed childcare facilities. Such childish and punitive actions smack of vindictive pettiness. It destroys one's own political credibility and will surely incur a bigger backlash later on, if not already.
I recall u are not even a sporean, right?
while that shouldnt stop u from commenting, why not u share some insight on democracy in the country of your birth, Indonesia? :)
During Suharto last few days, massive protest on the street by university students. One student was interviewed by the reporter:
Reporter: why are you protesting?
Student: suharto and the cronies are corrupted. We want alternative government.
Reporter: what will you do if you are part of the new alternative government?
Student: Oh, I will make my friends and myself very rich!
In the sea full of predators, u want the biggest baddest shark to be on your side, not the friendliest of dolphin.
in the natural order of things, alliances with dolphins who thrive through sustainable mutual cooperation will always prevail over being a lackey of the lone big bully.
During Suharto last few days, massive protest on the street by university students. One student was interviewed by the reporter:
Reporter: why are you protesting?
Student: suharto and the cronies are corrupted. We want alternative government.
Reporter: what will you do if you are part of the new alternative government?
Student: Oh, I will make my friends and myself very rich!
This is why any ruling party must take heed from well meaning critics not to descend to such a late stage in their political illegitimacy. By then the vengeful nature of the masses will know no bound.
thomastansb
11-02-13, 14:06
But WP's proposal is suicidal. I rather have 6.9M people than to have high unemployment, high inflation. We only have 1 chance. There is no way back if things screw up. Greece has EU backing. Singapore has no one to turn to, no natural resources. So if we go down, our neighbours will be the happiest and no one will bother about you. By that time, there will be no foreigners, housing will be cheap, MRT will be empty. We have work life balance also. 7 days at home because unemployed.
This is why any ruling party must take heed from well meaning critics not to descend to such a late stage in their political illegitimacy. By then the vengeful nature of the masses will know no bound.
But WP's proposal is suicidal. I rather have 6.9M people than to have high unemployment, high inflation. We only have 1 chance. There is no way back if things screw up. Greece has EU backing. Singapore has no one to turn to, no natural resources. So if we go down, our neighbours will be the happiest and no one will bother about you. By that time, there will be no foreigners, housing will be cheap, MRT will be empty. We have work life balance also. 7 days at home because unemployed.
When we are at 3 million did we have high unemployment rate? :beats-me-man:
When we are at 4 million did we have high unemployment rate? :beats-me-man:
When we are at 5 million did we have high unemployment rate? :beats-me-man:
I really don't understand what you are talking about and unless you have real figure that support the theory that 5.9 million proposal will have a serious impact on the economic, I really cannot agree with you. :doh:
I agree with government say we should prepared for the worst with proper planning to hold 6.9 million population. But we should not open the flood gate to all foreigners but rather foreigners that can contribute to the nation. What we need is talent and workers that contributes in our nation building. Singaporean are generally worried due to what happen since 2004. Population boom, insufficient housing and transportation, etc..
I don't believe 3 cobblers can beat 1 Zhuge Liang. I believe in a thousand army is easy to gather but a good general is difficult to find. What we want is that a good general and not a thousand army.
Regulators
11-02-13, 15:46
minority's aim is to have singapore becoming a communist country coz his motto is "Capitalism will eventually lead to Socialism" :D
Your being full support of the white paper is of course one view. Mine is just another. No right and wrong here. The hard approach as posted by the white paper indeed should be tweaked and further consultation should be done.
No one is asking for FULL consultation - pls do not twist my words. I am saying there should be more discussion and of course this does not mean full consensus before releasing the white paper - this is not attainable.
You are in tandem with the government's doomsday theory and hand me down approach to citizens. This may well sit with certain segments of the singapore populace here - but surely not with some other segments whom think that more discussion does not mean more disagreement.
Worker's party proposal is not perfect and I do not profess to enlist full support for it. Neither is the incumbent government's proposal - surely we can have agreement on this point? :beats-me-man:
minority's aim is to have singapore becoming a communist country coz his motto is "Capitalism will eventually lead to Socialism" :D
i tink this is approaching extremist views. Not that sure whether that is a collective perspective and certaintly not one that I subscribe to. :scared-3:
Maybe before all of us keyboard warriors talk about overpopulation and all that, have a walk in Geylang now.
Yesterday I was there, perhaps it was partly due to the constant drizzle, Geylang main road was crammed full of our foreign worker friends. There was a definite buzz to the area given their culture of speaking in a very upfront manner. Overall it gave a very vibrant atmosphere to an otherwise drab and wet day. City Plaza also doesn't pale in comparison. Otherwise, when I was in town, I barely spot a foreign worker.
Foreign TALENTS, though, are out with full force. You can spot them everywhere almost, taking buses, going to the cinemas etc, which is a welcome change in sight. Cinemas from today onwards will see some good patronage from locals as well, as they slip in some entertainment in between house visits. The typical HDB carpark will be full of cars due to the visiting. And you barely see too many locals in public places and shopping centers. Most of which are closed anyways.
So back to the foreign workers crowds. They are in their 'sunday best', mostly just chatting and making (out with) new friends, confined to certain areas only, mostly areas which no local would frequent. Therefore, foreign workers are barely 'in our face', though I must admit the bus saw a higher than normal percentage of them. But in this case, there was an interesting juxtaposition of both OFW and FT in same buses. I was glad as a true blue local I got to see some of these dynamics in action, which basically, was inaction, as everyone left one another to mind their own business.
My point is, just time your commute accordingly, eg. everyone knows not to go certain areas on Sunday evenings if they do not want to be caught up in the big squeeze. Our OFW friends need to catch up and relax with their friends too. It is most silly to go in knowing there will be a crunch and then complain of overcrowding. It's the same concept of the morning jam into the city/CBD. If you can't live with it, you don't keep complaining - just take a detour or another route. Everyone has a reason to be at certain place at certain times. If given a choice I guess most would prefer to relax at home and not cluster-fxck unnecessarily seeking trouble.
So we can all make more space for one another, if without the luxury of space, then perhaps time-sharing.
I think there is a big difference here between accomodating for pple and there be an over-crowding situation here. Sure we are already doing that in terms of making sure we reach office in time in the morning by travelling earlier than expected.
"force majeure" like situations like train breakdowns due to over-straining and overcrowding of the trains on the prolonged basis is something that we cannot plan around. Its becoming more of a norm now and in part this has to be attributed somewhat to the increased population and commuting stress being placed on existing infrastructure not being ready enough to accomodate the massive exponential population expansion
So are houses in Zurich, New York, Hongkong. If you want cheap houses, maybe you can find in Vietnam. 10 years and the house is yours. But wait, their salary is like $500 a month with 15% unemployment?
And I don't understand why people always say private properties. You should go for BTO. Most of my colleagues can pay off their 200k BTO in 5-6 years and now, it can be sold for 500k. Of course, some daft people want to buy HDB at 50k and sell at 60k. What a joke.
I have no problems agreeing with you as indicated in my earlier post if this is where government makes NO linkage between public housing and private housing places. This is apparently not the case and disproportional increase in private housing has a very detrimental impact on public housing.
That is the main reason why the collective concern on private housing prices. And I am not so sure why there is a comparision with other countries - my posts are not using these comparisions as its not an apple to apple comparision in my opinion though :beats-me-man:
Of course they hate PAP. Who benefit the most if Singapore collapse? Malaysia and Indonesia and our surrounding countries right?
there is a difference. They may not like country as a whole and this is only said for purposes of argument. Not saying whether i agree or disagree with this.
