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lyn
09-06-09, 13:29
I need help. I saw some places that I like but bank valuation is about 50 - 80k less than valuation. Agents are given reason such as bank over conservation in their valuation. In the past when market is good bank give higher valuation, now they give lower, hence owner asking lower too....

give an example. mirage tower asking last time was at 1100 psf and bank was able to give matching valuation...now asking about 1000 psf but bank giving say 850 psf.... If I have bought in the past I would have been able to get higher loan....now I get lower loan but cheaper price.... and agent keep saying that if I wait in a few months, i can get higher loan but then prices would have rise....

I always have the opinion that units never transact above bank valuation but nowadays bank seems to give low valuation...any expert opinion?

firec
09-06-09, 14:25
I'm not an expert but it could be due to sellers asking for an unrealistic high price (trying their luck) due to the recent stock market euphoria.

Wait for stock market to quiet down and make a counter offer based on bank valuation.

The general bearish views articulated elsewhere in this forum is that there is absolutely no hurry to buy now.

But to balance your perspective, do yourself a favour and read through both bullish and bearish posts here... they are all very interesting. :)



I need help. I saw some places that I like but bank valuation is about 50 - 80k less than valuation. Agents are given reason such as bank over conservation in their valuation. In the past when market is good bank give higher valuation, now they give lower, hence owner asking lower too....

give an example. mirage tower asking last time was at 1100 psf and bank was able to give matching valuation...now asking about 1000 psf but bank giving say 850 psf.... If I have bought in the past I would have been able to get higher loan....now I get lower loan but cheaper price.... and agent keep saying that if I wait in a few months, i can get higher loan but then prices would have rise....

I always have the opinion that units never transact above bank valuation but nowadays bank seems to give low valuation...any expert opinion?

august
09-06-09, 14:27
I need help. I saw some places that I like but bank valuation is about 50 - 80k less than valuation. Agents are given reason such as bank over conservation in their valuation. In the past when market is good bank give higher valuation, now they give lower, hence owner asking lower too....

give an example. mirage tower asking last time was at 1100 psf and bank was able to give matching valuation...now asking about 1000 psf but bank giving say 850 psf.... If I have bought in the past I would have been able to get higher loan....now I get lower loan but cheaper price.... and agent keep saying that if I wait in a few months, i can get higher loan but then prices would have rise....

I always have the opinion that units never transact above bank valuation but nowadays bank seems to give low valuation...any expert opinion?
always take wat agents say with big pinch of salt ~

jc
09-06-09, 14:58
Your situation is not unique. Almost most property now owners are aking above bank valuation. I doubt there are many units asking at valuation px. My guess is bank valuation will catch up soon, when the recently transacted higher prices caveat are lodged. But again, by then, i am not sure whether owners will be asking even higher prices.

But some banks do match up when u show them your OTP, depending on your financial standing.

Stock mkt direction can change very fast within days or even within a day. But Property being less liquid, therefore prices does not change direction as fast as stock mkt. It takes a while before any trend is reversed. Good luck :)

Property_Owner
09-06-09, 15:35
2007, Sail studio bank match 3200psf. People buy like crazy cause bank match mah.
2009, Sail studio bank match less then 2000psf. But you can buy slightly above 2000psf.

Think about it. What are those people that bought in 2007 thinking now. :banghead:

lyn
09-06-09, 16:24
Hi property owner, that's what agents saying....that now can buy much cheaper cos valuation lower and they also say that if i wait, valuation will catch up but that means I'll pay more.... so not sure if I should buy now or wait...
sign. life is full of making decisions....some easy and some really tough and affects a lifetime.



2007, Sail studio bank match 3200psf. People buy like crazy cause bank match mah.
2009, Sail studio bank match less then 2000psf. But you can buy slightly above 2000psf.

Think about it. What are those people that bought in 2007 thinking now. :banghead:

Property_Owner
09-06-09, 16:52
Hi property owner, that's what agents saying....that now can buy much cheaper cos valuation lower and they also say that if i wait, valuation will catch up but that means I'll pay more.... so not sure if I should buy now or wait...
sign. life is full of making decisions....some easy and some really tough and affects a lifetime.

Do you know why when you buy sub sale, bank don't match but if you go for new launch, they match! :D

Property_Owner
09-06-09, 16:59
It's always much much harder to time property compare to share. All we see is caveats lodged. By the time you know the bottom or peak. One word for buyers or sellers. You miss the boat. :) I have a friend, In 2007, was offered a good price, but it's 10/20psf away. He want to hit 3000psf, so he told the agent off. He sold his unit in Feb 09. 13xxpsf.

Acer
09-06-09, 17:04
Hi property owner, that's what agents saying....that now can buy much cheaper cos valuation lower and they also say that if i wait, valuation will catch up but that means I'll pay more.... so not sure if I should buy now or wait...
sign. life is full of making decisions....some easy and some really tough and affects a lifetime.


Hi Lyn ,

U interest in Mirage tower?
Which floor may I know?

wreckwrx
09-06-09, 17:08
Hi property owner, that's what agents saying....that now can buy much cheaper cos valuation lower and they also say that if i wait, valuation will catch up but that means I'll pay more.... so not sure if I should buy now or wait...
sign. life is full of making decisions....some easy and some really tough and affects a lifetime.

Pure sales talk crap... trying to pressure u into comitting....

Valuation is at 850psf... Seller is asking for 1000psf... So you got to ask yourself what is so compeling about that particular property that warrants you to fork out the additional 150psf in CASH (assuming worst case scenario of Bank is not willing to match)....

pweesng
09-06-09, 17:12
Do you want to test if it is the agent or the owner who is holding up?

Very easy, pen a letter and attached it with a check. Then get the agent to present it to the owner. Ask the owner to sign and acknowledge. See if it is the agent being greedy, or the owner is holding out...

anyway, buy house is as such... as seller, if i am not a firesale, i am free to ask for whatever price i want.. above or below the valuation. Buyers can decide if they want to pay or walk away.

