View Full Version : HDB HOUSING LAWS PASSED TOO FAST?
Regulators
06-03-10, 01:28
I was out at work the whole day yesterday and by the time I reached home, the law was passed upping the minimum occupation period for non-subsidised flat to 3 years and several other measures. A law as such affecting tens of thousands of people in Singapore can be passed in a day or less than a week? Where is our so called democracy? What if there are people who need to downgrade due to financial difficulties or a thousand and 1 other reasons? i think our garmen is too consumed with imposing anti-speculation measures that they fail to look at other real life issues people might face. 3 years is a bloody long time to force people to hold on to their flats even when a person has fully paid for the flat and not taking any subsidy from the garmen. I hope the opposition will raise this up during the coming elections and may the people open up their eyes more to what kind of govt we have....
I was out at work the whole day yesterday and by the time I reached home, the law was passed upping the minimum occupation period for non-subsidised flat to 3 years and several other measures. A law as such affecting tens of thousands of people in Singapore can be passed in a day or less than a week? Where is our so called democracy? What if there are people who need to downgrade due to financial difficulties or a thousand and 1 other reasons? i think our garmen is too consumed with imposing anti-speculation measures that they fail to look at other real life issues people might face. 3 years is a bloody long time to force people to hold on to their flats even when a person has fully paid for the flat and not taking any subsidy from the garmen. I hope the opposition will raise this up during the coming elections and may the people open up their eyes more to what kind of govt we have....
Responsive to complaints government. Look at all the new laws to control foreigners and PR's as well. LOL
Regulators
06-03-10, 02:19
i think we are the only country in the world that passes laws faster than one has enough time to change clothes.
Squall8888
06-03-10, 03:13
Will it affects current owners? I mean if it doesn't, then it's ok. Anyway, this is what singaporeans want right?
Regulators
06-03-10, 04:56
those who keep complaining to the govt are the goons at the end of the day. Assuming they buy a resale flat they dont like, they will get stuck wth it for 3 long yrs b4 they can change to anthr flat LOL. Got money buy pte so dnt hv to abide by some crap regulatns. Anyway hv to tolerate wth not just MOP, but also graffitti, urine at stairways n lifts, loan shark harrassment, unwantd fliers etc for that 3yrs.
Will it affects current owners? I mean if it doesn't, then it's ok. Anyway, this is what singaporeans want right?
I think the real problem driving up demand (prices) for HDB is not so much private pty owners buying HDB flats for investment, thereby creating artificial demand, it is actually the HDB owners who are buying private property and NOT selling their HDB that is creating problems.
I think there should be a ruling that HDB owners are only allowed to own pte property for first 5 years or upon TOP, whichever comes first, after that they have to sell it back to HDB at original subsidised price including any grants given.
This will immediately free up ALOT of HDB flats and private condos and help supply and moderate prices in both sectors.
Nowadays any fool can buy $1m condo with 10% and use HDB rental to finance the monthly instalment.
HDB/PAP are you listening?
Geylang OKT
06-03-10, 06:48
This govt is very scared of its citizens so must do everything to please them to the detriment of non nationals :D
Thought of that too but understood why this isn't implemented. It would almost immediately cause a plunge in property prices :doh:
I was out at work the whole day yesterday and by the time I reached home, the law was passed upping the minimum occupation period for non-subsidised flat to 3 years and several other measures. A law as such affecting tens of thousands of people in Singapore can be passed in a day or less than a week? Where is our so called democracy? What if there are people who need to downgrade due to financial difficulties or a thousand and 1 other reasons? i think our garmen is too consumed with imposing anti-speculation measures that they fail to look at other real life issues people might face. 3 years is a bloody long time to force people to hold on to their flats even when a person has fully paid for the flat and not taking any subsidy from the garmen. I hope the opposition will raise this up during the coming elections and may the people open up their eyes more to what kind of govt we have....
The new MOP of 3 yrs only affects new resale applications wef 5th Mar. Thus existing owners who for `financial difficulties or a thousand and 1 other reasons' need to down grade will still be able to sell within 1 yr. Its those who buys from now onwards that is affected. This is good and encourages prudent spending, sans speculative, dangerous activity. Implicitly, MBT is telling people buying a flat requires long term financial planning. If you over-stretch yourself, and can't even hold for 3 yrs, then one might consider buying a cheaper flat or a smaller flat where no matter what happens, you can still hold for 3 yrs or more.
I have said moons ago that our ppty mkt (public and pte) is highly speculated and if px rise too fast, the govt will take necessary actions to tame the raging bull. Their intentions are clear but you choose to distort their intentions just because it might disrupt your plans to flip your ppty at higher prices? Its laughable you even hope the opposition will raise this matter. Why don't you raise it yourself instead of asking the opposition to take up the matter? If you really feel so much for the disadvantaged, why don't you take up the course yourself? Talk so much and make it seem so noble , haha.
Thought of that too but understood why this isn't implemented. It would almost immediately cause a plunge in property prices :doh:
that'll be great! :p right now, those who want to sell their HDBs to finance their new condo purchases may have more difficulty if demand eases, which means they will be more gan cheong as TOP approaches. the more losers there are, the more it teaches those people in HDB to think long long first before buying private.
that'll be great! :p right now, those who want to sell their HDBs to finance their new condo purchases may have more difficulty if demand eases, which means they will be more gan cheong as TOP approaches. the more losers there are, the more it teaches those people in HDB to think long long first before buying private.
That (plunge) will not happen as it has no benefits to the country and government.
The general rule is that it will only affect speculators as genuine occupiers don't buy/sell their flats within 3yrs. Ask yourself, how many newly bought (whether resale or direct from HDB) HDB apartments are there in the market? Percentage wise, this falls below 10% of the total in SG. Genuine upgraders who are holding on to their 5yr old flat can sell and upgrade, no problem whatsoever.
The end results, this will stabilize the property market and maintain current prices forever. That's the very least or prices might even launch higher.
Agree. If I am one of those upgrader who stretched to buy the 1mil ppt, I would sell my HDB now then later.
that'll be great! :p right now, those who want to sell their HDBs to finance their new condo purchases may have more difficulty if demand eases, which means they will be more gan cheong as TOP approaches. the more losers there are, the more it teaches those people in HDB to think long long first before buying private.
I was out at work the whole day yesterday and by the time I reached home, the law was passed upping the minimum occupation period for non-subsidised flat to 3 years and several other measures. A law as such affecting tens of thousands of people in Singapore can be passed in a day or less than a week? Where is our so called democracy? What if there are people who need to downgrade due to financial difficulties or a thousand and 1 other reasons? i think our garmen is too consumed with imposing anti-speculation measures that they fail to look at other real life issues people might face. 3 years is a bloody long time to force people to hold on to their flats even when a person has fully paid for the flat and not taking any subsidy from the garmen. I hope the opposition will raise this up during the coming elections and may the people open up their eyes more to what kind of govt we have....
all this while u thought SG is a democracy??? hahaha :o
<But the new policy comes with strings attached. Currently, cash sales proceeds from the sale of a flat need not be used for the purchase of the next one. But with the change, sellers can only keep the greater of $25,000 or half of the cash proceeds. The remaining cash and CPF balance has to be used to finance the purchase of the next flat if they take up a HDB concessionary loan..>
There's more...
What happens to those who genuinely needs to selloff their HDB flats and use the cash proceeds for other uses when TOP comes? :doh:
<But the new policy comes with strings attached. Currently, cash sales proceeds from the sale of a flat need not be used for the purchase of the next one. But with the change, sellers can only keep the greater of $25,000 or half of the cash proceeds. The remaining cash and CPF balance has to be used to finance the purchase of the next flat if they take up a HDB concessionary loan..>
There's more...
What happens to those who genuinely needs to selloff their HDB flats and use the cash proceeds for other uses when TOP comes? :doh:
then use bank loan for 2nd purchase lor...
Regulators
06-03-10, 23:04
hahaha, r u 1 of those disgruntled homebuyers who missed several boats? People have all along bought n sold their flats according to hdb rules so now hdb is fussing about just becoz electn is coming n they need to appease people?? Why do they need to blame the speculators for hi flat pxs when we all knw who orchestrated it? Very simple, all hdb needs to do is to change the way hdb flats r valued (not basing on the flawed comparative method wth other transactns nearby).
