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http://propertysoul.com/2016/04/05/uncertain-times/
Property investment in uncertain times
April 5, 2016
Last Sunday was my third time speaking at the SMART Investment & International Property Expo (http://www.smartexpos.com/2016/AprSG/timetable.php). It was very touching to see so many of my blog followers and readers there. Thank you!
The unbearable uncertainty of being
When the organizer asked me to talk about ‘Property Investment in Uncertain Times’, I thought it was a great topic.
You see they can say property investment ‘in a slow market’, ‘during a market downturn’, or ‘when the market is bottoming out’. But I prefer the word ‘uncertain’. It implies that we are all facing uncertainty now.
Many believe that the worst has yet to come. My sixth sense tells me that we are brewing a perfect storm, similar to 1996 after the introduction of anti-speculation measures, the Asian Financial Crisis struck.
Just over the weekend, Donald Trump said US is heading for a massive recession. It is just a question of when. But they will support the stock market by hook or by crook until the US Election in November, aren’t they? And from now till then, who knows what will happen.
Sometimes things happen when people least expect it. Sometimes nothing happen when everyone expect it to come. Maybe there is nothing disastrous on its way. But that strong sentiment of uncertainty is enough to hold property buyers back; lengthen the see-saw negotiations between buyers and sellers; make banks more conservative in approving loans; and continue that boring quarterly reports of 0.5 percent to 1 percent price drop that might linger for years.
Being defensive in uncertain times
When I was about to touch on strategies in uncertain times, I noticed that more people were joining the audience. The 70 seats had already filled up and late comers had to stand behind.
“Property investment strategy in the Year of the Monkey is defensive rather than aggressive. The most important thing this year is not return. It is avoid losing money. Less is more. Risk less and fail less.’
– Property Soul, Let 4 traits of monkeys tell you properties in the monkey year (http://propertysoul.com/2016/02/18/properties-in-monkey-year/)
There are four reasons why adopting a defensive strategy is critical during uncertain times:
Reason 1: It’s risky to buy when prices are dropping.
Never buy on the way down. You never know what’s going to happen next. You don’t want to buy today and see prices drop tomorrow. And no one can tell when the drop is going to stop.
A safe strategy for amateur buyers is to enter the market only when prices are picking up. A popular strategy of savvy investors is to enter the market when they foresee that the market will be recovering soon.
Reason 2: It’s painful to get stuck with a wrong investment.
Unlike stocks, real estate is an illiquid asset. You can dump your stock the next moment. But the process of selling your property can take months or years depending on when you can seal the deal.
If you buy at the wrong time at the wrong price, it can take many years to breakeven. The URA Property Price Index only shows the average price of all caveats lodged, but magically hides all the deviations. Many people who bought during the last peak of the market in the mid-1990s took almost 20 years to breakeven.
While your cash is all tied up with an overpriced property, you wish you could have the means to buy during the low of a property cycle. Not only are you paying the price of buying at the wrong price, you are also paying the opportunity cost by failing to grab the good deals in a buyer’s market.
Reason 3: Prices can drop more than rent paid or collected.
Don’t complain that you have been paying rent for years while waiting for prices to come down. If you are renting for $3,000 a month, you are only paying $36,000 a year and $108,000 in 3 years.
If you bought a $1 million property, with its value down 10 percent you would have lost $100,000. This is on top of all the stamp duties, legal fee, mortgage interest, management fee, property tax, renovation and repair costs. Did’t you just negotiate with your landlord for a 20 percent cut to renew one more year for your tenancy?
I hope your landlord have bought the place a long time ago and have already paid off much of the mortgage. Otherwise the humble rent collected from you may be barely enough to cover the expenses. A gradual decline of the property’s value can also wipe up whatever rental return collected in the past few years.
Compared with your landlord, you choose to put your $1 million in a fixed deposit account with 2 percent interest. You have done nothing but safely collect $20,000 every year to subsidize half of your rent. So what do you have to complain about?
Don’t let hotspots become hot potatoes
As the back was getting crowded, people started standing on the empty spaces on both sides of the seminar area. Exhibitors from nearby booths also came to see why this only female speaker of the 2-day seminar was drawing a crowd here.
I repeated what I have emphasized during my presentation at the Properties in Year of the Monkey networking luncheon (http://www.propertyclubsg.com/properties-in-year-of-the-monkey/)in January – the five things to avoid buying in 2016:
• Properties that promise unrealistic returns.
• Properties that you can’t really afford.
• Properties with no distinctive advantages.
• Properties with obvious problems.
• Properties selling at market price.
As expected, many snapped a picture with their mobile phones on the slide “Where to find good deals?”. I took three questions from the audience and the time was up.
After I walked down the stage, some from the audience continued to ask questions. The organizer reminded us to move elsewhere to clear the way for the next session. I suggested to go to the MPH booth to continue the Q&As since they were selling my book No B.S. Guide to Property Investment (http://propertyclubsg.com/resources)there.
We ended up using the table and chair in the booth for autographs and selfies. I haven’t done this for a while after the book was launched almost two years ago. I was really grateful that I still could sign eleven books in total.
When I got home, my daughter came over to me with her homework. She pointed at the parent’s signature stamp and said,
“Sign here.”
“No, hold your book like this. Look at me with your anxious eyes and ask politely, ‘Could I have your autograph please?'”
“Certainly,” she replied with a wink.
It is insane to compare property investment to stocks. The investors' purposes are different too.
http://propertysoul.com/2016/04/05/uncertain-times/
1• Properties that promise unrealistic returns.
2• Properties that you can’t really afford.
3• Properties with no distinctive advantages.
4• Properties with obvious problems.
5• Properties selling at market price.
Actually she has made several good and valid points but the whole article is shrouded by a lot of personal anecdotes, distractions and false misdirections. I will try to break it down to discuss.
Firstly, properties found in points 1 to 4 are either severely overpriced or poor quality properties (for example very old where maintenance is higher than possible rent by a huge margin). They should be avoided in all markets unless one has a very good plan for them (en bloc, rebuild, own stay for good reasons etc).
A property that does not meet all the 4 points (meaning it is a good quality property) selling at discount to market price is a safe and good buy. Currently, there are many properties that meet this criteria. That's why I wonder why she advocates not sourcing for these discounted properties but rather to refrain instead. What is the market price point she is referring to?
If the last seven years' property prices hasn't convinced one of the defensive nature of property, what will?
Even for the cases where prices have "dropped" relative to 2009 or 2013 levels, many or a huge majority of the sellers still gain in comparison to their buying prices provided they did not buy any of the properties in the first four groups mentioned.
To assess whether we are anywhere heading towards the worst of scenarios, just need to look at COE prices in Singapore. Yes, it might still trend downwards with further increases in quota, but can we honestly think they will go back to 2009-2010 levels of under 20K?
Everybody (including Donald Trump) is expecting a recession and holding back. The real question is what happens if the prolonged recession never really comes in a big way?
Continuous quarterly value dips of between 0.5 to 1% translates to 3% drop in a year. Fully absorbable by rent. Just lose interest, but note that when it recovers, it can be higher than 3% in a year as well. How many years of continuous dips are we looking at with household incomes continuing to rise? I have also seen value increases in specific properties as well so it goes a little back to what one buys.
[URL="http://propertysoul.com/2016/04/05/uncertain-times/"]The unbearable uncertainty of being[/B]
When the organizer asked me to talk about ‘Property Investment in Uncertain Times’, I thought it was a great topic.
You see they can say property investment ‘in a slow market’, ‘during a market downturn’, or ‘when the market is bottoming out’. But I prefer the word ‘uncertain’. It implies that we are all facing uncertainty now.
Many believe that the worst has yet to come. My sixth sense tells me that we are brewing a perfect storm, similar to 1996 after the introduction of anti-speculation measures, the Asian Financial Crisis struck.
Just over the weekend, Donald Trump said US is heading for a massive recession. It is just a question of when. But they will support the stock market by hook or by crook until the US Election in November, aren’t they? And from now till then, who knows what will happen.
Sometimes things happen when people least expect it. Sometimes nothing happen when everyone expect it to come. Maybe there is nothing disastrous on its way. But that strong sentiment of uncertainty is enough to hold property buyers back; lengthen the see-saw negotiations between buyers and sellers; make banks more conservative in approving loans; and continue that boring quarterly reports of 0.5 percent to 1 percent price drop that might linger for years.
Being defensive in uncertain times
I only read 3 reasons instead of 4.
Reason 1. Hindsight is always 20/20. As you mentioned, we are in uncertain territory. The Govt CMs has reserved a buffer of 20% upside and 20% downside in my opinion, and we have no idea which part of the cycle we should be in right now in a free market. When prices are picking up, that also seems to be a period when the best properties (that buyers and investors prefer) have already been snapped up. There is a tradeoff, but as we observed, this is the right time for buyers (own stay with specific requirements) but maybe not yet (and almost there) for pure investors.
Reason 2. Unlike real estate, stocks can be dumped pretty fast and values can plummet 30% in a week, presenting some buying opportunities but lots of hair loss and lots of lost sleep. And the last we checked, it IS a buyer's market right now. Maybe but maybe not the lowest buyer's market yet but most will agree it is close. Note that construction costs are due for a rise once the economies take off.
Reason 3. I am not sure if you are advocating for rental instead of ownership. If that is the case, I will recommend HDB ownership instead. Paying rent of $3K monthly over 5 years translate to 180K, excluding repairs under $100 multiple times, and subject to landlords' whims and desires, and maybe multiple times of house moving, agent commission and lease stamping, not to mention the possibility of rent rises a couple of years later. A HDB will be preferred - 60-99 years leasehold at maybe double (outskirts) to triple (more central) of the 5-year rental only.
[URL="http://propertysoul.com/2016/04/05/uncertain-times/"]
Reason 1: It’s risky to buy when prices are dropping.
Never buy on the way down. You never know what’s going to happen next. You don’t want to buy today and see prices drop tomorrow. And no one can tell when the drop is going to stop.
A safe strategy for amateur buyers is to enter the market only when prices are picking up. A popular strategy of savvy investors is to enter the market when they foresee that the market will be recovering soon.
Reason 2: It’s painful to get stuck with a wrong investment.
Unlike stocks, real estate is an illiquid asset. You can dump your stock the next moment. But the process of selling your property can take months or years depending on when you can seal the deal.
If you buy at the wrong time at the wrong price, it can take many years to breakeven. The URA Property Price Index only shows the average price of all caveats lodged, but magically hides all the deviations. Many people who bought during the last peak of the market in the mid-1990s took almost 20 years to breakeven.
While your cash is all tied up with an overpriced property, you wish you could have the means to buy during the low of a property cycle. Not only are you paying the price of buying at the wrong price, you are also paying the opportunity cost by failing to grab the good deals in a buyer’s market.
Reason 3: Prices can drop more than rent paid or collected.
Don’t complain that you have been paying rent for years while waiting for prices to come down. If you are renting for $3,000 a month, you are only paying $36,000 a year and $108,000 in 3 years.
If you bought a $1 million property, with its value down 10 percent you would have lost $100,000. This is on top of all the stamp duties, legal fee, mortgage interest, management fee, property tax, renovation and repair costs. Did’t you just negotiate with your landlord for a 20 percent cut to renew one more year for your tenancy?
I hope your landlord have bought the place a long time ago and have already paid off much of the mortgage. Otherwise the humble rent collected from you may be barely enough to cover the expenses. A gradual decline of the property’s value can also wipe up whatever rental return collected in the past few years.
Compared with your landlord, you choose to put your $1 million in a fixed deposit account with 2 percent interest. You have done nothing but safely collect $20,000 every year to subsidize half of your rent. So what do you have to complain about?
Master Kelonguni, you are more than a property consultant. I Salute you.
Master Kelonguni, you are more than a property consultant. I Salute you.
Master Citizen, VIP is the property consultant. She holds talks, and writes and signs books. I am just an academic observer.
Lets the rest of the readers judge. Either out of touch or denial.
I concur with her that property is no touch now, particularly OCR private properties.............
We will see who is in out of touch and/or in denial........ :surprise:
It is clear to me that the property cooling measures caused the down fall of the property prices that will drag on for a long time.........
Lets the rest of the readers judge. Either out of touch or denial.
Simple test eg sell your house and use the money to buy stocks.
Short term - see whether the money you gain from stocks can cover your rental?
Long term - see whether the money you gain from stocks can buy back similar unit you sold? Please tell us any other investments which can beat property and majority gain from it? Please don't name Peter lim, warren Buffett etc
Where to invest your money for better return is for you to find out........
People are already kind enough to sound the warning, but they do not owe you a living to give you the fish nor teach you how to fish................
Simple test eg sell your house and use the money to buy stocks.
Short term - see whether the money you gain from stocks can cover your rental?
Long term - see whether the money you gain from stocks can buy back similar unit you sold? Please tell us any other investments which can beat property and majority gain from it? Please don't name Peter lim, warren Buffett etc
Where to invest your money for better return is for you to find out........
People are already kind enough to sound the warning, but they do not owe you a living to give you the fish nor teach you how to fish................
If it is sincere why can't point it out but why can work so hard to tell property investment no good. She didn't owe it to us either? "Kind enough" to mislead.
Just like the judge said you are guilty but you have to find out yourself. He just knew you are guilty. Sad
When Master Kelonguni said somethings , he care to explain. Sincere and patience therefore I respect him.
We should count ourselves lucky because others investments not making money. Image if majority make money in stocks our property prices will double if not triple. Don't you agree with me?
What I can say is that what is best to invest and how to do it are too complicated to explain to layman who don't bother to read and learn......
E.g. You know what is Black–Scholes model?
You know what is Portfolio optimization?
You know what is Moving Average Convergence and Divergence?
You know what are Oscillators and ROC Indicator etc?
You know why I avoided Accumulators?
You know why I avoided Structured Deposits and mini-bonds?
If you know, good for you.