Anyway, trading above valuation is nothing new.



I need help. I saw some places that I like but bank valuation is about 50 - 80k less than valuation. Agents are given reason such as bank over conservation in their valuation. In the past when market is good bank give higher valuation, now they give lower, hence owner asking lower too....

give an example. mirage tower asking last time was at 1100 psf and bank was able to give matching valuation...now asking about 1000 psf but bank giving say 850 psf.... If I have bought in the past I would have been able to get higher loan....now I get lower loan but cheaper price.... and agent keep saying that if I wait in a few months, i can get higher loan but then prices would have rise....

I always have the opinion that units never transact above bank valuation but nowadays bank seems to give low valuation...any expert opinion?

lyn
09-06-09, 17:35
No, I am not keen on mirage tower. This was an example agent quoted cos bank valued in apr @ 800 only....

with stock market rising, @ valuation will be hard cos bank is not yet catching up.

anyway at this time if can find units @ valuation do you think it's a good deal, considering the market has gone up and bank is conservative? Any good advice?

Another question, ever property sold way below valuation say for a 1.2 mil house, sell @ 1mil? sorry for silly question if some of you think so....but my point is why dun the seller ask for valuation?


Hi Lyn ,

U interest in Mirage tower?
Which floor may I know?

blackswan
09-06-09, 17:53
As mention in the posting, if you have a roof over your head at the current moment & there isn't any urgent compelling reason to buy now, then why the hurry?

Its a fact that rental yield is low and with the impending supply, doesn't look like its going to head up anytime. Me not a property investor, but if property prices are not analyse using rental yield, then I dun know how are the banks evaluating it (maybe some bro & sis can kindly enlighten).

As for demand, its true that there are lots of people rushing to grap their dream property and heading for viewing with cheque in hand, however, also mention in the post, does it mean that people do, we must follow?

Really :2cents: :2cents: worth only.

pweesng
09-06-09, 17:56
No, I am not keen on mirage tower. This was an example agent quoted cos bank valued in apr @ 800 only....

with stock market rising, @ valuation will be hard cos bank is not yet catching up.

anyway at this time if can find units @ valuation do you think it's a good deal, considering the market has gone up and bank is conservative? Any good advice?

Another question, ever property sold way below valuation say for a 1.2 mil house, sell @ 1mil? sorry for silly question if some of you think so....but my point is why dun the seller ask for valuation?

It is all from a marketing point of view... when times are bad, i woudl ask for below valuation to make it seems more "worth it" for you.

When times are good, i try to ask for some value above valuation...

Premium and discounts... works the same way...

and... no.. it is not a silly question.

vin002
09-06-09, 17:58
Another question, ever property sold way below valuation say for a 1.2 mil house, sell @ 1mil? sorry for silly question if some of you think so....but my point is why dun the seller ask for valuation?

There are various reasons.

1) Seller wanted to sell at valuation but the agent not able to find any buyer to commit.
2) Seller desperate.
3) Never occur to the seller to ask for valuation and rely on agent recommendation.
etc.

pweesng
09-06-09, 18:05
As mention in the posting, if you have a roof over your head at the current moment & there isn't any urgent compelling reason to buy now, then why the hurry?

Its a fact that rental yield is low and with the impending supply, doesn't look like its going to head up anytime. Me not a property investor, but if property prices are not analyse using rental yield, then I dun know how are the banks evaluating it (maybe some bro & sis can kindly enlighten).

As for demand, its true that there are lots of people rushing to grap their dream property and heading for viewing with cheque in hand, however, also mention in the post, does it mean that people do, we must follow?

Really :2cents: :2cents: worth only.

Actually i beg to differ. Everyone has a different reason to buy or to hold. It does not means that as long as you have a roof over your head, therefore you don't have an urgency to buy.

Given that if subprime did not happen, a lot of the buyers that has gotten in the last 2 months may never even be able to afford a private property. You must also know that inflation are the most common reason for pricing one out of the property market.

Yield is the most common way of valuing commercial properties. However, for residential, yes, Yield can be part of the equation. But, it is also the potential of the site. What is the current GFA, what is the future GFA. What is the master plan from URA for the next 5 years...etc..etc...

These factors have some hold on the valuation, and that figure in the valuation also in turn affect the rental value and yield.

lyn
09-06-09, 18:39
Hi Blackswan,

I am currently staying with my parent and hope to get a place for own stay. I am in no hurry but my main concern is inflation which I believe will come and will come hard. Hence, I am looking for a place for stay and for capital gain. Not really from a yield perspective thou' it's a bonus to get good yield in the event that i rent it out. currently, i am looking more for own stay.

Hi pweesng,
to your post on GFA, how do you know if the area is already fully built up? can you advice? I am a property novice.
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firec
09-06-09, 19:18
I am currently staying with my parent and hope to get a place for own stay. I am in no hurry but my main concern is inflation which I believe will come and will come hard. Hence, I am looking for a place for stay and for capital gain. Not really from a yield perspective thou' it's a bonus to get good yield in the event that i rent it out. currently, i am looking more for own stay.

It's hard to predict if property in Singapore is still a good hedge against high inflation. We have not seen high inflation for a while now.

Don't forget that most of us will (need to) borrow money to finance the property purchase.

Should there be high inflation or even hyperinflation, interest rates may be raised to a level that may wipe out any gain in property prices. Hyperinflation is a whole different can of worms with scenarios that even great economists can't agree on.

That said, economists like Paul Krugman have said that hyperinflation is unlikely to happen and shouldn't be a great concern.

So, with low interest rates here and lots of cash-rich HDB upgraders, people with bullish sentiments will say NOW is the best time to buy a property!

teddybear
09-06-09, 20:03
No use lah. No reason for owner to sign and acknowledge unless he accepted the OTP and cheque. Also, the agent can sign and you are non the wiser because you have never seen the owner's signature anyway.


