View Full Version : **Market Sentiment Check**
As requested by Chestnut.
Whats your gut feeling about the property market in the next 2 years.
Your vote is anonymous, but feel free to contribute your comments.
As requested by Chestnut.
Whats your gut feeling about the property market in the next 2 years.
Your vote is anonymous, but feel free to contribute your comments.
Brudder Ringo, kum sia....
Dear forummers, your participation is appreciated... If will allow us a better idea of what the investors think....
Hopefully after this, I can do a poll on would u sell you investment props???
Once again Ringo, thanks...:cheers4:
Btw, u put the poll question hor, I really don't know how to put leh??? The way u put and the way I will put so different leh... Complements to you... With your questions, now I can see clear...
Saw the prelim result, +\- 5% range.. Interesting...
My dear brudders and sisters, thank u. I now know if I need to sell my properties.
Kum Sia
Dear bros and sis, I will give my interpretation on the survey tomorrow. Please keep voting...
Then we discuss hor. I want to hear your views
:cheers4: :cheers4: :cheers4:
princess_morbucks
26-07-13, 10:08
I voted for flat.
After I voted then I saw this article which confirmed my gut feeling.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.todayonline.com/singapore/private-home-prices-picked-q2
SINGAPORE — Private home prices here rose by 1.0 per cent in the second quarter of this year, an increase over the 0.6 per cent price growth recorded in the previous three months, the Urban Redevelopment Authority (URA) said today (July 26).
Flash estimates released on July first showed a 0.8 per cent increase in private residential property prices, meaning prices rose further towards the end of last month.
Strong demand for condos in the suburban areas led the way. Prices in the Outside Central Region (OCR) of non-landed private property rose 3.8 per cent, compared with a 1.4 per cent increase in Q1 2013.
Prices of non-landed private properties in the Core Central Region (CCR) declined by 0.2 per cent in Q2, compared with a 0.6 per cent increase in the previous three months.
In the Rest of Central Region (RCR), prices increased by 0.2 per cent, which is the same rate of increase as in the previous quarter.
Rentals of private residential properties slowed in the second quarter 2013, registering a 0.3 per cent rise which is significantly lower than the 0.8 per cent increase in Q1.
For new private property launches, developers put 4,395 uncompleted private residential units (excluding Executive Condominiums or ECs) on the market in the Q2, fewer than the 5,546 units in first quarter.
Developers sold 4,538 private residential units in Q2, lower than the 5,412 units sold in the previous quarter.
I voted for flat. Reasons - opinion after monitoring caveat, news and sentiment from ppl around me. :ashamed1:
Dear bros and sis, I will give my interpretation on the survey tomorrow. Please keep voting...
Then we discuss hor. I want to hear your views
:cheers4: :cheers4: :cheers4:
My dear bros and sis, please vote hor, bigger sampling the BEST...
The analysis report will happen.
chrischocolates
26-07-13, 12:46
July27
TDSR Talk
Date: Saturday, 27 July 2013
Time: 2.30pm till 4pm
Venue: Bartley Ridge Showflat (Near Bartley MRT)
RSVP for seats 98348607
July27
TDSR Talk
Date: Saturday, 27 July 2013
Time: 2.30pm till 4pm
Venue: Bartley Ridge Showflat (Near Bartley MRT)
RSVP for seats 98348607
Stop spamming.
Come on folks. Its 2 years....... Not 2 months. How realistic that a property price is staying flat in the next 2 years? Or even going down in 2 years?
In 2 months it might go down.... But in 2 years I guarantee it will go up.
Come on folks. Its 2 years....... Not 2 months. How realistic that a property price is staying flat in the next 2 years? Or even going down in 2 years?
In 2 months it might go down.... But in 2 years I guarantee it will go up.
once i spotted an employee mis-operating a machine. I asked the employee about it.
Employee :dont worry boss, i guarantee the machine won't spoilt.
Hopeful: you guarantee with what? your entire salary for 5 years also cannot buy the machine. so dont tell me you can guarantee. Now do as you are told. "jangan ngomong kosong aja"
ever since that time, i has always dislike it when people say they guarantee something. "they guarantee with what?"
once i spotted an employee mis-operating a machine. I asked the employee about it.
Employee :dont worry boss, i guarantee the machine won't spoilt.
Hopeful: you guarantee with what? your entire salary for 5 years also cannot buy the machine. so dont tell me you can guarantee. Now do as you are told. "jangan ngomong kosong aja"
ever since that time, i has always dislike it when people say they guarantee something. "they guarantee with what?"
In the next 2 years when AEC begin, the economic chasm between richest – the wealthy city-state Singapore – and poorest – newly-reforming Myanmar: 1:61 measured by GDP per capita, compared with 1:8 in Europe (EC).
Even if Sg is not growing economically or in population, its already super competitive. Its like putting a hungry shark in a pond. It will eat anything. Sg will be like a super germany in EC. I can guarantee that.
Haha....I like this shark...I would love to support u but, I should not annoy anyone with the word guarantee, I would say, most likely, optimistically and barring unforeseen circumstances, the price should go up. Why, because another thing is, your money confirm depreciate...:D and I would narrow down to a few OCR/CCR areas...not all will have increased, in my opinion, even if yes, it will be rather insignificant.
In the next 2 years when AEC begin, the economic chasm between richest – the wealthy city-state Singapore – and poorest – newly-reforming Myanmar: 1:61 measured by GDP per capita, compared with 1:8 in Europe (EC).
Even if Sg is not growing economically or in population, its already super competitive. Its like putting a hungry shark in a pond. It will eat anything. Sg will be like a super germany in EC. I can guarantee that.
The key word here is 2 years.
Since 2011, I have been repeating again and again that going forward (from 2011) we will see the market moving in the 1% every month/quarter range. So for next TWO years, it should at least be up by 8%.
So far, I think the actual results came in quite close.
DKSG
The key word here is 2 years.
Since 2011, I have been repeating again and again that going forward (from 2011) we will see the market moving in the 1% every month/quarter range. So for next TWO years, it should at least be up by 8%.
So far, I think the actual results came in quite close.
DKSG
The power imbalances between the country is so huge, that sg economy could potentially double in the next 10 years. This one I don't guarantee, but I could safely bet on it.
Haha....I like this shark...I would love to support u but, I should not annoy anyone with the word guarantee, I would say, most likely, optimistically and barring unforeseen circumstances, the price should go up. Why, because another thing is, your money confirm depreciate...:D and I would narrow down to a few OCR/CCR areas...not all will have increased, in my opinion, even if yes, it will be rather insignificant.
That is what I can agree.
At least you did not paint all rosy picture like many here with hidden agenda.
The market can only be SAFE for a gradual ride if you get rid of people who overstretch themselves in property. This group even if only 5% will bring down the 95%.
The 5% are the weakholders. Only the strong ones can hold. And that is called " HOLDING POWER" in investment.
Why "HOLDING POWER" ? Holding power means you can ride out any possible risks in your property investment without being forced to sell.
Now, can you say the same for everyone in the market?
There are many greedy ones and definately as I suspected long ago, some crazy langs will definately take great risks in this market thereby sabotaging our investment.
I voted FLAT barring any Blackswan event.
Hello good bro, I'm not encouraging over leveraging...but if interest rate is really low for next few years as what i think, these 5% will be more richer by then...
And if they are really affected by raising rates, don't worry, the banks will be smiling....they will eat up and u should know what they would do. Our banks are prepared! :D
That is what I can agree.
At least you did not paint all rosy picture like many here with hidden agenda.
The market can only be SAFE for a gradual ride if you get rid of people who overstretch themselves in property. This group even if only 5% will bring down the 95%.
The 5% are the weakholders. Only the strong ones can hold. And that is called " HOLDING POWER" in investment.
Why "HOLDING POWER" ? Holding power means you can ride out any possible risks in your property investment without being forced to sell.
Now, can you say the same for everyone in the market?
There are many greedy ones and definately as I suspected long ago, some crazy langs will definately take great risks in this market thereby sabotaging our investment.
I voted FLAT barring any Blackswan event.
http://www.jbic.go.jp/en/report/jbic-today/2007/03/img/02_figure_01.gif
Asean economies set to double GDP by 2020 says IHS
Emerging markets in Asia to be fastest growing in world as free trade boosts GDP to US$4.7tr
Paul Soh
[email protected]
The Asean economy will double by 2020, with the nominal gross domestic product of the regional bloc increasing from US$2 trillion in 2012 to US$4.7 trillion, the global information company IHS says.
Rajiv Biswas, Asia-Pacific chief economist at IHS, speaking at a Hong Kong General Chamber of Commerce conference on the outlook for emerging markets in Asia, said: "Asean is experiencing strong growth across the board.
"Frontier markets such as Vietnam and Myanmar are opening up, while Indonesia is expected to continue to grow."
IHS says in its global insight report that Vietnam and Myanmar are expected to reach a nominal GDP of US$290 billion and US$103 billion respectively by 2020 while Indonesia is expected to reach a projected nominal GDP of about US$1.9 trillion.
The IHS report says that overall, emerging markets in Asia are expected to be the fastest growing in the world and would continue to expand. It estimated that the GDP growth of emerging markets would exceed that of developed countries in 2020, continuing to expand thereafter.
Biswas said Asean was reaping the benefits of the free trade agreement signed with China in 2010 which formed the largest free trade area in terms of population and the third largest in terms of trade volume after the euro zone and the North American Free Trade Area.
"Intra-Asia partnerships will transform the landscape," he said. "The Asean-China free trade agreement has been successful, with Chinese exports to Asean growing by 21 per cent last year. Momentum is expected to continue with the potential implementation of the Asean Economic Community in 2015."
The Asean Economic Community aims to create a single market and production base that would allow Asean to be fully integrated into the global economy by 2015.
Biswas said that while it was unlikely that the Asean Economic Community will achieve all its goals by 2015, a partial achievement is possible as extensive negotiations get under way.
http://www.cfoinnovation.com/system/files/cfo/ASEAN_GDP_2000-30.jpg
Now I speak about all this over leveraging thingy and u guys think very hard ok... Tis are investment homes ok....
Jan 2011, the cooling measure was for 40% downpayment...
1. Those who bought before jan 2011 paid downpayment of 20%
- Have the prices of their property rised since then????
- are they over leveraged????
- have their salaries increased over the past few years????
2. Those who bought after jan 2011 paid downpayment of 40% or more...
- are their monthly repayment lower than those who paid 20%. Do a simulation on loan amount and u will be surprised at monthly repayment....
- how in the world did they come up with so much cash????
I leave it to you to draw your own conclusion....
:cheers4: :cheers4: :cheers4:
Indonesia nominal gdp increases from 165 billions to 892 billions in 12 years (541%)
Singapore nominal gdp increases from 94 billions to 276 billions in 12 years (294%)
Now u know why Jakarta property prices increase is much higher than sg.
Indonesia nominal gdp increases from 165 billions to 892 billions in 12 years (541%)
Singapore nominal gdp increases from 94 billions to 276 billions in 12 years (294%)
Now u know why Jakarta property prices increase is much higher than sg.
Bro,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_rupiah#Asian_Financial_Crisis_.28and_response.29_1997.E2.80.931999
Look at the us to rupiah exchange rate prior to 1997 and the rate today....
Those indo who bot properties overseas all became super rich because of the collapse of the rupiah.....
See how much it weakened????
;)
Many who borrowed in Singapore to take advantage of the lower interest rate got burnt....
Bro,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_rupiah#Asian_Financial_Crisis_.28and_response.29_1997.E2.80.931999
Look at the us to rupiah exchange rate prior to 1997 and the rate today....
Those indo who bot properties overseas all became super rich because of the collapse of the rupiah.....
See how much it weakened????
;)
Many who borrowed in Singapore to take advantage of the lower interest rate got burnt....
Yes bro.... Especially sg property. When I bought mine sgd to rupiah is around 6600 now 8200. Even if my property not increase, I am sure to make money.
Yes bro.... Especially sg property. When I bought mine sgd to rupiah is around 6600 now 8200. Even if my property not increase, I am sure to make money.
Well done bro... During the financial crisis. The rupiah dropped like crazy.... The retailers didn't have time to react, so a few smart Singaporeans went to indo to buy Rolex, etc... still at rupiah rate... U can imagine the "discount" they get hor....
:cheers4: :cheers4: :cheers4:
Learnt a lot from the crisis....
My customer in Indo had difficulty to pay me because of exchange rate... Hahahaha
Well done bro... During the financial crisis. The rupiah dropped like crazy.... The retailers didn't have time to react, so a few smart Singaporeans went to indo to buy Rolex, etc... still at rupiah rate... U can imagine the "discount" they get hor....
:cheers4: :cheers4: :cheers4:
Learnt a lot from the crisis....
Actually I already anticipate the collapse of rupiah because they are going to issue a new note that omitted the last 3 zeros from the note.
A bit free now, so here comes e analysis... Broken into 3 parts. Bulls, bears and the people in the forum.
1. Views from the Bears
So many people voted flat and up... Total of > 70+ %.... Too many 'bullish' views... It's time to get out..... Hahahaha
2. Views from bulls
See so many people voted flat and up... Total of > 70+ %.... Just collect rental alone and u can make money... On top of that, got so many good things coming...
3. My analysis for those who voted...
Dear bros and sis.... Now my view... My view will be dependent on your thinking...
- do u think the people who come to this forum are savvy????
- how many % do u think are savvy?????
- if u voted, do u believe in yoursel???
I believe the people who come to this forum are savvy. I believe they want to learn that's why they come to this forum. I believe most are truthful....
Based on the above, u come to your own conclusion hor.... My analysis is yours....
:cheers4: :cheers4: :cheers4:
You raised a very good point indeed!
Many who borrow in S$ to buy foreign properties now thinking very good deal because interest rate much lower will be in to get burnt again! :doh:
Bro,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_rupiah#Asian_Financial_Crisis_.28and_response.29_1997.E2.80.931999
Look at the us to rupiah exchange rate prior to 1997 and the rate today....
Those indo who bot properties overseas all became super rich because of the collapse of the rupiah.....
See how much it weakened????
;)
Many who borrowed in Singapore to take advantage of the lower interest rate got burnt....
You raised a very good point indeed!
Many who borrow in S$ to buy foreign properties now thinking very good deal because interest rate much lower will be in to get burnt again! :doh:
Unless their bankers con them, else those who deliberately dont match their asset and liability are taking 2 tier of forex risks.