The new MOP of 3 yrs only affects new resale applications wef 5th Mar. Thus existing owners who for `financial difficulties or a thousand and 1 other reasons' need to down grade will still be able to sell within 1 yr. Its those who buys from now onwards that is affected. This is good and encourages prudent spending, sans speculative, dangerous activity. Implicitly, MBT is telling people buying a flat requires long term financial planning. If you over-stretch yourself, and can't even hold for 3 yrs, then one might consider buying a cheaper flat or a smaller flat where no matter what happens, you can still hold for 3 yrs or more.
I have said moons ago that our ppty mkt (public and pte) is highly speculated and if px rise too fast, the govt will take necessary actions to tame the raging bull. Their intentions are clear but you choose to distort their intentions just because it might disrupt your plans to flip your ppty at higher prices? Its laughable you even hope the opposition will raise this matter. Why don't you raise it yourself instead of asking the opposition to take up the matter? If you really feel so much for the disadvantaged, why don't you take up the course yourself? Talk so much and make it seem so noble , haha.
Regulators
06-03-10, 23:12
Have u forgotten our Pledge? There may not be democracy in practice but to blatantly disregard it is anthr matter.
all this while u thought SG is a democracy??? hahaha :o
The end results, this will stabilize the property market and maintain current prices forever. That's the very least or prices might even launch higher.
How can properties maintain current prices forever? :scared-4:
Propertism Religion Rule No. 1 - Property prices will always go up in the long term simply because paper money will eventually lose all its value.
Of course your second statement "prices might even launch higher." is correct. Anyone who thinks otherwise will turn into dinosaur skeleton http://www.famemaster.com/Product/4D-Puzzle-Toys/Prehistoric/Gift-Box-Series/4D-Puzzle-Toy-Prehistoric-Dino-Brachiosaurus-Skeleton-Fossil-26635-Icon-Self-1.gif waiting 31 years yet "No Reply from Authorities", like the Straits Times Forum Complainer (MSDOS Version) below, who wrote in 1979 "So much has been said about the ESCALATION OF PROPERTY PRICES :scared-4:, yet the authorities concerned have not commented".
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn211/jlrx_bucket/NoReplyFromAuthorities19791210.jpghttp://www.madd0.com/files/dinosaurs/T-Rex.jpg
If CKM had spent time doing more productive things like looking at the property classifieds, instead of writing complaint letters to the Straits Times, he/she might have come across this advertisment in 1979.
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn211/jlrx_bucket/HongLeongGardenCondo19790507.jpg
Perhaps the "Authorities" today can reply "Dear CKM, Please explain why $79,000 for a condominium is considered ESCALATION OF PROPERTY PRICES ? What ESCALATION are you talking about? Are you aware that one day $79,000 can't buy you even an HDB three room flat? If you don't quickly grab that $79,000 condo, how long are you still going to wait for property prices to "plunge"?"
http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/upload/2009/04/what_wiped_out_the_dinosaurs/age-dinosaur-bones-1.jpg
Have u forgotten our Pledge? There may not be democracy in practice but to blatantly disregard it is anthr matter.
go see your MP lor, haha :o
hahaha, r u 1 of those disgruntled homebuyers who missed several boats? People have all along bought n sold their flats according to hdb rules so now hdb is fussing about just becoz electn is coming n they need to appease people?? Why do they need to blame the speculators for hi flat pxs when we all knw who orchestrated it? Very simple, all hdb needs to do is to change the way hdb flats r valued (not basing on the flawed comparative method wth other transactns nearby).
:spliff: Thankfully I boarded the Singapore property boat long before this forum was even created and save for 3 local pte ppty that I have no intention to sell unless 2 of them gets enbloc, I have no desire to get onto the Sg ppty boat. I'm quite happy to let you guys fight it out, seriously. I'm only concerned with the social impact for the future generation if ppty px are unattainable for my kids...ok, I had that sorted which is why I'm keeping 2 condos but i'm sure there will be others out there who are worried for their kids.
Besides, in a short space of 18 mths, I have already bought and sold numerous overseas ppty and save for a townhouse at Verdue which I contemplated buying, none other ppty in Sg interests me at all. While you are right I missed the recent Sg ppty boat but I'm not disgruntled as I boarded a more rewarding ppty boat overseas....ok, I have to admit I'm squared for a ppty in Canary Wharve due to the depreciation of the pound.
I'm not sure how seasoned you guys are in the ppty mkt. For me, I've only been thru 2 cycles? First entered the mkt in the 90s thru Tulip Gdn and Leedon Hts. Made my 1st mio mainly from the exodus of hong kongers to sg. If I had just exited the mkt 3 mths late, I'm probably dead by now. While I do not claim to be seasoned in ppty, I can keenly smell it when speculation is in the air. Burnt smell is nice, just make sure its not your flesh that is burnt.....
I'm not sure how seasoned you guys are in the ppty mkt. For me, I've only been thru 2 cycles? First entered the mkt in the 90s thru Tulip Gdn and Leedon Hts. Made my 1st mio mainly from the exodus of hong kongers to sg. If I had just exited the mkt 3 mths late, I'm probably dead by now. While I do not claim to be seasoned in ppty, I can keenly smell it when speculation is in the air. Burnt smell is nice, just make sure its not your flesh that is burnt.....
How could it be that if you "had just exited the mkt 3 mths late," you're "probably dead by now"? :confused:
Leedon Heights was en blocked in April 2007 to GuocoLand for $835 million, so each of the 314 units would have fetched $2.66 million, on average.
Instead, it should be that if you "had not exited the mkt at all," you "would make even more money by now"? :cheers1:
This is another example of the benefits of Propertism Rule No. 1 - Properties should only be bought. Not sold. Unless through En Bloc. Then quickly get a replacement property.
Another benefit of believing in Propertism, the belief that property prices will always go up in the long term, is that there is no need to be afraid of "speculation" or "burnt flesh".
For example, 1981 was a highly speculative year when "RIDICULOUS PRICES" were set.
See how "RIDICULOUS" some of these prices were, e.g. 2,400 sq ft Chen Yuan Apartment (the former site of Urbana at 1 River Valley Close) asking $800,000 or $333 psf.
RIDICULOUS!!!
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn211/jlrx_bucket/RidiculousPrices19810418.jpg
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn211/jlrx_bucket/PropertyClassifieds19810421.jpg
Regulators
07-03-10, 23:17
hdb sets the rules for people and people buy and sell their properties according to the rules meted out by the government so why is the government blaming us for anything? Demographics in singapore has changed since years back when immigration was more stringent and it is inevitable for people to buy and sell houses due to several factors ranging from the need to upgrade to accommodate new family members, the need to downgrade due to old age and many more reasons. if the government is really interested to control the prices of hdb, shouldnt they start relooking at the way property prices are valued instead? Why should a 5 room flat in Mei Ling Street be valued at $780000 just becoz some idiot is willing to pay $800000 plus for a 5 room flat in that area? It is stupid to even suggest that speculators are driving up prices of HDB flats when HDB does the valuation and send prices sky rocketing. HDB has created an environment for home sellers to thrive, i.e. future valuations are always based on past transacted prices in the area (which will always and almost certainly be higher each time). if they really want to curb rising prices of hdb flats, they should not be looking to pinpoint their fingers at so called speculators but rather look at the methods they employ in valuing properties. Deviating from past trasacted prices is the way to start if they really want to control prices of hdb flats, not restricting people from selling their flats for 3 years and cutting back on loans which unduely penalises those in hardship and need to sell their flat for money or those who are doing too well in their career and looking to upgrade to a bigger flat in 1 year.
:spliff: Thankfully I boarded the Singapore property boat long before this forum was even created and save for 3 local pte ppty that I have no intention to sell unless 2 of them gets enbloc, I have no desire to get onto the Sg ppty boat. I'm quite happy to let you guys fight it out, seriously. I'm only concerned with the social impact for the future generation if ppty px are unattainable for my kids...ok, I had that sorted which is why I'm keeping 2 condos but i'm sure there will be others out there who are worried for their kids.
