View Full Version : City fringe condos
aspirations
18-07-17, 23:50
i basically have a simple question - whys there such a huge difference in the price of city fringe condos, given that they're all considered to be on the fringe of the city? lets see one example that immediately came to mind today while reading the papers.
today's straits times said Commonwealth towers sold 40+ units over the past months at $1899 psf average. wow? queenstown at almost $1900?! redhill (echelon) was $2000-2100 psf at its peak? whys the psf so high for this section of the city fringe?
then for comparison, look at eight riversuites at boon keng or those at potong pasir ($1300-1500 psf). isnt D12/13 kinda ok as well? agree that its not as atas. but would u really pay $500 psf more for redhill/ queenstown?
can i hear some of your views? im quite puzzled. why is redhill/ queenstown so superior and boon keng/ potong pasir lagging behind so much?
You need to go to the place to feel it.
When Southbank TOP I also don't understand how can a 2 Bedroom rent for 4K a month until I was there.
i basically have a simple question - whys there such a huge difference in the price of city fringe condos, given that they're all considered to be on the fringe of the city? lets see one example that immediately came to mind today while reading the papers.
today's straits times said Commonwealth towers sold 40+ units over the past months at $1899 psf average. wow? queenstown at almost $1900?! redhill (echelon) was $2000-2100 psf at its peak? whys the psf so high for this section of the city fringe?
then for comparison, look at eight riversuites at boon keng or those at potong pasir ($1300-1500 psf). isnt D12/13 kinda ok as well? agree that its not as atas. but would u really pay $500 psf more for redhill/ queenstown?
can i hear some of your views? im quite puzzled. why is redhill/ queenstown so superior and boon keng/ potong pasir lagging behind so much?
doesnt it ring a bell to you to invest in D12/13 den ??? lol
Should just go live there for some time to know, all kind of reasons...............
Sometimes, the people living in there also matters.................
i basically have a simple question - whys there such a huge difference in the price of city fringe condos, given that they're all considered to be on the fringe of the city? lets see one example that immediately came to mind today while reading the papers.
today's straits times said Commonwealth towers sold 40+ units over the past months at $1899 psf average. wow? queenstown at almost $1900?! redhill (echelon) was $2000-2100 psf at its peak? whys the psf so high for this section of the city fringe?
then for comparison, look at eight riversuites at boon keng or those at potong pasir ($1300-1500 psf). isnt D12/13 kinda ok as well? agree that its not as atas. but would u really pay $500 psf more for redhill/ queenstown?
can i hear some of your views? im quite puzzled. why is redhill/ queenstown so superior and boon keng/ potong pasir lagging behind so much?
tonymontana
19-07-17, 09:14
i basically have a simple question - whys there such a huge difference in the price of city fringe condos, given that they're all considered to be on the fringe of the city? lets see one example that immediately came to mind today while reading the papers.
today's straits times said Commonwealth towers sold 40+ units over the past months at $1899 psf average. wow? queenstown at almost $1900?! redhill (echelon) was $2000-2100 psf at its peak? whys the psf so high for this section of the city fringe?
then for comparison, look at eight riversuites at boon keng or those at potong pasir ($1300-1500 psf). isnt D12/13 kinda ok as well? agree that its not as atas. but would u really pay $500 psf more for redhill/ queenstown?
can i hear some of your views? im quite puzzled. why is redhill/ queenstown so superior and boon keng/ potong pasir lagging behind so much?
check the rental contracts signed, then you have your answer.
but you can see this as PP having good value. It's up and coming, the next city fringe atas place.
i also consider parts of D15 to have good value at today's market prices.
as for areas around bendemeer/ moonstone side, it's a bit chaotic and rundown.
tonymontana
19-07-17, 09:22
Should just go live there for some time to know, all kind of reasons...............
Sometimes, the people living in there also matters.................
holland road, bukit timah, i can understand. queenstown/ redhill, less so. it looks like any other city fringe area to me.
but currently the rental is strong (comparatively speaking).
at 2000psf, queenstown/redhill is at 1000 years peak price, isn't it. based on your theory, i shouldn't invest there. too ex already.
tonymontana
19-07-17, 09:26
the other "cheaper" RCR is balestier road area. some people don't mind the slightly sleazy feel of the area. and of course the perennial favourite for investors - Geylang
I interpret it as the East-West travel (MRT and roads) travel being more comfortable at Queenstown / Redhill area rather than North-South travel from Potong Pasir.
Being situated between two CBDs also appears as a strategic advantage, on top of the future business developments at Queenstown area.
check the rental contracts signed, then you have your answer.
but you can see this as PP having good value. It's up and coming, the next city fringe atas place.
i also consider parts of D15 to have good value at today's market prices.
as for areas around bendemeer/ moonstone side, it's a bit chaotic and rundown.
with recent government land bidding exercise tat attracted 2 plots of land to be bidded at $1181psf and $1100psf....matter of time PP will catch up
PP/ boon keng to town takes 8-10mins through the highway
PropVestor
19-07-17, 10:40
holland road, bukit timah, i can understand. queenstown/ redhill, less so. it looks like any other city fringe area to me.
but currently the rental is strong (comparatively speaking).
at 2000psf, queenstown/redhill is at 1000 years peak price, isn't it. based on your theory, i shouldn't invest there. too ex already.
There are 1,000 personal and other reasons why QT and RH is maybe at 1,000 year historical prices. There are also probably 1,000 other choices which you can consider so as to avoid this 1,000 year peak prices especially slightly further at OCR areas where more than a 1,000 buyers have bought at 1,000 historical peak.
1K nonsense, just kidding...happy mid week
PropVestor
tonymontana
19-07-17, 10:41
with recent government land bidding exercise tat attracted 2 plots of land to be bidded at $1181psf and $1100psf....matter of time PP will catch up
PP will be nicer after shops at venue and then poiz are up. rejuvenation now in fullswing for that area
PropVestor
19-07-17, 10:42
the other "cheaper" RCR is balestier road area. some people don't mind the slightly sleazy feel of the area. and of course the perennial favourite for investors - Geylang
I would recommend Park Place Residence but it is not for sale. It is also at 1,000 year historic peak prices (sorry, I just have to do it).
1K nonsense continues...
PropVestor
tonymontana
19-07-17, 10:43
There are 1,000 personal and other reasons why QT and RH is maybe at 1,000 year historical prices. There are also probably 1,000 other choices which you can consider so as to avoid this 1,000 year peak prices especially slightly further at OCR areas where more than a 1,000 buyers have bought at 1,000 historical peak.
1K nonsense, just kidding...happy mid week
PropVestor
happy 1,000th year peak price salutations to you as well , propvestor!
Based on my experience, I am sure that many of the THOUSAND buyers at who bought their OCR properties at THOUSAND years historical peak are going to burnt their trousers in coming property price crash.............. :tongue-new:
There are 1,000 personal and other reasons why QT and RH is maybe at 1,000 year historical prices. There are also probably 1,000 other choices which you can consider so as to avoid this 1,000 year peak prices especially slightly further at OCR areas where more than a 1,000 buyers have bought at 1,000 historical peak.
1K nonsense, just kidding...happy mid week
PropVestor
Based on my experience, I am sure that many of the THOUSAND buyers at who bought their OCR properties at THOUSAND years historical peak are going to burnt their trousers in coming property price crash.............. :tongue-new:
With TDSR can crash 40% still ok.
PropVestor
19-07-17, 11:04
i basically have a simple question - whys there such a huge difference in the price of city fringe condos, given that they're all considered to be on the fringe of the city? lets see one example that immediately came to mind today while reading the papers.
today's straits times said Commonwealth towers sold 40+ units over the past months at $1899 psf average. wow? queenstown at almost $1900?! redhill (echelon) was $2000-2100 psf at its peak? whys the psf so high for this section of the city fringe?
then for comparison, look at eight riversuites at boon keng or those at potong pasir ($1300-1500 psf). isnt D12/13 kinda ok as well? agree that its not as atas. but would u really pay $500 psf more for redhill/ queenstown?
can i hear some of your views? im quite puzzled. why is redhill/ queenstown so superior and boon keng/ potong pasir lagging behind so much?
My view is this on their location differences. Redhill and Queenstown are in a tight cluster of mature estate closer to Orchard (Tanglin Road is a huge plus for them), One North and yet few stops to CBD. Not to mention good schools are nearby too which parents will pay top dollar to be in this vicinity if they cannot afford Bukit Timah area. They drive rental and help pique investor interest. Their upkeep in prices is also partly driven by the high number of HDBs which historically command a high premium. I think there are $900K HDB transacted in QT before.
If you look at Potong Pasir and Boon Keng, their location though close to city, they do not have such heavyweight factors. I call PP a 'nearer Kovan'. Boon Keng is somewhat an odd ball of very old HDBs and industrial parks. It is not exactly a very good mix. However, I see Potong Pasir being more exciting in future but probably still secondary to RH and QT in the west.
2 cents,
PropVestor
anythingwhatever
19-07-17, 12:44
My view is this on their location differences. Redhill and Queenstown are in a tight cluster of mature estate closer to Orchard (Tanglin Road is a huge plus for them), One North and yet few stops to CBD. Not to mention good schools are nearby too which parents will pay top dollar to be in this vicinity if they cannot afford Bukit Timah area. They drive rental and help pique investor interest. Their upkeep in prices is also partly driven by the high number of HDBs which historically command a high premium. I think there are $900K HDB transacted in QT before.
If you look at Potong Pasir and Boon Keng, their location though close to city, they do not have such heavyweight factors. I call PP a 'nearer Kovan'. Boon Keng is somewhat an odd ball of very old HDBs and industrial parks. It is not exactly a very good mix. However, I see Potong Pasir being more exciting in future but probably still secondary to RH and QT in the west.
2 cents,
PropVestor
Agree.
And the 1000 Ears Peek Prize. :)
aspirations
19-07-17, 12:50
My view is this on their location differences. Redhill and Queenstown are in a tight cluster of mature estate closer to Orchard (Tanglin Road is a huge plus for them), One North and yet few stops to CBD. Not to mention good schools are nearby too which parents will pay top dollar to be in this vicinity if they cannot afford Bukit Timah area. They drive rental and help pique investor interest. Their upkeep in prices is also partly driven by the high number of HDBs which historically command a high premium. I think there are $900K HDB transacted in QT before.
If you look at Potong Pasir and Boon Keng, their location though close to city, they do not have such heavyweight factors. I call PP a 'nearer Kovan'. Boon Keng is somewhat an odd ball of very old HDBs and industrial parks. It is not exactly a very good mix. However, I see Potong Pasir being more exciting in future but probably still secondary to RH and QT in the west.
2 cents,
PropVestor
ok, that said.. do u think QT/ RH is worth $500 psf more than PP/ BK??
I do not like balestier cos its messy and sleazy as mentioned before. same for geylang (no doubt lots of FH condos there)
of course theres bishan/ braddell but also not cheap - and while considered city fringe they're somewhat more far flung
With TDSR quite many of these people will have no spare cash to get them through the winter period without their property being forced sold!
The next "winter" is expected to be very very CHILLING and LONG!
With TDSR can crash 40% still ok.
With TDSR quite many of these people will have no spare cash to get them through the winter period without their property being forced sold!
The next "winter" is expected to be very very CHILLING and LONG!
I fully agree that the next "winter" is going to be very very long and COLD...just thinking of when....
With TDSR quite many of these people will have no spare cash to get them through the winter period without their property being forced sold!
The next "winter" is expected to be very very CHILLING and LONG!
I fully agree that the next "winter" is going to be very very long and COLD...just thinking of when....but must prepare NOW.
In fact, if the next few enbloc and GLS did not see high prices, or for enbloc, fail attempts...then things would be very much difference
and the price for those 99LH and >30 years will drop much faster
There are too many enbloc exercises now, many will not be able to find takers
Not so fast yet, likely has been delayed by a few years (from normal cycle because of all the gerrymandering going on), got to be patience because it is going to be long enough for many goondus to jump into the bandwagon to buy OCR private properties at even higher THOUSAND YEARS historical peak price! The thing is, prices will just go higher for a while in some locations (like OCR especially).
For me, my experience tells me that don't buy just "hoping" to enbloc, enbloc is just a bonus!
And buy property with the aim to hold for >100 years, and we will definitely come out better 20-30 years down the road than tearing hairs trying to flip to raise money (because of need or better investment opportunity) while the cool long winter is raging..............
I fully agree that the next "winter" is going to be very very long and COLD...just thinking of when....but must prepare NOW.
In fact, if the next few enbloc and GLS did not see high prices, or for enbloc, fail attempts...then things would be very much difference
and the price for those 99LH and >30 years will drop much faster
There are too many enbloc exercises now, many will not be able to find takers
Not so fast yet, likely has been delayed by a few years (from normal cycle because of all the gerrymandering going on), got to be patience because it is going to be long enough for many goondus to jump into the bandwagon to buy OCR private properties at even higher THOUSAND YEARS historical peak price! The thing is, prices will just go higher for a while in some locations (like OCR especially).
For me, my experience tells me that don't buy just "hoping" to enbloc, enbloc is just a bonus!
And buy property with the aim to hold for >100 years, and we will definitely come out better 20-30 years down the road than tearing hairs trying to flip to raise money (because of need or better investment opportunity) while the cool long winter is raging..............
Hi...Bear Bear
I have completed the mission on enbloc game...and now sitting tight on liquid assets...I am looking at around late 2018....please give us a thinker when the warning bell is ringing
This boat will leave the harbour ever so slowly, but it will not come back for anyone.
Hi...Bear Bear
I have completed the mission on enbloc game...and now sitting tight on liquid assets...I am looking at around late 2018....please give us a thinker when the warning bell is ringing
There are hordes of those in these shoes, and some of them are buying up several per property enblocced.
anythingwhatever
19-07-17, 14:03
This boat will leave the harbour ever so slowly, but it will not come back for anyone.
Those wishing for another 20% crash maybe can wait long long... :)
Hi...Bear Bear
I have completed the mission on enbloc game...and now sitting tight on liquid assets...I am looking at around late 2018....please give us a thinker when the warning bell is ringing
Its an intriguing notion we can cash in our properties and wait out for the next market crash. I always though the good properties don't get wiped out in the crash, only the less desirable one. From my experience people that use this strategy only get pushed out further from the central location.
ok, that said.. do u think QT/ RH is worth $500 psf more than PP/ BK??
I do not like balestier cos its messy and sleazy as mentioned before. same for geylang (no doubt lots of FH condos there)
of course theres bishan/ braddell but also not cheap - and while considered city fringe they're somewhat more far flung
I think the new developments in PP by SPH & CEL will see the price gap narrow somewhat.
PropVestor
19-07-17, 14:51
ok, that said.. do u think QT/ RH is worth $500 psf more than PP/ BK??
I do not like balestier cos its messy and sleazy as mentioned before. same for geylang (no doubt lots of FH condos there)
of course theres bishan/ braddell but also not cheap - and while considered city fringe they're somewhat more far flung
When you start talking psf difference, its all down to micro-location, facing, floor height etc. Geylang and Park Place is pretty close but psf difference is significant. In short, I am paying 1,000 year historic peak prices for D14 (shame on me). I think suspect QT and PP will take over my trophy very soon based on recent land bids and so let me 'bear hug' this trophy longer. Perhaps you should already have a few condos in your consideration set which you can list out and compare. We can give our 2 cents.
My current portfolio are CCR and RCR condos only so perhaps you should look at your overall portfolio objectives as well. What is the mix and how do they complement one another. Consider your risk spread and tenant mix-yield. I believe you do live pretty close to me and you know quite a fair bit in the South-Eastern Singapore properties. Play in a table where it is more familiar to you? D15 has plenty to offer still.
All the best,
PropVestor
20%? Nah!
I believe the CRASH will be close to more than -35% in OCR.......
Those wishing for another 20% crash maybe can wait long long... :)
20%? Nah!
I believe the CRASH will be close to more than -35% in OCR.......
Can anyone sell his property, keep the cash for 1 years and come back with the same amount of cash and come knocking on the door to buy the same place with the same amount of money he got 1 year ago?
I never see anyone able to do that....even in the worst of recession. There are always reasons of inflation, holding power, personal preference, finance requirements, etc that unable u to get back what u let go. In another word....cashing in and buying back in is always a downgrade if u don't add more cash.
Amber Woods
19-07-17, 16:18
Can anyone sell his property, keep the cash for 1 years and come back with the same amount of cash and come knocking on the door to buy the same place with the same amount of money he got 1 year ago?
