View Full Version : Can't seem to find a suitable condo, suggestions?
HungryPillow
14-05-09, 12:21
I've been property hunting for 3-4 months already but can't find anything really suitable, so hoping the experts here may give some suggestions/advice. I've seen quite a few apartments over this period and there always seems to be something that doesn't quite fit my requirements. Either the place is too small, too far away, too expensive, poor layout, etc.
I admit I do have quite a few requirements (which is probably why I'm having such a hard time) so I will try to list them from most important to least.
1) Space - Must be at least 1,800 sq. ft. I do not care about balconies, gardens, roof terraces, etc. I would prefer all livable area if possible. 2 storey penthouse is ideal, but willing to consider 1 storey if layout is good. Also must be handicap friendly as my mom is wheelchair bound and she will be moving in with me. Minimum 4 bedrooms.
2) Location - Maximum 15 minutes drive to Novena area and easy access to get a taxi (ie. don't have to walk too far out to the road, not a must but it would be ideal). Best if it is walkable to food courts/supermarket/public transportation. Not a deal breaker but strongly preferred.
3) Freehold
4) I need to move in by end of Dec 09. Maximum age of property not more than 20 years.
5) Condos or Apartments are both OK as I do not really care about facilities.
My budget is around S$1.2 million.
Am I being unrealistic with my requirements + budget or do I just need to look harder? Thanks in advance for any help :)
proud owner
14-05-09, 12:46
I've been property hunting for 3-4 months already but can't find anything really suitable, so hoping the experts here may give some suggestions/advice. I've seen quite a few apartments over this period and there always seems to be something that doesn't quite fit my requirements. Either the place is too small, too far away, too expensive, poor layout, etc.
I admit I do have quite a few requirements (which is probably why I'm having such a hard time) so I will try to list them from most important to least.
1) Space - Must be at least 1,800 sq. ft. I do not care about balconies, gardens, roof terraces, etc. I would prefer all livable area if possible. 2 storey penthouse is ideal, but willing to consider 1 storey if layout is good. Also must be handicap friendly as my mom is wheelchair bound and she will be moving in with me. Minimum 4 bedrooms.
2) Location - Maximum 15 minutes drive to Novena area and easy access to get a taxi (ie. don't have to walk too far out to the road, not a must but it would be ideal). Best if it is walkable to food courts/supermarket/public transportation. Not a deal breaker but strongly preferred.
3) Freehold
4) I need to move in by end of Dec 09. Maximum age of property not more than 20 years.
5) Condos or Apartments are both OK as I do not really care about facilities.
My budget is around S$1.2 million.
Am I being unrealistic with my requirements + budget or do I just need to look harder? Thanks in advance for any help :)
by psf, you are willing to pay 666 psf...that i feel is impossible now for anywhere near novena...for that matter D9/10/11 maybe D21/23 but maybe more than 15 mins drive..
i think you have requirements that conflict each other
HungryPillow
14-05-09, 15:10
by psf, you are willing to pay 666 psf...that i feel is impossible now for anywhere near novena...for that matter D9/10/11 maybe D21/23 but maybe more than 15 mins drive..
i think you have requirements that conflict each other
Thanks for the reply :)
Actually, I've long since given up on looking in the Novena area and the surrounding prime areas. I know my budget will not allow for it at all.
I'm not really all that familiar with locations in Singapore, but I thought 15 minutes drive would put me somewhere like Yishun/Kovan/Hougang area? Or are those more than 15 minutes away? If it helps, don't factor in traffic as that's not really an issue.
Anyhow... given the psf, where would you suggest I concentrate on looking at? I've looked as far as Seng Kang and Kovan but still have not found anything suitable... :(
Regulators
14-05-09, 15:44
You can try The Legend along bukit timah which has big floor areas and not much of a balcony. but even that area is more than 1k psf. IMO 1.2 mil budget is not a lot if you are looking for a 1800sf unit which is quite big in highrise living terms. I think for prime D10 or 11, a 1.2 mil budget will get you a 900sf to 1200 plus sf unit max. :)
Thanks for the reply :)
Actually, I've long since given up on looking in the Novena area and the surrounding prime areas. I know my budget will not allow for it at all.
I'm not really all that familiar with locations in Singapore, but I thought 15 minutes drive would put me somewhere like Yishun/Kovan/Hougang area? Or are those more than 15 minutes away? If it helps, don't factor in traffic as that's not really an issue.
Anyhow... given the psf, where would you suggest I concentrate on looking at? I've looked as far as Seng Kang and Kovan but still have not found anything suitable... :(
was flipping through the edge and found a recent transaction for a 1916 sqft unit at lutheran towers for $1,000,000. only issue is that this place is rather old and is not FH. it should have 103 yrs left in its tenure.
this apartment is very well located, close to the future botanic gardens mrt station and should be within 15mins drive to novena.
If you think Yishun is 15mins drive than you can consider Yio Chu Kang area.
Price range from 500 -900psf range. A few freehold property there as well. Newest is Calrose, a very nice FH project. Or look out for soon to launch FH Meadows @ Pierce.
THE CALROSE (http://javascript<b></b>:popUp('submitSISV.do?project_name=THE%20CALROSE&street_name=YIO%20CHU%20KANG%20ROAD&property_type_code=24');) YIO CHU KANG ROAD Condominium $11,010,000 2,024sqft 499psf Jan-09
HungryPillow
15-05-09, 01:21
Thanks for the infos/suggestions...
The Legend is definitely out of budget and I'm definitely not looking at prime areas that's for sure ;)
Lutheran Towers looks interesting but I'd like to try and stay away from 99 years for now if I can.
I did hear about Calrose a few months ago but didn't see anything for sale. Did a quick search after your recommendation and I do see one unit that's 2,000+ sq. ft., but unfortunately it's only 3 rooms. I do like the development from what I can see in the pictures as well as location... couldn't find much info on Pierce @ Meadows, but if it's launching soon that means it won't be complete for at least 1-2 years right? That would push it past my timeframe...
Hmm, instead of going by 15-20 minutes to Novena, maybe this will be easier. If my price range is 600-700 PSF, and given my requirements, which areas or specific condos should I be looking at?
Thanks again for the help :)
michellegoh
18-05-09, 09:59
Have you considered Beacon Heights? Location is at D12.
