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Yuki
05-05-14, 09:12
This is what I have observed:

1) smaller units
2) shorter ceiling height
3) laminates no timber
4) tiles no marble
5) very thin kitchen tops

What else have you observed?

hyenergix
05-05-14, 09:31
This is what I have observed:

1) smaller units
2) shorter ceiling height
3) laminates no timber
4) tiles no marble
5) very thin kitchen tops

What else have you observed?


Huge air-con ledges
Dry wall instead of brick wall
Less carpark lots
High unit density
No intercomm (direct to telephone)
No free whitegoods
Expensive maintenance fee
and many more

gn108
05-05-14, 09:43
Demand and Supply.

Collectively we did ourselves in (investors).

We "asked" for

- smaller built-in (easier maintenance) then pay higher PSF.
- longer financing. So 30 years + also available. So willing to pay higher.
- ETC ETC

In short, we asked for it, and developers/bankers gave it to us.

wt_know
05-05-14, 09:52
not we ask for it ... govt ask for it
govt control the supply (land) and population (demand)
supply stagnant and demand spike exponentially
that's what we got today
lastly, developer maximize the profit
hence, what we have is smaller, thinner, lesser, etc

for years, many shouted don't want like HK ... 1000sqft is considered luxury apartment and we are heading to HK style ... just slowly

5 years ago ... 1000sqft is standard ... 10 years ago 1000sqft is basic


Demand and Supply.

Collectively we did ourselves in (investors).

We "asked" for

- smaller built-in (easier maintenance) then pay higher PSF.
- longer financing. So 30 years + also available. So willing to pay higher.
- ETC ETC

In short, we asked for it, and developers/bankers gave it to us.

august
05-05-14, 10:18
poorer and poorer quality control.
workmanship at all time low.

Amber Woods
05-05-14, 10:20
Not fair to blame the government.

Even when developer said it was inhuman to build shoe box units, people sill bought even more because they were affordable. The buyers never think of liveability or the high psf price that came with the purchases. These buyers simply buy believing or hoping that they could achieve higher yield with smaller units.

As for developers, since there is demand for small units and they can make more profit selling small units, why build large units with less profit.

As more people buy small units, land price increases and hence quality suffers to maintain profitability and affordability.

So, it is the people who continue to buy small units that is contributing to today's problems. Then again you may ask, if don't buy small unit buy what? The answer is we ask for it.

azeoprop
05-05-14, 10:25
poorer and poorer quality control.
workmanship at all time low.

This is so true even for so called luxurious projects. :tsk-tsk:

Yuki
05-05-14, 10:27
This is so true even for so called luxurious projects. :tsk-tsk:

Humm.. Think it's a combination of contributing factors..

In the end genuine home owners suffer. :beats-me-man:

august
05-05-14, 10:33
This is so true even for so called luxurious projects. :tsk-tsk:

and this is at brand new TOP stage.
wonder what will happen several years after that.

Kelonguni
05-05-14, 10:36
Not fair to blame the government.

Even when developer said it was inhuman to build shoe box units, people sill bought even more because they were affordable. The buyers never think of liveability or the high psf price that came with the purchases. These buyers simply buy believing or hoping that they could achieve higher yield with smaller units.

As for developers, since there is demand for small units and they can make more profit selling small units, why build large units with less profit.

As more people buy small units, land price increases and hence quality suffers to maintain profitability and affordability.

So, it is the people who continue to buy small units that is contributing to today's problems. Then again you may ask, if don't buy small unit buy what? The answer is we ask for it.

Small units are excellent for most people such as singles and retirees (which are amongst the fastest growing groups), and especially modern / future living without huge TVs and TV consoles of the past, altars and cumbersome furnitures.

Small is great. Most important is functional design and durable workmanship, which are perhaps compromised with the rush to complete projects and maximise profits, as well as the lack of skilled workmen to deliver the necessary.

teddybear
05-05-14, 10:41
Govt can legislate minimum built-in space required for each type of BR unit (eg 1BR min 500 sqft, 2BR min 800 sqft, 3BR min 1000 sqft), and each Masterbedroom min must have how much in sqft and each normal bedroom min must be how much in sqft etc!
Can't rely on developers right? :banghead:


Not fair to blame the government.

Even when developer said it was inhuman to build shoe box units, people sill bought even more because they were affordable. The buyers never think of liveability or the high psf price that came with the purchases. These buyers simply buy believing or hoping that they could achieve higher yield with smaller units.

As for developers, since there is demand for small units and they can make more profit selling small units, why build large units with less profit.

As more people buy small units, land price increases and hence quality suffers to maintain profitability and affordability.

So, it is the people who continue to buy small units that is contributing to today's problems. Then again you may ask, if don't buy small unit buy what? The answer is we ask for it.

minority
05-05-14, 10:53
Not fair to blame the government.

Even when developer said it was inhuman to build shoe box units, people sill bought even more because they were affordable. The buyers never think of liveability or the high psf price that came with the purchases. These buyers simply buy believing or hoping that they could achieve higher yield with smaller units.

