View Full Version : Any one been to Property Investment Seminars?
Hi all,
wondering if anyone here actually attended a property investment seminar, ie. paid couple of thousands to attend?
For those who attending, do u find it useful or profitable?
Thanks.
Whatever they "teach" you - you could find out online by googling yourself or reading property forums.
You ever see Bill Gates giving lectures on how to become an entrepreneur or Warren Buffet give lecture about investing?
Why not? Those who can do. Those who can't teach.
Advice will probably be as valuable as you get from options trading and Forex classes. One thing guaranteed is that the course giver will get paid.
Property_Owner
16-12-09, 12:57
Still not enough here?
Hi all,
wondering if anyone here actually attended a property investment seminar, ie. paid couple of thousands to attend?
For those who attending, do u find it useful or profitable?
Thanks.
Definitely very useful and profitable.
After attending these seminars, you will learn about:
1. English idioms such as "There is a fool born every minute".
2. Luxurious properties in Singapore such as "Sentosa Cove".
3. Fashion accessories such as "Hermes Birkin handbags".
The Straits Times
March 17, 2009
Trading 'expert' ordered to refund fees
A GROUP of 49 people scored a legal victory over a self-styled expert on option trading who turned out to have a dodgy doctorate from an unaccredited American university.
A dozen of the course participants said they had paid Mr Clemen Chiang between $3,600 and $4,000 last year for a three-day course on option trading - a complex and risky investing technique which often amounts to betting on share-price trends.
Several had also forked out another $960 for training software and a handful paid $1,600 to $12,000 more for online tutorials referred to as 'webinars'.
Mr Chiang, a 34-year-old Nanyang Technological University engineering graduate, has been running these seminars for a few years at his Freely Business School in North Bridge Road.
He would tell students his own success story of how he made millions, and he drew hundreds of participants.
He claimed to have a PhD in option trading, a rarity in the finance industry here.
But when it came to light last year that his doctorate was from the unaccredited Preston University in Alabama, the group of 49 wanted their money back.
Yesterday, the Small Claims Tribunal found that Mr Chiang had misrepresented his qualifications. It awarded all participants a refund of close to 80 per cent of their fees for the seminar and a full refund for the cost of the software and 'webinars'.
Mr Chiang, who still calls himself 'Dr', attended the hearing but did not speak to The Straits Times.
The Small Claims Tribunal is part of the Subordinate Courts and can hear claims involving the sale of goods or services not exceeding $10,000.
Outside the tribunal, several participants said they felt cheated when they read a Straits Times expose on degree mills last August. The report named Mr Chiang as having a PhD from an unaccredited university.
Sales representative Terence Tan, 41, said: 'I signed up because of his PhD. Option trading is a complicated thing. I thought this guy should know what he is talking about since he had a PhD in it.
'So imagine my shock when I found out that his degree was not from a recognised university.'
Like some others, he felt the course fell short of providing a good understanding of option trading.
Engineer William Hui, who paid $8,000 for himself and his wife to attend Mr Chiang's course, said: 'He should have called it 'Millionaire mindset', because for a whole day, it was just about how much money he made, his Sentosa Cove bungalow http://images01.olx.co.id/ui/1/02/69/1939369_1.jpg
and his wife's Hermes Birkin handbag http://fashionabletv.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/red_hermes_birkin_handbag.jpgcosting over $10,000.
'When he finally went into his so-called method of trading in options, I found it lacking. And then he tried to sell his software for another $960.'
Mr Chiang still claims to have a PhD on several of his websites, but makes no mention of Preston University, which American education authorities have called a 'degree supplier' offering 'fraudulent or substandard degrees'.
Last August, he told The Straits Times that he was also pursuing another PhD at the University of South Australia.
When asked then why he had opted for a degree from an unaccredited institution, he said he wanted to complete a PhD in double-quick time.
Because Preston University was listed as a partner of a private school registered with the Education Ministry here, he said he thought it was an accredited institution.
It was only later that he realised that Preston was not accredited in the United States, he said.
Like other business people who had bought fake degrees, Mr Chiang said then that it helped to pave the way in business.
Checks last year found more than 200 people - including prominent businessmen and financial consultants - flaunting degrees, MBAs and doctorates from degree mills and unaccredited, substandard institutions.
The best way to be successful in property investment is in part knowing how to do your sums. I've came across bankers, auditors, taxation officers who can't count if their lives depended on it.
Also, be diligent in your excel workings and cover all grounds and scenarios where possible.
Hi tuckster,
I've attended such a program before and thus, would tend to be bias about the benefits of such program. So, please read with a pinch of salt...:tongue3:
I am a newbie property investor and in fact, after attending the seminar, I decided not to invest in the initial property I had targetted, because I re-did my sums and re-evaluted the location of my initial 'target' and decided it is not worth it. Since I am not keen anymore, I can share that the condo I was looking at is The Ansley, D11, "near" Novena MRT.:tsk-tsk:
Unlike other types of investment, property investment seemed like quite a mystery art, compared to stock investment, because there are tons of books on stock investment insights, for instance, Fundamental investing (e.g. Value / Growth) and Analytical investing (e.g. 50-Day Moving Average / Momentum / CandleSLIM)...