If you don't, nobody is so free to teach you (if it takes longer than 1 min)........... :ashamed1:
If it is sincere why can't point it out but why can work so hard to tell property investment no good. She didn't owe it to us either? "Kind enough" to mislead.
bargain hunter
06-04-16, 23:29
You know why I avoided Accumulators?
:ashamed1:
this one i know. "accumulator" = "i kill u later"
Really sound like it!
Trust the Hongkee to come with such name, hidden meaning: "I kill u later"!
this one i know. "accumulator" = "i kill u later"
proud owner
07-04-16, 00:18
For now ... just collect rent ( got tenant ... just rent it out ... dont bargain )
and trade my FX ...
so volatile ... so good to trade ...
People who don't know how to invest/trade complain about volatility in stocks etc and say too risky and can't make money blah blah blah........
But that is because they are ignorant, and hence they can only invest in properties....
But too bad, the Government's property cooling measures has killed the property market and killed their chance/hope of making money..............
They should learn that "volatility" is actually an investors' best friend (not just for speculators / traders)................
For now ... just collect rent ( got tenant ... just rent it out ... dont bargain )
and trade my FX ...
so volatile ... so good to trade ...
People who don't know how to invest/trade complain about volatility in stocks etc and say too risky and can't make money blah blah blah........
But that is because they are ignorant, and hence they can only invest in properties....
But too bad, the Government's property cooling measures has killed the property market and killed their chance/hope of making money..............
They should learn that "volatility" is actually an investors' best friend (not just for speculators / traders)................
Master Bear since you are so sophisticated, did you make a killing in other investments beside property ? I hope simple answer than sophisticated one.
Master Bear since you are so sophisticated, did you make a killing in other investments beside property ? I hope simple answer than sophisticated one.
There are many avenues for gamblers that are misportrayed as investments.
Other than property which is the most transparent, I feel that only stocks and bonds can be classified as alternative forms of investments.
In order to qualify, they must at least allow the investor to rest well, sleep well. Another criteria is high risk, high gains that people can understand. For some forms, the "investor" is not even fully aware of their risks, being focused only on the potential gains.
Property is the most stable and suitable for everyone with all risk profiles (depending on which segment one buys into). But allowing people to overleverage on loans allows them to take risks beyond their ability, which is inherently unfair and introduces risks to our system. Bonds are the most stable and suitable for the most risk averse who does not want the hassle and complications of properties (which is great news for some of us). Stocks are the most liquid and allows some degree of timing the market. However, if one buys into red chips that one is not familiar, the gains and losses can indeed be great.
I often always share my entry and exit of stocks here. So far the annual gain based on the principle amount is consistent at 5-8%. It's not much compared to some other sophisticated investments, but I am satisfied with the risks taken and the rewards that follow.
Master Kelonguni , like what I said you are not selfish and sincere in sharing info and knowledge. I personally know many ppl gained from properties but lost in stocks market and other investments. Just don't understand why there are ppl here who like to mislead the society and lack of conscience. Sad!!!
Master Kelonguni , like what I said you are not selfish and sincere in sharing info and knowledge. I personally know many ppl gained from properties but lost in stocks market and other investments. Just don't understand why there are ppl here who like to mislead the society and lack of conscience. Sad!!!
Some people are just stubborn. I know a friend who lost in stocks and other risky instruments enough to buy a private property 10 years ago.
Even until today, he refuse to trust in the value of a private property in SG. He is looking to buy in Thailand now because he said is cheaper and more value for money. Combined household income monthly probably 25K and still young (under 40).
If you know what is portfolio diversification, you should know we don't invest just in properties and nothing else, obviously we must have been investing in something else (other than properties), and will be rotating around other assets and making money out of those other assets.................
And because we are rotating (buying and selling and buying in short term), there is NO WAY we can update you promptly, so better NOT ............ :p
Later people say you ask them to buy because of self-interest (to help to push up price) but never ask them to sell when we sell blah blah blah............... :pig:
Also, investment is about a portfolio of investments, not individual investment, and would anybody tell you his/her whole portfolio? Not that I know of............ You only get a glimpse of 1 thing, which is much more dangerous...........
Don't think we know the full portfolio of Kelonguni? :mask:
Ok, you better go and learn more about investment............
Then you will know 99-years LH OCR property at current price is significantly over-valued..... :tongue3:
Master Bear since you are so sophisticated, did you make a killing in other investments beside property ? I hope simple answer than sophisticated one.
Thanks! Agreed totally , stubborn and because resentment
This thread started by "vip" always draw my attention because her views mirrored mine. She started to caution about Singapore property market in 2011 which I concurred. I even suggested highly leveraged multi-property investors to sell some of their assets in late 2011. Looking back, our views had proven right.
In response to Mr Citizen in another thread a week ago: "Take it or leave it" also started by vip, below was my contribution:
It is not complete to look at the property market between 2009 to now because this period is only part of the property cycle. One should look at the period from 1990 to now to have a good understanding of how the market actually works even though every cycle is different due to different circumstances.
Your experiences and decision in 2009 was "right" because the world was just starting to react to the Lebman's crisis in 2008 with the expectation that the US would be experiencing a similar financial crisis like the one in Asia in 1997. Singapore then was still in the midst of recession. What the FED did to save the US from a severe recession was to flood the market with cheap money and with near zero interest rate were unprecedential. These cheap money and low interest rates caused asset inflation across many cities in the world including Singapore.
What the FED did did not provide real economic growth. The slow down in China is going to hit US much more than it ability to generate domestic growth. At home, the government's firmness in preventing asset bubbles is working and the soft landing is slowing making its present felt.
There were many people who sold their flats in late 2009 and hoping to buy back later were severely punished. If you are not one of them, count yourself lucky.
If you think you have missed the boat to buy in 2009 by looking at today's price, sure you feel sour; but fed not because between 2009 and now the cycle is still "not complete". Currently, many resale transactions in RCR (less in OCR) have already reached 2010/2011 level. Prices in CCR had already "crashed".
If you had bought between 2009 and 2013 and are collecting rents over the past years, it should not bother you whether prices go up or down further. If you bought between 2013 and now, you should be financially solid to be able to ride out the cycle. Having said that, of course we are going to see more bank sales going forward because of the declining rental market, softer job market and the expected rising interest rate. This is normal as the market wipes out the weak buyers.
Property investment is really for the long term (10 years at least). In between cycles, there will be minor adjustments due to both latent and effective demands.
We are still in the midst of adjustment in this current cycle.
I noted that some investors here only look at the Singapore property market from 2009 to now. I think it is not good enough. We need to look at least 10 years. For the savvy investors, I believe they will look at the market from 1990 to gain better insights and knowledge.
Property agents and those vested in the real estate always like to say "nobody knows when price is going up or down". Savvy investors will only smile and let them be.
I think from 1990 is not long enough. We must look across 51 years since Singapore's independence at 1965 to understand the significance of this story we are building.
The truth is, people who are looking to BUY LOW always have the same views. Even those who already own, not willing to sell and want to buy more. They will also have these views.
And if you read carefully, many of us vested agree that price direction is still oriented downwards but it's still more fruitful to move first. Ultimately, buyers might have to fork out even more if specific taxes that they are exempt today are implemented with exemptions really removed. So to make a decisive action or to wait for expiry, it's up to them, because it doesn't affect us. Only those who qualify understand what I am saying.
This thread started by "vip" always draw my attention because her views mirrored mine. She started to caution about Singapore property market in 2011 which I concurred. I even suggested highly leveraged multi-property investors to sell some of their assets in late 2011. Looking back, our views had proven right.
In response to Mr Citizen in another thread a week ago: "Take it or leave it" also started by vip, below was my contribution:
I noted that some investors here only look at the Singapore property market from 2009 to now. I think it is not good enough. We need to look at least 10 years. For the savvy investors, I believe they will look at the market from 1990 to gain better insights and knowledge.
Property agents and those vested in the real estate always like to say "nobody knows when price is going up or down". Savvy investors will only smile and let them be.
I think from 1990 is not long enough. We must look across 51 years since Singapore's independence at 1965 to understand the significance of this story we are building.
The truth is, people who are looking to BUY LOW always have the same views. Even those who already own, not willing to sell and want to buy more. They will also have these views.
And if you read carefully, many of us vested agree that price direction is still oriented downwards but it's still more fruitful to move first. Ultimately, buyers might have to fork out even more if specific taxes that they are exempt today are implemented with exemptions really removed. So to make a decisive action or to wait for expiry, it's up to them, because it doesn't affect us. Only those who qualify understand what I am saying.
I would like to point out that the Singapore private property market only started to take off in the late 80s' when our GDP were high (double digits growth in many years) and people became richer. So we should look at the market from 1990 onward. Anything earlier is meaningless because not many people invested in property then.
I do see your point of view. Many people especially professionals just buy even during the peak because they not only could afford, they do not have time or the knowledge to invest in other instruments which they viewed as too risky. These people usually are not bothered by property prices going up or down because they buy property to "preserve their wealth" and not really to create wealth.
My views are meant for investors who take property investment as part of their bigger investment portfolio and not to those who only investment is property.
http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj235/jimolsen2/Singapore-Prop-Price-2_zpspqwc3qjc.jpg
Bro Leeds, this is where we disagree.
Land sales and speculations have been present for as long as civilisation. Specifically for SG, please refer to the relative SPI recorded since 1975.
Many individuals (politicians, teachers, businessmen) and companies (Hong Leong, Far East) invested in properties long long time ago, perhaps even before independence. And I am sure you have seen SBC shows showing landlords collecting rent from tenants in the 1960s or earlier.
Property is only a part of my portfolio. But I shifted most of my earlier investments into property once I understood the global pattern and situation, which many still have a blindspot for. After those moves, I can rest easy channelling reserves and new funds to other investments.
I would like to point out that the Singapore private property market only started to take off in the late 80s' when our GDP were high (double digits growth in many years) and people became richer. So we should look at the market from 1990 onward. Anything earlier is meaningless because not many people invested in property then.
I do see your point of view. Many people especially professionals just buy even during the peak because they not only could afford, they do not have time or the knowledge to invest in other instruments which they viewed as too risky. These people usually are not bothered by property prices going up or down because they buy property to "preserve their wealth" and not really to create wealth.
My views are meant for investors who take property investment as part of their bigger investment portfolio and not to those who only investment is property.
If and when overall ppty market crash, the STI would probably be at 1500, DOW <10000, many stock darlings will become penny stocks, corporate bonds becoming junk bonds... maybe even COE will be like $10k only. It may happen, but when and by what magnitude, and it will most probably need to be triggered by a major global event? There is very few negative betas investment which is easily understood and can be bought into by the masses. So if someone is strongly advocating that ppty market will crush, are they diverting their funds into derivatives or other hard assets? Or are they walking the talk and just be keeping cash to wait out for the crash... it is a tough call imo.
Another one that shows from 1960
You can't say it never took off before 1980. For example, 2Q76 is 13.3 while 2Q81 is 48.4.
The price difference in 5 years shows a 264% increase.
https://paulngproperty.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/singapore_property_price_index_1960_to_2010.jpg
http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj235/jimolsen2/Singapore-Prop-Price-2_zpspqwc3qjc.jpg
Bro Leeds, this is where we disagree.
Land sales and speculations have been present for as long as civilisation. Specifically for SG, please refer to the relative SPI recorded since 1975.
Many individuals (politicians, teachers, businessmen) and companies (Hong Leong, Far East) invested in properties long long time ago, perhaps even before independence. And I am sure you have seen SBC shows showing landlords collecting rent from tenants in the 1960s or earlier.
Property is only a part of my portfolio. But I shifted most of my earlier investments into property once I understood the global pattern and situation, which many still have a blindspot for. After those moves, I can rest easy channelling reserves and new funds to other investments.
You can look back to 1975 if you find the data useful. Investment in Condo in Singapore started only in the late 80s'. So anything earlier is not quite reflective of the buying behaviour of consumers. Do note that the URA price index was rebased to 100 in 1993 to better reflect the surge in property buying during the said period.
If you are comfortable with your investments and pass the test of the "worst case scenario", then do not be bother with differing views from others.
I also respect those professionals buying property to preserved their wealth and not with the intention of creating wealth. Their needs are different from investors.
For the sake of the discussion, the private property indices were based on landed properties as well which have an even longer history than HDBs, until SG ran out of land to continue building landed.
If you scrutinize all the peaks and troughs of the property market in 50 years, you will see something very interesting.
You can look back to 1975 if you find the data useful. Investment in Condo in Singapore started only in the late 80s'. So anything earlier is not quite reflective of the buying behaviour of consumers. Do note that the URA price index was rebased to 100 in 1993 to better reflect the surge in property buying during the said period.
If you are comfortable with your investments and pass the test of the "worst case scenario", then do not be bother with differing views from others.
I also respect those professionals buying property to preserved their wealth and not with the intention of creating wealth. Their needs are different from investors.
The question I have been asking myself a lot is what if I sell all the properties I own for cash? Can I get better return? Can I lower the risks?
For the sake of the discussion, the private property indices were based on landed properties as well which have an even longer history than HDBs, until SG ran out of land to continue building landed.
If you scrutinize all the peaks and troughs of the property market in 50 years, you will see something very interesting.
Property index is highly co-related to GDP, inflation and per capital income. Every peak would follow by a dip. Anyone who has knowledge in economic will know that a booming economy will be followed by a recession. The basic theory is that during economic boom, producers will produce and build until there is over-capacity. With or without government's intervention, these over-capacity will filter down the economy and a recession follows. Government's interventions in the economy is to help the process less painful.
Peak and trough is definitely obvious.
What else can you observe about the LENGTHS of each peak and trough? What are the two possible scenarios that arise after each trough period? Which scenario do you think we are at now?
Property index is highly co-related to GDP, inflation and per capital income. Every peak would follow by a dip. Anyone who has knowledge in economic will know that a booming economy will be followed by a recession. The basic theory is that during economic boom, producers will produce and build until there is over-capacity. With or without government's intervention, these over-capacity will filter down the economy and a recession follows. Government's interventions in the economy is to help the process less painful.
proud owner
07-04-16, 14:14
There are many avenues for gamblers that are misportrayed as investments.
