I think other than people who play STI futures / ETFs, nobody really cares how STI index is calculated since it is as useless to most people as PPI index.
Originally Posted by hopeful
Global recession is coming....
I think other than people who play STI futures / ETFs, nobody really cares how STI index is calculated since it is as useless to most people as PPI index.
Senior
nevermind, we shall use all 3 measures then:
1) PPI by URA
2) the NUS one which only has Core and Non Core
&
3) Park Infinia (1864.6psf) average of top 10psf (since teddy is such a fan of psf) vs Carabelle (977.6psf) average of top 10psf. at the moment Park Infinia is 90.732% more expensive than Carabelle. let's check back again on 18th Dec 2011 and see if its narrowed or widened.
Exalted
sometimes by knowing too much technicalities no-no....
everything also scare to invest....SG govt bond BEST
Senior
just for comparison purposes, the most recent 10 transactions average:
Park Infinia (1817.9psf) vs Carabelle (951.8psf)
The premium is similar at 91%.
personally, i like this measure the best, a showdown between stalin and teddy.
Senior
Even a recent caveat for 99LH Southbank at D7 (near lavender) achieving $1700psf for a 614sqft unit. Units with good location can still move.
Go for Smallest Unit
Gold is everywhere, its nice to hear about cool down to avert a over heated state. All happy in the end, rich still make money and poor can still hope. A very delicate balance.just for comparison purposes, the most recent 10 transactions average:
Park Infinia (1817.9psf) vs Carabelle (951.8psf)
The premium is similar at 91%.
personally, i like this measure the best, a showdown between staling and teddy.
Junior
I like duchess residences vs. carabelle. it you guys use this pair for your wager, carabelle is sure to win. duchess residences is a sure loser.just for comparison purposes, the most recent 10 transactions average:
Park Infinia (1817.9psf) vs Carabelle (951.8psf)
The premium is similar at 91%.
personally, i like this measure the best, a showdown between stalin and teddy.
Newbie
Even with this wide gap, I will still prefer Park Infinia to Carabelle. Carabelle loses out in terms of location, view, district prestige and possibly even quality. Will you go for a Prada Infinia or a Coach Carabelle?just for comparison purposes, the most recent 10 transactions average:
Park Infinia (1817.9psf) vs Carabelle (951.8psf)
The premium is similar at 91%.
personally, i like this measure the best, a showdown between stalin and teddy.
Bricks & Mortar
Can't generalise and pin-point single reason, have to look into details. If u look at those days, foreign investors/buyers besides the traditional buyers of Indonesians, Malaysians, also include rich Arabs, even Russians and Eastern Europeans- (some of them still licking their wounds for investment in their own countries, but slowly coming back). Now PRC segment is growing as curbs in their own countries getting more. Indian investors also coming...
Senior
yup, that would be a personal preference.as forumers have gotten a bit hot about CCR vs OCR price appreciation potential in 2011, i guess this magic 91% makes for interesting comparison just for the fun of it.
Senior
i think the projects are a bit too different to compare. duchess has much fewer units (thus, lower transactions too), is still not TOP yet (or has it?)and the units are much bigger. but if u r confident on carabelle, i don't see why it can't beat Park Infinia in terms of % price appreciation over 1 year.
Newbie
Of course Carabelle is built by a HDB developer with quality problems even with HDB flats. How to compare? Quality is way way below...Carabelle is Coach? More like fake Coach from China...
Senior
neither
prada and coach are the new favorites of PRCs so stay out
channel and hermes are the IN brand now
until the PRCs start to move in ...
Global recession is coming....
I thought LV is the favorite of PRCs
You can see long Q at the entrance of LV shop everywhere nowaday..........
Junior
Actually i pray for Crabelle to sell $1500psf ..... all owner in CCR/RCR/HDB also will hope so.
U think DR will sell how much? U guys so silly one. Gum bleed teeth also jia luk ma. Water come in all boats also rise wat! If staglin got 100m u think he need u to teach him buy where meh? we all bound by limited resources ma and different priorities ma.
i personally feel its silly to think OCR will continue to chong and CCR will be stagnant. Where got water come in, my boat rise, other's boat dont rise cos boat more heavy.....
Maybe different pple definition of CCR is different? It can be from $1400- $4000psf development.