Do you want to test if it is the agent or the owner who is holding up?

Very easy, pen a letter and attached it with a check. Then get the agent to present it to the owner. Ask the owner to sign and acknowledge. See if it is the agent being greedy, or the owner is holding out...

anyway, buy house is as such... as seller, if i am not a firesale, i am free to ask for whatever price i want.. above or below the valuation. Buyers can decide if they want to pay or walk away.

Anyway, trading above valuation is nothing new.

dragonred
09-06-09, 20:05
Hi,

In the end, it all comes down to what the seller thinks is a fair price for the property. There's enough data from URA caveats and propertyguru type sites for sellers to make an informed judgement on a price they are comfortable paying.

This means that bank valuations (from the same people who got us the boom & the bust & keep revising forecasts) is never the final word on what the price can/should/will be.

Bank valuations are used to 1) figure out how much loan we can realistically secure, and 2) how much over/under our budget that is 3) negotiating point with the seller

So far, I haven't seen a single agent or a buyer who has a presented me with a written bank valuation (even on an email) for the property they have put on sale. It's always been the other way around when I have taken emails from my bankers to them(!). And then you will hear comments like ' valuations haven't caught up' or 'your bank is multinational, very conservative, not in touch with local sentiments(!!)'

The fact that so many people are now ready to sell clearly indicates that the sellers don't think the boom will last. And the fact that buyers are now rushing in to buy only reinforces this belief.

I don't see why I should top up on my bank valuation (if I agree with it to begin with). The boom's over. I have currently extended my lease at a 40% lower rental than last year, and more than happy to wait.

teddybear
09-06-09, 20:14
Private properties always sell below valuation unless there is something unique about the property that buyer die die must buy above valuation in order to snatch the property. While buying below valuation doesn't mean that you are buying cheap, buying above valuation simply means you are paying too much (simple as that). So, resist all the temptations by agents about valuation catch up etc. If the property is worth that much, the valuation will always be that much or even higher.


I need help. I saw some places that I like but bank valuation is about 50 - 80k less than valuation. Agents are given reason such as bank over conservation in their valuation. In the past when market is good bank give higher valuation, now they give lower, hence owner asking lower too....

give an example. mirage tower asking last time was at 1100 psf and bank was able to give matching valuation...now asking about 1000 psf but bank giving say 850 psf.... If I have bought in the past I would have been able to get higher loan....now I get lower loan but cheaper price.... and agent keep saying that if I wait in a few months, i can get higher loan but then prices would have rise....

I always have the opinion that units never transact above bank valuation but nowadays bank seems to give low valuation...any expert opinion?

Acer
09-06-09, 20:31
Hi Blackswan,

I am currently staying with my parent and hope to get a place for own stay. I am in no hurry but my main concern is inflation which I believe will come and will come hard. Hence, I am looking for a place for stay and for capital gain. Not really from a yield perspective thou' it's a bonus to get good yield in the event that i rent it out. currently, i am looking more for own stay.

Hi pweesng,
to your post on GFA, how do you know if the area is already fully built up? can you advice? I am a property novice.
vbmenu_register("postmenu_56580", true);

Hi Lyn ,

Just my 2cents of opinion.....
I believe u read last sun strait times on how you calculate rental yield

rental per month / purchase price x 12mths x 100% = rental yield

Let take an example....

You purchase Mill Point condo at zion road at 680k for 527sq ft with tenancy of 2.7k
so rental yield is 2700/680000 x 12 x 100% = 4.7%

If your monthly installment is 1.4k , that mean your profit will be 1.3k


On the other hand if u purchase a similar project ,newer , ard tat area at 780k. if you use the above fomular to calculate .you will find tat rental yield n profit is not attractive enough.
Of course newer project will fetch a better price if you sell.
Bigger loan , more at risk....


Im not agent

sun
09-06-09, 22:04
lyn, I thought people like to loan as least as possible to reduce the burden of installment. But why you want to loan that higher than bank valuation ? Loan the less the better right ? You can buy "lower"(I dont think so) price some more.

cool_rrk
09-06-09, 22:14
Valuation by valuers is generally based on:

1. Recent transactions of comparable ppty
2. Their view of the trend in ppty prices

Problem is that valuers badly screwed up in late 2008 when ppty prices were taking a steep drop. In many instances the ppty prices dropped during the period OTP to purchase completion and loans got revoked. Banks fired many valuers and blamed them for poor judgement. Valuers got overly conservative after that and reduced their assessed values to cater for the down trend in prices.

Which means that valuations became unrealistically low.

From what I know most transactions now are above valuation. It will be sometime before valuations rise to a more realistic level and then we will have people transacting at or slightly below valuation, as is usually the case.

This valuation discrepency presents a unique window for cash rich investors / buyers, as the cash above valuation can be prohibitive for most people. So it is sad but true that the normal Joe has to miss the opportunity to capitalize on this bull run until the bank is confident the market has recovered, and raises the valuations, and ofcourse he has to pay a lot more then.

firec
10-06-09, 00:00
This valuation discrepency presents a unique window for cash rich investors / buyers, as the cash above valuation can be prohibitive for most people. So it is sad but true that the normal Joe has to miss the opportunity to capitalize on this bull run until the bank is confident the market has recovered, and raises the valuations, and ofcourse he has to pay a lot more then.
The following is also possible:

This "bull run" is fueled mainly by HDB upgraders (refer to business times chart posted somewhere in this forum). But precisely because most HDB upgraders are "asset rich and cash poor", and the fact that banks aren't willing to lend enough to fund their condo dreams, the "bull run" will be short lived.

