View Full Version : Going forward, what is your thought on SG Property?
This is just a sentiment check. I am vested.
1. All these talks about tapering, interest rates going up in 2016 is a good thing. I would be more afraid if everyone is bullish now.
2. Interest rates have been historical low, what goes down has to goes up. All these news and warnings should be enuff to create awareness among owners. There is a timline of 2 to 3 years for interest rates to move up to a level that is quite significant (provided there is no sudden change in fed policy). That would give us owners and investors enough time to build up more war chest to buffer the rate hike. Easily most prop investors can accumulate 200k to 400k in 2 years. That will see us through the winter (higher mortgage installment).
3. Tapering is because fed feels that us economy is on the right track. Sg is a major partner with usa. Improvement in their economy could only mean good news for ours. This will create more jobs, more expats and hence rent has the chance of increasing as by 2016 the supply of new units also would taper.
4. Are there still value buys? There are. Many said u would have missed the boat if you didnt invest prior to 2009 (after the lehman collapse). There ARE still places where the price is still at 2009 psf. These are desirable places.
5. Since I am vested in a few properties, I can tell you that I HAVE NO INTENTION IN SELLING. I am pretty sure this is the sentiments of most property owners/investors. Reason being the previous CM has made our financial position pretty strong (Rental at least twice mortgage payment). Yes, there will be some panic selling, valuation may drop but volume will be v thin. So to those mtb, good luck to you if you can snap up a fire sale. Most of us are staying put to milk the rents.
Just my own sentiment as a owner and investor both in sg and abroad.
This is just a sentiment check. I am vested.
1. All these talks about tapering, interest rates going up in 2016 is a good thing. I would be more afraid if everyone is bullish now.
2. Interest rates have been historical low, what goes down has to goes up. All these news and warnings should be enuff to create awareness among owners. There is a timline of 2 to 3 years for interest rates to move up to a level that is quite significant (provided there is no sudden change in fed policy). That would give us owners and investors enough time to build up more war chest to buffer the rate hike. Easily most prop investors can accumulate 200k to 400k in 2 years. That will see us through the winter (higher mortgage installment).
3. Tapering is because fed feels that us economy is on the right track. Sg is a major partner with usa. Improvement in their economy could only mean good news for ours. This will create more jobs, more expats and hence rent has the chance of increasing as by 2016 the supply of new units also would taper.
4. Are there still value buys? There are. Many said u would have missed the boat if you didnt invest prior to 2009 (after the lehman collapse). There ARE still places where the price is still at 2009 psf. These are desirable places.
5. Since I am vested in a few properties, I can tell you that I HAVE NO INTENTION IN SELLING. I am pretty sure this is the sentiments of most property owners/investors. Reason being the previous CM has made our financial position pretty strong (Rental at least twice mortgage payment). Yes, there will be some panic selling, valuation may drop but volume will be v thin. So to those mtb, good luck to you if you can snap up a fire sale. Most of us are staying put to milk the rents.
Just my own sentiment as a owner and investor both in sg and abroad.
http://forums.condosingapore.com/showthread.php?t=19476
Majority including myself are bullish, but why are you afraid? The herd is lead by the wealthy self proclaimed handsome with third eye and actress wife, price will fly soon, please hold and buy more now so that you won't regret in future. Bearish people will likely be the ultimate losers.
puffer_fish
21-12-13, 12:52
almost parallel to your thinking, i dont make my monies via properties, i make them via my business.
the reason why i buy properties is to accumulate them for my 3 children so like you, ONLY BUY, NO SELLING.
luckily due to my business, i use half of the properties as warehouse or office, so dont rely on tenants to finance them. 1 key point, i only have 1 small loan, the rest are fully paid thanks to the wisdom of my parents and grandparents
My confidence level on SG property is at the highest now. So many rich people in both public and private sectors, all got holding power. Don't need to be smart to know whats gonna happen next!