DKSG
indonesian
26-07-13, 22:23
Don't keep cash in Rupiah,
Yes bro.... Especially sg property. When I bought mine sgd to rupiah is around 6600 now 8200. Even if my property not increase, I am sure to make money.
I voted flat, but only for condo only. I see landed property prices going down by at least 10%.
So gov is trying to suck up liquidity with the massive downpayment for cars and properties. I often think if u r already vested, do u want your $ to be sucked up by buying more?
So gov is trying to suck up liquidity with the massive downpayment for cars and properties. I often think if u r already vested, do u want your $ to be sucked up by buying more?
If you can find a property that is selling for 10% below valuation, wont you ?
DKSG
puffer_fish
27-07-13, 01:51
Even though I am currently looking for a place, my feel is that it would remain flat.
During the early 90s, where all the huge fluctuation occurs, investors have already learned a lesson. What goes up must come down and vice versa.
So long you have sufficient cash to stay afloat, nothing much would happen. Unless, you don’t have the funds to keep afloat….then it’s a different story.:D
My humble opinion is, having gone through so much experience; investors know that so long there no world war. Property like all investment tools would experience it’s up and down.
You can print monies and stocks certificate, but you can’t print a house.:D
Worst case, I used it as my warehouse, since my business has such requirements.
if not, just give it to my children which eventually would materialize :D
Brudder puffer, I tell u something... In the very near future, u can print a house. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA*
http://qz.com/68780/architects-are-starting-to-3d-print-houses-but-without-a-house-sized-printer/
Did u know, in James Bond latest movie, they printed an Aston Martin???
http://gizmodo.com/5959717/skyfall-filmmakers-3d+printed-this-rare-aston-martin-so-they-wouldnt-damage-the-original
Even though I am currently looking for a place, my feel is that it would remain flat.
During the early 90s, where all the huge fluctuation occurs, investors have already learned a lesson. What goes up must come down and vice versa.
So long you have sufficient cash to stay afloat, nothing much would happen. Unless, you don’t have the funds to keep afloat….then it’s a different story.:D
My humble opinion is, having gone through so much experience; investors know that so long there no world war. Property like all investment tools would experience it’s up and down.
You can print monies and stocks certificate, but you can’t print a house.:D
Worst case, I used it as my warehouse, since my business has such requirements.
if not, just give it to my children which eventually would materialize :D
is a printed car subjected to COE??
is a printed car subjected to COE??
No COE can get licence plate or not???
Brudder puffer, I tell u something... In the very near future, u can print a house. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA*
http://qz.com/68780/architects-are-starting-to-3d-print-houses-but-without-a-house-sized-printer/
Did u know, in James Bond latest movie, they printed an Aston Martin???
http://gizmodo.com/5959717/skyfall-filmmakers-3d+printed-this-rare-aston-martin-so-they-wouldnt-damage-the-original
You can print a replica, but you cannot print a house or a car. Their mechanical properties will suffer.
You can print a replica, but you cannot print a house or a car. Their mechanical properties will suffer.
The day will come... Like mainframe... Everybody thot it was impossible to have a "mainframe" or should I say, computer in every home. Today's pc is more powerful than the first mainframe.
Who would have thot, phone can sharing to this size from a brick.
Who would have thot Internet would change our lives and the lives of paperbag novels, news, stock broking biz, etc....
The day will come... Like mainframe... Everybody thot it was impossible to have a "mainframe" or should I say, computer in every home. Today's pc is more powerful than the first mainframe.
Who would have thot, phone can sharing to this size from a brick.
Who would have thot Internet would change our lives and the lives of paperbag novels, news, stock broking biz, etc....
The concept is different. To print, the materials must be in powder form during printing and fuse together in the object. The melting points of metals and ceramics are too high. Substitutes for current plastic (e.g. PS) may be too expensive. If printing is so feasible and cost effective, you might as well print a fresh fish or durain to eat.
No COE can get licence plate or not???
Lol. If only.
As long as MM markets is alive and well, market expectation will remain high because of higher psf transaction. So as long as URA doesnt put a stop to MM apartment I dont think property prices will crash.
Having said that, I cant say the same for large quantum properties such as landed.
Here is why.
When interest rate rise by 2.25%, your mortgage payment will jump 35%
When interest rate rise by 3.75%, your mortgage payment will jump 61%
When interest rate rise by 2.25%, your interest payment will jump 83%
When interest rate rise by 3.75%, your interest payment will jump 308%
When interest rate rise by 2.25%, buyer household income will have to increase by 35%
When interest rate rise by 3.75%, buyer household income will have to increase by 61%
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/8549/0jjs.jpg
rymccondo77
27-07-13, 09:40
As long as MM markets is alive and well, market expectation will remain high because of higher psf transaction. So as long as URA doesnt put a stop to MM apartment I dont think property prices will crash.
Having said that, I cant say the same for large quantum properties such as landed.
Here is why.
When interest rate rise by 2.25%, your mortgage payment will jump 35%
When interest rate rise by 3.75%, your mortgage payment will jump 61%
When interest rate rise by 2.25%, your interest payment will jump 83%
When interest rate rise by 3.75%, your interest payment will jump 308%
When interest rate rise by 2.25%, buyer household income will have to increase by 35%
When interest rate rise by 3.75%, buyer household income will have to increase by 61%
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/8549/0jjs.jpg
Thanks for the analysis :)
rymccondo77
27-07-13, 09:42
The concept is different. To print, the materials must be in powder form during printing and fuse together in the object. The melting points of metals and ceramics are too high. Substitutes for current plastic (e.g. PS) may be too expensive. If printing is so feasible and cost effective, you might as well print a fresh fish or durain to eat.
Agree - and u can't print living things!
I think it is a shame to use MM PC computation and hoola hop it on landed.
Like what my mentor says, many here do not understand landed owners. Most landed owners are not the marginal owners (I say most). To them the question is whether to pay for the property in full or use the cash for some other investments.
If there is a correction, the worse hit will be those OCR units, where people rely solely on dual income and rental income to make their investments work. The caveat here is jobs. If they still have their jobs, still ok, if not, be prepared to see OCRs PC drop like no bottom.
Sun Tzu once mentioned (I think) (or is it Mr Zhu Geliang?), you must know your enemy and battle grounds before engaging in battles.
This in property investment means you must know what kind of price environment you are buying into and who will your future buyers be. If you rely on dual income 2 kids kinda buyers, then you better be confident that their income will rise quick quick to buy your unit, if their income stay stagnant, then you will have to wait long long.
This is why CCR always command a premium, because most owners will not lelong their properties, as mentioned by someone else earlier, at most they hold.
Most investors have 1-2 years of instalments as spare cash sitting in some Premier/Privilege/Gold account somewhere out there.
DKSG
That is why the wealthy gets wealthier in good and bad times.
I think it is a shame to use MM PC computation and hoola hop it on landed.
Like what my mentor says, many here do not understand landed owners. Most landed owners are not the marginal owners (I say most). To them the question is whether to pay for the property in full or use the cash for some other investments.
If there is a correction, the worse hit will be those OCR units, where people rely solely on dual income and rental income to make their investments work.
This is why CCR always command a premium, because most owners will not lelong their properties, as mentioned by someone else earlier, at most they hold.
Most investors have 1-2 years of instalments as spare cash sitting in some Premier/Privilege/Gold account somewhere out there.
DKSG
Bro DKSG, don't get fooled by looks...
You see someone drive Ferrari means he rich???
You see someone with Patek means he rich????
You see him drive merc, BMW, lexus means he rich????
You see him stay in CCR means he rich????
You see someone go michilin chef restaurant (Singapore got not michilin restaurant hor) means he rich???
Brudder, open your eye BIG, BiG....:scared-4:
Some people in the forum stay big big house also over leverage leh....
It is the young who just enter into the rich club that howlian and always demand and demand... It is the young with new money that will show off....
If CCR always solid, why CCR drop over past few years...
Bro, CCR may go up in future hor... But CCR not always hot one hor...
Not all CCRs are the same hor....
Give example... U drive merc a160, means u arrived????
Don't angst with me hor... My England not so powderfool.... So sometime I very tid (hokkien) one hor(straight forward in England)
:cheers4: :cheers4: :cheers4:
I think it is a shame to use MM PC computation and hoola hop it on landed.
Like what my mentor says, many here do not understand landed owners. Most landed owners are not the marginal owners (I say most). To them the question is whether to pay for the property in full or use the cash for some other investments.
If there is a correction, the worse hit will be those OCR units, where people rely solely on dual income and rental income to make their investments work. The caveat here is jobs. If they still have their jobs, still ok, if not, be prepared to see OCRs PC drop like no bottom.
Sun Tzu once mentioned (I think) (or is it Mr Zhu Geliang?), you must know your enemy and battle grounds before engaging in battles.
This in property investment means you must know what kind of price environment you are buying into and who will your future buyers be. If you rely on dual income 2 kids kinda buyers, then you better be confident that their income will rise quick quick to buy your unit, if their income stay stagnant, then you will have to wait long long.
This is why CCR always command a premium, because most owners will not lelong their properties, as mentioned by someone else earlier, at most they hold.
Most investors have 1-2 years of instalments as spare cash sitting in some Premier/Privilege/Gold account somewhere out there.
DKSG
Bro DKSG, don't get fooled by looks...
You see someone drive Ferrari means he rich???
You see someone with Patek means he rich????
You see him drive merc, BMW, lexus means he rich????
You see him stay in CCR means he rich????
You see someone go michilin chef restaurant (Singapore got not michilin restaurant hor) means he rich???
Brudder, open your eye BIG, BiG....:scared-4:
Some people in the forum stay big big house also over leverage leh....
It is the young who just enter into the rich club that howlian and always demand and demand... It is the young with new money that will show off....
If CCR always solid, why CCR drop over past few years...
Bro, CCR may go up in future hor... But CCR not always hot one hor...
Not all CCRs are the same hor....
Give example... U drive merc a160, means u arrived????
Don't angst with me hor... My England not so powderfool.... So sometime I very tid (hokkien) one hor(straight forward in England)
:cheers4: :cheers4: :cheers4:
I have already mention this in the other thread, if landed owners are all big tycoon, then we wont be seeing drastic price correct in past economic cycle.
In 1997, the price correction for detached houses, which are primary own by the so-call "big boss" suffer the worst hit.
http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/5638/12xx.jpg
And there is this household income statistic showing what is the average income of household living in landed property.
http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/403/el8k.jpghttp://img132.imageshack.us/img132/1964/50p1.jpg
If a person has 3 property, 1 hdb rentable @ 2.2 k, 1 condo rentable @ 5k, 1 condo rentable @ 5 k also. All fully paid for ease in calculating...
Scenario 1.
Person stays in hdb and rents out 2 condo...
He collects 10k worth of rental
Scenario 2.
Person stays in one of the condo and rents out 1 condo and 1 hdb.
He collects 7.2k worth of rental
That's why u see in hdb, branded cars... There are people there who rented out their privates. Hahahahahaha
Again, there is no rite or wrong... It depends what u want to in life.... A lifestyle or to save money????
:cheers4: :cheers4: :cheers4: :cheers4:
hahaha....very true....another scenario whereby both the old folks retired already....no need to work, so, household come might be zero right?? :scared-4:
a lot of landed owner, old uncle aunty very steady one, where got over leverage, this kind of info how to be in the chart...:o
If a person has 3 property, 1 hdb rentable @ 2.2 k, 1 condo rentable @ 5k, 1 condo rentable @ 5 k also. All fully paid for ease in calculating...
Scenario 1.
Person stays in hdb and rents out 2 condo...
He collects 10k worth of rental
Scenario 2.
Person stays in one of the condo and rents out 1 condo and 1 hdb.
He collects 7.2k worth of rental
That's why u see in hdb, branded cars... There are people there who rented out their privates. Hahahahahaha
Again, there is no rite or wrong... It depends what u want to in life.... A lifestyle or to save money????
:cheers4: :cheers4: :cheers4: :cheers4:
If a person has 3 property, 1 hdb rentable @ 2.2 k, 1 condo rentable @ 5k, 1 condo rentable @ 5 k also. All fully paid for ease in calculating...
Scenario 1.
Person stays in hdb and rents out 2 condo...
He collects 10k worth of rental
Scenario 2.
Person stays in one of the condo and rents out 1 condo and 1 hdb.
He collects 7.2k worth of rental
That's why u see in hdb, branded cars... There are people there who rented out their privates. Hahahahahaha
Again, there is no rite or wrong... It depends what u want to in life.... A lifestyle or to save money????
:cheers4: :cheers4: :cheers4: :cheers4:
Money is meaningless until you use it.
Money is just a number until you exercise the power it brings along.
DKSG
Money is meaningless until you use it.
Money is just a number until you exercise the power it brings along.
DKSG
Brudder, I agree with you...
I now enjoying life leh... I going around to see unesco sites.... All my overseas biz trip, I grab a game of golf or 2. I now shiok shiok driving cabriolet. My car no loan hor.... Why??? Must enjoy all the fruits of my labour wat...
I agree does not mean I need people to agree with me hor....
Last time, I save and invest and don't spend, trying to get my "money tree" to grow big and start producing "money" on the "tree" leh.... Now a few trees mature liao and providing me money regularly wat.... So now I enjoy lor....
U look at warren buffet, he so thrifty... But it is up to him lar... So long he happy can already lor.... Who are we to judge if a person happy or not, rite???
Someone got 30 million but just drive a BMW 523i happy can already wat... But if he feel happy in porche 911, he buy lor. If he feel car waste money and he drive Camry, also can rite??? Up to him rite??? So long he himself happy can already rite????
So yes, I agree w you... But that's just my view...
:cheers4: :cheers4: :cheers4: :cheers4:
My dear bros and sis, we must have diverse views hor... We must also be able to accept differing views hor... This is just a forum lar... Don't take it so seriously as though it is your job lar....
Give u an example... A person who thinks the property price will drop, will sell rite... He needs to find a buyer, this buyer needs to believe the price is reasonable rite??? If not there will be no transactions rite????
Of course there are other reasons to the purchase other then monetary rite....
So don't so "ren chen" - serious in the forum lar..... Relax, give your view, learn to pick the ones that has meaning to you and philosophy and you don't need everyone to agree with you rite???. This is not politics whereby you need voters wat....
Bottomline, I don't give a 2 shit whether I upset you or not... I just give my view... Remember, you decide if you are upset or happy, not me... I don't control your emotion hor, you yourself control your own emotion hor.
:cheers4: :cheers4: :cheers4:
proud owner
27-07-13, 16:16
Brudder, I agree with you...