Besides, in a short space of 18 mths, I have already bought and sold numerous overseas ppty and save for a townhouse at Verdue which I contemplated buying, none other ppty in Sg interests me at all. While you are right I missed the recent Sg ppty boat but I'm not disgruntled as I boarded a more rewarding ppty boat overseas....ok, I have to admit I'm squared for a ppty in Canary Wharve due to the depreciation of the pound.
I'm not sure how seasoned you guys are in the ppty mkt. For me, I've only been thru 2 cycles? First entered the mkt in the 90s thru Tulip Gdn and Leedon Hts. Made my 1st mio mainly from the exodus of hong kongers to sg. If I had just exited the mkt 3 mths late, I'm probably dead by now. While I do not claim to be seasoned in ppty, I can keenly smell it when speculation is in the air. Burnt smell is nice, just make sure its not your flesh that is burnt.....
Regulators
07-03-10, 23:29
you go on and on in this entire forum selling the idea of propertism when there is nothing more than inflation coupled with strong economic fundamentals that drive property prices up over the years. My parents who were just drawing $400 a month income in the early 80s would be drawing 20 times that amount today. Likewise for a property sold at $200000 in the 1980s and valued at $1mil or even 2 mil today is quite normal and no big hoohah. :doh:
How could it be that if you "had just exited the mkt 3 mths late," you're "probably dead by now"? :confused:
Leedon Heights was en blocked in April 2007 to GuocoLand for $835 million, so each of the 314 units would have fetched $2.66 million, on average.
Instead, it should be that if you "had not exited the mkt at all," you "would make even more money by now"? :cheers1:
This is another example of the benefits of Propertism Rule No. 1 - Properties should only be bought. Not sold. Unless through En Bloc. Then quickly get a replacement property.
Another benefit of believing in Propertism, the belief that property prices will always go up in the long term, is that there is no need to be afraid of "speculation" or "burnt flesh".
For example, 1981 was a highly speculative year when "RIDICULOUS PRICES" were set.
See how "RIDICULOUS" some of these prices were, e.g. 2,400 sq ft Chen Yuan Apartment (the former site of Urbana at 1 River Valley Close) asking $800,000 or $333 psf.
RIDICULOUS!!!
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn211/jlrx_bucket/RidiculousPrices19810418.jpg
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn211/jlrx_bucket/PropertyClassifieds19810421.jpg
you go on and on in this entire forum selling the idea of propertism when there is nothing more than inflation coupled with strong economic fundamentals that drive property prices up over the years. My parents who were just drawing $400 a month income in the early 80s would be drawing 20 times that amount today. Likewise for a property sold at $200000 in the 1980s and valued at $1mil or even 2 mil today is quite normal and no big hoohah. :doh:
If everyone can think like you, then I can retire from preaching the Propertism religion.
However the fact is, everytime there is a crisis (which is bound to happen every few years), some idiots will panic and dump their properties in fire sales causing prices to fall.
What I am trying to show these idiots is that they had been just IDIOTS.
new2mondrian
08-03-10, 09:07
I think the real problem driving up demand (prices) for HDB is not so much private pty owners buying HDB flats for investment, thereby creating artificial demand, it is actually the HDB owners who are buying private property and NOT selling their HDB that is creating problems.
I think there should be a ruling that HDB owners are only allowed to own pte property for first 5 years or upon TOP, whichever comes first, after that they have to sell it back to HDB at original subsidised price including any grants given.
This will immediately free up ALOT of HDB flats and private condos and help supply and moderate prices in both sectors.
Nowadays any fool can buy $1m condo with 10% and use HDB rental to finance the monthly instalment.
HDB/PAP are you listening?
Quite a lot of interesting views on this thread, from HDB housing policies to the definition of democracy. Let me add my 2 cents worth:
1) One of the key elements of democracy lies in the one man, one vote system. Everyone has a right to determine who (and which party) he/she wants to vote for, regardless of his/her social stature or income level. Therein lies the greatest challenge to HDB's public housing policy. With home ownership for citizens (aka THE Voters) at more than 80%, any policy that devalues their greatest asset (aka the HDB flat) is vastly unpopular. But any policy that causes wild speculative movement in HDB prices is not popular either. A long term (stable) appreciation of HDB prices keeps the HDB dwellers happy, and provides the floor for mass market condo prices, and also keep the remaining 12-15% of Singaporeans in mass market condos happy. Hence, any key election strategy will always be aimed at the long term sustainable appreciation of HDB flats (eg main upgrading programs, lift upgrading, precinct upgrading, MRT/LRT lines etc etc), and not the reverse trend.
2) To dictate that HDB owners (aka the voters) sell off their flat within 5 years of owning a private property does not address the full concern, nor will it alleviate the problem of escalation in flat prices. 5 years is sufficient for at least 1-2 property cycles, and market synergies (of demand and supply) might have changed during that period. And this unfairly penalises property investment (in Singapore) as an asset class vis-a-vis other asset classes.
To me, the appreciation of HDB prices in matured estates is largely due to the flexible policy behind subletting (and the difficult albeit loose enforcement against illegal subletting). The rental yield, and the ease of rental income, behind the HDB flat has induced many to purchase HDB or hang onto them as part of their property portfolio, and led to the escalation of HDB prices in recent years. So what if a 3 room flat in Queenstown costs $400k? If someone can rent it out for $1.8k per month, the yield is still attractive; not to mention that the person remains vested in all future upgrading programs.
Should the Govt be really serious about keeping the lid on prices and ensuring genuine demand, then the most logical path is to return to the fundamentals of the HDB housing policy, which is to provide housing for its citizens. Public housing is for purely self-stay purposes, not for speculation, not for rental. However, this policy will again prove unpopular to those who have benefitted/are benefitting from the loose rental policy and definitely not a pre-election measure. Hence we shall all wait and see if the market still calls for further "refinements" to MBT's policies.
good thoughts!
The beauty of it is that the worst it becomes, the more likelyhood that drastic measures will be introduced. It is a slow and gradual road to death... Everyone walks down that road. Just when it is the time to walk... now we are just talking about walking or having baby steps.. we'll run when the time comes.
new2mondrian
What I suggested is definitely not popular but I believe it will temper property prices.
As first time HDB owners, that actually means that they have deprived another really needy person of one queue space, subsidy (real or perceived) and govt grant, so if this group of people have done well enough to buy another private property without selling their HDB, they are well and truly sucessful in the Singapore dream, therefore should rightfully give up their subsidised flat, or at least pay back the difference in current market price and original purchase price and whatever grant they have taken. Or make it MANDATORY that they continue to stay in their HDB regardless of MOP and as long as they hold on to private property.
This will have the effect of freeing up more flats for those who cannot hold HDB and private pty and make others think twice about owning private property while still holding on to their HDBs and this would have a siginificant impact on increasing supply, as this HDB owner buying pte pty group is large and growing.
I have no qualms about private property owners buying HDB at open market prices including COVs, this would in effect enrich HDB owners and as a resale flat, there are no grants or subsidies taken so no foul.
In a truly democratic structure the rich must be able prosper and be rewarded for hard work and achievements. They less well off should be helped but not at the expense of the other less well off.
BTW I am curious as to your gender, your public profile shows you as male but sometimes you claim to be a mom :confused:
new2mondrian
08-03-10, 09:48
new2mondrian
BTW I am curious as to your gender, your public profile shows you as male but sometimes you claim to be a mom :confused:
Oops.... u mean there is a public profile option? I think it's defaulted to male then for any new sign-ups. I have never accessed my own public profile.... :(
Let me go figure it out, and I'll change it. Wah lau, how to be male and a mom?!!! I am definitely a female and proud of it. :)
new2mondrian
08-03-10, 09:50
I have just changed it! Gosh.... there is even a "Don't Know" in the gender option.... what is the world coming to???!!! :doh:
I have just changed it! Gosh.... there is even a "Don't Know" in the gender option.... what is the world coming to???!!! :doh:
LOL you have been a 'male' for 2 years :D
new2mondrian
08-03-10, 09:56
new2mondrian
What I suggested is definitely not popular but I believe it will temper property prices.