Honestly, dont know about u guys. I am just a normal employee. But I have seen my annual employment income increased from 80k pa 5yrs ago to 150k pa now. I suspect I am just a dime in a dozen, many in sg have experienced increase in income. Wife adds on another 100k pa. Looking at the huge crowd at the malls shopping, super long queue at restaurants and taxi stand, long queues at changi airport checkin counters with sg passports, I think there are really many many high income earners.
invigorated
21-12-13, 17:38
Honestly, dont know about u guys. I am just a normal employee. But I have seen my annual employment income increased from 80k pa 5yrs ago to 150k pa now. I suspect I am just a dime in a dozen, many in sg have experienced increase in income. Wife adds on another 100k pa. Looking at the huge crowd at the malls shopping, super long queue at restaurants and taxi stand, long queues at changi airport checkin counters with sg passports, I think there are really many many high income earners.
I dont see how we can correlate crowds in malls shopping, queues at restaurants with a sustained increase in ppty prices. You dont need a few millions to eat there or travel budget airlines. Some of those who are affluent there may have bought a few units and planning to sell? How to tell? Are you also observing it at the time of the year when shopping is at its peak?
Humans will always see what they wanna see. U have to use something more tangible to come to a conclusion. Median incomes have indeed risen but not to the extend you are quoting. My income may have increased but i do have frens who have switched jobs and have lower incomes. And they do still eat atas and shop too, so how to conclude?
Honestly, dont know about u guys. I am just a normal employee. But I have seen my annual employment income increased from 80k pa 5yrs ago to 150k pa now. I suspect I am just a dime in a dozen, many in sg have experienced increase in income. Wife adds on another 100k pa. Looking at the huge crowd at the malls shopping, super long queue at restaurants and taxi stand, long queues at changi airport checkin counters with sg passports, I think there are really many many high income earners.
Well there are many people kpkb say wage never increased the last 10yrs!. I dint agree. I personally seen drastic increase in wages. So I say the spending power is there.
Well there are many people kpkb say wage never increased the last 10yrs!. I dint agree. I personally seen drastic increase in wages. So I say the spending power is there.
However pple have learnt smarter and more savvy. Not necessary they will spend without 2nd thoughts.
That how they can save up more and venture in opportunities should it arises
Honestly, dont know about u guys. I am just a normal employee. But I have seen my annual employment income increased from 80k pa 5yrs ago to 150k pa now. I suspect I am just a dime in a dozen, many in sg have experienced increase in income. Wife adds on another 100k pa. Looking at the huge crowd at the malls shopping, super long queue at restaurants and taxi stand, long queues at changi airport checkin counters with sg passports, I think there are really many many high income earners.
Of course there are. I know of civil servants monthly salary adjustment/increment was 4 digits each year for the past several years. Even primary school teachers are now getting 6-7k monthly after all the adjustments. These people are just the middle bracket in the civil/public service. The purchasing power of their elite bracket would be even more stellar.
Of course there are. I know of civil servants monthly salary adjustment/increment was 4 digits each year for the past several years. Even primary school teachers are now getting 6-7k monthly after all the adjustments. These people are just the middle bracket in the civil/public service. The purchasing power of their elite bracket would be even more stellar.
3 digit increment is more correct. But I agree on the teacher salary.
Graduates in their late 20s, with local degree, are drawing 6k+ already.
3 digit increment is more correct. But I agree on the teacher salary.
Graduates in their late 20s, with local degree, are drawing 6k+ already.
I did'nt type wrong. It is 4 digits. 15-20% adjustment+increment. You may have gotten high 3 digits. I remembered clearly that the bulk adjustment happened during the minister's pay reduction period. ;-)
Teacher is 3 digits.
Yes, that is valid for the normal graduates working in the government and the better paying industry in pte sectors.
It is good sign when people are eating ate restaurant, buying, shopping and traveling. It helps to boost the economy. :D
I dont see how we can correlate crowds in malls shopping, queues at restaurants with a sustained increase in ppty prices. You dont need a few millions to eat there or travel budget airlines. Some of those who are affluent there may have bought a few units and planning to sell? How to tell? Are you also observing it at the time of the year when shopping is at its peak?