I now enjoying life leh... I going around to see unesco sites.... All my overseas biz trip, I grab a game of golf or 2. I now shiok shiok driving cabriolet. My car no loan hor.... Why??? Must enjoy all the fruits of my labour wat...
I agree does not mean I need people to agree with me hor....
Last time, I save and invest and don't spend, trying to get my "money tree" to grow big and start producing "money" on the "tree" leh.... Now a few trees mature liao and providing me money regularly wat.... So now I enjoy lor....
U look at warren buffet, he so thrifty... But it is up to him lar... So long he happy can already lor.... Who are we to judge if a person happy or not, rite???
Someone got 30 million but just drive a BMW 523i happy can already wat... But if he feel happy in porche 911, he buy lor. If he feel car waste money and he drive Camry, also can rite??? Up to him rite??? So long he himself happy can already rite????
So yes, I agree w you... But that's just my view...
:cheers4: :cheers4: :cheers4: :cheers4:
bro do u let your son or daughter drive your cabriolet ?
I dunno why I cannot tahan those young chaps driving their father's car ...
I always tell my wife ...
they can have whatever they want AFTER they make their own money ...
but NOT on my expense .. my job is Done after they graduate ...
my wife said I very OLD SCHOOL ...
bro do u let your son or daughter drive your cabriolet ?
I dunno why I cannot tahan those young chaps driving their father's car ...
I always tell my wife ...
they can have whatever they want AFTER they make their own money ...
but NOT on my expense .. my job is Done after they graduate ...
my wife said I very OLD SCHOOL ...
I quite open minded leh... But my eldest very shy to drive my car. She new driver and young so the excess damn high.
So when she back for holidays, she drive our other car.
But I very open minded leh
Dear bros and sis... This comes to a conclusion.... Based on the above results, it is very clear that most do not see a drop within this 2 years.... Thanks for the participation.....
:D :D :D :D :D
Dear bros and sis... This comes to a conclusion.... Based on the above results, it is very clear that most do not see a drop within this 2 years.... Thanks for the participation.....
:D :D :D :D :D
excluding Landed Property. drop >10% over the next 2 years
RealStar Premier managing director William Wong confirmed that transaction volumes for bungalows and semi-detached houses slowed down drastically from April to June following the imposition of higher additional buyer's stamp duty in January.
With the rollout of the total debt servicing ratio framework late last month, sales have weakened further.
"If this continues for the next couple of quarters, we'll see more significant price drops as those who genuinely need to let go their properties will have to adjust their prices downwards to meet buyers' expectations," said Mr Wong.
http://www.businesstimes.com.sg/premium/top-stories/pockets-weakness-appear-firm-property-market-20130727
excluding Landed Property. drop >10% over the next 2 years
Do you mean landed will drop 20% in 2 years ?
Why not you give your expectation landed will drop 10% (or some meaningful number by Dec 2013), then we check in again by year end ?
Like that say drop 10% over 2 years is nearly saying it will drop 0.5% each month, which is meaningless.
DKSG
Brudder, it's just a view lar... Your mentor started it by saying landed will drop lar.... This lion cub say one... U dig his post u can find one.... So you better don't buy landed hor....
:cheers6: :cheers6:
Do you mean landed will drop 20% in 2 years ?
Why not you give your expectation landed will drop 10% (or some meaningful number by Dec 2013), then we check in again by year end ?
Like that say drop 10% over 2 years is nearly saying it will drop 0.5% each month, which is meaningless.
DKSG
Hahaha, ya bro, u are right, just our personal opinion la...if they say don't buy landed, means, they will be the first one to buy when it drop...:D , u Lao Jiao, u know la...
My own opinion also, if given a choice, I would rather buy landed then CCR. Why, because some CCR the quantum could be or even more than landed, and if investor is over leveraging like what this ringo33 has been shouting high and low, drop 10% for landed also means for CCR right?? :) besides, more ppl would be buying landed for own stay more then CCR I think...and if rental market weaken, who will be more affected?? Maybe we should also ask ringo33 to go did out whether there are more CCR condo rented out or landed...:)
I also try to be general as much as possible, and let the reader think themselves...:) :2cents:
Brudder, it's just a view lar... Your mentor started it by saying landed will drop lar.... This lion cub say one... U dig his post u can find one.... So you better don't buy landed hor....
:cheers6: :cheers6:
Bro, can imagine we need to ask the 20% why they think prices will drop/increase within this 2 years??? Majority does not mean correct hor... For all u know, the 20% may be the right one...
Hhahahaha
Hahaha, ya bro, u are right, just our personal opinion la...if they say don't buy landed, means, they will be the first one to buy when it drop...:D , u Lao Jiao, u know la...
My own opinion also, if given a choice, I would rather buy landed then CCR. Why, because some CCR the quantum could be or even more than landed, and if investor is over leveraging like what this ringo33 has been shouting high and low, drop 10% for landed also means for CCR right?? :) besides, more ppl would be buying landed for own stay more then CCR I think...and if rental market weaken, who will be more affected?? Maybe we should also ask ringo33 to go did out whether there are more CCR condo rented out or landed...:)
I also try to be general as much as possible, and let the reader think themselves...:) :2cents:
I vote for flat because any signs of bulls will be squashed by new cooling measures.
Any signs of bears will be lifted by relaxing of cooling measures.
:beats-me-man:
I vote for flat because any signs of bulls will be squashed by new cooling measures.
Any signs of bears will be lifted by relaxing of cooling measures.
:beats-me-man:
The fine art of kite flying has been achieved by our esteem authority. What is their objective... Discover the goal and u will solve this riddle, or should I say conundrum.... :cheers6:
Do you mean landed will drop 20% in 2 years ?
Why not you give your expectation landed will drop 10% (or some meaningful number by Dec 2013), then we check in again by year end ?
Like that say drop 10% over 2 years is nearly saying it will drop 0.5% each month, which is meaningless.
DKSG
29 people have voted for >10% price drop, while 23 have voted for 10% price increase. I think you should ask them to tell you when exactly it will fall instead of making meaningless vote like what you have said.
And btw, you have mentioned that Sky Habitat and Trizon are good buy, perhaps you could tell us how many % it will rise in 12 months and 24 months.
excluding Landed Property. drop >10% over the next 2 years
In your ppi chart which you have posted to death all over this forum, whenever any segment falls over a two yr period, the other segments follow suit. Since you swear by that chart, please explain to all here why you think only landed will fall over a two yr period and not the others?
Have you lost faith in your chart and now think that history will not repeat itself?
Brudder, save your breath on this guy. He reminds me of "B".
In your ppi chart which you have posted to death all over this forum, whenever any segment falls over a two yr period, the other segments follow suit. Since you swear by that chart, please explain to all here why you think only landed will fall over a two yr period and not the others?
Have you lost faith in your chart and now think that history will not repeat itself?
Brudder, save your breath on this guy. He reminds me of "B".
Thanks. No worries bro, weekend entertainment for me.
Brudder, save your breath on this guy. He reminds me of "B".
You made 200 folds capital gain from your landed property? Real or not?
You made 200 folds capital gain from your landed property? Real or not?
You have just proven DC33_2008's point.... diversion expert Mr B is back !
Brudder, save your breath on this guy. He reminds me of "B".
Brudder, it's just a view lar... Your mentor started it by saying landed will drop lar.... This lion cub say one... U dig his post u can find one.... So you better don't buy landed hor....
:cheers6: :cheers6:
We respect all views here.
But views are meaningless unless the view(er) can share the thoughts behind the view. Else this will be another Ah B who shouted Property Price Will Drop 50% by 2014, then 2015.
If the view is just random thoughts, we also respect, just that it means nothing. So onlookers should ignore these "views".
DKSG
Anyone can top this?
Not sure about others but my landed has gone up by more than 200 folds.
Just to give you an idea. 200 folds mean 200 x 100% = 20,000% capital gain.
Anyone can top this?
Just to give you an idea. 200 folds mean 200 x 100% = 20,000% capital gain.
CHC's kong hee tops this year in year out.
Anyone can top this?
Just to give you an idea. 200 folds mean 200 x 100% = 20,000% capital gain.
Mr wanna-B, time to let go of your low level taunts aka diversionary tactics and tackle the main topic of market sentiment:
In your ppi chart which you have posted to death all over this forum, whenever any segment falls over a two yr period, the other segments follow suit. Since you swear by that chart, please explain to all here why you think only landed will fall over a two yr period and not the others?
Have you lost faith in your chart and now think that history will not repeat itself?
Dear bros and sis.... Let's have diverse views.....
I actually have learnt quite a fair bit from everyone who contributed leh....
I have learnt what to be and what not to be. What to accept and what not to accept...
http://ivonechovski.wordpress.com/2013/05/30/7-rules-for-success-in-life/
1. Stop communicating with people who try to reduce your confidence!
There are some people who try to take our energy, because they need it. In fact, it’s cool to help a friend, but if this friend only disturbs us and tries to take more and more of us, there is time to say – stop, no more!
Another “dangerous” people might be very nice at first sight, but after time, they are able to change the masks and become more aggressive, manipulative and cynical.* Some of them change their inner personality, when they feel safe and begin with unfavorable comments or negative criticisms.
Another category people are those who choose to ignore change even when they are facing adverse circumstances. They avoid change out of fear that it will worsen their situation. Their pessimism, conservatism and lack of flexibility are inevitable given that they suffer from poor self-esteem and they could try to infect us with their “sickness”.*Go away from these people!
2. Stop living in the past!
It’s great to think about previous moments and some people like living in their conclusions about the past. If the set of their conclusions identifies that the past they experienced was good, the present features them to be the part of a “happy people”. They refuse to take anything too seriously because they almost know that nothing has anything to do with them. In fact, they live closer to the truth than those who live in the negative past. These with negative experience could run around insisting the sky is falling down and their live has been damage, sorrow and permanent problems. However, when we are able to reconnect with whom we are and what is our mission, we could identify the degree of “the bad past”.
3. Stop trying to control everything and everyone.
Often, we try to control things and/or others because we have some expectancies about things and people. It is great to have expectancies, but what if our plans and expectancies fail? These possibilities of fail could be obstacle and make us prone to more stress. Need to control is also a result of being attached a plan that we think is best for us and for others, but it is quite sure that we can only control yourself and our way of thinking, not others destiny. When we trust that we are ok and everything is ok no matter circumstances, we don’t need to feel fear because we already know that we are able to control only our actions.
4. Take reasonable risks! It is better to try to fail than never to have tried and always wonder.
Our life is full of opportunities, but it all depends of our point of view, whether we are open to take our chance. One of the major things that stop us moving forward on our goals and dreams*is the fear of failure. We are afraid of what people could say or think if we do not achieve what we are thinking about.
However, the most successful people on the planet have experienced far more failures than those who are not successful. In fact, the most successful people get knocked down more than once, but they don’t give up. They keep moving forward. *Some people say that failure is our best teacher. It won’t kill us, it will only make us stronger and*more experienced as well. Even if we fail, we know we gave it our all and do not have to regret of not having tried at all.
5. Learn to say “No”!
Some people have the difficulty to say NO. There are some situation in which to say No, could be a significant cause of stress.*Undesirable situations in our lives often are the result of failing to listen to our inner feelings and thoughts. This can lead us getting involved in something that we really don’t want.*So, if we don’t learn to say No, our stress levels could rise, because of our inner conflict. It is up for us to be strong and communicate how we really feel and what we are actually capable of.
6. Stop eating junk food. Go regularly training and getting enough sleep!
The sentence – strong mind in a strong body is not a myth. Our mind can make the difference between succeeding and failing at your goal. To eat healthy foods, train regularly and sleep enough, we challenging ourselves to choose one better life. Cleaning your house vigorously, dusting your shelves, cleaning your toilets, doing the dishes, mowing the lawn, pulling weeds, and cleaning the garage will definitely give us not only a good workout, but it makes us more responsible and keeps us in shape. Any physical activity that takes a bit of effort will help us get fit. However, our body needs to get comfortable activities that are in balance with our shape and potential at the moment.
When we become more active, we will need more food, healthy, energy food that will start the next phase of our day. We need the healthy fruits, vegetables, whole grains, and soups. We also need water. Water, is one of the best cure of cravings. When we are giving our body in a good shape, then we also need to let it recover and renew by getting a sufficient amount of sleep*in order to feel refreshed in the morning. So, we need to have regime for wake up and go to bed at the same on a daily basis.
7. Stop complaining and stop judging! Each has its own history, its own truth and way of thinking.
It’s not good idea to complain. Ancient people said that everything has to sides. It’s up to us to choose which one to use. There are many things that can only be accepted if we have common sence to accept. Just accept everything! When you change the way you think, you can change everything. Ignore your negative thoughts and just stop to complain and judge others. Yes, it could be difficult process, but if you want to change the world, you must be able to change yourself and your world, at first.
Dear bros and sis.... Let's have diverse views.....
I actually have learnt quite a fair bit from everyone who contributed leh....
I have learnt what to be and what not to be. What to accept and what not to accept...
http://ivonechovski.wordpress.com/2013/05/30/7-rules-for-success-in-life/
1. Stop communicating with people who try to reduce your confidence!
There are some people who try to take our energy, because they need it. In fact, it’s cool to help a friend, but if this friend only disturbs us and tries to take more and more of us, there is time to say – stop, no more!
Another “dangerous” people might be very nice at first sight, but after time, they are able to change the masks and become more aggressive, manipulative and cynical.* Some of them change their inner personality, when they feel safe and begin with unfavorable comments or negative criticisms.
Another category people are those who choose to ignore change even when they are facing adverse circumstances. They avoid change out of fear that it will worsen their situation. Their pessimism, conservatism and lack of flexibility are inevitable given that they suffer from poor self-esteem and they could try to infect us with their “sickness”.*Go away from these people!
2. Stop living in the past!
It’s great to think about previous moments and some people like living in their conclusions about the past. If the set of their conclusions identifies that the past they experienced was good, the present features them to be the part of a “happy people”. They refuse to take anything too seriously because they almost know that nothing has anything to do with them. In fact, they live closer to the truth than those who live in the negative past. These with negative experience could run around insisting the sky is falling down and their live has been damage, sorrow and permanent problems. However, when we are able to reconnect with whom we are and what is our mission, we could identify the degree of “the bad past”.
3. Stop trying to control everything and everyone.
Often, we try to control things and/or others because we have some expectancies about things and people. It is great to have expectancies, but what if our plans and expectancies fail? These possibilities of fail could be obstacle and make us prone to more stress. Need to control is also a result of being attached a plan that we think is best for us and for others, but it is quite sure that we can only control yourself and our way of thinking, not others destiny. When we trust that we are ok and everything is ok no matter circumstances, we don’t need to feel fear because we already know that we are able to control only our actions.