Newbie
You are wrong... I don't think you know your brands well.
Coach is too cheap for PRC.
Prada is too avant garde and ultra-trendy and logo too tiny for PRC.
The favourite of PRC are Gucci and LV, because the logo everywhere, cannot miss one. Their thinking is, since spend money liao, must show off until gao pun. Something like teddybear logic like that, you know.
Chanel also starting to interest PRC liao... Watch out.
Don't think PRC will ever get into Hermes. Too understated.
Junior
misread post
Last edited by hopeful; 18-12-10 at 07:32.
Junior
So is it agreeable to all to take the following?
1) PPI by URA
2) the NUS one which only has Core and Non Core
3) Park Infinia average of top 10psf vs Carabelle average of top 10psf. let's check back again on 18th Dec 2011.
The outcome
1) gap between CCR and OCR same ( +-2% margin)
2) gap between CCR and OCR narrow (more than 2%)
3) gap between CCR and OCR widen (more than 2%)
4) Park Infinia % gain same as Carabelle % gain (+-2% margin)
5) Park Infinia % gain more than Carabelle % gain (more than 2% gain difference)
6) Carabelle % gain more than Park Infinia % gain (more than 2% gain difference)
Can we start polling? or does other bros want to modify, give input etc?
Junior
Even the billionaires have financial advisers.
Straits Times Singapore, 2 Dec, 2010, Thursday
RIDOUT PROPERTY BATTLE
Court clears sale of $37m bungalow
Judge rules against group that claimed it had $20m deal to buy property
By Gabriel Chen
The purchase of the Ridout Road bungalow is expected to be concluded some time this month. But EC Investment Holding has filed an appeal to overturn the sale. — ST PHOTO: CAROLINE CHIA A COURT has ruled against a group who claimed they had a deal to buy a Ridout Road bungalow for $20 million. The move paves the way for the owner, Indonesian-born businessman Agus Anwar, to sell the house for $37 million to a banker who served the late Nina Wang, who was Asia’s richest woman.
Two parties – EC Investment Holding, owned by Mr Tan Koo Chuan of Yi Kai Group and Mr Melvin Poh of Fission Group, and former Goldman Sachs banker Thomas Chan – were fighting for control of the house at 39A Ridout Road that Mr Agus bought in 2006.
But three months ago, the High Court ordered the sale of the property in the upmarket Holland district to Mr Chan for $37 million.
The purchase of the two-storey property by Mr Chan – which sits on a 40,600 sq ft plot, complete with a tennis court and swimming pool in the good-class bungalow area – is expected to be concluded some time this month.
But the story may not be over yet. EC Investment Holding has filed an appeal to overturn the sale with the hearing expected to be held in March, sources say.
Mr Agus originally acquired the 40,600 sq ft house for $28 million in 2006. He had paid $11 million and the stamp duty of over $744,000 from his own funds, and taking the balance of $17 million from a $30 million facility extended to him by Hong Leong Finance.
However, the financial crisis hit his finances and, on May 16, 2008, Hong Leong Finance recalled the loan and terminated the facility after Mr Agus failed to make his payments.
‘Agus Anwar was coming under increasing financial pressure. His investments were then badly hit by the global financial crisis sparked off by the collapse of Lehman Brothers in September 2008,’ according to a High Court judgment dated September this year.
EC Investment Holding claims that in the terms of a deal dated June 8 last year, it was granted an option to buy Mr Agus’ property for $20 million, in exchange for a $1.5 million option fee. Mr Chan also obtained an option to buy the property for $37 million on Oct 8 last year.
Justice Quentin Loh, in his September judgment, noted that EC Investment knew before it entered into the transaction that Mr Agus was desperate for a short-term loan.
He said that EC Investment Holding’s Mr Tan ‘feigned ignorance on many things and kept up the simple mantra that he was only interested in property, smelt a good deal and went after it’.
Based on the evidence, the court did not grant EC Investment’s request that the sale be completed.
EC’s Yi Kai and Fission are behind the development Alexis along Alexandra Road.
As for Mr Chan, Justice Loh said that ‘everyone accepted that he had innocently walked straight into this melee’. Mr Chan had wanted to buy a bungalow and after being introduced to the property, acted decisively in putting down an option fee. He did not meet Mr Agus at all and was unaware of the earlier option.