As your mum is wheelchair bound, it might be good to get a first storey unit and the area would be about 169 sq m ( 3 bedrooms) and 193 sq m (3 bed rooms). There is even private parking for your unit. Think it should be within your budget as well...
michellegoh
18-05-09, 10:01
Oh, and it is about 1 min drive to PIE and CTE...should be quite accessible for you as well...You can go to this website to check it out, www.beaconheights.com.sg (http://www.beaconheights.com.sg)
Thanks for the infos/suggestions...
The Legend is definitely out of budget and I'm definitely not looking at prime areas that's for sure ;)
Lutheran Towers looks interesting but I'd like to try and stay away from 99 years for now if I can.
I did hear about Calrose a few months ago but didn't see anything for sale. Did a quick search after your recommendation and I do see one unit that's 2,000+ sq. ft., but unfortunately it's only 3 rooms. I do like the development from what I can see in the pictures as well as location... couldn't find much info on Pierce @ Meadows, but if it's launching soon that means it won't be complete for at least 1-2 years right? That would push it past my timeframe...
Hmm, instead of going by 15-20 minutes to Novena, maybe this will be easier. If my price range is 600-700 PSF, and given my requirements, which areas or specific condos should I be looking at?
Thanks again for the help :)
www.meadows.sg
HungryPillow
18-05-09, 10:45
Michelle - Beacon Heights looks nice and the location is good, but I need 4 bedrooms and cannot wait until 2012 for construction to complete. I need to move in by December this year or the very latest January next year.
Jitkiat - Anymore info on Meadows @ Pierce? That website isn't very user friendly haha. It hasn't even launched yet so I assume it won't be available until a few years later...
Michelle - Beacon Heights looks nice and the location is good, but I need 4 bedrooms and cannot wait until 2012 for construction to complete. I need to move in by December this year or the very latest January next year.
Jitkiat - Anymore info on Meadows @ Pierce? That website isn't very user friendly haha. It hasn't even launched yet so I assume it won't be available until a few years later...
Consider buying a resale condo at Kovan Melody or freehold condo around that area.
new2mondrian
18-05-09, 12:30
Michelle - Beacon Heights looks nice and the location is good, but I need 4 bedrooms and cannot wait until 2012 for construction to complete. I need to move in by December this year or the very latest January next year.
Jitkiat - Anymore info on Meadows @ Pierce? That website isn't very user friendly haha. It hasn't even launched yet so I assume it won't be available until a few years later...
This fits your criteria quite well. Almost brand new (TOP for ard 6 mths), 4mins walk to Potong Pasir MRT, 1765sq ft, 4brdrooms, 2km to Novena, and it's freehold. I am sure u can close at $1.2M or thereabouts.
Since it's just listed ytd, u might have some luck with this.
http://www.propertyguru.com.sg/listing/387711/for-sale-intero
HungryPillow
18-05-09, 12:55
This fits your criteria quite well. Almost brand new (TOP for ard 6 mths), 4mins walk to Potong Pasir MRT, 1765sq ft, 4brdrooms, 2km to Novena, and it's freehold. I am sure u can close at $1.2M or thereabouts.
Since it's just listed ytd, u might have some luck with this.
http://www.propertyguru.com.sg/listing/387711/for-sale-intero
Thanks for the suggestion, funny you mention Intero as I was actually looking at it last night, it's definitely on my list to view... I just hope the layout is good since the size is on the low end of my requirements.
Does new2mondrian = Parc Mondrian? I was actually eyeing the penthouse unit that was for sale but seems like the construction still has some time to go. I saw the site yesterday and I think it's only at 6 or 7 stories now... :D
new2mondrian
18-05-09, 13:44
Thanks for the suggestion, funny you mention Intero as I was actually looking at it last night, it's definitely on my list to view... I just hope the layout is good since the size is on the low end of my requirements.
Does new2mondrian = Parc Mondrian? I was actually eyeing the penthouse unit that was for sale but seems like the construction still has some time to go. I saw the site yesterday and I think it's only at 6 or 7 stories now... :D
That's sharp of u! Basically when I made an offer Parc Mondrian, I stumbled upon this site and therefore signed up as username "new2mondrian". So much for being creative. heheheee....
Given Parc Mondrian is at the same psf range as Intero, in my PERSONAL (just in case i get flamed later) opinion, it is a better buy than Intero given the layout, the developer/main contractor and the plot size. But since u cannot wait and at the pace at which Parc Mondrian is being built, I seriously would not recommend it to you. Intero is pretty good as well, though the pricing I would not say is totally attractive to convince me to buy. But nonetheless, it suits all your criteria and if you buy it for self-stay, it is actually of a good pricing, a good location (in terms of price point) and proximity to MRT, and it is really walkable to the Potong Pasir town center (5mins walk).
My apt looks right into Intero penthse. So if u buy the Intero unit, my child can wave hello to yours. =)
My child attends a childcare near Novena, so we really do drive to Novena everyday. It is definitely less than 15mins drive (whichever way u take), be it via CTE or via Whampoa/Balestier.
HungryPillow
18-05-09, 14:47
haha... to be honest I also prefer the Woodleigh Close area, but there are only 3 condos there. I still feel Blossoms is a bit on the high side PSF wise, and Euro-Asia Park I quite like but don't see any penthouses for sale...
Any idea when Parc Mondrian is supposed to TOP? End of next year?
new2mondrian
18-05-09, 16:19
:)
haha... to be honest I also prefer the Woodleigh Close area, but there are only 3 condos there. I still feel Blossoms is a bit on the high side PSF wise, and Euro-Asia Park I quite like but don't see any penthouses for sale...
Any idea when Parc Mondrian is supposed to TOP? End of next year?
Woodleigh close is much more exclusive and quieter, but definitely much further from the MRT station as compared to Leicester. So really depends on what u want.
Parc Mondrian is supposed to TOP in Q1 2010. And I called Sembawang Properties a couple of months back, and they confirmed that this timeline is still on track. Can u wait till then? If yes, PM is not bad.