Other than property which is the most transparent, I feel that only stocks and bonds can be classified as alternative forms of investments.
In order to qualify, they must at least allow the investor to rest well, sleep well. Another criteria is high risk, high gains that people can understand. For some forms, the "investor" is not even fully aware of their risks, being focused only on the potential gains.
Property is the most stable and suitable for everyone with all risk profiles (depending on which segment one buys into). But allowing people to overleverage on loans allows them to take risks beyond their ability, which is inherently unfair and introduces risks to our system. Bonds are the most stable and suitable for the most risk averse who does not want the hassle and complications of properties (which is great news for some of us). Stocks are the most liquid and allows some degree of timing the market. However, if one buys into red chips that one is not familiar, the gains and losses can indeed be great.
I often always share my entry and exit of stocks here. So far the annual gain based on the principle amount is consistent at 5-8%. It's not much compared to some other sophisticated investments, but I am satisfied with the risks taken and the rewards that follow.
Hi friend,
Property / bond / equities are NOT LIQUID.
meaning you can get in, but can't get out easily.
These have Opening Hours.
say you hold 2 properties, some Bonds, some equities ....
during 911, how many could get out of those investments? not at least till the next opening hours.
many could not sleep well at that time too.
How many 'investors' who bought properties and when new regulations were announced, usually at the end of trading day, lost sleep ? or worry over rising mortgage rates ?
There are many different investments..
no one person is good at or can handle ALL of them concurrently.
For me, real estate is a long time investment.
The right time to go in, is when you know you can withstand rising rates, etc for 5 years..
Bonds give too low returns
Equities too, can be long term. But i dislike the very fact that when Shxt hits the fences, the exchange is closed. And one needs to wait till it opens, and most of the time, they gap up or gay down.
For me, as it had been my career for over 20 yrs, I am very comfortable with FX.
It is a 24 hr operation.
from Singapore time Sunday (monday 3am) to almost Saturday wee hrs.
i can get in and get out ANYTIME.
It can be stressful, but the volatility and liquid market pose so many opportunities, it can be hourly, daily, weekly, monthly.
So investments really depend on :
1. how much capital you hour
2. holding power
3. life style
and more .....
so property bonds and equities suit you.
But they may dont suit another.
hence there is no such thing as Best investment. it depends on individual.
proud owner
07-04-16, 14:20
Oh by the way, when i was trading FX full time, i LOVED to share my Entry point, Stop level, P/T level with other traders and non trader too ...
i know i have good trading track records...
i know they will jump in and follow my trades ..
that helped to add Volume to the market and very often, they went in the direction intended.
This is one of the reasons why investors sometimes like to SHARE their investment ideas ....
Bro Proud Owner, you are right to conclude that way based on your experience.
Most important criteria is my lifestyle as an average Joe with normal working hours. Most FX people I know are vampires who can live on with odd sleeping hours or none. And many of the trading platforms involve a high degree of speculation, maybe a bit too much for me.
Investments have to be medium or long term, else can only be regarded as speculation. In that respect, stocks and bonds are still highly liquid.
Hi friend,
Property / bond / equities are NOT LIQUID.
meaning you can get in, but can't get out easily.
These have Opening Hours.
say you hold 2 properties, some Bonds, some equities ....
during 911, how many could get out of those investments? not at least till the next opening hours.
many could not sleep well at that time too.
How many 'investors' who bought properties and when new regulations were announced, usually at the end of trading day, lost sleep ? or worry over rising mortgage rates ?
There are many different investments..
no one person is good at or can handle ALL of them concurrently.
For me, real estate is a long time investment.
The right time to go in, is when you know you can withstand rising rates, etc for 5 years..
Bonds give too low returns
Equities too, can be long term. But i dislike the very fact that when Shxt hits the fences, the exchange is closed. And one needs to wait till it opens, and most of the time, they gap up or gay down.
For me, as it had been my career for over 20 yrs, I am very comfortable with FX.
It is a 24 hr operation.
from Singapore time Sunday (monday 3am) to almost Saturday wee hrs.
i can get in and get out ANYTIME.
It can be stressful, but the volatility and liquid market pose so many opportunities, it can be hourly, daily, weekly, monthly.
So investments really depend on :
1. how much capital you hour
2. holding power
3. life style
and more .....
so property bonds and equities suit you.
But they may dont suit another.
hence there is no such thing as Best investment. it depends on individual.
I never share to this level of details. Maybe just banks, or just OCR FH, LH. I doubt there is anyone who will or can actually follow me.
It is more of a testament to myself that my thinking and strategies work with stocks, and as a way of tracking gains.
Usually when I jump in, that's when 90% of people are avoiding, so it's a very different story from what you described.
Oh by the way, when i was trading FX full time, i LOVED to share my Entry point, Stop level, P/T level with other traders and non trader too ...
i know i have good trading track records...
i know they will jump in and follow my trades ..
that helped to add Volume to the market and very often, they went in the direction intended.
This is one of the reasons why investors sometimes like to SHARE their investment ideas ....
Thanks all the Masters for their contributions , it is very encouraging to see constructive views good or bad on property investment. Till now no one say any other investment that can beat property hand down and suitable for majority? It is proven it worked.
I also respect those professionals buying property to preserved their wealth and not with the intention of creating wealth. Their needs are different from investors.
This group of ppl usually are rich, they choose property to preserve their wealth is nothing to respect as they are already rich. I respect ppl like Kelonguni ,Arcachon etc they invest properties even they are average joe. Very encouraging.
This group of ppl usually are rich, they choose property to preserve their wealth is nothing to respect as they are already rich. I respect ppl like Kelonguni ,Arcachon etc they invest properties even they are average joe. Very encouraging.
Respect in this regard is about respecting their decisions to buy at peak to preserve their wealth because their needs are different.
Arcachon is no ordinary investor. He bought most of his properties during the down period.
bargain hunter
07-04-16, 18:54
This group of ppl usually are rich, they choose property to preserve their wealth is nothing to respect as they are already rich. I respect ppl like Kelonguni ,Arcachon etc they invest properties even they are average joe. Very encouraging.
some of the rich were also once average joe...deserve respect.
Actually age plays a role. Age gives some people some opportunities that others overlook even at the same age. I advised my parents to get a landed property in the 80s but they only want HDB.
Also it's more what you buy than when you buy that matters.
Respect in this regard is about respecting their decisions to buy at peak to preserve their wealth because their needs are different.
Arcachon is no ordinary investor. He bought most of his properties during the down period.
If I were born 10 years earlier, I would probably have entered the ppty market 10 years earlier and would be much richer than now.....
proud owner
07-04-16, 20:00
Thanks all the Masters for their contributions , it is very encouraging to see constructive views good or bad on property investment. Till now no one say any other investment that can beat property hand down and suitable for majority? It is proven it worked.
Bro/Sis,
Different leh ...
If i trade FX, on my personal account, in amount of $1mil to $2mil
I dare say i make a lot more than investing in properties...
Just as an example...
Say you take a loan of 1.5mil to buy a 2 mil private property..
cash outlay 500k
what is your mthly loan repayment ?
what is your possible rental rate ?
what is the nett income ? ( rent collected - loan repayment) ?
any capital gain ? ( maybe not now, not yet)
But you have put aside 500k ... and it generates + - 1 to 2k amth
meanwhile i open a trading acc ... with just 20k ...
i can generate 5 to 10k every mth ..
in fact from the beginning of this year ... mkt has been really volatile ...
i know many of my trading kakis ... has been generating 100 to 200 pct returns every month...
of course they read financial reports, plot their charts, etc etc .. it takes a bit of consistent hard work...
taking into account, the amount of $ invested, and the return,
20k vs 500k
to us, property IS not a good investment. At least not now, not the past 5 years, Not the next 5 yrs ..
proud owner
07-04-16, 20:02
If I were born 10 years earlier, I would probably have entered the ppty market 10 years earlier and would be much richer than now.....
if i were born 5 years earlier, i would have stopped my dad from selling our FH 0.5 acre landed house ...
if i were born 5 years earlier, i would have stopped my dad from selling our FH 0.5 acre landed house ...
Looks like you were a bit more lucky or blessed than me.... parents with a landed house to begin with...
My parents gave me a full education which i am thankful for but maybe 50% of their hdb house eventually.
Bro/Sis,
Different leh ...
If i trade FX, on my personal account, in amount of $1mil to $2mil
I dare say i make a lot more than investing in properties...
Just as an example...
Say you take a loan of 1.5mil to buy a 2 mil private property..
cash outlay 500k
what is your mthly loan repayment ?
what is your possible rental rate ?
what is the nett income ? ( rent collected - loan repayment) ?
any capital gain ? ( maybe not now, not yet)
But you have put aside 500k ... and it generates + - 1 to 2k amth
meanwhile i open a trading acc ... with just 20k ...
i can generate 5 to 10k every mth ..
in fact from the beginning of this year ... mkt has been really volatile ...
i know many of my trading kakis ... has been generating 100 to 200 pct returns every month...
of course they read financial reports, plot their charts, etc etc .. it takes a bit of consistent hard work...
taking into account, the amount of $ invested, and the return,
20k vs 500k
to us, property IS not a good investment. At least not now, not the past 5 years, Not the next 5 yrs ..
Are you doing FX trading full-time (i mean are you holding a fulltime job like 9 to 5 as well)? or typically what are the trading hours you spent in a month?
Steady brother! Congrats on your talent and hard work.
But the hard work and skills are possessed by a rare few to earn consistently. It also takes some compromise of lifestyle that might not make it friendly at certain stages of life.
Actually paying down mortgage is building equity. Interest paid is the only real cost but tax deductible. You need to pay for 10 years then you will realize its power. The best thing is somebody pays it for you.
But I guess for each his own. My 20k will be in stocks with 5-8% annual gains. Happy already.
Bro/Sis,
Different leh ...
If i trade FX, on my personal account, in amount of $1mil to $2mil
I dare say i make a lot more than investing in properties...
Just as an example...
Say you take a loan of 1.5mil to buy a 2 mil private property..
cash outlay 500k
what is your mthly loan repayment ?
what is your possible rental rate ?
what is the nett income ? ( rent collected - loan repayment) ?
any capital gain ? ( maybe not now, not yet)
But you have put aside 500k ... and it generates + - 1 to 2k amth
meanwhile i open a trading acc ... with just 20k ...
i can generate 5 to 10k every mth ..
in fact from the beginning of this year ... mkt has been really volatile ...
i know many of my trading kakis ... has been generating 100 to 200 pct returns every month...
of course they read financial reports, plot their charts, etc etc .. it takes a bit of consistent hard work...
taking into account, the amount of $ invested, and the return,
20k vs 500k
to us, property IS not a good investment. At least not now, not the past 5 years, Not the next 5 yrs ..
Bro/Sis,
Different leh ...
If i trade FX, on my personal account, in amount of $1mil to $2mil
I dare say i make a lot more than investing in properties...
Just as an example...
Say you take a loan of 1.5mil to buy a 2 mil private property..
cash outlay 500k
what is your mthly loan repayment ?
what is your possible rental rate ?
what is the nett income ? ( rent collected - loan repayment) ?
any capital gain ? ( maybe not now, not yet)
But you have put aside 500k ... and it generates + - 1 to 2k amth
meanwhile i open a trading acc ... with just 20k ...
i can generate 5 to 10k every mth ..
in fact from the beginning of this year ... mkt has been really volatile ...
i know many of my trading kakis ... has been generating 100 to 200 pct returns every month...
of course they read financial reports, plot their charts, etc etc .. it takes a bit of consistent hard work...
taking into account, the amount of $ invested, and the return,
20k vs 500k
to us, property IS not a good investment. At least not now, not the past 5 years, Not the next 5 yrs ..
Since $20k in FX account, u can generate like $5-10k per month.
If you have cash $500k now, would you go in big big time in FX like 25x, which would be like $125k to $250k per month of profits?
Ha good point.
At certain level of funds, the heart can't take the excitement. At least for me.
And not to mention the occasional one time huge loss that wipes out everything...
Since $20k in FX account, u can generate like $5-10k per month.
If you have cash $500k now, would you go in big big time in FX like 25x, which would be like $125k to $250k per month of profits?
Ha good point.
At certain level of funds, the heart can't take the excitement. At least for me.
And not to mention the occasional one time huge loss that wipes out everything...
That's right. If I have $520k cash, I might still use $500k in ppty and maybe the $20k in FX....
certainly not $520k in FX.
proud owner
07-04-16, 20:43
Are you doing FX trading full-time (i mean are you holding a fulltime job like 9 to 5 as well)? or typically what are the trading hours you spent in a month?
been a trader for 20+ yrs ...
retired 4 yrs ago ..
so now trade on my own time... average I spend 3 hrs a night (week days only)... usually while watching TV .. i have my laptop next to me..
i still go for holidays etc ... just place my SL and PT levels ...
been a trader for 20+ yrs ...
retired 4 yrs ago ..
so now trade on my own time... average I spend 3 hrs a night (week days only)... usually while watching TV .. i have my laptop next to me..
i still go for holidays etc ... just place my SL and PT levels ...
Oic...It is one of my aim to be a master of FX trading... but i am not there yet.
proud owner
07-04-16, 20:48
Since $20k in FX account, u can generate like $5-10k per month.
If you have cash $500k now, would you go in big big time in FX like 25x, which would be like $125k to $250k per month of profits?
theoretically yes
if i place that amount in the trading account ... i can trade that huge amount, to generate that sort of $$.
But like Kelonguni said, it becomes stressful.
Afterall... i am retired ... i make enough spending money...for holidays ...etc etc ...good enough
Hence if one, equipped with the right skills , knowledge, discipline, etc ... he can open account with 500k .. and trade at home FULL time .. and make a lot more than properties ...
i know of many many bankers... hedge fund guys ... they dont own a single property ... just a lot of cash hahahha
and they rather pay $35k a mth to rent a GCB ...
theoretically yes
if i place that amount in the trading account ... i can trade that huge amount, to generate that sort of $$.