As first time HDB owners, that actually means that they have deprived another really needy person of one queue space, subsidy (real or perceived) and govt grant, so if this group of people have done well enough to buy another private property without selling their HDB, they are well and truly sucessful in the Singapore dream, therefore should rightfully give up their subsidised flat, or at least pay back the difference in current market price and original purchase price and whatever grant they have taken. Or make it MANDATORY that they continue to stay in their HDB regardless of MOP and as long as they hold on to private property.
This will have the effect of freeing up more flats for those who cannot hold HDB and private pty and make others think twice about owning private property while still holding on to their HDBs and this would have a siginificant impact on increasing supply, as this HDB owner buying pte pty group is large and growing.
I have no qualms about private property owners buying HDB at open market prices including COVs, this would in effect enrich HDB owners and as a resale flat, there are no grants or subsidies taken so no foul.
In a truly democratic structure the rich must be able prosper and be rewarded for hard work and achievements. They less well off should be helped but not at the expense of the other less well off.
BTW I am curious as to your gender, your public profile shows you as male but sometimes you claim to be a mom :confused:
Actually I absolutely agree with your stand on making it absolutely mandatory for HDB dwellers (who own multiple private properties) stay in their HDB after the MOP. HDB is for self-stay, not for speculation nor rental. Allowing the concept of MOP and subletting opens a huge pandora box, not to mention social ills. You visit certain precincts in SengKang where 3 China-nationals families are crammed in 1 flat, and their furniture spilled all over the common corridor and the entire floor is almost fully rented to China/Indian tenants, you will know what I mean. Is this what Singaporeans want? Is this part of the remaking Singapore? It's time HDB returns to its fundamentals and relook its past policies.
Will the following satisfy majority of singapore citizens without causing too much impat to property prices?
Every citizen husband and wife (can be citizen-citizen or citizen-PR) can only have 1 chance in buying directly from HDB. This is to ease the demand of new HDBs to cater for the new generations.
After MOP of 5 yrs, can sell to upgrade or downgrade to another HDB, but can only buy from open market.
If HDB is bought from open market, should not have any restriction, including PR, or singles. This will substain the demand of resale HDB and keep prices stable.
Can keep existing HDB to rent out, provide fully paid, if only buying one private to stay (as one might want to move back to HDB should unfortunately things happen or when kids grow up and move out). Must sell HDB to buy 2nd private.
In a truly democratic structure the rich must be able prosper and be rewarded for hard work and achievements.
Alright, for argument sake :cool: , why profiting from HDB policies should NOT be tolerated, and rewarded ? After all, that is also "hard work and achievements" isn't it ? Why profiting directly (i.e. buy new HDB and sell later to profit) is considered ok, whereas profiting more "intelligently" (i.e. KEEP the HDB but rent for yield thus retaining future upside) is considered not ok ?
To me, there is simply no such thing as "who is fairer". Hundreds of thousands of Singaporeans had profited from these HDB business since 1980s one way or the other. HDB had long long changed from an agency providing basic housing needs, to an agency providing Singaporeans with a source of income/wealth. The Gov is not even humble on this : ur HDB is supposed to be a long term appreciating asset. So every now and then there will always be a few twists of the policy to suit the market. MOP, renting rules, quota, whatever, all can be changed later if the market changes. Nothing to shout abt. HDB market always has a greater policy risk. This has always been the case.
new2mondrian
08-03-10, 10:51
Can keep existing HDB to rent out, provide fully paid, if only buying one private to stay (as one might want to move back to HDB should unfortunately things happen or when kids grow up and move out). Must sell HDB to buy 2nd private.
Hahahhaa.... since I am adamant that my child should grow up amidst the masses in public housing, time for me to sell everything and find the largest FH land plot (aka 1 private property only) I can find (and afford) in D9/10/11.
Or hmmm.... I should start looking at overseas properties.... maybe New York or better still, London, esp since the GBP is at its historic low. :D anyone with any suggestions?
Allthepies
08-03-10, 12:05
I think all these arguments on HDB stems from their outdated mission statement
"We provide affordable homes of quality and value."
Should quickly change it to something like this to stem out all arguments
"We provide homes of quality and value if u can afford it." :)
The_Way_I_See_It
08-03-10, 12:20
Have u forgotten our Pledge? There may not be democracy in practice but to blatantly disregard it is anthr matter.
It has already publicly acknowledged the pledge is actually an aspiration nia ...Poor Sinkapoorean :scared-3::(
Alright, for argument sake :cool: , why profiting from HDB policies should NOT be tolerated, and rewarded ? After all, that is also "hard work and achievements" isn't it ? Why profiting directly (i.e. buy new HDB and sell later to profit) is considered ok, whereas profiting more "intelligently" (i.e. KEEP the HDB but rent for yield thus retaining future upside) is considered not ok ?
To me, there is simply no such thing as "who is fairer". Hundreds of thousands of Singaporeans had profited from these HDB business since 1980s one way or the other. HDB had long long changed from an agency providing basic housing needs, to an agency providing Singaporeans with a source of income/wealth. The Gov is not even humble on this : ur HDB is supposed to be a long term appreciating asset. So every now and then there will always be a few twists of the policy to suit the market. MOP, renting rules, quota, whatever, all can be changed later if the market changes. Nothing to shout abt. HDB market always has a greater policy risk. This has always been the case.
Selling and making a profit by selling later is tolerated as you do not artificially create demand by so called 'owning' two properties, holding HDB and leasing out to finance private property is like holding 2 carpark lots in a limited supply market, it is selfish and defeats the whole purpose of HDB being a shelter for those who really need it as it is used purely as an investment vehicle, which it should not be, especially at the expense of others.
Remember the purpose of HDB, it is not for intelligent investment.
Selling and making a profit by selling later is tolerated as you do not artificially create demand by so called 'owning' two properties, holding HDB and leasing out to finance private property is like holding 2 carpark lots in a limited supply market, it is selfish and defeats the whole purpose of HDB being a shelter for those who really need it as it is used purely as an investment vehicle, which it should not be, especially at the expense of others.
Remember the purpose of HDB, it is not for intelligent investment.
A little secret.... holding two properties can be for holding 2 HDB's also...
Buy another in resale and delay the selling of the first one... can be a gap of a few years... guess what? Rental rich.
Regulators
08-03-10, 13:00
another one, artificially divorce ur spouse and the two can buy 2 hdbs under single scheme. pack ur bags and go to another country and get married again and live there, whilst using rental income from the 2 hdbs to finance ur life abroad :D
A little secret.... holding two properties can be for holding 2 HDB's also...
Buy another in resale and delay the selling of the first one... can be a gap of a few years... guess what? Rental rich.
If one owns a HDB and bought a private property. Is he allowed to stay in private property and rent out his HDB? I read somewhere in HDB website that this is not allowed and the person has to stay in HDB. Is it true?
Regulators
08-03-10, 13:05
i think you have to fulfill MOP for HDB before you can lease out whole flat whether u own a pte or not. again i could be wrong coz the garmen comes out with new laws so fast...
If one owns a HDB and bought a private property. Is he allowed to stay in private property and rent out his HDB? I read somewhere in HDB website that this is not allowed and the person has to stay in HDB. Is it true?
If one owns a HDB and bought a private property. Is he allowed to stay in private property and rent out his HDB? I read somewhere in HDB website that this is not allowed and the person has to stay in HDB. Is it true?
Long long time ago cannot. Now can. After 5 and 3 years, depending on whether u bought with or without subsidy.
But must apply with HDB first, and usually get approved.
Selling and making a profit by selling later is tolerated ...Remember the purpose of HDB, it is not for intelligent investment.
why not ? selling it later for a profit is no less "evil" than profiting it through other, more intelligent, means. You are profiting from the system. If you really want to be noble, then u should return the HDB to government when you have arrived and can afford a pte pty! To say selling to profit is ok, whereas renting it for yield is evil, is completely hypocritical.