EuroAsia is currently undervalued given its HUGE land plot, low built up and it is enbloc potential (sales committee is formed) over the long term. But EuroAsia has been ard for quite some time and is dated. So really depends on what u want. If u are serious abt self stay, then Parc Mondrian being brand new is definitely more attractive (again to ME), and no medium term risk of en-bloc. Otherwise EuroAsia is good. It is the LAST freehold pty ard the Woodleigh area. When the international school/NEX Mall, Woodleigh commercial/mixed residential area is up, there is long term potential at EuroAsia's current price point of $5xx psf.
Just my 2 cents worth. I am not vested over EuroAsia though! I am a firm believer that leverage is a 2 way sword, so 1 roof over my head will suffice.
HungryPillow
18-05-09, 16:35
I might be able to wait a few months into 2010 if the unit is really worth it... is there a showflat for Parc Mondrian's penthouse? Hard to commit without seeing the layout first, but from the floorplans it looks like a lot of balcony area...
new2mondrian
18-05-09, 16:47
I might be able to wait a few months into 2010 if the unit is really worth it... is there a showflat for Parc Mondrian's penthouse? Hard to commit without seeing the layout first, but from the floorplans it looks like a lot of balcony area...
erm, the showflat has closed. You can view all the various floorplans via SingaporeExpat website. Just search for parc mondrian, then click into floorplans.
Erm, I am not sure abt penthse floorplan. Obviously mine isn't a penthse unit, though I wished it is! :)
Perhaps other considerations would be the diff sizes (e.g. PM is 100 while Blossom is 240 although both FH) ... besides the timeline to move in by end-09 & being elder-friendly ...
PM sounds more exclusive bah .. :2cents:
proud owner
18-05-09, 16:56
Perhaps other considerations would be the diff sizes (e.g. PM is 100 while Blossom is 240 although both FH) ... besides the timeline to move in by end-09 & being elder-friendly ...
PM sounds more exclusive bah .. :2cents:
what about City Square residences ?
FH ... near Farrer station ..near novena
HungryPillow
18-05-09, 18:20
what about City Square residences ?
FH ... near Farrer station ..near novena
I viewed a couple units there, but the sizes were too small and price a bit high.
new2mondrian
19-05-09, 09:13
anyway, I timed the morning drive today from Leicester road (from the apt block beside Intero) to Novena area where I dropped off my child at his childcare. We set off at 8.16am, and we hit Novena Square at 8.25am; taking the Whampoa/Balestier route (the ERP gantry there charges 50cts as opposed to CTE which charged $2). It would have been even faster had we taken the CTE.
Just for your info in case u are seriously considering the Intero unit. For us, it's ju2 shou3 zhi1 lao2. :)
I viewed a couple units there, but the sizes were too small and price a bit high.
How about those condos along Oxford Road near Farrer Park?
HungryPillow
19-05-09, 09:25
anyway, I timed the morning drive today from Leicester road (from the apt block beside Intero) to Novena area where I dropped off my child at his childcare. We set off at 8.16am, and we hit Novena Square at 8.25am; taking the Whampoa/Balestier route (the ERP gantry there charges 50cts as opposed to CTE which charged $2). It would have been even faster had we taken the CTE.
Just for your info in case u are seriously considering the Intero unit. For us, it's ju2 shou3 zhi1 lao2. :)
haha awesome, only 9 mins drive... will definitely have to consider that area. Thanks very much for the timing :)
How about those condos along Oxford Road near Farrer Park?
I'm not very familiar with the area... got any specific condo names? :D
I'm not very familiar with the area... got any specific condo names? :D[/quote]
Kentish Court, Kentish Lodge and Kentish Green but I think all 99 LH
Thanks for the suggestion, funny you mention Intero as I was actually looking at it last night, it's definitely on my list to view... I just hope the layout is good since the size is on the low end of my requirements.
Does new2mondrian = Parc Mondrian? I was actually eyeing the penthouse unit that was for sale but seems like the construction still has some time to go. I saw the site yesterday and I think it's only at 6 or 7 stories now... :D
go read the thread on interno. quality sucks right for this development?
I also look at "Calrose", it does have some very large units.
Check out those floor plans such as Type PC1/2/3...
They are just huge and layout is well designed.
But no body sell them?
[quote=HungryPillow]
I did hear about Calrose a few months ago but didn't see anything for sale. Did a quick search after your recommendation and I do see one unit that's 2,000+ sq. ft., but unfortunately it's only 3 rooms. I do like the development from what I can see in the pictures as well as location...
HungryPillow
25-05-09, 00:52
I also look at "Calrose", it does have some very large units.
Check out those floor plans such as Type PC1/2/3...
They are just huge and layout is well designed.
But no body sell them?
I don't think any Calrose units have 4 bedrooms, it's all 3 or below from what I saw in the floorplans.
I don't think any Calrose units have 4 bedrooms, it's all 3 or below from what I saw in the floorplans.
definitely have...
a colleague is staying in a 4BR unit there
HungryPillow
25-05-09, 09:23
definitely have...
a colleague is staying in a 4BR unit there
Hmm, OK, I'll need to double check then. Do you recall the size of his/her unit?
new2mondrian
25-05-09, 15:25
Hi hungrypillow,
Actually at PropertyGuru, I do see quite a number of large units from Euro-Asia Park on sale. One of which is 2250sqft, 5 bedrooms, asking for $1.15M.
You can take a look if keen.
My in law is also keen on a small unit (1 to 2 bedders) near our place at Parc Mondrian. Do you know if there are any small units at Euro-Asia since you have viewed that place before? Budget is not much, abt $500k. I am not that keen on the new launch at Woodleigh Close by Frasers Centerpoint cos that is a 99-year leasehold unit. But the rest of the devts dun seem to have anything that fit this budget. =p
HungryPillow
25-05-09, 16:51
Hi hungrypillow,
Actually at PropertyGuru, I do see quite a number of large units from Euro-Asia Park on sale. One of which is 2250sqft, 5 bedrooms, asking for $1.15M.
You can take a look if keen.
My in law is also keen on a small unit (1 to 2 bedders) near our place at Parc Mondrian. Do you know if there are any small units at Euro-Asia since you have viewed that place before? Budget is not much, abt $500k. I am not that keen on the new launch at Woodleigh Close by Frasers Centerpoint cos that is a 99-year leasehold unit. But the rest of the devts dun seem to have anything that fit this budget. =p
Hey mondrian,
I've actually seen that S$1.15M unit and made an offer a while ago at S$1M, but the agent told me the offer was "offensive" and never called me back so that was that.