But like Kelonguni said, it becomes stressful.
Afterall... i am retired ... i make enough spending money...for holidays ...etc etc ...good enough
Hence if one, equipped with the right skills , knowledge, discipline, etc ... he can open account with 500k .. and trade at home FULL time .. and make a lot more than properties ...
i know of many many bankers... hedge fund guys ... they dont own a single property ... just a lot of cash hahahha
and they rather pay $35k a mth to rent a GCB ...
To be a reasonably good FX trader, i opine I would have to do it full-time or as a retirement hobby....
It is impossible for me to do that while I am holding a full time job and yet able to achieve a decent returns on FX trading.
So for anyone earning a decent salary, say $10k, they would find it hard to quit their job and do FX full-time to aim to generate $10k in FX returns.
Those friends of yours in hedge funds etc are experts in trading derivatives, and probably not a believer in alternative assets. Hence they will hold cash to trade derivatives. But for those not in trading as their daily job, they will believe more in asset investments.
if i were born 5 years earlier, i would have stopped my dad from selling our FH 0.5 acre landed house ...
Confused!!! I though you should say start fx trading earlier and buy more landed instead.
Don't mean to offend you, what is the percentage of ppl gained in FX trading as compare to property investment?
proud owner
07-04-16, 22:06
Confused!!! I though you should say start fx trading earlier and buy more landed instead.
i remember growing up in a landed house ... where each neighbor was pretty far away ... every house was a detached ... surrounded by its own garden ...
we had 3 rambutan trees ... matured adult ranbutan trees ... massive ... stood in a row at the far end of the garden ...
their branches didnt touch the other ..
had 1 durian tree , 1 sour sop, 1 well , 2 outpost toilets hahahahha
those were in the garden ...
between the house and the garden, was what felt like 2 tennis courts size gravel Parking area...
gosh .... how i wish now that we still have that piece of land ...
proud owner
07-04-16, 22:08
Don't mean to offend you, what is the percentage of ppl gained in FX trading as compare to property investment?
i think equal number ...
just that the gain each time / tenor / are different
so is the loss ...
i hear traders who loses 10s of 1000... same as investors who cut loss in properties ... but in Millions ..
proud owner
07-04-16, 22:11
To be a reasonably good FX trader, i opine I would have to do it full-time or as a retirement hobby....
It is impossible for me to do that while I am holding a full time job and yet able to achieve a decent returns on FX trading.
So for anyone earning a decent salary, say $10k, they would find it hard to quit their job and do FX full-time to aim to generate $10k in FX returns.
Those friends of yours in hedge funds etc are experts in trading derivatives, and probably not a believer in alternative assets. Hence they will hold cash to trade derivatives. But for those not in trading as their daily job, they will believe more in asset investments.
you would be good in your other investment...just maybe not FX ...
thats what i mean when i say there are many different forms of investment ... no one person can perform well in all ...
those friends of mine are all retired ... no longer working full time ...
proud owner
07-04-16, 22:15
Oic...It is one of my aim to be a master of FX trading... but i am not there yet.
FX trading is a combination of the Art of trading + the Science of Trading ..
many traders, full time or not, working in a bank or trading from home, very often, only learn the ART of trading ...
No one, no school, not IBF, nowhere , teaches you the Science of trading ...
it took us many years to finally acquired the Science ...
which we are now teaching to young aspiring individuals, who wants to, one day, work in a Hedge Fund, or a successful Proprietory trader.
you would be good in your other investment...just maybe not FX ...
thats what i mean when i say there are many different forms of investment ... no one person can perform well in all ...
those friends of mine are all retired ... no longer working full time ...
One day when I semi-retire, maybe I will go learn FX more to execute the trades in a bigger way confidently.... FX has always interests me.
But as of now, i will rely on familiar grounds in alternative assets, and aiming for pre-ipo fundings in catalist listings etc.
i think equal number ...
just that the gain each time / tenor / are different
so is the loss ...
i hear traders who loses 10s of 1000... same as investors who cut loss in properties ... but in Millions ..
Only can lose million if you invest in 5 to 10 million property onwards. If buy 1+ million or under a million property how to lose a million?
proud owner
07-04-16, 22:30
Only can lose million if you invest in 5 to 10 million property onwards. If buy 1+ million or under a million property how to lose a million?
of course lah ...
whatever the amount paid , the loss in an investment that cost Million, will definitely be greater than another investment thats only, say 20k ...
Another way to look at it.
If lost 20K in highly volatile trade, 20K lost.
If lost 20K in property valuation, gained 20K in rent, overall capital still the same amount.
Anyway is just about perspectives. Congrats on doing well in your choice. One day I hope to learn from experts like yourself!
of course lah ...
whatever the amount paid , the loss in an investment that cost Million, will definitely be greater than another investment thats only, say 20k ...
proud owner
07-04-16, 23:04
Another way to look at it.
If lost 20K in highly volatile trade, 20K lost.
If lost 20K in property valuation, gained 20K in rent, overall capital still the same amount.
Anyway is just about perspectives. Congrats on doing well in your choice. One day I hope to learn from experts like yourself!
And i, you on equities and bonds
Respect in this regard is about respecting their decisions to buy at peak to preserve their wealth because their needs are different.
Arcachon is no ordinary investor. He bought most of his properties during the down period.
Respect someone who is sincere, willing to share, got foresight to buy even he is average joe. For rich he can buy at high or low. We gain and earn respects not buy respects. Image you in lambo club, pcs or sicc etc they changed cars regarding high or low. You got to respect all the members? Very sad
I am expecting record stamp duty collection this year, probably by a huge margin. Some of those developments I had been monitoring are all sold out.
Actually I also won't classify myself as buying at the peak to preserve wealth. Almost all who needed to buy in 2013 after TDSR have had to do so due to urgent need for housing. But of course, there is JG which we are all anticipating.
Remember, we are in 2Q2016. I hope the market waits or falls for me for 5 years more when most/all major CMs are removed. I think I can get one more by then. But do I logically think so? Not really.
I am expecting record stamp duty collection this year, probably by a huge margin. Some of those developments I had been monitoring are all sold out.
Actually I also won't classify myself as buying at the peak to preserve wealth. Almost all who needed to buy in 2013 after TDSR have had to do so due to urgent need for housing. But of course, there is JG which we are all anticipating.
Remember, we are in 2Q2016. I hope the market waits or falls for me for 5 years more when most/all major CMs are removed. I think I can get one more by then. But do I logically think so? Not really.
And also, just to be clear, I did not buy in 2013 or 2014.
Respect someone who is sincere, willing to share, got foresight to buy even he is average joe. For rich he can buy at high or low. We gain and earn respects not buy respects. Image you in lambo club, pcs or sicc etc they changed cars regarding high or low. You got to respect all the members? Very sad
"If I am walking with two other men, each of them will serve as my teacher. I will pick out the good points of the one and imitate them, and the bad points of the other and correct them in myself." - Confucius
"If I am walking with two other men, each of them will serve as my teacher. I will pick out the good points of the one and imitate them, and the bad points of the other and correct them in myself." - Confucius
The problem is can't differentiate good and bad.
i think equal number ...
just that the gain each time / tenor / are different
so is the loss ...
i hear traders who loses 10s of 1000... same as investors who cut loss in properties ... but in Millions ..
Speak with conscience, how many of your friends lost millions in properties. Is the numbers greater than other investments. How many ppl gain from FX market greater than property market ?
The problem is can't differentiate good and bad.
"The superior man understands what is right; the inferior man understands what will sell." - Confucius
Cyberknight
08-04-16, 09:10
Kelonguni,
Hi, convenient to say which projects u monitor had sold out?
Citizen now become Master. Tone change. Start scolding other Masters. Very sad.
Citizen now become Master. Tone change. Start scolding other Masters. Very sad.
Thanks for your compliment , I'm here to learn how to differentiate superior and inferior man. Hopefully 1 person sad is better than everyone sad
Now sold out, so I won't be accused of asking people to buy (I hope).
One of them is Waterfront@Faber. Yowetan also monitoring that.
Another few very close to sell out (can consider as sold out) but not convenient to put here in case people say I try to advocate for them.
Oddly speaking, transit-based condos don't appear to be doing that well. Maybe still a mismatch in pricing at the moment.
Kelonguni,
Hi, convenient to say which projects u monitor had sold out?
gentlemanofleisure
08-04-16, 10:24
Kelongoni, care to explain your thought process for selecting waterfront @faber?
Now sold out, so I won't be accused of asking people to buy (I hope).
One of them is Waterfront@Faber. Yowetan also monitoring that.
Another few very close to sell out (can consider as sold out) but not convenient to put here in case people say I try to advocate for them.
Oddly speaking, transit-based condos don't appear to be doing that well. Maybe still a mismatch in pricing at the moment.
Bro, this one in D5 very deep inside lehhh...
Bro, this one in D5 very deep inside lehhh...
Kelongoni, care to explain your thought process for selecting waterfront @faber?
OK when I have more time, will elaborate on my thinking process here. Now is the time to work.
And to be academically precise, I am monitoring and not selecting.
The more important task for people looking to buy is to look for what's available and what meets their needs and not what meets other people's needs.
gentlemanofleisure
08-04-16, 10:46
The more important task for people looking to buy is to look for what's available and what meets their needs and not what meets other people's needs.
Thank you. I agree with you.
I am simply looking for gap or an angel that I may not have thought of.
proud owner
08-04-16, 20:07
Speak with conscience, how many of your friends lost millions in properties. Is the numbers greater than other investments. How many ppl gain from FX market greater than property market ?
judging from "speak with conscience" you are hinting that i am lying ..?
to begin with ... traders dont invest the same amount as one would in properties ..
Theoretically if they trade in the same amount as you would in properties ...yes they can make millions ..
If my example is not an individual but a trader in a bank, who trades in 1 to 2 millions... he will definitely make MORE than you make in properties of 1 to 2 mil price range ..
proud owner
08-04-16, 20:09
Thank you. I agree with you.
I am simply looking for gap or an angel that I may not have thought of.
i am looking for an angel too .....
Unfortunately there is a big misconception with many people that only investing in properties can make a lot of money, nothing else will............ which of course is not true......
Not sure how many of these people in Singapore think in this way but from this forum it looks like the number is big, and too bad the Singapore government's property cooling measures just killed their property market and their chance to make money.
While CCR private properties has crashed, most of the properties are too expensive for most of these people to afford, while OCR private properties which they can afford are just too significantly over-valued now (didn't drop much anyway), so can't buy cheap.
On the other hand, while OCR private properties are near historical highs, too bad, those people holding OCR private properties also can't sell at such good price (because buyers mostly asking for hair-cut below market price in view of government's property cooling measures and expecting prices to slide further) and if you want to sell now people think you are desperate and will only offer 10-20% below market price, so property market is basically DEAD!
Think Singapore property market probably in slow decline till 2021 (and facing next recession).......
So sayonara properties................
Better invest in other assets than properties now........
judging from "speak with conscience" you are hinting that i am lying ..?
to begin with ... traders dont invest the same amount as one would in properties ..
Theoretically if they trade in the same amount as you would in properties ...yes they can make millions ..
If my example is not an individual but a trader in a bank, who trades in 1 to 2 millions... he will definitely make MORE than you make in properties of 1 to 2 mil price range ..
judging from "speak with conscience" you are hinting that i am lying ..?
to begin with ... traders dont invest the same amount as one would in properties ..
Theoretically if they trade in the same amount as you would in properties ...yes they can make millions ..
If my example is not an individual but a trader in a bank, who trades in 1 to 2 millions... he will definitely make MORE than you make in properties of 1 to 2 mil price range ..
Just a simple question how many percent of the fx traders win? 100% 99% or less than 10%? Don't need tell 1 banker won millions and millions.
Unfortunately there is a big misconception with many people that only investing in properties can make a lot of money, nothing else will............ which of course is not
Of course property investment is not the only way. But it is the most simple way and highest percent of winners than any other investments. Just name 1 other investment that has many winners. If can't please don't beat around the bush
proud owner
09-04-16, 00:54
There are many investors who have made a lot more money elsewhere ...
then come to invest in properties ...
proud owner
09-04-16, 01:04
Anyway this is a property forum.
I shall not discuss FX trading further.
For those who truly want to know more or learn FX trading, PM me.
We can chat outside of this forum
Really highest percent of winners? What is the percent? I don't believe there is hard data to support it, and anyway that is history when Singapore's GDP is growing at double-digit or high single digit %.............
What you should do is look forward and given Singapore GDP is going to grow at 2-3.x% average over the long-term, do you sincerely think Singapore's property still can grow much faster than that???? Given that income growth supports property price, OCR property price rise is most likely dead (since layman will only get 2-3% income growth or even less)......
At that kind of growth, I am only looking at buying properties for asset diversification and wealth preservation and hence I only buy FH CCR properties (since we also know the rich will grow their wealth much faster than the average laymen and hence CCR prime properties are safer bet)......
And also at that kind of return, there are much better return elsewhere (if you have the knowledge to find and get)..........
Of course property investment is not the only way. But it is the most simple way and highest percent of winners than any other investments. Just name 1 other investment that has many winners. If can't please don't beat around the bush
OMG! Still the same kind of answer!
Maybe to rephrase the contexts, there are many ways to gain and lose money.
Money doesn't come from nowhere (unless you speak to Arcachon).
Some schemes allow for massive and immediate gains but at the combined massive and immediate losses of others. Ultimately somebody gains and somebody loses instantly. Inherently I feel that for such schemes the "gambling" and "gaming" element is too high especially if large funds are involved. In order for me to win, somebody has to lose. Therefore in this category, I will only select stocks due to its relatively transparent nature and certainty that buyers want to and can afford to buy and sellers want to and can afford to sell.