As for developers, since there is demand for small units and they can make more profit selling small units, why build large units with less profit.

As more people buy small units, land price increases and hence quality suffers to maintain profitability and affordability.

So, it is the people who continue to buy small units that is contributing to today's problems. Then again you may ask, if don't buy small unit buy what? The answer is we ask for it.

supply demand. Cheap $ fuelling everyone land lording dreams. All the small units are bought with the intent to invest.

Kelonguni
05-05-14, 10:54
Govt can legislate minimum built-in space required for each type of BR unit (eg 1BR min 500 sqft, 2BR min 800 sqft, 3BR min 1000 sqft), and each Masterbedroom min must have how much in sqft and each normal bedroom min must be how much in sqft etc!
Can't rely on developers right? :banghead:

That is too artificial. The moment the Govt sets this, the next moment there will be people petitioning against this, as it supports the prices at certain points.

What if developers fall below that figure? Award fines? Who to check and monitor?

Sizes are based on free will and demand-driven. No need to regulate this at all - you can find some people living in 90 sqft space in crowded cities. Not an issue at all for them (who are likely to be larger size than most Asians).

The issue here is if quality and workmanship declines.

minority
05-05-14, 10:55
Govt can legislate minimum built-in space required for each type of BR unit (eg 1BR min 500 sqft, 2BR min 800 sqft, 3BR min 1000 sqft), and each Masterbedroom min must have how much in sqft and each normal bedroom min must be how much in sqft etc!
Can't rely on developers right? :banghead:


u never read meh? already cap the no. of under 500sqf units to be build. Everything must ah kong limit? If Singaporean so unhappy with small units they can exercise their consumer rights not to purchase. the developers will not build if there is no demand.

government restrict the size then some jokers like u will cry foul say they like small units coz they single easy to clean why cannot allow them have smaller units!

Kelonguni
05-05-14, 10:56
supply demand. Cheap $ fuelling everyone land lording dreams. All the small units are bought with the intent to invest.

Not totally true. Some plan to retire in one, and many singles buy to live in them (avoid paying rent).

hopeful
05-05-14, 10:57
Not fair to blame the government.

Even when developer said it was inhuman to build shoe box units, people sill bought even more because they were affordable. The buyers never think of liveability or the high psf price that came with the purchases. These buyers simply buy believing or hoping that they could achieve higher yield with smaller units.

As for developers, since there is demand for small units and they can make more profit selling small units, why build large units with less profit.

As more people buy small units, land price increases and hence quality suffers to maintain profitability and affordability.

So, it is the people who continue to buy small units that is contributing to today's problems. Then again you may ask, if don't buy small unit buy what? The answer is we ask for it.

so it is market demand? i believe there is market demand for drugs, why govt banned it har. govt reduced supply until it is only available in black market, which drive prices high.
if drugs not banned, why prices of drugs would fall and people would need not resort to crimes to feed their habit.
do singaporeans commit crimes to buy a pack of cigarettes?

teddybear
05-05-14, 11:20
Govt also allow developers to put in un-usable space to sell like bay-windows and planter areas, big big air-con ledges, no wonder nowadays 1200 sqft actual usable space is <1000 sqft of old units...................... :tsk-tsk:
So, even 1000 sqft min size is already rather small! :banghead:


u never read meh? already cap the no. of under 500sqf units to be build. Everything must ah kong limit? If Singaporean so unhappy with small units they can exercise their consumer rights not to purchase. the developers will not build if there is no demand.

government restrict the size then some jokers like u will cry foul say they like small units coz they single easy to clean why cannot allow them have smaller units!

Yuki
05-05-14, 11:33
To conclude property landscape in terms of quality sizes value of money is worsening in just a matter of half a decade.

But yet we are supposedly to be better off when our country progresses.

teddybear
05-05-14, 11:46
May be some people are very very much better off, so you really have to break down the categories like:
Very rich people
Middle-class people
low-income people
politicians
retirees
...(etc)... :p

E.g., low-skilled workers like cleaners and security guards are so much worst off that the govt have to lend a helping hand with the min wages (ops, it is "progressive wages" (to be politically correct)..............)


To conclude property landscape in terms of quality sizes value of money is worsening in just a matter of half a decade.

But yet we are supposedly to be better off when our country progresses.

Amber Woods
05-05-14, 12:00
so it is market demand? i believe there is market demand for drugs, why govt banned it har. govt reduced supply until it is only available in black market, which drive prices high.
if drugs not banned, why prices of drugs would fall and people would need not resort to crimes to feed their habit.
do singaporeans commit crimes to buy a pack of cigarettes?

In housing, you cannot confidently say it is market demand because housing is scare resource and hence can be easily exploited by developers. As such, government's intervention is necessary from time to time when the bigger forces are exploiting or benefiting from the situation at the expense of consumers. This is more of the case that is happening in Singapore's housing market right now.

Kelonguni
05-05-14, 12:20
To conclude property landscape in terms of quality sizes value of money is worsening in just a matter of half a decade.

But yet we are supposedly to be better off when our country progresses.