Look, HDB has evolved. 30ys ago the mission was to provide ppl with basic housing needs. Today, it's much more than that. An HDB flat has become the main source of asset for many people. If you dun acknowledge that, whatever you argue is simply akin to asking for an ideal world. HDB is moderating the market with a series of rules. There is nothing evil abt it.
another one, artificially divorce ur spouse and the two can buy 2 hdbs under single scheme. pack ur bags and go to another country and get married again and live there, whilst using rental income from the 2 hdbs to finance ur life abroad :D
I don't mind marrying someone who has that mindset...
Long long time ago cannot. Now can. After 5 and 3 years, depending on whether u bought with or without subsidy.
But must apply with HDB first, and usually get approved.
Yes this was done to ease the rental shortage of foreigners in the past but this has brought on a bigger and more hard hitting set of problems which has caused recent HDB prices to spike.
Imagine 10 years ago, if you owned HDB and you bought pte pty, when the time came when the pte pty TOPed you had to sell your HDB as you could not rent it out to finance the new pty so easily due to long MOPs, some ppl I knew even sold their prime HDBs below valuation. But ever since the MOPs were shortened, alot of intelligent investors starting renting out their HDBs to finance their condos, even if they sold they would ask sky high COVs as they could easily hold on for rental yield.
new2mondrian
08-03-10, 13:19
If one owns a HDB and bought a private property. Is he allowed to stay in private property and rent out his HDB? I read somewhere in HDB website that this is not allowed and the person has to stay in HDB. Is it true?
Actually there are many misconceptions over HDB ownership. As per current rules, if you purchase your HDB flat off the open (resale) market and do NOT enjoy a HDB concessionary loan (ie no first timer's grant from HDB and no concessionary interest rate loan of CPF+0.1%), you can:
1) Sell your flat after a 3 years MOP (minimum occupation period), which is revised from the previous MOP of 1 year; OR
2) Rent out the entire unit after a 3 years MOP
MOP excludes the time when unit is unoccupied. Trouble comes when people "illegally" sub-let the unit by locking 1 room (sometimes even the store-room) and exploit the definition of "whole unit" without fulfilling the MOP. This opens up the leeway for speculators who purchase flats for rental yield and not self-occupation (drive up demand for flats).
If you purchase the flat directly from HDB (at preferential rates) or enjoy a first timer's grant of $30-$40k from HDB, THEN you can:
1) Sell your flat after a 5 years MOP (minimum occupation period); OR
2) Rent out the entire unit after a 5 years MOP
Currently, there is no requirement that HDB owners who own private properties cannot lease out their HDB and stay in private. This is allowed by HDB. All private property(ies) ownership however, is to be made known to the HDB by way of declaration either at point of resale property purchase or through the HDB branch office. In fact, one can easily find a find a number of fellow forummers here who own (and lease) out their HDB and stay in private. This is allowed by the HDB as long as the above rules are adhered to.
Regulators
08-03-10, 13:20
I think you guys have forgotten that our garmen has all along been promoting the spirit of enterprise in our society be it the young and the old. buying something low and selling it high is a cornerstone fundamental of entrepreneurship, be it selling commodities in an efficient or non-efficient market.
why not ? selling it later for a profit is no less "evil" than profiting it through other, more intelligent, means. You are profiting from the system. If you really want to be noble, then u should return the HDB to government when you have arrived and can afford a pte pty! To say selling to profit is ok, whereas renting it for yield is evil, is completely hypocritical.
Look, HDB has evolved. 30ys ago the mission was to provide ppl with basic housing needs. Today, it's much more than that. An HDB flat has become the main source of asset for many people. If you dun acknowledge that, whatever you argue is simply akin to asking for an ideal world. HDB is moderating the market with a series of rules. There is nothing evil abt it.
why not ? selling it later for a profit is no less "evil" than profiting it through other, more intelligent, means. You are profiting from the system. If you really want to be noble, then u should return the HDB to government when you have arrived and can afford a pte pty! To say selling to profit is ok, whereas renting it for yield is evil, is completely hypocritical.
Selling for a profit later is a lesser evil as the profit is just inflation driven, buying to rent out causes artificial demand.
Look, HDB has evolved. 30ys ago the mission was to provide ppl with basic housing needs. Today, it's much more than that. An HDB flat has become the main source of asset for many people. If you dun acknowledge that, whatever you argue is simply akin to asking for an ideal world. HDB is moderating the market with a series of rules. There is nothing evil abt it.
Don't you read the papers? There is a call now to treat HDBs as homes and not just assets. I only see HDB moderating resale HDBs by increasing MOPs, which I see little benefit, as was pointed out, 3 years is a long time and with the economy being so unstable, 3 years means property becomes illiquid and not able to help in a period of downturn.
The crux of the matter is do you not admit that holding subsidized HDB to finance private property does not cause artificial inflation?
Yes this was done to ease the rental shortage of foreigners in the past but this has brought on a bigger and more hard hitting set of problems which has caused recent HDB prices to spike.
Imagine 10 years ago, if you owned HDB and you bought pte pty, when the time came when the pte pty TOPed you had to sell your HDB as you could not rent it out to finance the new pty so easily due to long MOPs, some ppl I knew even sold their prime HDBs below valuation. But ever since the MOPs were shortened, alot of intelligent investors starting renting out their HDBs to finance their condos, even if they sold they would ask sky high COVs as they could easily hold on for rental yield.
Do you think then, that with the new 3-yr MOP, developer sales today will be more hot as hdb owners *will* really be staying in the newly purchased HDB while waiting for the condo/apt to TOP. And they can and are prepared to wait for 2-3 years while staying in the HDB.
I don't see anything wrong with renting out your HDB and maximizing your yield as it is in the same vein as the typical Singaporean competitive (kiasu) mindset that brought us to where we are today.
In fact this should be commended by the gahmen for Entreprenuerism. Our young minds will be confused if on one hand you say it is good thing and on the other hand the action that translates is deemed as bad. Short of the extreme case of turning your HDB into workers dorm, the socially responsible version should preclude anything that causes problems for the neighbours. Anything else within boundaries should be acceptable.
Selling for a profit later ..... as the profit is just inflation driven
you really believe in that ? A Sengkand HDB bought 5ys ago at 240k, sold at 580k today is because of inflation only ?
The crux of the matter is do you not admit that holding subsidized HDB to finance private property does not cause artificial inflation?
No this is not the crux the matter. To me, the crux of the matter is, why you say one way of profiting from HDB policies is more evil than the other ? If your noble notion of HDB stands, no one should profit from it. If you allow profiting from HDB system, then you should respect the market. There is no such thing as "less evil". All are not fair. We just need rules to moderate the market. You cannot accuse the ones profiting on yield as evil, and accepting those profiting on capital gain as "normal".
Regulators
08-03-10, 13:44
if hdb really so noble and is only concerned with providing housing for the people, they should just sell it to the masses and when anyone wants to give up his flat, he should sell it back to hdb at a higher price pegged to the growth of the economy on a periodic basis (coz garmen says hdb property is an appreciating asset). In this way the garmen can release the flat to another needy household and the cycle goes on with everyone being happy without prices being artificially inflated.
I don't see anything wrong with renting out your HDB and maximizing your yield as it is in the same vein as the typical Singaporean competitive (kiasu) mindset that brought us to where we are today.
In fact this should be commended by the gahmen for Entreprenuerism. Our young minds will be confused if on one hand you say it is good thing and on the other hand the action that translates is deemed as bad.
Fine if it is pte pty but not OK if the commodity is HDB and is limited and highly subsidised.
If HDBs were sold on resale mkt with no subsidy or grants, then there is nothing wrong with renting out your HDB for rental yield.
See the difference?
Take A's case for eg. A sold his HDB to acquire pte property in 2004, minimum MOP for rental was 10 years then and his pte pty TOP in 2004, he had to sell, or else not enough finances to finance the pte pty.
Now a few years later, being more established A's earning increased and as a pte pty owner, A bought HDB resale for rental yield, A contributed to society by actually enriching C (distribution of wealth) and not taking any grants or subsidies and yet still enjoy rental subsidy as smart investor.
B on the other hand is HDB first time owner in 2003, gets all subsidies and grants, he bought condo and TOP in 2008, he does not sell, instead he rents out to finance condo.
B's example is not equal to A, although both hold 2 properties, as B never enriched or redistributed his wealth to C and B instead took the subsidies and grants of HDB of D.