By insights, I mean, who / what / when / where / how is the money being made in property investment? Due to my ignorance, there seems to be no good books for the insights to property investment... if the other gurus would like to share any good books, please enlighten me! :o
During the seminar I attended, I learnt from other classmates, that they had learnt some of the lessons, the hard way, paying for their mistakes. For some of them, the money paid or the opportunity costs, is way above the seminar fees and they felt that they should have attended the seminar before their first property purchase! :D
Of course this site has lotsa of information and definitely covers the insights and infact, it has too much information and in bits & pieces! Maybe some gurus can piece up all the info into a co-herent strategy / game plan / insight? :p
Also hor, having more info is also a problem, I need to know, which is really good info vs which are just nonsense from unqualified investor! :banghead:
There is no free lunch in this world and I believe it is safe to say, nobody would share publicly, the exact condo that they are intending to buy, in this forum... right? :D
In conclusion, I still think that the seminar I attended is worth the money because I now have a game plan and know exactly the 'target' that I should be working on. :spliff:
have fun,
fc
disclaimer: Not all seminars is worth the money! :tsk-tsk: Go to the previews with eyes wide open and check up on the trainer, before committing any money!:cool:
proud owner
17-12-09, 00:05
3. Fashion accessories such as "Hermes Birkin handbags".
The Straits Times
March 17, 2009
Trading 'expert' ordered to refund fees
http://images01.olx.co.id/ui/1/02/69/1939369_1.jpg
and his wife's Hermes Birkin handbag http://fashionabletv.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/red_hermes_birkin_handbag.jpgcosting over $10,000.
quote]
the most expensive Hermes i have seen recently in NY ..limited .. only 1 piece .. ostrict skin ... not on display somemore ... selling between
25-32k USD ... they still havent decided on the selling price ..but already gotten alot of enquiries
the most expensive Hermes i have seen recently in NY ..limited .. only 1 piece .. ostrict skin ... not on display somemore ... selling between
25-32k USD ... they still havent decided on the selling price ..but already gotten alot of enquiries
That's more expensive than a plot of seafront land 450 sqm (4,844 sf) in Brazil!
http://photos.mondinion.com/pictures/thumbs2/hash100/133732-5.jpghttp://www.replicashandbag.com/bimg/hermes_555.jpg
Land seafront in a paradise of Brazil.
Luxury Development land seafront, best beach of Brazil, Ceará. Flexeiras Beach.
* Price: 34,650 BRL (~ $ 16,759 USD)
Those who think that Sentosa Cove is too expensive and its sea view is not good enough, should buy a seafront plot in a third world country.
Alternatively, it may be more prestigious to buy a Hermes.
just ask yourself, if it's really that good, why should they share the information with you...
they can make a big pile for themselves.
i've once attended a short options talk, paid $25 for it. picked up some ideas, tried it out at home and came to the conclusion that the guy is plain bullshit. say until covered call is a real easy win, ha. just take a couple of down periods follow by a spike up, and you'll realise a big loss on the capital and earn pittance from the income on the selling of the covered calls.
Regulators
17-12-09, 01:32
:doh: It reminds me of the guy who keeps bragging that he is top 1% in NUS and dropped out of primary 3 and owns an educational company, professing to be a self-made millionaire in his twenties (when he has the backing of a rich dad). Heard from some parents and students his motivational talks are crap and does little to help a lot of students:doh:
just ask yourself, if it's really that good, why should they share the information with you...
they can make a big pile for themselves.
i've once attended a short options talk, paid $25 for it. picked up some ideas, tried it out at home and came to the conclusion that the guy is plain bullshit. say until covered call is a real easy win, ha. just take a couple of down periods follow by a spike up, and you'll realise a big loss on the capital and earn pittance from the income on the selling of the covered calls.
just ask yourself, if it's really that good, why should they share the information with you...
they can make a big pile for themselves.
They always have a ready answer for that.
It's because "They have a heart of gold, and want to spread their gospel so that everyone can be rich, just like them".
Hmmm ... sounds like someone in this forum here who keeps preaching his "Propertism" religion ... except that this guy doesn't charge for his gospel. :rolleyes:
i'm of the opinion that, in property investment, learning from others' mistakes is definitely better than learning from one's own mistake... :D
then, next question is, which experts would share, without holding back & for free, the mistakes they make and the properties that they are going to invest in? quite slim chance, unless if they are family / relatives... :p
since i do not have any family / relatives who are successful property investors to guide me, i decided to look for my own sifu... since I wan to learn from the sifu, then i have to pay lor... :)
my opinion is that not all trainers are con-man lar.... and hor, the value of teachings is not so easily quantifiable and that is probably why a lot of con-men can get away quite easily.... :banghead: :doh:
so, if you are keen to attend any seminar / training, you can go to a few of those free previews before deciding... i have attended 3 previews, before choosing the one that I paid for.... :D
there are always 2-side to the coins... from the trainer's view, its a business afterall! if there is no money to be made, why bother to share the knowledge!? :spliff:
from the trainee's view, if i can benefit more than the money that i paid for, why not?! so, its is the perceived / real benefits of the training that is key! make sure you are able to realised the returns on investment, before parting with your hard-earned money! :D
have fun!
fc
:doh: It reminds me of the guy who keeps bragging that he is top 1% in NUS and dropped out of primary 3 and owns an educational company, professing to be a self-made millionaire in his twenties (when he has the backing of a rich dad). Heard from some parents and students his motivational talks are crap and does little to help a lot of students:doh:
Yep, the same fella came to my mind too :p
I always take a look of the profile of the trainers. These are some cases I came across
case 1 : the trainer has a monthly income of $1,500, and build a $18m worth of properties within five years,
case 2 : the trainer has $10,000 saving and built multi-million worth of properties within few years
case 3 : fipped properties and made $20m in 2007.
the questions
1. can these claims be verified? fact?
2. how did they get the financing?
case 3 : possible if u have the capital and read the timing correctly.