But we in Singapore are genuinely concerned about OUR Country. We just do not like how we are being GOVERNED by the incumbent government. My roots are here and I will stay here for long ... so i wish to see some changes in the way incumbent government is dishing out policies in the name of "economic growth" or "worst case scenarios" targets when they are just not so just target at this juncture basis past track records.
The problem with Singaporeans is they like to sprout rubbish. Why 7 million you can't get ICU? Is there any research that you have done or data to back you up?
I think he is just saying this as a means of illustrating the inadequacy of current infrastructure supporting the pending massive immigration influx - a point that I think the PM admitted in his candid dialogue sometime ago.
This he has given personal committment to push through to ensure that infrastruture development will be boasted to cater for such eventuality - this is pending concrete results which I am sure all voters are looking with very keen eyes
We should trust the democratic system and the people who vote.
we do basis the votes provided in the last GE. Not so sure whether the belief holds true for the upcoming 2016 GE. I will await the results and efforts of the incumbent government before deciding though
Because this generation of Singaporeans have not gone through difficult times, tat is why they have this silly idea to try out a weak government.
this assumes that the incumbent is strong. May be a right or wrong assumption. Just saying. :beats-me-man:
But WP's proposal is suicidal. I rather have 6.9M people than to have high unemployment, high inflation. We only have 1 chance. There is no way back if things screw up. Greece has EU backing. Singapore has no one to turn to, no natural resources. So if we go down, our neighbours will be the happiest and no one will bother about you. By that time, there will be no foreigners, housing will be cheap, MRT will be empty. We have work life balance also. 7 days at home because unemployed.
I disagree with you. And i think the scenario you painted is extreme. Anyway such differences will be sorted out at the ballot box in 2016.
I disagree with you. And i think the scenario you painted is extreme. Anyway such differences will be sorted out at the ballot box in 2016.
high five my good friend. Agree with you fully. I can only implore that all eligible voters cast their vote wisely. Whether at the end of the day its the incumbent or some other party its totally your call, but pls make sure your call is a carefully considered and informed one :spliff:
felicia_sg
11-02-13, 16:52
What you said I am confused. Why concern about private when what the 80% can afford is just a HDB flat & they just need cheap HDB flats?
I have no problems agreeing with you as indicated in my earlier post if this is where government makes NO linkage between public housing and private housing places. This is apparently not the case and disproportional increase in private housing has a very detrimental impact on public housing.
That is the main reason why the collective concern on private housing prices. And I am not so sure why there is a comparision with other countries - my posts are not using these comparisions as its not an apple to apple comparision in my opinion though :beats-me-man:
From point of diversification, definitely.
If only have limited bullets, please don't be silly.
i like this - short, clear and sharp. No disagreement here for purposes of property investments.
Just look at Greece or Spain. Weak government and flawed policies.
I don't favour pap or WP. As long as it is a solid party with good policies. But right now, pap is a solid party and WP can not even draft proper policies now... LTK also admitted to that.
The new PAP can't even give an answer to the AIM case.
Just from one case you know how weak the leadership is, they can't even control their own people.
To think that last time old man do things so garang, no dilly dally, no nonsense!
:D
No weak government can be allowed to govern sg. It has to be a strong rulling party or a strong opposition. There are many people out there itching to short singapore, installing a weak government will see this happen in a heart beat.
I have never suggested that a weak government be allowed to govern. I merely said that we (Singaporeans) should allow our very own democracy to evolute. We should trust the system the PAP government instills which is a democratic system, a system that will survive the test of time.
Do we not want a democratic system whereby our country still function normally regardless of which party is in power just like the British, Japanese or the Americians? Or do we want to continue to reply on one single party which is not what our democratic system suppose to be in the first place.
We should allow the growth of our democratic system and strengthen our institutions with the balance of power.
But WP's proposal is suicidal. I rather have 6.9M people than to have high unemployment, high inflation. We only have 1 chance. There is no way back if things screw up. Greece has EU backing. Singapore has no one to turn to, no natural resources. So if we go down, our neighbours will be the happiest and no one will bother about you. By that time, there will be no foreigners, housing will be cheap, MRT will be empty. We have work life balance also. 7 days at home because unemployed.
This post must comment. My friend, 6.9 mil doesn't mean locals get unemployed, it means in hard times, we revoke some of the PRs to allow the core to survive better. Gahmen cannot say that publicly right?
But the other concerns abt infrastructure is correct. We have to ask if this country wants to continue getting economic grow thru adding ppl.
The BIG question is .. If not then how??? Gahman knows not many ppl know the solution, so they take this route and asks its ppl, if they smart enough to come up with other plans?!
Anyway, the result of all these will continue to provide more support for ppty prices to go up.
Like I posted earlier, u r unhappy because from a social perspective, u hv been downgraded from (say) 20% to 30th percent coz the ppl they bring in are mostly top 10%. Which make sense to the country, but awkward to its ppl.
Can understand ? Office Boy England no so power, hope I got my pt a across.
GXFC! Huat Ah!!
DKSG
This post must comment. My friend, 6.9 mil doesn't mean locals get unemployed, it means in hard times, we revoke some of the PRs to allow the core to survive better. Gahmen cannot say that publicly right?
But the other concerns abt infrastructure is correct. We have to ask if this country wants to continue getting economic grow thru adding ppl.
The BIG question is .. If not then how??? Gahman knows not many ppl know the solution, so they take this route and asks its ppl, if they smart enough to come up with other plans?!
Anyway, the result of all these will continue to provide more support for ppty prices to go up.
Like I posted earlier, u r unhappy because from a social perspective, u hv been downgraded from (say) 20% to 30th percent coz the ppl they bring in are mostly top 10%. Which make sense to the country, but awkward to its ppl.
Can understand ? Office Boy England no so power, hope I got my pt a across.
GXFC! Huat Ah!!
DKSG
No disagreement here that if things remain status quo then no choice property prices will confirm chiong. But can the government pls la ramp up infrastructure and transport faster? And the public and private housing should remain as it is a clear divide and not a conflate of prices with public pricing being pulled up by private and then a vicious escalating property prices are being set forth
No disagreement here that if things remain status quo then no choice property prices will confirm chiong. But can the government pls la ramp up infrastructure and transport faster? And the public and private housing should remain as it is a clear divide and not a conflate of prices with public pricing being pulled up by private and then a vicious escalating property prices are being set forth
Singapore Style - ppl come first then build. Last time ppl come in, 5 years later than build, now maybe 1-2 years.
They must maintain the value of our precious land. Other countries just cut trees can get land, we must buy thousands of metric tons of sand before land appear. So certainly prices must go up, the only question is the speed.
DKSG
Back to the point on sentiments on the ground.
Office Boy visited (or drive pass) some showflats during CNY and noted that even places like Gambir Ridge (???) is 100% SOLD OUT!
Just back from Interlace n they are left with 200 + units! All big units...
On the way out, overheard some PRCs complaining abt the new CM but conclude that they LL will still buy, better than dont know what thing in China...
DKSG
Reporting "live" from showflats.
Back to the point on sentiments on the ground.
Office Boy visited (or drive pass) some showflats during CNY and noted that even places like Gambir Ridge (???) is 100% SOLD OUT!
Just back from Interlace n they are left with 200 + units! All big units...
On the way out, overheard some PRCs complaining abt the new CM but conclude that they LL will still buy, better than dont know what thing in China...
DKSG
Reporting "live" from showflats.
wow - so what developments are "hot" now and we should keep a lookout then :beats-me-man:
I was at the show flat last month and the in charge told me that there's one PRC bought 2 units. :sleep:
Better buy now during the lull. It may last only a few more weeks. Prices are crazy but I think there will be more cooling measures ahead to keep out investors...