Of course B looks smarter, but think about the society as a whole, who is more valuable to society A or B?
So which is lesser or two evils?
you really believe in that ? A Sengkand HDB bought 5ys ago at 240k, sold at 580k today is because of inflation only ?
No this is not the crux the matter. To me, the crux of the matter is, why you say one way of profiting from HDB policies is more evil than the other ? If your noble notion of HDB stands, no one should profit from it. If you allow profiting from HDB system, then you should respect the market. There is no such thing as "less evil". All are not fair. We just need rules to moderate the market. You cannot accuse the ones profiting on yield as evil, and accepting those profiting on capital gain as "normal".
See my reply to 1976.
See my reply to 1976.
it still smells of hypocrisy. really. ;)
like regulators said, you either get very noble all the way, and dun profit from it, or you play dirty. dun tell me the "degree" of dirtiness makes a difference. Like stealing $50 is better than stealing $5000 ? You profited from the system, period.
Looks like this discussion is going no where, so shall we call it a day and agree to disagree ? :) (bonus: you can have the last word :) )
it still smells of hypocrisy. really. ;)
like regulators said, you either get very noble all the way, and dun profit from it, or you play dirty. dun tell me the "degree" of dirtiness makes a difference. Like stealing $50 is better than stealing $5000 ? You profited from the system, period.
Looks like this discussion is going no where, so shall we call it a day and agree to disagree ? :) (bonus: you can have the last word :) )
OK lah. :)
HDB has created an environment for home sellers to thrive, i.e. future valuations are always based on past transacted prices in the area (which will always and almost certainly be higher each time)..
would like to add another point to it, new flats' prices will be based on surrounding resale prices but with a discount :p
dont even need to look further at surrounding flats, within Pinnacle itself Mr L case. 37 floors down but 28% up in price.
let's see what happens when interest rates are up. Sit tight :spliff:
would like to add another point to it, new flats' prices will be based on surrounding resale prices but with a discount :p
dont even need to look further at surrounding flats, within Pinnacle itself Mr L case. 37 floors down but 28% up in price.
let's see what happens when interest rates are up. Sit tight :spliff:
Yes..worst case scenario for those (owning both HDB and private property) who rely on HDB rental income to finance their loan for pte property..e.g. high leverage, is
1) Interest rate goes up and
2) Supply outweights demand resulting in oversupply and unit not rented out
How could it be that if you "had just exited the mkt 3 mths late," you're "probably dead by now"? :confused:
Leedon Heights was en blocked in April 2007 to GuocoLand for $835 million, so each of the 314 units would have fetched $2.66 million, on average.
Instead, it should be that if you "had not exited the mkt at all," you "would make even more money by now"? :cheers1:
This is another example of the benefits of Propertism Rule No. 1 - Properties should only be bought. Not sold. Unless through En Bloc. Then quickly get a replacement property.
Another benefit of believing in Propertism, the belief that property prices will always go up in the long term, is that there is no need to be afraid of "speculation" or "burnt flesh".
For example, 1981 was a highly speculative year when "RIDICULOUS PRICES" were set.
See how "RIDICULOUS" some of these prices were, e.g. 2,400 sq ft Chen Yuan Apartment (the former site of Urbana at 1 River Valley Close) asking $800,000 or $333 psf.
RIDICULOUS!!!
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn211/jlrx_bucket/RidiculousPrices19810418.jpg
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn211/jlrx_bucket/PropertyClassifieds19810421.jpg
I sold both my leedon and tulip condo to the same HK investor (leaseback the tulip from him) in 1996. If I had practiced your stupid nonsense, I wouldn't have made my 1st mio which allows me to rollover and purchase a few properties in 1998, and that is excluding the 10 yrs of opportunity costs forgone until leedon was enbloc in 2007 if i had held on to it. And not forgetting, Tulip is still looking for a buyer now as we speak. So I'm sorry, you are just talking rubbish.
I sold both my leedon and tulip condo to the same HK investor (leaseback the tulip from him) in 1996. If I had practiced your stupid nonsense, I wouldn't have made my 1st mio which allows me to rollover and purchase a few properties in 1998, and that is excluding the 10 yrs of opportunity costs forgone until leedon was enbloc in 2007 if i had held on to it. And not forgetting, Tulip is still looking for a buyer now as we speak. So I'm sorry, you are just talking rubbish.
Yes agreed, that is called first mover advantage, which in property, is an even more potent weapon than holding on. I remember telling jlrx that in the CK Tang thread, where he mentioned how the Tang family is now worth much more as they held on to the property in Orchard Rd, but if you compare that with FEO's NTF, he sold Lucky Plaza and Far East Plaza and rolled over many more times than the Tang family and is now considered one of the richest men in Singapore, whereas the Tangs are just sitting on paper gains.
The Government's intention is actually quite clear:
SPEECH BY MR LEE KUAN YEW, MINISTER MENTOR, AT THE KEY HANDOVER CEREMONY FOR THE PINNACLE@DUXTON, 13 DECEMBER 2009, 9:00 AM AT PINNACLE@DUXTON
HDB flat as an Asset
We moved to a system where each HDB flat is priced differently to reflect its real value. We cannot price a new flat in Punggol or Tanjong Pagar the same, because when they are resold, we know there will be a tremendous difference in price. From the 1980s, we moved towards a market-based system. By liberalizing the resale market and allowing HDB prices to move in tandem with the economy, we unlocked the value of HDB flats to allow citizens to share in the fruits http://www.iconarchive.com/icons/fixicon/market/48/fruits-icon.pngof the nation’s growth. Home ownership of a HDB flat is a store of value that can be monetized when needs be.
So who are the people who are unhappy about HDB prices?
Could it be Granny Yeo?
http://www.asiaone.com/migrated/wdu/gardening/greenhavens/gallery/pics/20070623_001c.jpg
Housewife Yeo Wee Geck, 85, is one. The grandmother of six lives with her only daughter and their maid in a five-room HDB flat in Marine Parade. She bought the 20th-storey unit in the early 1970s for $30,000. Today, buyers are willing to pay $500,000.
Definitely not the 82% of the population who stay in HDB, like Granny Yeo, or her only daughter who will one day inherit the flat, or her maid who will one day return to the Philippines or Indonesia.
Therefore, the only people who are "unhappy" are those with a big axe to grind with the Government.
http://www.wotif.com/webdata/image/promotion/big_axe.jpg
They are just trying to work up resentment so that they can take over the country.
The Government's intention is actually quite clear:
SPEECH BY MR LEE KUAN YEW, MINISTER MENTOR, AT THE KEY HANDOVER CEREMONY FOR THE PINNACLE@DUXTON, 13 DECEMBER 2009, 9:00 AM AT PINNACLE@DUXTON
HDB flat as an Asset
We moved to a system where each HDB flat is priced differently to reflect its real value. We cannot price a new flat in Punggol or Tanjong Pagar the same, because when they are resold, we know there will be a tremendous difference in price. From the 1980s, we moved towards a market-based system. By liberalizing the resale market and allowing HDB prices to move in tandem with the economy, we unlocked the value of HDB flats to allow citizens to share in the fruits http://www.iconarchive.com/icons/fixicon/market/48/fruits-icon.pngof the nation’s growth. Home ownership of a HDB flat is a store of value that can be monetized when needs be.
So who are the people who are unhappy about HDB prices?
Could it be Granny Yeo?
http://www.asiaone.com/migrated/wdu/gardening/greenhavens/gallery/pics/20070623_001c.jpg
Housewife Yeo Wee Geck, 85, is one. The grandmother of six lives with her only daughter and their maid in a five-room HDB flat in Marine Parade. She bought the 20th-storey unit in the early 1970s for $30,000. Today, buyers are willing to pay $500,000.
Definitely not the 82% of the population who stay in HDB, like Granny Yeo, or her only daughter who will one day inherit the flat, or her maid who will one day return to the Philippines or Indonesia.
Therefore, the only people who are "unhappy" are those with a big axe to grind with the Government.
http://www.wotif.com/webdata/image/promotion/big_axe.jpg
They are just trying to work up resentment so that they can take over the country.
The only ppl who will resent the high HDB prices are either too young or not even born yet, pity them, don't mock them.