Just my :2cents:

lyn
10-06-09, 08:10
sun, i think u misunderstood. What i meant was why is bank valuation amount 50-80 k less than asking price. Are sellers overasking or valuers over conservative?? It has got nothing to do with loan of sort....

anyway at this market scenerio where interest rate is so low, i would go for high loan amount. use the liquid cash to invest and get more than bank loan rate of 1.5%.


lyn, I thought people like to loan as least as possible to reduce the burden of installment. But why you want to loan that higher than bank valuation ? Loan the less the better right ? You can buy "lower"(I dont think so) price some more.

vin002
10-06-09, 08:13
I need help. I saw some places that I like but bank valuation is about 50 - 80k less than valuation. Agents are given reason such as bank over conservation in their valuation. In the past when market is good bank give higher valuation, now they give lower, hence owner asking lower too....

give an example. mirage tower asking last time was at 1100 psf and bank was able to give matching valuation...now asking about 1000 psf but bank giving say 850 psf.... If I have bought in the past I would have been able to get higher loan....now I get lower loan but cheaper price.... and agent keep saying that if I wait in a few months, i can get higher loan but then prices would have rise....

I always have the opinion that units never transact above bank valuation but nowadays bank seems to give low valuation...any expert opinion?

I suggest that you approach a loan agent which has contact from many banks. Unless you can get a very good loan arrangment from a banker you know.

Get a tentative loan approval (70%, 80% or 90%) with the targeted few property that you have in mind. Once you have the unit number, get the bank/agent to do an immediate valuation. Yes, the valuation may be lower, but chances of the bank to match the valuation are still possible unless the asking price from seller is too drastic. Alternatively, to ask the seller to match or lower the asking price as the bank cannot match. If the seller is desperate, they may match otherwise, it is better to move on. The banks must have a good reason not to match (take note of the key word, "banks" not one but all).

vin002
10-06-09, 08:20
The following is also possible:

This "bull run" is fueled mainly by HDB upgraders (refer to business times chart posted somewhere in this forum). But precisely because most HDB upgraders are "asset rich and cash poor", and the fact that banks aren't willing to lend enough to fund their condo dreams, the "bull run" will be short lived.

Just my :2cents:

This statement is only true to the neighbour projects that are sold to HDB upgraders. You have to take note that certain projects in prime area are moving fast.

When I tell people to buy in Dec to Mar, people say that price will drop further. Now I tell people to choose carefully but can still buy, people tell me that the fundamentals are not there and the market will come down in later. Mark my words, unless there is another major unforeseen event happening, the end 2009 and coming 2010 will only be better. If not, it will also maintain current pricing by moving sideward rather than downwards.

pweesng
10-06-09, 10:11
Hi Blackswan,

Hi pweesng,
to your post on GFA, how do you know if the area is already fully built up? can you advice? I am a property novice.
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Hi Lyn,

Well it is very hard to get accurate info if you are not in the market. 10:1 or 9:1 etc..etc.. don't mean anything at all.

you can get the info from URA, or from the Agents, they usually will have the info handy.

a Rule of thumb. build ratio always increase as years goes by... because of improvement in the drainage system in the area, better traffic control...etc..etc... hence old developments are generally below the current build ratio. New Developements, in order to maximise profit, developer will usually exhaust 100% GFA. It will take a couple of decade for the build ratio to be increase to an extend where it would be meaningful for another developer to enbloc the project.

Second rule, projects with big carparks above the ground, usually are under built. Just to name a few, Clementi Park, Sommerville Park, etc..etc...

pweesng
10-06-09, 10:16
No use lah. No reason for owner to sign and acknowledge unless he accepted the OTP and cheque. Also, the agent can sign and you are non the wiser because you have never seen the owner's signature anyway.

It depends, there was once i made an offer. The agent signed and indicated that the owner rejected my offer.

A couple of months later, the unit was sold for less then the price i offered. i got in touch with the owner, we sue the agent.

anyway, it was settled out of court. Basically the agent had to pay the owner the difference in the selling price and my offered price.

i was given some compensation too, coz the selling price and the market price was a big margin.

So, think again, if one is an agent and decides to sign on it.

Anyways, there are ways to check if it is the owner or not. Telephone number, NRIC photocopy.. etc..etc...

what i want to establish is that the owner saw my offer and decide to reject, and not because the agent didn't present my offer... we all know agents with exclusive can something get greedy!

pweesng
10-06-09, 10:22
This statement is only true to the neighbour projects that are sold to HDB upgraders. You have to take note that certain projects in prime area are moving fast.

When I tell people to buy in Dec to Mar, people say that price will drop further. Now I tell people to choose carefully but can still buy, people tell me that the fundamentals are not there and the market will come down in later. Mark my words, unless there is another major unforeseen event happening, the end 2009 and coming 2010 will only be better. If not, it will also maintain current pricing by moving sideward rather than downwards.

Ha ha... actually these are people you should keep in close contact with.

from my experience, when they start to buy, it is time to offload...

Just to share with you... previously i had a unit at this crappy project, more than 2 km from the main road. i paid slightly over 1 mio for it...

The rental yield was damn good though... i was clocking >10% p.a. A good friend of my was telling it that the market is flat... the development is so far away...blah blah blah.... leasehold property is for fools.. and whatever reason he can think off.

18 months into ownership, after collection 16k rental per month! The same friend decided that market was too good for him to sit outside any longer... he made an offer for a unit in the same development... at the same time i let go of my unit at more than twice my purchase price...

He bought his, i sold mine.

since then, the market hasn't seen daylight.

pweesng
10-06-09, 10:27
I suggest that you approach a loan agent which has contact from many banks. Unless you can get a very good loan arrangment from a banker you know.

Get a tentative loan approval (70%, 80% or 90%) with the targeted few property that you have in mind. Once you have the unit number, get the bank/agent to do an immediate valuation. Yes, the valuation may be lower, but chances of the bank to match the valuation are still possible unless the asking price from seller is too drastic. Alternatively, to ask the seller to match or lower the asking price as the bank cannot match. If the seller is desperate, they may match otherwise, it is better to move on. The banks must have a good reason not to match (take note of the key word, "banks" not one but all).

yep... agree...

The best way to move forward is this:-

1) call a bank, give them your financial status, and your income.
2) ask from them, how much can the bank support in loan.
3) ask for a written in principle approval.