Mr Agus, said to be in his late 50s and now a Singaporean, is no stranger to court battles.
In January, he was ordered by the High Court to make good on the payment of a $10.5 million loan he received two years ago from an investment firm while in financial difficulty.
Mr Agus was once a significant shareholder in two Indonesian banks, PT Bank Kredit Asia and PT Bank Pelita, but there was a run on these banks during the 1997 financial meltdown and they were taken over by the Indonesian Bank Restructuring Agency.
Mr Agus came to Singapore in 2000 and became a citizen in 2004 – the same year he made headlines for allegedly owing the Indonesian government 3.2 trillion rupiah, or $467 million.
The $37 million will help him clear more of his debt – as of the middle of this year, he had personal available assets of nearly $60 million, but owed creditors $103.3 million.
But, with March’s appeal hearing on the horizon, the wrangle over the Ridout property could drag on.
Last edited by hopeful; 18-12-10 at 07:45.
Junior
This is to Teddy - why Indonesians buy expensive condos, bungalows in Singapore.
And that's why up to now, Singapore has no extradition treaty with Indonesia.
and to all - That's why Orchard Road condos can be half-empty. It is just a place to park their money
If the poor owes the banks, the poor are in trouble if they refuse to pay.
If the rich owes the banks, the banks are in trouble if they refuse to pay.
Last edited by hopeful; 18-12-10 at 07:49.
Newbie
Precisely!! Chanel and Hermes represent the luxury high-end condos in Orchard and River Valley. But there will always be market for the LV, Gucci condos as well because they are slightly more affordable by many people. So will you prefer to join us to buy these or to buy from a basket of cheap bags in neighbourhood town centres?
Global recession is coming....
I thought u r referring to yourself- like to show off n pursue blanded stuffs...
Junior
How many of us here actually know our branded stuff?
How many of us can tell the difference between genuine and Grade A copy at 1 metre away?
How many of us can tell the difference between genuine and Grade A copy at hand inspection?
How many of us can tell the difference between moissanite, lab grown and natural diamond?
Global recession is coming....
Finally, you have also acknowledged and pointed out the fact that "That's why Orchard Road condos can be half-empty. It is just a place to park their money
Your posts should be specifically directed to Wild Falcon and Stalingrad etc questioning that since Orchard Road property half-empty and some yield not good means prices sure crash! Is that so? You have enlightened them on these!
And I like your statement:
"If the poor owes the banks, the poor are in trouble if they refuse to pay.
If the rich owes the banks, the banks are in trouble if they refuse to pay."
Look at the Suites@Central 30 units buyers, cannot pay up and developer still have to give him grace period, end up he make so much money because prices suddenly shoot up while he was selling!
This is to Teddy - why Indonesians buy expensive condos, bungalows in Singapore.
And that's why up to now, Singapore has no extradition treaty with Indonesia.
and to all - That's why Orchard Road condos can be half-empty. It is just a place to park their money
If the poor owes the banks, the poor are in trouble if they refuse to pay.
If the rich owes the banks, the banks are in trouble if they refuse to pay.
Junior
you are on. I will wager $300 on carabelle. who is the banker (like in monopoly) that will keep the money for us.
Junior
To those who are in the dark:........
Look at the Suites@Central 30 units buyers, cannot pay up and developer still have to give him grace period, end up he make so much money because prices suddenly shoot up while he was selling!
This is the article:
Straits Times, 9 May 2009
May 09 2009
Developer says: time to pay up Buyer says: give me more time
ANOTHER buyer who purchased luxury condominiums in bulk under the deferred payment scheme is now having trouble paying up.
Keppel Land said yesterday that an Indonesian investor who bought 51 units at The Suites @ Central in Devonshire Road has asked for more time to cough up the final payments.
The investor paid $1,806 per sq ft (psf) for the freehold apartments, which were bought in June 2007, Keppel said in a filing to the Singapore Exchange. It would not disclose the total price of the units or whether the investor is an individual or an institution, such as a company or a fund.
But a check of the Urban Redevelopment Authority’s (URA) Realis caveats shows that a series of 51 units were sold at that time for a total of $127 million. The units were not bought in a single block and do not appear to make up entire floors, but span the second to the 33rd floors.