The only ppl who will resent the high HDB prices are either too young or not even born yet, pity them, don't mock them.
Then who are those "COMPLAINERS" who have been making so much noise about HDB flat prices, if they are too young or have not even been born yet?
To view the current debates on HDB prices in perspective, read the following letter to the Straits Times forums on 2 Jul 1980.
The writer, who called himself "NO LONGER AFFORD", wrote "The Housing Board has been complimented for its achievements in public housing over the last decade ... However, housing provided by the HDB today is no longer cheap ..."
Kindly look at the table below (dated 24 Jun 1980) and can someone explain why, e.g. a New Town at that time, such as Clementi's 3-Room Improved flat, increasing from $13,600 to $16,400 (an increase of $2,800) makes it "no longer cheap".? :confused:
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn211/jlrx_bucket/HDBNotAffordable19800702.jpg
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn211/jlrx_bucket/HDBPrices19800624.jpg
Then who are those "COMPLAINERS" who have been making so much noise about HDB flat prices, if they are too young or have not even been born yet?
Then who are the losers in the current generation's gains in increase in prices?
Those who "ai pee ai qee" and want to buy at cheapest price (for own stay or sell for big profit later) or those who shorted properties (hoping to make big profits later) or those who only know how to complain but take no action or those whose parents didn't plan for them to bestow them with a property (instead leave behind cash for them which becomes more & more worthless) when they grow up.
Then who are the losers in the current generation's gains in increase in prices?
Those who "ai pee ai qee" and want to buy at cheapest price (for own stay or sell for big profit later) or those who shorted properties (hoping to make big profits later) or those who only know how to complain but take no action or those whose parents didn't plan for them to bestow them with a property (instead leave behind cash for them which becomes more & more worthless) when they grow up.
Ok yes to some extent.
...And not forgetting, Tulip is still looking for a buyer now as we speak. So I'm sorry, you are just talking rubbish.
dun like that lah ! can't u see jlrx is injecting some fun into all this ? :) I for one really enjoy his pictorial illustrations. Keep it up man ! :)
Those who "ai pee ai qee" and want to buy at cheapest price... or those who only know how to complain but take no action...
exactly. Look if you are not smart enough to profit from an up cycle of property market, or stocks, or whatever investment, the 1st thing to blame is the government ? "for not taking care of me" ?? So you are just expected to spoon fed to the university, graduated, and must be guaranteed a job (if not complain too many FT/PR taking ur job), and guaranteed an "affordable" house, preferably near town with all amenities nearby, etc. If not, wow, big problem, the government is not doing the job right. PAP owes you this and that. :cool:
Cannot be like that lah! A market economy, albeit not 100%, still requires you to work hard (and smart). If you can't even profit from the current HDB policy, or the spectacular pty run in 2007, or the long bullish stock market years prior to 2008, you really have yourself to blame.
The only countries where you dun expect to work anything and expect to meet your every life aspiration is oil rich Brunei/Abu Dhabi, or if you want to go philosophical, a true blue communist society (where Karl Marx said every one only works what he can, and gets what he needs)
Yes..worst case scenario for those (owning both HDB and private property) who rely on HDB rental income to finance their loan for pte property..e.g. high leverage, is
1) Interest rate goes up and
2) Supply outweights demand resulting in oversupply and unit not rented out
then it's shopping time ;)
Regulators
09-03-10, 10:55
i somehow agree that propertism is a load of bullcrap. How can ptys be bought n nt sold when there is money to make in an upcycle? People buy cheap n sell hi so they get to upgrade in live in a better plc each time nt hold on to sme title n smiling at paper gains
dun like that lah ! can't u see jlrx is injecting some fun into all this ? :) I for one really enjoy his pictorial illustrations. Keep it up man ! :)
exactly. Look if you are not smart enough to profit from an up cycle of property market, or stocks, or whatever investment, the 1st thing to blame is the government ? "for not taking care of me" ?? So you are just expected to spoon fed to the university, graduated, and must be guaranteed a job (if not complain too many FT/PR taking ur job), and guaranteed an "affordable" house, preferably near town with all amenities nearby, etc. If not, wow, big problem, the government is not doing the job right. PAP owes you this and that. :cool:
Cannot be like that lah! A market economy, albeit not 100%, still requires you to work hard (and smart). If you can't even profit from the current HDB policy, or the spectacular pty run in 2007, or the long bullish stock market years prior to 2008, you really have yourself to blame.
The only countries where you dun expect to work anything and expect to meet your every life aspiration is oil rich Brunei/Abu Dhabi, or if you want to go philosophical, a true blue communist society (where Karl Marx said every one only works what he can, and gets what he needs)
Let me try to inject some sanity into this idealogy called Propertism.
It is wrong to think that properties are to be bought ONLY and not sold. It is also not right to think that properties are to be traded like changing clothes.
Compare one who have kept his sole flat for 25 years faithfully. Sure, value goes up during that time. Now compare to another who bought and sold and upgraded to other properties and scaled up. Plenty of evidences around to tell us that the latter would have ended up the far richer of the two.
As we all know, property moves in cycles. Windows of opportunties for buying and selling are littered all over - just need to look for it. Also depends on whether you are hungry (not greed) or contented (complacent and satisfied with life)...
You decide which sides you wanna be. It all depends on your spirit of enterprise, financial savviness, risk appetite and luck.
i somehow agree that propertism is a load of bullcrap. How can ptys be bought n nt sold when there is money to make in an upcycle? People buy cheap n sell hi so they get to upgrade in live in a better plc each time nt hold on to sme title n smiling at paper gains
You mean buy low, sell high? wow shocker :)
Only problem with property is selling takes so long. Getting out around the peak can be a tough , and buying back into a falling market nerve racking but you can potentially be much better off if you can pull it off.
Also depends on whether unit is for own stay or if you have multiple units.
dun like that lah ! can't u see jlrx is injecting some fun into all this ? :) I for one really enjoy his pictorial illustrations. Keep it up man ! :)
I for one am starting to suspect that jlrx's take on 'Propertism' is actually satire brought to the highest level - i.e. he's being sarcastic all this while wrt our gahmen policies.
Regulators
09-03-10, 14:01
i think he bought some properties during the high coz propertism is only relevant to such people. Propertists are basically wave watchers, not wave riders...:doh:
I for one am starting to suspect that jlrx's take on 'Propertism' is actually satire brought to the highest level - i.e. he's being sarcastic all this while wrt our gahmen policies.
Give jlrx some credit for propertism, there is no real right and wrong.
Some ppl sold their properties in the past but now cannot afford to buy similar type, so not all who sold could make gains and upgrade or roll.
Some luckier ones sold and cashed out and rolled and made even more money.
I sold both my leedon and tulip condo to the same HK investor (leaseback the tulip from him) in 1996. If I had practiced your stupid nonsense, I wouldn't have made my 1st mio which allows me to rollover and purchase a few properties in 1998, and that is excluding the 10 yrs of opportunity costs forgone until leedon was enbloc in 2007 if i had held on to it. And not forgetting, Tulip is still looking for a buyer now as we speak. So I'm sorry, you are just talking rubbish.
The above transactions, i.e. selling during the Singapore market peak of 1996 and then buying again after the market crashed in 1998, entail a skill that many believe exist, but which actually does not - the ability to forecast property price movements.
It was just pure luck.
If such skills had existed, then GIC, which hired talents each paid more than $10 million p.a. (according to MM Lee) would not have sunk US$5.4 billion into New York real estate, Peter Cooper Village and Stuyvesant Town, just before it sank.
Here we are talking about talents of the best, and very best kind. Yet they were as blind as bats. http://admin.tibiaml.com/images/items/ldzawtb9Bat_Decoration.gif http://www.kiteplans.org/img/tags/bat.pnghttp://www.how-to-draw-cartoons-online.com/image-files/cartoon-bat-link.gif
The only reason for the rise in your fortunes, ironically, was Propertism - the belief that property prices will always go up in the long term, simply because paper money will eventually lose all its value!
However, you were just trading this property for that, selling here, buying there. To me, that is a waste of time.