I'm not sure if there are any smaller units at Euro-Asia, as I only took a look at the penthouse. The other penthouse units are not wheelchair friendly as they have steps leading to the elevator.
Sorry I couldn't be more helpful :(
Hmm, OK, I'll need to double check then. Do you recall the size of his/her unit?
just confirmed with him...
1399sf
seems small for a 4BR though... but he confirm it is 4BR lah..
Hey mondrian,
I've actually seen that S$1.15M unit and made an offer a while ago at S$1M, but the agent told me the offer was "offensive" and never called me back so that was that.
I'm not sure if there are any smaller units at Euro-Asia, as I only took a look at the penthouse. The other penthouse units are not wheelchair friendly as they have steps leading to the elevator.
Sorry I couldn't be more helpful :(
THen you never offer him your most "vulgar" offer? :p..
but looks like the agent got lotsa enquiries to be able to do that to you
new2mondrian
25-05-09, 17:39
Hi Hungrypillow,
Thanks for the reply. It's alright. My in-law isn't in any urgent need of a home. He has his own HDB flat in Holland right now. It's just that he's getting on years, so moving really near us makes a lot more sense. But since my mother in law passed on years ago, I just need a studio unit that can accomodate 1 pax. So if Frasers launch the 4xxsqft unit at Woodleigh Close at $7xxpsf, it could potentially work out to be $3xxk and I will seriously consider that, 99-year nonethess. But a studio unit there really is a poor investment and hardly any resale value. Nonetheless, we are looking for it for self-stay purposes, so that's another matter.
Hey, out of my kaypoh-ness, since I stay currently right next to Intero as u know, I noticed that out of the 4 penthouse units, 3 have been occupied for really quite some time. The only penthse unit that is left vacant till now is the one facing Woodsville 28. That unit not too bad, despite all the brickbats about Intero's finishings/quality. It is facing McPherson, no noon sun, and u get more privacy cos it's not facing my apt block. Just 2 cents worth. I know the pain of house-hunting. So hope this helps.
Hey mondrian,
I've actually seen that S$1.15M unit and made an offer a while ago at S$1M, but the agent told me the offer was "offensive" and never called me back so that was that.
I'm not sure if there are any smaller units at Euro-Asia, as I only took a look at the penthouse. The other penthouse units are not wheelchair friendly as they have steps leading to the elevator.
Sorry I couldn't be more helpful :(
Who are u offending with that offer? To owner or to him?
Please lah... tell him that part of the money that is coming out from ur purchase will go to him... so if it is offensive, then dun take the commission lor since he so offended....
If no sale then how to make money for him.. ??
If i am the agent, i will at least try mah... Try won't die right? Only maybe kena spit a bit from seller...but if successful can close deal and move on right??
HungryPillow
25-05-09, 22:34
THen you never offer him your most "vulgar" offer? :p..
but looks like the agent got lotsa enquiries to be able to do that to you
Who are u offending with that offer? To owner or to him?
Please lah... tell him that part of the money that is coming out from ur purchase will go to him... so if it is offensive, then dun take the commission lor since he so offended....
If no sale then how to make money for him.. ??
If i am the agent, i will at least try mah... Try won't die right? Only maybe kena spit a bit from seller...but if successful can close deal and move on right??
Well, my offer was about 2 months ago. Back then they were asking 1.29M. I asked 4-5 banks and the valuations all came back at 1M (OCBC even said 950K), so I thought I offer at valuation = 1M... seems pretty fair to me.
Agent called me back the next day and said the owner was offended, so I said I'M offended that she's offended, and I hung up. Now it's still for sale and asking only 1.15M, but I really can't be fked to deal with that agent/seller again, so nvm.
Hey, out of my kaypoh-ness, since I stay currently right next to Intero as u know, I noticed that out of the 4 penthouse units, 3 have been occupied for really quite some time. The only penthse unit that is left vacant till now is the one facing Woodsville 28. That unit not too bad, despite all the brickbats about Intero's finishings/quality. It is facing McPherson, no noon sun, and u get more privacy cos it's not facing my apt block. Just 2 cents worth. I know the pain of house-hunting. So hope this helps.
Thanks for the info, really appreciate it :) I did manage to take a look at that penthouse you are talking about, but I feel for my needs it's still a bit cramped. At this point I am thinking I may just buy a condo for my mom to stay in and buy HDB for myself and fiancee that is close to my mom's condo...
While I was having dinner my agent msged me.."Free to talk?"
So i called back after twenty minutes.. and he said..
"Bro, the developer is upping the price again by this weekend (the developer already up by 20K last weekend) , if you want pls offer quickly before this weekend.."
Thats a price increase of at least 30-40 k within 2 weeks... I'm stunned..
Told him I will discuss with my wife and get back to him...but I know chasing prices are against my better judgment...
What do you folks reckon? should I or should I not?
While I was having dinner my agent msged me.."Free to talk?"
So i called back after twenty minutes.. and he said..
"Bro, the developer is upping the price again by this weekend (the developer already up by 20K last weekend) , if you want pls offer quickly before this weekend.."
Thats a price increase of at least 30-40 k within 2 weeks... I'm stunned..
Told him I will discuss with my wife and get back to him...but I know chasing prices are against my better judgment...
What do you folks reckon? should I or should I not?
The question is that can you afford to miss the boat and can you afford the current price? Let's assume the following probability:
1. Price keep creeping up in V-shape. You may never see ppi at 140 in your life time again, 30%
2. Another damn serious blackswan event happen, price go down to what u want (but HDB resale price may also plunge) say 15% chance
3. L or U-shape, price stabilizes but still out of your dream price for 2 years and then cheong, 55%
Price now confirmed not peak .. still long way to go.
Regulators
26-05-09, 00:09
bloody sales tactics dnt fall 4 it. Buy based on ur own research nt wat the agent says. I hv agents trying to hardsell lucida and many other d11 n 12 proj to me last year at hi psf with same tactic n there are still lots of available units for sme of these dev ths yr.
While I was having dinner my agent msged me.."Free to talk?"
So i called back after twenty minutes.. and he said..