I never see anyone able to do that....even in the worst of recession. There are always reasons of inflation, holding power, personal preference, finance requirements, etc that unable u to get back what u let go. In another word....cashing in and buying back in is always a downgrade if u don't add more cash.
You and Arcachon always make the assumption that people who sell off their properties will keep cash thereafter. No savvy investors are like Arcachon who only know how to invest in property and nothing else.
What you said is true only in a continuous rising market. If you believe in cycles, then your position is flawed even with inflation taken into consideration.
You and Arcachon always make the assumption that people who sell off their properties will keep cash thereafter. No savvy investors are like Arcachon who only know how to invest in property and nothing else.
What you said is true only in a continuous rising market. If you believe in cycles, then your position is flawed even with inflation taken into consideration.
What I am saying cycle doesn't apply to individual case. As a whole we can see cycle as a trend. But for individual case when the cycle is down, doesn't necessarily means u can buy what u want at low price. There maybe plenty of cheap one that u don't want.
That why cashing in and waiting for low cycle is a bad strategy.
Amber Woods
19-07-17, 17:01
What I am saying cycle doesn't apply to individual case. As a whole we can see cycle as a trend. But for individual case when the cycle is down, doesn't necessarily means u can buy what u want at low price.
Buying at the wrong time and wrong location - lose money
Buying at the wrong time and right location - still lose money
Buying at the right time and right location - make money!
Buying at the right time and wrong location -still make money
Buying at the wrong time and wrong location - lose money
Buying at the wrong time and right location - still lose money
Buying at the right time and right location - make money!
Buying at the right time and wrong location -still make money
2013 right or wrong time?
2015 right or wrong time?
2017 right or wrong time?
How come I see people buy at wrong time still gain, and people buy at right time still lose???
Got money any time is the right time.
You and Arcachon always make the assumption that people who sell off their properties will keep cash thereafter. No savvy investors are like Arcachon who only know how to invest in property and nothing else.
What you said is true only in a continuous rising market. If you believe in cycles, then your position is flawed even with inflation taken into consideration.
So far already met two who sold and still waiting for some kind of fruit dropping.
aspirations
19-07-17, 17:50
well to be honest I'm vested in D12.. and so I'm hoping that it can ride on the recent soar in prices seen in the Queenstown/ red hill area. I bought my place about 5 years back.. rented it out for the past 1+ years.. but so far haven't seen much if any increase in PSF, which is a bit disheartening. Rental return about 2.8%. On the other hand, red hill and queens town is soaring (as in the new condos there). My cousin who's rich bought echelon high floor at $2k PSF- simply insane if u ask me. He also bought it maybe 2/3 years back? Dunno if he's made any paper profit yet though..
Right now since I'm a bit older and wiser (and richer haha).. I'm looking to sell my D12 condo and buy a better one, maybe around $2-2.2m. It's quite a lot of money I know.. but I'm young (still just 28) so I'm willing to stretch myself. My D12 unit is 95% paid up so if I do manage to sell it at cost price (which is fine w me) I will need to top it up by maybe 900k? I admit I come from a rather privileged background.. but I do work hard and save on wants.. my parents are also v supportive of the above plans. But what do u guys think? Too much too soon? Should I just be contented w what I have?
Currently living in D15, which is great.. but wanna explore other areas outside Katong :)
well to be honest I'm vested in D12.. and so I'm hoping that it can ride on the recent soar in prices seen in the Queenstown/ red hill area. I bought my place about 5 years back.. rented it out for the past 1+ years.. but so far haven't seen much if any increase in PSF, which is a bit disheartening. Rental return about 2.8%. On the other hand, red hill and queens town is soaring (as in the new condos there). My cousin who's rich bought echelon high floor at $2k PSF- simply insane if u ask me. He also bought it maybe 2/3 years back? Dunno if he's made any paper profit yet though..
Right now since I'm a bit older and wiser (and richer haha).. I'm looking to sell my D12 condo and buy a better one, maybe around $2-2.2m. It's quite a lot of money I know.. but I'm young (still just 28) so I'm willing to stretch myself. My D12 unit is 95% paid up so if I do manage to sell it at cost price (which is fine w me) I will need to top it up by maybe 900k? I admit I come from a rather privileged background.. but I do work hard and save on wants.. my parents are also v supportive of the above plans. But what do u guys think? Too much too soon? Should I just be contented w what I have?
Currently living in D15, which is great.. but wanna explore other areas outside Katong :)
Freehold Landed.
well to be honest I'm vested in D12.. and so I'm hoping that it can ride on the recent soar in prices seen in the Queenstown/ red hill area. I bought my place about 5 years back.. rented it out for the past 1+ years.. but so far haven't seen much if any increase in PSF, which is a bit disheartening. Rental return about 2.8%. On the other hand, red hill and queens town is soaring (as in the new condos there). My cousin who's rich bought echelon high floor at $2k PSF- simply insane if u ask me. He also bought it maybe 2/3 years back? Dunno if he's made any paper profit yet though..
Right now since I'm a bit older and wiser (and richer haha).. I'm looking to sell my D12 condo and buy a better one, maybe around $2-2.2m. It's quite a lot of money I know.. but I'm young (still just 28) so I'm willing to stretch myself. My D12 unit is 95% paid up so if I do manage to sell it at cost price (which is fine w me) I will need to top it up by maybe 900k? I admit I come from a rather privileged background.. but I do work hard and save on wants.. my parents are also v supportive of the above plans. But what do u guys think? Too much too soon? Should I just be contented w what I have?
Currently living in D15, which is great.. but wanna explore other areas outside Katong :)
I will sell the property that doesn't perform and replace it with a more potential one. It didn't performin the past, it won't in the future. Waiting for cycle is a waste of time
PropVestor
19-07-17, 18:09
well to be honest I'm vested in D12.. and so I'm hoping that it can ride on the recent soar in prices seen in the Queenstown/ red hill area. I bought my place about 5 years back.. rented it out for the past 1+ years.. but so far haven't seen much if any increase in PSF, which is a bit disheartening. Rental return about 2.8%. On the other hand, red hill and queens town is soaring (as in the new condos there). My cousin who's rich bought echelon high floor at $2k PSF- simply insane if u ask me. He also bought it maybe 2/3 years back? Dunno if he's made any paper profit yet though..
Right now since I'm a bit older and wiser (and richer haha).. I'm looking to sell my D12 condo and buy a better one, maybe around $2-2.2m. It's quite a lot of money I know.. but I'm young (still just 28) so I'm willing to stretch myself. My D12 unit is 95% paid up so if I do manage to sell it at cost price (which is fine w me) I will need to top it up by maybe 900k? I admit I come from a rather privileged background.. but I do work hard and save on wants.. my parents are also v supportive of the above plans. But what do u guys think? Too much too soon? Should I just be contented w what I have?
Currently living in D15, which is great.. but wanna explore other areas outside Katong :)
Gasp! 28 today and at 23 bought a condo in D12!! You should be in the papers on how you managed that! I was fresh out of uni at 24 and not a penny to my name. Only managed my first property investment at 33. How times have changed! Good to start young. Happy for you but I am not so sure about your D12 capital appreciation. I hope you have made some money and continue to plonk in at the right ones. We need more fresh blood to inject life into the market. All the best.
PropVestor
Amber Woods
19-07-17, 18:31
well to be honest I'm vested in D12.. and so I'm hoping that it can ride on the recent soar in prices seen in the Queenstown/ red hill area. I bought my place about 5 years back.. rented it out for the past 1+ years.. but so far haven't seen much if any increase in PSF, which is a bit disheartening. Rental return about 2.8%. On the other hand, red hill and queens town is soaring (as in the new condos there). My cousin who's rich bought echelon high floor at $2k PSF- simply insane if u ask me. He also bought it maybe 2/3 years back? Dunno if he's made any paper profit yet though..
Right now since I'm a bit older and wiser (and richer haha).. I'm looking to sell my D12 condo and buy a better one, maybe around $2-2.2m. It's quite a lot of money I know.. but I'm young (still just 28) so I'm willing to stretch myself. My D12 unit is 95% paid up so if I do manage to sell it at cost price (which is fine w me) I will need to top it up by maybe 900k? I admit I come from a rather privileged background.. but I do work hard and save on wants.. my parents are also v supportive of the above plans. But what do u guys think? Too much too soon? Should I just be contented w what I have?
Currently living in D15, which is great.. but wanna explore other areas outside Katong :)
Bought D12 in 2012, not making money now. So those bought in 2013, 2014, 2015 and 2016 also cannot expect to make money since the peak was in 2013 and prices has declined only about 12 percent from peak. Even if sell at cost and buy now makes no difference because you are likely to buy at 2012 price if you buy now. Just keep it for rental. However, if you believe in cycle, sell now at cost and invest in bonds to give a better return of more than your current 2.8 percent. You come from a privilage family so likely have avenue or knowledge in investing other instruments.
Amber Woods
19-07-17, 18:47
Bought D12 in 2012, not making money now. So those bought in 2013, 2014, 2015 and 2016 also cannot expect to make money since the peak was in 2013 and prices has declined only about 12 percent from peak. Even if sell at cost and buy now makes no difference because you are likely to buy at 2012 price if you buy now. Just keep it for rental. However, if you believe in cycle, sell now at cost and invest in bonds to give a better return of more than your current 2.8 percent. You come from a privilage family so likely have avenue or knowledge in investing other instruments.
Another option is to sell your D12 apartment now and buy CCR where prices have declined by more than 30 percent.
anythingwhatever
19-07-17, 19:27
well to be honest I'm vested in D12.. and so I'm hoping that it can ride on the recent soar in prices seen in the Queenstown/ red hill area. I bought my place about 5 years back.. rented it out for the past 1+ years.. but so far haven't seen much if any increase in PSF, which is a bit disheartening. Rental return about 2.8%. On the other hand, red hill and queens town is soaring (as in the new condos there). My cousin who's rich bought echelon high floor at $2k PSF- simply insane if u ask me. He also bought it maybe 2/3 years back? Dunno if he's made any paper profit yet though..
Right now since I'm a bit older and wiser (and richer haha).. I'm looking to sell my D12 condo and buy a better one, maybe around $2-2.2m. It's quite a lot of money I know.. but I'm young (still just 28) so I'm willing to stretch myself. My D12 unit is 95% paid up so if I do manage to sell it at cost price (which is fine w me) I will need to top it up by maybe 900k? I admit I come from a rather privileged background.. but I do work hard and save on wants.. my parents are also v supportive of the above plans. But what do u guys think? Too much too soon? Should I just be contented w what I have?
Currently living in D15, which is great.. but wanna explore other areas outside Katong :)
One word: Envy. :)
Whichever year also got winners.
https://sg.finance.yahoo.com/news/top-condos-capital-appreciation-093500908.html
Bought D12 in 2012, not making money now. So those bought in 2013, 2014, 2015 and 2016 also cannot expect to make money since the peak was in 2013 and prices has declined only about 12 percent from peak. Even if sell at cost and buy now makes no difference because you are likely to buy at 2012 price if you buy now. Just keep it for rental. However, if you believe in cycle, sell now at cost and invest in bonds to give a better return of more than your current 2.8 percent. You come from a privilage family so likely have avenue or knowledge in investing other instruments.
aspirations
20-07-17, 00:10
Gasp! 28 today and at 23 bought a condo in D12!! You should be in the papers on how you managed that! I was fresh out of uni at 24 and not a penny to my name. Only managed my first property investment at 33. How times have changed! Good to start young. Happy for you but I am not so sure about your D12 capital appreciation. I hope you have made some money and continue to plonk in at the right ones. We need more fresh blood to inject life into the market. All the best.
PropVestor
i graduated and started work at 23, the year i bought my D12 condo. obviously my parents helped me out with the downpayment - i couldn't afford it of course. since then ive worked hard to pay it off, again with my parents' help... and 5 years later today - im 95% done. just a little more to go.
honestly speaking i dont think ive "lost" any money in this investment. its a matter of how much ive made/ want to make before selling. my calculations, with all the rental income included and stamp duty/ agent fees deducted.. i think at this point i would have made maybe $50-60k? (that's assuming i sell at the price my unit type/ size is commanding according to property guru :P (its the only platform im vaguely familiar with cos im just a noob)
after much discussion with my parents who have been guiding me through all of this... ive decided to try selling my current condo unit.. should it not work out.. im still getting rental at 2.8% p.a. - not good but decent enough i guess.
You have wonderful parents.
They can do more by teaching you to fish rather than passing you a bucket of fish.
Good luck, and have fun!
i graduated and started work at 23, the year i bought my D12 condo. obviously my parents helped me out with the downpayment - i couldn't afford it of course. since then ive worked hard to pay it off, again with my parents' help... and 5 years later today - im 95% done. just a little more to go.
honestly speaking i dont think ive "lost" any money in this investment. its a matter of how much ive made/ want to make before selling. my calculations, with all the rental income included and stamp duty/ agent fees deducted.. i think at this point i would have made maybe $50-60k? (that's assuming i sell at the price my unit type/ size is commanding according to property guru :P (its the only platform im vaguely familiar with cos im just a noob)
after much discussion with my parents who have been guiding me through all of this... ive decided to try selling my current condo unit.. should it not work out.. im still getting rental at 2.8% p.a. - not good but decent enough i guess.
I fully agree that the next "winter" is going to be very very long and COLD...just thinking of when....
When that day comes, will the government remove all the CMs and implement some heating measures? Will that make things better?
Thanks in advance. I am here to learn.
Amber Woods
20-07-17, 08:56
i graduated and started work at 23, the year i bought my D12 condo. obviously my parents helped me out with the downpayment - i couldn't afford it of course. since then ive worked hard to pay it off, again with my parents' help... and 5 years later today - im 95% done. just a little more to go.
honestly speaking i dont think ive "lost" any money in this investment. its a matter of how much ive made/ want to make before selling. my calculations, with all the rental income included and stamp duty/ agent fees deducted.. i think at this point i would have made maybe $50-60k? (that's assuming i sell at the price my unit type/ size is commanding according to property guru :P (its the only platform im vaguely familiar with cos im just a noob)
after much discussion with my parents who have been guiding me through all of this... ive decided to try selling my current condo unit.. should it not work out.. im still getting rental at 2.8% p.a. - not good but decent enough i guess.
The market is pricing at 2011 level for resale market now. You will be lucky if you can sell at 2012 price. The resale market is at its turning point now because prices shoot up exponentially between 2009 to 2011. So if the market hits below 2011 level, the fall will be more steep going forward. Keep your fingers cross!
You already have precedence to learn from........
From 1998 property price crash, government started introducing heating measures bit by bit, and it wasn't until 2006 that property prices finally went up steadily! :distress:
So lesson learnt: Property price is all about sentiment!
When sentiment sours, removing all property cooling measures and even introducing property heating measures are USELESS! (until sentiment turns positive again!) :cower:
When that day comes, will the government remove all the CMs and implement some heating measures? Will that make things better?
Thanks in advance. I am here to learn.
It's always good to hold one or two good property in a good location.
Be safe: don't believe those who tell you to wait because they are looking to buy.
When you hold a good property, if prices fall or remain constant, you can afford to upgrade or switch to a desired location anytime.
When prices soar (which nobody knows when or perhaps it has begun for many good places but the indices do not reflect the ground situation), you have the "capital" to switch over as well, or to continue to pay yesterday's prices.
My property bought in 2012, the last 3 transactions at a lower floor with lesser facing are all priced about 5-10% higher, not including rental gains.