More checks to go with private home loans
30% mortgage servicing ratio for private homes likely; FIs to look at broader debt too
By Kalpana Rashiwala (http://www.businesstimes.com.sg/reporter/kalpana-rashiwala)
Published February 09, 2013
BANKS may have to adopt tougher rules before granting loans for private home purchases. This is to ensure more financial prudence.
Questions may have to be asked, like what proportion of a person's monthly gross income is being used to service the home loan. The Monetary Authority (MAS) of Singapore has asked for this mortgage servicing ratio (MSR) to be capped at 30 per cent for private homes, as was done in the case of HDB flats last month.
MAS will also introduce broader rules in which the lender looks at total monthly debt payments of the borrower before granting property loans - to further strengthen the credit evaluation process.
The moves will foster greater financial prudence but further tighten credit for private home buyers, and impact the volume of property transactions, analysts say.
When contacted, MAS would not comment on whether it has any impending plan to extend a prescriptive MSR cap to private home mortgages (like the one it imposed on HDB flats as part of last month's property cooling measures). However, it confirmed advising financial institutions (FIs) that they should also consider applying the MSR to loans and refinancing facilities for private residential properties. "In addition to applying a MSR for HDB flats, MAS expects FIs to continue to be prudent in assessing the repayment ability of borrowers for all residential property loans," it added.
Talk in some circles is that MAS could roll out a more prescriptive cap on MSR for private home loans after it reviews an audit of banks' home mortgages portfolio conducted late last year.
Under the latest property cooling measures effective Jan 12, MAS has capped the MSR for home loans granted by FIs for the purchase and refinancing of HDB flats at 30 per cent of a borrower's gross monthly income. "This helps ensure more prudent lending by banks and reduce overleveraging by borrowers," MAS said yesterday in its response to BT's questions.
(For mortgages granted by HDB, the cap on the MSR has been lowered from 40 per cent to 35 per cent.)
MAS also said it will introduce broader rules on the debt servicing ratio (DSR) for property loans granted by FIs, to "further strengthen their credit evaluation process".
The DSR refers to total monthly debt repayments - including property loans, car loans, payment of credit card bills and repayment for any personal credit lines - as a percentage of a borrower's gross monthly income.
"The DSR takes on a more holistic approach than the MSR, taking into account other forms of debt repayment obligations in credit assessment. MAS is conducting a comprehensive review as FIs currently adopt varying approaches for the computation of DSR," said MAS.
Knight Frank chairman Tan Tiong Cheng said that the DSR would serve as a further check to ensure prudence on the part of banks as well as borrowers. "If this is the intention, it would be logical that banks be required to review a borrower's total outstanding debt not only when granting home mortgages but also when evaluating non-residential property loans to individuals. Otherwise, it could unintentionally cause demand for property, currently being fuelled by the low interest rate environment, to be transferred to the non-residential property sectors such as shop units, offices and industrial."
DTZ Southeast Asia chief operating officer Ong Choon Fah said that the MSR and DSR caps would affect borrowers who depend on their parents to chip in for monthly mortgage instalments, since these caps will be based on their monthly incomes.
However, this still leaves the door open for parents to help with an upfront cash payment when their children buy private residential properties, to make up for a smaller loan resulting from the MSR and DSR caps.
"The idea is to instil greater financial discipline. We cannot believe interest rates will stay low forever. If major economies such as United States and China improve, that could lead to higher interest rates. When you buy property, it is a long-term commitment; you cannot think just based on today's scenario."
Giving his take, Knight Frank's Mr Tan said the implication of the two caps is that private-home buyers will have to come up with a bigger cash down payment. "The advice from government is that when buying a property, you should buy something which, by their definition, is affordable to you, something that you can follow through in the longer term.
"If you take maximum gearing and if something untoward happens, you may not be able to service your loan. So the advice is: "Buy what you have the capacity for."
While that's good for financial prudence, "it could put a spanner in the works for someone who believes in the potential of a particular property for instance, or wants to buy it to fulfil their dream or aspirations", says Mr Tan.
http://www.businesstimes.com.sg/premium/top-stories/more-checks-go-private-home-loans-20130209
Back to the point on sentiments on the ground.
Office Boy visited (or drive pass) some showflats during CNY and noted that even places like Gambir Ridge (???) is 100% SOLD OUT!
Just back from Interlace n they are left with 200 + units! All big units...
On the way out, overheard some PRCs complaining abt the new CM but conclude that they LL will still buy, better than dont know what thing in China...
DKSG
Reporting "live" from showflats.
Your recce info is out-dated by months...
Global economy is improving, including Germany's. With more stable and growing economy, where will the $ go into? My take is SG and JB properties.
First to rise (at least 10%) will be JB properties since there are too many cooling measures and overcrowding in SG. Second to rise (about 5-10%) will be new launch SG properties near MRT. Third to rise (about 5%) will be SG property rental*. This is my projection for 2013.
German economy 'will gradually improve this year'
Published February 11, 2013
BERLIN - The German economy will gradually regain momentum over the course of this year as the global economic environment improves, the economy ministry said on Monday.
"The prospects for Germany's economy are gradually brightening. Early indicators point to a foreseeable end of the current weak patch," the ministry said in its monthly report.
Germany's economy contracted by 0.5 per cent in the fourth quarter but economists generally see it avoiding a technical recession, defined as two consecutive quarters of contraction, by growing moderately in the first quarter. -- REUTERS
http://www.businesstimes.com.sg/breaking-news/world/german-economy-will-gradually-improve-year-20130211
*Probably SG government might be caught off guard with higher demand for foreign workers. It will be quite interesting to see how the government reacts - chances are government will allow more workers to come in to stem the outflow of companies shifting out of SG, which would create serious issues later.
Global economy is improving, including Germany's. With more stable and growing economy, where will the $ go into? My take is SG and JB properties.
First to rise (at least 10%) will be JB properties since there are too many cooling measures and overcrowding in SG. Second to rise (about 5-10%) will be new launch SG properties near MRT. Third to rise (about 5%) will be SG property rental*. This is my projection for 2013.
German economy 'will gradually improve this year'
Published February 11, 2013
BERLIN - The German economy will gradually regain momentum over the course of this year as the global economic environment improves, the economy ministry said on Monday.
"The prospects for Germany's economy are gradually brightening. Early indicators point to a foreseeable end of the current weak patch," the ministry said in its monthly report.
Germany's economy contracted by 0.5 per cent in the fourth quarter but economists generally see it avoiding a technical recession, defined as two consecutive quarters of contraction, by growing moderately in the first quarter. -- REUTERS
http://www.businesstimes.com.sg/breaking-news/world/german-economy-will-gradually-improve-year-20130211
*Probably SG government might be caught off guard with higher demand for foreign workers. It will be quite interesting to see how the government reacts - chances are government will allow more workers to come in to stem the outflow of companies shifting out of SG, which would create serious issues later.
SMEs might find it invariable cheaper in the short term to hire talents from abroad and the guys have no additional reservice and/or RT obligations on their hands .... this thus brings the question of what additional perks does one have in serving the nation other than potentially create more issues when the SAF 100 comes and leave needs to be applied for reservice ....
Would implore that talents will be those of a higher calibre at least they would boast up the rental market for pplle here who are able to rent out properties ....