With this, you can then know a budget that you can work with.

next question is, select properties that is within your budget. The above valuation issue is only a matter of how much cash you need to cough out at the onset. In theory it shouldn't affect your decision that much, honestly.

Also, bear in mind, once you have an OTP at hand, banks quite a lot of time can suddenly match the valuation. But for prudent sake, best have a bit of margin to play with.

In you know any valuer from any big houses, you can ask them to do valuation for you as well. Banks will accept that, and they even pay up to $750 for it. if the valuer are your friends... a bit easier to convince.

Acer
10-06-09, 10:32
where to check the build ratio?

what is the present build ratio requirement?

Property_Owner
10-06-09, 10:54
This statement is only true to the neighbour projects that are sold to HDB upgraders. You have to take note that certain projects in prime area are moving fast.

When I tell people to buy in Dec to Mar, people say that price will drop further. Now I tell people to choose carefully but can still buy, people tell me that the fundamentals are not there and the market will come down in later. Mark my words, unless there is another major unforeseen event happening, the end 2009 and coming 2010 will only be better. If not, it will also maintain current pricing by moving sideward rather than downwards.

Well said, that why you got your southbank so cheap

pweesng
10-06-09, 10:58
where to check the build ratio?

what is the present build ratio requirement?

URA decides on the build ratio. They would be able to give you that information.

The BR for each area is different. And the URA Master Plan changes every 5 years, so there is no way to know for sure.

what we can do is to do an educated guess. for example, the next change in master plan is at 2012 or 2013. and since the city area is always growing, a lot of people expects the BR for the novena area to be increase tremedously, since Newton area has already been increased 5 years ago. That is why novena area has been snapped up. Especially the old developments. UOL also has a lot of projects in Newton / novena area. Internal sources tells me that they think that is the next area of growth and may become the next "city" area. They want to be in there early, and be known as the city shaper...

Of course, these are hearsays, and we can only try to make an educated guess

new2mondrian
10-06-09, 19:43
This statement is only true to the neighbour projects that are sold to HDB upgraders. You have to take note that certain projects in prime area are moving fast.

When I tell people to buy in Dec to Mar, people say that price will drop further. Now I tell people to choose carefully but can still buy, people tell me that the fundamentals are not there and the market will come down in later. Mark my words, unless there is another major unforeseen event happening, the end 2009 and coming 2010 will only be better. If not, it will also maintain current pricing by moving sideward rather than downwards.

absolutely true. market is definitely looking up. I just turned down a cheque from a very keen buyer, who is willing to top up $100k above bank valuation. there is still a lot of liquidity out there.

爱屋及乌
10-06-09, 22:59
My offer was turned down due to someone offered 3K more. However , seller come back to me 1 week later due to his buyer loan rejected by bank , so his cheque bounch.



absolutely true. market is definitely looking up. I just turned down a cheque from a very keen buyer, who is willing to top up $100k above bank valuation. there is still a lot of liquidity out there.

DKSG
10-06-09, 23:34
My offer was turned down due to someone offered 3K more. However , seller come back to me 1 week later due to his buyer loan rejected by bank , so his cheque bounch.

And u got your unit ?

YFG

DW
11-06-09, 00:21
Assuming your facts are right and such an event actually happened;
its shocking that the agent actually agreed to pay the difference in selling price and your offered price, and even more surprising (the agent must be blindingly stupid!!), you actually managed to get even any form of compensation!!!

Given you guys decided to take action, the burden of proof basically will lie with you guys. First, there is a need to establish contract, if not present a duty, either duty of care or fiduciary duty (statutory obligations are out of the window in this instance).

Even if you guys get through the first stage (which in itself is not all always that direct, unless he has an exclusive and even then, its arguable that it will at best be standard DoC). The next thing is to prove damages caused. Obviously, the seller will purport for the formulation you suggest... but it is also possible to look at it another way. As part of his duty, he has exercise due care and professional assessment that this is not the in the best interest of client to consider such offer (assuming you managed to put forwad DoC or FD above). English case law is persuasive but not binding. This said, there are a number of instances where it has been ruled that agents (property) may not necessary penalised if they have proven/shown to exercise discretion consistent of the level of care as reasonably to be assumed.

For your case, you are not even privy to that contractual (if any) or agency relationship. You can only at best, try to enforce some right via the Third Parties Act... and even so, the agent's obligation to you in respect of that applicable will be extremely limited !!

I can understand why the agent may settle out of court for the case with teh seller. As for paying you, the agent must be a real idoit!





It depends, there was once i made an offer. The agent signed and indicated that the owner rejected my offer.

A couple of months later, the unit was sold for less then the price i offered. i got in touch with the owner, we sue the agent.

anyway, it was settled out of court. Basically the agent had to pay the owner the difference in the selling price and my offered price.

i was given some compensation too, coz the selling price and the market price was a big margin.

So, think again, if one is an agent and decides to sign on it.

Anyways, there are ways to check if it is the owner or not. Telephone number, NRIC photocopy.. etc..etc...

what i want to establish is that the owner saw my offer and decide to reject, and not because the agent didn't present my offer... we all know agents with exclusive can something get greedy!

apple3
11-06-09, 01:31
yep... agree...

The best way to move forward is this:-

1) call a bank, give them your financial status, and your income.
2) ask from them, how much can the bank support in loan.
3) ask for a written in principle approval.

With this, you can then know a budget that you can work with.

next question is, select properties that is within your budget. The above valuation issue is only a matter of how much cash you need to cough out at the onset. In theory it shouldn't affect your decision that much, honestly.

Also, bear in mind, once you have an OTP at hand, banks quite a lot of time can suddenly match the valuation. But for prudent sake, best have a bit of margin to play with.

In you know any valuer from any big houses, you can ask them to do valuation for you as well. Banks will accept that, and they even pay up to $750 for it. if the valuer are your friends... a bit easier to convince.