Property gains via many mechanisms that are in many contexts, win-win. Inflation, it gains. Currency valuation improves, it gains. People get higher pay (or more CPF contribution), it gains. Excessive money printing or money supply, it gains. But at some point, the high price translates into high rentals which can hurt some businesses. Therefore, there should be a degree of regulation preventing huge gains that cannot be backed by income.
Of course, within some segments, property is no longer tagged to the above. But by and large it is. It allows for guilt-free and relatively passive gains.
Amber Woods
09-04-16, 11:58
Master like Vip, Leeds and Terry Bear (2013) held the view that property going forward should be part of our investment portfolio and wealth preservation. Gone are the days where our GDP growth were double digits or high single digit to support rising property prices.
On the other hand, Citizen and Kelonguni took the view that property is still the best investment asset despite today's high price.
Citizen and Kelonguni seem to embraced Master like Arachon in his impressive property portfolio which he built up through leveraging.
This thread is interesting but once people start to trade punches or insult at each other, it will end up with the louder group of people singing the same song to each other and this thread or forum will again loose its values.
I would rather have different or even opposite views than just reading the same group singing praises to each other. I hope that both groups will not insult one another but exchange views in a polite manner.
Like what Leeds said: "If I am walking with two other men, each of them will serve as my teacher. I will pick out the good points of the one and imitate them, and the bad points of the other and correct them in myself." - Confucius
Never did worship anyone nor insult anyone.
Just focused on facts of the matters and any evidence or knowledge. We can focus on the evidence and history to predict forward.
My view is actually to settle property portfolio first then continue to build funds using other investment strategies especially stocks.
Not primarily because it is the best investment but because it is the hardest to qualify (new CMs, debt and age limits) going forward.
Master like Vip, Leeds and Terry Bear (2013) held the view that property going forward should be part of our investment portfolio and wealth preservation. Gone are the days where our GDP growth were double digits or high single digit to support rising property prices.
On the other hand, Citizen and Kelonguni took the view that property is still the best investment asset despite today's high price.
Citizen and Kelonguni seem to embraced Master like Arachon in his impressive property portfolio which he built up through leveraging.
This thread is interesting but once people start to trade punches or insult at each other, it will end up with the louder group of people singing the same song to each other and this thread or forum will again loose its values.
I would rather have different or even opposite views than just reading the same group singing praises to each other. I hope that both groups will not insult one another but exchange views in a polite manner.
Like what Leeds said: "If I am walking with two other men, each of them will serve as my teacher. I will pick out the good points of the one and imitate them, and the bad points of the other and correct them in myself." - Confucius
Busy playing water.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sP4c9-YJjA
Maybe to rephrase the contexts, there are many ways to gain and lose money.
Money doesn't come from nowhere (unless you speak to Arcachon).
Maybe spend 4 Hours can help.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsrtB5lp60s
Master like Vip, Leeds and Terry Bear (2013) held the view that property going forward should be part of our investment portfolio and wealth preservation. Gone are the days where our GDP growth were double digits or high single digit to support rising property prices.
On the other hand, Citizen and Kelonguni took the view that property is still the best investment asset despite today's high price.
Citizen and Kelonguni seem to embraced Master like Arachon in his impressive property portfolio which he built up through leveraging.
This thread is interesting but once people start to trade punches or insult at each other, it will end up with the louder group of people singing the same song to each other and this thread or forum will again loose its values.
I would rather have different or even opposite views than just reading the same group singing praises to each other. I hope that both groups will not insult one another but exchange views in a polite manner.
Like what Leeds said: "If I am walking with two other men, each of them will serve as my teacher. I will pick out the good points of the one and imitate them, and the bad points of the other and correct them in myself." - Confucius
If you or the other Master has $500k of fresh funds, how would you invest them (or preserve them) in today's market? Need not be too precise if you are not comfortable to share.
I think Arachon would buy another ppty if he can still get loan.
https://scontent-sin1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtf1/v/t1.0-9/12985508_10207241254842595_2326614960843155333_n.jpg?oh=bf9a484a70f576d65743db0bc17a2b8c&oe=57BEDA1E
If don't have 4 Hours at least spend and Hour on this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOYiWOu-8iw&nohtml5=False
Amber Woods
09-04-16, 17:09
If you or the other Master has $500k of fresh funds, how would you invest them (or preserve them) in today's market? Need not be too precise if you are not comfortable to share.
I think Arachon would buy another ppty if he can still get loan.
In today's property market, with $500K of fresh fund, I would buy into short term corporate bonds averaging 5% p.a. with 50% leverage. That would give me about nett 7% return of the 500K after less interest for the other 500K on leverage. I could sell the bond (investment grade) anytime if there is opportunity to buy property within the next 3 years arises. By then, my bonds would have matured after 3 years.
If there is no opportunity to buy into property, I will continue to invest in bonds giving me nett 7% return which is still better than buying into inflated property now which give me a much lower nett return and higher risk of price falling and with a much higher chance of a recession in the coming years.
In today's property market, with $500K of fresh fund, I would buy into short term corporate bonds averaging 5% p.a. with 50% leverage. That would give me about nett 7% return of the 500K after less interest for the other 500K on leverage. I could sell the bond (investment grade) anytime if there is opportunity to buy property within the next 3 years arises. By then, my bonds would have matured after 3 years.
If there is no opportunity to buy into property, I will continue to invest in bonds giving me nett 7% return which is still better than buying into inflated property now which give me a much lower nett return and higher risk of price falling and with a much higher chance of a recession in the coming years.
I invested corp bonds and stocks quite a while, but not property. Some bonds can default and become worthless even nothing happen we just managed to beat inflation. Stocks can dropped and never recovered.
In my circle, I didn't see any gain in stocks and bonds to buy properties but sell properties and lost the gain in stocks.
In today's property market, with $500K of fresh fund, I would buy into short term corporate bonds averaging 5% p.a. with 50% leverage. That would give me about nett 7% return of the 500K after less interest for the other 500K on leverage. I could sell the bond (investment grade) anytime if there is opportunity to buy property within the next 3 years arises. By then, my bonds would have matured after 3 years.
If there is no opportunity to buy into property, I will continue to invest in bonds giving me nett 7% return which is still better than buying into inflated property now which give me a much lower nett return and higher risk of price falling and with a much higher chance of a recession in the coming years.
That's a sound plan, albeit a bit conservative to me.
Between stocks and bonds in general, I would choose stocks. There are dividend stocks with 5% yield or we can punt into selective penny stocks.
Bonds do have risks, I have seen them turning into junk bonds.
In my circle, I didn't see any gain in stocks and bonds to buy properties but sell properties and lost the gain in stocks.
I had lost big time in stocks before but also made enough to buy ppty.
Too stressful and so I have scaled them in stocks and only speculate on selective stocks not so much focusing on the dividends but on the price gain.
In 2009, we kept telling a relative to buy her property with the large dip. She said wait for recession bottom then buy. In the end, prices more than recovered then bought in 2011 grudgingly.
If can buy without taxes, should speed up. So many people are waiting for price drops, probably a quarter of those in one working office. 5 years later, I would also be in the queue again.
In today's property market, with $500K of fresh fund, I would buy into short term corporate bonds averaging 5% p.a. with 50% leverage. That would give me about nett 7% return of the 500K after less interest for the other 500K on leverage. I could sell the bond (investment grade) anytime if there is opportunity to buy property within the next 3 years arises. By then, my bonds would have matured after 3 years.
If there is no opportunity to buy into property, I will continue to invest in bonds giving me nett 7% return which is still better than buying into inflated property now which give me a much lower nett return and higher risk of price falling and with a much higher chance of a recession in the coming years.
In today's property market, with $500K of fresh fund, I would buy into short-term corporate bonds averaging 5% p.a. with 50% leverage. That would give me about nett 7% return of the 500K after less interest for the other 500K on leverage. I could sell the bond (investment grade) anytime if there is an opportunity to buy property within the next 3 years arises. By then, my bonds would have matured after 3 years.
If there is no opportunity to buy into property, I will continue to invest in bonds giving me nett 7% return which is still better than buying into inflated property now which give me a much lower nett return and higher risk of price falling and with a much higher chance of a recession in the coming years.
2006 when I buy Southbank people tell me very expensive that was 9 years after the Asian financial crisis. With all the Control Measure, I don't think the property is inflated and if you add the money printing all over the World it is only a matter of time when the Dam cannot hold the water any longer. Commercial, industrial, retail you can don't buy if it is too expensive but for residential property, you can don't buy what about your children are they going to stay with you. Or maybe you are already a grandparent, where will your grandchildren stay.
HDB is no longer an investment asset, with MSR, resale levy, CPF grant it can only make thing worst. When I buy my first HDB, I don't have the minimum 20% in the CPF to buy and after I stay for 7 years HDB give me SGD 180,000. Now you need to pay 50% of the cash to proceed for the next HDB and use all your CPF.
http://www.hdb.gov.sg/cs/infoweb/residential/selling-a-flat/options-for-your-next-flat
Taking a second HDB loan
If you plan to apply for a second HDB concessionary rate loan, do note that the loan amount has to be reduced by using your full CPF proceeds and part of the cash proceeds from the sale of your current or immediate past HDB flat.
You may keep $25,000 or half of the cash proceeds, whichever amount is more. We will take into account the remaining part of the cash proceeds when determining the amount of the second loan to be granted to you.
The right-sizing of loan amount ensures that you do not take a larger second concessionary loan than necessary, and can help to reduce the likelihood of subsequent mortgage arrears.
Amber Woods
09-04-16, 19:22
In 2009, we kept telling a relative to buy her property with the large dip. She said wait for recession bottom then buy. In the end, prices more than recovered then bought in 2011 grudgingly.
If can buy without taxes, should speed up. So many people are waiting for price drops, probably a quarter of those in one working office. 5 years later, I would also be in the queue again.
I have also friends who missed 2009 and went on to buy in late 2011 and even early 2012. They are all regretting their decisions now.
Some of them bought resale and collecting rents still not so bad. The worst hit were those bought new and under construction projects. They not only not collecting rent over the last 5 years, they are now facing the risk of falling prices, rising interest rate, falling rental yield and even rentability issue. Of course my friends are not savvy investors. They followed the herd. I hope they will learn.
All of those I knew who bought in 2011 and 2012 are for own stay in OCR and RCR. None of them have any regrets. I am the only one who bought for rental and also no regrets leh. Arcachon also bought one more then. Can check whether he regrets also.
Could it be possible they were trying to make you feel better by pretending to regret?
Else it must be specific project bah...
I have also friends who missed 2009 and went on to buy in late 2011 and even early 2012. They are all regretting their decisions now.
Some of them bought resale and collecting rents still not so bad. The worst hit were those bought new and under construction projects. They not only not collecting rent over the last 5 years, they are now facing the risk of falling prices, rising interest rate, falling rental yield and even rentability issue. Of course my friends are not savvy investors. They followed the herd. I hope they will learn.
bargain hunter
09-04-16, 19:55
All of those I knew who bought in 2011 and 2012 are for own stay in OCR and RCR. None of them have any regrets. I am the only one who bought for rental and also no regrets leh. Arcachon also bought one more then. Can check whether he regrets also.
Could it be possible they were trying to make you feel better by pretending to regret?
Else it must be specific project bah...
chances are more 2013 OCR buyers? 2011/2012 CCR buyers should have some feelings of regret too.
My top question is still how JG buyers feel. As long as they don't regret, everyone should be fine bah.
chances are more 2013 OCR buyers? 2011/2012 CCR buyers should have some feelings of regret too.
All of those I knew who bought in 2011 and 2012 are for own stay in OCR and RCR. None of them have any regrets. I am the only one who bought for rental and also no regrets leh. Arcachon also bought one more then. Can check whether he regrets also.
Could it be possible they were trying to make you feel better by pretending to regret?
Else it must be specific project bah...
I got only one regret cannot buy another one.
I know a few who have a fully paid HDB and lot of cash and CPF.
I ask them when the cash and CPF are used what will happen next.
Some Key Point.
https://lkyspp.nus.edu.sg/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Public-Housing-in-Singapore.pdf
1.With more than 80% of the population owning a HDB flat, housing is an important asset and potential source of retirement funds for those who choose to put their money into property, rather than keep it as liquid savings. Recognising this, the government, in the 1990s, shifted its focus towards the enhancement of housing assets through various upgrading schemes. (Refer to Annex 3 for details of the various upgrading schemes.) This enhancement in asset value was intended to distribute the fruits of economic growth, improve HDB living conditions and increase household wealth through property price appreciation../
2. In 1989, the income ceiling restriction was removed from HDB resale flats; the resale market was also opened to permanent residents as well as private property owners. HDB flat-owners could now also invest in private sector built dwellings.
Some Key Point.
https://lkyspp.nus.edu.sg/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Public-Housing-in-Singapore.pdf
1.With more than 80% of the population owning a HDB flat, housing is an important asset and potential source of retirement funds for those who choose to put their money into property, rather than keep it as liquid savings. Recognising this, the government, in the 1990s, shifted its focus towards the enhancement of housing assets through various upgrading schemes. (Refer to Annex 3 for details of the various upgrading schemes.) This enhancement in asset value was intended to distribute the fruits of economic growth, improve HDB living conditions and increase household wealth through property price appreciation../
2. In 1989, the income ceiling restriction was removed from HDB resale flats; the resale market was also opened to permanent residents as well as private property owners. HDB flat-owners could now also invest in private sector built dwellings.
The day if and when hdb owners can no longer buy a private (and hold on to their hdb) will be a killer change.
I invested corp bonds and stocks quite a while, but not property. Some bonds can default and become worthless even nothing happen we just managed to beat inflation. Stocks can dropped and never recovered.
Yes, I got burned badly before, counter got suspended and basically no more equity value for common shareholders.
Frankly, I think this article only serves 50% of the purpose and not really meaningful.