And if they can make so much money within such a short time, why should they conduct preview and preview to collect trainees ? and not many sign up also
What to learn from the seminars is mainly to master how to time the property market. Picking properties / locations are relatively easier than timing the market.
As such, timing is not just reading the property market alone, there are many many indicators, include the currency, fund flow, other countries property markets, govt policies, interest, population, economy etc.
In short, a lot to read and learn
Regulators
17-12-09, 11:10
for case 2, 10k cash not even enuf to buy a hdb these days coz covs are already 20k to 50k. Even to pay the initial down for a pte pty is also not enuf. Unless he rolls the 10k in the stock mkt b4 pumping principal plus profit in the pty mkt, i dnt see how one can turn 10k savings into a multimil pty portfolio. That guy is probably a bull talker
I always take a look of the profile of the trainers. These are some cases I came across
case 1 : the trainer has a monthly income of $1,500, and build a $18m worth of properties within five years,
case 2 : the trainer has $10,000 saving and built multi-million worth of properties within few years
case 3 : fipped properties and made $20m in 2007.
the questions
1. can these claims be verified? fact?
2. how did they get the financing?
case 3 : possible if u have the capital and read the timing correctly.
And if they can make so much money within such a short time, why should they conduct preview and preview to collect trainees ? and not many sign up also
What to learn from the seminars is mainly to master how to time the property market. Picking properties / locations are relatively easier than timing the market.
As such, timing is not just reading the property market alone, there are many many indicators, include the currency, fund flow, other countries property markets, govt policies, interest, population, economy etc.
In short, a lot to read and learn
What do you guys think about Andy Ong from ERC then?
What do you guys think about Andy Ong from ERC then?
Yes, he is my case 2, had a preview yesterday, did not sign up
Yes, he is my case 2, had a preview yesterday, did not sign up
Oh,I thought he's very credible.. with the likes of Douglas Foo and Ang Kong Hua partnering him..
He recently acquired a $48 million bugis commercial building with his partners (i believed it's them).
Regulators
17-12-09, 15:00
Douglas Foo, the owner of Apex Pal comes from a rich family.
To the rich, making a million from their millions is always easy. To the poor, making their first 100k then their first million is an incredibibly hard climb. I am speaking from experience.
Oh,I thought he's very credible.. with the likes of Douglas Foo and Ang Kong Hua partnering him..
He recently acquired a $48 million bugis commercial building with his partners (i believed it's them).
Douglas Foo, the owner of Apex Pal comes from a rich family.
Is he by any chance related to Dennis Foo? They kinda look alike ..
Regulators
17-12-09, 15:04
not too sure about that, but not difficult to find out from google.
Is he by any chance related to Dennis Foo? They kinda look alike ..
case 2 : the trainer has $10,000 saving and built multi-million worth of properties within few years
Oh you were there also? Did you leave before the Q&A?
I think one of the question then was about the 10k, how to be possible. :)
If I remember correctly, the answer is something like he used the 10k to start a business, made some profits and started investing with more than the 10k lar... and it was a pooled investment, i.e. he only came up with a fraction of the 20% deposit...
have fun!
fc
Regulators
17-12-09, 15:10
that is common sense. so many of my relatives with no education have also thought about pooling money to buy properties before. from my previous threads, if you gungho enough, can even own two hdb properties, use it to roll and own a third property (a condo). my formula can retire with less than 1 mil net worth and i dont think property seminars will have the balls to teach that....
Oh you were there also? Did you leave before the Q&A?
I think one of the question then was about the 10k, how to be possible. :)
If I remember correctly, the answer is something like he used the 10k to start a business, made some profits and started investing with more than the 10k lar... and it was a pooled investment, i.e. he only came up with a fraction of the 20% deposit...
have fun!
fc
To the rich, making a million from their millions is always easy. To the poor, making their first 100k then their first million is an incredibibly hard climb. I am speaking from experience.
stop blowing your own trumpet lah.
blow me instead.
bitch.:) :) :)
Haha ... some of you actually believe in these things ...
http://www.doreenmolloy.com/Gypsy%20and%20crystal%20ball.JPGhttp://www.hcvod.com/movie_html/pic/20092201259417441.jpg
http://www.hollywoodchicago.com/uploaded_images/hp5/400/dumbledore.jpg
http://www.savagechickens.com/images/chickenanything.jpg
http://hornbillunleashed.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/bullshit.jpg
Regulators
17-12-09, 22:22
i would blow you if you are chewing gum, but again, you are just a hole filled with shit so too bad, i would give it a miss.
stop blowing your own trumpet lah.
blow me instead.
bitch.:) :) :)
hee... you guys are a bunch of humorous folks... really like the photos... hee:D
jlrx and regulators masters, i've followed some of your posts and also agreed with some of your opinions... like property is meant to be bot & not sold and that the non-prime areas are really over-priced (e.g. centris@Jurong selling for 870psf).
so hor, would you guys be keen to compile your wu-gong-mi-ji and share it here for free? i suggest a title like, Sun Tzu Art of War for Singapore Property Investment... once you have it ready, I can help to publish it as e-Book and share to everyone...