If size is your only concern, my suggestion is to go for HDBs. Great location, low psf, minimum quality guarantee, low maintenance fees.

Komo
05-05-14, 13:16
In housing, you cannot confidently say it is market demand because housing is scare resource and hence can be easily exploited by developers. As such, government's intervention is necessary from time to time when the bigger forces are exploiting or benefiting from the situation at the expense of consumers. This is more of the case that is happening in Singapore's housing market right now.

well said ... but I can't help to feel that everyone is exploiting and maximizing selfish gain. there is only one loser, the consumer

minority
05-05-14, 13:18
Not totally true. Some plan to retire in one, and many singles buy to live in them (avoid paying rent).

yes thats true but a large % are with investment in mind. Some singles I know buy with investment in mind abut later see the unit the think too much hassle to manage rental they decide to stay a few years use it 1st then later rent out.

minority
05-05-14, 13:19
Govt also allow developers to put in un-usable space to sell like bay-windows and planter areas, big big air-con ledges, no wonder nowadays 1200 sqft actual usable space is <1000 sqft of old units...................... :tsk-tsk:
So, even 1000 sqft min size is already rather small! :banghead:

Well then buyers can reject buying units like this. No one force them to buy. if buyers reject buying the developers will have to change the design. willing buyer willing seller. blame who?

u like that say. u must will say ah kong must dictate all units be min 3000sqf a unit. So that more people can stay in 1 unit mulit tenant it.

only pole people like u everyday KPKB hoping people buy have to force sell then u can go pick durian.

boonlaysg
05-05-14, 14:04
some more upside down development for new SG condos:

1. balcony bigger than living room. thanks to 10% bonus balcony ruling.
2. smaller units command better facing than bigger units in the same block. notice a few projects whereby smaller units have nice pool view compared to 3 bedders.
3. kitchens are not for cooking, for show nia.
4. kitchens and dining are the first things to be seen when one enters the house. a very big no no in terms of fengshui. also kitchen cabinets that are supposed to be used for plates, utensils etc are being used for washing machine. very bad FS indeed. water and fire lagi chiong.
5. space so small, samma open concept kitchen.
6. main doors are very close to neighbour's.
7. rubbish chute all outside the unit
8. bathrooms are very small. everything feel very claustrophobic even for a
'3 bedder'.

i think developer should stop blaming the cooling measures for the lackluster sales. Gone are the days whereby buyers will buy almost anything developers are selling. Developers should refocus instead on the fundamentals -giving buyers value for money units in terms of space, functionality and price, sales should go up again.

Stop selling TOY houses and start selling REAL houses.

smellyfish
05-05-14, 14:20
the three Bs - bomb shelter, balcony and baywindows.

Amber Woods
05-05-14, 14:24
some more upside down development for new SG condos:

1. balcony bigger than living room. thanks to 10% bonus balcony ruling.
2. smaller units command better facing than bigger units in the same block. notice a few projects whereby smaller units have nice pool view compared to 3 bedders.
3. kitchens are not for cooking, for show nia.
4. kitchens and dining are the first things to be seen when one enters the house. a very big no no in terms of fengshui. also kitchen cabinets that are supposed to be used for plates, utensils etc are being used for washing machine. very bad FS indeed. water and fire lagi chiong.
5. space so small, samma open concept kitchen.
6. main doors are very close to neighbour's.
7. rubbish chute all outside the unit
8. bathrooms are very small. everything feel very claustrophobic even for a
'3 bedder'.

i think developer should stop blaming the cooling measures for the lackluster sales. Gone are the days whereby buyers will buy almost anything developers are selling. Developers should refocus instead on the fundamentals -giving buyers value for money units in terms of space, functionality and price, sales should go up again.

Stop selling TOY houses and start selling REAL houses.

Developers will only start building bigger unit or less compact unit when prices drop low enough such that for the same price, one can now buy some decent homes instead of compact units.

Whether the day will come very much depends on we the consumers. Hopefully, potential buyers can take this opportunity (with TDSR still in force) to come to sense with what is happening in the market and stop being exploited by developers.

teddybear
05-05-14, 14:44
The problem is not absolute size!
The problem is with super big balconies and air-con ledges and bay-windows and planter areas!

If developers get banned from building super useless to near useless / unimportant areas (or can't sell as SALEABLE SPACE to buyers), even a 1000 sqft 3Bedder condos (like the old ones) is still liveable!


Developers will only start building bigger unit or less compact unit when prices drop low enough such that for the same price, one can now buy some decent homes instead of compact units.

Whether the day will come very much depends on we the consumers. Hopefully, potential buyers can take this opportunity (with TDSR still in force) to come to sense with what is happening in the market and stop being exploited by developers.

minority
05-05-14, 15:06
The problem is not absolute size!
The problem is with super big balconies and air-con ledges and bay-windows and planter areas!

If developers get banned from building super useless to near useless / unimportant areas (or can't sell as SALEABLE SPACE to buyers), even a 1000 sqft 3Bedder condos (like the old ones) is still liveable!

why stop at absolute size? why don't ask for absolute price also? Since you are asking.