Your recce info is out-dated by months...
u mean this purchase frenzy has been on going for months in singapore prior ? :scared-4: But i went to the cityscape showflat and also serenity breeze showflat like no one in sight where I am - weekdays evening time ... other than QBay and D'Leedon post discounts and also Le Fiesta just prior to CM implementation do I see the mega crowds of yesteryears :beats-me-man:
Germany is an exporting country.. Their economy greatly depend on the Western European countries.. As Germany produce and Western Europe consumed. Just like USA consume and China produced.
Also a recovering global recovery will signal an end to the low interest rate environment and rapid increase of interest rate due to the previous QE. Also more money will be going back in equity due to global recovery.
For my view, a weak and uncertain global economy is the best for Singapore property which proof to be a safe haven...
u mean this purchase frenzy has been on going for months in singapore prior ? :scared-4: But i went to the cityscape showflat and also serenity breeze showflat like no one in sight where I am - weekdays evening time ... other than QBay and D'Leedon post discounts and also Le Fiesta just prior to CM implementation do I see the mega crowds of yesteryears :beats-me-man:
The Gambir Ridge was sold out in matter of days if I recall correctly when it was launched around end of last year. I was at the showflat and it was crowded even during cheque submission. Q-bay and Bartley Residence sales were some of my markers for more recent indication of market sentiment :p
SMEs might find it invariable cheaper in the short term to hire talents from abroad and the guys have no additional reservice and/or RT obligations on their hands .... this thus brings the question of what additional perks does one have in serving the nation other than potentially create more issues when the SAF 100 comes and leave needs to be applied for reservice ....
Would implore that talents will be those of a higher calibre at least they would boast up the rental market for pplle here who are able to rent out properties ....
There will be a greater society divide - the rich and ruling class will want more foreigner workers as they are producing goods and services for export, the middle will be increasing squeezed unless they take immediate action to grab hold of properties or upgrade themselves (increasing difficult), and the lower class that will find themselves getting trapped (note the CMs indirectly deter HDB upgraders). In another words, Singapore will be a country for the rich to enjoy, not necessary citizens.
Germany is an exporting country.. Their economy greatly depend on the Western European countries.. As Germany produce and Western Europe consumed. Just like USA consume and China produced.
Also a recovering global recovery will signal an end to the low interest rate environment and rapid increase of interest rate due to the previous QE. Also more money will be going back in equity due to global recovery.
For my view, a weak and uncertain global economy is the best for Singapore property which proof to be a safe haven...
The interest rate part is worrying, but I think it should be low in the next 2 years.
There will be a greater society divide - the rich and ruling class will want more foreigner workers as they are producing goods and services for export, the middle will be increasing squeezed unless they take immediate action to grab hold of properties or upgrade themselves (increasing difficult), and the lower class that will find themselves getting trapped (note the CMs indirectly deter HDB upgraders). In another words, Singapore will be a country for the rich to enjoy, not necessary citizens.
name me a country not like the above? look at Malaysia with their mm2h
http://www.mm2h.gov.my/conditions.php
sad but true - money makes the world go round
either accept or don't.
name me a country not like the above? look at Malaysia with their mm2h
http://www.mm2h.gov.my/conditions.php
sad but true - money makes the world go round
either accept or don't.
But their affordable housing for 1st time buyer for lower income group is a freehold landed house less than $200k RM :eek:
But their affordable housing for 1st time buyer for lower income group is a freehold landed house less than $200k RM :eek:
this blows a lot ... :(
But their affordable housing for 1st time buyer for lower income group is a freehold landed house less than $200k RM :eek:
if we have land like Malaysia, the land price will definitely be below 200k. but look at the mm2h, minimum requirement for foreigners to stay. they also want 10k income per month.
go kl, and price range differs.
Allthepies
11-02-13, 20:25
But their affordable housing for 1st time buyer for lower income group is a freehold landed house less than $200k RM :eek:
You cannot compare village with city. If the 200k is for kl city, then I say kudos. A house in Rwanda can cost less than $100(any how say a price). U want?
You cannot compare village with city. If the 200k is for kl city, then I say kudos. A house in Rwanda can cost less than $100(any how say a price). U want?
I disagree with you. Where did the money/profit go into? The less fortunate are not very well taken care of despite Singapore being one of the richest country in the world in terms of GDP per capita. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita
if we have land like Malaysia, the land price will definitely be below 200k. but look at the mm2h, minimum requirement for foreigners to stay. they also want 10k income per month.
go kl, and price range differs.
As per my reply above.
You cannot compare village with city. If the 200k is for kl city, then I say kudos. A house in Rwanda can cost less than $100(any how say a price). U want?
yes if in the capital, FH. africa is the next growth story. A lot of countries there have TFR greater than 2.
Allthepies
11-02-13, 21:22
I disagree with you. Where did the money/profit go into? The less fortunate are not very well taken care of despite Singapore being one of the richest country in the world in terms of GDP per capita. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita
I do agree that more need to be done to help the poor. However if you realise stopping growth and helping our needy are 2 separate issues.
I do agree that more need to be done to help the poor. However if you realise stopping growth and helping our needy are 2 separate issues.
Somehow the discussion got drifted there. Just to summarise, we definitely need to grow, but the current system ensures that the rich and ruling class cream off most of the benefits. The lower income group will be worse off. The middle class can take care of itself, but need to take action fast - one of the ways is to acquire assets that can appreciate along with the inflation or economy.
I have never suggested that a weak government be allowed to govern. I merely said that we (Singaporeans) should allow our very own democracy to evolute. We should trust the system the PAP government instills which is a democratic system, a system that will survive the test of time.
Do we not want a democratic system whereby our country still function normally regardless of which party is in power just like the British, Japanese or the Americians? Or do we want to continue to reply on one single party which is not what our democratic system suppose to be in the first place.
We should allow the growth of our democratic system and strengthen our institutions with the balance of power.
If sg adopt a pure democracy tomorrow, life as u know it today will ceased to exist. Sg will be similar to penang, an island in malaysia where mostly chinese inhabitants. Each time u want to built innovative infrastructure, people will vote to use the money for welfare instead. Forget about the long term planning, no leader will stay long enough in the office anyway. U want to stay in power, just give what everybody want..... Welfare and more welfare.
Allthepies
11-02-13, 21:37
Somehow the discussion got drifted there. Just to summarise, we definitely need to grow, but the current system ensures that the rich and ruling class cream off most of the benefits. The lower income group will be worse off. The middle class can take care of itself, but need to take action fast - one of the ways is to acquire assets that can appreciate along with the inflation or economy.
Yup we really need to help the lower income group more using money generated from our economy growth.
What I feel and see now, which may not be correct, is that most of the complaints, anger and dissatisfaction comes from the middle class. They are pushing for more benefits for themselves.
Yup we really need to help the lower income group more using money generated from our economy growth.
What I feel and see now, which may not be correct, is that most of the complaints, anger and dissatisfaction comes from the middle class. They are pushing for more benefits for themselves.
Yes, they know what strings to pull. The most ridiculous was e $12k income ceiling for EC, tt indirectly led to e ridiculous current situation of strong demand of >$ 1 mil large ECs tt r suppose to b subsidised housing.
If sg adopt a pure democracy tomorrow, life as u know it today will ceased to exist. Sg will be similar to penang, an island in malaysia where mostly chinese inhabitants. Each time u want to built innovative infrastructure, people will vote to use the money for welfare instead. Forget about the long term planning, no leader will stay long enough in the office anyway. U want to stay in power, just give what everybody want..... Welfare and more welfare.
Still better than KKN?