Once we do that, all these con-man will be out of business... hee....
how does the proposal sound to you guys?
have fun,
fc
i'm of the opinion that, in property investment, learning from others' mistakes is definitely better than learning from one's own mistake... :D
then, next question is, which experts would share, without holding back & for free, the mistakes they make and the properties that they are going to invest in? quite slim chance, unless if they are family / relatives... :p
since i do not have any family / relatives who are successful property investors to guide me, i decided to look for my own sifu... since I wan to learn from the sifu, then i have to pay lor... :)
my opinion is that not all trainers are con-man lar.... and hor, the value of teachings is not so easily quantifiable and that is probably why a lot of con-men can get away quite easily.... :banghead: :doh:
so, if you are keen to attend any seminar / training, you can go to a few of those free previews before deciding... i have attended 3 previews, before choosing the one that I paid for.... :D
there are always 2-side to the coins... from the trainer's view, its a business afterall! if there is no money to be made, why bother to share the knowledge!? :spliff:
from the trainee's view, if i can benefit more than the money that i paid for, why not?! so, its is the perceived / real benefits of the training that is key! make sure you are able to realised the returns on investment, before parting with your hard-earned money! :D
have fun!
fc
no need to attend course, there are plenty of books available. and the knowledge they impart are just as valuable, and it's cheaper too.
no need to attend course, there are plenty of books available. and the knowledge they impart are just as valuable, and it's cheaper too.
dear kane,
please share a few titles that is relevant in the local context? thanks very much for your sharing...
fc
i don't find any local titles strategic enough, most sell motherhood and apple pie. in fact, you get a lot more wisdom in this forum if you read through some of the postings.
so hor, would you guys be keen to compile your wu-gong-mi-ji and share it here for free? i suggest a title like, Sun Tzu Art of War for Singapore Property Investment... once you have it ready, I can help to publish it as e-Book and share to everyone...
Actually, there is no so-called "Art of War".
It's all based on a very simple logic. Cash devalues over the long run, so assets must go up.
Let me quote someone whose post I have kept because it's so succinct:
you can buy anything today and expect it to be worth more 1000 years down the road. It's called inflation. If you buy oil today at 80 per barrel, you can expect to sell it at 800 per barrel in 10 years. commodities are as a sure bet as properties.
Fiat money is going to worth nothing in the long term. Hence properties should only be bought. Not sold.
Maybe ... let me try this reverse psychology.
Next time, when you are about to sell your condo, imagine yourself getting in exchange 4 reams of A4 paper. That's about the amount of paper needed to print $1 million worth of fiat money.
Think this way: you are not selling your condo. Instead, you are buying 4 reams of A4 paper. And you are giving away your condo to the person who is giving you 4 reams of A4 paper. :scared-4:
http://img.alibaba.com/photo/100683806/Double_AA_Copier_A4_Paper.jpg
Unfortunately, the truth is usually unpleasant and people won't pay thousands of dollars to attend my seminar if all I have to tell them is "Properties should only be bought. Not sold".
They prefer to pay thousands to listen to half-truths and untruths which make them feel good.
Regulators
18-12-09, 10:48
The best places to look at in making your property decisions are in the government websites (be it hdb or private). Check out the URA website and the masterplan, follow the news and see what developmental plans the government has in store. We are after all such a tiny island, so sometimes it is not difficult to see what is going to happen.
Property buying is often instinctive spurred by news and insights about the area, but common sense prevails at the end of the day. Check out the historical highs and lows of properties in that area and make a bet on the future developmental prospects of he area and after doing all the due diligence, buy at ease.
(In fact, I know a parcel of HDB land in a prime location that is going to En Bloc in a few years (not officially announced) and for anyone looking to move to a new flat in the prime under SERS and make money, bao huat.....:D :D :D )
hee... you guys are a bunch of humorous folks... really like the photos... hee:D
jlrx and regulators masters, i've followed some of your posts and also agreed with some of your opinions... like property is meant to be bot & not sold and that the non-prime areas are really over-priced (e.g. centris@Jurong selling for 870psf).
so hor, would you guys be keen to compile your wu-gong-mi-ji and share it here for free? i suggest a title like, Sun Tzu Art of War for Singapore Property Investment... once you have it ready, I can help to publish it as e-Book and share to everyone...
Once we do that, all these con-man will be out of business... hee....
how does the proposal sound to you guys?
have fun,
fc
Hi all,
wondering if anyone here actually attended a property investment seminar, ie. paid couple of thousands to attend?
For those who attending, do u find it useful or profitable?
Thanks.
there are many people in this thread and/or forum, who would be able and qualified to give you advise and help you if you just ask them directly and nicely (personal experience).
If you feel that you don't want to spend the money to find out or want to spend less, then go read the books. Even Robert Kiyosaki books will teach you a thing or two.
Don't be lazy.:D
These are the some of my collections
1. Rich Dad / Poor Dad - for any beginners, especially good for the teens
and some Robert Kiyosaki's books, including the latest on real estate investment which is quite difficult to read
2. Timing the real estate by Craig Hall
3. Investing against the tide by Anthony Bolton
4. A few books by Jim Roger
if u have young ones, then get this simple book for them "A gift to my children"
5. A few books about Warren Buffett
6. A few books about Ronald Trump
7. Multiple Streams of Income by Robert G Allen
8. Books by Peter Lynch, Marty Whitman
I find investing in books is far more valuable than attending seminar.
U can check up the book fair, or during investment seminars where most books are offered at 20% discount.
I start my childern reading on these books while they were teen.
The best investment I have is the investment in my children, and not the properties.
These are the some of my collections
1. Rich Dad / Poor Dad - for any beginners, especially good for the teens
and some Robert Kiyosaki's books, including the latest on real estate investment which is quite difficult to read
2. Timing the real estate by Craig Hall
3. Investing against the tide by Anthony Bolton
4. A few books by Jim Roger
if u have young ones, then get this simple book for them "A gift to my children"
5. A few books about Warren Buffett
6. A few books about Ronald Trump
7. Multiple Streams of Income by Robert G Allen
8. Books by Peter Lynch, Marty Whitman
I find investing in books is far more valuable than attending seminar.