Get the correct "capital" and do not hoard the wrong kind...
tonymontana
20-07-17, 09:37
The market is pricing at 2011 level for resale market now. You will be lucky if you can sell at 2012 price. The resale market is at its turning point now because prices shoot up exponentially between 2009 to 2011. So if the market hits below 2011 level, the fall will be more steep going forward. Keep your fingers cross!
the resale market is turning UP, not down.
tonymontana
20-07-17, 09:44
i graduated and started work at 23, the year i bought my D12 condo. obviously my parents helped me out with the downpayment - i couldn't afford it of course. since then ive worked hard to pay it off, again with my parents' help... and 5 years later today - im 95% done. just a little more to go.
honestly speaking i dont think ive "lost" any money in this investment. its a matter of how much ive made/ want to make before selling. my calculations, with all the rental income included and stamp duty/ agent fees deducted.. i think at this point i would have made maybe $50-60k? (that's assuming i sell at the price my unit type/ size is commanding according to property guru :P (its the only platform im vaguely familiar with cos im just a noob)
after much discussion with my parents who have been guiding me through all of this... ive decided to try selling my current condo unit.. should it not work out.. im still getting rental at 2.8% p.a. - not good but decent enough i guess.
my 2 cents
you shouldn't have tied up all your capital on one single property.
don't sell now. just continue to take the rental.
if you need cash to invest in another unit, do an equity loan. and your parents seem like the sort who doesn't mind helping out their boy investing
stick to katong. south of dunman road, of course. you wouldn't want to keep being accosted by all the D14 hoi polloi, would you :p
also, why D12? with that budget you could've got robertson, river valley, bukit timah or holland, in fact you had so many choices.
free up all your capital and sell off only if you are targetting a landed freehold house (because a house like that really need huge moolah to swing). stick to central locations.
for eg: don't buy that 3 storey new house in sembawang. that's like nearer to Johor already.
cheers.
Amber Woods
20-07-17, 09:57
the resale market is turning UP, not down.
Oh yes! All the property analysts, developers and agents are saying so. You better faster go and buy now before prices rise further.
tonymontana
20-07-17, 10:04
Oh yes! All the property analysts, developers and agents are saying so. You better faster go and buy now before prices rise further.
already bought.
OK la, for the record, i'm just giving opinions, i could be wrong.
Amber Woods
20-07-17, 10:06
already bought.
OK la, for the record, i'm just giving opinions, i could be wrong.
OK, that is fine.
Cheers!
teddybear, Thanks for enlightenment.
Amber Woods, Do you mean all those property analysts, developers and agents are wrong? I am confused.
Amber Woods
20-07-17, 10:21
teddybear, Thanks for enlightenment.
Amber Woods, Do you mean all those property analysts, developers and agents are wrong? I am confused.
They are vested! Their opinions are just market data. You make your own decision.
Oh yes! All the property analysts, developers and agents are saying so. You better faster go and buy now before prices rise further.
I am saying, if those tiki love to wait all these years, please continue to wait, please don't buy.
For those who sincerely think that there is value, this is definitely the time to strike. In fact, the best time has passed already.
I am not selling so there is no benefit on my part. In fact, market goes up, my properties which are smaller or are poorer in location (like Teddy says OCR at 1000 years peak) actually suffer as I may not be able to switch to what I want. So actually I should wish for continued price pressure from properties of better location or size.
Amber Woods
20-07-17, 10:34
I am saying, if those tiki love to wait all these years, please continue to wait, please don't buy.
For those who sincerely think that there is value, this is definitely the time to strike. In fact, the best time has passed already.
I am not selling so there is no benefit on my part. In fact, market goes up, my properties which are smaller or are poorer in location (like Teddy says OCR at 1000 years peak) actually suffer as I may not be able to switch to what I want. So actually I should wish for continued price pressure from properties of better location or size.
If you need to buy, buy into CCR now because prices have fallen by more than 30%.
Prices for ROR and OCR are still at peak high. If need to buy now, proceed with caution.
I hope I am clear so that you can stop making assumptions about my position.
They are vested! Their opinions are just market data. You make your own decision.
Agents I understand, but developers inject real money to bid for land at high prices. What does that mean?
PropVestor
20-07-17, 10:49
Coming back to the main topic of buying city fringe areas (I love to steer 1,000 people back from 1,000 year of topic digression).
I think the heavy bidding for RCR lands added another dimension of upward price pressures. They will certainly bridge some CCR gaps which will make certain segments very happy. Case in point while I am in the queue for Duo Residences, it is close to $1,900 psf back in Nov 2013. At that time, Alex Residences, Bishan apartments and Jurong Gateway are very close to this psf (opening a can of worms for you guessed it, 1,000 year......)
I am not very sure some of those highly bided lands are really worth that kind of price. They are priced for the future indeed. Unless you can tell the future, no one is really qualified to tell you its too expensive or not.
However if you analyse the data for RCR, they are the best compromise for middle class Singaporeans in terms of affordability. I find millennial investors will take on to this pretty well. To that, it will hold long term value in the long run. OCR and CCR prices are more rocky as they either lead the price upwards or downwards more steeply than RCR if we are to measure their straight line.
The best way to invest is to have a balance portfolio of properties in various tiers and locations. Of course, not many have the luxury of doing this. Certainly not me.
2 cents,
PropVestor
Amber Woods
20-07-17, 10:50
Agents I understand, but developers inject real money to bid for land at high prices. What does that mean?
Developers are running a business. No land means no business. The company has fixed costs to pay. Without land to build and sell, they will suffer losses. With land, they can shift some of the costs to the project. Even if their projects do not make profit, their losses can be lesser. That is why, developers will try to outbid each other even in a slow market. They need the land to survive their business.
I am pretty sure you are not vested now.
Pray tell me you are vested now and not looking to buy.
If you need to buy, buy into CCR now because prices have fallen by more than 30%.
Prices for ROR and OCR are still at peak high. If need to buy now, proceed with caution.
I hope I am clear so that you can stop making assumptions about my position.
Amber Woods
20-07-17, 10:55
I am pretty sure you are not vested now.
My opinions are also market data.
I including many others here never talk about their positions in this forum unlike you and Arcachon.
My opinions are also market data.
I including many others here never talk about their positions in this forum unlike you and Arcachon.
I never separate the analyst from their positions. A banking analyst, a journalist, a developer and real estate analyst, they all have different angles.
If I never share my angle, I will be called basing the experience on thin air. All I shared were real life experience.
Now is the time to buy a property with good location - this we can all agree can't we?
Amber Woods
20-07-17, 11:08
I never separate the analyst from their positions. A banking analyst, a journalist, a developer and real estate analyst, they all have different angles.
If I never share my angle, I will be called basing the experience on thin air. All I shared were real life experience.
Now is the time to buy a property with good location - this we can all agree can't we?
The Singapore property market is fragmented unlike before. It is not about good location but good location in which segments? CCR, ROR or OCR? Do not blindly buy into good location.
Thanks Amber.
Spottiswoode Suites is selling its leftover units with 8% discount. Is it worth buying?
We have a place to stay in, but just want to upgrade location.
Amber Woods
20-07-17, 11:40
Thanks Amber.
Spottiswoode Suites is selling its leftover units with 8% discount. Is it worth buying?
We have a place to stay in, but just want to upgrade location.
We need to be very careful when buying into new development like Spottiswoode Suites where the developer builds plenty of small units to make a profit given the high land price they had paid.
1. Examine the final unit (if it already TOP or near TOP) to see for yourself if the size and quality meet your expectation.
2. Look at the prices around the area especially resale unit. Is the price premium justified?
3. For the same price, can you get something bigger or better than SS?
4. What was the launched prices (check URA's website) and see if you are getting a good deal from the developer.
Location wise, it is a good location but surrounded by HDB flats. Good for own stay but the size can be too small for a family unless you go for the bigger unit which quantum wise make it more difficult to make the decision because with that kind of price, you can get much bigger FH unit elsewhere in equally good location.
Amber,
Many thanks. Will do the homework.
We don't like to live in a place where others lived in before. So we didn't check resale units.
Agent said the location is part of the future Greater Southern Waterfront and the nearby Cantonment MRT is under construction. So there is a chance of appreciation. In front are conservation houses and the view will never be blocked. Despite the small size, the floor-to-floor height is 3.6m, which means there is some space you can play with.
I don't have any idea how much the price difference would be between two units with 2.8m and 3.6m ceiling height respectively, assuming everything else is the same.
It is in the process of TOP.
Agent said the current price is the lowest in the history of this project, but I am not sure if the market will go lower further.
We have viewed some new condos in Districts 2 and 3 but prefer this location.
If this is not a good time to buy, we don't have to buy.
Before making a decision, we would appreciate it if the gurus in this forum can give some advice.
While you think about it, people will be queuing to ballot for it.
If good location and new are your criteria, and you can afford, I say go for it. I hope I have the bullets now but too bad...
For some people's logic, HDB will always win. Or old freehold units. They are looking at another kind of value, which may not be relevant to you.
Amber,
Many thanks. Will do the homework.
We don't like to live in a place where others lived in before. So we didn't check resale units.
Agent said the location is part of the future Greater Southern Waterfront and the nearby Cantonment MRT is under construction. So there is a chance of appreciation. In front are conservation houses and the view will never be blocked. Despite the small size, the floor-to-floor height is 3.6m, which means there is some space you can play with.
I don't have any idea how much the price difference would be between two units with 2.8m and 3.6m ceiling height respectively, assuming everything else is the same.
It is in the process of TOP.
Agent said the current price is the lowest in the history of this project, but I am not sure if the market will go lower further.
We have viewed some new condos in Districts 2 and 3 but prefer this location.
If this is not a good time to buy, we don't have to buy.
Before making a decision, we would appreciate it if the gurus in this forum can give some advice.
tonymontana
20-07-17, 13:09
Amber,
Many thanks. Will do the homework.
We don't like to live in a place where others lived in before. So we didn't check resale units.
Agent said the location is part of the future Greater Southern Waterfront and the nearby Cantonment MRT is under construction. So there is a chance of appreciation. In front are conservation houses and the view will never be blocked. Despite the small size, the floor-to-floor height is 3.6m, which means there is some space you can play with.
I don't have any idea how much the price difference would be between two units with 2.8m and 3.6m ceiling height respectively, assuming everything else is the same.
It is in the process of TOP.
Agent said the current price is the lowest in the history of this project, but I am not sure if the market will go lower further.
We have viewed some new condos in Districts 2 and 3 but prefer this location.
If this is not a good time to buy, we don't have to buy.
Before making a decision, we would appreciate it if the gurus in this forum can give some advice.
IMO:
freehold older condo have better value.
since you prefer brand new and it's for own stay, just buy (or don't buy) whichever you like best.
btw i see some confirmation bias in your posting.
just fyi, there are people (like me) who don't go for all those fancy stuff. i like to buy resale, older, freehold condo, location is of paramount importance.
once i got the location right AND i don't massively overpay for a unit there, the rest of the plan automatically clicks into place (even if market isn't so great).
in a strong up market, buy new sale off-plan is a good idea as one can see immediate gains when VP
for current market, i don't see the strong V shape recovery. it'll just go gradually up. so no rush to buy, but market is for sure turning positive.
i also don't see a lot more downside going forward barring any black swan event.. so if those want to buy now, can also.
Thanks Kelonguni and tonymontana.
Many of you said or hinted that winter is coming and staying for a long time. That's why I hesitate. I don't want to suffer in the winter even if I can survive. Paper loss is also a loss. And I have a choice to buy in the winter.
Amber Woods
20-07-17, 13:48
Amber,
Many thanks. Will do the homework.
We don't like to live in a place where others lived in before. So we didn't check resale units.
Agent said the location is part of the future Greater Southern Waterfront and the nearby Cantonment MRT is under construction. So there is a chance of appreciation. In front are conservation houses and the view will never be blocked. Despite the small size, the floor-to-floor height is 3.6m, which means there is some space you can play with.
I don't have any idea how much the price difference would be between two units with 2.8m and 3.6m ceiling height respectively, assuming everything else is the same.
It is in the process of TOP.
Agent said the current price is the lowest in the history of this project, but I am not sure if the market will go lower further.
We have viewed some new condos in Districts 2 and 3 but prefer this location.
If this is not a good time to buy, we don't have to buy.
Before making a decision, we would appreciate it if the gurus in this forum can give some advice.
I was in your situation before but the market was moving up already for 2 years. I looked at the peak prices around the area and took comfort that even if I buy now, I would still be buying 20% below the last peak price. So I went in and that decision turned out to be good.
You are buying when the market is very fragmented. CCR prices that have corrected are mostly resale units but not so much for new units. SS is a bit of CCR or ROR depending on how you view it. ROR prices are still at near peak. So in another word, SS prices are still at near peak launch price.
You need to do some research to find out if there are developments around the area selling at higher prices than SS during the last peak? If there are, than you can take comfort that there is some room for appreciation if the market turns around. If there isn't. than better stay clear.
Floor to fooor height is not the same as ceiling height.
I was in your situation before but the market was moving up already for 2 years. I looked at the peak prices around the area and took comfort that even if I buy now, I would still be buying 20% below the last peak price. So I went in and that decision turned out to be good.
You are buying when the market is very fragmented. CCR prices that have corrected are mostly resale units but not so much for new units. SS is a bit of CCR or ROR depending on how you view it. ROR prices are still at near peak. So in another word, SS prices are still at near peak launch price.
You need to do some research to find out if there are developments around the area selling at higher prices than SS during the last peak? If there are, than you can take comfort that there is some room for appreciation if the market turns around. If there isn't. than better stay clear.
I think focusing on capital gain is outdated. Buying on the cheap is outdated. Looking at historic high and low is outdated. U had a method that works in the past and now u expect to work in the future. Now better better look at tenancy. If a property has high rental and high tenancy....it worth paying the top dollar.
Thanks Amber and indomie.
SS psf price looks higher than S18 and S Residences, but SS has no bay window and no planter box while the latter have.
Developer is giving 8% discount from launch price in 2013.
I work nearby and also like Outram Park Interchange (3 lines) connecting everywhere.
Amber, indomie, Kelonguni and tonymontana, I am not arguing with you but just to let you know what I am thinking.
Amber Woods
20-07-17, 14:57
I think focusing on capital gain is outdated. Buying on the cheap is outdated. Looking at historic high and low is outdated. U had a method that works in the past and now u expect to work in the future. Now better better look at tenancy. If a property has high rental and high tenancy....it worth paying the top dollar.
The fundamentals of property buying have not changed.
Floor to fooor height is not the same as ceiling height.
This one I know. Thanks. I didn't put it correctly.
No worries. Just hope no one gets snooped by agent.
tonymontana
20-07-17, 15:37
Thanks Kelonguni and tonymontana.
Many of you said or hinted that winter is coming and staying for a long time. That's why I hesitate. I don't want to suffer in the winter even if I can survive. Paper loss is also a loss. And I have a choice to buy in the winter.
The only place Winter is Coming for sure 100%, is on Game of Thrones.
for singapore property market, we're all guessing.
Property's Good location means some where in CCR convenient location where the RICH and influential lives (and there is no HDB flats within 1km).......
Property's Good attributes means MUST be Freehold, with underground MRT station and shopping malls nearby within walking distance (<500m), good facing, good feng shui, high floor, no west sun,...........
I never separate the analyst from their positions. A banking analyst, a journalist, a developer and real estate analyst, they all have different angles.
If I never share my angle, I will be called basing the experience on thin air. All I shared were real life experience.
Now is the time to buy a property with good location - this we can all agree can't we?
Based on your logic, you should only buy HDB flat with >5% net rental yield! (No where you can get net rental yield >5% for private properties)
I think focusing on capital gain is outdated. Buying on the cheap is outdated. Looking at historic high and low is outdated. U had a method that works in the past and now u expect to work in the future. Now better better look at tenancy. If a property has high rental and high tenancy....it worth paying the top dollar.
Based on your logic, you should only buy HDB flat with >5% net rental yield! (No where you can get net rental yield >5% for private properties)
B4 Jun 2006 or after Jun 2006.
Can someone enlighten me, USA index shows prices have drop 12% but Developers are bidding land at record prices... even higher than the last peak... why is that so?
anythingwhatever
20-07-17, 23:32
Property's Good location means some where in CCR convenient location where the RICH and influential lives (and there is no HDB flats within 1km).......
Property's Good attributes means MUST be Freehold, with underground MRT station and shopping malls nearby within walking distance (<500m), good facing, good feng shui, high floor, no west sun,...........
By this definition, every location outside CCR is poor?
OK you win... :)
Actually I never said winter coming. If anything, I was amongst the first to declare spring.
The current situation feels very 2007 to 2008 again, with lots of new and renewed blood coming back to the market, except this time round, there is no 2009 due to TDSR since 2013.
World banking systems have ensured that sub prime type of collapse are avoided, and monetary printing will still not be weaned off as far as one can see into the horizon.
Very much goes back to your intention in buying. For me, it just makes sense to buy more provided my cash plus TDSR clears.
In the meantime, huat huat big from stocks!
Thanks Kelonguni and tonymontana.
Many of you said or hinted that winter is coming and staying for a long time. That's why I hesitate. I don't want to suffer in the winter even if I can survive. Paper loss is also a loss. And I have a choice to buy in the winter.