Hi Pweesng, foremost, I enjoy reading your article so far. But I beg to differ on the above in bold.

Bank ONLY accept certify valuer that are on panel.

No matter what, Bank still do their own valution for secure loan, if you happen to have 1 or 10 reports, they are just reference.

If you happen to know a valuer that are on panel and happen to be the one doing valuation for the property that you are pledging and you are using him to convincing the bank mgr, 3 things may happen;

1. The staff will act blur and take it as never hear before.
2. The staff will be a fool and in deep shit for entertaining this instance.
3. Upon reporting, the loan facility will be terminated immediately pending reviews & investigation.

The above are applicable to local bank practices only.

Property_Owner
11-06-09, 09:42
Hi Pweesng, foremost, I enjoy reading your article so far. But I beg to differ on the above in bold.

Bank ONLY accept certify valuer that are on panel.

No matter what, Bank still do their own valution for secure loan, if you happen to have 1 or 10 reports, they are just reference.

If you happen to know a valuer that are on panel and happen to be the one doing valuation for the property that you are pledging and you are using him to convincing the bank mgr, 3 things may happen;

1. The staff will act blur and take it as never hear before.
2. The staff will be a fool and in deep shit for entertaining this instance.
3. Upon reporting, the loan facility will be terminated immediately pending reviews & investigation.

The above are applicable to local bank practices only.

If you use a valuer not from the bank, they have the riight t rejext your report. Banks use 3 panel of valuers, average out of use the highest valuation and factor in some other issues which i think so, then issue out the loan. If everyone starts to be friend valuers and getting their own valuations, you will see a bubble blust again soon.

pweesng
11-06-09, 09:53
If you use a valuer not from the bank, they have the riight t rejext your report. Banks use 3 panel of valuers, average out of use the highest valuation and factor in some other issues which i think so, then issue out the loan. If everyone starts to be friend valuers and getting their own valuations, you will see a bubble blust again soon.

Actually not really.

First of all, as long as the valuer is in the panel, the bank cannto reject.

Secondly, the bank does not do a full valuation. For loan purpose, they only do desktop valuation.

Trust me on this, i used to do this for a living in my younger days.

pweesng
11-06-09, 09:56
Given you guys decided to take action, the burden of proof basically will lie with you guys. First, there is a need to establish contract, if not present a duty, either duty of care or fiduciary duty (statutory obligations are out of the window in this instance).

I can understand why the agent may settle out of court for the case with teh seller. As for paying you, the agent must be a real idoit!


Well, first of all, it wasn't difficult to proof. Given that the signature on the acknowledgement letter is forged.

There are other issues as to why i was given a compensation. However, i have signed a NDA in settlement of the issue.

pweesng
11-06-09, 10:00
If you happen to know a valuer that are on panel and happen to be the one doing valuation for the property that you are pledging and you are using him to convincing the bank mgr, 3 things may happen;

1. The staff will act blur and take it as never hear before.
2. The staff will be a fool and in deep shit for entertaining this instance.
3. Upon reporting, the loan facility will be terminated immediately pending reviews & investigation.

The above are applicable to local bank practices only.

So what happen... If for examply i work in a property developer company professionally. And part of my work, i work with property valuers on a dialy basis... these people are all my friends...

and so happen they are appointed to do a valuation on a property i am purchasing... the 3 points above applies too?

I can tell you for sure.. .As long as your valuation report is from a reputable house that is on the panel of the bank (and almost all big houses are). They will have no reason to reject your valuation report, as long as it is within 30 to 60 days of issue.

爱屋及乌
11-06-09, 11:24
Not yet , because I realized that the buyer and I had pushed the price up during the previous negotiation. I will only consider if the seller willing to accept my original offer.


And u got your unit ?

YFG

Property_Owner
11-06-09, 11:38
Not yet , because I realized that the buyer and I had pushed the price up during the previous negotiation. I will only consider if the seller willing to accept my original offer.

What you mean?

novel
11-06-09, 12:45
Not yet , because I realized that the buyer and I had pushed the price up during the previous negotiation. I will only consider if the seller willing to accept my original offer.

yes good for you, dun be so impulsive and let the seller extort from you.

vin002
11-06-09, 14:32
Not yet , because I realized that the buyer and I had pushed the price up during the previous negotiation. I will only consider if the seller willing to accept my original offer.

Ya good to know that you are the only buyer left. Best is that you give a 1% cheque for the option and ask the ower if they want to accept, otherwise, you will go for another property. Don't waste your time.

apple3
11-06-09, 19:42
So what happen... If for examply i work in a property developer company professionally. And part of my work, i work with property valuers on a dialy basis... these people are all my friends...

and so happen they are appointed to do a valuation on a property i am purchasing... the 3 points above applies too?

I can tell you for sure.. .As long as your valuation report is from a reputable house that is on the panel of the bank (and almost all big houses are). They will have no reason to reject your valuation report, as long as it is within 30 to 60 days of issue.

Do you know how many SISV certified valuers out there in the market?
And how many valuation houses out there in the market?
Lastly, how many properties in Singapore?

Do you know what are the chances like in a case where you happen to see a property AND the person the bank call up from panel to conduct the valuation is your friend and you happen to know him? It is very slim pal, unless on you instruct your friend-valuer to do so.

And back to the onus, yes, the bank have no reason to reject the panel report. BUT if the loaner is KNOWN to be a friend or related to the valuer, the report MUST NOT be use. I repeat, clear conflict of interest, on policy, must not be use. This is a secure loan, if default occur and reprocession fail with such arrangement (friend-valuer) on the record, the person that approve the loan will be taken to task.

The reason why I have been hugging on this issue is while you could be right on surface for some issues, you could indirectly get some forumer into trouble or unnecc inconveniences if they heed your advise to get friend-valuer to approach bank in a round the bush manner. Do you think we are so dumb not knowing all the private undertable arrangement?

DKSG
12-06-09, 00:42
And there is a limit how much valuer can do ...