U can check up the book fair, or during investment seminars where most books are offered at 20% discount.
I start my childern reading on these books while they were teen.
The best investment I have is the investment in my children, and not the properties.
Yes you can also try getting them at NLB.
Yes you can also try getting them at NLB.
IT is better to own than borrow.
At least u can highlight the good ones, and read at your leisure
Small money compares to the seminars / properties
Knowledge is invaluable, and I save on dinning but never save on good books. One good dinner can buy you 10-20 good books.
IT is better to own than borrow.
At least u can highlight the good ones, and read at your leisure
Small money compares to the seminars / properties
Knowledge is invaluable, and I save on dinning but never save on good books. One good dinner can buy you 10-20 good books.
I borrow and scan the entire book and carry around on my PPC phone to read anywhere anytime. :D FOC
such books and lectures are useless - i would start out with comprehensively reading discussion boards and forums - collective knowledge of contributors are tremendous , it's just that you need to invest the time to read everything.
beats being spoonfed by some halfwits writing a book or giving a talk. none of the 'warren buffett' type books are writtenby the gurus themselves, all ghost written. only warren's own letters to investors are the real deal
go to the forums and read and read until you are informed enough to draw your own conclusions. nothing beats that
such books and lectures are useless - i would start out with comprehensively reading discussion boards and forums - collective knowledge of contributors are tremendous , it's just that you need to invest the time to read everything.
beats being spoonfed by some halfwits writing a book or giving a talk. none of the 'warren buffett' type books are writtenby the gurus themselves, all ghost written. only warren's own letters to investors are the real deal
go to the forums and read and read until you are informed enough to draw your own conclusions. nothing beats that
Yes I absolutely agree with that.
Except the part about "invest the time to read everything". The way you phrase it, it's like a chore.
But if you're interested in properties, you will read everything naturally. It's like a hobby. Otherwise, it'll not be worthwhile as I'm sure all of us here have a very high time value.
such books and lectures are useless - i would start out with comprehensively reading discussion boards and forums - collective knowledge of contributors are tremendous , it's just that you need to invest the time to read everything.
beats being spoonfed by some halfwits writing a book or giving a talk. none of the 'warren buffett' type books are writtenby the gurus themselves, all ghost written. only warren's own letters to investors are the real deal
go to the forums and read and read until you are informed enough to draw your own conclusions. nothing beats that
I tend to agree, as for the property market, nothing beats reading forums, all the books mentioned are in the US context and may not always apply here, besides property market is very dynamic the start of 09 was very different from mid 09, no book can ever reflect this.
Regulators
19-12-09, 22:57
the interesting thing is that for every lousy flat, apartment or house, you will still find a buyer for it, so ultimately it boils down not just to choosing a "right" place to buy but buying it at the right price. I believe every kind of place will have a group of buyers no matter how lousy it may seem to the other group, but as to how many buyers the place attracts, it boils down to pricing. I may be condemning Centris as a condo right smack in the centre a lousy industrial location, but if the price is just slightly more than the surrounding hdb flats, i may consider buying that project for the sake of investment, not to live. On the flipside if I find a condo with all the right attributes but the price is historically high for the area, I will probably not buy it. All this has to do a lot with common sense and judgement and weighing a few factors such as property attributes, price, etc etc which all of you should know by now.
I tend to agree, as for the property market, nothing beats reading forums, all the books mentioned are in the US context and may not always apply here, besides property market is very dynamic the start of 09 was very different from mid 09, no book can ever reflect this.
Does anyone notice this Sunday Times weekly column "Me & My Money"?
Every week they interview some successful people about their personal finance.
I notice that their "Best Investments" are always these three things:
1. Properties.
2. Their own business.
3. Family/ Wife/ Children.
and their "Worst Investments" are:
1. Shares.
2. Units trusts.
3. Financial products.
The Sunday Times
Me & My Money
Savvy saver enjoying retirement now
http://a1preview.asia1.com.sg:90/A1MEDIA/business/12Dec09/images/20091221.153741_dec2109_samkahtee.jpg
Insurance, bonds and properties make up portfolio of former chairman.
Dec 20, 2009
By Lorna Tan, Senior Correspondent
Despite his background in finance, Mr Tan Kah Tee, former chairman of local insurer Asia Insurance, mistook minibonds for bonds.
The result? He lost the $30,000 which he had invested in Lehman Brothers, which collapsed spectacularly last year.
His other investments, however, have thankfully been much safer.
Mr Tan, 58, graduated from the London School of Economics with a bachelor's degree in economics with honours in 1973.
WORST AND BEST BETS
Q: My worst investment to date...
It was my $30,000 invested in Lehman Minibonds distributed by Maybank in 2006.
The terminology used to describe the product in the advertisement was 'minibond', so it gave me the impression that it was a special bond with higher interest that retail investors could buy.
It turned out to be a derivatives product. I didn't read the prospectus. It had a 5 per cent payout in the first year. I received a letter from the bank stating that I would not be compensated.
Q: My best investment to date...
My life policies and properties. So far, they have not failed me.
I bought a 3,000 sq ft unit at Teneriff in Sixth Avenue directly from the developer for $1.2 million in 2000. It was sold for $2.9 million last year. If Asia Gardens, where I have an apartment, goes en bloc, it is likely to be my next best investment.