Thanks, Kelonguni, for all your advice. I will buy, maybe not SS leftover units but something better.
Outside CCR generally poorer, if not by %, then by average also true isn't it?
private property owners living near or beside HDB flats' generally cannot be very rich right? Have you ever seen any Good Class Bungalows that is 99-years leasehold and beside HDB flats?
By this definition, every location outside CCR is poor?
OK you win... :)
Can someone enlighten me, USA index shows prices have dropped 12% but Developers are bidding land at record prices... even higher than the last peak... why is that so?
The Developers know something we don't know.
Outside CCR generally poorer, if not by %, then by average also true isn't it?
private property owners living near or beside HDB flats' generally cannot be very rich right? Have you ever seen any Good Class Bungalows that is 99-years leasehold and beside HDB flats?
Wow you are very elitist. Paint the property and people in OCR until so jialat… Halimah must be very sad.
Can someone enlighten me, USA index shows prices have drop 12% but Developers are bidding land at record prices... even higher than the last peak... why is that so?
Why refer to USA index when the China and HK indices are much closer to home???
PropVestor
21-07-17, 11:08
Why refer to USA index when the China and HK indices are much closer to home???
URA?
Why the developers need to know or even care when they bid high and can sell higher (flip) to those new launch property buyers?
Regardless of land price, they still have their own and employees' salary to pay, their offices rental to pay, their perks that costs money, so they just have to ensure there is construction work going on and revenue coming in!
Anyway, The high price is the risk that the new launch buyers are shouldering, not property developers, so why should developers care?
The Developers know something we don't know.
Can someone enlighten me, USA index shows prices have drop 12% but Developers are bidding land at record prices... even higher than the last peak... why is that so?
URA?
Haha ok...
1. Basically enbloc and developers' bid prices are different from URA computed prices. The profits that enbloc sellers gain are not computed in the indices.
2. We do not have a solely new sale price index as yet. All local indices depend mainly on resales. URA seems to include new properties but how they specify completion status and weigh the various attributes is unclear. For example, if a very very old 80, year old property is transacted at record low prices, it could be included as one within an attribute of ">30 years old" properties. If more older and poorer location properties are transacted at lower (but not disproportionately lower prices), it will still weigh down on the index.
3. The methodology is 5-quarter fixed weight, with the weights revised every 3 years. 5 quarter aggregation means the index will be slow to show any positive changes. You will require at least 3 quarters of positive change and 2 quarters of negative change (assuming same magnitude) to see an actual positive change. Many are saying that it is at most a few quarters away. When it inverts, you will need to wait for the next cycle before it turns back...
PropVestor
21-07-17, 12:48
Haha ok...
1. Basically enbloc and developers' bid prices are different from URA computed prices. The profits that enbloc sellers gain are not computed in the indices.
2. We do not have a solely new sale price index as yet. All local indices depend mainly on resales. URA seems to include new properties but how they specify completion status and weigh the various attributes is unclear. For example, if a very very old 80, year old property is transacted at record low prices, it could be included as one within an attribute of ">30 years old" properties. If more older and poorer location properties are transacted at lower (but not disproportionately lower prices), it will still weigh down on the index.
3. The methodology is 5-quarter fixed weight, with the weights revised every 3 years. 5 quarter aggregation means the index will be slow to show any positive changes. You will require at least 3 quarters of positive change and 2 quarters of negative change (assuming same magnitude) to see an actual positive change. Many are saying that it is at most a few quarters away. When it inverts, you will need to wait for the next cycle before it turns back...
Very insightful. Thanks for sharing.
anythingwhatever
21-07-17, 12:56
Wow you are very elitist. Paint the property and people in OCR until so jialat… Halimah must be very sad.
90/10 Rule. 90% Poor, 10% Rich. :)
PropVestor
21-07-17, 14:24
There is only a handful of condos in Singapore that meet such a requirement and most are held by you guessed it, elites which are safeguarding it for themselves. They are quite untouchable based on their network and leverage.
Some of the best margins are made from OCR condos/ECs as they command a very low entry price exactly due to their OCR location. Yet, these owners can easily upgrade to a private condo somewhere else rather comfortably. Is that a bad thing? Not at all. I am in fact envy of that opportunity. A buddy of mine did exactly that and now is staying at a 4-bedder Santorini apartment that is pool facing with little to top up for that massive space upgrade. You may argue that he might suffer a loss in years to come but can you really tell the future?
Against narrow minded investors,
PropVestor
Why the developers need to know or even care when they bid high and can sell higher (flip) to those new launch property buyers?
Regardless of land price, they still have their own and employees' salary to pay, their offices rental to pay, their perks that costs money, so they just have to ensure there is construction work going on and revenue coming in!
Anyway, The high price is the risk that the new launch buyers are shouldering, not property developers, so why should developers care?
Developer play the same leverage game as we do but on a much shorter period. If he put down 10% of his own money and get 10% profit....he is making 100% return. Its all bank's money.
tonymontana
21-07-17, 14:43
90/10 Rule. 90% Poor, 10% Rich. :)
you mean 80-20 rule (Pareto's law)
PropVestor
21-07-17, 14:50
Developer play the same leverage game as we do but on a much shorter period. If he put down 10% of his own money and get 10% profit....he is making 100% return. Its all bank's money.
Developers are indeed borrowing as much as they can in this low interest rate environment to get the maximum mileage for their investment. Consortiums are form as each developer has different leverage capabilities which is correlated to their size. Even giants like Wanda (~RMB 800bn market cap) is at the mercy of the banks and have to liquidate US$9.3bn tourism assets to pay them back bank loans. They are at a leash too very much like Trump's real estate business.
It is debt driven business for both developers and land owners.
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-wanda-hotels-20170710-story.html
anythingwhatever
21-07-17, 14:53
you mean 80-20 rule (Pareto's law)
90-10 Teddy Rule :)
Developers are indeed borrowing as much as they can in this low interest rate environment to get the maximum mileage for their investment. Consortiums are form as each developer has different leverage capabilities which is correlated to their size. Even giants like Wanda (~RMB 800bn market cap) is at the mercy of the banks and have to liquidate US$9.3bn tourism assets to pay them back bank loans. They are at a leash too very much like Trump's real estate business.
It is debt driven business for both developers and land owners.
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-wanda-hotels-20170710-story.html
Largest Southeast Asian banks by total assets Edit
Information from Forbes as of 2017[1]
Rank Bank name Country Total assets
(US$ billion)
1 DBS Bank Singapore 333.5
2 OCBC Bank Singapore 283.7
3 United Overseas Bank Singapore 235.4
4 Maybank Malaysia 164.1
5 CIMB Malaysia 108.3
6 Public Bank Berhad Malaysia 84.7
7 Bangkok Bank Thailand 82.2
8 Siam Commercial Bank Thailand 81.3
9 Kasikornbank Thailand 79.5
10 Bank Mandiri Indonesia 77.1
Mind u Sg banks are giants in comparison with neighbor's banks. With assets so huge and liquidity drowning, chasing so little government land.
Very insightful. Thanks for sharing.
My pleasure always to contribute my understanding. Any discrepancies or counterargument based on facts (for example if anyone has insider URA computation info), please feel free to share.
Developers are indeed borrowing as much as they can in this low interest rate environment to get the maximum mileage for their investment. Consortiums are form as each developer has different leverage capabilities which is correlated to their size. Even giants like Wanda (~RMB 800bn market cap) is at the mercy of the banks and have to liquidate US$9.3bn tourism assets to pay them back bank loans. They are at a leash too very much like Trump's real estate business.
It is debt driven business for both developers and land owners.
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-wanda-hotels-20170710-story.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXjtGerk9BM
Maybe also prepare for Taiwan to come over.
hot hot https://www.facebook.com/thooliang.tan/videos/pcb.1854363434590085/1854363331256762/?type=3&theater
https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL7X0EtIoZRgF9tOfGECtIkYYkIVxe6haE&v=JzmEYpgydys
http://www.channel8news.sg/news8/latestnews/20170722-sg-yck-hundred-palms/3774436.html?cid=ch8news-fb
anythingwhatever
22-07-17, 19:13
http://www.channel8news.sg/news8/latestnews/20170722-sg-yck-hundred-palms/3774436.html?cid=ch8news-fb
Yes, 100% Palms 100% Sold. :)
Developers are running a business. No land means no business. The company has fixed costs to pay. Without land to build and sell, they will suffer losses. With land, they can shift some of the costs to the project. Even if their projects do not make profit, their losses can be lesser. That is why, developers will try to outbid each other even in a slow market. They need the land to survive their business.
This should be the reason why developers are buying higher. Right now, the market setup allows them to sell higher.
Property can be bought in any market condition, value can be found in any market condition so long as the buyer knows how to weigh a prospect.
But.
To sell a property in the portfolio, it requires the right market condition. It requires a bullish market to sell into.
It is not the buying that made the profit but the selling.
Property's Good location means some where in CCR convenient location where the RICH and influential lives (and there is no HDB flats within 1km).......
Property's Good attributes means MUST be Freehold, with underground MRT station and shopping malls nearby within walking distance (<500m), good facing, good feng shui, high floor, no west sun,...........
Agreed.
Having the right mix of occupants is important.
well to be honest I'm vested in D12.. and so I'm hoping that it can ride on the recent soar in prices seen in the Queenstown/ red hill area. I bought my place about 5 years back.. rented it out for the past 1+ years.. but so far haven't seen much if any increase in PSF, which is a bit disheartening. Rental return about 2.8%. On the other hand, red hill and queens town is soaring (as in the new condos there). My cousin who's rich bought echelon high floor at $2k PSF- simply insane if u ask me. He also bought it maybe 2/3 years back? Dunno if he's made any paper profit yet though..
Right now since I'm a bit older and wiser (and richer haha).. I'm looking to sell my D12 condo and buy a better one, maybe around $2-2.2m. It's quite a lot of money I know.. but I'm young (still just 28) so I'm willing to stretch myself. My D12 unit is 95% paid up so if I do manage to sell it at cost price (which is fine w me) I will need to top it up by maybe 900k? I admit I come from a rather privileged background.. but I do work hard and save on wants.. my parents are also v supportive of the above plans. But what do u guys think? Too much too soon? Should I just be contented w what I have?
Currently living in D15, which is great.. but wanna explore other areas outside Katong :)
The game of property is a leveraged game, don't lose sight of this.
So, it is to make more money by borrowing money. When the property is 20% paid, meaning you are borrowing 80%, the objective is growth.
Why the property is 95% paid, the objective should be shifted to capital protection.
The game of property is a leveraged game, don't lose sight of this.
So, it is to make more money by borrowing money. When the property is 20% paid, meaning you are borrowing 80%, the objective is growth.
Why the property is 95% paid, the objective should be shifted to capital protection.
Different people play the same game differently. I play max leverage other don't.
aspirations
24-07-17, 22:07
The game of property is a leveraged game, don't lose sight of this.
So, it is to make more money by borrowing money. When the property is 20% paid, meaning you are borrowing 80%, the objective is growth.
Why the property is 95% paid, the objective should be shifted to capital protection.
can you try to simplifying what ur saying? im just a noob i need more explanation haha thanks
If don't want to play the leveraged game, then with today’s rental yield might as well put the money in bond sua.
Actually yours is not max leveraged, LOL.
However, I agreed that everyone should do what he is comfortable with.
can you try to simplifying what ur saying? im just a noob i need more explanation haha thanks
?
You have a million, and thinking of doing two millions so didn't sound like a noob to me.
So in your case, 5 years ago when D12 property was bought how much was the capital deployed and how much was the loan amount and tenure? And presumably the mortgage payments were completely funded from rental income?
It is better to illustrate using real data, even though by asking for it it can be intrusive to you.
If don't want to play the leveraged game, then with today’s rental yield might as well put the money in bond sua.
Actually yours is not max leveraged, LOL.
However, I agreed that everyone should do what he is comfortable with.
You are right, mine all within MAS Guidelines.
200K(5 room HDB) - 1995
428K(Southbank) - 2006
660K(Southbank Cash out) - 2011
750K(Terrasse) - 2011
wow 6 years no action, very itchy.
https://s3-ap-southeast-1.amazonaws.com/static.streetsine/CoolingMeasure/NLP_Resale_HD_2.jpg
https://www.srx.com.sg/cooling-measures
tonymontana
25-07-17, 08:41
arcachon, your southbank was only 428k in 2006? that's good returns.
arcachon, your southbank was only 428k in 2006? that's good returns.
Was 535K for 2 Bedroom 958 sqft (99 years leasehold), down 20% 108K loan 428K for 28 years.
tonymontana
25-07-17, 08:53
?
You have a million, and thinking of doing two millions so didn't sound like a noob to me.
So in your case, 5 years ago when D12 property was bought how much was the capital deployed and how much was the loan amount and tenure? And presumably the mortgage payments were completely funded from rental income?
It is better to illustrate using real data, even though by asking for it it can be intrusive to you.
one can have 5 million and still be a novice. conversely, one can have only 300k and be a seasoned investor. it's not really the quantum but the mindset. Unfortunately we often gain the mindset only when we're much older.
So kudos to those here below 40 who're invested in projects like Duo , or some other CCR condo. it will pay off in the long run and you guys are still not getting "over the hill" like me.
at 28 y.o, with 95% of capital stuck in one PC, that's not a fantastic move, unless that person only buying for own use and is not interested in property investment. There are still many folks out there who are traditional and conservative, they keep their money save in FD.
how i know,? becos i also made that mistake with my first property. bank wanted to loan me 80% i only took 50% loan.
now we're on our N-th property, bank cannot loan me anything more than 50% LTV when i would have like to leverage a bit more.
another not so great move is not buying HDB for first property. which was also my mistake. Single at 28 how to buy HDB, you say? The answer is simple: get married early!
one can have 5 million and still be a novice. conversely, one can have only 300k and be a seasoned investor. it's not really the quantum but the mindset. Unfortunately we often gain the mindset only when we're much older.
So kudos to those here below 40 who're invested in projects like Duo , or some other CCR condo. it will pay off in the long run and you guys are still not getting "over the hill" like me.
at 28 y.o, with 95% of capital stuck in one PC, that's not a fantastic move, unless that person only buying for own use and is not interested in property investment. There are still many folks out there who are traditional and conservative, they keep their money save in FD.
how i know,? becos i also made that mistake with my first property. bank wanted to loan me 80% i only took 50% loan.
now we're on our N-th property, bank cannot loan me anything more than 50% LTV when i would have like to leverage a bit more.
another not so great move is not buying HDB for first property. which was also my mistake. Single at 28 how to buy HDB, you say? The answer is simple: get married early!
Everyone learn the hard way including me, but even if you will to share not many will accept it because they also need to learn the hard way.
Our School system, Social network made us what we are only way is to re program yourself and get out of the Box.
I started my re programming in 2010 when Southbank TOP and UOB value it at 1.55 million.
Bought it for 535K, same building, same location but when TOP cost 1.55 million.
Amber Woods
25-07-17, 09:10
Everyone learn the hard way including me, but even if you will to share not many will accept it because they also need to learn the hard way.
Agree!
Hard time has not hit us since 2009 so not many people have the experience learning the hard way yet.
tonymontana
25-07-17, 09:16
Was 535K for 2 Bedroom 958 sqft (99 years leasehold), down 20% 108K loan 428K for 28 years.
oh i c. nonetheless, good returns :thumbs up
Agree!
Hard time has not hit us since 2009 so not many people have the experience learning the hard way yet.
True, was in the market since my first HDB in 1988 being through so many cycles.
Each cycle made you stronger.
http://www.area.com.sg/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/1-4.jpg
http://www.area.com.sg/singapore-property-cycle/
tonymontana
25-07-17, 09:19
Everyone learn the hard way including me, but even if you will to share not many will accept it because they also need to learn the hard way.
Our School system, Social network made us what we are only way is to re program yourself and get out of the Box.
I started my re programming in 2010 when Southbank TOP and UOB value it at 1.55 million.
Bought it for 535K, same building, same location but when TOP cost 1.55 million.
you're right, i'm only telling my uncle stories becos i'm a bit bored now. if i could turn back the clock, i would definitely do things very differently. :p
anyway there are many people who r risk averse, for eg my parents, my opinion is No right, No wrong. do what is comfortable as long as Rule No 1: Don't make your bank become your enemy. haha
Amber Woods
25-07-17, 09:29
True, was in the market since my first HDB in 1988 being through so many cycles.
Each cycle made you stronger.
True!