Kelonguni
05-05-14, 17:45
The problem is not absolute size!
The problem is with super big balconies and air-con ledges and bay-windows and planter areas!

If developers get banned from building super useless to near useless / unimportant areas (or can't sell as SALEABLE SPACE to buyers), even a 1000 sqft 3Bedder condos (like the old ones) is still liveable!

Developers take on their risks which are of quite a different nature.

We have the following options:

1. Look away from properties. There are at least a dozen other investment types available that is highly liquid and stable.

2. Opt for overseas properties where land / labour and materials are much more affordable to build huge and cheap properties.

3. Opt for already built or older properties that satisfies your requirements. You can inspect and ensure that the A/C ledge and bay windows do not exceed your tolerance level. If the price is higher, rightfully so, since much more psf is usable. Boycott the local developments that do not meet your criteria.

It is a willing-buyer-willing-seller market. Not everything should be regulated.

Komo
05-05-14, 18:04
poorer and poorer quality control.
workmanship at all time low.
this is unforgiveable. Owners are the big losers and suffer from day 1

teddybear
05-05-14, 18:35
However, the problem with super BIG balconies, planter areas, and baywindows is a results of govt's introduced regulations!
If they didn't give free GFA for these specific areas, would the developers resort to building super BIG balconies, planter areas, and baywindows?
As the Chinese saying goes: to untie the bell needs the one who tie the bell! :p



Developers take on their risks which are of quite a different nature.

We have the following options:

1. Look away from properties. There are at least a dozen other investment types available that is highly liquid and stable.

2. Opt for overseas properties where land / labour and materials are much more affordable to build huge and cheap properties.

3. Opt for already built or older properties that satisfies your requirements. You can inspect and ensure that the A/C ledge and bay windows do not exceed your tolerance level. If the price is higher, rightfully so, since much more psf is usable. Boycott the local developments that do not meet your criteria.

It is a willing-buyer-willing-seller market. Not everything should be regulated.


The problem is not absolute size!
The problem is with super big balconies and air-con ledges and bay-windows and planter areas!

If developers get banned from building super useless to near useless / unimportant areas (or can't sell as SALEABLE SPACE to buyers), even a 1000 sqft 3Bedder condos (like the old ones) is still liveable!

Kelonguni
05-05-14, 19:07
However, the problem with super BIG balconies, planter areas, and baywindows is a results of govt's introduced regulations!
If they didn't give free GFA for these specific areas, would the developers resort to building super BIG balconies, planter areas, and baywindows?
As the Chinese saying goes: to untie the bell needs the one who tie the bell! :p


http://www.ura.gov.sg/uol/circulars/2008/jul/dc08-17.aspx

was there a revision to GFA computation? Please feel free to correct.

walkthetiger
05-05-14, 20:18
However, the problem with super BIG balconies, planter areas, and baywindows is a results of govt's introduced regulations!
If they didn't give free GFA for these specific areas, would the developers resort to building super BIG balconies, planter areas, and baywindows?
As the Chinese saying goes: to untie the bell needs the one who tie the bell! :p

It is the "balancing" thing between the developers and the people wishes. Years back, there were things given to developers to help them in someway, but slowly all contributed to the things we see it now. Surely, developers will claim that those designs are for the people, as not to forget that even rubbish was selling very well. But now, if this is really not what the people want and we are sure about it, then now should be good time to voice it out thru proper channel to URA, giving them the reasons and enlighten them as well. But, still the decision belongs to them.

teddybear
05-05-14, 20:45
BCA/URA still give 10% more free GFA to developers for building super big balconies that they can sell to buyers! :tsk-tsk:
Some of the balconies are even bigger than a bedroom!


http://www.ura.gov.sg/uol/circulars/2008/jul/dc08-17.aspx

was there a revision to GFA computation? Please feel free to correct.

Kelonguni
05-05-14, 20:58
BCA/URA still give 10% more free GFA to developers for building super big balconies that they can sell to buyers! :tsk-tsk:
Some of the balconies are even bigger than a bedroom!

I might have misread but the circular seems to indicate that for projects approved after 2008 Oct, all these ledges, planters, bay windows and balconies were to be computed as part of GFA?

teddybear
05-05-14, 21:04
I am quite sure balconies 10% GFA is FREE to developers!
Don't believe? Tell URA/BCA to stop that 10% FREE GFA for balconies AND you will stop seeing those OBSCENE super BIG balconies in new launch condos! :hell-hath-no-fury:


I might have misread but the circular seems to indicate that for projects approved after 2008 Oct, all these ledges, planters, bay windows and balconies were to be computed as part of GFA?

Kelonguni
05-05-14, 21:07
BCA/URA still give 10% more free GFA to developers for building super big balconies that they can sell to buyers! :tsk-tsk:
Some of the balconies are even bigger than a bedroom!

Or maybe balconies are still exempt. Hmm... But they stated it as bonus, but maybe included in bidding calculations. This is not easy to resolve.