4. Take reasonable risks! It is better to try to fail than never to have tried and always wonder.
Our life is full of opportunities, but it all depends of our point of view, whether we are open to take our chance. One of the major things that stop us moving forward on our goals and dreams*is the fear of failure. We are afraid of what people could say or think if we do not achieve what we are thinking about.
However, the most successful people on the planet have experienced far more failures than those who are not successful. In fact, the most successful people get knocked down more than once, but they don’t give up. They keep moving forward. *Some people say that failure is our best teacher. It won’t kill us, it will only make us stronger and*more experienced as well. Even if we fail, we know we gave it our all and do not have to regret of not having tried at all.
5. Learn to say “No”!
Some people have the difficulty to say NO. There are some situation in which to say No, could be a significant cause of stress.*Undesirable situations in our lives often are the result of failing to listen to our inner feelings and thoughts. This can lead us getting involved in something that we really don’t want.*So, if we don’t learn to say No, our stress levels could rise, because of our inner conflict. It is up for us to be strong and communicate how we really feel and what we are actually capable of.
6. Stop eating junk food. Go regularly training and getting enough sleep!
The sentence – strong mind in a strong body is not a myth. Our mind can make the difference between succeeding and failing at your goal. To eat healthy foods, train regularly and sleep enough, we challenging ourselves to choose one better life. Cleaning your house vigorously, dusting your shelves, cleaning your toilets, doing the dishes, mowing the lawn, pulling weeds, and cleaning the garage will definitely give us not only a good workout, but it makes us more responsible and keeps us in shape. Any physical activity that takes a bit of effort will help us get fit. However, our body needs to get comfortable activities that are in balance with our shape and potential at the moment.
When we become more active, we will need more food, healthy, energy food that will start the next phase of our day. We need the healthy fruits, vegetables, whole grains, and soups. We also need water. Water, is one of the best cure of cravings. When we are giving our body in a good shape, then we also need to let it recover and renew by getting a sufficient amount of sleep*in order to feel refreshed in the morning. So, we need to have regime for wake up and go to bed at the same on a daily basis.
7. Stop complaining and stop judging! Each has its own history, its own truth and way of thinking.
It’s not good idea to complain. Ancient people said that everything has to sides. It’s up to us to choose which one to use. There are many things that can only be accepted if we have common sence to accept. Just accept everything! When you change the way you think, you can change everything. Ignore your negative thoughts and just stop to complain and judge others. Yes, it could be difficult process, but if you want to change the world, you must be able to change yourself and your world, at first.
I like your views! Thank you!
I like your views! Thank you!
Me too. my respect to Mr. chestnut.
My dear bros and sis. The reason for this survey is simple:
1. I want to hear and see what our astute investors in this forum voted for.
2. My believe is you guys/gals are the cream of the crop. Your views will give me an insight to my beliefs in the market.
3. The sampling size to me is quite big.
4. 20% or so believe prices will drop >10% and 80% or so do not believe.
5. My goal is to see if it will drop. Not so much if it will rise.
In conclusion, the survey has given me a conclusion and u all know what this conclusion is. But I will always remember this. Circumstances changes with each passing day as scenarios may change. We need to be flexible and adapt our mindset with each change.... Nothing is constant. The only thing constant is 'changes'.
Cheers and thanks for participating
I really respect bro Chestnut. What he said is really very true. I had read a good book which is "Dare to Fail" while I was doind sales and really boost me and learn a lot from the book.
Bro Chestnut, I respect you for your true and valuable sharing.
Thank you for your valuable sharing so far! I learn a lot from your post.
Dear bros and sis.... Let's have diverse views.....
I actually have learnt quite a fair bit from everyone who contributed leh....
I have learnt what to be and what not to be. What to accept and what not to accept...
http://ivonechovski.wordpress.com/2013/05/30/7-rules-for-success-in-life/
1. Stop communicating with people who try to reduce your confidence!
There are some people who try to take our energy, because they need it. In fact, it’s cool to help a friend, but if this friend only disturbs us and tries to take more and more of us, there is time to say – stop, no more!
Another “dangerous” people might be very nice at first sight, but after time, they are able to change the masks and become more aggressive, manipulative and cynical.* Some of them change their inner personality, when they feel safe and begin with unfavorable comments or negative criticisms.
Another category people are those who choose to ignore change even when they are facing adverse circumstances. They avoid change out of fear that it will worsen their situation. Their pessimism, conservatism and lack of flexibility are inevitable given that they suffer from poor self-esteem and they could try to infect us with their “sickness”.*Go away from these people!
2. Stop living in the past!
It’s great to think about previous moments and some people like living in their conclusions about the past. If the set of their conclusions identifies that the past they experienced was good, the present features them to be the part of a “happy people”. They refuse to take anything too seriously because they almost know that nothing has anything to do with them. In fact, they live closer to the truth than those who live in the negative past. These with negative experience could run around insisting the sky is falling down and their live has been damage, sorrow and permanent problems. However, when we are able to reconnect with whom we are and what is our mission, we could identify the degree of “the bad past”.
3. Stop trying to control everything and everyone.
Often, we try to control things and/or others because we have some expectancies about things and people. It is great to have expectancies, but what if our plans and expectancies fail? These possibilities of fail could be obstacle and make us prone to more stress. Need to control is also a result of being attached a plan that we think is best for us and for others, but it is quite sure that we can only control yourself and our way of thinking, not others destiny. When we trust that we are ok and everything is ok no matter circumstances, we don’t need to feel fear because we already know that we are able to control only our actions.
4. Take reasonable risks! It is better to try to fail than never to have tried and always wonder.
Our life is full of opportunities, but it all depends of our point of view, whether we are open to take our chance. One of the major things that stop us moving forward on our goals and dreams*is the fear of failure. We are afraid of what people could say or think if we do not achieve what we are thinking about.
However, the most successful people on the planet have experienced far more failures than those who are not successful. In fact, the most successful people get knocked down more than once, but they don’t give up. They keep moving forward. *Some people say that failure is our best teacher. It won’t kill us, it will only make us stronger and*more experienced as well. Even if we fail, we know we gave it our all and do not have to regret of not having tried at all.
5. Learn to say “No”!
Some people have the difficulty to say NO. There are some situation in which to say No, could be a significant cause of stress.*Undesirable situations in our lives often are the result of failing to listen to our inner feelings and thoughts. This can lead us getting involved in something that we really don’t want.*So, if we don’t learn to say No, our stress levels could rise, because of our inner conflict. It is up for us to be strong and communicate how we really feel and what we are actually capable of.
6. Stop eating junk food. Go regularly training and getting enough sleep!
The sentence – strong mind in a strong body is not a myth. Our mind can make the difference between succeeding and failing at your goal. To eat healthy foods, train regularly and sleep enough, we challenging ourselves to choose one better life. Cleaning your house vigorously, dusting your shelves, cleaning your toilets, doing the dishes, mowing the lawn, pulling weeds, and cleaning the garage will definitely give us not only a good workout, but it makes us more responsible and keeps us in shape. Any physical activity that takes a bit of effort will help us get fit. However, our body needs to get comfortable activities that are in balance with our shape and potential at the moment.
When we become more active, we will need more food, healthy, energy food that will start the next phase of our day. We need the healthy fruits, vegetables, whole grains, and soups. We also need water. Water, is one of the best cure of cravings. When we are giving our body in a good shape, then we also need to let it recover and renew by getting a sufficient amount of sleep*in order to feel refreshed in the morning. So, we need to have regime for wake up and go to bed at the same on a daily basis.
7. Stop complaining and stop judging! Each has its own history, its own truth and way of thinking.
It’s not good idea to complain. Ancient people said that everything has to sides. It’s up to us to choose which one to use. There are many things that can only be accepted if we have common sence to accept. Just accept everything! When you change the way you think, you can change everything. Ignore your negative thoughts and just stop to complain and judge others. Yes, it could be difficult process, but if you want to change the world, you must be able to change yourself and your world, at first.
So, the poll showed 23% think prices will drop more than 10%. No wonder....:doh: :doh:
Some idiot cashed out the a few properties... Now kan cheong spider...
All of you better rally behind him hor... If not pao imh....
I going hibernation again... If not I become the cause....
Chao...
:cheers1:
If it ever drops more than 10%, a lot of my friends (locals and expats) will be entering. And it is also everybody's guess that should that happen, many of the CMs will be removed, thus spurring even more activity.
Think harder again, 90.2% of the population are vested in a property, do you ever think it will crash more than >10% before the general elections? It might dip 5 to 10%, anything more than that, I expect our govt to have a tough time.
phantom_opera
08-08-13, 18:26
very simple ... money comes or money goes?? :D
AUD SGD = 1.14 (was 1.30 most of the time when mining was booming)
SGD MYR = 2.579 (was 2.4 5y ago)
SGD IDR = 8,152 (was 6,600 5y ago)
SGD INR = 48.3 (was 30 5y ago)
USD SGD = 1.26 (was 1.7 5y ago)
EUR SGD = 1.68 (was 2.1 5y ago)
GBP SGD = 2 (was 3 b4 Lehman)
now the most important CHF SGD ... stable for the last 10y
we kpkb about inflation but once we step out of our countries .. wow our purchasing power has gone up !!!
https://www.google.com/finance?chdnp=1&chdd=1&chds=1&chdv=1&chvs=Linear&chdeh=0&chfdeh=0&chdet=1375957799128&chddm=3119679&q=CURRENCY:CHFSGD&ntsp=0&ei=JHMDUvDvFMPJkgWh2QE
GDP forecast up to 3.5%, price how to drop!!:tsk-tsk:
phantom_opera
08-08-13, 22:01
I wonder what PM means by "enlarged safety net"
something more to do with your cpf...:)
I wonder what PM means by "enlarged safety net"
phantom_opera
08-08-13, 22:18
something more to do with your cpf...:)
well ... min sum of SA/MA already almost 200k now per CPF member ... OMG ... not another min sum hike !! :scared-1:
our sgd will appreciate more in future in my opinion....then our import will become cheap, and whatever export thru our manufacturing hub in iskandar will become cheap! this will also attract more investors as we move up the value chain. :2cents:
those who buy foreign property will really have to be careful. if not the your foreign property appreciation might be neutralise by our currency appreciation :scared-3: :o
very simple ... money comes or money goes?? :D
AUD SGD = 1.14 (was 1.30 most of the time when mining was booming)
SGD MYR = 2.579 (was 2.4 5y ago)
SGD IDR = 8,152 (was 6,600 5y ago)
SGD INR = 48.3 (was 30 5y ago)
USD SGD = 1.26 (was 1.7 5y ago)
EUR SGD = 1.68 (was 2.1 5y ago)
GBP SGD = 2 (was 3 b4 Lehman)
now the most important CHF SGD ... stable for the last 10y
we kpkb about inflation but once we step out of our countries .. wow our purchasing power has gone up !!!
https://www.google.com/finance?chdnp=1&chdd=1&chds=1&chdv=1&chvs=Linear&chdeh=0&chfdeh=0&chdet=1375957799128&chddm=3119679&q=CURRENCY:CHFSGD&ntsp=0&ei=JHMDUvDvFMPJkgWh2QE
isn't that a brilliant idea? to tell u that the money is still yours and then they use it to extend more help and coverage to elderly and then use the return from investment to cover back. 神不知鬼不觉。。。:D
well ... min sum of SA/MA already almost 200k now per CPF member ... OMG ... not another min sum hike !! :scared-1:
Come on folks. Its 2 years....... Not 2 months. How realistic that a property price is staying flat in the next 2 years? Or even going down in 2 years?
In 2 months it might go down.... But in 2 years I guarantee it will go up.
have waited patiently for 2+ years to see the results of the guarantee.
Now please don't overly use the word guarantee.
of course if price has gone up, i would have keep quiet and not re-opened this thread :) it's only human what.
have waited patiently for 2+ years to see the results of the guarantee.
Now please don't overly use the word guarantee.
of course if price has gone up, i would have keep quiet and not re-opened this thread :) it's only human what.
I am a proponent of OCR/RCR properties near to MRT. It hasn't go down much at all.
I am also proponent to low interest rate, it has remained so.
I am a proponent to SG properties, so far foreigners are not dissapointed due to strong SGD. Your point?
Let's do the tally for the past 3 years:
- morgage loan reduced by 100k paid by tenant
- price increase on paper 30% (now 1.300 per sqft) but I still feel its more like 25%
- my property still a freehold
- loan payment 3 years shorter now
- SGD increased 30% against IDR and AUD
At this low return environment, negative interest rate overseas and my coming middle age..... I can say I have no regret. The question is what about the next 3 years. Can I give the same guarantee?
Sorry if my English is bad, but I dont think "It hasn't go down much at all" is the same as ".... But in 2 years I guarantee it will go up."
I mean look at the statement "How realistic that a property price is staying flat in the next 2 years? Or even going down in 2 years?". Turns out to be 100% realistic since it is reality.
By the way, when the guarantee was given, there was no mention of location, interest rates to modify the guarantee in any way :)
Guarantee is a rather strong word to use. I only wish that banks are that easy to accept a person's word. The person just need to say "I guarantee my business will succeed, so please loan me a million dollars", or "I guarantee Mr A will pay back the loan, so please loan him a million dollars", and no need to put up collateral, no need for the banks to place a lien.
I think I have made my investing mantra quite clear....its FH, outside CCR, near MRT. Have u not make money on this type properties? You can't be a bear to make money. You have to ride the cycle to make money. The earlier in your age and the longer the loan tenure the better. The problem with some Singaporeans they don't realised how rich they are. Even with basic HDB ownership and CPF...they are already millionaires.
I would try to be a statesman and say it is sad to see an adult squirming and wriggling trying to get out the "guarantee". But sorry I can't, it actually is quite enjoyable to see an adult squirming and wriggling like a child caught in an act :)
It is clear cut, "in 2 years I guarantee it will go up". No ifs, no buts.
Indomie, it is okay to say "I was wrong about the guarantee and also wrong about prices going up in 2 years". End of the matter.
Sorry if my English is bad, but I dont think "It hasn't go down much at all" is the same as ".... But in 2 years I guarantee it will go up."
I mean look at the statement "How realistic that a property price is staying flat in the next 2 years? Or even going down in 2 years?". Turns out to be 100% realistic since it is reality.