It shares certain valid points on the ppty market now but does not address if ppty is "no good" in current market, then what is writers' view on better alternatives. Is the writer advocating to go into stocks, bonds, commodity, currency or other instruments or simply to keep cash? Or maybe the writer is familiar with ppty market only and hence unable to offer alternatives, and may end up suggesting to keep cash?
If we are in a uncertain times, and ppty is no good obviously, then what is good? Definitely not stocks and bonds either. So is it time to sell all and buy into negative betas instruments only? Will the writer walks the talk?
If any of my staff comes and tell me his problems only, he is not a good staff. He needs to propose solutions or alternatives.
But your key point had become history.......
Previously, Singapore private property prices rise rapidly, particularly in OCR, is because Singapore government allows many foreigners of middle-income salary (not the high-end type) coming to Singapore to work, become PR, brought their whole family here (from their home country) and buying OCR private properties to live in (they can't buy new HDB flats).
Given that foreigners' intake allowed by Government has trickle to such small number (because they want "Singapore core" workforce - based on what they sensed/were told majority Singaporeans wanted), coupled with very slow GDP growth and a lot of economic uncertainty and hence insecurity in jobs (higher risk of retrenchment anytime), significantly over-priced OCR private property prices now, little prospect of much monetary upside of Singaporeans' HDB flats (and OCR private property prices), and further compounded by the property cooling measures, OCR private properties prices are just DEAD! I won't be surprise if their price didn't even rise above recent peak price for next 10 years...........
Most importantly, Mr Lee Kuan Yew is the one who strongly supported and willing to enforce "asset appreciation" (aka property appreciation) and see that this is achieved, and also believing that we should make the most hay while the sun shine (so if economy is strong and good, let the price appreciate!).
I don't think this property policy has been upheld by current government anymore - at least, I didn't see anybody in power still emphasizing (like Mr Lee) that their policy still focuses on "asset appreciation". Instead, what we see are pre-emptive property cooling measures to cool property prices quickly and strongly (which is the opposite of what Mr Lee had done/didn't do previously...........
Some Key Point.
https://lkyspp.nus.edu.sg/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Public-Housing-in-Singapore.pdf
1.With more than 80% of the population owning a HDB flat, housing is an important asset and potential source of retirement funds for those who choose to put their money into property, rather than keep it as liquid savings. Recognising this, the government, in the 1990s, shifted its focus towards the enhancement of housing assets through various upgrading schemes. (Refer to Annex 3 for details of the various upgrading schemes.) This enhancement in asset value was intended to distribute the fruits of economic growth, improve HDB living conditions and increase household wealth through property price appreciation../
2. In 1989, the income ceiling restriction was removed from HDB resale flats; the resale market was also opened to permanent residents as well as private property owners. HDB flat-owners could now also invest in private sector built dwellings.
Also, 1 of the most important thing to ensure property price continue to increase (regardless of resale HDB flats or private properties, especially OCR private properties), is to significantly increase the white-collar working population, and that means taking in many more highly educated foreigners with middle-income salary! (but instead, now they are slowing foreigners' intake in this category to a halt!).
If resale HDB flats don't increase in price, most potential HDB upgraders would not have made much money from their BTO HDB flats to be able to easily upgrade to private properties!
If middle-income working population don't increase, OCR private property prices is unlikely to increase much, given that Singapore's economy is going to grow average 1-3% going forward over the long-term and hence you can only expect salary increase of average 1-3% p.a. and hence you can be sure that OCR private property price would likely only increase average 1-3% going forward...... If you add in all the expenses for owning private properties, conclusion is: OCR private properties is no longer worthy of "investment", but only for self-consumption (which probably most HDB heartlanders also can't afford)!
But your key point had become history.......
Previously, Singapore private property prices rise rapidly, particularly in OCR, is because Singapore government allows many foreigners of middle-income salary (not the high-end type) coming to Singapore to work, become PR, brought their whole family here (from their home country) and buying OCR private properties to live in (they can't buy new HDB flats).
Given that foreigners' intake allowed by Government has trickle to such small number (because they want "Singapore core" workforce - based on what they sensed/were told majority Singaporeans wanted), coupled with very slow GDP growth and a lot of economic uncertainty and hence insecurity in jobs (higher risk of retrenchment anytime), significantly over-priced OCR private property prices now, little prospect of much monetary upside of Singaporeans' HDB flats (and OCR private property prices), and further compounded by the property cooling measures, OCR private properties prices are just DEAD! I won't be surprise if their price didn't even rise above recent peak price for next 10 years...........
Most importantly, Mr Lee Kuan Yew is the one who strongly supported and willing to enforce "asset appreciation" (aka property appreciation) and see that this is achieved, and also believing that we should make the most hay while the sun shine (so if economy is strong and good, let the price appreciate!).
I don't think this property policy has been upheld by current government anymore - at least, I didn't see anybody in power still emphasizing (like Mr Lee) that their policy still focuses on "asset appreciation". Instead, what we see are pre-emptive property cooling measures to cool property prices quickly and strongly (which is the opposite of what Mr Lee had done/didn't do previously...........
properties appreciation is not the same with asset appreciation. If someone only have one property where He/She stay, then He/She never have asset appreciation.
I have also friends who missed 2009 and went on to buy in late 2011 and even early 2012. They are all regretting their decisions now.
Some of them bought resale and collecting rents still not so bad. The worst hit were those bought new and under construction projects. They not only not collecting rent over the last 5 years, they are now facing the risk of falling prices, rising interest rate, falling rental yield and even rentability issue. Of course my friends are not savvy investors. They followed the herd. I hope they will learn.
Regret? The current situation isn't market forces. It is entirely engineered by the govt. Basically they got screwed by the govt they voted for.
Amber Woods
10-04-16, 00:21
Regret? The current situation isn't market forces. It is entirely engineered by the govt. Basically they got screwed by the govt they voted for.
No, they did not listen to what the government said after GE 2011. They followed the herd.
proud owner
10-04-16, 00:51
Frankly, I think this article only serves 50% of the purpose and not really meaningful.
It shares certain valid points on the ppty market now but does not address if ppty is "no good" in current market, then what is writers' view on better alternatives. Is the writer advocating to go into stocks, bonds, commodity, currency or other instruments or simply to keep cash? Or maybe the writer is familiar with ppty market only and hence unable to offer alternatives, and may end up suggesting to keep cash?
If we are in a uncertain times, and ppty is no good obviously, then what is good? Definitely not stocks and bonds either. So is it time to sell all and buy into negative betas instruments only? Will the writer walks the talk?
If any of my staff comes and tell me his problems only, he is not a good staff. He needs to propose solutions or alternatives.
You are absolutely right.
Properties, Equities, Bonds ... all depend on the economies ...
when 1 is not doing well, chances are the other 2 also not doing any better...
Currencies on the other hand, whether economy is up or down, you can still trade on it.
The only time that it doesnt move is when there is Stagflation.
If there is Stagflation then properties bonds equities also not moving.
so comparing all these 4 investments... which one is more flexible ? not restricted by 'trading hours'?
not dependent on the state of the economy in order to make money ?
The answer is clear
Frankly, I think this article only serves 50% of the purpose and not really meaningful.
It shares certain valid points on the ppty market now but does not address if ppty is "no good" in current market, then what is writers' view on better alternatives. Is the writer advocating to go into stocks, bonds, commodity, currency or other instruments or simply to keep cash? Or maybe the writer is familiar with ppty market only and hence unable to offer alternatives, and may end up suggesting to keep cash?
If we are in a uncertain times, and ppty is no good obviously, then what is good? Definitely not stocks and bonds either. So is it time to sell all and buy into negative betas instruments only? Will the writer walks the talk?
If any of my staff comes and tell me his problems only, he is not a good staff. He needs to propose solutions or alternatives.
This is what I mean, at least you, P Owner and the rest have found what are good and suit you guys, being property or other investment so long making money and happy. Some are real stubborn. Real sad
You are absolutely right.
Properties, Equities, Bonds ... all depend on the economies ...
when 1 is not doing well, chances are the other 2 also not doing any better...
Currencies on the other hand, whether economy is up or down, you can still trade on it.
The only time that it doesnt move is when there is Stagflation.
If there is Stagflation then properties bonds equities also not moving.
so comparing all these 4 investments... which one is more flexible ? not restricted by 'trading hours'?
not dependent on the state of the economy in order to make money ?
The answer is clear
Yes agreed on the economy but not everyone know how to trade fx and win.
You are absolutely right.
Properties, Equities, Bonds ... all depend on the economies ...
when 1 is not doing well, chances are the other 2 also not doing any better...
Currencies on the other hand, whether economy is up or down, you can still trade on it.
The only time that it doesnt move is when there is Stagflation.
If there is Stagflation then properties bonds equities also not moving.
so comparing all these 4 investments... which one is more flexible ? not restricted by 'trading hours'?
not dependent on the state of the economy in order to make money ?
The answer is clear
Indeed i recognise FX is interesting. For those already in trading such derivatives in their daily job, this is their expertise and likely to do reasonably well.
For those trading FX, he needs to have a traders' mentality rather than an investment mentality. It is too taxing for someone like me at this moment, with a full time job and a young family, to be at a level to trade FX confidently to generate a meaningful return. I traded commodities before, on margins, similarly as demanding as FX and all trades have to be settled on the day and should never hold overnight.
A simpler way to simply to buy into other currencies in fixed deposits.
Regret? The current situation isn't market forces. It is entirely engineered by the govt. Basically they got screwed by the govt they voted for.
Do you mean the ppty price boom or the current correction due to the CMs are not market forces?
The Govt only asked you to rightsize your loans. In fact, in Oct 2014, Minister Khaw has said to consider affordability and whether you like it as the most important criterias. Watch from 3min 54s.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkcrOALv2nw
From 2006-2010, the vast majority of the herd was not able to respond in time to buy. Right now, Minister said already said can buy, but the vast majority of the herd are stalled or intimidated by members of the herd into inaction.
So who can blame the Govt (or the herd) when the current supply is exhausted?
No, they did not listen to what the government said after GE 2011. They followed the herd.
Well, other than FX, you can also do Futures, which also allows you to go long (when economy is up) or go short (when economy is down) and provide you with leverage. Another instrument is Options. The beauty of such instruments is that you can go along with the flow to make money, but NOT with stocks. Obviously you can borrow scripts to short stocks but the cost is just too high and not worth it, and you don't have the advantage of leverage to begin with.
You are absolutely right.
Properties, Equities, Bonds ... all depend on the economies ...
when 1 is not doing well, chances are the other 2 also not doing any better...
Currencies on the other hand, whether economy is up or down, you can still trade on it.
The only time that it doesnt move is when there is Stagflation.
If there is Stagflation then properties bonds equities also not moving.
so comparing all these 4 investments... which one is more flexible ? not restricted by 'trading hours'?
not dependent on the state of the economy in order to make money ?
The answer is clear
Amber Woods
10-04-16, 11:34
The Govt only asked you to rightsize your loans. In fact, in Oct 2014, Minister Khaw has said to consider affordability and whether you like it as the most important criterias.
From 2006-2010, the vast majority of the herd was not able to respond in time to buy. Right now, Minister said already said can buy, but the vast majority of the herd are stalled or intimidated by members of the herd into inaction.
So who can blame the Govt (or the herd) when the current supply is exhausted?
In a booming market, it is the herd who chase after the prices and causing asset inflation. In a bear market, it is also the herd who cause major price correction.
The savvy investors are usually the first movers both in the bull and bear markets.
History always repeat itself because the man never learnt from past experience. Also new entrants to the market take time to learn hence make the same mistakes.
It is similar to the stock market. When uncles and aunties start to buy into the market, it is time to sell before prices rise to unstainable level. When uncles and aunties start to cut losses and sell, the savvy investors will be taking their picks as prices fall further.
It is happening now in CCR and RCR. It should be moving into OCR pretty soon.
That's why we are blessed by the hard actions taken since 2010. Most of the herds can't chase the price anymore by 2013, three years ago.
Any uncle and aunty would have been deterred since the LTV measures. But those set of measures that deterred the herd did not deter those savvy investors. And that's why all the bows and arrows came out by 2013 to deter even savvy investors from entering and overleveraging the system.
The least we can do is to be thankful for the opportunity to rightsize your loan according to income. One should be aware of you have rightsized yourself, because the govt obviously have stats on this very tightly regulated market. Definitely not uncle aunty share and stock story.
In a booming market, it is the herd who chase after the prices and causing asset inflation. In a bear market, it is also the herd who cause major price correction.
The savvy investors are usually the first movers both in the bull and bear markets.
History always repeat itself because the man never learnt from past experience. Also new entrants to the market take time to learn hence make the same mistakes.
It is similar to the stock market. When uncles and aunties start to buy into the market, it is time to sell before prices rise to unstainable level. When uncles and aunties start to cut losses and sell, the savvy investors will be taking their picks as prices fall further.
It is happening now in CCR and RCR. It should be moving into OCR pretty soon.
The day if and when hdb owners can no longer buy a private (and hold on to their hdb) will be a killer change.
Don't think anyone so smart to piss off 80% of his voter.
But your key point had become history.......
Previously, Singapore private property prices rise rapidly, particularly in OCR, is because Singapore government allows many foreigners of middle-income salary (not the high-end type) coming to Singapore to work, become PR, brought their whole family here (from their home country) and buying OCR private properties to live in (they can't buy new HDB flats).
Given that foreigners' intake allowed by Government has trickle to such small number (because they want "Singapore core" workforce - based on what they sensed/were told majority Singaporeans wanted), coupled with very slow GDP growth and a lot of economic uncertainty and hence insecurity in jobs (higher risk of retrenchment anytime), significantly over-priced OCR private property prices now, little prospect of much monetary upside of Singaporeans' HDB flats (and OCR private property prices), and further compounded by the property cooling measures, OCR private properties prices are just DEAD! I won't be surprise if their price didn't even rise above recent peak price for next 10 years...........