Some people buy and buy with max leverage and never recovered during a prolong bad time. Most prudent investors survive and became stronger.
PropVestor
25-07-17, 10:10
one can have 5 million and still be a novice. conversely, one can have only 300k and be a seasoned investor. it's not really the quantum but the mindset. Unfortunately we often gain the mindset only when we're much older.
So kudos to those here below 40 who're invested in projects like Duo , or some other CCR condo. it will pay off in the long run and you guys are still not getting "over the hill" like me.
at 28 y.o, with 95% of capital stuck in one PC, that's not a fantastic move, unless that person only buying for own use and is not interested in property investment. There are still many folks out there who are traditional and conservative, they keep their money save in FD.
how i know,? becos i also made that mistake with my first property. bank wanted to loan me 80% i only took 50% loan.
now we're on our N-th property, bank cannot loan me anything more than 50% LTV when i would have like to leverage a bit more.
another not so great move is not buying HDB for first property. which was also my mistake. Single at 28 how to buy HDB, you say? The answer is simple: get married early!
You have plenty of knowledge and wisdom to share. Glad to learn from you. You still have N-th property to speak of. Those of us who invest now has really high barriers.
you cash out 660K from Southbank in 2011 to buy Terrasse, right? then 750K-660k = 90k is the cash used or you get another loan of 90K? thanks.
anythingwhatever
25-07-17, 10:53
True, was in the market since my first HDB in 1988 being through so many cycles.
Each cycle made you stronger.
http://www.area.com.sg/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/1-4.jpg
http://www.area.com.sg/singapore-property-cycle/
You have the chart up to 2017? :)
you cash out 660K from Southbank in 2011 to buy Terrasse, right? then 750K-660k = 90k is the cash used or you get another loan of 90K? thanks.
Terrasse is a 3 Bedroom Penthouse (smallest in the development) cost 1305800 + 3%-5400
Loan for Terrasse is 750k
Pay = 1305800-750,000 from 660,000 balance use as my war reserve
Another word mean I loan 750K+660K for 1305.8K
You have the chart up to 2017? :)
http://sbr.com.sg/sites/default/files/imagecache/600x360/news/ChartOfTheDay_7.png
http://sbr.com.sg/economy/news/chart-day-check-out-singapores-five-major-property-price-corrections-1983
https://www.icompareloan.com/resources/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/URA-q4-2016-expected-completion-residential-units-pipeline.png
https://www.icompareloan.com/resources/residential-vacancy-rate-singapore/#!prettyPhoto
Terrasse is a 3 Bedroom Penthouse (smallest in the development) cost 1305800 + 3%-5400
Loan for Terrasse is 750k
Pay = 1305800-750,000 from 660,000 balance use as my war reserve
Another word mean I loan 750K+660K for 1305.8K
so you don't have to pay any cash for your Terrasse! Thanks for sharing!
Terrasse is a 3 Bedroom Penthouse (smallest in the development) cost 1305800 + 3%-5400
Loan for Terrasse is 750k
Pay = 1305800-750,000 from 660,000 balance use as my war reserve
Another word mean I loan 750K+660K for 1305.8K
You have been repeating these over many years and many many times in many many threads.
Can I suggest you start a separate thread titled "Arcachon's Properties" and one for all. Save your efforts
so you don't have to pay any cash for your Terrasse! Thanks for sharing!
All Digital number in the Bank system.
tonymontana
25-07-17, 14:52
You have plenty of knowledge and wisdom to share. Glad to learn from you. ....
Those of us who invest now has really high barriers.
you're hardly a novice, from your sharing in this forum - you're more experienced than me. :p
my latest acquisition was pricey. and rental isn't great as well (although positively geared). but i still feel it's safer to invest in singapore property than other investments.
You have been repeating these over many years and many many times in many many threads.
Can I suggest you start a separate thread titled "Arcachon's Properties" and one for all. Save your efforts
Finger strength effort, also need to spend my time, too free now.
Also help me to remember what to do next.
Not a bad idea also, maybe reporter can think something about your suggestion.
In SAF you get 2 dollar for the suggestion. You can even recycle your suggestion year after year.
Finger strength effort, also need to spend my time, too free now.
Also help me to remember what to do next.
Not a bad idea also, maybe reporter can think something about your suggestion.
In SAF you get 2 dollar for the suggestion. You can even recycle your suggestion year after year.
Only lousy organisations can't detect recycled suggestions or staff is of poor quality just to meet the KPI
You just DO IT...no need to wait for others to think about
FH landed properties in prime district bought in the 60s have achieved massive capital gain. It would have cost just $20,000 then. Time your property purchased at each cycle of dip before 2010 would have seen substantial gain now. Do you think there will be the next peak after this dip? :tickled_pink:
True, was in the market since my first HDB in 1988 being through so many cycles.
Each cycle made you stronger.
http://www.area.com.sg/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/1-4.jpg
http://www.area.com.sg/singapore-property-cycle/
FH landed properties in prime district bought in the 60s have achieved massive capital gain. It would have cost just $20,000 then. Time your property purchased at each cycle of dip before 2010 would have seen substantial gain now. Do you think there will be the next peak after this dip? :tickled_pink:
Every commodity, include property, have its own up and down.
But for property, there are many man-made factors, controlling its supply and demand via govt measures. All govt in the world are getting smarter in managing the prices of properties (perhaps, other than HK or core city areas as supply is too limited). As such, IMHO, there would not be another spike in property prices. If it is an uptrend, it will be a very gradual uptrend. If market is heated, more cooling measures will likely be introduced. Or the market pricing is in winter, some non-structure cooling measures will be lifted. I do not see any substantial gain in property prices for short term holders of less than say 10 years.
It is definitely good, to hold good quality freehold properties on hand and IMHO, it is always a must for a prudent investor as well.
I experienced two property down-turns, the paper losses made me sleepless as I was badly over-stretched and definitely, I would not want that to happen again to me.
I have structured my investment now in a much more balanced portfolio, around 40% in liquid investment and 60% in properties. I think it is right weight assigned. I am targetting 50/50 for liquid investment and property next year.
Only lousy organisations can't detect recycled suggestions or staff is of poor quality just to meet the KPI
You just DO IT...no need to wait for others to think about
Not bad for a Small city state, that was 10 years ago, maybe they are better now.
Every commodity, include property, have its own up and down.
But for property, there are many man-made factors, controlling its supply and demand via govt measures. All govt in the world are getting smarter in managing the prices of properties (perhaps, other than HK or core city areas as supply is too limited). As such, IMHO, there would not be another spike in property prices. If it is an uptrend, it will be a very gradual uptrend. If market is heated, more cooling measures will likely be introduced. Or the market pricing is in winter, some non-structure cooling measures will be lifted. I do not see any substantial gain in property prices for short term holders of less than say 10 years.
It is definitely good, to hold good quality freehold properties on hand and IMHO, it is always a must for a prudent investor as well.
I experienced two property down-turns, the paper losses made me sleepless as I was badly over-stretched and definitely, I would not want that to happen again to me.
I have structured my investment now in a much more balanced portfolio, around 40% in liquid investment and 60% in properties. I think it is right weight assigned. I am targetting 50/50 for liquid investment and property next year.
Agreed.
All the data (economic, demographic, land price, segmental x-ref pricing etc) I am looking at are suggesting more of an opportunity to underweight property in this cycle, to transfer some risks to the brave.
As Amber put it aptly, the market has became fragmented.
Not seeing rental values catching up soon; it is still going to be a renter market, not landlord’s.
You are right, mine all within MAS Guidelines.
200K(5 room HDB) - 1995
428K(Southbank) - 2006
660K(Southbank Cash out) - 2011
750K(Terrasse) - 2011
wow 6 years no action, very itchy.
https://s3-ap-southeast-1.amazonaws.com/static.streetsine/CoolingMeasure/NLP_Resale_HD_2.jpg
https://www.srx.com.sg/cooling-measures
$660 k is Southbank’s realised profit?
(I asked the financial only because you are so keen to share it publicly)
anythingwhatever
26-07-17, 07:26
You are right, mine all within MAS Guidelines.
200K(5 room HDB) - 1995
428K(Southbank) - 2006
660K(Southbank Cash out) - 2011
750K(Terrasse) - 2011
wow 6 years no action, very itchy.
https://s3-ap-southeast-1.amazonaws.com/static.streetsine/CoolingMeasure/NLP_Resale_HD_2.jpg
https://www.srx.com.sg/cooling-measures
Wah, Sifu, Salute!! :)
anythingwhatever
26-07-17, 07:28
You have been repeating these over many years and many many times in many many threads.
Can I suggest you start a separate thread titled "Arcachon's Properties" and one for all. Save your efforts
Rather seeing these than the repeating Millions Ears Peek Prize. :p
Anyway, an Arcachon's Properties' thread is a good idea too haha. :)
Amber Woods
26-07-17, 09:37
Every commodity, include property, have its own up and down.
But for property, there are many man-made factors, controlling its supply and demand via govt measures. All govt in the world are getting smarter in managing the prices of properties (perhaps, other than HK or core city areas as supply is too limited). As such, IMHO, there would not be another spike in property prices. If it is an uptrend, it will be a very gradual uptrend. If market is heated, more cooling measures will likely be introduced. Or the market pricing is in winter, some non-structure cooling measures will be lifted. I do not see any substantial gain in property prices for short term holders of less than say 10 years.
It is definitely good, to hold good quality freehold properties on hand and IMHO, it is always a must for a prudent investor as well.
I experienced two property down-turns, the paper losses made me sleepless as I was badly over-stretched and definitely, I would not want that to happen again to me.
I have structured my investment now in a much more balanced portfolio, around 40% in liquid investment and 60% in properties. I think it is right weight assigned. I am targetting 50/50 for liquid investment and property next year.
Very sound advice.
As for Arcachon, what he did was he refinanced his Southbank at 2011 valuation price and cash out $660K to buy The Terrasse with another $750K loan increasing his total debt to $1.3m. This method is taught by most gurus in property seminars often using catchy phase like "buy property without zero cash".
If property prices in RCR decline by 30% as predicted by Terrybear comes true, Arcachon's Southbank and The Terrassa valuations will be reduced by 30% and his bank may ask him to top up the difference because his loan of $1.3 m exceeds the total LTV at 60% now. Arcachon can become over-stretched or over-leveraged in this case. He may be forced to sell off one of his property.
Do not envy his portfolio blindly without looking at his high debt borrowed at 2011 prices.
Very sound advice.
As for Arcachon, what he did was he refinanced his Southbank at 2011 valuation price and cash out $660K to buy The Terrasse with another $750K loan increasing his total debt to $1.3m. This method is taught by most gurus in property seminars often using catchy phase like "buy property without zero cash".
If property prices in RCR decline by 30% as predicted by Terrybear comes true, Arcachon's Southbank and The Terrassa valuations will be reduced by 30% and his bank may ask him to top up the difference because his loan of $1.3 m exceeds the total LTV at 60% now. Arcachon can become over-stretched or over-leveraged in this case. He may be forced to sell off one of his property.
Do not envy his portfolio blindly without looking at his high debt borrowed at 2011 prices.
I watched Grant Cardone show on youtube. He is a US based property guru. During the subprime crash he had his valuation crushed and the bank calling on him to top up the difference. He refused and bank calling on him in technical default. He continued making his regular payment in an escrow account, while the bank making their case in the court of law. In the end he won. The bank can't force you to foreclosure if you make regular payment.
Amber Woods
26-07-17, 10:20
I watched Grant Cardone show on youtube. He is a US based property guru. During the subprime crash he had his valuation crushed and the bank calling on him to top up the difference. He refused and bank calling on him in technical default. He continued making his regular payment in an escrow account, while the bank making their case in the court of law. In the end he won. The bank can't force you to foreclosure if you make regular payment.
The problem is Arcachon is currently in negative cash position. Provided he can continue to pay his mortgage payment faithfully, he will be forced to sell.
Our banking laws here also required borrower to satisfy LTV as per MAS's requirements.
$660 k is Southbank’s realised profit?
(I asked the financial only because you are so keen to share it publicly)
All loan
The problem is Arcachon is currently in negative cash position. Provided he can continue to pay his mortgage payment faithfully, he will be forced to sell.
Our banking laws here also required borrower to satisfy LTV as per MAS's requirements.
Refinance twice with the same Bank under MAS many many guidelines.
Very sound advice.
As for Arcachon, what he did was he refinanced his Southbank at 2011 valuation price and cash out $660K to buy The Terrasse with another $750K loan increasing his total debt to $1.3m. This method is taught by most gurus in property seminars often using catchy phase like "buy property without zero cash".
If property prices in RCR decline by 30% as predicted by Terrybear comes true, Arcachon's Southbank and The Terrassa valuations will be reduced by 30% and his bank may ask him to top up the difference because his loan of $1.3 m exceeds the total LTV at 60% now. Arcachon can become over-stretched or over-leveraged in this case. He may be forced to sell off one of his property.
Do not envy his portfolio blindly without looking at his high debt borrowed at 2011 prices.
Total debt is 428K+660K+750K.
PC bought without CPF money.
HDB use CPF for 200k 25 years loan.
Property on hand.
5 room 126 sqm HDB at Balam road 370027
Southbank 2 Bedroom 958 sqft 198784
Terrasse 1453 sqft 3 Bedroom PH. 544780
Amber Woods
26-07-17, 10:44
Refinance twice with the same Bank under MAS many many guidelines.
In 2011, you met all the MAS's requirements and that was when property prices were at 2011 high. You should be fine as long as you pay your monthly mortgage faithfully. If you miss any payment especially if property prices decline further and causing hardship, you will find yourself having to sell at least one of your property.
So your total debt is $1.8m. Keep finger cross property prices will not crash on you and you can continue to pay your mortgage faithfully.
I don't think it is difficult to sell a Terrasse penthouse for 1.3m at today's market. It is probably valued at 1.5m today or more.
Market index down 30% doesn't mean all property down by 30%.
I see the market as not-up (=down) for the last 4 years, presenting itself as "already down by more than 30%". Many compromises in final product offering were made to "create" this down effect. Overpriced CCR were forced to correct massively, developers were squeezed to offer cheaper products (and poorer finishing) to manage costs, "unusable" areas by proportion has continued to go up as sizes of properties shrink, and older properties sellers (who have bought at yesterday's prices) were forced to accept disproportionately lower prices, just to name a few compromises in the equation.
Any lower will cause supply to shut off almost completely (even from the older properties group). I believe cost-push factors will continue to inch the prices upwards from this point.
In 2011, you met all the MAS's requirements and that was when property prices were at 2011 high. You should be fine as long as you pay your monthly mortgage faithfully. If you miss any payment especially if property prices decline further and causing hardship, you will find yourself having to sell at least one of your property.
So your total debt is $1.8m. Keep finger cross property prices will not crash on you and you can continue to pay your mortgage faithfully.
You are right, that is why need to keep repeating to myself what I having. Thank everyone for bearing with me all this years.
Ordinary Account (OA) $128,289.61
Special Account (SA) $113,035.74
Medisave Account (MA) $49,796.17
$1,020.00. (*OA: $413.62 *SA: $317.01 *MA: $289.37)
$189,820.72 Net Amount Used
$ 70,680.29 Accrued Interest
$260,501.01 Total
Date Of Application 25 Oct 1993
Date Of Purchase 01 Nov 1995
Purchase Price $225,600
Loan Commencement Date Nov 1995
Loan Expiry Date Oct 2020
Interest Rate (p.a.) * 2.60% (Concessionary)
Monthly Instalment $923.00
I pay $600
Wife pays $263
If you pay off your mortgage of $41,168.80, your interest savings will be $2,174.80.
3 years 11 months
tonymontana
26-07-17, 10:56
$660 k is Southbank’s realised profit?
(I asked the financial only because you are so keen to share it publicly)
Southbank was bought for below 600k (600psf) and today is 1.5m (1500psf)
-------------------------------------------------
30 Jun 2006 881#25 - xx904 sqft84 sqmS$548,000(S$606.08 psf)
30 Jun 2006881#27 - xx958 sqft89 sqmS$585,000(S$610.66 psf)
30 Jun 2006881#27 - xx904 sqft84 sqmS$561,000(S$620.46 psf)
30 Jun 2006881#28 - xx958 sqft89 sqmS$607,000(S$633.62 psf)
30 Jun 2006881#28 - xx614 sqft57 sqmS$463,000(S$754.63 psf)
30 Jun 2006881#28 - xx1,313 sqft122 sqmS$808,000(S$615.29 psf)
and today transacting around 1.5m (slightly less)
17 May 2017881#18 - xx592 sqft55 sqmS$878,000(S$1,483.07 psf)
24 Apr 2017881#25 - xx958 sqft89 sqmS$1.450M(S$1,513.59 psf)
14 Dec 2016881#34 - xx958 sqft89 sqmS$1.450M(S$1,513.59 psf)
9 Nov 2016881#16 - xx969 sqft90 sqmS$1.446M(S$1,492.64 psf)
Total debt is 428K+660K+750K.