By the way, when the guarantee was given, there was no mention of location, interest rates to modify the guarantee in any way :)
Guarantee is a rather strong word to use. I only wish that banks are that easy to accept a person's word. The person just need to say "I guarantee my business will succeed, so please loan me a million dollars", or "I guarantee Mr A will pay back the loan, so please loan him a million dollars", and no need to put up collateral, no need for the banks to place a lien.
When we read something online, we must remember not to be to rash in concluding. Many things are still in a state of flux and lots of possibilities as well.
The reality is you have seen the index go down but also that the specific type of properties one wants to buy, no one wants to sell at that price. The higher priced properties (except for central HDBs), Govt disqualifies buyers and distorts market (for the benefit of the mass). This sidelines many developers and opportunities.
We can continue to be patient and let the full story run its course. After all, for those who have waited five years, what's one or two more?
How can crafting property cooling measures that crash CCR luxury property prices while allowing the OCR property prices to stay near historical high be "for the benefit of the mass"??? :grief:
More like the property cooling measures allow the rich to buy CCR luxury properties CHEAP CHEAP while letting the mass continue to pay sky-high OCR private property prices is more correct? :sour:
When we read something online, we must remember not to be to rash in concluding. Many things are still in a state of flux and lots of possibilities as well.
The reality is you have seen the index go down but also that the specific type of properties one wants to buy, no one wants to sell at that price. The higher priced properties (except for central HDBs), Govt disqualifies buyers and distorts market (for the benefit of the mass). This sidelines many developers and opportunities.
We can continue to be patient and let the full story run its course. After all, for those who have waited five years, what's one or two more?
I would try to be a statesman and say it is sad to see an adult squirming and wriggling trying to get out the "guarantee". But sorry I can't, it actually is quite enjoyable to see an adult squirming and wriggling like a child caught in an act :)
It is clear cut, "in 2 years I guarantee it will go up". No ifs, no buts.
Indomie, it is okay to say "I was wrong about the guarantee and also wrong about prices going up in 2 years". End of the matter.
You and I operate in 2 different worlds.
In my world:
- there is no guarantee HDB housing
- there is no guarantee CPF interest
- there is no guarantee strong exchange rate
What I saw 3 years ago is the reflection of my cultural bias. I assumed we have the same investment knowledge on which property to invest and the same tolerant to risks.
I still think today as 3 years ago, investing property was a good choice. An acid test to this would be, I would not let anybody to take over my property today at the price of 3 years ago, today.
Even if the property price remain the same, but other asset class are in decline. I still consider the value has increased.
I believe in your yardstick. The issue is that the actual price has run away but SG cannot allow further debt loading so continue to hold onto financing limits and taxes.
At truly fair buyer and seller transaction, the transaction volume should be much higher.
You and I operate in 2 different worlds.
In my world:
- there is no guarantee HDB housing
- there is no guarantee CPF interest
- there is no guarantee strong exchange rate
What I saw 3 years ago is the reflection of my cultural bias. I assumed we have the same investment knowledge on which property to invest and the same tolerant to risks.
I still think today as 3 years ago, investing property was a good choice. An acid test to this would be, I would not let anybody to take over my property today at the price of 3 years ago, today.
Even if the property price remain the same, but other asset class are in decline. I still consider the value has increased.
I believe in your yardstick. The issue is that the actual price has run away but SG cannot allow further debt loading so continue to hold onto financing limits and taxes.
At truly fair buyer and seller transaction, the transaction volume should be much higher.
Singaporean is so used to expecting short term, low risk and high return investment. What u see as a "left over" investment for many foreigners is still very attractive. For me personally, I still see people contracting disease and dying on the crime waves. So you and I may have different expectation in life and on investments.
How many of us will take as much property loan when we could. We didn't care because we still young, we want to drive BMW, we think loan will always be available and we think its too risky. But we often forget that its the long term nature of the property investment that force you to make "long term planning". In the end its the long term financial planning that can safe us from ourself.
What I mean as leftover?
Nah I sometimes go for leftover actually. The ones I can't buy are the solid ones I can't afford.
Singaporean is so used to expecting short term, low risk and high return investment. What u see as a "left over" investment for many foreigners is still very attractive. For me personally, I still see people contracting disease and dying on the crime waves. So you and I may have different expectation in life and on investments.
How many of us will take as much property loan when we could. We didn't care because we still young, we want to drive BMW, we think loan will always be available and we think its too risky. But we often forget that its the long term nature of the property investment that force you to make "long term planning". In the end its the long term financial planning that can safe us from ourself.
What I mean as leftover?
Nah I sometimes go for leftover actually. The ones I can't buy are the solid ones I can't afford.
Anyone experience that the unit you wanted but did not buy 2 years ago and that unit price actually dropped now?
How many of us will take as much property loan when we could. We didn't care because we still young, we want to drive BMW, we think loan will always be available and we think its too risky. But we often forget that its the long term nature of the property investment that force you to make "long term planning". In the end its the long term financial planning that can safe us from ourself.
I agree with the statement. Some of my friends that earn more than me no longer possible to buy the same property that I bought because They always thinking that they will have better deal later. They do not realize that their age is keep increasing.
There are things that I see in SG that constitute almost "guarantee" in comparison to my own country. The fact that most singaporeans have a high net worth in term of savings and assets. Meant that most people can afford to invest in property, its just a matter of willingness.
In other countries...most folks have the willingness, but they don't have the money to back it up. So its safe to say if you invest in property that singaporeans desire at the price they can afford, its a "guarantee apprecation". Maybe I have higher tolerant toward risk, so I did not lose sleep thinking about my investments.
Instead we should be overjoyed that we have purchased good property at a good price with long bank tenure. For me I made the right choice buying the property a couple of years ago. But for some younger folks here...now is the right time to purchase for their age. They need to capture their youth and preserve it for eternety by buying property asset while they are young.
Now....can I give they a "guarantee" they will see appreciation in the next 2 years? The answer is yes. As long they buy something that most people want at the price that most people can afford. Don't buy something that you can afford, but most people can't. Who can u sell it to?
After this CNY it will be 裁员滚滚 you all still tok these kind rubbish. Really can't believe how blinded by one factor some of you are. I do own properties and I do not wish to see it drop too much but it's good to see some healthy correction so I can lup more! My view is in the next 2yrs, properties will drop around 10%. In 5yrs, it should be flat, before we see another plunge starting from 2022. Please don't say Sporeans are rich, to me it's rubbish. If rich ppl don't know how to cut loss how to be rich? If rich ppl are really so kum gong then stock market won't suddenly plunge liao.
Don't time the market. In the long run prices will surely go up --- We heard of this many times and some ppl just want to time the market and don't wanna wait till their hair turns white.
I never heard of someone I around my circle lose money in properties in fact all gaining either all gaining more or less, but I only heard or read that people i don't know lose in properties. How come?
Everyone has got his or her own internal conflicts with regards to property prices.
The true price is the free market price. But it benefits the rich too much and jeopardises those who can only loan to afford.
The after tax price forces the rich to pay more than the less rich or first time buyer which is a distorted price. But it serves its purposes in one way or another.
The trickiest scenarios to navigate involve the mismatch of expectations.
Buyers say PPI is at 2011 levels and only want to pay at that level. Sellers do not trust cash that much and will not release at those levels. In fact, many owners do not even look to sell, especially since they have had to clear so many regulations to buy.
Some of those who can afford PC (more than 14K monthly) prefer to own only HDB. People with 8K income want Mt Sinai landed. Many people who qualify for ECs want PC or HDB. Then there is this issue of location where more mismatch happens.
The mismatch reduces the transactions to very low levels. And I think there is a limit to how much and how long the distortion continues.
But regardless of outcome, I trust in the right judgement of those calling the shots.
Amber Woods
17-02-16, 08:55
There are few types of rich people whose investment strategy vastly different from each other. The conservative rich usually buy property and hold on to them because they need not have to sell to buy more. They usually buy at the right time and hold to them for their next generation.
The more adventurous rich will buy and sell at appropriate times to increase or maintain their wealth.
The above two groups are usually very wealthy and probably not reflective of the the investing population.
It is the not so rich but want to be rich that are market movers. These group is quite large and they invest in property with high leverage. When market is bad, they usually could not sleep well.
Then there is this average folks believing in the goodness of property investment. They save and save to invest and often buy at peak and hold on to them and still feel good about their investment and their ability to buy as compare to their peers who never invest in property. Should they lose their jobs, they may have to force to sell their property. This group is most vulnerable. This is the mass market group which is quite big. They are not market movers but they are the one who sustain the market and they are also the one who could break down the market when the environment turns negative like now.
There are few types of rich people whose investment strategy vastly different from each other. The conservative rich usually buy property and hold on to them because they need not have to sell to buy more. They usually buy at the right time and hold to them for their next generation.
The more adventurous rich will buy and sell at appropriate times to increase or maintain their wealth.
The above two groups are usually very wealthy and probably not reflective of the the investing population.
It is the not so rich but want to be rich that are market movers. These group is quite large and they invest in property with high leverage. When market is bad, they usually could not sleep well.
Then there is this average folks believing in the goodness of property investment. They save and save to invest and often buy at peak and hold on to them and still feel good about their investment and their ability to buy as compare to their peers who never invest in property. Should they lose their jobs, they may have to force to sell their property. This group is most vulnerable. This is the mass market group which is quite big. They are not market movers but they are the one who sustain the market and they are also the one who could break down the market when the environment turns negative like now.
The "not so rich" singaporeans to me is quite rich. The common HDB dweller worth at least 1 million dollar in property+CPF+savings. The PC folks would easily double that.
Last time I also discussed with someone in this forum. The very rich I know usually are not too interested in locking funds in property, which can be highly illiquid. They would rather deploy funds more fruitfully in their businesses.
I feel I belong to the not so rich group you mentioned. But actually I sleep very well with more properties under my belt currently. Previously (maybe 5-10 years ago), the stocks volatility created havoc in my sleep patterns. Overnight gains and losses run into tens of thousands. Emotional ups and downs every morning. Now rental settled, loans set at low interests, just watch the stock ups and downs with popcorn. Just very bored and come to forums.
If one day forced sale is also not too bad with the equity built and rental collected.
I would agree the environment really negative if the transactions increase and the prices fall. But even then, this only hurts the true speculators, and they are really rare now with all the regulations set in place.
There are few types of rich people whose investment strategy vastly different from each other. The conservative rich usually buy property and hold on to them because they need not have to sell to buy more. They usually buy at the right time and hold to them for their next generation.
The more adventurous rich will buy and sell at appropriate times to increase or maintain their wealth.
The above two groups are usually very wealthy and probably not reflective of the the investing population.
It is the not so rich but want to be rich that are market movers. These group is quite large and they invest in property with high leverage. When market is bad, they usually could not sleep well.
Then there is this average folks believing in the goodness of property investment. They save and save to invest and often buy at peak and hold on to them and still feel good about their investment and their ability to buy as compare to their peers who never invest in property. Should they lose their jobs, they may have to force to sell their property. This group is most vulnerable. This is the mass market group which is quite big. They are not market movers but they are the one who sustain the market and they are also the one who could break down the market when the environment turns negative like now.
Yes, me too.. bored and come to forum.
almost max out TDSR for myself and wifey...
maybe one more shot for a 1 bedder if/when absd is removed.....
Last time I also discussed with someone in this forum. The very rich I know usually are not too interested in locking funds in property, which can be highly illiquid. They would rather deploy funds more fruitfully in their businesses.
I feel I belong to the not so rich group you mentioned. But actually I sleep very well with more properties under my belt currently. Previously (maybe 5-10 years ago), the stocks volatility created havoc in my sleep patterns. Overnight gains and losses run into tens of thousands. Emotional ups and downs every morning. Now rental settled, loans set at low interests, just watch the stock ups and downs with popcorn. Just very bored and come to forums.
If one day forced sale is also not too bad with the equity built and rental collected.
I would agree the environment really negative if the transactions increase and the prices fall. But even then, this only hurts the true speculators, and they are really rare now with all the regulations set in place.
for me i am concern on the rental then the property price…i also belong to the not so rich group
Amber Woods
17-02-16, 11:06
Last time I also discussed with someone in this forum. The very rich I know usually are not too interested in locking funds in property, which can be highly illiquid. They would rather deploy funds more fruitfully in their businesses.
I feel I belong to the not so rich group you mentioned. But actually I sleep very well with more properties under my belt currently. Previously (maybe 5-10 years ago), the stocks volatility created havoc in my sleep patterns. Overnight gains and losses run into tens of thousands. Emotional ups and downs every morning. Now rental settled, loans set at low interests, just watch the stock ups and downs with popcorn. Just very bored and come to forums.
If one day forced sale is also not too bad with the equity built and rental collected.
I would agree the environment really negative if the transactions increase and the prices fall. But even then, this only hurts the true speculators, and they are really rare now with all the regulations set in place.
This not so rich group is huge and some will lose sleep when market turns negative. They may not be speculators but they put all their eggs in a single basket and hope for the best. The savvy investors in this group invest because they see values in the properties they invested while the non savvy investors in this group invest and hope for the best outcome. They lose sleep because they fear they will be back to where they started years ago.
Yah they said rental bad. But one of my units put on the market for 1 month already rented out at market price.
But have to continue to act cham to deter speculators from joining.
for me i am concern on the rental then the property price…i also belong to the not so rich group
Hope you are not referring to yourself.
Ok which one is losing sleep as the "market gets distorted"? Show me one who lose sleep and I point out a speculator.
I for one have never been active online after 12am unless I drink kopi at night. Sleep like a pig actually.
This not so rich group is huge and some will lose sleep when market turns negative. They may not be speculators but they put all their eggs in a single basket and hope for the best. The savvy investors in this group invest because they see values in the properties they invested while the non savvy investors in this group invest and hope for the best outcome. They lose sleep because they fear they will be back to where they started years ago.
Amber Woods
17-02-16, 11:23
Hope you are not referring to yourself.
Ok which one is losing sleep as the "market gets distorted"? Show me one who lose sleep and I point out a speculator.
I for one have never been active online after 12am unless I drink kopi at night. Sleep like a pig actually.
Didn't you see so many bank sales? Many of them bought during the high of 2007, and they are not likely to be speculators since they manage to hold on to their properties for so many years.
Oh! You obviously belong to the more savvy type in this group. Please do not take thing personal. I apologise if my message sounded otherwise.
No need to apologise lah, we are just chatting. I am not offended. Nothing personal also.