Kelonguni
05-05-14, 21:11
I am quite sure balconies 10% GFA is FREE to developers!
Don't believe? Tell URA/BCA to stop that 10% FREE GFA for balconies AND you will stop seeing those OBSCENE super BIG balconies in new launch condos! :hell-hath-no-fury:

Relax. My invested units all no balconies so I can't really see this. In that case there may be a point to include balconies in gfa. Or to reduce the bonus to 5% or 3%.

hopeful
05-05-14, 21:54
I am quite sure balconies 10% GFA is FREE to developers!
Don't believe? Tell URA/BCA to stop that 10% FREE GFA for balconies AND you will stop seeing those OBSCENE super BIG balconies in new launch condos! :hell-hath-no-fury:


http://www.ura.gov.sg/uol/circulars/2008/jul/dc08-17.aspx

was there a revision to GFA computation? Please feel free to correct.

i think there is a misconception about 10% free GFA and GFA exemption.

as i understand it:

GFA exemption is like AC ledge. if not more than certain width, than it is GFA exempted. the AC can be extended over the entire perimete, no limit as long it dont exceed certain width.

as for the free GFA, it depends on what scheme developer want to use. however the maximum free GFA is capped at 10%.
http://www.ura.gov.sg/uol/circulars/2009/apr/dc09-03.aspx
there are quite a number of free GFA schemes listed
(eg. balconies in residential and hotel developments; lighting in Central Business District (CBD) and Marina Centre; and art installations in Orchard, CBD and Marina Centre).


if developer use the balcony bonus gfa scheme, then it will be affected by the following rulings
http://www.ura.gov.sg/uol/circulars/2008/jul/dc08-17.aspx
we are going to see more PBU and dry walls then.

link for art installation free GFA
http://www.ura.gov.sg/uol/circulars/2009/apr/dc09-06.aspx
after some memory digging and googling
http://www.scottssquare.com/cms/uploads/pressreleases/30/03082006.pdf
scotts square have the free GFA via URA arts incentives.

Kelonguni
05-05-14, 22:32
Thanks for the clarification. It means that buyers can and should watch out for these features in the development that they intend to buy.

I think developers can deliberately exceed the width to count ledges in the GFA computation? Very wicked indeed. Is my interpretation correct or possible?



i think there is a misconception about 10% free GFA and GFA exemption.

as i understand it:

GFA exemption is like AC ledge. if not more than certain width, than it is GFA exempted. the AC can be extended over the entire perimete, no limit as long it dont exceed certain width.

as for the free GFA, it depends on what scheme developer want to use. however the maximum free GFA is capped at 10%.
http://www.ura.gov.sg/uol/circulars/2009/apr/dc09-03.aspx
there are quite a number of free GFA schemes listed
(eg. balconies in residential and hotel developments; lighting in Central Business District (CBD) and Marina Centre; and art installations in Orchard, CBD and Marina Centre).


if developer use the balcony bonus gfa scheme, then it will be affected by the following rulings
http://www.ura.gov.sg/uol/circulars/2008/jul/dc08-17.aspx
we are going to see more PBU and dry walls then.

link for art installation free GFA
http://www.ura.gov.sg/uol/circulars/2009/apr/dc09-06.aspx
after some memory digging and googling
http://www.scottssquare.com/cms/uploads/pressreleases/30/03082006.pdf
scotts square have the free GFA via URA arts incentives.

minority
05-05-14, 23:26
Thanks for the clarification. It means that buyers can and should watch out for these features in the development that they intend to buy.

I think developers can deliberately exceed the width to count ledges in the GFA computation? Very wicked indeed. Is my interpretation correct or possible?

Always learn to read a floor plan. and as buy must read the material specs at the back too. not just look at the nice nice show room. I always like a balcony coz its nice to be outside sometime. but should not compromise too much living space like what some developer did.

anyway don't like the design. let the legs do the walking. no 1 force anyone to buy.

Kelonguni
06-05-14, 07:15
Always learn to read a floor plan. and as buy must read the material specs at the back too. not just look at the nice showroom. I always like a balcony coz its nice to be outside sometime. but should not compromise too much living space like what some developer did.

anyway don't like the design. let the legs do the walking. no 1 force anyone to buy.

I would like to have a balcony too. Despite moving house numerous times, I have never had the chance to live in one that has a balcony. Don't know whether lucky or unlucky.

minority
06-05-14, 07:53
I would like to have a balcony too. Despite moving house numerous times, I have never had the chance to live in one that has a balcony. Don't know whether lucky or unlucky.

Well actually its quite nice to read the papers on the balcony with a cupa coffee in the morning. but some the overall design need to be pleasant. I think balcony is a + to a unit. not the central focus of getting a unit.

teddybear
06-05-14, 08:12
That is because your units are small?
Those big units > 2000 sqft sure have balconies ones because it symbolizes "luxury"..............
Those small units < 1000 sqft have BIG balconies in order to ensure the "mickey-mouseness" of their bedrooms?! :doh:


I would like to have a balcony too. Despite moving house numerous times, I have never had the chance to live in one that has a balcony. Don't know whether lucky or unlucky.

