NEW 2011 CCR or OCR thread

[Wild Falcon]

It is in response to someone comments that local indie designers cannot survive in Orchard due to the low margins. Nothing to do with investments.

Small town need to preserve its small town charm lah. Its like Europe, a lot of small towns do not allow/welcome foreign alien brands to come in to dilute their culture. I would dread the day when a heartland mall would be full of LV and Pradas - the Guardian, Bata and C& Keith and Breadtalk will do just fine. And the discerning tourists sometimes don't follow standard tours. You would be surprised some foreigners find our HDB flats/heartlands "unique".

Anyway, not hot on Orchard properties. I recall in 2007, St Regis Residences, Ritz Calton Residences and Orchard Residences are transacting above $5000psf and all experts were still shouting "buy". Today what happens? Bought at $5600psf, dunno when can see the light. Now 30% discount at $4000psf, many experts are shouting "cheap" but no one is biting...

Agree that tourists who are discerning will look for things unique to Singapore, but going to heartland mall will hardly qualify as unique. Arab street/Chinatown/Little India are examples of unique. But then again, if I'm rich and travelling, chances are i will still stick to 5 start hotels for my stay and organise private tours of all the unique places in Singapore.

Also, we are talking abt residential property market, not tourism industry. tourist numbers has little to do with condo prices anywhere on the island. Be it OCR or CCR.

It is investment demand that drives prices. And CCR like OCR has its own set of demand drivers which will support the prices.

[proud owner]

The problem is if Orchard Road only carries the foreign mainstream brands like the LV and Pradas which every tourist can find in any other parts of the world, then it will lose its charms to these tourists. Tourists/foreigners (other than PRCs who obviously only buy mainstream labels that everyone knows) are now more discerning - sometimes they come to your country to find things that is unique to your country - i.e. local indie designers that cannot be found in other countries. LV/Prada is Branded - Yes. Unique? Hardly. Can be found in large shopping malls everywhere. In fact, can be found at almost all airports.

yes i agree

but i am talking about small local brand setting up bizz in orchard malls ...
what do they sell ?

nothing unique enuff for tourists ... they go to chinatown, l'tle india etc
not along orchard road ..

and many of these small shops can also be found in OCR ..
for heartlanders ..would you buy those stuff in orchard ? or in your local malls ?

setting bizz there to compete with big boys is quite suicidal

[Condo Kaiser]

Yup, there's no comparison in term of which is better, merely personal taste and more likely than not most people will like a little bit of both.

A little bit disigner shoes coupled with a little bit indie chic ear ring makes good companion mah.

And with regards to CCR prices below historic high, wouldn't that make a good case for a right time to invest in them? Assuming that what comes up must come down and what goes down must come up.

[amk]

Condo Kaiser, prepare yourself for battle

[stalingrad]

Condo Kaiser, prepare yourself for battle

No, I will not battle him. I don't find it worth my time to talk sense into people who argue based on self-interest rather than what is logical.

This guy is probably invested heavily in CCR, and sitting on sizable losses.

[Allthepies]

Good size CCR property in prime location usually strong in demand. Those with shopping belt/amenities at door step yet very secluded. i.e. such as Ardmore Park.

OCR properties usually cater to entry level investors such as myself who dont have much money to invest Please don't flame me, this is just my opinion....

[teddybear]

Wah, Condo Kaiser are getting wacked left, right and centre by you know who (the usual super strong OCR supporters who dream that one day their OCR properties properties would sell at same price in $PSF as Orchard properties) .
They dreaming of swapping at no extra cost hence so passionate to talk down CCR & Orchard properties?

Condo Kaiser, prepare yourself for battle

[proud owner]

Good size CCR property in prime location usually strong in demand. Those with shopping belt/amenities at door step yet very secluded. i.e. such as Ardmore Park.

OCR properties usually cater to entry level investors such as myself who dont have much money to invest Please don't flame me, this is just my opinion....

not necessary

Ardmore II psf is not fantastic , rental is lagi bad

[stalingrad]

Wah, Condo Kaiser are getting wacked left, right and centre by you know who (the usual super strong OCR supporters who dream that one day their OCR properties properties would sell at same price in $PSF as Orchard properties) .
They dreaming of swapping at no extra cost hence so passionate to talk down CCR & Orchard properties?

teddy, please don't waste your time here. go patronize those eateries at orchard that can't last very long because of a lack of business.