The units were bought under the deferred payment scheme. This means the buyer made a downpayment of 20 per cent of the purchase price and then deferred the rest of the payments until the apartments were completed.
The Suites @ Central was completed in February, but the buyer failed to pay up on time.
Two other buyers, both Singaporeans, also missed the payment deadline, Keppel said. One had bought two apartments in the fully-sold project; the other had bought three.
Keppel has received payment for the other 101 apartments in the 157-unit project, which is a 60-40 joint venture between Keppel and Chip Eng Seng.
The Indonesian buyer has asked for an extension of the payment deadline in order to ‘arrange funds for payments’, Keppel said.
The developer has agreed to a six-month extension starting from yesterday, but is requiring the Indonesian buyer to pay $500,000 per month during the extension period. The first payment has already been received, Keppel said.
Other developers have also recently reported problems collecting payments for units they sold under the deferred payment scheme.
MCL Land ran into trouble last month with the buyer of its Fernhill condominium off Stevens Road. The buyer, reported to be a company called Concordia Overseas controlled by a Hong Kong resident named Chan Ki, had purchased all 25 units in the project and managed to resell five soon after.
But when the time came to make payment for the 20 units it still owned, Concordia missed a few deadlines. It subsequently managed to resell 19 units in time to meet the final deadline, but reportedly at a loss.
The price Concordia paid for the units was $1,410 psf, but the Business Times reported that it fetched only $1,180 psf for the 19 units it resold.
Market watchers said that if the Indonesian buyer of the 51 units at The Suites @ Central has to offload the apartments in a hurry, it may end up making a loss.
The average price of apartments at the project has fallen to about $1,470 psf, according to five caveats lodged for units that have been sold so far this year.
More buyers with payment problems could surface in the coming months, as the property slump coincides with the fallout from the deferred payment scheme, which was scrapped in October 2007.
Some 29,250 homes planned for completion between last year and 2013 were offered with the deferred payment scheme, the URA revealed last year. Analysts have estimated that about 14,000 were actually sold under the scheme.
But even if a handful of buyers default, it may not be statistically significant, noted Mr Nicholas Mak, director of research and consultancy at Knight Frank.
At CapitaLand’s RiverGate, about 2 per cent of buyers have missed payments since the project was completed in March, the developer said on Thursday. Most of the project’s buyers had opted to take the deferred payment scheme.
‘Two per cent is not an alarming figure,’ said Mr Mak. ‘Once in a while you get cases like a single buyer unable to pay for 51 units but, if you look at the bigger picture, it may just be a small proportion.’
But he added that next year will be the time of reckoning, as many projects that were sold during the height of the market – in the second half of 2007 and early last year – will be completed then, with the bulk of their payments due.
Newbie
Those who know their brands well and have been able to afford buying them, will be able to tell. Those who are not able to afford this type of experience cannot tell any difference and need not tell because they shouldn't be considered in this picture. Similarly, those who can tell a good grade condo in a good location and expensive area can tell the difference between that apartment and another one in the suburb. Those who cannot afford either, shouldn't even come in to try to justify the price gap.
Junior
Too complicated... keep it simple.
Refer to first post in this thread.....
Junior
You can tell the difference between synthetic and natural diamond using naked eye? or even with 10x scope? wow. even experienced and trained gemonologist are fooled. Of course, now DeBeers have provided them the equipment to differentiate.
Anyway, there are grades of knockoff.
The best is those from the workshops that made the genuine products themselves. Those fashion houses, they outsource the production to workshop for say 1000 handbags. The workshops produce 1300 pieces instead, Excess 300 they sell to a fence. Cost of production for a fashion goods is miniscule compared to the selling price.
Apart from those workshops, Grade A stuff are hard to differentiate also. You have to know exactly what to look out for.
And the rich, well they buy knockoffs themselves. The thing is, people know they are rich for eg, stay in GCB and drive in Bentleys, so even if they use fake, people will still think they are genuine.
And the middle class if stay in HDB, even if they buy genuine Hermes, people will still think they are fake
Junior
I agree, use URA indexToo complicated... keep it simple.
Refer to first post in this thread.....
Unfortunately, some people, like Teddybear find faults with URA index.
so another fellow suggested use 3 to compare.
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