Add a few percentage points to the valuation---> can ...

U want your friend to add 15% to your property ... think he will not be your friend for long ... haha!

YFG

apple3
12-06-09, 03:29
And there is a limit how much valuer can do ...

Add a few percentage points to the valuation---> can ...

U want your friend to add 15% to your property ... think he will not be your friend for long ... haha!

YFG

There are certainly some flexiblity here. But I guess one have to be able to get hold of the valuer the bank has called in the first place. Follow by if the bank mgr got the balls to ask for a revise as a friend favor.

I do agree that fictional increase will get the valuer strike off the panel. Worse if there are personal gain.

DW
12-06-09, 22:58
Well, first of all, it wasn't difficult to proof. Given that the signature on the acknowledgement letter is forged.

There are other issues as to why i was given a compensation. However, i have signed a NDA in settlement of the issue.

I think we are just talking about different things. I am specific about my reference - as the point of law in awarding damage, not the need to proof if a forgery was indeed done.

To claim damages, FIRST you must prove or establish there is a contract or duty being breached. If the agent do not have a written contractual arrangement or any agency agreement in place, you then have to prove a duty was breached. Again, I am not referring to the need to prove forgery. The principles of law is a very logical process and it has nothing to do if such a forgery is in place. In any case, if it was indeed a material case of forgery, the case would have taken up by AG (criminal breach of trust) instead.

This is standard (which I cannot understand why the confusion by some between the legal obligation of one and moral wrong) - to claim damage, you have to first demonstrate relationship, basis, breach and damages/recourse.

I am talking about first establish your claim of the relationship, not the forgery part. For what its worth, the forgery part would be the last of the legal analysis, if you get the drift. Its damages that matter, not the causal act that lead to this. This is crystal clear and evident in all judgements, as far as Singapore courts are concerned.

Thats why I am completely shocked what an idoit that agent could have been in this assumed dealing with you. Signing an NDA, I see no reason why you have to limit your rights and increase your obligation on the same.

Anyway, glad you met such an idoit agent.

Property_Owner
13-06-09, 12:45
And there is a limit how much valuer can do ...

Add a few percentage points to the valuation---> can ...

U want your friend to add 15% to your property ... think he will not be your friend for long ... haha!

YFG

Maybe can for her. You never know. How many times she can buy and sell? Guess 2? or 3? That's why bank may find it ok to ........ For me? pai seh....I'm scare loh....

pweesng
15-06-09, 10:37
i never talk about asking valuers to match the value of the property 15% to 20% ah...

In any case, unless it is one of those black and white houses that is so rare to come by, under today's conditions, no one in the right mind would purchase a unit that is valued 15% below the market price.

most of the cases i come across, the valuation is just short of abit, and the buyer is limited in terms of cash, hence need someone to match the valuation.

i don't have to argue to make anyone believe me. Those who have done it before, knows how this can be done :scared-2:

pweesng
15-06-09, 10:45
Legally, speaking, the agent don't have to pay me a single cent. but if i were to take this case up to the court, yes, i may not win, but the agent would not be walking away from the court house with deals lining up, waiting for him to sell. What does it cost me? $50k or $60k? its not a big sum, i will burn it just to get him down for the rest of his career.

Sometimes, whether the agent would agree to resolve the matter privately, also depends on the circumstance he or she is under. Look at the war, not the battle.

To me, to settle it, at least he still got some brains... to fight it, he would be a complete idiot. Either way, he is going to lose, its a matter of now, or future business.

Anyway, this is talking about a civil suit. There is nothing criminal involve. If i can establish that i lose money becase of what he did previously, there is a case, as to how much i will get in award, or whether i woudl even win the case, it is not up to you or me.

But if his name gets flashed across the newspaper, he is definitely losing in someways.





I think we are just talking about different things. I am specific about my reference - as the point of law in awarding damage, not the need to proof if a forgery was indeed done.

To claim damages, FIRST you must prove or establish there is a contract or duty being breached. If the agent do not have a written contractual arrangement or any agency agreement in place, you then have to prove a duty was breached. Again, I am not referring to the need to prove forgery. The principles of law is a very logical process and it has nothing to do if such a forgery is in place. In any case, if it was indeed a material case of forgery, the case would have taken up by AG (criminal breach of trust) instead.

This is standard (which I cannot understand why the confusion by some between the legal obligation of one and moral wrong) - to claim damage, you have to first demonstrate relationship, basis, breach and damages/recourse.

I am talking about first establish your claim of the relationship, not the forgery part. For what its worth, the forgery part would be the last of the legal analysis, if you get the drift. Its damages that matter, not the causal act that lead to this. This is crystal clear and evident in all judgements, as far as Singapore courts are concerned.

Thats why I am completely shocked what an idoit that agent could have been in this assumed dealing with you. Signing an NDA, I see no reason why you have to limit your rights and increase your obligation on the same.

Anyway, glad you met such an idoit agent.

DW
19-06-09, 22:24
Legally, speaking, the agent don't have to pay me a single cent. but if i were to take this case up to the court, yes, i may not win, but the agent would not be walking away from the court house with deals lining up, waiting for him to sell. What does it cost me? $50k or $60k? its not a big sum, i will burn it just to get him down for the rest of his career.

Sometimes, whether the agent would agree to resolve the matter privately, also depends on the circumstance he or she is under. Look at the war, not the battle.

To me, to settle it, at least he still got some brains... to fight it, he would be a complete idiot. Either way, he is going to lose, its a matter of now, or future business.

Anyway, this is talking about a civil suit. There is nothing criminal involve. If i can establish that i lose money becase of what he did previously, there is a case, as to how much i will get in award, or whether i woudl even win the case, it is not up to you or me.

But if his name gets flashed across the newspaper, he is definitely losing in someways.