Look like most have forgotten about the white paper. http://population.sg/
Most importantly, Mr Lee Kuan Yew is the one who strongly supported and willing to enforce "asset appreciation" (aka property appreciation) and see that this is achieved, and also believing that we should make the most hay while the sun shine (so if economy is strong and good, let the price appreciate!).
I don't think this property policy has been upheld by current government anymore - at least, I didn't see anybody in power still emphasizing (like Mr Lee) that their policy still focuses on "asset appreciation". Instead, what we see are pre-emptive property cooling measures to cool property prices quickly and strongly (which is the opposite of what Mr Lee had done/didn't do previously...........
Have been away for close to 9 years, everywhere I go in Singapore made me want to buy more property. All the infrastructure,green space, water body, etc. The control measure is to get as many on the Boat as possible, once the boat starts to move it will be harder to get on. Property investment is not only for the rich with the control measure but to those who know what is going on. LHL have told everyone what is going to happen to Singapore in the next 50 years how many care to make use of the message and act on it.
Durian drop don't buy, Durian don't drop complain. If Bank can loan me money I will still go and buy.
Key highlights for the 2015 report include:
There were more citizen marriages and births in 2014. More than 24,000 citizen marriages were registered, the highest since 1997. There were more than 33,000 citizen births; this was, along with citizen births in 2012 (Dragon year), the highest across the last decade.
The citizen population grew at a similar pace as last year to 3.38 million, with citizen births and calibrated immigration. The citizen population continues to age, with 13.1% aged 65 and above compared with 12.4% last year. The permanent resident (PR) population remained stable at 0.53 million.
The growth in the non-resident population continued to slow (don't know why don't use grow or more than) to 2.1% in 2015, down from 2.9% in 2014. This was mainly due to a slowdown in foreign workforce growth.
Singapore’s total population was 5.54 million as of June 2015. The total population grew by 1.2% from June 2014 to June 2015, the slowest in more than a decade.
2007 HDB allow whole house rent out after MOP and stay in the private property for SC. Did you see something I saw in the chart.
https://www.ecitizen.gov.sg/Topics/Pages/Renting-out-your-HDB-flat-A-homeowners-guide.aspx
https://scontent-sin1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/12990936_10207248212496532_5318269849411144452_n.jpg?oh=e1652f9f8303ce026a331135fe8dcc6b&oe=5781E684
In a booming market, it is the herd who chase after the prices and causing asset inflation. In a bear market, it is also the herd who cause major price correction.
The savvy investors are usually the first movers both in the bull and bear markets.
History always repeat itself because the man never learnt from past experience. Also new entrants to the market take time to learn hence make the same mistakes.
It is similar to the stock market. When uncles and aunties start to buy into the market, it is time to sell before prices rise to unstainable level. When uncles and aunties start to cut losses and sell, the savvy investors will be taking their picks as prices fall further.
It is happening now in CCR and RCR. It should be moving into OCR pretty soon.
Do you intend to sell your properties now (save for the one you are staying in) and goes into bonds?
Or you had already done so?
Amber Woods
10-04-16, 14:27
Do you intend to sell your properties now (save for the one you are staying in) and goes into bonds?
Or you had already done so?
I am stating my views base on my observations of the market and nothing to do with my position in the market.
I am stating my views base on my observations of the market and nothing to do with my position in the market.
I see. It is hard to walk the talk.
walkthetiger
10-04-16, 14:30
In a booming market, it is the herd who chase after the prices and causing asset inflation. In a bear market, it is also the herd who cause major price correction.
The savvy investors are usually the first movers both in the bull and bear markets.
History always repeat itself because the man never learnt from past experience. Also new entrants to the market take time to learn hence make the same mistakes.
It is similar to the stock market. When uncles and aunties start to buy into the market, it is time to sell before prices rise to unstainable level. When uncles and aunties start to cut losses and sell, the savvy investors will be taking their picks as prices fall further.
It is happening now in CCR and RCR. It should be moving into OCR pretty soon.
The regular stubborn ones had followed those uncles and aunties, they too brought around the same time or slightly earlier, but they don't admit belonging the same group, they don't see themselves as herd too.
Their persistent views tell us they ain't investors with super sharp senses.... but it is just fortunate to know they still have enough money holding on to their investment properties...
"It is entirely engineered by the govt. Basically they got screwed by the govt".... Please be reminded 69.86% agreed.
The regular stubborn ones had followed those uncles and aunties, they too brought around the same time or slightly earlier, but they don't admit belonging the same group, they don't see themselves as herd too.
Their persistent views tell us they ain't investors with super sharp senses.... but it is just fortunate to know they still have enough money holding on to their investment properties...
"It is entirely engineered by the govt. Basically they got screwed by the govt".... Please be reminded 69.86% agreed.
What is entirely engineered by the govt and got screwed by the govt?
I see. It is hard to walk the talk.
I wouldn't say I am a excellent judgement of people, especially in online forums. But somehow, I feel very few forummers will walk the talk, with the exceptions of people like Arcachon (will buy another ppty anytime with loan), proud owner (strong believer in FX) and kelonguni (saving up to buy another ppty) that will indeed walk the talk... be it right or wrong judgmental call when they share their views.
Amber Woods
10-04-16, 14:49
I wouldn't say I am a excellent judgement of people, especially in online forums. But somehow, I feel very few forummers will walk the talk, with the exceptions of people like Arcachon (will buy another ppty anytime with loan), proud owner (strong believer in FX) and kelonguni (saving up to buy another ppty) that will indeed walk the talk... be it right or wrong judgmental call when they share their views.
That is why their views are geared toward their beliefs hence lack a sense of neutrality.
walkthetiger
10-04-16, 14:49
What is entirely engineered by the govt and got screwed by the govt?
"置于死地而后生" only chance....stubborn ones still didn't see it.. .. not sure if it is due to "怕輸", it seems they will do all and everything to avoid losing....waiting for better days...
That is why their views are geared toward their beliefs hence lack a sense of neutrality.
That's why they are different from you. They walk the talk, not you.
"置于死地而后生" only chance....stubborn ones still didn't see it.. .. not sure if it is due to "怕輸", it seems they will do all and everything to avoid losing....waiting for better days...
I am unable to grasp your reply to my question, probably not deep enough to understand.
Amber Woods
10-04-16, 14:53
That's why they are different from you. They walk the talk, not you.
Neutrality speaks what they view the market is likely to behave and not what they hope the market will behave.
Neutrality speaks what they view the market is likely to behave and not what they hope the market will behave.
We have noted your views. What actions, in brief, have you taken or will be taking?
Do you have any property(s) to begin with?
Amber Woods
10-04-16, 14:59
We have noted your views. What actions, in brief, have you taken or will be taking?
Do you have any property(s) to begin with?
Neutrality!
Neutrality!
Ok, I will take it that is alright to give theoretical textbook views and state neutrality at the end of the day.
It's easy to give theoretical predictions based on personal bias.
You need to see it for yourselves and find out the profiles of those really buying and not pretend you know that they are the common uncles and aunties.
The sales data and caveats are transparent and not make believe for those who can let go of personal bias and take a hard look at the market. My opinions are based on those I know and their moves.
3 friends, A, B & C, came to talk to me to offer me the same advice that stock Z is a sell.
Each of them holds 100 lots of stock Z.
Next day,
Friend A buy another 100 lots of stock Z
Friend B remain status quo, didn't buy anymore and didn't sell his holdings, he remain neutral
Friend C sells his 100 lots.
Soon after...
If stock Z goes up, friend A is a sly, friend B is being academic and doesn't walk the talk while friend C has credibility but had a wrong call.
If stock Z goes down, friend A is still a sly, friend B is also being academic and doesn't walk the talk while friend C has credibility and had a good call.
If such advice and actions are repeated in other advice/recommendations for other asset class, friends A and B will lose credibility, while friend C has credibility and you can then choose to follow friend C's future views depending on your judgement call on his views.
bargain hunter
10-04-16, 19:46
3 friends, A, B & C, came to talk to me to offer me the same advice that stock Z is a sell.
Each of them holds 100 lots of stock Z.
Next day,
Friend A buy another 100 lots of stock Z
Friend B remain status quo, didn't buy anymore and didn't sell his holdings, he remain neutral
Friend C sells his 100 lots.
Soon after...
If stock Z goes up, friend A is a sly, friend B is being academic and doesn't walk the talk while friend C has credibility but had a wrong call.
If stock Z goes down, friend A is still a sly, friend B is also being academic and doesn't walk the talk while friend C has credibility and had a good call.
If such advice and actions are repeated in other advice/recommendations for other asset class, friends A and B will lose credibility, while friend C has credibility and you can then choose to follow friend C's future views depending on your judgement call on his views.
but nowadays pple very sly. friend C can garner a huge following as u and his other friends start to spread about his credibility and good calls. then when he has enough following and has an opportunity, he will dua ALL of u dua kee dua kee. then he is the ultimate sly.............
but nowadays pple very sly. friend C can garner a huge following as u and his other friends start to spread about his credibility and good calls. then when he has enough following and has an opportunity, he will dua ALL of u dua kee dua kee. then he is the ultimate sly.............
You have a point in that scenario, there will be a select few who will do that. I would not bet against that.
It takes years to build up credibility, reputation and respect... if one has made it in life (say in terms of investments), he wouldn't turn into a sly overnight so easily when he has neared or reached the Self-Actualization in the Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, where he will no longer be motivated by monetary gains but a good name.
walkthetiger
10-04-16, 21:25
It's easy to give theoretical predictions based on personal bias.
You need to see it for yourselves and find out the profiles of those really buying and not pretend you know that they are the common uncles and aunties.
The sales data and caveats are transparent and not make believe for those who can let go of personal bias and take a hard look at the market. My opinions are based on those I know and their moves.
There are indeed a few in this forum who have quite good sense, but surely not those stubborn ones.... It is a thin line between sly and unwise .. hope you know who's advice and how to read it properly.. good luck.
Cyberknight
10-04-16, 22:22
There are people with good intentions to share. However the recipients simply do not get it either they have MTB, got a lousy unit, over leverage. Then, the good intended forummner will be challenged. The forummner disappeared away with their good intended advices. I do miss posts from Laguna, chestnut that gave this forum quality.
Who loses, the ones that sought for advice most....
My little sharing here is
1) population have to grow for properties to be occupied. I am not against the white paper
2) cash flow remains King, good properties, bad properties are never simply defined. But are you able to create cash yield without suffering from unyieldingly high leverage?
3) a property may be good for one investor but it may be terrible for another to emulate. Cos the time horizon and value are different.
4) be contrarian . It needs tonnes of research and a lot of analysis to model your personal situation and stick to your position. For me , I remained convinced that interest rates will likely remained Low and floating rate works for me. And I do have corrective strategies when interest rates move up significantly, which another person may not have the resources.
Cyberknight
10-04-16, 22:35
each one of us notices some things in our daily lives and makes decisions that another pax may not have seen. That will be his/her comparative advantage.
I have in my little journey bought a few properties and none of them are under undue stress and influence by the property agents, promotion brochures.
It is humbling when you listen/read more than Attack the opinion of others.
As for now, I am staying in a rented unit cos the px of the place where I want to stay in my opinion offers more value for my equity than buying it. Btw, it is an OCR property.
I see. It is hard to walk the talk.
This is an online forum. Where is the walk unless you can show proof of your walk otherwise it is still all talk.
This is an online forum. Where is the walk unless you can show proof of your walk otherwise it is still all talk.
You can choose to lie through your teeth by stating you walk the talk and cooking up stories. There are also people who talk and talk and also does not dare to lie that he is walking the talk.
That is fine. Everyone has a conscience, either a lowly one or an esteem one.
Luckily I am not motivated or demotivated by good or bad name. My motto already shows my stand clearly.
More important to me is to be right than to actually share. And to verify my underlying assumptions and predictions with others based on evidence and facts.
Bro Cyberknight is right. Know thyself first. Some people are just not suited for property even though property is suited for them.
There are people with good intentions to share. However the recipients simply do not get it either they have MTB, got a lousy unit, over leverage. Then, the good intended forummner will be challenged. The forummner disappeared away with their good intended advices. I do miss posts from Laguna, chestnut that gave this forum quality.
Who loses, the ones that sought for advice most....
My little sharing here is
1) population have to grow for properties to be occupied. I am not against the white paper
2) cash flow remains King, good properties, bad properties are never simply defined. But are you able to create cash yield without suffering from unyieldingly high leverage?
3) a property may be good for one investor but it may be terrible for another to emulate. Cos the time horizon and value are different.
4) be contrarian . It needs tonnes of research and a lot of analysis to model your personal situation and stick to your position. For me , I remained convinced that interest rates will likely remained Low and floating rate works for me. And I do have corrective strategies when interest rates move up significantly, which another person may not have the resources.
I share similar opinions as you.
On top of this, i fully agree that cash flow is king and floating rate is for me at this current market.
There are people with good intentions to share. However the recipients simply do not get it either they have MTB, got a lousy unit, over leverage. Then, the good intended forummner will be challenged. The forummner disappeared away with their good intended advices. I do miss posts from Laguna, chestnut that gave this forum quality.
Who loses, the ones that sought for advice most....
My little sharing here is
1) population have to grow for properties to be occupied. I am not against the white paper
2) cash flow remains King, good properties, bad properties are never simply defined. But are you able to create cash yield without suffering from unyieldingly high leverage?
3) a property may be good for one investor but it may be terrible for another to emulate. Cos the time horizon and value are different.
4) be contrarian . It needs tonnes of research and a lot of analysis to model your personal situation and stick to your position. For me , I remained convinced that interest rates will likely remained Low and floating rate works for me. And I do have corrective strategies when interest rates move up significantly, which another person may not have the resources.
You can choose to lie through your teeth by stating you walk the talk and cooking up stories. There are also people who talk and talk and also does not dare to lie that he is walking the talk.
That is fine. Everyone has a conscience, either a lowly one or an esteem one.
And that's still talk. No walk.