If sg adopt a pure democracy tomorrow, life as u know it today will ceased to exist. Sg will be similar to penang, an island in malaysia where mostly chinese inhabitants. Each time u want to built innovative infrastructure, people will vote to use the money for welfare instead. Forget about the long term planning, no leader will stay long enough in the office anyway. U want to stay in power, just give what everybody want..... Welfare and more welfare.
Democracy has to evolute over time as stated in my writing. Democracy does not means welfare. Democracy is about the balance of power for the democratic system to survive the passage of time.
Still better than KKN?
U must be indonesian
Democracy has to evolute over time as stated in my writing. Democracy does not means welfare. Democracy is about the balance of power for the democratic system to survive the passage of time.
Idealistic doesn't usually work out in the real world.
Idealistic doesn't usually work out in the real world.
It is happening now but Asia is lacking.
Wah lau....
Politics again...
This forum is becoming a political forum.
Every thread eventually degenerates into some government bashing session.
Bye bye guys..... enjoy
thomastansb
11-02-13, 22:29
I think you are just plain stupid. Never mind.
This post must comment. My friend, 6.9 mil doesn't mean locals get unemployed, it means in hard times, we revoke some of the PRs to allow the core to survive better. Gahmen cannot say that publicly right?
But the other concerns abt infrastructure is correct. We have to ask if this country wants to continue getting economic grow thru adding ppl.
The BIG question is .. If not then how??? Gahman knows not many ppl know the solution, so they take this route and asks its ppl, if they smart enough to come up with other plans?!
Anyway, the result of all these will continue to provide more support for ppty prices to go up.
Like I posted earlier, u r unhappy because from a social perspective, u hv been downgraded from (say) 20% to 30th percent coz the ppl they bring in are mostly top 10%. Which make sense to the country, but awkward to its ppl.
Can understand ? Office Boy England no so power, hope I got my pt a across.
GXFC! Huat Ah!!
DKSG
Can name a city that has singapore equivalent of peace, low crime, good infrastructure, cleanliness, low coruption, yet the housing take less than 10yrs to repay? Pls dont quote me rural housing. Need to compare apple to apple. City to city.
First come to my mind is Switzerland..it may do even better than Singapore
their housing might be cheap because they have plenty of land...cannot compare with ours, not apple to apple comparison.
Look at their food, wantan mee, RM5. they earn RM3k, we earn S$3K, but our wantan mee still S$2.5, and our money more than double their value....look at that, if you are malaysian, you should know what Im taking about. So what if the housing is cheap, there is a reason why. but why the food is so expensive??
and ppl here are still complain about inflation, it is happening everywhere, not only here!
:2cents:
But their affordable housing for 1st time buyer for lower income group is a freehold landed house less than $200k RM :eek:
pardon me but i think your words are too strong.
we are what we are today because of HUMAN. that is our only resources. But, it will also be our failure in future if we do not have enough. I dont understand why ppl dont see it.
i am also frustrated but not because of the magic number 6.9mil, rather because of the infrastructure not coping well with the increasing numbers...
ppl has already taken for granted what we have today. MNCs, they are here because we have good ppl here. Low unemployment rate, because we have a stable govt, predictable system and also vibrant economy here.
imagine MNCs are not able to get enough human resources readily, SMEs not able to get foreign workers for those jobs that SG shunt away, things will start to fall and the next thing is, ppl will start to complain about incapable govt and why are they not using their brains to attract more MNCs and companies to setup here and so on.
ppl is what we need. If today the white paper is titled How we want to keep unemployment rate below 1% and to provide quality life and jobs for our next generation for the next 20 years, things might be different. :o
:2cents: just my opinion.
I think you are just plain stupid. Never mind.
Yes, they know what strings to pull. The most ridiculous was e $12k income ceiling for EC, tt indirectly led to e ridiculous current situation of strong demand of >$ 1 mil large ECs tt r suppose to b subsidised housing.
u forgot to also blame the US government, EU and Japan Government. They are the reason interest rate is so darn low. If not for low interest rate. the 12K would be not sufficient to pay for a 1M EC condo loan.
Dont we all yearn for the good old days when interest rates was at least 4% to 6% for home loan.?
Democracy has to evolute over time as stated in my writing. Democracy does not means welfare. Democracy is about the balance of power for the democratic system to survive the passage of time.
Well did this version democratic system serve India and Taiwan well too? They sure stood the test of time.. just not getting anywhere much though.
Anyway on a full stomach got many things can say. GOD lah, freedom lah, freespeech lah, rights to hold arms lah even the freedom of my dog can talk abt it.
But when hungry no bread on table. Talk is plain cheap. Bread come 1st.
Idealistic doesn't usually work out in the real world.
when ur stomach is full , have job and a roof. you can be idealistic. when u dont have them. suddenly all become realistic.
First come to my mind is Switzerland..it may do even better than Singapore
They are also aging. they are also depending on immigrants to top up. current population is 7.7M . They also plan to top up by 2030 to 8.35M.
their TFR is 1.4 quite close to urs.
so i guess they have similar problems as Singapore and are too using immigrants to solve their aging population replacement rate issues.
http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/archive/Migration_drives_population_increase.html?cid=7363400
when ur stomach is full , have job and a roof. you can be idealistic. when u dont have them. suddenly all become realistic.
sounds like u are realistic, lol.
Yup we really need to help the lower income group more using money generated from our economy growth.
What I feel and see now, which may not be correct, is that most of the complaints, anger and dissatisfaction comes from the middle class. They are pushing for more benefits for themselves.
You are absolutely right, esp the lower middle income young generation. Keyboard warriors, lazy, dont want to work hard for more income. Overqualified for the benefit for the poor. Yet at a level tat is jealous of others suceess. Self centered, yet use EVERYONE IN SINGAPORE as a shield to justify their claim that "change of gov is good for everyone". Super naive.
sounds like u are realistic, lol.
well I am a realist. I dont like some talk so big. when shit happens all start blaming and whining.
Don't get seduced by oppositions who are easy to talk about welfare. It is easier to divide the cake than to make the cake. The brand of democracy that we have now is the more u contribute to the nation, the bigger your voice.
Fully agreed ...
All the resentment is really coming from jealousy ... What they don't have, others cannot have too ... But they fail to see their own shortcomings and work hard to achieve ... And importantly be contented with what they have achieve within their means
You are absolutely right, esp the lower middle income young generation. Keyboard warriors, lazy, dont want to work hard for more income. Overqualified for the benefit for the poor. Yet at a level tat is jealous of others suceess. Self centered, yet use EVERYONE IN SINGAPORE as a shield to justify their claim that "change of gov is good for everyone". Super naive.
Well did this version democratic system serve India and Taiwan well too? They sure stood the test of time.. just not getting anywhere much though.
Anyway on a full stomach got many things can say. GOD lah, freedom lah, freespeech lah, rights to hold arms lah even the freedom of my dog can talk abt it.
But when hungry no bread on table. Talk is plain cheap. Bread come 1st.
For the many who do not perform well in their democratic systems, there are many more who excel. Take countries like UK, Australia, NZ, Japan, US and many more. Shouldn't Singapore be compared with the best of the democracies in the world today?
We have witnessed since 1965, the ruling party is losing its superiority. The party no longer able to attract good and capable people to serve. They restore to grooming people from the army, civil service and union. People are not willing to join the party and hold office unless they are not worst off financially.
We are seeing more and better qualified people shuning the ruling party and instead joining other parties not for fame nor fortune but for the people and for democracy sake.
We are talking about a serious issue that will affect our future generation.