The bank sales volumes are very thin. If it comes to bank sales, it seems to me the owner had not planned the finances carefully? It is to be noted that in the past (2007), 90% or more leveraging is possible.
And its true we may be seeing losses of 20%, 30%. But what about the cost of use or the rental gains during the low interest period? Currency gains? And what about the transactions that continue to be profitable? Surely we cannot just look at one side of losses but fail to consider the probability of gains?
So there is much more than meets the eye for properties.
Didn't you see so many bank sales? Many of them bought during the high of 2007, and they are not likely to be speculators since they manage to hold on to their properties for so many years.
Oh! You obviously belong to the more savvy type in this group. Please do not take thing personal. I apologise if my message sounded otherwise.
Amber Woods
17-02-16, 12:21
No need to apologise lah, we are just chatting. I am not offended. Nothing personal also.
The bank sales volumes are very thin. If it comes to bank sales, it seems to me the owner had not planned the finances carefully? It is to be noted that in the past (2007), 90% or more leveraging is possible.
And its true we may be seeing losses of 20%, 30%. But what about the cost of use or the rental gains during the low interest period? Currency gains? And what about the transactions that continue to be profitable? Surely we cannot just look at one side of losses but fail to consider the probability of gains?
So there is much more than meets the eye for properties.
I apologised because of the tone of your responses. Nice that we had clarified.
I apologised because of the tone of your responses. Nice that we had clarified.
I see. I apologise for how I might be read too.
The door continues to be wide open for first time buyers. Hope everyone have a good year ahead in this tough looking year!
Amber Woods
17-02-16, 13:44
The number of bank's sales are increasing with falling rental, slowing economy and rising interest rates. Speculators might be out of the market but there are a lot more buyers deciding to cut losses due to the lost of jobs, rental not able to cover mortgage payment, unable to rent out (due to poor locality or supply exceeding demand in some areas) and fear of continued falling prices.
The average folks react differently from the more savvy investors. They are usually the last to enter the market and may choose to exit the market (cut losses) when fear and stress get into them.
If the economy continues to deteriorate and more jobs are lost, the perfect storm may be just around the corner even without a major crisis.
The government wants a soft landing for property prices to moderate gradually so that both buyer and seller have more time to transact and so avoiding a price crash.
We all know prices have in fact "crashed" in CCR. When things finally reach an equivalent, price moderation will happen faster in RCR and OCR in a matter of time.
The govt still holds many keys to unlock the cooling measures... slowly and steadily... to achieve a soft landing.
If the absd is removed from foreign buyers, that will be the test if market rebound or continue to fall.
The number of bank's sales are increasing with falling rental, slowing economy and rising interest rates. Speculators might be out of the market but there are a lot more buyers deciding to cut losses due to the lost of jobs, rental not able to cover mortgage payment, unable to rent out (due to poor locality or supply exceeding demand in some areas) and fear of continued falling prices.
The average folks react differently from the more savvy investors. They are usually the last to enter the market and may choose to exit the market (cut losses) when fear and stress get into them.
If the economy continues to deteriorate and more jobs are lost, the perfect storm may be just around the corner even without a major crisis.
The government wants a soft landing for property prices to moderate gradually so that both buyer and seller have more time to transact and so avoiding a price crash.
We all know prices have in fact "crashed" in CCR. When things finally reach an equivalent, price moderation will happen faster in RCR and OCR in a matter of time.
Amber Woods
17-02-16, 14:29
The govt still holds many keys to unlock the cooling measures... slowly and steadily... to achieve a soft landing.
If the absd is removed from foreign buyers, that will be the test if market rebound or continue to fall.
The government will remove ABSD for local buyer first and than foreign buyer or both at the same time. The government will not remove ABSD for foreign buyer only for obvious reasons even though many high end property developers stucked with many unsold high end units are lobbying for the government to remove ABSD for foreigner.
Job insecure - better avoid.
Income cannot support - better avoid
Falling rental - better avoid
Rising interest - better avoid.
Population stop growing - better avoid
What if job secure, income grows, interest fixed at low rates, rental secured and population continues to grow? Should one go for it?
The number of bank's sales are increasing with falling rental, slowing economy and rising interest rates. Speculators might be out of the market but there are a lot more buyers deciding to cut losses due to the lost of jobs, rental not able to cover mortgage payment, unable to rent out (due to poor locality or supply exceeding demand in some areas) and fear of continued falling prices.
The average folks react differently from the more savvy investors. They are usually the last to enter the market and may choose to exit the market (cut losses) when fear and stress get into them.
If the economy continues to deteriorate and more jobs are lost, the perfect storm may be just around the corner even without a major crisis.
The government wants a soft landing for property prices to moderate gradually so that both buyer and seller have more time to transact and so avoiding a price crash.
We all know prices have in fact "crashed" in CCR. When things finally reach an equivalent, price moderation will happen faster in RCR and OCR in a matter of time.
Amber Woods
17-02-16, 15:04
What if job secure, income grows, interest fixed at low rates, rental secured and population continues to grow? Should one go for it?
That is your call.
Property investment is for longer term. If you buy during good time, you must be prepared and able to ride out when market turns bad. If you buy during bad time, be prepared for things to get worst before it gets better. If you can manage both scenarios, you do not belong to the group who could not sleep well with their investments.
of course govt will not jump to remove absd for foreigners and ask SC or PR to continue to pay absd... that's why i said slow and steady....
what i meant was the day when absd for foreigners is reduced significantly or removed, then that will be the test.
The government will remove ABSD for local buyer first and than foreign buyer or both at the same time. The government will not remove ABSD for foreign buyer only for obvious reasons even though many high end property developers stucked with many unsold high end units are lobbying for the government to remove ABSD for foreigner.
Amber Woods
17-02-16, 15:25
of course govt will not jump to remove absd for foreigners and ask SC or PR to continue to pay absd... that's why i said slow and steady....
what i meant was the day when absd for foreigners is reduced significantly or removed, then that will be the test.
The removal of ABSD can have different outcomes depending on the state of economy both domestically and globally.
I would rather look at things from a macro perspective when come to property investment. All these cooling measures or government's interventions are meant to address market inefficiencies and to achieve the desired social and economic objectives.
What social and economic objectives are you talking about the property cooling measures that crash CCR private property prices and keep OCR private property prices at historical highs?
Is the social and economic objectives to crash CCR private property prices so that the rich can buy CHEAP CHEAP and keep OCR private property prices at historical highs so that the >80% HDB owners mostly cannot afford to upgrade to OCR private properties??? :hopelessness:
And that Thomastan said that the government's focus is on the 80% HDB? He means the government's focus is to make the 80% HDB owners pay historical high prices if they want to upgrade to OCR private property?
Do't make sense to me.... Sounds more like property cooling measures' policy failure and don't know what to do and thus no action so far...........
The removal of ABSD can have different outcomes depending on the state of economy both domestically and globally.
I would rather look at things from a macro perspective when come to property investment. All these cooling measures or government's interventions are meant to address market inefficiencies and to achieve the desired social and economic objectives.
All these cooling measures or government's interventions are meant to address market inefficiencies and to achieve the desired social and economic objectives.
Correction: "All these cooling measures or government's interventions are meant to (create) market inefficiencies (so as to) to achieve the desired social and economic objectives."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_market
"Share and foreign exchange markets are commonly said to be the most similar to the perfect market. The real estate market is an example of a very imperfect market."
Amber Woods
17-02-16, 15:51
What social and economic objectives are you talking about the property cooling measures that crash CCR private property prices and keep OCR private property prices at historical highs?
Is the social and economic objectives to crash CCR private property prices so that the rich can buy CHEAP CHEAP and keep OCR private property prices at historical highs so that the >80% HDB owners mostly cannot afford to upgrade to OCR private properties??? :hopelessness:
And that Thomastan said that the government's focus is on the 80% HDB? He means the government's focus is to make the 80% HDB owners pay historical high prices if they want to upgrade to OCR private property?
Do't make sense to me.... Sounds more like property cooling measures' policy failure and don't know what to do and thus no action so far...........
Indeed, the cooling measures have not quite achieved the desired social and economic objectives. Lets' see if the soft landing which the government spoke so loud about can be realised over the next two years.
Amber Woods
17-02-16, 15:54
Correction: "All these cooling measures or government's interventions are meant to (create) market inefficiencies (so as to) to achieve the desired social and economic objectives."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_market
"Share and foreign exchange markets are commonly said to be the most similar to the perfect market. The real estate market is an example of a very imperfect market."
Property market is most inefficient (or imperfect market in economic term), therefore government's intervention is necessary.
Do you know what are the "desired social and economic objectives"?
Indeed, the cooling measures has not quite achieved the desired social and economic objectives. Lets' see if the soft landing which the government spoke so loud about can be realised over the next two years.
Amber Woods
17-02-16, 15:59
Do you know what are the "desired social and economic objectives"?
Please read MAS and MND press releases over the last few years.
Property market is most inefficient (or imperfect market in economic term), therefore government's intervention is necessary.
Please read point 3 in the link I sent. Your uunderstanding of perfect market and efficiency is warped.
We can have different interpretation of future prices but cannot anyhow twist economic theory.
Amber Woods
17-02-16, 16:59
Please read point 3 in the link I sent. Your uunderstanding of perfect market and efficiency is warped.
We can have different interpretation of future prices but cannot anyhow twist economic theory.
I believe Leeds will be the best person to give you a crash course on basic economic theory. Having read economic in school, a Perfect Market is an efficient market such as the stock market. An imperfect market is an extremely inefficient market such as the real estate market. Price of particular stock usually reflects the market value of that stock because the market is more efficient. However, given the inefficiency of the property market, price is inelastic hence prices do not fall or rise as quickly or efficiently as in the stock market.
It is embrasssing to twist economic theory in a public forum.
i still can't understand why the govt needs to interfere with the property market, yes they can make all kinds of measures to public housing, but why on private and control foreign buyers? they afraid burst and must babysit the local buyers?
Leeds will certainly be able to tell you you have misused the terms.
I believe Leeds will be the best person to give you a crash course on basic economic theory. Having read economic in school, a Perfect Market is an efficient market such as the stock market. An imperfect market is an extremely inefficient market such as the real estate market. Price of particular stock usually reflects the market value of that stock because the market is more efficient. However, given the inefficiency of the property market, price is inelastic hence prices do not fall or rise as quickly or efficiently as in the stock market.
It is embrasssing to twist economic theory in a public forum.
Amber Woods
17-02-16, 17:34
i still can't understand why the govt needs to interfere with the property market, yes they can make all kinds of measures to public housing, but why on private and control foreign buyers? they afraid burst and must babysit the local buyers?
Sister Leeds had answered these questions in this forum many times. Public and private housing are one single market because prices of public flat affect the mass market and so on. If government allows rich foreigners to buy properties without restriction, prices will rise to the extend that the locals will not be able to upgrade to private property. Hence, government needs to intervent the market to ensure fairer redistribution of wealth to its people.
Amber Woods
17-02-16, 17:41
Leeds will certainly be able to tell you you have misused the terms.
Like I said, it is too embrasssing to get the basic economic theory and the term wrong in a public forum. I think you are confused with economic theory in supply and demand, price economic theory and the perfect market.
Yes I vaguely remember Leeds corrected my understanding of inflation and deflation before and I openly admitted my error.
But here it is clear that your understanding of the perfect market is wrong. There is no confusion.
I mean your desired social and economic objectives.
Please read MAS and MND press releases over the last few years.
Amber Woods
17-02-16, 20:23
I mean your desired social and economic objectives.
I was referring to the government's desired social and economic objectives, not mine.
I never heard of someone I around my circle lose money in properties in fact all gaining either all gaining more or less, but I only heard or read that people i don't know lose in properties. How come?
I never heard of anyone whom I know personally gain from stock market but I only heard or read that people I don't know gain from stock market. How come ? Don't tell property investment is the only investment can gain. Sighs
ok, so which desired social and economics objectives did the government not meet with the cooling measures? just name one or two is fine.
i'm happy to hear from u...
I was referring to the government's desired social and economic objectives, not mine.
Amber Woods
17-02-16, 20:42
Yes I vaguely remember Leeds corrected my understanding of inflation and deflation before and I openly admitted my error.
But here it is clear that your understanding of the perfect market is wrong. There is no confusion.
You were confused because you saw government's interventions as a form of market interference to the free market which should be efficient. Perfect market does not exist but the stock market is as close to a perfect market because buyers and sellers operate in a market with close to perfect information. If goverment intervenes in the stock market, the government appears to distort or create inefficiencies into the market as in your own words. However, the real estate market is opposite to that of the stock market because it is operating in a near imperfect market because of imperfect information in the market. Hence, government's interventions are viewed as attempting to make the market toward greater market efficiency.
I will leave this explanation as it is. It is fine if you disagree. Hope you could learn from someone more learned.
Amber Woods
17-02-16, 20:46
ok, so which desired social and economics objectives did the government not meet with the cooling measures? just name one or two is fine.
i'm happy to hear from u...i
Terrybear had answered your questions in his earlier response to my messages. His responses were what the government's desired social and economic objectives.
So you are also on the view that the desired objectives should include OCR prices to crash in tandem as the CCR prices?
i
Terrybear had answered your questions in his earlier response to my messages. His responses were what the government's desired social and economic objectives.
Amber Woods
17-02-16, 21:02
Indeed, the cooling measures have not quite achieved the desired social and economic objectives. Lets' see if the soft landing which the government spoke so loud about can be realised over the next two years.
Anyway, I shall spoon feed you a little. Government's intents among other things were:
1. Property prices must be in line with income.
2 .Price must be in line with future economic growth which will be small as we become a mature economy.
3 Prices must remain affordable to support the aspirations of Singaporeans their desire to upgrade.
4 A sustainable property market.
Ahhh.... that's a scholarly reply with theory.
So how do you translate that to psf for CCR and OCR price? not easy, right?
So what should the fall in prices for CCR and OCR be?
Anyway, I shall spoon feed you a little. Government's intents among other things were:
1. Property prices must be in line with income.
2 .Price must be in line with future economic growth which will be small as we become a mature economy.
3 Prices must remain affordable to support the aspirations of Singaporeans their desire to upgrade.
4 A sustainable property market.
You should read the news more....
The various government ministries already gave you the answers....
Previous MND Minister Mr Khaw said property is affordable to people only when the price is less than or equal to 4x their annual salaries....
OCR property buyers are in the top 80% range, so their household income is something like $15k a month.
So $15k x 12 x 4 = max affordable $720k for a 3 bedroom condos.