"Bro, the developer is upping the price again by this weekend (the developer already up by 20K last weekend) , if you want pls offer quickly before this weekend.."
Thats a price increase of at least 30-40 k within 2 weeks... I'm stunned..
Told him I will discuss with my wife and get back to him...but I know chasing prices are against my better judgment...
What do you folks reckon? should I or should I not?
What do you folks reckon? should I or should I not?
Personally i wouldn't be bothered about how the general market moves or chases up prices.
I would treat property purchase like a business transaction, maciam i am a fund manager ;)
Does it pass my kopi/smoke environmental test (can i live in such a place and it's environment?)
Has it dropped by at least 40% off peak? Is is close to 2005/2006 prices (i'm being generous here)?
Am i paying more than the usual 10-15% premium for a new condo vs surrounding development?
Is the PE ratio more than 20x? (i calculate it as mortgage payment pm vs rental income pm)
Is there any substantial upside for the locality from external/govt infrastructure devt and other forces - so that i can have virtually assured capital gains?No one can or should teach you what to do. You've already done your research, and probably have a gut feel on what to do. Don't seek confirmation in forums - no one's an expert here and you might lose focus.
You know the adage: Buy when there's seller blood in the streets, sell when everyone's buying
Is the PE ratio more than 20x? (i calculate it as mortgage payment pm vs rental income pm)
This does not make sense to me. Are you saying if you pay 3k per month for mortgage and your rental income is 3k per month, then PE ratio is at 1, then it is good ?! Do you assume you take a 80% bank loan but for how long?
And expecting 2005 price is not generous, it is unfair/cruel for those who took risk at 2005 with the subsequent great GDP expansion at 2006/07/08. Anyway, it may not be possible anymore.
Cost of property consists of:
1. Land cost - land sold prior to 2005/06 does not price in all the new MRT lines and 2008 Master Plan, 4th uni blah blah ... going forward, do you think government will sell land at the same level as in 2003/04/05 ??
2. Construction cost - oil price was below 40USD from 2002-2006, do you expect oil price to go below 40USD in the coming years? Basically basic construction material cost is indirectly affected by oil price. Do remember China/India are competing for the commodities used in construction.
3. Develeper profit margin - need not explain
And mass/mid-end condo price also affected by HDB resale price, affordability improves when it is relatively higher, if you check May transaction price, it is still creeping up even in Punggol!!!
So, is it realistic to expect 2005/06 prices?
This does not make sense to me. Are you saying if you pay 3k per month for mortgage and your rental income is 3k per month, then PE ratio is at 1, then it is good ?! Do you assume you take a 80% bank loan but for how long?
And expecting 2005 price is not generous, it is unfair/cruel for those who took risk at 2005 with the subsequent great GDP expansion at 2006/07/08. Anyway, it may not be possible anymore.
Sorry, i meant at current top rental rate how many years does it take to fully pay off the loan.
Sorry, i meant at current top rental rate how many years does it take to fully pay off the loan.
Hmm ... in that case, your PE is a moving target as rental rate and interest rate are not constant. Ok, assume they average out, so you are saying if I borrow 80% for 20 years with monthly payment of 2.7k and if I rent out 3k, (- property tax blah, maintenance), so the PE is at 20 ?
Thanks for your advice folks..
This morning i raised the issue to my wife..the moment she heard it... her face starts flushing red, eyeballs popped out and rolled everywhere...
Being the "true" singaporean man who loves my wife.. i immediately retorted with conviction.."Dear i gotta go toilet, got stomachache.."
So while on the way to the loo, deftly i picked up my handphone, called the agent while in the loo and said..
"Sorry dude, after lenghty discussion with the missus in this regard, we decided in unanimously we're going to let this go..Thanks for your help again.."
On the part of the agent, I have nothing against him, he is just doing his job ...and trying to make ends meet. Its only up to potential buyers if they wanna fall into this charade...
To gfoo, regulators, jitkiat and who else i've not mentioned.. thanks again for your kind advice... but yeah... I believe the decision was made this morning in the true Singaporean way....
This morning i raised the issue to my wife..the moment she heard it... her face starts flushing red, eyeballs popped out and rolled everywhere...
lol my wife does this too. That's why i got really worried when she went for lasik a couple of years back. We don't pay the maid enuff to clean up cornea juice after us. :doh:
This does not make sense to me. Are you saying if you pay 3k per month for mortgage and your rental income is 3k per month, then PE ratio is at 1, then it is good ?! Do you assume you take a 80% bank loan but for how long?
And expecting 2005 price is not generous, it is unfair/cruel for those who took risk at 2005 with the subsequent great GDP expansion at 2006/07/08. Anyway, it may not be possible anymore.
The phase in bold don't make sense. There is no such things in the business world.
In any case, to ask for exorbitant price is a seller entitlement but to ask for any rock-bottom price is a buyer privilege. Thats what a free market is for, comparable to counters bidding/asking price.
The phase in bold don't make sense. There is no such things in the business world.
In any case, to ask for exorbitant price is a seller entitlement but to ask for any rock-bottom price is a buyer privilege. Thats what a free market is for, comparable to counters bidding/asking price.
Mr apple3, do u always need to be so logical :) ?
Mr apple3, do u always need to be so logical :) ?
Nah.. I could also be sarcastic, sadistic and abusive if you prefer and on the menu as the "Catch of the Day". :p
Cost of property consists of:
1. Land cost - land sold prior to 2005/06 does not price in all the new MRT lines and 2008 Master Plan, 4th uni blah blah ... going forward, do you think government will sell land at the same level as in 2003/04/05 ??
2. Construction cost - oil price was below 40USD from 2002-2006, do you expect oil price to go below 40USD in the coming years? Basically basic construction material cost is indirectly affected by oil price. Do remember China/India are competing for the commodities used in construction.
3. Develeper profit margin - need not explain
And mass/mid-end condo price also affected by HDB resale price, affordability improves when it is relatively higher, if you check May transaction price, it is still creeping up even in Punggol!!!
So, is it realistic to expect 2005/06 prices?
While its true there are many positive developments since 2005/2006, pls also note that due to the en-bloc craze recently, many developers churn out 3x the units compared to the old developments. And this is on top of additional new supply from govt land sales. Just think, in the mid-term, are we going to see an explosion/ exodus of people coming to Singapore to take up this excess supply? Or is it going to be instead a reduction in people or stable population? Even if population is stable, we will still see 3x additional supply of condos compared to pre-2005 days.