PC bought without CPF money.
HDB use CPF for 200k 25 years loan.
Property on hand.
5 room 126 sqm HDB at Balam road 370027
Southbank 2 Bedroom 958 sqft 198784
Terrasse 1453 sqft 3 Bedroom PH. 544780
other 2 properties on rental?
other 2 properties on rental?
Southbank 4K
5 room HDB 2.8K
Staying at Terrasse, not many ten years left.
428K 67th Instalment 04/01/2016 $1,551.84 1.68% $349,803.32
660K 56th Instalment 04/01/2016 $2,386.19 1.68% $555,732.84
750K 18th Instalment 04/01/2016 $2,928.03 1.68% $732,172.35
tonymontana
26-07-17, 11:02
Agreed.
All the data (economic, demographic, land price, segmental x-ref pricing etc) I am looking at are suggesting more of an opportunity to underweight property in this cycle, to transfer some risks to the brave.
As Amber put it aptly, the market has became fragmented.
Not seeing rental values catching up soon; it is still going to be a renter market, not landlord’s.
the high rentals of 2010-2013 was an anomaly. rentals today are normalized values, they didn't crash. for CCR condos or even RCR, getting tenants not difficult.
but of course, let's put it in perspective.
if you have 100m worth of funds, then yes, you're right to go for 50:50 asset allocation. You're considered HNWI already. probably have a sentosa cove property.
but for normal individuals who need to leverage up, who needs time to build up assets passively, singapore property is a fine way of doing it.
my personal opinion of course.
tonymontana
26-07-17, 11:16
Southbank 4K
5 room HDB 2.8K
Staying at Terrasse, not many ten years left.
4
thanks for so openly sharing. salute.
As you rightly mentioned, that is US lah, stupid!
In US you can accuse the Presidents like Trump for committing cronyism and nepotism because he appointed his family members and his cronies to key positions and trying to enrich himself and trying to hid his income tax filing and nothing will happen to you!
Well, you can try that in Singapore and see how???? :tongue-fingers:
I watched Grant Cardone show on youtube. He is a US based property guru. During the subprime crash he had his valuation crushed and the bank calling on him to top up the difference. He refused and bank calling on him in technical default. He continued making his regular payment in an escrow account, while the bank making their case in the court of law. In the end he won. The bank can't force you to foreclosure if you make regular payment.
May be I was lucky with 4 tries at the low. I believe property is an art as well as science. Plus luck.
Every commodity, include property, have its own up and down.
But for property, there are many man-made factors, controlling its supply and demand via govt measures. All govt in the world are getting smarter in managing the prices of properties (perhaps, other than HK or core city areas as supply is too limited). As such, IMHO, there would not be another spike in property prices. If it is an uptrend, it will be a very gradual uptrend. If market is heated, more cooling measures will likely be introduced. Or the market pricing is in winter, some non-structure cooling measures will be lifted. I do not see any substantial gain in property prices for short term holders of less than say 10 years.
It is definitely good, to hold good quality freehold properties on hand and IMHO, it is always a must for a prudent investor as well.
I experienced two property down-turns, the paper losses made me sleepless as I was badly over-stretched and definitely, I would not want that to happen again to me.
I have structured my investment now in a much more balanced portfolio, around 40% in liquid investment and 60% in properties. I think it is right weight assigned. I am targetting 50/50 for liquid investment and property next year.
Bro, can u pass us your 4D no and your luck?
Need luck and actually for most people, circumstances that land up at the right place at the right time
May be I was lucky with 4 tries at the low. I believe property is an art as well as science. Plus luck.
Very sound advice.
As for Arcachon, what he did was he refinanced his Southbank at 2011 valuation price and cash out $660K to buy The Terrasse with another $750K loan increasing his total debt to $1.3m. This method is taught by most gurus in property seminars often using catchy phase like "buy property without zero cash".
If property prices in RCR decline by 30% as predicted by Terrybear comes true, Arcachon's Southbank and The Terrassa valuations will be reduced by 30% and his bank may ask him to top up the difference because his loan of $1.3 m exceeds the total LTV at 60% now. Arcachon can become over-stretched or over-leveraged in this case. He may be forced to sell off one of his property.
Do not envy his portfolio blindly without looking at his high debt borrowed at 2011 prices.
That is more than max leveraged.
the high rentals of 2010-2013 was an anomaly. rentals today are normalized values, they didn't crash. for CCR condos or even RCR, getting tenants not difficult.
but of course, let's put it in perspective.
if you have 100m worth of funds, then yes, you're right to go for 50:50 asset allocation. You're considered HNWI already. probably have a sentosa cove property.
but for normal individuals who need to leverage up, who needs time to build up assets passively, singapore property is a fine way of doing it.
my personal opinion of course.
I have consistently been saying, buy property but know the risks. And buy prudently!
I am only responding to Laguna's post.
Every individual's property portfolio is different. The properties are acquired in different times, with different entry prices. So it is normal to assess the portfolio weight from time to time.
The goal of an investor is to maximize return of money deployed. There are so many investment options, property is but one. For example, I mentioned AUDUSD coincidentally the other day; it is amongst the currency pairs that I trade regularly. It turned in a monster return just recently.
Last property purchase was in 2010. Shifted to equity in three major markets by leveraging on the law of averaging. Saw 70-80% gain and took profit recently as one should not be too greedy but the bull is still charging. Waiting for opportunity now but into property.
Bro, can u pass us your 4D no and your luck?
Need luck and actually for most people, circumstances that land up at the right place at the right time
Last property purchase was in 2010. Shifted to equity in three major markets by leveraging on the law of averaging. Saw 70-80% gain and took profit recently as one should not be too greedy but the bull is still charging. Waiting for opportunity now but into property.
10%+(3%-5400)
http://www.100qns.com/uploads/2/1/2/7/21272004/6107390_orig.png
http://www.100qns.com/absd-guide.html
It is sure lose for multiple properties owner and giving money to garment. It is better to invest this money in other vehicles at least still have some returns.
10%+(3%-5400)
http://www.100qns.com/uploads/2/1/2/7/21272004/6107390_orig.png
http://www.100qns.com/absd-guide.html
You are right, mine all within MAS Guidelines.
200K(5 room HDB) - 1995
428K(Southbank) - 2006
660K(Southbank Cash out) - 2011
750K(Terrasse) - 2011
wow 6 years no action, very itchy.
https://s3-ap-southeast-1.amazonaws.com/static.streetsine/CoolingMeasure/NLP_Resale_HD_2.jpg
https://www.srx.com.sg/cooling-measures
Since these financials are shared publicly, can I borrow them to illustrate?
The structure of a typical property investment is really straight forward.
You put up a sum of money and borrow the rest to fund a purchase. The total sum becomes the working capital. The key is the “working” in working capital.
The sum of money put up is the equity to cushion a potential fall in the property value after having purchased it. How much to put up is a calibration of potential risk assessed in a property cycle, and therefore a measurement of the amount of leverage.
For example, 20% money put up with 80% bank borrowing means a leverage ratio of 4.
(
Therefore, the structure of a property investment is the same as trading. Leverage is involved, it is just the degree of leverage.
The difference is the leverage ratio of the underlying instrument; for example a trade of currency the leverage ratio is 40, for stock index the leverage ratio is 20.
The difference is also in the time duration of the trade.
Property investment is simply a trade of 20-, 25-years etc. It is just an open trade until it is closed, until the property is sold. It is called an “investment” just to make it sound more atas.
)
The rental income, the cash inflow is to be used to fund the mortgage payment. At the end of the loan tenure, the property is fully paid for.
Simple.
Now how about applying this simple process here?
If we add up all 3 properties to consider them as one ‘property’, then the total sum borrowed is $1.8 mil.
But $1.3 mil out of $1.8 mil is actually money that is “non-working”, because Terrasse is for own-stay purpose.
Secondly, out of the amount of equity put up, almost $500 k (being Southbank’s real equity) is not locked in. This, as Amber highlighted, is exposed to market condition.
Since these financials are shared publicly, can I borrow them to illustrate?
I am happy to let you share but remember to link to this forum the reason being not many will believe what you share.
I was in United State when 11 Sept 2001 event happen and witness the history changing event on site, the next day one News article wrote that after a few years people will start to believe the event was not truth and it was some Hollywood movie.
Being a Christian I believe the News and I start to read about the New Sept 11. Christ die for the sinner and those who believe in him is willing to give their life but after so many years how many believe it is truth.
Spend 20 week in the land of Milk and Honey and to see first hand where Christ leads to Crucifixion, there are still so many un believers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKR2cvU1Olc
The structure of a typical property investment is really straight forward.
You put up a sum of money and borrow the rest to fund a purchase. The total sum becomes the working capital. The key is the “working” in working capital.
The sum of money put up is the equity to cushion a potential fall in the property value after having purchased it. How much to put up is a calibration of potential risk assessed in a property cycle, and therefore a measurement of the amount of leverage.
For example, 20% money put up with 80% bank borrowing means a leverage ratio of 4.
(Therefore, the structure of a property investment is the same as trading. Leverage is involved, it is just the degree of leverage.
The difference is the leverage ratio of the underlying instrument; for example a trade of currency the leverage ratio is 40, for stock index the leverage ratio is 20.
The difference is also in the time duration of the trade.
Property investment is simply a trade of 20-, 25-years etc. It is just an open trade until it is closed, until the property is sold. It is called an “investment” just to make it sound more atas.)
The rental income, the cash inflow is to be used to fund the mortgage payment. At the end of the loan tenure, the property is fully paid for.
Simple.
Now how about applying this simple process here?
If we add up all 3 properties to consider them as one ‘property’, then the total sum borrowed is $1.8 mil.
But $1.3 mil out of $1.8 mil is actually money that is “non-working” because Terrasse is for own-stay purpose.
Secondly, out of the amount of equity put up, almost $500 k (being Southbank’s real equity) is not locked in. This, as Amber highlighted, is exposed to market condition.
You need to watch this to understand what and how I think.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsrtB5lp60s
Nothing complicated, simple believe money printing is beyond control.
All the bull shit is just to hid the money printing from the World.
Tell me what you know about "Who controls the money supply and who print the money."
i basically have a simple question - whys there such a huge difference in the price of city fringe condos, given that they're all considered to be on the fringe of the city? lets see one example that immediately came to mind today while reading the papers.
today's straits times said Commonwealth towers sold 40+ units over the past months at $1899 psf average. wow? queenstown at almost $1900?! redhill (echelon) was $2000-2100 psf at its peak? whys the psf so high for this section of the city fringe?
then for comparison, look at eight riversuites at boon keng or those at potong pasir ($1300-1500 psf). isnt D12/13 kinda ok as well? agree that its not as atas. but would u really pay $500 psf more for redhill/ queenstown?
can i hear some of your views? im quite puzzled. why is redhill/ queenstown so superior and boon keng/ potong pasir lagging behind so much?
If I pay 500k less to stay in PP compared to QT, and yet I am in city fringe, why not.... U know how many years we need to work to save 500k? Owing this money means we reduce on lifestyle for years, and I don't tink tis is a good way of living....provided u have 500k to spare without feeling a pinch!!! And for QT, the price is easier to go down than go up . And the reason for such a difference have to do with QT is a more matured estate and nearer to town. And developers spoil the market by bidding too much, and people are suck in by fear..... u see those who bought ascential sky, didn't resale at 2k psf, but resale at your purchase price, means ....next time u resell your Commonwealth towers, Queens Peak will either at your purchase price or lower, good luck to those who bought!
If I pay 500k less to stay in PP compared to QT, and yet I am in city fringe, why not.... U know how many years we need to work to save 500k? Owing this money means we reduce on lifestyle for years, and I don't tink tis is a good way of living....provided u have 500k to spare without feeling a pinch!!! And for QT, the price is easier to go down than go up . And the reason for such a difference have to do with QT is a more matured estate and nearer to town. And developers spoil the market by bidding too much, and people are suck in by fear..... u see those who bought ascential sky, didn't resale at 2k psf, but resale at your purchase price, means ....next time u resell your Commonwealth towers, Queens Peak will either at your purchase price or lower, good luck to those who bought!
Perhaps they see the home as a utility rather than an investment. While they purchase QT for $500k, when it comes time to sell they will also be able to sell it for +/- $500k more than PP. Anyway i think with today's high prices for housing and so much uncertainty in jobs, it is difficult (although not impossible and not the choice of many) to stay in the job for 30+ years just to pay off the housing loan.
Not all RCRs are equal. Just like not all CCRs are equal and not all OCRs are equal.
Amber Woods
31-07-17, 11:15
You need to watch this to understand what and how I think.
Nothing complicated, simple believe money printing is beyond control.
All the bull shit is just to hid the money printing from the World.
Tell me what you know about "Who controls the money supply and who print the money."
I am not an economist but do understand some basic economics which I hope Leeds or some other experts can correct me if I go out of line.
As a consumer, we should not be looking at the supply side (central banks) of money and try to base our decision making in buying property. As individual, we cannot influence the economy but instead we suffer from the changes in the economy. Central bank uses monetary policy and government uses fiscal policy and collectively they try to manage the economy.
As an individual, we should be concern with income and debt. Our income generated from our assets and earnings from being employed must be able to finance our debts.
Unlike in the US where one could walk out of the housing loan without further liability even if the mortgage is greater than the value of the house. In Singapore, your housing debt remains even after the forced sale of your home if the sale proceed cannot cover the mortgage. Hence, the approach to housing loan must be prudent because housing prices can boom or burst during the economic life span.
To be prudent, we need to manage our cash flows in any investment, especially so in property which is illiquid. If we cannot afford negative cash flow for an extended period of time, then we should review and take action now. We must not live and hope that the property prices will continue to rise or maintain its value. This is the assumption that most people make when buying property and get themselves into trouble.
Most savvy investors will not get into trouble because they know when to enter and get out of the market because they know the amount of risk they can take. They do not necessary buy at the lowest price or sell at the highest price. Greed kill!
Of course, there are also many rich individuals who buy properties to keep and they never need to worry about the up and down. Having said that, most rich people actually don't do that or how then they become rich in the first place.
The assumption is that QT is more valuable than PP & the same premium would continue into the future.
And not all have intention to pay the loan fully, meaning if the underlying value exceed the purchase price, will cash out & move on.
I am not an economist but do understand some basic economics which I hope Leeds or some other experts can correct me if I go out of line.
As a consumer, we should not be looking at the supply side (central banks) of money and try to base our decision making in buying property. As individual, we cannot influence the economy but instead we suffer from the changes in the economy. Central bank uses monetary policy and government uses fiscal policy and collectively they try to manage the economy.
As an individual, we should be concern with income and debt. Our income generated from our assets and earnings from being employed must be able to finance our debts.
Unlike in the US where one could walk out of the housing loan without further liability even if the mortgage is greater than the value of the house. In Singapore, your housing debt remains even after the forced sale of your home if the sale proceed cannot cover the mortgage. Hence, the approach to housing loan must be prudent because housing prices can boom or burst during the economic life span.
To be prudent, we need to manage our cash flows in any investment, especially so in property which is illiquid. If we cannot afford negative cash flow for an extended period of time, then we should review and take action now. We must not live and hope that the property prices will continue to rise or maintain its value. This is the assumption that most people make when buying property and get themselves into trouble.
Most savvy investors will not get into trouble because they know when to enter and get out of the market because they know the amount of risk they can take. They do not necessary buy at the lowest price or sell at the highest price. Greed kill!
Of course, there are also many rich individuals who buy properties to keep and they never need to worry about the up and down. Having said that, most rich people actually don't do that or how then they become rich in the first place.
Property and cash is similar to tortoise and hare race. Tortoise (property) is slow but consistent, while hare (cash) is fast but lazy. In the beginning hare maybe fast at the starting lines, but consistent tortoise win at the end. Life is never a sprint, its a marathon.
Well well, isn't that what I said all along?!