Perhaps, a full stomach is not the best time to engage on this heavy subject.
well I am a realist. I dont like some talk so big. when shit happens all start blaming and whining.
like u said "when ur stomach is full , have job and a roof. you can be idealistic. when u dont have them. suddenly all become realistic."
are u still hungry and roofless? :p
Why should be compare to UK, Australia, NZ etc?? Should we not compare to Mal, Indo, Thai??
There will be bound to have good ppl joining other parties but that doesn't mean that ruling parties is not worth joining and they are worst off...u can disagree but that is a fact.
What serious issues are we talking about? Riots, unrest, high crime rate, corruption, jobless??
My opinion is nowadays the younger gen who has never been thru all those unrest and shit and it is not easy for them to appreciate what we have achieve today now they are just asking for too much at times. I am not pro ruling party, I also want voice to be heard in paliment. But that doesn't means that it is time to have a change in ruling party and they are bad...
When I look at those interviews of couples talking about govt can do more in terms of incentive for them to have first baby or more babies, I really cannot help but shake my head, what the hell is this??? Pardon my harshness...:doh:
If u want to give birth and have good future for your children, work hard, and not just open your arms and hands and ask for more.
Where do we have this in the past?? U mean life is easier back then when we are building nation??
Just my opinion, if u disagree, it is ok, not to pick up with anyone...;)
Again, I always think that the current garmen can do more, let me stress that I'm neutral in terms of political inclination.
I think a balance is required, and balance is not always about 50:50....think again. :)
For the many who do not perform well in their democratic systems, there are many more who excel. Take countries like UK, Australia, NZ, Japan, US and many more. Shouldn't Singapore be compared with the best of the democracies in the world today?
We have witnessed since 1965, the ruling party is losing its superiority. The party no longer able to attract good and capable people to serve. They restore to grooming people from the army, civil service and union. People are not willing to join the party and hold office unless they are not worst off financially.
We are seeing more and better qualified people shuning the ruling party and instead joining other parties not for fame nor fortune but for the people and for democracy sake.
We are talking about a serious issue that will affect our future generation.
Perhaps, a full stomach is not the best time to engage on this heavy subject.
Don't get seduced by oppositions who are easy to talk about welfare. It is easier to divide the cake than to make the cake. The brand of democracy that we have now is the more u contribute to the nation, the bigger your voice.
what does it mean that you contribute more than your voice is "bigger"? This does not sound like a true democracy to me when all votes are equal to all eligible voters. Got undertable one meh ?! :scared-4:
like u said "when ur stomach is full , have job and a roof. you can be idealistic. when u dont have them. suddenly all become realistic."
are u still hungry and roofless? :p
I am full and have a shelter over my head - but I attribute this to the past government of LKY as they made housing affordable to my parents in turn. Not so sure whether I can say the same when my kids are of the working aget though
what does it mean that you contribute more than your voice is "bigger"? This does not sound like a true democracy to me when all votes are equal to all eligible voters. Got undertable one meh ?! :scared-4:
Voice=the ability to be heard
It is not equal to a vote, ie. If u are more credible people tend to listen to u therefore influence the number of voters
Voice=the ability to be heard
It is not equal to a vote, ie. If u are more credible people tend to listen to u therefore influence the number of voters
hmm ... i can think of examples of otherwise though ... think you are saying if one is more wealthy or more accomplished in career then he is probably more persuasive than others in making a stand to run public office?
Influencing voters is another thing altogether - you would be very surprised that there is a large segment of voters here that do have an independent mind of their own, conduct own asssessment after collating evidence on their own and make their own informed decision as to how they vote and not on how 'an established or wealthy' person say how they should vote
Talk so much, but AIM case still no answer.
If the party leadership don't even have the power to control their own guys, then what's the use of giving them a monopoly to control the people? :D
hmm ... i can think of examples of otherwise though ... think you are saying if one is more wealthy or more accomplished in career then he is probably more persuasive than others in making a stand to run public office?
Influencing voters is another thing altogether - you would be very surprised that there is a large segment of voters here that do have an independent mind of their own, conduct own asssessment after collating evidence on their own and make their own informed decision as to how they vote and not on how 'an established or wealthy' person say how they should vote
I don't think u want pursue a debate in this topic with me
Why should be compare to UK, Australia, NZ etc?? Should we not compare to Mal, Indo, Thai??
There will be bound to have good ppl joining other parties but that doesn't mean that ruling parties is not worth joining and they are worst off...u can disagree but that is a fact.
What serious issues are we talking about? Riots, unrest, high crime rate, corruption, jobless??
My opinion is nowadays the younger gen who has never been thru all those unrest and shit and it is not easy for them to appreciate what we have achieve today now they are just asking for too much at times. I am not pro ruling party, I also want voice to be heard in paliment. But that doesn't means that it is time to have a change in ruling party and they are bad...
When I look at those interviews of couples talking about govt can do more in terms of incentive for them to have first baby or more babies, I really cannot help but shake my head, what the hell is this??? Pardon my harshness...:doh:
If u want to give birth and have good future for your children, work hard, and not just open your arms and hands and ask for more.
Where do we have this in the past?? U mean life is easier back then when we are building nation??
Just my opinion, if u disagree, it is ok, not to pick up with anyone...;)
Again, I always think that the current garmen can do more, let me stress that I'm neutral in terms of political inclination.
I think a balance is required, and balance is not always about 50:50....think again. :)
You are looking at what is good and effective now and before and the results thus far cannot be denied. You are also making assumption that the current democratic system will work well into the future. This is where the trouble is.
In 1965, the PAP government decided on establishing the democratic system based on the British's model. The model is sustainable through a democratic process of balance of power.
In the 90s', the PAP government also realised that as the country progress and as our per capital income rises, the expectation of the people also rises. Each subsequent elections saw a reducing majority. There was a time during the 90s', when the PAP government was toying the idea of spliting the party into two-party for the sake of democracy. They decided against the idea becuase they felt that Singapore was too small with a small pool of talent for a two-party system to work well. The rest is history.
We are talking about a sustainable democratic system of government well into the future. Even the PAP government realised the short comings of the current model and fall short of spliting its party into two. The Institute of Political Science also believes that the PAP is preparing itself for the emerging of a two-party system for the greater good of Singapore.
I did not make any assumptions that the current system will work well in future. U need to learn how to appreciate...I only said there is room for improvement. A balance is required and if u read carefully, I said the balance is not necessarily 50:50.
I am not here to have a political debate. But u need not just express what u only want to express but ignore the root of what I have brought up. If u look at the roots, then u will realize that a good system else where doesn't mean it will work for us as well in future.
Again, don't just like gpmg and blast out anything u assume is rite which is not in sync with what I have brought up. Again, it is only my opinion.
Enough said :)
You are looking at what is good and effective now and before and the results thus far cannot be denied. You are also making assumption that the current democratic system will work well into the future. This is where the trouble is.
In 1965, the PAP government decided on establishing the democratic system based on the British's model. The model is sustainable through a democratic process of balance of power.
In the 90s', the PAP government also realised that as the country progress and as our per capital income rises, the expectation of the people also rises. Each subsequent elections saw a reducing majority. There was a time during the 90s', when the PAP government was toying the idea of spliting the party into two-party for the sake of democracy. They decided against the idea becuase they felt that Singapore was too small with a small pool of talent for a two-party system to work well. The rest is history.
We are talking about a sustainable democratic system of government well into the future. Even the PAP government realised the short comings of the current model and fall short of spliting its party into two. The Institute of Political Science also believes that the PAP is preparing itself for the emerging of a two-party system for the greater good of Singapore.