Humans will always see what they wanna see. U have to use something more tangible to come to a conclusion. Median incomes have indeed risen but not to the extend you are quoting. My income may have increased but i do have frens who have switched jobs and have lower incomes. And they do still eat atas and shop too, so how to conclude?
Minister or senior people in private sectors get main bulk of salary from bonus. Did you observe how GDP move north in the last quarter. :p
I did'nt type wrong. It is 4 digits. 15-20% adjustment+increment. You may have gotten high 3 digits. I remembered clearly that the bulk adjustment happened during the minister's pay reduction period. ;-)
Teacher is 3 digits.
Yes, that is valid for the normal graduates working in the government and the better paying industry in pte sectors.
Minister or senior people in private sectors get main bulk of salary from bonus. Did you observe how GDP move north in the last quarter. :p
Haha, yes, GDP bonus. That's for the top grade civil servants. I've concluded if my kids can't get into medicine or law, it shall be civil service. Low risk good pay job.
Doctor and lawyer have no time to spend the money they make. Difficult to have a balance life.
Haha, yes, GDP bonus. That's for the top grade civil servants. I've concluded if my kids can't get into medicine or law, it shall be civil service. Low risk good pay job.
3 digit increment is more correct. But I agree on the teacher salary.
Graduates in their late 20s, with local degree, are drawing 6k+ already.
Any how say , unless u are one of them, hahaha
invigorated
22-12-13, 09:03
3 digit increment is more correct. But I agree on the teacher salary.
Graduates in their late 20s, with local degree, are drawing 6k+ already.
To draw 6k odd, you have to be a senior teacher. Don't sabo and anyhow say lei. That said, 6k may be possible for scholars but this doesnt rep the rest of the cohort.
Pls also do not compare teacher salary with the rest of civil service.. the last adjustment enabled them to draw more to compensate for their more important role and contribution. Bear in mind that there is also a salary cap for teachers who dont hold leadership positions.
invigorated
22-12-13, 09:20
http://www.salary.sg/2012/compare-your-annual-income-latest/
If you earn abt 103000, you will already be in the top 20% of those earning beyond 20k. This doesn't include the lower income group earning less than 20k as they dont pay taxes.
The last civil service adjustment didn't benefit everyone equally. Unless you are in the civil service, it's best not to comment based on hearsay. The bigger increases, not in % but in absolute salaries, do not benefit the bulk of the group. I know as i have siblings and friends in the service and i hear their complaints. A manager in his 30s earns about 5k, but this varies across ministries.
Doctor and lawyer have no time to spend the money they make. Difficult to have a balance life.
Maybe not for aesthetics doc
invigorated
22-12-13, 10:21
http://www.salary.sg/2012/compare-your-annual-income-latest/
If you earn abt 103000, you will already be in the top 20% of those earning beyond 20k. This doesn't include the lower income group earning less than 20k as they dont pay taxes.
The last civil service adjustment didn't benefit everyone equally. Unless you are in the civil service, it's best not to comment based on hearsay. The bigger increases, not in % but in absolute salaries, do not benefit the bulk of the group. I know as i have siblings and friends in the service and i hear their complaints. A manager in his 30s earns about 5k, but this varies across ministries.
This is more recent: http://www.salary.sg/2013/compare-your-annual-income-2013/
103k annual pay stands at top 21%.
http://www.salary.sg/2012/compare-your-annual-income-latest/
If you earn abt 103000, you will already be in the top 20% of those earning beyond 20k. This doesn't include the lower income group earning less than 20k as they dont pay taxes.
The last civil service adjustment didn't benefit everyone equally. Unless you are in the civil service, it's best not to comment based on hearsay. The bigger increases, not in % but in absolute salaries, do not benefit the bulk of the group. I know as i have siblings and friends in the service and i hear their complaints. A manager in his 30s earns about 5k, but this varies across ministries.
As some one pointed out, in civil or public service, a huge bulk of annual salary comes from bonuses. Typically default is 15 months package. Good performer goes up to about 17 to 18months package. So the annual is ok.
No amount of salary will do anything for you if you dont know how to make your money work hard enough.