Some more than 10 years ago Philip Yeo publicly named government scholars whom broke their bond in order to shame them as well; part of the intent was naturally to create a personal diaster for these scholars. There was also 2 separate instances of agents trying to get off multiple tenants with their deposits, on pseudo leases, which the owner was never aware of. Anyone remembered any of their names without having to search the news archives ??

More often than not, forummers like to indulge in the anonymity of internet and start to sprout interesting scenarios, arguments and in some instances, rather shaky and weak legal arguments fundamentally flawed.
I appreciate there are certain individuals sometimes have "personal mandates" to put up a response for personal gratification (particularly behind the veil of anonymity over the internet, which is a convenient approach), notwithstanding however unsubstantiated, supported or unthought of. Human minds are often far too forgetful to remember ill-publicity. The basis of leveraging against another individual in that a insignificant sum of money can get someone down the rest of his career; by way of public circulation does not convince me nor hold any water on its own.

I am precise and specific in my views. My primary goal was really to share my experiences and expertise with my views on the legal basis of a certain supposedly scenario and what appears to be a clear "overhand" in respect of the said dispute. As a matter of factly, the litigation cost for such cases are certainly not going to be in the range you have suggested. I am not sure how certain forummers can sprout such number which seems to be clearly ignorant to the bindingly obvious. As to the impact of future business, I clearly cannot see how it will impact on the same, given it is likely only parties privy to such incidents will be made awared of.

*I learned from some forrumers about this phrase - "talk is cheap", and I would say this is one instance which I certainly is learning how to apply on.

Anyway, I rest my case. I have come across way too many such individuals which tries to convince the uninformed; putting forward propositions base on shockingly illogical, ungrounded and unfounded theories or considerations (I refer to the legal basis of consideration). I do not expect everyone in the forum to be a particularly trained in legal arguments but it would be decent to ask individuals to be less embarassed, if it ok to say so.

It is not my intention to embarass anyone or to be offending but I ask participants herein to put up some decency and perhaps respect for yourself ; and arguments put forward to be minimally substantiated, not necessarily with the force of the law, but with basic logic.

teddybear
19-06-09, 23:22
I also find the incident hard to believe, but since I am not sure whether legally this can be push to the extreme, I can only give the benefit of doubt. Thanks for clearly articulating your views. Your input is much appreciated.


Some more than 10 years ago Philip Yeo publicly named government scholars whom broke their bond in order to shame them as well; part of the intent was naturally to create a personal diaster for these scholars. There was also 2 separate instances of agents trying to get off multiple tenants with their deposits, on pseudo leases, which the owner was never aware of. Anyone remembered any of their names without having to search the news archives ??

More often than not, forummers like to indulge in the anonymity of internet and start to sprout interesting scenarios, arguments and in some instances, rather shaky and weak legal arguments fundamentally flawed.
I appreciate there are certain individuals sometimes have "personal mandates" to put up a response for personal gratification (particularly behind the veil of anonymity over the internet, which is a convenient approach), notwithstanding however unsubstantiated, supported or unthought of. Human minds are often far too forgetful to remember ill-publicity. The basis of leveraging against another individual in that a insignificant sum of money can get someone down the rest of his career; by way of public circulation does not convince me nor hold any water on its own.

I am precise and specific in my views. My primary goal was really to share my experiences and expertise with my views on the legal basis of a certain supposedly scenario and what appears to be a clear "overhand" in respect of the said dispute. As a matter of factly, the litigation cost for such cases are certainly not going to be in the range you have suggested. I am not sure how certain forummers can sprout such number which seems to be clearly ignorant to the bindingly obvious. As to the impact of future business, I clearly cannot see how it will impact on the same, given it is likely only parties privy to such incidents will be made awared of.

*I learned from some forrumers about this phrase - "talk is cheap", and I would say this is one instance which I certainly is learning how to apply on.

Anyway, I rest my case. I have come across way too many such individuals which tries to convince the uninformed; putting forward propositions base on shockingly illogical, ungrounded and unfounded theories or considerations (I refer to the legal basis of consideration). I do not expect everyone in the forum to be a particularly trained in legal arguments but it would be decent to ask individuals to be less embarassed, if it ok to say so.

It is not my intention to embarass anyone or to be offending but I ask participants herein to put up some decency and perhaps respect for yourself ; and arguments put forward to be minimally substantiated, not necessarily with the force of the law, but with basic logic.

DW
20-06-09, 00:15
You are welcome.

pweesng
22-06-09, 13:38
Fine with me, whether you believe or not.

I also do not need to convince you that the incident really happen.

In any case, there isn't anything for me to benefit from it.

If you are willing to put a wager and prove me wrong, then let's talk. anonmity or not, I always prefer to put dough where my fingers are.

McKinnon
11-07-09, 16:53
hi, need some advice.

which bank gives the highest valuation nowadays? maybank?

teddybear
11-07-09, 22:36
Try UOB & OCBC.


hi, need some advice.

which bank gives the highest valuation nowadays? maybank?

Douk
12-07-09, 00:06
Try UOB & OCBC.

thought these 2 are quite conservative. should try those banks with smaller market share. maybank and the offshore banks may be more aggressive to give higher value for loan.. just my thoughts.:2cents:

McKinnon
12-07-09, 08:40
thank you very much teddybear!


Try UOB & OCBC.

teddybear
12-07-09, 22:02
Not too sure about this as I heard from friends who are looking for loan that only UOB and OCBC are giving valuations close to asking price of buyers (their experience are that all asking prices now are above bank valuations).


thought these 2 are quite conservative. should try those banks with smaller market share. maybank and the offshore banks may be more aggressive to give higher value for loan.. just my thoughts.:2cents:

Douk
12-07-09, 22:10
Not too sure about this as I heard from friends who are looking for loan that only UOB and OCBC are giving valuations close to asking price of buyers (their experience are that all asking prices now are above bank valuations).


i see. when i bought a resale unit 3 months ago, uob has the lowest valuation. i end up with DBS. didnt check offshore banks as i am not comfortable with the top up clause. thanks.