I did not make any assumptions that the current system will work well in future. U need to learn how to appreciate...I only said there is room for improvement. A balance is required and if u read carefully, I said the balance is not necessarily 50:50.
I am not here to have a political debate. But u need not just express what u only want to express but ignore the root of what I have brought up. If u look at the roots, then u will realize that a good system else where doesn't mean it will work for us as well in future.
Again, don't just like gpmg and blast out anything u assume is rite which is not in sync with what I have brought up. Again, it is only my opinion.
Enough said :)
I think we are looking at things at a different level.
I am more toward the sustainability of the current democratic system and hence my views. You are looking at the improvements of the government and not the democratic system per se.
Yes! we are not engaging at all.
I don't think u want pursue a debate in this topic with me
I am just merely pointing out the contrary position. Relax leh :(
Voice=the ability to be heard
It is not equal to a vote, ie. If u are more credible people tend to listen to u therefore influence the number of voters
Iraq's Saddam Hussein consistently got close to 100% votes in Iraqi elections. So does Suharto, during his reign, no? Does that mean they are credible? LOL
I am just merely pointing out the contrary position. Relax leh :(
I take that u are interested in my opinion. Why are u implying there is a clash between peasants and bourgeois class in sg? Is there a case where economic participation is excluded?
Allthepies
12-02-13, 11:36
Another observation I see, again which may not be true, is that the current debate is focusing on the short comings of the system. However one must always measure the short comings against the benefits. All system has both short comings and benefits, what we call trade offs. It should be taken as a whole package. The clever opposition is attacking only the short comings and some people are persuaded by this type of one sided arguments.
Another observation I see, again which may not be true, is that the current debate is focusing on the short comings of the system. However one must always measure the short comings against the benefits. All system has both short comings and benefits, what we call trade offs. It should be taken as a whole package. The clever opposition is attacking only the short comings and some people are persuaded by this type of one sided arguments.
take a look back at my post #119.
read what the Straits times Editor have to say in the Sunday Times article titled 'Govt Needs To Regain People's Trust'.
I repeat what he wrote here again:
"Someone put this question to me earlier in the week: The Govt says having one mio more people in spore in 10 years' time will be good for the country. But we had one mio more people in the last 10 years - how did that benefit us?
I couldn't persuade him that it made the economy more vibrant and added to the buzz of the place."
So it is clear when it comes to measuring trade-offs, even some pro-establishment people are telling the govt to wake up bcos the tradeoffs have not been beneficial to most citizens.
Another observation I see, again which may not be true, is that the current debate is focusing on the short comings of the system. However one must always measure the short comings against the benefits. All system has both short comings and benefits, what we call trade offs. It should be taken as a whole package. The clever opposition is attacking only the short comings and some people are persuaded by this type of one sided arguments.
I do not think that people are persuaded by one-sided arguments by the oppoisition since the ruling party has all the machineries through the media to get their own message across.
The problem facing the ruling party is a difficult one. The law of diminishing returns mean that it is even more difficult to see improvements now that we have moved from third world to first world.
People are now looking at how to improve our political and democratic system and thus the increasing popularity of the WP. People realise the short comings in our democratic system and want to improve on it. Indeed our democratic system falls short of the desired elements for it to be sustainable in the longer term.
Perhaps, this is a natural progression from the third world to the first world. Even the ruling party is preparing for the coming.
I take that u are interested in my opinion. Why are u implying there is a clash between peasants and bourgeois class in sg? Is there a case where economic participation is excluded?
Not sure why you think I am making that implication - that's not what I am saying. I am saying public housing and private housing pricing should be differentiated and not linked like current pricing structure. Think the discussion should be primarily property focused and not class divides as this is simply not the case being made in my posts
Not sure why you think I am making that implication - that's not what I am saying. I am saying public housing and private housing pricing should be differentiated and not linked like current pricing structure. Think the discussion should be primarily property focused and not class divides as this is simply not the case being made in my posts
Let Office Boy try to (though maybe not very good Engrish) summarise what is happening on the ground.
1) People want more opposition in parliament - maybe a 20-25%, enough to make incumbent party sit up and listen
2) People DONT WANT opposition to run the gahmen. And we all know at this moment, next 5-10 years this is the case.
3) Many people want property prices to go down, but even MORE wants it to go up. But those who would love to see it go up wont dare to make too much noise in public.
4) Your property is your more important retirement asset (for most people). So its value cannot go down (if we can prevent it). Everyone knows that.
That's all!
DKSG
Not sure why you think I am making that implication - that's not what I am saying. I am saying public housing and private housing pricing should be differentiated and not linked like current pricing structure. Think the discussion should be primarily property focused and not class divides as this is simply not the case being made in my posts
Are u saying current pricing structure doesn't differentiate public housing and private housing?
take a look back at my post #119.
read what the Straits times Editor have to say in the Sunday Times article titled 'Govt Needs To Regain People's Trust'.
I repeat what he wrote here again:
"Someone put this question to me earlier in the week: The Govt says having one mio more people in spore in 10 years' time will be good for the country. But we had one mio more people in the last 10 years - how did that benefit us?
I couldn't persuade him that it made the economy more vibrant and added to the buzz of the place."
So it is clear when it comes to measuring trade-offs, even some pro-establishment people are telling the govt to wake up bcos the tradeoffs have not been beneficial to most citizens.
One interviewed person represent the whole nation?
For the many who do not perform well in their democratic systems, there are many more who excel. Take countries like UK, Australia, NZ, Japan, US and many more. Shouldn't Singapore be compared with the best of the democracies in the world today?
We have witnessed since 1965, the ruling party is losing its superiority. The party no longer able to attract good and capable people to serve. They restore to grooming people from the army, civil service and union. People are not willing to join the party and hold office unless they are not worst off financially.
We are seeing more and better qualified people shuning the ruling party and instead joining other parties not for fame nor fortune but for the people and for democracy sake.
We are talking about a serious issue that will affect our future generation.
Perhaps, a full stomach is not the best time to engage on this heavy subject.
Ok since u like Australia. Lets take a look at Australia. I have a coffee with a Australian friend that was pass through singapore the last few days. He watch the speech by PM on the white paper. He was amazed at the long term view and the williness the goverment willing to share. He feel that compares to Australia politics singapore are so much more focus . Australian politics spend so much time bickering in the parliament n they can never get anything done. He also comment that the meritocracy system here is fantastic. Having to pay 30-45% tax so some people can go on dole is insane. N he know people that are paid alcoholics . Basically get medically endorsed as alcoholics the get 500 a week as they are sick! N in turn go back to happily drinking. N many people are piss off with that.
http://www.isnare.com/?aid=1757294&ca=Politics
Neilsen pollster John Stirton says, ” Voters are unhappy with politics and politicians, and the hung parliament hasn’t helped. The minority nature has damaged the government and it has damaged the system.”
So this working for Australia ?
rymccondo77
12-02-13, 19:37
Ok since u like Australia. Lets take a look at Australia. I have a coffee with a Australian friend that was pass through singapore the last few days. He watch the speech by PM on the white paper. He was amazed at the long term view and the williness the goverment willing to share. He feel that compares to Australia politics singapore are so much more focus . Australian politics spend so much time bickering in the parliament n they can never get anything done. He also comment that the meritocracy system here is fantastic. Having to pay 30-45% tax so some people can go on dole is insane. N he know people that are paid alcoholics . Basically get medically endorsed as alcoholics the get 500 a week as they are sick! N in turn go back to happily drinking. N many people are piss off with that.
http://www.isnare.com/?aid=1757294&ca=Politics
Neilsen pollster John Stirton says, ” Voters are unhappy with politics and politicians, and the hung parliament hasn’t helped. The minority nature has damaged the government and it has damaged the system.”