Whatever one chooses, just need to be extra careful about scams floating around. Tree investments, Brazil investments etc, lots of scams...
As long as one steers clear of those, gains or losses won't be whole sum losses. As long as one is comfortable with one particular type compatible with his/her lifestyle, no need to worry what others say.
I share similar opinions as you.
On top of this, i fully agree that cash flow is king and floating rate is for me at this current market.
1. Firstly, the population white paper is a plan, and they need to have the infrastructure in place.
MRT every week breakdown, means infrastructure not in place.....
And, economy must be good then can have sufficient jobs to take in more foreigners. However, as of now, foreigners intake tightened up to emphasize on "Singaporean core", means not following population white paper (as of now).........
2. 50 years from now? Who knows, there are only about 3.5m citizens out of about 5.5m population in Singapore now, if there is war, foreigners & PRs will run away leaving Singapore citizens to defend Singapore (not to mention probably many Singaporeans also will run away)...........
Not to mention war, even if Singapore's economy decline, foreigners and PRs and even Singaporeans will be leaving Singapore because jobs disappearing, then what will happen to Singapore property price??? No brainers........... :hopelessness:
Look like most have forgotten about the white paper. http://population.sg/
Have been away for close to 9 years, everywhere I go in Singapore made me want to buy more property. All the infrastructure,green space, water body, etc. The control measure is to get as many on the Boat as possible, once the boat starts to move it will be harder to get on. Property investment is not only for the rich with the control measure but to those who know what is going on. LHL have told everyone what is going to happen to Singapore in the next 50 years how many care to make use of the message and act on it.
proud owner
11-04-16, 00:59
each one of us notices some things in our daily lives and makes decisions that another pax may not have seen. That will be his/her comparative advantage.
I have in my little journey bought a few properties and none of them are under undue stress and influence by the property agents, promotion brochures.
It is humbling when you listen/read more than Attack the opinion of others.
As for now, I am staying in a rented unit cos the px of the place where I want to stay in my opinion offers more value for my equity than buying it. Btw, it is an OCR property.
I like your opening statement...
Different people has different interpretation of a similar piece of news..
Exactly like in FX trading.
A news flashes ...... some will BUY .... some will Sell ... some will watch and do nothing.
This is what I call ... forming your own trading view.
Base on your view , put on a trade.... watch your risk .....
If your view is Right, you will make a lot of money
If your view is Wrong, you will NOT lose very much ...IF YOU WATCH YOUR RISK.
Know your Profit level, Your STOP level. You will be fine
And that's still talk. No walk.
I hope all your family, relatives, friends, colleagues and business associates do show your proofs and open book with you in all their talks, otherwise all of them will face credibility issues with you.
Whether one walk the talk or not is ok, most importantly talk with some senses and sincerity. I believe some are here to learn. Some football manager can't kick well too but he can manage and talk well.
Whether one walk the talk or not is ok, most importantly talk with some senses and sincerity. I believe some are here to learn. Some football manager can't kick well too but he can manage and talk well.
I am glad you do not have friends, like friend A and B (and the select few ultimate sly in friend C).
I like your opening statement...
Different people has different interpretation of a similar piece of news..
Exactly like in FX trading.
A news flashes ...... some will BUY .... some will Sell ... some will watch and do nothing.
This is what I call ... forming your own trading view.
Base on your view , put on a trade.... watch your risk .....
If your view is Right, you will make a lot of money
If your view is Wrong, you will NOT lose very much ...IF YOU WATCH YOUR RISK.
Know your Profit level, Your STOP level. You will be fine
Bro, can you show me proof that you are indeed walking the talk and trading FX and generating like $5-10k monthly?
Just kidding, i dun need that.
Let's not descend too far into personal attacks (if any) or insignificant issues.
The Internet is one way in which like-minded brains get to interact. Otherwise, we would be too far and too sparse to learn from each other physically.
Back to the same point I reiterated since I first joined this forum when people were doubting HDBs and hot on condos. For self stay, nothing comes close to HDB in PSF, location, amenities etc. But if your finances grow much more than that HDB mortgage you used to worry and lament about, the only way forward is to consider private properties (either singly or multiple), and that's when people start feeling emotional about its up and down.
If your first property is private, I have nothing to comment. Ha...
Bro, can you show me proof that you are indeed walking the talk and trading FX and generating like $5-10k monthly?
Just kidding, i dun need that.
It's possible, i tried using with 10 k.. between 2009~2011year(forgotten exact year).
In a month 10~12k gains..
saxobank acct.. I think mentioned in earlier years ago abt FX
It's possible, i tried using with 10 k.. between 2009~2011year(forgotten exact year).
In a month 10~12k gains..
saxobank acct.. I think mentioned in earlier years ago abt FX
I do not doubt you on this. This is one instrument i would like to be a master in.
I do not doubt you on this. This is one instrument i would like to be a master in.
I lazy to debate online over anything recently, also lazy to clarify for proudowner.
somehow this goes deeper, so just to clarify FX.
i do had a frd came back from Aussie, can apply for pilot.. somehow told me abt FX, and got good track records, to trade for client for commission.. And they won't teach.
Last heard from him 2-3yrs ago, cause talk so much on FX.. refusing to teach even more.. Really a PCB..
"置于死地而后生" only chance....stubborn ones still didn't see it.. .. not sure if it is due to "怕輸", it seems they will do all and everything to avoid losing....waiting for better days...
Applying an ancient art of war "know how" into managing this:
Know thyself (own strengths) Know thy enemies (own weakness)
Thousands battle fought, thousands won.
Property, stocks, bonds whichever one can harness well, still depends on their personalities.
Eg. Knew of someone quite liquid who bought $5k worth of a stock but need to monitor everyday, anxious and close to losing sleep over... Pretty pointless as this is a safe haven profile person. Better off with fixed income guaranteed kind of instrument.
Also seen one millionaire who only has fixed deposition SG and Us,Aus currencies.. Lived a very frugal lifestyle and single, basic financial goal is to earn enough to afford to stay in a retirement village concept place like care home, in SG, Malaysia or US.
Of course, also very fortunate to meet online gurus here to share their views on investment based on their experience esp. Properties which is something more suitable for me. If I have liquidity to invest in stocks, will probably ask a learnt and trusted remisier to manage a sum of say $100-200k. Will also keep intend to keep $300-400k very liquid as a bullet for the next opportunity for property downpyment in SG. That is if there is 500k liquid now which I do not have (; But that would be a possible strategy for me. Simply Singaporean type investor.
........
2. 50 years from now? ..........
Not to mention war, even if Singapore's economy decline, foreigners and PRs and even Singaporeans will be leaving Singapore because jobs disappearing, then what will happen to Singapore property price??? No brainers........... :hopelessness:
The 2nd scenario could have happened 50 years ago if not for a group of pioneer Singaporeans who has walked the talk.
bargain hunter
11-04-16, 10:21
Applying an ancient art of war "know how" into managing this:
Know thyself (own strengths) Know thy enemies (own weakness)
Thousands battle fought, thousands won.
Property, stocks, bonds whichever one can harness well, still depends on their personalities.
Eg. Knew of someone quite liquid who bought $5k worth of a stock but need to monitor everyday, anxious and close to losing sleep over... Pretty pointless as this is a safe haven profile person. Better off with fixed income guaranteed kind of instrument.
Also seen one millionaire who only has fixed deposition SG and Us,Aus currencies.. Lived a very frugal lifestyle and single, basic financial goal is to earn enough to afford to stay in a retirement village concept place like care home, in SG, Malaysia or US.
Of course, also very fortunate to meet online gurus here to share their views on investment based on their experience esp. Properties which is something more suitable for me. If I have liquidity to invest in stocks, will probably ask a learnt and trusted remisier to manage a sum of say $100-200k. Will also keep intend to keep $300-400k very liquid as a bullet for the next opportunity for property downpyment in SG. That is if there is 500k liquid now which I do not have (; But that would be a possible strategy for me. Simply Singaporean type investor.
remisiers r not supposed to manage money. besides, chances r, they will front run u in the trades.
Who knows? It could happen 50 years later if there are no successors who can walk the talk and put country first before their self-interest............
The 2nd scenario could have happened 50 years ago if not for a group of pioneer Singaporeans who has walked the talk.
proud owner,
Can share your view, in brief, what you think if we buy into aussie dollar cash or instruments and hold for say 3 years? I'm betting on the commodity will bring up the aussie dollar. or you wouldn't be keen in such foreign currency instrument and would only trade FX.
My gut feel is that successful FX traders would snub the miniscule gains or losses holding something for 3 years.
From Investopedia: What are you really selling or buying in the currency market?
The short answer is "nothing". The retail FX market is purely a speculative market. No physical exchange of currencies ever takes place. All trades exist simply as computer entries and are netted out depending on market price. For dollar-denominated accounts, all profits or losses are calculated in dollars and recorded as such on the trader's account.
The primary reason the FX market exists is to facilitate the exchange of one currency into another for multinational corporations that need to trade currencies continually (for example, for payroll, payment for costs of goods and services from foreign vendors, and merger and acquisition activity). However, these day-to-day corporate needs comprise only about 20% of the market volume. Fully 80% of trades in the currency market are speculative in nature, put on by large financial institutions, multibillion dollar hedge funds and even individuals who want to express their opinions on the economic and geopolitical events of the day.
proud owner,
Can share your view, in brief, what you think if we buy into aussie dollar cash or instruments and hold for say 3 years? I'm betting on the commodity will bring up the aussie dollar. or you wouldn't be keen in such foreign currency instrument and would only trade FX.
Who knows? It could happen 50 years later if there are no successors who can walk the talk and put country first before their self-interest............
Agree, always vote wisely with both eyes wide open... Country before self... That is also not easy to assess... Up north is so obvious but seems to be in absolute power, down south is showing lots of integrity as a leader (imo) but has to fight a popularity war to continue to lead.... National leadership may need to evolve to a new model... Not longer the western democratic style, socialist form, even DPRK prob consider themselves "democratic"...
Interesting... A ex colleague from Britain mentioned that as a former colony, citizens here still retain the rights to vote for a party in their election.... Showed me some constitution in the net which I did not bother to remember... So not that you would but you could.
proud owner
11-04-16, 20:25
It's possible, i tried using with 10 k.. between 2009~2011year(forgotten exact year).
In a month 10~12k gains..
saxobank acct.. I think mentioned in earlier years ago abt FX
Thank you bro for supporting my "walk the talk"...
with the right skill set and discipline, 10k a mth ... 2 to 3 hrs a day ... is highly possible ...
i should say achievable
proud owner
11-04-16, 20:30
I lazy to debate online over anything recently, also lazy to clarify for proudowner.
somehow this goes deeper, so just to clarify FX.
i do had a frd came back from Aussie, can apply for pilot.. somehow told me abt FX, and got good track records, to trade for client for commission.. And they won't teach.
Last heard from him 2-3yrs ago, cause talk so much on FX.. refusing to teach even more.. Really a PCB..
Look out online .... website coming soon ......
A 5 to 10 a group course on Trading ...
Set up by 2 Hedge fund Owner/Trader + 1 Investment banker
All 3 early retirees ....
Providing coaching and "how to trade" ....
Thank you bro for supporting my "walk the talk"...
with the right skill set and discipline, 10k a mth ... 2 to 3 hrs a day ... is highly possible ...
i should say achievable
I would say, it's too much of a excitement for a beginner to handle alone.. i had a frd by my side that time.
FX indeed eye opener for me, at that time.
This man loves Singapore as much as Arcachon. But he is not even a Singaporean!
http://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/i-want-to-show-my-love-for-singapore-says-taiwanese-man-who-made-video-showing-60-local
I want to show my love for Singapore, says Taiwanese man who made video showing 60 local landmarks
Mr Liu Kuan Ting at the Alive Museum in Suntec City.PHOTO: LIU KUAN TING
PUBLISHED1 HOUR AGO
Sanjay Nair
SINGAPORE - A Taiwanese man who lives in Singapore has produced a clip of his visits to more than 60 local landmarks and said he did it out of love for his adopted home.
Mr Liu Kuan Ting, 30, spent three months putting together the 15-minute montage, which features his excursions across Singapore starting from 2012.
The video, which the self-taught Mr Liu said he made himself, has been shared more than 1,000 times on Facebook since it was first posted on March 29.
Having worked in Singapore for nearly four years, the web programmer decided just before the National Day Parade in August 2015 to create his own visual ode to the island's unique sights and sounds.
"I thought there was no better way to show my friends and family in Taiwan why Singapore is so special and has many places worth exploring - words alone are not enough," Mr Liu, who lives by himself in a Choa Chu Kang rental flat, told The Straits Times on Tuesday (April 12).
"I had no idea how to make a video before, so I learnt some new editing skills along the way too. It may not look professional, but I hope my love for Singapore shows through."
Mr Liu, a graduate of the Ming Chuan University in Taipei, said he did all his own filming and editing, adding in background music from the likes of Coldplay to "suit the scenery".
On his days off from work, he made it a point to visit attractions such as Gardens by the Bay, River Safari and Jurong Bird Park. He also took in last year's Formula One night race, the Singapore Night Festival and the Golden Jubilee celebrations at Marina Bay.
Uniquely Singaporean stuff such as $1 ice cream vendors, the Dragon Playground and brightly coloured HDB buildings were also on his itinerary.
His video has earned many positive reviews.
"You probably went (to) more places (and) participated in more events than a typical S'porean. Everytime I thought, hmm, maybe he hasn't been to this place, the image of the place will appear. Very impressive," Facebook user Maggie Chow posted on Mr Liu's page.
Alison Lee added: "Singapore Tourism Board (STB) should seriously consider using your clip, thank you for showing us the beauty of Singapore that we often (take) for granted."
The Straits Times has contacted STB for a comment.
Buoyed by the responses, Mr Liu is already planning his next project.
"I want to show the best of Singapore food, from hawker centres to restaurants to food courts. I just hope I don't eat too much along the way," he quipped.
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