[Condo Kaiser]

Haha, flame me. it's ok..

I was just trying to give a balanced view. If you look at my post, not a single one points to CCR being better than OCR. I was merely stating they each have their own merits.

But it seems to me that the OCR owners here are really keen to see CCR fall to their knees. But I feel if that happens, OCR properties will be affected too.

My point remains that there will always be a premium that real CCR properties command. Sometimes it's narrow margin sometimes it's wide margin depending on market sentiment.

No point saying which is better as it's like comparing Singapore Apple taste better than Malaysia Pear. 2 different fruit and from different country. No comparison.

Lastly my disclaimer:

I personally have properties in both OCR and CCR as well as a 20 years old HDB. So I just want the whole Singapore property market to be stable.

[patricia]

OCBC now echoed what DBS CEO said (highlighted in BLUE below).

What else do you expect them to say? Oh, the market is going down and we are losing business by the days? Of course, they will play different song when the OCR song seem oversold. CCR song seem to be their target. Always read with a pinch of salt if it is from people with vested interest. So naive/stupid? Talk to you, I wants to

[hopeful]

Haha, CCR vs OCR debate still rages on.

How come nobody start landed vs condo/apartment debate now?
Pretty sure landed will win hands down.

[teddybear]

Never mind, I will make the statement:
CCR will always be more expensive than OCR, that is the purpose of the distinction, even though at times the gap may narrow, at times the gap may widen but the gap will never be fixed all the time, let alone be close to 0!

Those trying to talk down CCR properties and dreaming that their OCR prices will thus go up to transact at same $PSF as CCR can continue to dream on & on. The reality in future will be more like this: CCR down 20%, OCR down 40% given the fact that CCR has not surpassed previous peak while OCR is already almost 20% above previous peak!

OCR can never go too high is also supported by the fact that the top 10%-20% household income earners likely to buy OCR properties are just earning like $10,000 pm average. The most they can afford is likely a $1.5m property and with some spare money for retirement and that is it. You think they can afford family size properties at >$2m each and still can retire comfortably?

Haha, flame me. it's ok..

I was just trying to give a balanced view. If you look at my post, not a single one points to CCR being better than OCR. I was merely stating they each have their own merits.

But it seems to me that the OCR owners here are really keen to see CCR fall to their knees. But I feel if that happens, OCR properties will be affected too.

My point remains that there will always be a premium that real CCR properties command. Sometimes it's narrow margin sometimes it's wide margin depending on market sentiment.

No point saying which is better as it's like comparing Singapore Apple taste better than Malaysia Pear. 2 different fruit and from different country. No comparison.

Lastly my disclaimer:

I personally have properties in both OCR and CCR as well as a 20 years old HDB. So I just want the whole Singapore property market to be stable.

[stalingrad]

Never mind, I will make the statement:
CCR will always be more expensive than OCR, that is the purpose of the distinction, even though at times the gap may narrow, at times the gap may widen but the gap will never be fixed all the time, let alone be close to 0!

Those trying to talk down CCR properties and dreaming that their OCR prices will thus go up to transact at same $PSF as CCR can continue to dream on & on. The reality in future will be more like this: CCR down 20%, OCR down 40% given the fact that CCR has not surpassed previous peak while OCR is already almost 20% above previous peak!

teddy, this is a true story:

stalin: I think these D10 condos along bukit timah road are not bad. We should consider them.

wife: why, what do I have to gain by moving here.

stalin: you can arrive at work sooner, and you are closer to shopping. and then the schools here are prestigious.

wife: It takes me 20 minutes from our home via AYE to go to shenton way. From here, I need to spend probably double the time. We shop at cold storage at west coast plaza. where is the cold storage here? our kids go to international schools, whether the schools here are good or bad is irrelevant.

stalind: you are right. let's stay where we are.

[Condo Kaiser]

True. If in this specific senario you have painted, probably Stalin is dumb to want to move to Bukit Timah. He should move to Robertson Quay.