Kelonguni
06-05-14, 08:34
That is because your units are small?
Those big units > 2000 sqft sure have balconies ones because it symbolizes "luxury"..............
Those small units < 1000 sqft have BIG balconies in order to ensure the "mickey-mouseness" of their bedrooms?! :doh:

Haha... No balconies that I live in include landed lah.

Funny logic you have. Big, sure have balcony, small have BIG balcony.

teddybear
06-05-14, 08:40
Landed? Easy lah, just built out one if you like........ :D
We are talking about condos here.......................................
In the past, before URA/BCA start giving out 10% free GFA for building balconies, small units all don't have balconies,
AND only big units that is supposed to be "luxurious" like penthouses have balconies regardless of URA/BCA give 10% free GFA for balconies or not.
Only after URA/BCA back-side itchy introduce such laws then you see Mickey-mouse units also have balconies and their balconies are bigger than the Master-bedrooms! :doh:



Haha... No balconies that I live in include landed lah.

Funny logic you have. Big, sure have balcony, small have BIG balcony.

Kelonguni
06-05-14, 08:43
Landed?Easy lah, just built out one if you like........ :D
We are talking about condos here...............................
In the past, before URA/BCA start giving out 10% free GFA for building balconies, small units all don't have balconies,
AND only big units that is supposed to be "luxurious" like penthouses have balconies regardless of URA/BCA give 10% free GFA for balconies or not.
Only after URA/BCA back-side itchy introduce such laws then you see Mickey-mouse units also have balconies and their balconies are bigger than the Master-bedrooms! :doh:

Also have apartments lah. Just don't happen to have the experience lor. No need to be judgemental. You have not seen condo without one?

hopeful
06-05-14, 09:04
Thanks for the clarification. It means that buyers can and should watch out for these features in the development that they intend to buy.

I think developers can deliberately exceed the width to count ledges in the GFA computation? Very wicked indeed. Is my interpretation correct or possible?

your interpretation is wrong.

there are several kind of areas.
land area
gross floor area (=land area x plot ratio)
gfa + 10%
strata area
the sizes of strata > gfa + 10% > gfa > land.

developers are buying land area but selling strata area

a simple example.
lets say total size of GFA is 100.000sqft.
if developer exceed width of AC ledge, that means the AC ledge is part of GFA, which means the strata title developer sell is 100.000sqft.


now if AC ledge is withing certain width, then the AC ledge is GFA exempted, however the developer can sell it to you as part of strata title.
so developer sell strata title = 100.000sqft + AC ledge.

so as to maximise profits, developer keep AC ledge within certain width (GFA exempted) and maximise area (by lengthening) of AC ledge.

2824
06-05-14, 09:24
The air con ledge and balcony issue appears to be due to the amount of regulation and developer trying to stay 1 step ahead.

Think is best to go back to basic, just specify the gfa and let developers build what they want and maybe u find ac ledges and balconies normalise.

Kelonguni
06-05-14, 09:25
I see... Thanks for the insight and clear example. Now I have a better understanding of how the whole thing works.

In that case, I do wonder if it is better if developers specify the total floor area of usable space versus the add-on spaces.

Thanks hopeful.


your interpretation is wrong.

there are several kind of areas.
land area
gross floor area (=land area x plot ratio)
gfa + 10%
strata area
the sizes of strata > gfa + 10% > gfa > land.

developers are buying land area but selling strata area

a simple example.
lets say total size of GFA is 100.000sqft.
if developer exceed width of AC ledge, that means the AC ledge is part of GFA, which means the strata title developer sell is 100.000sqft.


now if AC ledge is withing certain width, then the AC ledge is GFA exempted, however the developer can sell it to you as part of strata title.
so developer sell strata title = 100.000sqft + AC ledge.

so as to maximise profits, developer keep AC ledge within certain width (GFA exempted) and maximise area (by lengthening) of AC ledge.

hopeful
06-05-14, 09:57
a previous example of how developer game the system.

from aristo thread.
http://forums.condosingapore.com/showpost.php?p=443873&postcount=1162

the baywindow is partially overlapping the planter area.
i suspect that the developer is charging for both the baywindow and planter area. hence strata area may looks big, but the actual area of the unit is small.

teddybear
06-05-14, 10:49
My big units got balconies, my small units those before free 10% GFA for balconies got no balconies................................ :D


Also have apartments lah. Just don't happen to have the experience lor. No need to be judgemental. You have not seen condo without one?

teddybear
06-05-14, 10:51
So simple, yet so many people including people at BCA/URA got no clue and introduce laws for developers to exploit to get more profit at the expense of buyers?