Yes, I hear many bulls here say, dun worry, if rental low, just dun rent lor, investors are rich enough to rather keep the units empty. This is really bullcrap to me. There will be marginal investors out there who need to rely on rentals to cover their loans or need to sell at distress prices. There will also be global investors who find that properties in other cities like London, Hong Kong etc more attractive than Singapore. I recently viewed a unit at Pandan Valley and the owner is desperate to close the deal at $674 psf for a 1335 sqf unit. Reason being they find London properties much more attractive than Singapore.
For people who really need a roof, I suggest renting instead. There are so many to choose from in prime districts. For investors, no need to rush in too. Especially with the recent sudden increase in asking prices of sellers. Prices just hasnt dropped low enough and if buying it just for capital appreciation in the mid-term and keeping it empty, blue chip shares would be a better bet, with dividends to boot.
And the costs of construction will not be increasing much. Have you forgotten that we are now in the middle of a recession? The massive spike in prices pre-lehman days were due to speculators driving up prices + Beijing Olympics but those days are over dude. Everyone now is trying to avoid deflation. Yeah, prices may not be as low, but I wouldnt expect it to shoot through the roof either. So, pls do not buy into developers smokescreen that costs of construction are going up. I say, then maybe you have to reduce others admin costs if developers still want to mantain margins.
And expecting 2005 price is not generous, it is unfair/cruel for those who took risk at 2005 with the subsequent great GDP expansion at 2006/07/08. Anyway, it may not be possible anymore.
Hahaha, since when do we need to be fair in our property dealings? When I was making profits from my properties, never have I thought `oh, I think I have exceeded my ROI, I will pass on some of my extra ROI to the buyer by reducing my asking price.' Similarly, when I was renting out my D10 3 bedroom apt from 2002-2005 at $1500-1800 p/m, I didnt ask the tenant to be fair to me.
Jitkiat, you may have been a kind soul and gullible enough to believe developer's arguments and bought a condo recently, but please do not ask others to join you on your bandwagon. While I also hope property prices will increase to 2007 levels so I can sell my 2 investment properties, I dont see it coming anytime soon. Meanwhile, I just rent them out for a return of 6% Net and pass it on to my 2 sons when they reach 21.
proud owner
27-05-09, 09:35
Hahaha, since when do we need to be fair in our property dealings? When I was making profits from my properties, never have I thought `oh, I think I have exceeded my ROI, I will pass on some of my extra ROI to the buyer by reducing my asking price.' Similarly, when I was renting out my D10 3 bedroom apt from 2002-2005 at $1500-1800 p/m, I didnt ask the tenant to be fair to me.
Jitkiat, you may have been a kind soul and gullible enough to believe developer's arguments and bought a condo recently, but please do not ask others to join you on your bandwagon. While I also hope property prices will increase to 2007 levels so I can sell my 2 investment properties, I dont see it coming anytime soon. Meanwhile, I just rent them out for a return of 6% Net and pass it on to my 2 sons when they reach 21.
thats the beauty of a Freehold ... the value stays pretty well ... till the reach 21 ..
in general , but true to leasehold
While I was having dinner my agent msged me.."Free to talk?"
So i called back after twenty minutes.. and he said..
"Bro, the developer is upping the price again by this weekend (the developer already up by 20K last weekend) , if you want pls offer quickly before this weekend.."
Thats a price increase of at least 30-40 k within 2 weeks... I'm stunned..
Told him I will discuss with my wife and get back to him...but I know chasing prices are against my better judgment...
What do you folks reckon? should I or should I not?
I received 2 sms today from 2 different agents telling me if I dun buy now the price will up again soon. Ask me to faster commit too!
by the way, the seller is asking prices that is even higher than 2008 prices, I think it is not fair.
I received 2 sms today from 2 different agents telling me if I dun buy now the price will up again soon. Ask me to faster commit too!
by the way, the seller is asking prices that is even higher than 2008 prices, I think it is not fair.
Life is not about fairness.. its up to you if u wanna bite, no one can tell u otherwise..
Price is just dollars and cents, but if it doesn't match with what you perceive as the dollar value you're paying..then dont...:)
But if you do, then go ahead...
Good luck with your search ...
ya ya...I did not expect any fairness lah...but this jitkiat was mentioning abt fairness you see so trying to tell him there are alot of unfair cases around.
ya ya...I did not expect any fairness lah...but this jitkiat was mentioning abt fairness you see so trying to tell him there are alot of unfair cases around.
Looks like my "fairness" is taken way out of context. I was replying to someone's suggestion that the property price should go back to 2005/06 level. My counter argument was that GDP expanded on average of 6% from 2004-2008 and it is going to contract only -6 to -9% this year which just wipes out our growth in year 2008. Assuming property market has a high correlation with GDP growth, then property price should be at year 2007 level right now.
proud owner
27-05-09, 12:14
I received 2 sms today from 2 different agents telling me if I dun buy now the price will up again soon. Ask me to faster commit too!
by the way, the seller is asking prices that is even higher than 2008 prices, I think it is not fair.
by the way the agent sms you for which project ? what size ? what psf pls ?
by the way the agent sms you for which project ? what size ? what psf pls ?
carabelle, 2BR/3BR, 780psf~800psf
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ya ya...I did not expect any fairness lah...but this jitkiat was mentioning abt fairness you see so trying to tell him there are alot of unfair cases around.
hehe.. thats funny...didn't realise there was a moving target and u've set your homing device on it....
thats the beauty of a Freehold ... the value stays pretty well ... till the reach 21 ..
in general , but true to leasehold
I was still thinking where is Mr Proud and if he is reading HP65 comments. (Which is fairly good)
And Pooh!!! Here come Mr Standby-FH Guru!
Hey Pal, hows your day? :p
I don't think any Calrose units have 4 bedrooms, it's all 3 or below from what I saw in the floorplans.
http://www.singaporeexpats.com/housing-in-singapore/singapore-property/floor-plan-THE-CALROSE.htm
I am not sure if the above link will be clickable or not. If you go to
website of singaporeexpats.com, and search for CalRose, you will be able
to find it.