The Sunday Times
Me & My Money
Keeping a watch on property deals
http://www.straitstimes.com/STI/STIMEDIA/image/20091227/i27-1.jpg
Swiss watch veteran keeps very little in cash, and prefers to invest in real estate
Dec 27, 2009
By Lorna Tan, Senior Correspondent
Just like many Singaporeans, Swiss watch veteran and Parmigiani chief executive Jean-Marc Jacot's first investment experience was in stocks.
He was 21 and a university student at Ipag, a business school in Paris. He set up an investment club for students at Ipag and decided to use the US$20,000 monetary gift from his grandmother to buy his first shares. He was lucky in his first few transactions and his investment doubled soon after.
'I thought the share market was a goldmine. It was only a few years later that I realised that to continue to do well in shares, you need to be a professional and spend time to monitor it daily,' said Mr Jacot, 60.
I was interested in stocks in my younger days but later realised that the value of stocks may not have anything to do with the value of the firms. It depends on market sentiment. To make money, it is better to have control over what you invest in.
When I liquidated my stock portfolio, I lost half of the S$500,000 I had invested in stocks.
My father advised me that the best long-term investments are in brick and mortar. The value of property goes up slowly but it always trends upwards due to limited space and increasing populations. In the short term, it may not be the best investment.
I have two homes in France. Besides the family home in St Tropez, I have a three-storey house in a countryside village in the centre of France. The built-up area of the latter is 200 sq m and the land area is 2,000 sq m. I bought it 16 years ago for US$500,000 and it is now worth US$2 million. I use it twice a year.
In Geneva, Switzerland, I have eight properties that I rent out, besides the condominium that I live in. The largest rental property is a 400 sq m penthouse with a terrace. I bought it in 1997 for US$1.9 million, and it is valued at about US$3 million now. I'm renting it out for US$7,000 a month. The rest of the rental properties were bought in 1988, 2001 and 2002. They average about 150 sq m and they cost about US$7 million in all. My total rental income comes close to US$30,000.
WORST AND BEST BETS
Q: My worst investment to date...
In 1994, I created a watch firm which made watches for an external brand. I had to close the business in 2005 when the principal failed to renew its licence with us. I invested US$4 million in that firm and lost all of it.
I learnt that to succeed in investments, I need to be in control. In this case, I had no control over the licence. I could make the money again, so losing US$4 million was not so bad. What hurt me was letting go of the team in my firm which helped create the watches.
Q: My best investment to date...
It is my house in St Tropez. I bought it 20 years ago at US$800,000 and it is now worth between US$5 million and US$6 million. The house is divided into two units, on the land area of 6,000 sq m. The kids use one unit and my wife and I, the other. We use the house several times a year.
I just read this article on Channel News Asia website today about a Mr Goh who lost $350,000 investing in shares using his CPF scheme.
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporelocalnews/view/1046533/1/.html
http://sg.news.yahoo.com/cna/20100328/tap-533-the-choice-cpf-231650b.html
As a pastor of PROPERTISM, I feel it is my duty to warn everyone here that SHARES are evil.
Only PROPERTISM is the true religion. The stock market is a fake religion (I hope I don't get hauled up by ISD :scared-3: ).
Here is a very simple argument. Read carefully.
The Straits Times Index (STI) or DJIA or NIKKEI indices whatever, are always tracking the successful companies. What happened to those which failed or whose values are decimated? They don't get included or are progressively removed.
If we include all the companies which failed or got decimated e.g. Pan Electric, Chartered Semiconductor, Lehman Brothers, Pan Am, Bear Stearns, eToys.com, etc etc and those that'd never got anywhere e.g. IPC, Aztech, Falmac ... and the list goes on ... the total AVERAGED out return from SHARES over the past few decades should be either zero or negative.
On the other hand, if we AVERAGE all properties in Singapore (already 80% are HDB flats) and from just this 80% alone we already know that the gains had been very very positive over the past few decades! Not to mention the remaining 20% private properties especially the en bloc properties and GCBs.
In fact, if we compose a Singapore PROPERTISM Index (SPI) that tracks a basket of only the 30 most successful properties, I can guarantee that SPI will crush the STI, DJIA, FTSE like an elephant crushing an ant.
Here is a very simple argument. Read carefully.
The Straits Times Index (STI) or DJIA or NIKKEI indices whatever, are always tracking the successful companies. What happened to those which failed or whose values are decimated? They don't get included or are progressively removed.
If we include all the companies which failed or got decimated e.g. Pan Electric, Chartered Semiconductor, Lehman Brothers, Pan Am, Bear Stearns, eToys.com, etc etc and those that'd never got anywhere e.g. IPC, Aztech, Falmac ... and the list goes on ... the total AVERAGED out return from SHARES over the past few decades should be either zero or negative.
can't agree more... it's a scam to make people feel good about the general economy... take out the rotten companies and put in the better ones, downright hypocritical... lure people into this huge casino... let's roll the dice...
can't agree more... it's a scam to make people feel good about the general economy... take out the rotten companies and put in the better ones, downright hypocritical... lure people into this huge casino... let's roll the dice...
JLRX PROPERTISM Research Corporation is pleased to announce the creation of a new property index - the JLRX Singapore Propertism Index (JSPI).
http://forums.condosingapore.com/showpost.php?p=88566&postcount=7
The JSPI index only tracks successful properties. Those that are not successful will be discarded. (Same methodology as stock indices. Remember Pan Electric and Tan Koon Swan? Luckily I didn't own any Pan Electric shares).
For example (I say for example because this had never happened before to properties here) if a property here called GM Condo or Citi House (I say just for example) got hit by a radioactive asteroid and the building totally disappeared and the land is contaminated for the next 2000 years so that the value falls to ZERO (just like it happens to some shares), then this property will immediately be removed from the "basket" by JSPI and replaced by another property, e.g. CISCO Residences.