Some stupid idiots will say, you don't like the design don't buy loh!
however, if every estate every units built are like that because of some stupid regulations/laws introduced, the buyers got choice?
The simplest solution to resolve common complaints of usable sizes so small is to remove the 10% free GFA for balconies and the exempt of air-con ledges! :rolleyes:

go back to early 1990s, no change is better than change if the change resulted in worse than for the better!


your interpretation is wrong.

there are several kind of areas.
land area
gross floor area (=land area x plot ratio)
gfa + 10%
strata area
the sizes of strata > gfa + 10% > gfa > land.

developers are buying land area but selling strata area

a simple example.
lets say total size of GFA is 100.000sqft.
if developer exceed width of AC ledge, that means the AC ledge is part of GFA, which means the strata title developer sell is 100.000sqft.


now if AC ledge is withing certain width, then the AC ledge is GFA exempted, however the developer can sell it to you as part of strata title.
so developer sell strata title = 100.000sqft + AC ledge.

so as to maximise profits, developer keep AC ledge within certain width (GFA exempted) and maximise area (by lengthening) of AC ledge.

minority
06-05-14, 11:27
So simple, yet so many people including people at BCA/URA got no clue and introduce laws for developers to exploit to get more profit at the expense of buyers?

Some stupid idiots will say, you don't like the design don't buy loh!
however, if every estate every units built are like that because of some stupid regulations/laws introduced, the buyers got choice?
The simplest solution to resolve common complaints of usable sizes so small is to remove the 10% free GFA for balconies and the exempt of air-con ledges! :rolleyes:

go back to early 1990s, no change is better than change if the change resulted in worse than for the better!

don't buy new lor. go get older units no balcony big size then? if u want to buy then want to complain. did anyone point a gun at your head? :scared-5::scared-5::scared-5:

Kelonguni
06-05-14, 11:40
don't buy new lor. go get older units no balcony big size then? if u want to buy then want to complain. did anyone point a gun at your head? :scared-5::scared-5::scared-5:

His issue is complex. Because buyers are going for new units that on paper are of the same sizes as his old units but usable space are smaller but psf higher and quality poorer. This limits the psf price of what he is holding. I understand his angst.

walkthetiger
06-05-14, 11:46
So simple, yet so many people including people at BCA/URA got no clue and introduce laws for developers to exploit to get more profit at the expense of buyers?

Some stupid idiots will say, you don't like the design don't buy loh!
however, if every estate every units built are like that because of some stupid regulations/laws introduced, the buyers got choice?
The simplest solution to resolve common complaints of usable sizes so small is to remove the 10% free GFA for balconies and the exempt of air-con ledges! :rolleyes:

go back to early 1990s, no change is better than change if the change resulted in worse than for the better!


..happy to see that common senses are coming back to the people.... if all voiced the same years back... all of you should not have suffer for this long and this much.....

hopeful
06-05-14, 12:19
So simple, yet so many people including people at BCA/URA got no clue and introduce laws for developers to exploit to get more profit at the expense of buyers?
......

u sure they have no clue?
do you know where URA planners are now?

an eg.
before in URA
http://forums.condosingapore.com/showthread.php?t=19236

2months later in FEO.
http://www.asiabuilders.com/asiabuilders/NewsSingle.aspx?rec_code=107108&ind_ctry_code=conSG

how come there is no regulation prohibiting an industry regulator joinning the industry he was regulating.
perhaps a cooling off period of a few years is desirable.

this may soon be like wall street & sec rotating doors, it isnt already so.

amk
06-05-14, 12:31
u sure they have no clue?...


hey you have enough fun already ? ;)

.... in reality it is most unfortunate that many buyers themselves do not realize the full free GFA story. In some other thread I posted a simple example that shows, without this "free GFA", you as buyer will not be able to buy a "1000 sqft condo at 1mil only cheap cheap". Do not blame URA/BCA or even developers for this. The truth is you as buyer buy this with this massive balcony, and complains about "so much unusable area", whereas if without such balcony, you will not be able to afford this condo and can only complain something else. You do get what you wish for. Free GFA is not evil. People are gullible. This is how market makes money from people.

walkthetiger
06-05-14, 13:01
hey you have enough fun already ? ;)

.... in reality it is most unfortunate that many buyers themselves do not realize the full free GFA story. In some other thread I posted a simple example that shows, without this "free GFA", you as buyer will not be able to buy a "1000 sqft condo at 1mil only cheap cheap". Do not blame URA/BCA or even developers for this. The truth is you as buyer buy this with this massive balcony, and complains about "so much unusable area", whereas if without such balcony, you will not be able to afford this condo and can only complain something else. You do get what you wish for. Free GFA is not evil. People are gullible. This is how market makes money from people.

The excitement had caused buyers to commit, many people here also helped them to feel so excited about property.....remember... no end to point finger....

Everything that had happened caused the result now..money earned, you can't take it back now.....