Then you just click "Floor plan" icon, and check those large ones
Type PC1/PC2/PC2
2756 sq ft -2900 sqft 4 bedroom.
new2mondrian
28-05-09, 09:22
For people who really need a roof, I suggest renting instead. There are so many to choose from in prime districts. For investors, no need to rush in too. Especially with the recent sudden increase in asking prices of sellers. Prices just hasnt dropped low enough and if buying it just for capital appreciation in the mid-term and keeping it empty, blue chip shares would be a better bet, with dividends to boot.
And the costs of construction will not be increasing much. Have you forgotten that we are now in the middle of a recession? The massive spike in prices pre-lehman days were due to speculators driving up prices + Beijing Olympics but those days are over dude. Everyone now is trying to avoid deflation. Yeah, prices may not be as low, but I wouldnt expect it to shoot through the roof either. So, pls do not buy into developers smokescreen that costs of construction are going up. I say, then maybe you have to reduce others admin costs if developers still want to mantain margins.
Absolutely right. That's why we have been renting for more than a year now, though all our friends thought us "nuts" to be paying so much in rental ($2k plus) for a brand new 3-bedder unit. But if one think hard about this, there are so many blue-chips/infrastructural trusts (eg CitySprings) out there right now that give a dividend yield of 12-15% per annum. At such rate of returns, I really cannot see any compelling case for sinking $1M into a property, when the opportunity cost for that $1M is $120k-$150k in dividend income (post-tax, plus no property related charges like stamp duty/maintenance/property tax) on a yearly basis. When one talks about capital appreciation in a property, it is no different from capital appreciation in blue-chips and commodities portfolio. If property market appreciates 30%, the stock market would probably have appreciated by the same amount too.
new2mondrian
28-05-09, 09:32
Thanks for the info, really appreciate it :) I did manage to take a look at that penthouse you are talking about, but I feel for my needs it's still a bit cramped. At this point I am thinking I may just buy a condo for my mom to stay in and buy HDB for myself and fiancee that is close to my mom's condo...
Actually u can look at all the HDB Maisonettes along Towner Road. Not too far from Boon Keng, definitely within 15mins drive from Novena, and 4 bedrooms (1 study on the 1st floor, 3 bedrooms upstairs). It's just that it might be below 1800sqft. But no wasted spaces like bay windows and planter boxes. So the livable space may work out to be the same, and definitely half of your $1.2M budget. =)
From a rental yield perspective, HDB still provides the highest yield. So if u stay in one for 5 years, after which u can still rent it out comfortably should u wish to move into private.
HungryPillow
28-05-09, 11:31
Actually u can look at all the HDB Maisonettes along Towner Road. Not too far from Boon Keng, definitely within 15mins drive from Novena, and 4 bedrooms (1 study on the 1st floor, 3 bedrooms upstairs). It's just that it might be below 1800sqft. But no wasted spaces like bay windows and planter boxes. So the livable space may work out to be the same, and definitely half of your $1.2M budget. =)
From a rental yield perspective, HDB still provides the highest yield. So if u stay in one for 5 years, after which u can still rent it out comfortably should u wish to move into private.
Thanks for the suggestion, I will definitely check it out.
I think the plan now is to look for a 3-bedder private condo and a HDB estate within stones throw away. My colleagues suggested to check out the Bishan area (I think Shun Fu or Shun Foo or something like that?) They suggested Marymount View, Boonview, and Sin Ming Plaza. Hopefully the pricing will fit my budget. I was thinking about 700-800k for my mom and 300-400k for myself and fiancee. I do like the Bishan area, but doesn't seem to be many freehold apartments there...
If I can find the units it may end up working out better this way since I won't have to be sandwiched between a grumpy mom and a grumpy wife 24/7 :D
proud owner
28-05-09, 11:33
I was still thinking where is Mr Proud and if he is reading HP65 comments. (Which is fairly good)
And Pooh!!! Here come Mr Standby-FH Guru!
Hey Pal, hows your day? :p
solli ah, my england not so powderful
someone said he could buy leasehold and keep it for his 2 sons when they turn 21 ..
i just thot after 21 yrs ..what will its value be ? so as good as a 21 yr old FH ??
solli ah, my england not so powderful
someone said he could buy leasehold and keep it for his 2 sons when they turn 21 ..
i just thot after 21 yrs ..what will its value be ? so as good as a 21 yr old FH ??
May be you should change your nickname to "FH_proudowner" instead :D
proud owner
28-05-09, 13:24
May be you should change your nickname to "FH_proudowner" instead :D
hahah thanks for the suggestion ...
but if i plan to leave property to my children .. i wont buy LH lor .. put money on LH for 15-20 yrs ..god knows what the value will be like by then .. meanwhile i could have used the money on other products that can generate better income ..
i know alot of people will dispute my idea .. just a personal preference .. NO LEASEHOLD for me ... in fact i prefer FH landed ..esp for singapore ..
hahah thanks for the suggestion ...
but if i plan to leave property to my children .. i wont buy LH lor .. put money on LH for 15-20 yrs ..god knows what the value will be like by then .. meanwhile i could have used the money on other products that can generate better income ..
i know alot of people will dispute my idea .. just a personal preference .. NO LEASEHOLD for me ... in fact i prefer FH landed ..esp for singapore ..
No lah ... for one I support u :D coz I'll also try to avoid LH. Hence, u got at least one supporter lah ....
Somehow (call me traditional or old-fashioned), I feel that FH makes more sense because if I like the place & stay there for a couple of decades, then later someone sees my place oso like it then wanna buy from me, I guess FH will mean it's easier for tt fella to get a loan from bank rite? :)
proud owner
28-05-09, 14:57
No lah ... for one I support u :D coz I'll also try to avoid LH. Hence, u got at least one supporter lah ....
Somehow (call me traditional or old-fashioned), I feel that FH makes more sense because if I like the place & stay there for a couple of decades, then later someone sees my place oso like it then wanna buy from me, I guess FH will mean it's easier for tt fella to get a loan from bank rite? :)
yes ...
also if one day we become multimillionaires ..and want to donate some land ... to build another ..say "Proud Owner Junior College" ... at least its a FH land right ??
imagine Hwa Chong Jnr College was on a 99yr lease land ? once its lease expires and had to move ..walau Bkt timah no more prime lah ..
solli ah, my england not so powderful
someone said he could buy leasehold and keep it for his 2 sons when they turn 21 ..
i just thot after 21 yrs ..what will its value be ? so as good as a 21 yr old FH ??