(But i think bukit timah got quite a few cold storage/NTUC Finest, King Albert Park/Bukit Timah Plaza/Coronation Plaza/Sixth Avenue/Robin Road/ Chancery Lane etc)

But simply stating that does not equate OCR being superior... Let's be fair here, OCR has its benefits and CCR has its benefits, some people like Singapore Apple some people like Malaysia Pear.

[melodies]

Your true story is quite stupid actually. Your wife should live beside Novena Square, just like the below example of somebody's wife A:

stalin: I think these D10 condos along bukit timah road are not bad. We should consider them.

wife: why, what do I have to gain by moving here.

A: Move to near Novena Square, lots of benefits!

stalin: you can arrive at work sooner, and you are closer to shopping. and then the schools here are prestigious.

wife: It takes me 20 minutes from our home via AYE to go to shenton way. From here, I need to spend probably double the time. We shop at cold storage at west coast plaza. where is the cold storage here? our kids go to international schools, whether the schools here are good or bad is irrelevant.

A: To go to Shenton Way from Novena takes only 10 mins! Want to shop at Cold Storage? What for drive and waste petrol and car parking fee? Walk to Novena Square also have! Want NTUC Fairprice also in there! Many other shops in 4 shopping malls (Novena Square, Novena Square 2, Velocity, and United Square) nearby! Kids need to go International Schools? Just further up Thomson Road 2km only! But local famous schools even better, too bad foreigners can't even get in as they are in Phase 3 where these schools have ZERO vacancies left! Within 3 km distance already 6 famous schools! - SJI Junior, ACS Junior, ACS Pri, SCGS Pri, Nanyang Pri, Raffles Girls' Primary! Our kids can reach home in double quick time after school and can leave home for school 15 mins before school start without getting late!

stalind: you are right. let's stay where we are.[/QUOTE]

A: Bloody stupid to stay where we are! Quick move to Novena! The benefits is worth more than $2000 psf property price!

wife: Drive me to Orchard for shopping now!
stalind: I am not free, have to go for an appointment in Toa Payoh, so far away from here! Can't make it in time!

wife: *#%*()@! Why live here in West Coast so inconvenient? A place where "birds don't even want to lay eggs"! If I live beside Novena Square I don't need useless husband like you to drive me around! I can just take the MRT, 2 stops and 4 mins time and I am at Orchard for my favorite shopping!

teddy, this is a true story:

stalin: I think these D10 condos along bukit timah road are not bad. We should consider them.

wife: why, what do I have to gain by moving here.

stalin: you can arrive at work sooner, and you are closer to shopping. and then the schools here are prestigious.

wife: It takes me 20 minutes from our home via AYE to go to shenton way. From here, I need to spend probably double the time. We shop at cold storage at west coast plaza. where is the cold storage here? our kids go to international schools, whether the schools here are good or bad is irrelevant.

stalind: you are right. let's stay where we are.

[teddybear]

The stupid stalingrad with his "Crabelle" and West Coast is the best story again? Oh my god!

Your true story is quite stupid actually. Your wife should live beside Novena Square, just like the below example of somebody's wife A:

stalin: I think these D10 condos along bukit timah road are not bad. We should consider them.

wife: why, what do I have to gain by moving here.

A: Move to near Novena Square, lots of benefits!

stalin: you can arrive at work sooner, and you are closer to shopping. and then the schools here are prestigious.

wife: It takes me 20 minutes from our home via AYE to go to shenton way. From here, I need to spend probably double the time. We shop at cold storage at west coast plaza. where is the cold storage here? our kids go to international schools, whether the schools here are good or bad is irrelevant.

A: To go to Shenton Way from Novena takes only 10 mins! Want to shop at Cold Storage? What for drive and waste petrol and car parking fee? Walk to Novena Square also have! Want NTUC Fairprice also in there! Many other shops in 4 shopping malls (Novena Square, Novena Square 2, Velocity, and United Square) nearby! Kids need to go International Schools? Just further up Thomson Road 2km only! But local famous schools even better, too bad foreigners can't even get in as they are in Phase 3 where these schools have ZERO vacancies left! Within 3 km distance already 6 famous schools! - SJI Junior, ACS Junior, ACS Pri, SCGS Pri, Nanyang Pri, Raffles Girls' Primary! Our kids can reach home in double quick time after school and can leave home for school 15 mins before school start without getting late!

stalind: you are right. let's stay where we are.