Based on this type of "very professional" methodology, and JSPI's "specially selected" properties like Farrer Court, some GCBs and enbloced rows of terrace houses at Paterson Road and Balestier which turned into condos after their plot ratios have been revised upwards, JSPI is pleased to announce that property prices in Singapore have actually appreciated by 500% over the last 10 years. :scared-4:
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn211/jlrx_bucket/JLRXSingaporePropertismIndexJSPICom.jpg
proud owner
31-03-10, 02:12
can't agree more... it's a scam to make people feel good about the general economy... take out the rotten companies and put in the better ones, downright hypocritical... lure people into this huge casino... let's roll the dice...
you talking aboutour govt ?
they only always talk about the good .. keeping quiet about the bad ..
like bad decision by temasek .. just to name one
proud owner
31-03-10, 02:16
JLRX PROPERTISM Research Corporation is pleased to announce the creation of a new property index - the JLRX Singapore Propertism Index (JSPI).
http://forums.condosingapore.com/showpost.php?p=88566&postcount=7
The JSPI index only tracks successful properties. Those that are not successful will be discarded. (Same methodology as stock indices. Remember Pan Electric and Tan Koon Swan? Luckily I didn't own any Pan Electric shares).
For example (I say for example because this had never happened before to properties here) if a property here called GM Condo or Citi House (I say just for example) got hit by a radioactive asteroid and the building totally disappeared and the land is contaminated for the next 2000 years so that the value falls to ZERO (just like it happens to some shares), then this property will immediately be removed from the "basket" by JSPI and replaced by another property, e.g. CISCO Residences.
Based on this type of "very professional" methodology, and JSPI's "specially selected" properties like Farrer Court, some GCBs and enbloced rows of terrace houses at Paterson Road and Balestier which turned into condos after their plot ratios have been revised upwards, JSPI is pleased to announce that property prices in Singapore have actually appreciated by 500% over the last 10 years. :scared-4:
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn211/jlrx_bucket/JLRXSingaporePropertismIndexJSPICom.jpg
bravo ... you also agree that this index is biased ?
i think it is .. so those who comdemn stock index .. simply fail to see this point ...
bravo ... you also agree that this index is biased ?
i think it is .. so those who comdemn stock index .. simply fail to see this point ...
So next time someone tells you that he has made lots of money from stocks, we have to compare him with the "top property players".
Can he match the 500% gain of JRLX Singapore PROPERTISM Index (JSPI) over the last 10 years?
I myself did not make so much gain because I'm not a "top property player" but just an average one.
I didn't have the foresight to buy Farrer Court and those enblocable terrace houses at Paterson Road, or the even-numbered houses at Margate Drive (I didn't even know that even-numbered houses at Margate Road can be redeveloped into condos but odd-numbered houses cannot :doh: until someone in this forum told me).
That's why I'm not a "top property player" but just an average one.
However, over the same period of the JSPI index that I composed above, I managed a gain of 90%, which is better than the Mr Goh above who lost $350,000 in shares; Mr Tan (former Chairman of Asia Insurance some more :scared-4: ) above who lost $30,000 in Lehman Brother minibonds and Mr. Jacot (CEO some more! :scared-4: ) above who lost half the $250,000 he invested in stocks. :doh:
CONCLUSION: Properties make better investments than stocks. :cheers1:
Property_Owner
31-03-10, 10:54
JLRX PROPERTISM Research Corporation is pleased to announce the creation of a new property index - the JLRX Singapore Propertism Index (JSPI).
http://forums.condosingapore.com/showpost.php?p=88566&postcount=7
The JSPI index only tracks successful properties. Those that are not successful will be discarded. (Same methodology as stock indices. Remember Pan Electric and Tan Koon Swan? Luckily I didn't own any Pan Electric shares).
For example (I say for example because this had never happened before to properties here) if a property here called GM Condo or Citi House (I say just for example) got hit by a radioactive asteroid and the building totally disappeared and the land is contaminated for the next 2000 years so that the value falls to ZERO (just like it happens to some shares), then this property will immediately be removed from the "basket" by JSPI and replaced by another property, e.g. CISCO Residences.
Based on this type of "very professional" methodology, and JSPI's "specially selected" properties like Farrer Court, some GCBs and enbloced rows of terrace houses at Paterson Road and Balestier which turned into condos after their plot ratios have been revised upwards, JSPI is pleased to announce that property prices in Singapore have actually appreciated by 500% over the last 10 years. :scared-4:
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn211/jlrx_bucket/JLRXSingaporePropertismIndexJSPICom.jpg
You really think deep..........
The Straits Times Index (STI) or DJIA or NIKKEI indices whatever, are always tracking the successful companies. What happened to those which failed or whose values are decimated? They don't get included or are progressively removed.
If we include all the companies which failed or got decimated e.g. Pan Electric, Chartered Semiconductor, Lehman Brothers, Pan Am, Bear Stearns, eToys.com, etc etc and those that'd never got anywhere e.g. IPC, Aztech, Falmac ... and the list goes on ... the total AVERAGED out return from SHARES over the past few decades should be either zero or negative.
This is not true if you purely invest in STI ETF (Exchange Traded Fund) where the fund will faithfully readjust the portfolio to STI index stocks. The problem is most share investor has big ego, they think they are like Warrent Buffet who can handpick winners themselves.
Not only in America, but many Western countries. The downpayment is very low in Australia as well.
So, has anybody attended these talks?Some have, if you look through the thread.