So this working for Australia ?
All is not green over there in Australia. Today's Straits Times featured a story of a Malaysian Born Australian (Jeremy Fernandez) who was subjected to a barrage of racist taunts while traveling with his 2 year old daughter on a bus in Sydney - he was called a black c**t and told to go back to his country.
ppl has to learn how to appreciate. be gracious. be diligent. :o
why nowadays this forum got so many politics-related posting, like channelnewsasia. :doh:
All is not green over there in Australia. Today's Straits Times featured a story of a Malaysian Born Australian (Jeremy Fernandez) who was subjected to a barrage of racist taunts while traveling with his 2 year old daughter on a bus in Sydney - he was called a black c**t and told to go back to his country.
I couldn t agree more. Australia s a great country to holiday in, but to stay, I beg to differ. I ve had numerous encounters with racism in Australia, and I ve numerous friends who ve encountered racism one way or another while studying there. Maybe it highlights their insecurities? Who knows...
For the many who do not perform well in their democratic systems, there are many more who excel. Take countries like UK, Australia, NZ, Japan, US and many more. Shouldn't Singapore be compared with the best of the democracies in the world today?
We have witnessed since 1965, the ruling party is losing its superiority. The party no longer able to attract good and capable people to serve. They restore to grooming people from the army, civil service and union. People are not willing to join the party and hold office unless they are not worst off financially.
We are seeing more and better qualified people shuning the ruling party and instead joining other parties not for fame nor fortune but for the people and for democracy sake.
We are talking about a serious issue that will affect our future generation.
Perhaps, a full stomach is not the best time to engage on this heavy subject.
Sorry I couldn t help but react to this. My last post on politics. Errrm the so called version of "democracy" in the States really just boils down to TWO parties. Republicans and democrats. Its really easy to be one or the other. You just oppose what the other says. Somebody wants tax hikes, you go for tax cuts. The other wants spending increase, you go for spending reductions. Oh and the US just makes bribery sound good. They re called lobbyists. Thats democracy for you. :)
Sorry I couldn t help but react to this. My last post on politics. Errrm the so called version of "democracy" in the States really just boils down to TWO parties. Republicans and democrats. Its really easy to be one or the other. You just oppose what the other says. Somebody wants tax hikes, you go for tax cuts. The other wants spending increase, you go for spending reductions. Oh and the US just makes bribery sound good. They re called lobbyists. Thats democracy for you. :)
So no lobbyists in spore? Oh they are part of the ruling party, hahaha.
Ok since u like Australia. Lets take a look at Australia. I have a coffee with a Australian friend that was pass through singapore the last few days. He watch the speech by PM on the white paper. He was amazed at the long term view and the williness the goverment willing to share. He feel that compares to Australia politics singapore are so much more focus . Australian politics spend so much time bickering in the parliament n they can never get anything done. He also comment that the meritocracy system here is fantastic. Having to pay 30-45% tax so some people can go on dole is insane. N he know people that are paid alcoholics . Basically get medically endorsed as alcoholics the get 500 a week as they are sick! N in turn go back to happily drinking. N many people are piss off with that.
http://www.isnare.com/?aid=1757294&ca=Politics
Neilsen pollster John Stirton says, ” Voters are unhappy with politics and politicians, and the hung parliament hasn’t helped. The minority nature has damaged the government and it has damaged the system.”
So this working for Australia ?
quoting you: one interviewed person represent the whole nation?! :doh:
Sorry I couldn t help but react to this. My last post on politics. Errrm the so called version of "democracy" in the States really just boils down to TWO parties. Republicans and democrats. Its really easy to be one or the other. You just oppose what the other says. Somebody wants tax hikes, you go for tax cuts. The other wants spending increase, you go for spending reductions. Oh and the US just makes bribery sound good. They re called lobbyists. Thats democracy for you. :)
You appear to have missed the essence of democracy. As explained earlier, the usefulness of a two-party system is ensuring that the ruling party would not take things to the extreme. There is always an alternative for the people if they believe the ruling party is loosing its bearing. The evolution of a democratic system would mean that eventually it would centre to probably two strong parties. The essence of democracy is really about ensuring that the democratic system will continue to be relevant in the future since there is always READY another party to run the country.
It is not about 'opposing for the sake of opposing' even though it always appear to be because of vested interest and politicking. The democratic system assumes and believes that the people will make the right decision who should run the country given what is presented to them. The party who can convince the marjority forms the government.
You appear to have missed the essence of democracy. As explained earlier, the usefulness of a two-party system is ensuring that the ruling party would not take things to the extreme. There is always an alternative for the people if they believe the ruling party is loosing its bearing. The evolution of a democratic system would mean that eventually it would centre to probably two strong parties. The essence of democracy is really about ensuring that the democratic system will continue to be relevant in the future since there is always READY another party to run the country.
It is not about 'opposing for the sake of opposing' even though it always appear to be because of vested interest and politicking. The democratic system assumes and believes that the people will make the right decision who should run the country given what is presented to them. The party who can convince the marjority forms the government.
yup, i concur too. if want a one party system, might as well revert to ancient chinese dynastic rule.
look at myanmar, look at n korea. no official opposition = commoners pray hard that the top honcho isn't a self gratifying, sadistic, out-of-touch moron
Ok since u like Australia. Lets take a look at Australia. I have a coffee with a Australian friend that was pass through singapore the last few days. He watch the speech by PM on the white paper. He was amazed at the long term view and the williness the goverment willing to share. He feel tolitics and politicians, and the hung parliament hasn’t helped. The minority nature has damaged the government and it has damaged the system.”
So this working for Australia ?
Ok.. So did you ask your australian friend.. since he likes singapore governance so much... and he is "complaining" (what we often say of singaporean bitching about the govt) of his own govt so much.. Would he consider becoming a Singapore Citizen . A lot of people will ask the "complainers" to emigrate if they are not happy with singapore govt way of doing thing. So likewise, the same question should be posed to be him.
If not, Why not? What's keeping him in Australia despite all the dismal performance of the government.
All is not green over there in Australia. Today's Straits Times featured a story of a Malaysian Born Australian (Jeremy Fernandez) who was subjected to a barrage of racist taunts while traveling with his 2 year old daughter on a bus in Sydney - he was called a black c**t and told to go back to his country.
Yes.. Don't be misled to think ang moh countries are the best. I've had my share of abuse(3 minor incidents in the span of 1.5yrs there).
However, to put things in perspective... can you see why singaporeans are so upset when our ministers put out big words like "Don't be a xenophobic"..
Compared to those you experience in ang moh countries.. you think we are xenophobic?
Yes.. Don't be misled to think ang moh countries are the best. I've had my share of abuse(3 minor incidents in the span of 1.5yrs there).
However, to put things in perspective... can you see why singaporeans are so upset when our ministers put out big words like "Don't be a xenophobic"..
Compared to those you experience in ang moh countries.. you think we are xenophobic?
didn't some uni students, from SMU and NUS, make a video and mocked a certain race? that is racism and xenophobic to a certain extent. what about us? don't we rant about PRCs or indians in some of the threads? remember the viral video about the crazy auntie on a MRT, who went off a rage cussing a sweet mei-mei and accusing her to be a PRC before checking?
the ill feelings of xenophobia are present in all societies, it's just a matter of how these feelings are being expressed. so to answer your question - are we, Singaporeans, xenophobic? yes. do we subject foreigners to racist abuse? for the majority, no
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