There is no way anyone can know (except with the benefit of hindsight), which property is going up vis-a-vis which, or which country is going down vis-a-vis which.
It's like children jumping around on a rising escalator.
Since the escalator (i.e. property prices) is going up anyway, just stay still and let it move you up.
On the other hand, jumping around from one step to another (even though still going up), entails risks such as being stuck in the gap, and ending up as one of those "Straits Times forum complainers" writing letters complaining of high property prices.
http://www.wisebread.com/files/fruganomics/u17/Untitled-1.jpg
The above transactions, i.e. selling during the Singapore market peak of 1996 and then buying again after the market crashed in 1998, entail a skill that many believe exist, but which actually does not - the ability to forecast property price movements.
It was just pure luck.
If such skills had existed, then GIC, which hired talents each paid more than $10 million p.a. (according to MM Lee) would not have sunk US$5.4 billion into New York real estate, Peter Cooper Village and Stuyvesant Town, just before it sank.
Here we are talking about talents of the best, and very best kind. Yet they were as blind as bats. http://admin.tibiaml.com/images/items/ldzawtb9Bat_Decoration.gif http://www.kiteplans.org/img/tags/bat.pnghttp://www.how-to-draw-cartoons-online.com/image-files/cartoon-bat-link.gif
The only reason for the rise in your fortunes, ironically, was Propertism - the belief that property prices will always go up in the long term, simply because paper money will eventually lose all its value!
However, you were just trading this property for that, selling here, buying there. To me, that is a waste of time.
There is no way anyone can know (except with the benefit of hindsight), which property is going up vis-a-vis which, or which country is going down vis-a-vis which.
It's like children jumping around on a rising escalator.
Since the escalator (i.e. property prices) is going up anyway, just stay still and let it move you up.
On the other hand, jumping around from one step to another (even though still going up), entails risks such as being stuck in the gap, and ending up as one of those "Straits Times forum complainers" writing letters complaining of high property prices.
http://www.wisebread.com/files/fruganomics/u17/Untitled-1.jpg
hahaha, I can't believe you actually managed to make me laugh with your escalator analogy on the kids jumping, i give you credit for that :cheers1:
On hindsight, actually i think i was too reckless to have sold both my properties. I should have kept 1 at least, the one over my head. I admit I was fortunate, not so much foresight, and a strong gut feel that things were running ahead too fast and decided that enough is enough. But for investment properties, i think its necessary to cash out to realize the profits (profits gain vs rental yield). But to avoid losing the value of money, one should always stay invested with the profits gained, be it physical property, stocks or alternative investments.
To view the current debates on HDB prices in perspective, read the following letter to the Straits Times forums on 2 Jul 1980.
The writer, who called himself "NO LONGER AFFORD", wrote "The Housing Board has been complimented for its achievements in public housing over the last decade ... However, housing provided by the HDB today is no longer cheap ..."
Kindly look at the table below (dated 24 Jun 1980) and can someone explain why, e.g. a New Town at that time, such as Clementi's 3-Room Improved flat, increasing from $13,600 to $16,400 (an increase of $2,800) makes it "no longer cheap".? :confused:
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn211/jlrx_bucket/HDBNotAffordable19800702.jpg
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn211/jlrx_bucket/HDBPrices19800624.jpg
If this writer was just renting flat,from hdb all this while just bcoz he doesnt want to lose the extra $2800.. Who's the biggest loser in the end.??
hahaha, I can't believe you actually managed to make me laugh with your escalator analogy on the kids jumping, i give you credit for that :cheers1:
On hindsight, actually i think i was too reckless to have sold both my properties. I should have kept 1 at least, the one over my head. I admit I was fortunate, not so much foresight, and a strong gut feel that things were running ahead too fast and decided that enough is enough. But for investment properties, i think its necessary to cash out to realize the profits (profits gain vs rental yield). But to avoid losing the value of money, one should always stay invested with the profits gained, be it physical property, stocks or alternative investments.
That's the idea behind the whole Propertism idea - staying invested.
I think a lot of people here have misunderstood my statement Properties should only be bought. Not sold.
What I mean is "Properties" as a class of investment. Not the specific property that you are holding.
If you want to sell a property, then make sure you quickly buy a replacement property (although I consider this to be a meaningless exercise because we won't know which property will outperform another).
I have also sold a property before, via en bloc to a developer, but quickly bought a replacement property (fortunately so).
What one should never do is to sell a property and then keep the money in the bank, because paper money loses its value very rapidly, or else one may end up like this writer.
If this writer was just renting flat,from hdb all this while just bcoz he doesnt want to lose the extra $2800.. Who's the biggest loser in the end.??
That's the idea behind the whole Propertism idea - staying invested.
I think a lot of people here have misunderstood my statement Properties should only be bought. Not sold.
What I mean is "Properties" as a class of investment. Not the specific property that you are holding.
If you want to sell a property, then make sure you quickly buy a replacement property (although I consider this to be a meaningless exercise because we won't know which property will outperform another).
I have also sold a property before, via en bloc to a developer, but quickly bought a replacement property (fortunately so).
What one should never do is to sell a property and then keep the money in the bank, because paper money loses its value very rapidly, or else one may end up like this writer.
Yes,i quickly bought replacement unit,when i sold to cash out..
No point to preached the propertism idea further.. Coz the smart had understand this meaning and stay vested, while those who dont understand and just hoping to make quick bucks by wishing to buy at lows. And complaining all these while..
Propertism idea will never go into them,and therefore they will never be "THERE"
No point to preached the propertism idea further.. Coz the smart had understand this meaning and stay vested, while those who dont understand and just hoping to make quick bucks by wishing to buy at lows. And complaining all these while..
The Price of Freedom is Eternal Vigilance
The enemies of Propertism will never rest, hence I must continuously sprinkle Holy Water http://www.24hr-slots.co.uk/Net_Entertainment/images/Blood_Suckers/Holy_Water.jpg to cast away these demons http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/uncyclopedia/images/1/15/Fire_demon.gif.
Read the following letter to the Straits Times forums dated 23 Jun 1981:
"Only govt can bring property prices down" - "Property prices have gone up beyond anyone's expectations and short of government action prices will not come down ... :scared-5:
Imposing a ban (at least temporary, say for three years) on non-residents buying houses, flats and condominiums; :scared-4:
Making it obligatory for solicitors to give to the Controller of Income Tax the name of every person in whose name an agreement is entered into (including every sub-sale) for the purchase of a house or unit; :scared-3:
Probing into malpractices by developers who use fictitious names to book units for speculation; :scared-4:
Probing into non-residents who bought and are buying houses using nominee citizens; :scared-5:
Every citizen who buys a house or unit should sign a staturoy declaration to the effect that the property was purchased for himself out of his own funds; :scared-4:
The banks which give loans and overdrafts should certify that the borrower/purchaser and no outsider arranged the finance. :scared-3:
I have every confidence that prices will fall to pre-escalation level once government takes firm action along these lines. :scared-1:
A VERY WORRIED CITIZEN"
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn211/jlrx_bucket/BringDownPropertyPrices19810623.jpg
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn211/jlrx_bucket/PropertyClassifieds19810421.jpg
If-These-Are-Escalated Prices
21 Apr 1981 - District 11 Mandalay Court Lower Penthouse 2,700 sq ft asking $585,000 ($217 psf).
Then-What-Do-You-Call-These Prices?
29 Jan 2010 - District 11 The Ansley (formerly Mandalay Court) 1,302 sq ft transacted $1,520,000 ($1,167 psf).
As in every religion, there will be some who are converted http://images4.pocket-lint.com/images/1wYx/Chrysler-300c-crd-touring-car-0.jpg; some who can never be http://img.webring.com/r/s/ss100/navbarlogo; but some who are convertible http://a3.twimg.com/profile_images/201576285/twitter_GT_normal.jpg .
I am preaching to convert the convertible http://www.fallingpixel.com/products/8672/thumbs/BMW%206%20Convertible%2001.jpg.
Urrhmmm....
Grand Master, to worship "Propertism", do we need to burn lots of hell notes ($$) and offer frequent prayers to the Heavenly King Mah? This way, by practicing faithfully over time, we gain assurance of getting answers to our wishes? :beats-me-man:
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