A: Bloody stupid to stay where we are! Quick move to Novena! The benefits is worth more than $2000 psf property price!

wife: Drive me to Orchard for shopping now!
stalind: I am not free, have to go for an appointment in Toa Payoh, so far away from here! Can't make it in time!

wife: *#%*()@! Why live here in West Coast so inconvenient? A place where "birds don't even want to lay eggs"! If I live beside Novena Square I don't need useless husband like you to drive me around! I can just take the MRT, 2 stops and 4 mins time and I am at Orchard for my favorite shopping!

[ocoloco79]

Haha, CCR vs OCR debate still rages on.

How come nobody start landed vs condo/apartment debate now?
Pretty sure landed will win hands down.

I tot so, but it is not! Most prefered condo/apartment!

[Allthepies]

not necessary

Ardmore II psf is not fantastic , rental is lagi bad

Ardmore Park is good.

[proud owner]

Ardmore Park is good.

but not ardmore II

[hopeful]

Ardmore Park is good.

terrible. rental only 6-7psf

[westman]

terrible. rental only 6-7psf

Ardmore Park transacted at 3xxx psf and with 6~7psf, seem like these ultra rich units rental yield are around 2.5~3% p.a.

How about the asset's appreciate goes for Ardmore Park?

[hopeful]

Ardmore Park transacted at 3xxx psf and with 6~7psf, seem like these ultra rich units rental yield are around 2.5~3% p.a.

How about the asset's appreciate goes for Ardmore Park?

i am educated by Regulators to start looking at yield .
in bad times. drop lot, in good times rise a lot also.

[DaytonaSS]

Far from the S'pore crowd


An Australian family who lived in Singapore for a couple of years opted to move to Johor Baru because they found it too 'crowded' here.
'Coming from Australia, then California, we were just not used to the mass of people, especially on weekends, when we were trying to get the shopping done,' said Mrs Kaz Augustin, 45, an author and audiobook narrator.
The mid-level managerial positions she and her husband Jack hold mean that they do not enjoy housing perks or cheaper school fees for their children.
She said: 'We were spending more money than we were earning while living in Singapore.'
In Johor Baru, Mrs Augustin and her family live in a 14,520 sq ft house at Ledang Heights that cost them RM1.5 million (S$626,000). There are four bedrooms, a pool and front and back gardens.
A similar house on a smaller piece of land here would have set them back by $7 million to $8 million.
Her husband works in Singapore and travels to work by public transport, taking about an hour and a half to get from the bus stop at Gelang Petah to Clementi MRT station.
Mrs Augustin homeschools their two primary school children because the local schools teach Malay, which they do not understand, while the international schools are too far away.
Melissa Lin
LEDANG HEIGHTS
S$626,000
14,520 sq ft

[DaytonaSS]

There are few articles on straits time on pple shifting to stay in JB today. Teddy , there are pple whom do it ya. beyond OCR now got JB for a fraction of the price.

[devilplate]

How long haf they moved to jb liao? They r so daring to stay in jb wor.... Plus Homesch n travel long hrs to work.... Isit worth the trouble and risk at all?

Hope their kids r safe from kidnappers

[melodies]

For price reason, sure! When I have no more activity in Singapore and don't need to be in Singapore everyday, may be I should go JB to get a 50,000 sqft land to build a Bungalow over there - this will set me back by equivalent of S$3m vs >S$50m in Singapore. But first, I will get a bullet-proof BMW or Mercedes to go with the house and 2 gukhars as bodyguards too.

There are few articles on straits time on pple shifting to stay in JB today. Teddy , there are pple whom do it ya. beyond OCR now got JB for a fraction of the price.

[teddybear]

You sure those with a tens of millions $ or more want to live there even if it is dirt cheap? These few days, several cases of kidnapping and even murder of the rich over there. The most recent one is a ex-VP of Times Publishing, got stabbed in the neck and dumped along the road in Malaysia. Another one his wife, kids, and maid got kidnapped in Malaysia and asking for a sum of $50m. He paid unspecified amount and luckily his family members got released. There are many other cases where money paid and people still dead!