As for TS topic, my take is we need to be flexible and act fast when opportunities present themselves. There is no need to hold on to a belief or idea when every variable and constant in the economic climate is telling you to act swift with a dose of boldness.
Not everyone is in the same situation. So I dont believe in such things as seller's or buyer's market. Nor it is a 'time to sell' nor 'time to buy'.
In the end, it is only about what works for you.
Heard they can get anything from 12 months to 24 months bonuses? Is that true? :beats-me-man:
Haha, yes, GDP bonus. That's for the top grade civil servants. I've concluded if my kids can't get into medicine or law, it shall be civil service. Low risk good pay job.
3 digit increment is more correct. But I agree on the teacher salary.
Graduates in their late 20s, with local degree, are drawing 6k+ already.
Lol, u all got me wrong. The two statements have no link. Am not saying graduate teacher in late 20s are earning 6k+.
Am saying those late 20s grads (in pte sector) I notice more are earning 6k+ compare to my time.
As for teachers, my teacher friends in mid or late 30s are drawing about high 6k to 7k. Annually abt 1xxk. Seems attractive but the job scope sucks dealing with youngsters these days and sucky parents too.
invigorated
22-12-13, 10:34
Lol, u all got me wrong. The two statements have no link. Am not saying graduate teacher in late 20s are earning 6k+.
Am saying those late 20s grads (in pte sector) I notice more are earning 6k+ compare to my time.
As for teachers, my teacher friends in mid or late 30s are drawing about high 6k to 7k. Annually abt 1xxk. Seems attractive but the job scope sucks dealing with youngsters these days and sucky parents too.
6k to 7k for late 30s was already the norm for teachers some 5 years ago. If you probe more, they prob will share that quite a few will be stuck in this range unless they move on to hod, vp etc. It's mostly entry salaries that have gone up.
invigorated
22-12-13, 10:35
No amount of salary will do anything for you if you dont know how to make your money work hard enough.
As for TS topic, my take is we need to be flexible and act fast when opportunities present themselves. There is no need to hold on to a belief or idea when every variable and constant in the economic climate is telling you to act swift with a dose of boldness.
Not everyone is in the same situation. So I dont believe in such things as seller's or buyer's market. Nor it is a 'time to sell' nor 'time to buy'.
In the end, it is only about what works for you.
Agree, ones own timing is most important.
Crowds today don't represent crowds tomorrow.
This is more recent: http://www.salary.sg/2013/compare-your-annual-income-2013/
103k annual pay stands at top 21%.
There is a big bulk of SME bosses and hawkers earning whom easily draw more than that and v easy to underdeclare them. Just look at those 3rm hdb estates with shiny beemers and mercedes. Nabeh. Many landlord also under or don't declare their rental. add all that, those officially earning 103k easily drop to 70th percentile. my own thoughts only, dont believe wholesale hor!
6k to 7k for late 30s was already the norm for teachers some 5 years ago. If you probe more, they prob will share that quite a few will be stuck in this range unless they move on to hod, vp etc. It's mostly entry salaries that have gone up.
Agree on the part of higher entry salary. Which I sense somehow push up hdb resale prices, esp among young teachers starting out family.
invigorated
22-12-13, 10:42
As some one pointed out, in civil or public service, a huge bulk of annual salary comes from bonuses. Typically default is 15 months package. Good performer goes up to about 17 to 18months package. So the annual is ok.
The amount of 103k already accounts for all commissions, bonuses, part-time salaries.
Are you in the civil service? Default 15 months? In some years when my sibling was there, only 1 month on top of standard 13 month. It depends.
Another Holy Grail is saf regular officers (uni grad). V high annual package compared to their peers in civil or public sector. How many majors and above officers are there in total?these easily take up many spots in the top20% high income list in sg.
The amount of 103k already accounts for all commissions, bonuses, part-time salaries.
Are you in the civil service? Default 15 months? In some years when my sibling was there, only 1 month on top of standard 13 month. It depends.