That is, Mr Khaw is telling us that OCR 3 bedroom private condos should costs only about $720k, or $600 psf (for a 1200 sqft 3bedroom unit), above which the OCR private condos are over-priced. Make sense? If not, please ask Mr Khaw how he arrive at the 4x annual income? :cheers1:
Didn't Mr Khaw and MAS Tharman said property over-priced and rises too fast ahead of general income growth? That is why they implemented so many property cooling measures? If all these measures do not cool property prices, than their policy implemented contradicted what they said? They really mean property over-priced or not? They said over-priced right? If not over-priced why property cooling measures? If property cooling measures don't cool property prices mean measures failed right? So which is true????
Ahhh.... that's a scholarly reply with theory.
So how do you translate that to psf for CCR and OCR price? not easy, right?
So what should the fall in prices for CCR and OCR be?
Reading is one thing.
Interpreting it is another thing.
Yes the ratio being repeated is 4 and this ratio is more suited towards the majority hdb buyers with income ceiling.
Unfortunately not only those $15k salary will buy OCR properties.
$720k at $600psf. That would lower than EC prices. .
You should read the news more....
The various government ministries already gave you the answers....
Previous MND Minister Mr Khaw said people should only buy properties whose price is about 4x their annual salaries....
OCR property buyers are in the top 80% range, so their household income is something like $15k a month.
So $15k x 12 x 4 = max affordable $720k for a 3 bedroom condos.
That is, Mr Khaw is telling us that OCR 3 bedroom private condos should costs only about $720k, or $600 psf, above which the OCR private condos are over-priced. Make sense? If not, please ask Mr Khaw how he arrive at the 4x annual income? :cheers1:
Didn't Mr Khaw and MAS Tharman said property over-priced and rises too fast ahead of general income growth? That is why they implemented so many property cooling measures? If all these measures do not cool property prices, than their policy implemented contradicted what they said? They really mean property over-priced or not? They said over-priced right? If not over-priced why property cooling measures? If property cooling measures don't cool property prices mean measures failed right? So which is true????
Anyone here interprete or believe that the govt will bring OCR to $600psf??
Reading is one thing.
Interpreting it is another thing.
Yes the ratio being repeated is 4 and this ratio is more suited towards the majority hdb buyers with income ceiling.
Unfortunately not only those $15k salary will buy OCR properties.
$720k at $600psf. That would lower than EC prices. .
Definitely no confusion on my side. And real estate is imperfect not just because of imperfect information. It involves illiquidity, citizenry and complex tax and ownership issues which cause it to show imperfect market conditions just to raise a few.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BXNt4l66-ZA
http://h3laboratories.com/taxes/
"Loss of efficiency is also an effect from a tax and should be properly understood and discussed."
You were confused because you saw government's interventions as a form of market interference to the free market which should be efficient. Perfect market does not exist but the stock market is as close to a perfect market because buyers and sellers operate in a market with close to perfect information. If goverment intervenes in the stock market, the government appears to distort or create inefficiencies into the market as in your own words. However, the real estate market is opposite to that of the stock market because it is operating in a near imperfect market because of imperfect information in the market. Hence, government's interventions are viewed as attempting to make the market toward greater market efficiency.
I will leave this explanation as it is. It is fine if you disagree. Hope you could learn from someone more learned.
You were confused because you saw government's interventions as a form of market interference to the free market which should be efficient. Perfect market does not exist but the stock market is as close to a perfect market because buyers and sellers operate in a market with close to perfect information. If goverment intervenes in the stock market, the government appears to distort or create inefficiencies into the market as in your own words. However, the real estate market is opposite to that of the stock market because it is operating in a near imperfect market because of imperfect information in the market. Hence, government's interventions are viewed as attempting to make the market toward greater market efficiency.
I will leave this explanation as it is. It is fine if you disagree. Hope you could learn from someone more learned.
Hi Amber Woods, thank you for bringing me to this thread.
It is nice to note that I am still remembered by forumers here for my past contributions to this forum.
Amber's explanation of the perfect market (and imperfect market) and market efficiency (and inefficiency) are consistent with macro-economic theory. You impressed upon me your ability to explain market efficiency and inefficiency in layman's language.
The challenge the world is facing is more complex and challenging than when the FED was printing money with near zero interest rates over the last 5 years. These monies have landed into the stock markets, bond markets and caused asset inflation in major cities all over the world without real growth in the global economies. Without real economic growth coupled with prolong depressed oil prices, something will have to give way.
My views on the Singapore's property market have been consistent since late 2011. The property market is long overdue for a correction. Like what Mr Terrybear said, the cooling measures have not been that effective in bringing down prices in OCR. I read somewhere that MAS was watching prices in OCR very closely with the increased number of foreigners buying into OCR and hence supporting its prices. My guess is that the government is not likely to do anything now for fear of a crash. We may have to be a little more patient if the soft landing is to materialize.
Why should the ratio 4x more suited towards majority HDB buyers? You mean "HDB flat" is not property???
You mean the government believes that buyers of private properties can be much more leveraged than HDB buyers? That doesn't make any sense, since regardless of HDB or private properties, all are properties. Anyway, the 4x annual income ratio has been used in many other countries too (for all kind of properties, not HDB flats which they have NONE)! Also, TDSR has been very strict on private properties (and that is to prevent over-leverage)!
When Khaw (and Tharman) brought about all those property cooling measures targeting private properties, he mentioned about the 4x but never say the 4x don't apply to private properties right? If don't then why the need for private property cooling measures?? Doesn't make any cow sense right?? :hopelessness:
Why you said that Reading is one thing and interpreting is another thing?
You mean Khaw or Tharman or the government making double-talk, say 1 thing/way and want you to interpret another way? Hope not! :scared-3:
You have to understand, only 20% of people own private properties in Singapore. So it is only reasonable to assume that the top 20% earners in Singapore can reasonably afford private properties, of which these people's household income is about $15k pm at the top 80% point, and the cheapest private properties of which will be OCR private properties.
Taking into consideration Khaw's 4x annual income, we can easily derive at the figure of $720k or $600 psf for a 3 bedroom condo!
And that is the reason why there are so many private property cooling measures isn't it???
Obviously if private condos are overpriced, what about EC? The government never fixed the price of the EC to ensure that they are easily affordable/cheap right?? :doh:
Reading is one thing.
Interpreting it is another thing.
Yes the ratio being repeated is 4 and this ratio is more suited towards the majority hdb buyers with income ceiling.
Unfortunately not only those $15k salary will buy OCR properties.
$720k at $600psf. That would lower than EC prices. .
Amber's replies do make some sense. However, on the point about efficiency/inefficiency, our stock market is just as efficient as our property market in a perfect world scenario. Then, the FED, BOJ, ECB, CCB all came along with their own stimulus (money printing) which inflated stocks and property market. So much that their values no longer reflect actual growth, worth and affordability. Reality will come upon those who bought at such inflated levels some days so the govt had to intervene. Unfortunately, the real inefficiency is in the govt's CM. They failed to let off air in an evenly manner.
I like to reckon our property market as a Bubble Balloon (those in a small tube that you blow up with a tiny straw). Sometimes air will leak from one side and you try to rescue it with your mouth or by pinching. In the end the whole balloon will be out of shape. Our property market hasn't been equally deflated, which is why Teddy has been harping about OCR crashing! I believe that as long as the govt's artificial interventions are in place, the property market will continue to be inefficient in its current state. OCR will continue to be inflated vs CCR. The bottom line is: this is political and justifies the govt's stance. Think about our wealth gap. I don't think this is coincidental or overlooked and I think this is what the govt wants in the end!
If any CMs were to be removed, they will have to be very careful not to upset "this balance".
I never thought Bro Leeds is more kelong than me. The efficiency and perfect vs imperfect market based on economic theory differs from what you have understood. It differs from layman understanding of perfect and efficient.
No point debating if we can't even get to the same textbook definition.
Hi Amber Woods, thank you for bringing me to this thread.
It is nice to note that I am still remembered by forumers here for my past contributions to this forum.
Amber's explanation of the perfect market (and imperfect market) and market efficiency (and inefficiency) are consistent with macro-economic theory. You impressed upon me your ability to explain market efficiency and inefficiency in layman's language.
The challenge the world is facing is more complex and challenging than when the FED was printing money with near zero interest rates over the last 5 years. These monies have landed into the stock markets, bond markets and caused asset inflation in major cities all over the world without real growth in the global economies. Without real economic growth coupled with prolong depressed oil prices, something will have to give way.
My views on the Singapore's property market have been consistent since late 2011. The property market is long overdue for a correction. Like what Mr Terrybear said, the cooling measures have not been that effective in bringing down prices in OCR. I read somewhere that MAS was watching prices in OCR very closely with the increased number of foreigners buying into OCR and hence supporting its prices. My guess is that the government is not likely to do anything now for fear of a crash. We may have to be a little more patient if the soft landing is to materialize.
Yo teddybear, let me response to you in BLUE below..... and btw, i do read quite a fair bit due to my nature of work, but I would not say for sure that I read more than you in terms of what Mr. Khaw or Mr. Tharman said in the context of ppty here.
Why should the ratio 4x more suited towards majority HDB buyers? You mean "HDB flat" is not property???
Ratio of 4 is intended for majority of the population which happens to reside in public housing here in singapore.(eg. HDB).[/B]
You mean the government believes that buyers of private properties can be much more leveraged than HDB buyers? That doesn't make any sense, since regardless of HDB or private properties, all are properties.
Do you not interprete that govt allow buyers of private ppty to be more leveraged since MSR is applicable to HDB/EC while TDSR is applicable to private?
Anyway, the 4x annual income ratio has been used in many other countries too (for all kind of properties, not HDB flats which they have NONE)! Also, TDSR has been very strict on private properties (and that is to prevent over-leverage)!
Yes, ratio of 4 is floating around the world.... that is the magic number. May I ask you which developed country or city (equivalent to Singapore) has managed to get this ratio of 4? You can start to google.
When Khaw (and Tharman) brought about all those property cooling measures targeting private properties, he mentioned about the 4x but never say the 4x don't apply to private properties right? If don't then why the need for private property cooling measures?? Doesn't make any cow sense right?? :hopelessness:
Did Mr. Khaw and Mr. Tharman also mentioned that 4x is applicable to private ppty too? That is the difference in interpretation. The TDSR is meant to avoid over-leveraging and not to make private ppty 4x ratio as well. The 4x ratio is meant as a guide to buyers to be prudent and buy within his/her means. An annual income of $200k, $500k, $1m can buy into private ppty.
Why you said that Reading is one thing and interpreting is another thing?
You mean Khaw or Tharman or the government making double-talk, say 1 thing/way and want you to interpret another way? Hope not! :scared-3:
It means we can hear the same speech but you n me can interprete in different ways.
You have to understand, only 20% of people own private properties in Singapore. So it is only reasonable to assume that the top 20% earners in Singapore can reasonably afford private properties, of which these people's household income is about $15k pm at the top 80% point, and the cheapest private properties of which will be OCR private properties.
Taking into consideration Khaw's 4x annual income, we can easily derive at the figure of $720k or $600 psf for a 3 bedroom condo!
And that is the reason why there are so many private property cooling measures isn't it???
That's why our interpretation is different. Did Mr. Khaw derive $600psf for OCR and mention in the news? Or you make your own derivation? The public housing is around 4x ratio which the govt is aiming at.
Obviously if private condos are overpriced, what about EC? The government never fixed the price of the EC to ensure that they are easily affordable/cheap right?? :doh:
Do you not interprete that the govt is controlling the EC prices by using MSR and income ceiling?
My guess is that the government is not likely to do anything now for fear of a crash. We may have to be a little more patient if the soft landing is to materialize.[/QUOTE]
You mean govt not likely to add more CMs now for fear of a crash? If now is not consider as soft landing then what is consider? Down 20 % , 30 % or 90% ? Very confuse?
HDB and EC MSR ratio needs to be more stringent because the pool of eligible buyers is much smaller. Singaporeans and > 3 years PR, income caps , MOP period.
Private in SG is open to all incomes, and for non-landed, is open to the world, as long as they have the money.
4 times income only apply to HDB not near mrt. Why must government make private affordable at 4 times income? So u all can buy? Lol lol lol lol. Private should be left untouch because its a free market. If can buy private don't talk about 4 times income.
I do see HDB near mrt is at 4x ratio... even for the hot hot bidadari 4 room at about $450-550k, it is well within 4x for the stipulated income ceiling of $12k.
as for private, agreed with you... if it is 4x for $15k income (=$600psf for OCR), then it must be damn cheap for those high income earners to buy into. Then price moves up and ratio increases.
4 times income only apply to HDB not near mrt. Why must government make private affordable at 4 times income? So u all can buy? Lol lol lol lol. Private should be left untouch because its a free market. If can buy private don't talk about 4 times income.
I never thought Bro Leeds is more kelong than me. The efficiency and perfect vs imperfect market based on economic theory differs from what you have understood. It differs from layman understanding of perfect and efficient.
No point debating if we can't even get to the same textbook definition.
Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. - George Bernad Shaw
Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. - George Bernad Shaw
Yeah totally agreed, what is soft landing? Govt remove CMs now will crash property market?
I do see HDB near mrt is at 4x ratio... even for the hot hot bidadari 4 room at about $450-550k, it is well within 4x for the stipulated income ceiling of $12k.
as for private, agreed with you... if it is 4x for $15k income (=$600psf for OCR), then it must be damn cheap for those high income earners to buy into. Then price moves up and ratio increases.
Agreed! No doubt I MTB, I still agreed to the facts no point KPKB
My response to your reply:
Why should the ratio 4x more suited towards majority HDB buyers? You mean "HDB flat" is not property???
Ratio of 4 is intended for majority of the population which happens to reside in public housing here in singapore.(eg. HDB).
How selectively biased can you be to apply a ratio of 4x to one kind of property and not another? It is like see human speak human language and see ghost speak ghost language? funny indeed! At least Mr Khaw never tell us that he thinks like that too!... :onthego:
You mean the government believes that buyers of private properties can be much more leveraged than HDB buyers? That doesn't make any sense, since regardless of HDB or private properties, all are properties.
Do you not interprete that govt allow buyers of private ppty to be more leveraged since MSR is applicable to HDB/EC while TDSR is applicable to private?
My understanding is that MSR and TDSR are all to prevent over-leverage when buying properties and I can't see much difference. May be you can show us the figures how government structured TDSR such that private property owners can be more leveraged than HDB flats' MSR?