Just buy a freehold property in CCR correct location and then sleep on it and you will do much better than anybody else who don't 50 years down the road (in the long run)! :p
This way of investing will significantly beats those who tries to flip their 99-years leasehold property every 10 years (or less)! - These people only benefits the Gov coffers with ABSD, SSD, extra stamp duties in replacement purchase and also the agents collecting fat agent fees.............
Property and cash is similar to tortoise and hare race. Tortoise (property) is slow but consistent, while hare (cash) is fast but lazy. In the beginning hare maybe fast at the starting lines, but consistent tortoise win at the end. Life is never a sprint, its a marathon.
A FH Unit at Astrid Meadows bought in 2005 sold for $3.1 million profit (extracted from the edge property dated 31 July 2017.
Well well, isn't that what I said all along?!
Just buy a freehold property in CCR correct location and then sleep on it and you will do much better than anybody else who don't 50 years down the road (in the long run)! :p
This way of investing will significantly beats those who tries to flip their 99-years leasehold property every 10 years (or less)! - These people only benefits the Gov coffers with ABSD, SSD, extra stamp duties in replacement purchase and also the agents collecting fat agent fees.............
tonymontana
31-07-17, 21:27
A FH Unit at Astrid Meadows bought in 2005 sold for $3.1 million profit (extracted from the edge property dated 31 July 2017.
Nice place, astrid meadows. they don't make them like they used to anymore.
Hence, why people buy new apartment at so high $psf with large A/C ledges and balcony but small master bedroom, mini kitchen and toilet for while developer is laughing to the bank.
Nice place, astrid meadows. they don't make them like they used to anymore.
Buying at the wrong time and wrong location - lose money
Buying at the wrong time and right location - still lose money
Buying at the right time and right location - make money!
Buying at the right time and wrong location -still make money
But no one have such crystal ball
Let me tell you this based on my experience (don't need crystal ball):
Buy FREEHOLD property in CCR right location even at WRONG TIMING - 50 years later you will still make SIGNIFICANT PROFITS
and better off than somebody who bought 99-years leasehold property in OCR at RIGHT TIMING!
But no one have such crystal ball
Buying at the wrong time and wrong location - lose money
Buying at the wrong time and right location - still lose money
Buying at the right time and right location - make money!
Buying at the right time and wrong location -still make money
I think you have not been following up with most of the enbloc sales recently.
Let me tell you this based on my experience (don't need crystal ball):
Buy FREEHOLD property in CCR right location even at WRONG TIMING - 50 years later you will still make SIGNIFICANT PROFITS
and better off than somebody who bought 99-years leasehold property in OCR at RIGHT TIMING!
For every successful enbloc sales, there are probably >9 disappointed ones............
Enbloc sales are just DREAMS for many, like striking LOTTERY (again for every 1 you heard of, there are many who sunk in MUCH more money and get little to ZERO return)................
I think you have not been following up with most of the enbloc sales recently.
So how many CCR FH enbloc sales have you encountered in the last 3 years?
For every successful enbloc sales, there are probably >9 disappointed ones............
Enbloc sales are just DREAMS for many, like striking LOTTERY (again for every 1 you heard of, there are many who sunk in MUCH more money and get little to ZERO return)................
If I pay 500k less to stay in PP compared to QT, and yet I am in city fringe, why not.... U know how many years we need to work to save 500k? Owing this money means we reduce on lifestyle for years, and I don't tink tis is a good way of living....provided u have 500k to spare without feeling a pinch!!! And for QT, the price is easier to go down than go up . And the reason for such a difference have to do with QT is a more matured estate and nearer to town. And developers spoil the market by bidding too much, and people are suck in by fear..... u see those who bought ascential sky, didn't resale at 2k psf, but resale at your purchase price, means ....next time u resell your Commonwealth towers, Queens Peak will either at your purchase price or lower, good luck to those who bought!
People see 500k differently.
As I have mentioned before, I don't buy properties to enbloc.
As we all know, those so-called "enbloc potential" properties are all mostly dilapidating, that is why their owners are so eager to enbloc.
Another group of people meanwhile will purposely want to get elected to be MCST members to ensure that the estate is made to become dilapidated so that the other owners will agree to enbloc.
Another group is because they know the 99-years lease is running out, their market value will drop exponentially! What all this means is that such "enbloc potential" estate has extremely low rental rate.
In contrast, High quality well built with good quality workmanship properties, like Ardmore Park, don't think many owners would want to enbloc when they can enjoy the estate or rent out at good rental yield even at about 20 years old (unless the price is SO SO SUPER GOOD that they simply cannot refuse!).
If you want to know about enbloc, you can consult Laguna.
Actually Laguna already had already shared his/her experience about buying "enbloc potential" properties and the conclusion is same as what I mentioned above. If you still have doubts about what Laguna revealed, please raised it here openly.
So in summary, I avoid so-called "enbloc potential" properties, and emphasize on ensuring the estate is kept in best condition and collect best possible rental yields for >100 years!
So how many CCR FH enbloc sales have you encountered in the last 3 years?
tonymontana
01-08-17, 00:22
Let me tell you this based on my experience (don't need crystal ball):
Buy FREEHOLD property in CCR right location even at WRONG TIMING - 50 years later you will still make SIGNIFICANT PROFITS
and better off than somebody who bought 99-years leasehold property in OCR at RIGHT TIMING!
based on your OWN experience, buy CCR 50 yrs later significant profits. So meaning you bought your CCR property at 10 years old and you're sixty Now? Or is it 20 y.o and 70 now? Or are you 80 years old?
I think you mean based on your analysis, not your personal experience.
just sayin'. Don't get mad. I (more or less) agree with you. Some LH property in town centre also have significant profits if bought 50 years ago. So not necessarily only freehold.
So that means that for you, no matter 100 (built 1917) or 200 year old (built 1817) property, as long as is CCR FH, will be high quality well built with good quality workmanship properties, and all OCR properties will not have any of those qualities?
That is as scientific and logical (lack of) thinking as the Jurong human particulate filtration principle. But thanks for the entertainment.
As I have mentioned before, I don't buy properties to enbloc.
As we all know, those so-called "enbloc potential" properties are all mostly dilapidating, that is why their owners are so eager to enbloc.
Another group of people meanwhile will purposely want to get elected to be MCST members to ensure that the estate is made to become dilapidated so that the other owners will agree to enbloc.
Another group is because they know the 99-years lease is running out, their market value will drop exponentially! What all this means is that such "enbloc potential" estate has extremely low rental rate.
In contrast, High quality well built with good quality workmanship properties, like Ardmore Park, don't think many owners would want to enbloc when they can enjoy the estate or rent out at good rental yield even at about 20 years old (unless the price is SO SO SUPER GOOD that they simply cannot refuse!).
If you want to know about enbloc, you can consult Laguna.
Actually Laguna already had already shared his/her experience about buying "enbloc potential" properties and the conclusion is same as what I mentioned above. If you still have doubts about what Laguna revealed, please raised it here openly.
So in summary, I avoid so-called "enbloc potential" properties, and emphasize on ensuring the estate is kept in best condition and collect best possible rental yields for >100 years!
You have to ask yourself, if you buy a Kia, what quality of engine, crash safety fittings, and furnishing will you get?
Now, if you are willing to pay much more and buy say a Mercedes Benz E-class, what quality of engine, crash safety fittings, and furnishing will you get?
That basically will tell you about quality of OCR condos vs CCR condos.
And obviously Freehold makes a lot of difference since for 99-years leasehold, your property and land is worth $ZERO at the end of 99-years.
All the above are just common sense that only people without those will dispute these..........................
So that means that for you, no matter 100 (built 1917) or 200 year old (built 1817) property, as long as is CCR FH, will be high quality well built with good quality workmanship properties, and all OCR properties will not have any of those qualities?
That is as scientific and logical (lack of) thinking as the Jurong human particulate filtration principle. But thanks for the entertainment.
So that means you will buy a 30-year old Mercedes or BMW and will not buy a brand new Toyota at the same price, say 100K?
You have to ask yourself, if you buy a Kia, what quality of engine, crash safety fittings, and furnishing will you get?
Now, if you are willing to pay much more and buy say a Mercedes Benz E-class, what quality of engine, crash safety fittings, and furnishing will you get?
That basically will tell you about quality of OCR condos vs CCR condos.
And obviously Freehold makes a lot of difference since for 99-years leasehold, your property and land is worth $ZERO at the end of 99-years.
All the above are just common sense that only people without those will dispute these..........................
99-years leasehold OCR property is like Kia, how to compare?
I will never buy Kia, regardless of price! :p
So that means you will buy a 30-year old Mercedes or BMW and will not buy a brand new Toyota at the same price, say 100K?
thomastansb
01-08-17, 18:17
That is why you should stay away from property since you don't understand the concept of returns.
If the Kia cost me 10k, I can rent out for 10 years. Easily can rent for 12k a year. You say regardless of price, not I say one. If the Kia cost $100, then the returns even higher.
So if I can get an old OCR, left 50 years, at 100k. Rent out 2k a month. The returns is WOW.
99-years leasehold OCR property is like Kia, how to compare?
I will never buy Kia, regardless of price! :p
That is why you should stay away from property since you don't understand the concept of returns.
If the Kia cost me 10k, I can rent out for 10 years. Easily can rent for 12k a year. You say regardless of price, not I say one. If the Kia cost $100, then the returns even higher.
So if I can get an old OCR, left 50 years, at 100k. Rent out 2k a month. The returns is WOW.
I wish real life is as simple as only Lease Hold or Freehold. Like digital world 1 or 0. The realty is not as simple as that. I have a friend that die-die only want to buy freehold. Until now He have not have any property in Singapore. Meanwhile I already pay the installment for current condo for 5 years. The price not change so much which is still around 800k as per price on 2012. At least if I sell my condo I still pocket 240K from the transaction. And in 2012 I just need to pay 128K for the down payment.
Amber Woods
01-08-17, 20:19
I wish real life is as simple as only Lease Hold or Freehold. Like digital world 1 or 0. The realty is not as simple as that. I have a friend that die-die only want to buy freehold. Until now He have not have any property in Singapore. Meanwhile I already pay the installment for current condo for 5 years. The price not change so much which is still around 800k as per price on 2012. At least if I sell my condo I still pocket 240K from the transaction. And in 2012 I just need to pay 128K for the down payment.
Do you mean you bought resale in 2012 and has been renting it out for $4000 pm for 5 years and hence the $240K collected from rental? Do you not offset against your mortgage payment, maintenance fee and property tax off from the $240K?
Do you mean you bought resale in 2012 and has been renting it out for $4000 pm for 5 years and hence the $240K collected from rental? Do you not offset against your mortgage payment, maintenance fee and property tax off from the $240K?
Sorry for the confusion. I bought it for stay. I am PR so I can effort to sell it if I have no choice :)
And keep the 240k after deduct bank loan balance.
Amber Woods
01-08-17, 20:56
Sorry for the confusion. I bought it for stay. I am PR so I can effort to sell it if I have no choice :)
If you bought in 2012, the price level today is about the price level in 2011/2012. How did you manage $240K in paper profit? Did you buy undervalued property in 2012 or you paid market price in 2012?
If you bought in 2012, the price level today is about the price level in 2011/2012. How did you manage $240K in paper profit? Did you buy undervalued property in 2012 or you paid market price in 2012?
I am not sure whether this is consider profit. The loan balance is 552k, 800k-552k = 248k.
You pay instalment from your own pocket to reduce the bank loan don't need to count?????
Oh ho ho, you are a real financial idiot don't know what to say loh..........................
I am not sure whether this is consider profit. The loan balance is 552k, 800k-552k = 248k.
So if I can get an old OCR, left 50 years, at 100k. Rent out 2k a month. The returns is WOW.
Now, using your logic, if I get a FREEHOLD property, rent out for >1000 years at $2k pm, that is total > $24,000,000 = $24 MILLIONS! That is what I will call WOW WOW WOW!
That is why you should stay away from property since you don't understand the concept of returns.
If the Kia cost me 10k, I can rent out for 10 years. Easily can rent for 12k a year. You say regardless of price, not I say one. If the Kia cost $100, then the returns even higher.
So if I can get an old OCR, left 50 years, at 100k. Rent out 2k a month. The returns is WOW.
The only problem is if you live in it. You pay the rent yourself for 20-30 years. Never get to enjoy a single cent of rent, and cannot afford to buy another property.
I would rather take 2 LH properties with 60 years or more each.
So if I can get an old OCR, left 50 years, at 100k. Rent out 2k a month. The returns is WOW.
Now, using your logic, if I get a FREEHOLD property, rent out for >1000 years at $2k pm, that is total > $24,000,000 = $24 MILLIONS! That is what I will call WOW WOW WOW!
I am talking about investment properties lah!
Anyway, a freehold property is only about 20% more than a totally new 99-years leasehold property, and you can't even buy 2LH properties at the same location with the price of a Freehold property!
As to 60 years remaining lease left property, the rental you can get is probably only about half of the new 99-years LH property, so what is the point of getting 2LH with 60 years lease left with same total rental BUT you incur more property taxes, more maintenance funds costs, can't refinance your aging leasehold property with the banks when you need money etc?
The only problem is if you live in it. You pay the rent yourself for 20-30 years. Never get to enjoy a single cent of rent, and cannot afford to buy another property.
I would rather take 2 LH properties with 60 years or more each.
What if it is Hillford, brand new, 60 years LH X 2?
Can rent out 2 properties versus your one precious FH?
I am talking about investment properties lah!
Anyway, a freehold property is only about 20% more than a totally new 99-years leasehold property, and you can't even buy 2LH properties at the same location with the price of a Freehold property!
As to 60 years remaining lease left property, the rental you can get is probably only about half of the new 99-years LH property, so what is the point of getting 2LH with 60 years lease left with same total rental BUT you incur more property taxes, more maintenance funds costs, can't refinance your aging leasehold property with the banks when you need money etc?
Oh really?
I bet you have to hold these properties till the 60 years lease expire because:
1) Very few buyers (if any) would want to take over the babies from you.
2) You cannot refinance when your properties has <40 years lease left.
3) Your REAL return is actually very much lower than a freehold (by virtue that you only can collect rental for 60 years).
4) Your real costs of maintaining 2 properties is actually higher than maintaining 1 property (more property taxes, more maintenance and sinking fund costs, more repairs costs and refurnishing costs for next tenant, etc!)
Buying properties, after all, is about the value of land and capital appreciation (not rental income)!
I will never buy property purely for rental yield because I can make much more money playing Futures with those money!
It is the same principle as playing stocks...............
I can safely say I apply these principles I advocated to properties, stocks, and futures - and in all categories I am making very good money! Can you?????????? :beguiled:
What if it is Hillford, brand new, 60 years LH X 2?
Can rent out 2 properties versus your one precious FH?
aspirations
01-08-17, 23:44
anyway. amidst all the discussion going on above... the plot of land near serangoon gardens was recently sold at a bullish price.. and the expected selling psf is $1600 onwards.. and its not even city fringe..........!!!
tonymontana
01-08-17, 23:51
I am not sure whether this is consider profit. The loan balance is 552k, 800k-552k = 248k.
it's not profit.
Double your rental in the same vicinity of course double costs. From the 30th to 60th year, the rental income will be double that of a single FH. And that already works for many people.
Is just for illustration. My stocks are doing excellently well too. Futures is just betting for me.
Oh really?
I bet you have to hold these properties till the 60 years lease expire because:
1) Very few buyers (if any) would want to take over the babies from you.
2) You cannot refinance when your properties has <40 years lease left.
3) Your REAL return is actually very much lower than a freehold (by virtue that you only can collect rental for 60 years).
4) Your real costs of maintaining 2 properties is actually higher than maintaining 1 property (more property taxes, more maintenance and sinking fund costs, more repairs costs and refurnishing costs for next tenant, etc!)
Buying properties, after all, is about the value of land and capital appreciation (not rental income)!
I will never buy property purely for rental yield because I can make much more money playing Futures with those money!
It is the same principle as playing stocks...............
I can safely say I apply these principles I advocated to properties, stocks, and futures - and in all categories I am making very good money! Can you?????????? :beguiled:
anythingwhatever
01-08-17, 23:59
So if I can get an old OCR, left 50 years, at 100k. Rent out 2k a month. The returns is WOW.
Now, using your logic, if I get a FREEHOLD property, rent out for >1000 years at $2k pm, that is total > $24,000,000 = $24 MILLIONS! That is what I will call WOW WOW WOW!