Based on your JSPI index, you would have theoretically made a gain of 450% based on your 20% downpayment, before deducting interest cost, if you have leveraged like most people and borrow 80%.
Property is in a totally different league compared to stocks.
So next time someone tells you that he has made lots of money from stocks, we have to compare him with the "top property players".
Can he match the 500% gain of JRLX Singapore PROPERTISM Index (JSPI) over the last 10 years?
I myself did not make so much gain because I'm not a "top property player" but just an average one.
I didn't have the foresight to buy Farrer Court and those enblocable terrace houses at Paterson Road, or the even-numbered houses at Margate Drive (I didn't even know that even-numbered houses at Margate Road can be redeveloped into condos but odd-numbered houses cannot :doh: until someone in this forum told me).
That's why I'm not a "top property player" but just an average one.
However, over the same period of the JSPI index that I composed above, I managed a gain of 90%, which is better than the Mr Goh above who lost $350,000 in shares; Mr Tan (former Chairman of Asia Insurance some more :scared-4: ) above who lost $30,000 in Lehman Brother minibonds and Mr. Jacot (CEO some more! :scared-4: ) above who lost half the $250,000 he invested in stocks. :doh:
CONCLUSION: Properties make better investments than stocks. :cheers1:
Based on your JSPI index, you would have theoretically made a return of 450% (5x90%) on your investment, before deducting interest cost, if have have borrowed 80% like most people.
It is also reasonably safe as long as you are able to service the monthly mortgage for the 80% term loan. Local banks have yet to call on a "term loan" as long as you are able to service it, even during a crisis, due to perhaps the consequences of a widespread default. The same thing cannot be said for margin of stocks.
Conclusion: Properties are in a totally different league compared to stocks.:)
So next time someone tells you that he has made lots of money from stocks, we have to compare him with the "top property players".
Can he match the 500% gain of JRLX Singapore PROPERTISM Index (JSPI) over the last 10 years?
I myself did not make so much gain because I'm not a "top property player" but just an average one.
I didn't have the foresight to buy Farrer Court and those enblocable terrace houses at Paterson Road, or the even-numbered houses at Margate Drive (I didn't even know that even-numbered houses at Margate Road can be redeveloped into condos but odd-numbered houses cannot :doh: until someone in this forum told me).
That's why I'm not a "top property player" but just an average one.
However, over the same period of the JSPI index that I composed above, I managed a gain of 90%, which is better than the Mr Goh above who lost $350,000 in shares; Mr Tan (former Chairman of Asia Insurance some more :scared-4: ) above who lost $30,000 in Lehman Brother minibonds and Mr. Jacot (CEO some more! :scared-4: ) above who lost half the $250,000 he invested in stocks. :doh:
CONCLUSION: Properties make better investments than stocks. :cheers1:
Speaking of which, have anyone heard of Walton before? Was at the Boat Asia today and one of the sales agent painted a wonderful picture of 10-15% returns over land investment in US within 4-5yrs. Din really ask much but it sounds too good to be true haha
If Walton selling Canada land is so good returns then Canadians themselves would have snapped it all up......
:tongue3:
Based on your JSPI index, you would have theoretically made a return of 450% (5x90%) on your investment, before deducting interest cost, if have have borrowed 80% like most people.
It is also reasonably safe as long as you are able to service the monthly mortgage for the 80% term loan. Local banks have yet to call on a "term loan" as long as you are able to service it, even during a crisis, due to perhaps the consequences of a widespread default. The same thing cannot be said for margin of stocks.
Conclusion: Properties are in a totally different league compared to stocks.:)
Hey thanks! How come I didn't think about that? :doh:
When I calculated my 90% gain, I simply took the current market value of my properties compared to their total purchase price, without thinking about the leverage at all. :doh:
Let me do a recalculation just based on the amount I have put in (excluding the loan) ...
Wow ... you are very accurate! :scared-4:
It's 462% !!!
I didn't know I have made 462% from my property investments!!! :scared-4:
I was thinking all the time it's just 90%!
Thank you! Thank you! :cheers1:
You have suddenly made my day so much brighter!
To think that I'd considered myself an expert in PROPERTISM!!! :ashamed1:
But ... somehow this seems quite strange.
I need some time to get used to this way of thinking. :scared-5:
Leverage is the key advantage property has over stocks. We should buy properties in countries with high GDP growth and prudent economic policies and hold on to them for the long term. Properties in some parts of Shanghai went up by approximately 800% in the last 8 years. You are theoretically looking at a 40 bagger if you play your cards right.:)
Anything to make you smile.;)
Hey thanks! How come I didn't think about that? :doh:
When I calculated my 90% gain, I simply took the current market value of my properties compared to their total purchase price, without thinking about the leverage at all. :doh:
Let me do a recalculation just based on the amount I have put in (excluding the loan) ...
Wow ... you are very accurate! :scared-4:
It's 462% !!!
I didn't know I have made 462% from my property investments!!! :scared-4:
I was thinking all the time it's just 90%!
Thank you! Thank you! :cheers1:
You have suddenly made my day so much brighter!
To think that I'd considered myself an expert in PROPERTISM!!! :ashamed1:
But ... somehow this seems quite strange.
I need some time to get used to this way of thinking. :scared-5:
Walton is selling you a lottery ticket. Raw land in the suburbs with no yield is high risk investment. Have you seen the size of Canada on a map??? There are safer and more lucrative places to put your money.
Speaking of which, have anyone heard of Walton before? Was at the Boat Asia today and one of the sales agent painted a wonderful picture of 10-15% returns over land investment in US within 4-5yrs. Din really ask much but it sounds too good to be true haha
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