I'm also a supporter of FH/999LH properties. Only 99LH I would consider are D1, Sentosa, Keppel Bay area properties.
proud owner
28-05-09, 16:34
I'm also a supporter of FH/999LH properties. Only 99LH I would consider are D1, Sentosa, Keppel Bay area properties.
thank you so now we have 3 FH/999yr supporters ...
by the way ... some rumors going around about the Lim family pertaining to Genting Intl ...
you think that will affect Reflections ??
What happens to LH 99 projects that are near their 99 year mark?
Do we lose the apartment entirely?
thank you so now we have 3 FH/999yr supporters ...
by the way ... some rumors going around about the Lim family pertaining to Genting Intl ...
you think that will affect Reflections ??
You're welcome. No idea how it will affect Reflections. The only thing i know that is affected by the Lim family selling their stakes is to cause GTGS to plunge 20% overnight. At the same time, I'm not sure if its related, but my investment in KPLD shares yielded a nice capital profit, excluding the rights given.
There are some stocks I do not buy: Casino, Tobacco and medical related. Don't feel good if I made money from the rise of such counters.
You're welcome. No idea how it will affect Reflections. The only thing i know that is affected by the Lim family selling their stakes is to cause GTGS to plunge 20% overnight. At the same time, I'm not sure if its related, but my investment in KPLD shares yielded a nice capital profit, excluding the rights given.
There are some stocks I do not buy: Casino, Tobacco and medical related. Don't feel good if I made money from the rise of such counters.
I salute you. You must be quite a religious person. Just a small correction to GTGS bull run in the last few months ... from 30+ cents to 90+ cents ... and correct back to 70cent
I salute you. You must be quite a religious person. Just a small correction to GTGS bull run in the last few months ... from 30+ cents to 90+ cents ... and correct back to 70cent
No need to salute, just dun believe in vices or wish for any medical crisis to happen.
Actually my point was really about there are other investments out there besides properties that can yield quite good returns. Incidentally, I also bought Cityspring 2 months back due to its attractive dividend yield (13.5% yield). Not expecting any capital appreciation but these 2 days it has already given me a capital gain of 26%. I'm now getting curious if somebody is driving up the px in preparation for rights/ warrants issue.
I'm just glad I loaded myself with properties counters like AG, CAPL & CIT after I missed out on the banking bull run recently. Time to lock-in some of the gains, suspect correction coming.
Anyway, better not OT, too much equities talk.
No need to salute, just dun believe in vices or wish for any medical crisis to happen.
Actually my point was really about there are other investments out there besides properties that can yield quite good returns. Incidentally, I also bought Cityspring 2 months back due to its attractive dividend yield (13.5% yield). Not expecting any capital appreciation but these 2 days it has already given me a capital gain of 26%. I'm now getting curious if somebody is driving up the px in preparation for rights/ warrants issue.
I'm just glad I loaded myself with properties counters like AG, CAPL & CIT after I missed out on the banking bull run recently. Time to lock-in some of the gains, suspect correction coming.
Anyway, better not OT, too much equities talk.
I agree. As a professional investor, diversification into different asset classes is important. However, stock market, although has lower transaction cost and higher liquidity, is not for the faint-hearted. It requires much more risk management and discipline on loss cutting. Buying the wrong property at the wrong time, you can still hold & stay, buying the wrong stock like China Aviation Oil, you can lose 90% overnight :banghead:
solli ah, my england not so powderful
someone said he could buy leasehold and keep it for his 2 sons when they turn 21 ..
i just thot after 21 yrs ..what will its value be ? so as good as a 21 yr old FH ??
Check SLA LH vs FH depreciation chart..
hahahha :p
I agree. As a professional investor, diversification into different asset classes is important. However, stock market, although has lower transaction cost and higher liquidity, is not for the faint-hearted. It requires much more risk management and discipline on loss cutting. Buying the wrong property at the wrong time, you can still hold & stay, buying the wrong stock like China Aviation Oil, you can lose 90% overnight :banghead:
Totally agree on this. And to supplement, on both side, buying the right stock like Ford, you can win 90% overnight.:)
crease12345
29-05-09, 20:37
I agree. As a professional investor, diversification into different asset classes is important. However, stock market, although has lower transaction cost and higher liquidity, is not for the faint-hearted. It requires much more risk management and discipline on loss cutting. Buying the wrong property at the wrong time, you can still hold & stay, buying the wrong stock like China Aviation Oil, you can lose 90% overnight :banghead:
As a professional investor myself, what you say is misleading. Losing 90% overnight on a stock is, although possible, unlikely. The current financial and credit crisis is really unprecedented.
Also, if your portfolio is truly diversified, individual stock risks should not bother you much.
new2mondrian
03-06-09, 11:48
As a professional investor myself, what you say is misleading. Losing 90% overnight on a stock is, although possible, unlikely. The current financial and credit crisis is really unprecedented.
Also, if your portfolio is truly diversified, individual stock risks should not bother you much.
And to add, if blue chips like UOB, DBS, SPH, Singtel, SGX lose 90% overnight, probably the property market won't be spared by the same amt either. :)
new2mondrian
03-06-09, 12:02
Actually this forum is a wonderful source of information, opinion and advice. And I just needed some right now. The thing is, my father-in-law is getting on years and it is definitely preferable that he stays near us. Hence he's been thinking about getting a cheap HDB unit near our place, or a studio unit such that we are staying near, but not under the same roof (he values his and our privacy very much himself and does not believe in staying under the same roof).
Given the Woodleigh Close launch won't come cheap, or at least the indicative pricing of their studios do not come cheap, it might just be a better option that we move down to Holland Drive area to stay. Does it make sense to pay $550-$700K for a 4/5 room HDB flat around Holland area, and rent out our existing unit at Parc Mondrian for some side income; or should we simply sell our unit at Parc Mondrian and buy a $1.2M 3-bedder unit around Holland area?
Which is a better option? Any advice/opinion is welcome. :)
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