The problem is, in Singapore, buildings won't last 1000 years lah...
Once the building go enbloc around 50-60 years age, even FH can easily become LH (as seen from the tricks by certain developers which are being followed by more of others).
In land-rich countries, I agree FH would be a lot more relevant.
SG1K? Think again bah. :)
anythingwhatever
02-08-17, 00:04
Double your rental in the same vicinity of course double costs. From the 30th to 60th year, the rental income will be double that of a single FH. And that already works for many people.
Is just for illustration. My stocks are doing excellently well too. Futures is just betting for me.
Bro, would suggest saving your Oxygen on 1000 Ears Peek Prize lah, no need to produce more Carbon Dioxide for Global Warming.
If the Narrow-minded simply can't see value beyond the CCR, just let it be... :)
The FACT is, not all buildings will go enbloc (and the government and Ministers had also told you that)! Why you all still doubt those Ministers and the way you said it is like you are treating them as though they are lying to you????
Soon more and more leasehold properties in Singapore will expire with worth of $ZERO to be handed over to the land owner (which is the Singapore Government) for free! (AND now Singaporeans had finally seen and experience it in the Geylang 60-years leasehold properties' case!)
The problem is, in Singapore, buildings won't last 1000 years lah...
Once the building go enbloc around 50-60 years age, even FH can easily become LH (as seen from certain tricks by developers which are being followed by others).
1000 years? Think again. :)
The truth is already prevailing, and no amount of FAKE NEWS, HALF-TRUTHS can cover up the FACTS................. :cheerful:
Bro, would suggest saving your Oxygen on 1000 Ears Peek Prize lah, no need to produce more Carbon Dioxide for Global Warming.
If the Narrow-minded simply can't see value beyond the CCR, just let it be... :)
The FACT is, not all buildings will go enbloc (and the government and Ministers had also told you that)! Why you all still doubt those Ministers and the way you said it is like you are treating them as though they are lying to you????
Soon more and more leasehold properties in Singapore will expire with worth of $ZERO to be handed over to the land owner (which is the Singapore Government) for free! (AND now Singaporeans had finally seen and experience it in the Geylang 60-years leasehold properties' case!)
anythingwhatever
02-08-17, 00:35
The FACT is, not all buildings will go enbloc (and the government and Ministers had also told you that)! Why you all still doubt those Ministers and the way you said it is like you are treating them as though they are lying to you????
Soon more and more leasehold properties in Singapore will expire with worth of $ZERO to be handed over to the land owner (which is the Singapore Government) for free! (AND now Singaporeans had finally seen and experience it in the Geylang 60-years leasehold properties' case!)
Well, I don't think you really understood my previous post...
The trend is, more and more of your precious old FH Projects will be enbloc by the time they reach 50-60 years of age, due to buildings deterioration, increasing maintenance costs, escalating repairs, one way or another. 1000 Ears is nothing but a pipe dream.
Upon enbloc, these FH owners will be competing for fewer and fewer FH units in the market, or simply have to move to LH properties which form the majorities
Also, upon enbloc, developers can easily turn the new project sitting on FH sites into LH (unless laws are amended to forbid this practice).
Now, for such FH-to-LH cases, only the developers would benefit as they hold on to the land for 1000 Ears,. The homeowners would lose out to even LH99 Owners as they don't have 1% chance to initiate enbloc, since the land belongs to the Developers
For the current batch of FH owners, good for them, but can they/family really hold on to their properties for 1000 Ears? I seriously doubt so..
Fake News? Look again:
http://m.stproperty.sg/articles-property/condominium/homes-sold-as-leasehold-tenures-on-freehold-sites/a/168526
anythingwhatever
02-08-17, 00:38
The truth is already prevailing, and no amount of FAKE NEWS, HALF-TRUTHS can cover up the FACTS................. :cheerful:
To be honest, there's really no need to use so much RED BOLD text to highlight your point...
I suppose I'm not the only one getting irritated by such antics. :)
Anyway, good night to everyone. :)
anyway. amidst all the discussion going on above... the plot of land near serangoon gardens was recently sold at a bullish price.. and the expected selling psf is $1600 onwards.. and its not even city fringe..........!!!
yup...let's see the market take up rate or the size of the units
3 bedders 750 sf
anythingwhatever
02-08-17, 08:30
yup...let's see the market take up rate or the size of the units
3 bedders 750 sf
Cramp. :(
anythingwhatever
02-08-17, 09:10
yup...let's see the market take up rate or the size of the units
3 bedders 750 sf
Oh wait, recall 4-Bedders at 646sqft as below.
3BR @ 750sqft considered very spacious still... :p
The Smallest 4 Bedder ever? ;)
https://www.singaporeexpats.com/singapore-property-pictures/floorplan/central-imperial/floorplan-TypeC1.jpg
tonymontana
02-08-17, 09:26
To be honest, there's really no need to use so much RED BOLD text to highlight your point...
I suppose I'm not the only one getting irritated by such antics. :)
Anyway, good night to everyone. :)
when teddybear just concentrate on giving opinion on the condos in D10, i read with great interest. he has got good eye for location.
whenever i c the bold red letters, i just skip reading.
*yawn*. conclusion: teddy is good. but his rhetoric gets in the way of us appreciating him. haha
tonymontana
02-08-17, 09:30
yup...let's see the market take up rate or the size of the units
3 bedders 750 sf
the trend is towards smaller spaces with space optimization. those who are holding on to huge freehold D10 units (20 year old condo size 2500 sft in grange road for eg) will find fewer potential suitors when trying to cash out.
tonymontana
02-08-17, 09:31
Oh wait, recall 4-Bedders at 646sqft as below.
3BR @ 750sqft considered very spacious still... :p
OMG. where is this? jade residence?
anythingwhatever
02-08-17, 12:03
OMG. where is this? jade residence?
No, guess one more time... :)
Oh wait, recall 4-Bedders at 646sqft as below.
3BR @ 750sqft considered very spacious still... :p
It is Central Imperial. ICIC
anythingwhatever
02-08-17, 20:21
It is Central Imperial. ICIC
I saw I saw... :p
That should be the most compact 4BR I have ever seen in Singapore.
If you have came across anything smaller, feel free to share with us too. :)
tonymontana
02-08-17, 20:32
you guys are like walking encyclopedia of condo in singapore.
anythingwhatever
02-08-17, 20:54
when teddybear just concentrate on giving opinion on the condos in D10, i read with great interest. he has got good eye for location.
whenever i c the bold red letters, i just skip reading.
*yawn*. conclusion: teddy is good. but his rhetoric gets in the way of us appreciating him. haha
The Jekyll side is good...
The Hyde side better hide. :)
anythingwhatever
02-08-17, 20:56
you guys are like walking encyclopedia of condo in singapore.
Still has much to learn... :)
Oh wait, recall 4-Bedders at 646sqft as below.
3BR @ 750sqft considered very spacious still... :p
see this how big is a four bedders 800sf+
http://www.propertyfishing.com/berkeley-residences/
anythingwhatever
03-08-17, 07:52
see this how big is a four bedders 800sf+
http://www.propertyfishing.com/berkeley-residences/
This one actually can be considered close to 900 sqft:
http://www.propertyfishing.com/wp-content/uploads/berkeley-residences-floor-plan-1d.jpg
you guys are like walking encyclopedia of condo in singapore.
U shall read the BOND thread.....in the coffee talk...then u know
tonymontana
03-08-17, 09:49
U shall read the BOND thread.....in the coffee talk...then u know
i know you guys are damn good. btw it's clear to me sizes are shrinking, just 10 years ago 980 sft 2 bedroom is the norm in OCR, now seeing 700sft as 2 bedroom.
tonymontana
03-08-17, 09:51
This one actually can be considered close to 900 sqft:
[/IMG]
i think i've seen this developers' work in another condo - park residences kovan.
their materials and finishing quite decent, good layout for small units, their appliances (smeg washer and fridge) is hidden into a custom built cabinets, white marble for flooring,
and even aircon blower unit is nicely hidden, balcony has sliding sun-shade.
however the layout of this 4 bedder CMI, it's like a narrow corridor with dorm rooms.
quantum should be fine, it's designed for rental play.
anythingwhatever
03-08-17, 10:03
i know you guys are damn good. btw it's clear to me sizes are shrinking, just 10 years ago 980 sft 2 bedroom is the norm in OCR, now seeing 700sft as 2 bedroom.
Case in point: The longer ones wait, the smaller the units. Buy now. :)
anythingwhatever
03-08-17, 10:05
i think i've seen this developers' work in another condo - park residences kovan.
their materials and finishing quite decent, good layout for small units, their appliances (smeg washer and fridge) is hidden into a custom built cabinets, white marble for flooring,
and even aircon blower unit is nicely hidden, balcony has sliding sun-shade.
however the layout of this 4 bedder CMI, it's like a narrow corridor with dorm rooms.
quantum should be fine, it's designed for rental play.
Indeed.
Curiously, based on floor plans,
the 646sf at Centra Imperial appears to be more spacious than
the 883sf at Berkeley Residences. :)
tonymontana
03-08-17, 10:11
Indeed.
Curiously, based on floor plans,
the 646sf at Centra Imperial appears to be more spacious than
the 883sf at Berkeley Residences. :)
too many rooms. they should have open up at least that one room next to the living area, then nicer.
but this layout is good for rental play. can have multiple tenants. and quantum will be lower so can get better yield.
layout designed for landlording. :p
Case in point: The longer ones wait, the smaller the units. Buy now. :)
Timing is more critical rather than rush in because of size.
I rather have a big place, older one but not too old with lot of space...and can do up to my taste
anyway, not moving house anymore.....so happy with where i live
anythingwhatever
03-08-17, 19:24
Timing is more critical rather than rush in because of size.
I rather have a big place, older one but not too old with lot of space...and can do up to my taste
anyway, not moving house anymore.....so happy with where i live
Laguna Park? :)
Laguna Park? :)
You shall see the Penthouse unit facing sea at Laguna Park.....
Laguna Park just formed Sales Committee last week, I think, this is the third attempt already. Chances of having it sold is slim.
Prices therefore will be dropping if cannot sell, and maintenance is really a big problem...
I have no interest in the project
You shall see the Penthouse unit facing sea at Laguna Park.....
Laguna Park just formed Sales Committee last week, I think, this is the third attempt already. Chances of having it sold is slim.
Prices therefore will be dropping if cannot sell, and maintenance is really a big problem...
I have no interest in the project
Why are the chances slim? Residents don't want to sell?
Why are the chances slim? Residents don't want to sell?
Their asking price could be too high?
tonymontana
04-08-17, 17:36
Their asking price could be too high?
670,000 square feet plot, it's huge. a bit hard to chew for developers? say, at 800 psf ppr for the MRT and superb sea frontage, we're talking about a 1.5B valued enbloc.
There are a few plots of big land there, start from Neptune Court (Not fully privatised, and very difficult as well), Mandarin Garden (too huge), Laguna Park, Lagoon View, Bayshore Park, The Bayshore.
The bit size and the number of units in Mandarin Garden, Bayshore Park and The Bayshore are too hugh and too many, thus make the collection of 80% painful. The risk to developers to pay ABSD is toooo high.
Next Lagoon View (first attempt, Sales Committee appointed long ago), Laguna Park (just formed). Now, the future MRT station is just within minutes, and with Seaview, so, the SP would want very high asking, even more than EunosVille of $2.3m per unit as Eunos only has MRT but not seaview.
So for LP, 527 units x 2.35m (say) = 1.2B and age of property is 99 yrs from 1978. ie 40 years....need a few hundred millions to top up..
Same for LV, 480 units X 2.35 = 1.12B
The project risk is really extremely high.
If done at this price, the launch price with seaview may hit $1900 psf. So, is there a market ?
Developers, most likely to take two small lands rather than just one huge one
aspirations
07-08-17, 23:16
guys, if bukit batok outskirts (not near the mrt) can be selling at 1280 psf, dont u think that D12/13 is severely underpriced?
those in boon keng and potong pasir are just asking for 1300-1600 psf, and without doubt i think all would agree location-wise.. BB is incomparable. sometimes i dont know how the market works.
tonymontana
08-08-17, 00:46
guys, if bukit batok outskirts (not near the mrt) can be selling at 1280 psf, dont u think that D12/13 is severely underpriced?
those in boon keng and potong pasir are just asking for 1300-1600 psf, and without doubt i think all would agree location-wise.. BB is incomparable. sometimes i dont know how the market works.
oh definitely, BK and PP is just a few stops from town, that BB location don't even have MRT line nearby. especially PP it's gonna be hip in 5 years time. for eg, Shops at the Venue are starting to open. And Poiz and bidadari / sph woodleigh commercial, i could go on. Good place.
If sites with such attributes (basically unamenitised) are selling at 1280 psf, this will manifest strongly in next quarter's index. Unless they count their internal facilities (mixed development).
guys, if bukit batok outskirts (not near the mrt) can be selling at 1280 psf, dont u think that D12/13 is severely underpriced?
those in boon keng and potong pasir are just asking for 1300-1600 psf, and without doubt i think all would agree location-wise.. BB is incomparable. sometimes i dont know how the market works.
anythingwhatever
08-08-17, 07:57
If sites with such attributes (basically unamenitised) are selling at 1280 psf, this will manifest strongly in next quarter's index. Unless they count their internal facilities (mixed development).
Yes, definitely counted their own amenities.
And, it's near the future "Second CBD"... :)
tonymontana
08-08-17, 08:21
So for LP, 527 units x 2.35m (say) = 1.2B and age of property is 99 yrs from 1978. ie 40 years....need a few hundred millions to top up..
Same for LV, 480 units X 2.35 = 1.12B
The project risk is really extremely high.
If done at this price, the launch price with seaview may hit $1900 psf. So, is there a market ?
Developers, most likely to take two small lands rather than just one huge one
you're right on the bid size. But i got much higher than 1.12B.
The plot is 670,000 sft, plot ratio is 2.8 at LP. Owners will want at least 800 psf ppr in this market. so 1.5B.
Btw, is there a potential for Intensification of the plot to 3.5 to match seaview?
you're right on the bid size. But i got much higher than 1.12B.
The plot is 670,000 sft, plot ratio is 2.8 at LP. Owners will want at least 800 psf ppr in this market. so 1.5B.
Btw, is there a potential for Intensification of the plot to 3.5 to match seaview?
Even the nearby Costa Del Sol is at 3.6 plot ratio under GLS years ago, under the master plan, all the other big lands are still 2.8
aspirations
13-08-17, 22:09
hung out at Tiong Bahru tonight.. IMHO its better than redhill... theres a mall, mix of new condos, old low-rise HDBs.. market/ cafes.. the vibe is pretty good. no wonder Highline is that expensive. 2000 psf!!
aspirations
19-08-18, 19:05
hi all..
so fast forward 2 years, im done paying off my $1.2m condo in D12 and have about 200k cash in the bank. after months and months of hard work. im turning 30 in a few months (finally hitting the big 3 and not really looking forward to it haha). I believe my condo is now worth slightly more, maybe $1.3m (probably rode on the recent sky high prices in woodleigh and potong pasir) and I am still collecting monthly rental of about 2.7% p.a.
still toying with the idea of selling this condo and moving on with a bigger one, in a more atas location. havent found the guts to make the big move yet, still waiting for the right moment/ opportunity to present itself. asked my parents for advice, and they are asking to wait and see for the next 1-2 years, and hopefully sell my current condo and reinvest in something bigger and better.
should i make the big move now and ride on the high of potong pasir and woodleigh? perhaps wait a bit more for woodleigh residences to launch at their purported $>2k psf?
Older condos’ size and lower psf price a draw in prime districts
The latest property cooling measures could cause homebuyers to search for more affordable options in the resale market. “Older condos have larger unit sizes and a more spacious living area,” says Jacqueline Wong, Savills Singapore head of residential services and private office. “The downside is that these old units will be in need of renovations.”
As it is, some people have started to look at the resale market in the prime districts. A recent sale was at The Tomlinson, a 29-unit freehold develop ment at the corner of Tomlinson and Cuscaden Roads in prime District 10. The 20-storey luxury condo was completed 16 years ago and developed by Wing Tai Holdings.
On July 3, a five-bedroom unit on the 17th floor was sold for $7.2 million ($1,944 psf). The seller had purchased it for $5.5 million ($1,485 psf) in 2004.
https://www.edgeprop.sg/property-news/older-condos’-size-and-lower-psf-price-draw-prime-districts
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