12 basic, 13th mth, 1mth gdp, 1 mth performance.
invigorated
22-12-13, 10:44
There is a big bulk of SME bosses and hawkers earning whom easily draw more than that and v easy to underdeclare them. Just look at those 3rm hdb estates with shiny beemers and mercedes. Nabeh. Many landlord also under or don't declare their rental. add all that, those officially earning 103k easily drop to 70th percentile. my own thoughts only, dont believe wholesale hor!
Big bulk? How do you tell? I know a few but I won't call that bulk. Yup this is definitely just your thoughts.
invigorated
22-12-13, 10:45
12 basic, 13th mth, 1mth gdp, 1 mth performance.
Ok if you include pb to the calculations.
But even 15x6k=90, not even touching 100k yet.
invigorated
22-12-13, 10:58
Anyway lets not digress into a salary discussion thread.
Rises in salaries are not fruitful to property prices if the property prices exceed the increase in wages.
Are there enough of these people in this upper quartile to soak up all the houses coming up? That only time, and maybe some stats, will tell.
Anyway lets not digress into a salary discussion thread.
Rises in salaries are not fruitful to property prices if the property prices exceed the increase in wages.
Are there enough of these people in this upper quartile to soak up all the houses coming up? That only time, and maybe some stats, will tell.
Very wrong with this statement:
"Rises in salaries are not fruitful to property prices if the property prices exceed the increase in wages."
Property prices will always exceed salary increament. Inflation will also exceed salary increament. That why people r looking into investment to beat inflation.
it should be flat or higher in 2014/15
Very wrong with this statement:
"Rises in salaries are not fruitful to property prices if the property prices exceed the increase in wages."
Property prices will always exceed salary increament. Inflation will also exceed salary increament. That why people r looking into investment to beat inflation.
Raise in salary have to be inline with improved skill set or productivity. if not why would employer pay more to the employee other than inflationary purpose leh.
So its important to always climb the ladder. stay put then u get pay stagnation. No one to blame but one self lor.
Not necessary people looking at investment to beat inflation. investment to achieve more than what one can do base on personal skill set or productivity improvement. Investment is leveraging on others.
Raise in salary have to be inline with improved skill set or productivity. if not why would employer pay more to the employee other than inflationary purpose leh.
So its important to always climb the ladder. stay put then u get pay stagnation. No one to blame but one self lor.
Not necessary people looking at investment to beat inflation. investment to achieve more than what one can do base on personal skill set or productivity improvement. Investment is leveraging on others.
When salary is going to hit ceiling increament is very low. Moreover once reached 40yrs old one will likely to remain in the job.
If salary can catch up with inflation or property increament u will not see so many foreigners from philiphines, malaysia, india coming here to work.
In singapore the only way is to job hop if stay put likely increament loses out to property increament.
Why need job hop? Ministers and super scale civil servants don't need also can get high salary right?
Possibly private sectors also can, provided you can prove your worth to the company?
If salary can catch up with inflation or property increament u will not see so many foreigners from philiphines, malaysia, india coming here to work.
In singapore the only way is to job hop if stay put likely increament loses out to property increament.
usually wage inflation > CPI core inflation.
it is ideal that wage inflation = asset inflation, but in good times (2006-2008, 2010-2011), asset inflation > wage inflation, and inverse in bad times.
Since 2011 after CM, wage inflation of 4-5%/year > asset inflation 2-3%/year which is a good sign.
Mr Tharman has said in 2011 that gov is looking to raise median real income by 30% over this decade.
If adding 3% inflation/year, total wage increase should be 60% by 2020.
So if we take previous good times overshoot, asset prices may go up by 40% by 2020
usually wage inflation > CPI core inflation.
it is ideal that wage inflation = asset inflation, but in good times (2006-2008, 2010-2011), asset inflation > wage inflation, and inverse in bad times.
Since 2011 after CM, wage inflation of 4-5%/year > asset inflation 2-3%/year which is a good sign.
Mr Tharman has said in 2011 that gov is looking to raise median real income by 30% over this decade.
If adding 3% inflation/year, total wage increase should be 60% by 2020.
So if we take previous good times overshoot, asset prices may go up by 40% by 2020
Kind of agree with your observation!
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