Move on, and do what it can now to help the people...

boonlaysg
06-05-14, 13:06
I think instead of suggesting that developers are doing us a BIG favour by giving the buyers a BIG balcony so that they can sell to us at a lower price; it makes more sense to say that (gullible) buyers are doing the developers a BIG favour by paying for the massive profits of developers who bidded excessively for the land and who have no qualms in extracting maximum mileage from every square footage at the expense of the buyer's quality of life.

teddybear
06-05-14, 13:07
So URA/BCA help developers to give buyers "false hope" that they can afford that "1000 sqft" condo that in reality is only <800 sqft usable space and they are unlikely to buy if they know this fact? :simmering:

How about instead of giving 10% free GFA for building balconies, URA/BCA should give 10% free GFA for every bedroom that is greater than 120 sqft for them to ensure that developers will no longer build bedrooms only fit for Mickey-Mouse to live in and yet make these "1000 sqft" condos super affordable and super luxuriously spacious now? :p


hey you have enough fun already ? ;)

.... in reality it is most unfortunate that many buyers themselves do not realize the full free GFA story. In some other thread I posted a simple example that shows, without this "free GFA", you as buyer will not be able to buy a "1000 sqft condo at 1mil only cheap cheap". Do not blame URA/BCA or even developers for this. The truth is you as buyer buy this with this massive balcony, and complains about "so much unusable area", whereas if without such balcony, you will not be able to afford this condo and can only complain something else. You do get what you wish for. Free GFA is not evil. People are gullible. This is how market makes money from people.

hopeful
06-05-14, 13:34
hey you have enough fun already ? ;)

.... in reality it is most unfortunate that many buyers themselves do not realize the full free GFA story. In some other thread I posted a simple example that shows, without this "free GFA", you as buyer will not be able to buy a "1000 sqft condo at 1mil only cheap cheap". Do not blame URA/BCA or even developers for this. The truth is you as buyer buy this with this massive balcony, and complains about "so much unusable area", whereas if without such balcony, you will not be able to afford this condo and can only complain something else. You do get what you wish for. Free GFA is not evil. People are gullible. This is how market makes money from people.

aiyah, why u kill the mood? ;)

cannot find your example.
anyway, lets say a condo is 900sqft and 100sqft balcony, cost $1million, so psf is 1000psf.
if no more 10% free GFA, then developer only built 900sqft condo, still price at $1million, psf is $1111.
so in this situation, better to have the condo at 900sqft and 100sqft balcony, same price, bigger area ?

eversince the exemption for baywindow and planters was removed, do developers continue to built BW and planters (exception of planter as extension of balcony)?
a quick glance at floorplans shows no BWs.

what if URA banned the 10% free GFA.
developer A built huge balconies, developer B built all usable area. same plot ratio.
buyers have a choice to buy balcony or non-balcony units.
then that is getting what we wish for.
(my opinion is fully usable area condo would be more popular even if it cost more).

and not like the current situation where purchasers of every new condo are imposed the balcony and ac ledge (like teddy said). and the only choices left is to buy old condos.

a quick question since u in banking/finance:
can a head honcho from MinFin/MAS joined banking/finance industry without any cooling-off period?

minority
06-05-14, 14:00
hey you have enough fun already ? ;)

.... in reality it is most unfortunate that many buyers themselves do not realize the full free GFA story. In some other thread I posted a simple example that shows, without this "free GFA", you as buyer will not be able to buy a "1000 sqft condo at 1mil only cheap cheap". Do not blame URA/BCA or even developers for this. The truth is you as buyer buy this with this massive balcony, and complains about "so much unusable area", whereas if without such balcony, you will not be able to afford this condo and can only complain something else. You do get what you wish for. Free GFA is not evil. People are gullible. This is how market makes money from people.

good one!......

walkthetiger
06-05-14, 16:09
aiyah, why u kill the mood? ;)

cannot find your example.
anyway, lets say a condo is 900sqft and 100sqft balcony, cost $1million, so psf is 1000psf.
if no more 10% free GFA, then developer only built 900sqft condo, still price at $1million, psf is $1111.
so in this situation, better to have the condo at 900sqft and 100sqft balcony, same price, bigger area ?

eversince the exemption for baywindow and planters was removed, do developers continue to built BW and planters (exception of planter as extension of balcony)?
a quick glance at floorplans shows no BWs.

what if URA banned the 10% free GFA.
developer A built huge balconies, developer B built all usable area. same plot ratio.
buyers have a choice to buy balcony or non-balcony units.
then that is getting what we wish for.
(my opinion is fully usable area condo would be more popular even if it cost more).

and not like the current situation where purchasers of every new condo are imposed the balcony and ac ledge (like teddy said). and the only choices left is to buy old condos.

a quick question since u in banking/finance:
can a head honcho from MinFin/MAS joined banking/finance industry without any cooling-off period?

Months ago, I did mention that property will be going back to when it should be, now I see people asking rule to revert...haha.

No need to point finger, as it can't end like this..... Buyers, Developers, Gov, Agents and etc were all involved directly or indirect...It is just a part of the cycle.

minority
06-05-14, 16:43
n people scream I want big unit. want big balcony want low psf.! u know I know that won't happen.

Yuki
06-05-14, 20:19
Months ago, I did mention that property will be going back to when it should be, now I see people asking rule to revert...haha.

No need to point finger, as it can't end like this..... Buyers, Developers, Gov, Agents and etc were all involved directly or indirect...It is just a part of the cycle.

Hi..as a veteran in such..to have underwent a few property cycles...can share how was it like in the past?

walkthetiger
06-05-14, 22:52
Hi..as a veteran in such..to have underwent a few property cycles...can share how was it like in the past?

...just ask what will happen next...haha...be prepared to see this deadlock will not end so soon...