Anyway, the 4x annual income ratio has been used in many other countries too (for all kind of properties, not HDB flats which they have NONE)! Also, TDSR has been very strict on private properties (and that is to prevent over-leverage)!
Yes, ratio of 4 is floating around the world.... that is the magic number. May I ask you which developed country or city (equivalent to Singapore) has managed to get this ratio of 4? You can start to google.
Wow! So no country is able to achieve the ratio of 4x annual salary and MND Minister Mr Khaw still want to adopt? Funny indeed! You are questioning the mental ability of Mr Khaw or otherwise to adopt this ratio of 4x??? :dejection:
When Khaw (and Tharman) brought about all those property cooling measures targeting private properties, he mentioned about the 4x but never say the 4x don't apply to private properties right? If don't then why the need for private property cooling measures?? Doesn't make any cow sense right??
Did Mr. Khaw and Mr. Tharman also mentioned that 4x is applicable to private ppty too? That is the difference in interpretation. The TDSR is meant to avoid over-leveraging and not to make private ppty 4x ratio as well. The 4x ratio is meant as a guide to buyers to be prudent and buy within his/her means. An annual income of $200k, $500k, $1m can buy into private ppty.
Well, Mr Khaw definitely never mention that the 4x don't apply to private properties!
And we definitely won't expect double standard from them where 1 kind of property apply 4x and another apply another ratio right? That will be unprecedented indeed!
Why you said that Reading is one thing and interpreting is another thing?
You mean Khaw or Tharman or the government making double-talk, say 1 thing/way and want you to interpret another way? Hope not!
It means we can hear the same speech but you n me can interprete in different ways.
If the speech's information delivered is clear, there cannot be double interpretation, that is quite certain unless the person want to use excuse such as "different interpretation" just plainly to try to wriggle his way out and talk nonsense, simple as that, just like the 4x ratio which is very quantitative and clear.
You have to understand, only 20% of people own private properties in Singapore. So it is only reasonable to assume that the top 20% earners in Singapore can reasonably afford private properties, of which these people's household income is about $15k pm at the top 80% point, and the cheapest private properties of which will be OCR private properties.
Taking into consideration Khaw's 4x annual income, we can easily derive at the figure of $720k or $600 psf for a 3 bedroom condo!
And that is the reason why there are so many private property cooling measures isn't it???
That's why our interpretation is different. Did Mr. Khaw derive $600psf for OCR and mention in the news? Or you make your own derivation? The public housing is around 4x ratio which the govt is aiming at.
Based on Mr Khaw's mentioned 4x annual income ratio and that the top 20% earners who can afford OCR private properties earn $15k pm, we can easily derive at $600 psf as the affordable (max) figure for 3bedroom OCR private condos. Obviously, if Mr Khaw disagree, he would have told us that the 4x only apply to HDB and not private properties, and if that is the case, it is only appropriate for him to tell us this different figure otherwise it is only appropriate for us to assume that the 4x is the correct figure (anyway this 4x is based on internationally recognized figure, how wrong can it be?) We can't possibly expect a different figure for a different kind of property right??
Obviously if private condos are overpriced, what about EC? The government never fixed the price of the EC to ensure that they are easily affordable/cheap right??
Do you not interprete that the govt is controlling the EC prices by using MSR and income ceiling?
So? you mean government is telling you that EC's price is always affordable and is a benchmark they use to ascertain whether private condos are expensive or not?
Yo teddybear, let me response to you in BLUE below..... and btw, i do read quite a fair bit due to my nature of work, but I would not say for sure that I read more than you in terms of what Mr. Khaw or Mr. Tharman said in the context of ppty here.
teddybear, here it goes.... hope my reply in blue below will erase (and not create more) your stress-like emoji faces.
Why should the ratio 4x more suited towards majority HDB buyers? You mean "HDB flat" is not property???
Ratio of 4 is intended for majority of the population which happens to reside in public housing here in singapore.(eg. HDB).
How selectively biased can you be to apply a ratio of 4x to one kind of property and not another? It is like see human speak human language and see ghost speak ghost language? funny indeed! At least Mr Khaw never tell us that he thinks like that too!...
You see... private ppty is the least restricted asset type among the residential ppty here. Have you looked at the ratios comparing HDB/EC vs. private vs landed before? I used to have a copy taken from one of the presentations that UOB did in the annual budget seminar after the Ministry of Finance announced their yearly budget for the country, but I had deleted it. Otherwise, I would gladly attach here for your reference. Briefly, I remembered that the ratios are about 4x for public housing and increasing for private and then up to about 11 for landed. Of course these ratios changes from year to year depending on the economy, more so due to world issues such as SARS, sub-prime crisis etc, rather than govt's purposeful interventions to meet those ratios. You cannot reach an equilibrium of 4x ratio for private and landed so easily as there is no income cap for such buyers and obviously not as easy as public housing to be at 4x where MSR and income ceiling are there to reach the objective.
You mean the government believes that buyers of private properties can be much more leveraged than HDB buyers? That doesn't make any sense, since regardless of HDB or private properties, all are properties.
Do you not interprete that govt allow buyers of private ppty to be more leveraged since MSR is applicable to HDB/EC while TDSR is applicable to private?
My understanding is that MSR and TDSR are all to prevent over-leverage when buying properties and I can't see much difference. May be you can show us the figures how government structured TDSR such that private property owners can be more leveraged than HDB flats' MSR?
You asked me a question whether I meant that the govt allows buyers of private ppty to be much more leveraged than HDB buyers. I had answered it clearly and it is Yes and I have supported it by referencing to MSR and TDSR. Then I had asked you whether do you interprete in the same way as me and I gathered from your reply, you do not agree with me. You are correct that MSR and TDSR are to serve the purpose to prevent over-leveraging. But look at the difference between MSR and TDSR which is pretty obvious to me, MSR at 30% and TDSR at 60% of gross monthly income. If you still need me to show you the calculations, I would defer to other helpful forummers to advise you.
Anyway, the 4x annual income ratio has been used in many other countries too (for all kind of properties, not HDB flats which they have NONE)! Also, TDSR has been very strict on private properties (and that is to prevent over-leverage)!
Yes, ratio of 4 is floating around the world.... that is the magic number. May I ask you which developed country or city (equivalent to Singapore) has managed to get this ratio of 4? You can start to google.
Wow! So no country is able to achieve the ratio of 4x annual salary and MND Minister Mr Khaw still want to adopt? Funny indeed! You are questioning the mental ability of Mr Khaw or otherwise to adopt this ratio of 4x???
No. Singapore did achieve the 4x ratio in my opinion for the public housing. I will leave it to you to google for other countries. But dun put words in people's mouth, that's quite rude. I did not question the mental ability of Mr. Khaw.
When Khaw (and Tharman) brought about all those property cooling measures targeting private properties, he mentioned about the 4x but never say the 4x don't apply to private properties right? If don't then why the need for private property cooling measures?? Doesn't make any cow sense right??
Did Mr. Khaw and Mr. Tharman also mentioned that 4x is applicable to private ppty too? That is the difference in interpretation. The TDSR is meant to avoid over-leveraging and not to make private ppty 4x ratio as well. The 4x ratio is meant as a guide to buyers to be prudent and buy within his/her means. An annual income of $200k, $500k, $1m can buy into private ppty.
Well, Mr Khaw definitely never mention that the 4x don't apply to private properties!
And we definitely won't expect double standard from them where 1 kind of property apply 4x and another apply another ratio right? That will be unprecedented indeed!
I had explained above, different equilibrium ratios will apply to each segment of the residential market, due to various market forces and govt's intervention. For example, the landed, govt will never ever put in intentional intervention to reach 4x, that is suicidal in imho.
Why you said that Reading is one thing and interpreting is another thing?
You mean Khaw or Tharman or the government making double-talk, say 1 thing/way and want you to interpret another way? Hope not!
It means we can hear the same speech but you n me can interprete in different ways.
If the speech's information delivered is clear, there cannot be double interpretation, that is quite certain unless the person want to use excuse such as "different interpretation" just plainly to try to wriggle his way out and talk nonsense, simple as that, just like the 4x ratio which is very quantitative and clear.
Yes, the speech can be clear, just like 4x ratio. But you had interpret that this 4x translate into $600psf for OCR. You had made your own derivation and I wonder if other forummers will also have the same interpretation that this translate into $600psf for OCR.
You have to understand, only 20% of people own private properties in Singapore. So it is only reasonable to assume that the top 20% earners in Singapore can reasonably afford private properties, of which these people's household income is about $15k pm at the top 80% point, and the cheapest private properties of which will be OCR private properties.
Taking into consideration Khaw's 4x annual income, we can easily derive at the figure of $720k or $600 psf for a 3 bedroom condo!
And that is the reason why there are so many private property cooling measures isn't it???
That's why our interpretation is different. Did Mr. Khaw derive $600psf for OCR and mention in the news? Or you make your own derivation? The public housing is around 4x ratio which the govt is aiming at.
Based on Mr Khaw's mentioned 4x annual income ratio and that the top 20% earners who can afford OCR private properties earn $15k pm, we can easily derive at $600 psf as the affordable (max) figure for 3bedroom OCR private condos. Obviously, if Mr Khaw disagree, he would have told us that the 4x only apply to HDB and not private properties, and if that is the case, it is only appropriate for him to tell us this different figure otherwise it is only appropriate for us to assume that the 4x is the correct figure (anyway this 4x is based on internationally recognized figure, how wrong can it be?) We can't possibly expect a different figure for a different kind of property right??
Yes, different ratios will apply to different segments as explained earlier. Do you need Mr. Khaw to more specific, like 4x ratio to apply to BTO, EC, resale HDB, LH99, FH and landed as well? If the caveats are generic, then do not assume one size fits all.
Obviously if private condos are overpriced, what about EC? The government never fixed the price of the EC to ensure that they are easily affordable/cheap right??
Do you not interprete that the govt is controlling the EC prices by using MSR and income ceiling?
So? you mean government is telling you that EC's price is always affordable and is a benchmark they use to ascertain whether private condos are expensive or not?
My reply is very clear in response to your question. You are of the view that govt never fix the EC prices. I am of the view the govt are controlling the EC prices through measures like MSR and income ceiling. The other forummers can judge who talks more sense or who talks cow sense here. i leave it to the jury
I have no idea what MTB means, i am quite backwards in internet slang... but I do know KPKB....
But sounds like you share the same view as me.... cheers.
Agreed! No doubt I MTB, I still agreed to the facts no point KPKB
Government don't want to make private property affordable and they implement so many cooling measures THAT crash CCR luxury property prices?
You mean government crash CCR luxury properties to make it easily affordable for the rich to buy more cheap cheap?????????
Private property market should be left untouch? You should tell that loudly to the MND/MAS and Singapore government and ask them stop meddling the private property market such that they allow the rich to buy CHEAP CHEAP right? :boxing:
4 times income only apply to HDB not near mrt. Why must government make private affordable at 4 times income? So u all can buy? Lol lol lol lol. Private should be left untouch because its a free market. If can buy private don't talk about 4 times income.
I have no idea what MTB means, i am quite backwards in internet slang... but I do know KPKB....
But sounds like you share the same view as me.... cheers.
Missed the boat lah, I never bought at the bottom. I don't like your views but I have to accept facts. Just waiting for soft landing ( so called crash ) to aboard the boat
The Boat is there all the time, the problem is how long can one stay on the Boat.
If the bank can loan me money now, I will still buy property.
Do you mean now? There are other better vehicles to wealth accumulation.
The Boat is there all the time, the problem is how long can one stay on the Boat.
If the bank can loan me money now, I will still buy property.
If you wish to redefine conventional and textbook terms, surely you can quote 1 recognized paper or academician that supports that way of definition?
Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. - George Bernad Shaw
Top bid of $419.4m for Tanah Merah site!!! Property market going to crash? Yeah the record PSF to going crash. New high PSF record in making. LOL
Still have to be patient ? Soft landing is about to be over soon
Work out to be about 7xx psf + 300psf (construction cost). Can sell at averaging $1300psf.
Top bid of $419.4m for Tanah Merah site!!! Property market going to crash? Yeah the record PSF to going crash. New high PSF record in making. LOL
300 PSF will be very basic.
New developments must use PPVC technology which due to lower economies of scale at the moment, has been more costly than stick building methods.
Also subject to commodity and fuel price increases few years down the road.
We can only wait and see...
Work out to be about 7xx psf + 300psf (construction cost). Can sell at averaging $1300psf.
does the developer minds better than us? if they still bidding in high amount on land that show the properties still able to grow?
Many people still don't understand... Sigh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Give you an analogy:
We all know that Malaysia properties has limited capital appreciation potential, so it is not worth buying for investment right?
However, you can make lots of money being the DEVELOPER...
You must remember the difference between DEVELOPER and PROPERTY INVESTOR (the person holding the "baby" (i.e. property) after they are "born" (i.e. completed))..........
DEVELOPER get the land, quickly sell the S&P paper, get your deposit, transfer the RISK legally to you, then they build...
Your money legally in their pocket from the moment they sell you the S&P paper... Why would they care whether the property price is DOWN 1 year or 2 year or 3 year later when you get your built property???
does the developer minds better than us? if they still bidding in high amount on land that show the properties still able to grow?
Not economical for such small scale project. HDB will be good.
300 PSF will be very basic.
New developments must use PPVC technology which due to lower economies of scale at the moment, has been more costly than stick building methods.
Also subject to commodity and fuel price increases few years down the road.
We can only wait and see...
Bro DC33_2008, your calculations are way off.
Mine is much closer but expert estimation even higher.
http://www.straitstimes.com/business/property/strong-bids-at-third-gls-residential-site-tender-this-year
Eventual breakeven costs could be $1,250 to $1,300 psf, while the developer could aim to launch the condo at above $1,500 psf, said Mr Nicholas Mak, SLP International executive director.
Not economical for such small scale project. HDB will be good.
Can always price high but can sell. Facing mrt track and in such markey. Look at what happen to D15.
Bro DC33_2008, your calculations are way off.
Mine is much closer but expert estimation even higher.
http://www.straitstimes.com/business/property/strong-bids-at-third-gls-residential-site-tender-this-year
Eventual breakeven costs could be $1,250 to $1,300 psf, while the developer could aim to launch the condo at above $1,500 psf, said Mr Nicholas Mak, SLP International executive director.
They have 5 years to TOP and 2 more years to sell before kenna taxes.
7 years till 2023.
If they pay extension taxes and stretch to 2026?
7 to 10 years oof income growth can't sell?
Can always price high but can sell. Facing mrt track and in such markey. Look at what happen to D15.
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