There are few articles on straits time on pple shifting to stay in JB today. Teddy , there are pple whom do it ya. beyond OCR now got JB for a fraction of the price.

[DaytonaSS]

Got $$$ stay Singapore safe lah. I think they go cos cannot tahan Singapore standard of living. They still work here leh

[DaytonaSS]

Home > News > Home > Story

Mar 27, 2011

Homes away from home

For some Singaporeans, living in Johor is laid back and affordable, though security can sometimes be an issue

By Cheryl Ong and Melissa Lin

(Above) The living room of Ms Denyse Tessensohn's Ledang Heights home in Johor. She lives in the 9,000 sq ft property with her husband Steve Hogan. They commute to work in Singapore five days a week. -- ST PHOTOS: NEO XIAOBIN, NG SOR LUAN

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Home to educator Denyse Tessensohn had always been Singapore. But two years ago, after agonising over it, her family uprooted from their five-room Zion Road flat to settle in Johor, Malaysia, instead.
Her younger son, Mikhil, 25, an aspiring music therapist, had a place to study at the Berklee College of Music in Boston.
But when they worked out the sums, the family found that they could not afford Mikhil's overseas education if they continued to live in Singapore.
Two years on, they have since found the move not as painful as they had expected.
Ms Tessensohn, 60, and her husband Steve Hogan, 62, refer to their 9,000 sq ft home as a 'modest bungalow'.
Spacious as it is compared to their former HDB flat, it is the second smallest home in the Ledang Heights estate in Nusajaya, west of Johor Baru city.
For the $400,000 price tag, they have four bedrooms, a garden, parking space and membership in the estate's clubhouse which has a pool, gym and restaurant.
'Our living cost is much lower; utilities are a quarter of what we used to pay,' Ms Tessensohn said. 'It's quiet, there's space, good air. It's affordable and there's very good food.'
The couple commute to work in Singapore five days a week. Mr Hogan is an artist and teacher.
Moving to Johor
More Singaporean families have gone to live in and commute from Johor. They are attracted to its up-and-coming residential cities such as Nusajaya, where big houses and a quality lifestyle can be had on middle-class incomes.
Take the figures at East Ledang and Horizon Hills, two estates in Nusajaya where expatriates make up half of the residents. Of the foreigners, 80 per cent are Singaporean.
Not all is rosy though. Most of the foreigners - including the Singaporeans - interviewed by The Sunday Times, admitted that their homes had been broken into at least once.
Most of the Singaporeans declined to be photographed, concerned that they might be discriminated against by their fellow countrymen for - in the words of one - 'semi-quitting' their homeland.
Nusajaya
From the sky, Nusajaya resembles a city in progress. Patches of construction areas and swathes of virgin greenery make up the bulk of the 9,308ha landscape.
There is access to the highways bound for Johor Baru city or the Tuas checkpoint, both 20 minutes' ride away. Nusajaya is said to be on the way to becoming one of the most sought-after residential cities in Johor.
It is part of the Iskandar Malaysia project to develop Johor into an economic powerhouse. The area, including regions such as Johor Baru city, Senai and Pontian, is three times the size of Singapore.
In Nusajaya itself, various hubs are in the pipeline. There is EduCity, a 242ha collection of brand-name colleges and research centres, including Britain's Newcastle University and Singapore's MDIS. Newcastle's medical college will be ready there by this year.
Its integrated theme park, Legoland Malaysia, is due to be completed by next year. A transport hub has also been planned for the area, with a coastal highway due to be ready by next year.
Residential enclaves - like Ms Tessensohn's estate - have already sprung up. Each estate touts itself grander than the next. Nusajaya's Horizon Hills, for example, features an 18-hole award-winning golf course at residents' doorsteps.
Despite the premium pricing for houses in Nusajaya - starting from RM700,000 (S$292,000) for terrace units with about 5,000 sq ft in built-up space - they are popular with Singaporeans, who make up half the clientele.
Technology consultant Wu Qi (not his real name), is one of them. His semi-detached house cost him less than RM800,000 when he bought it two years ago. It takes him about an hour to travel to his office in Singapore's Central Business District each workday.
But the 34-year-old said: 'It is worth it. I enjoy the fresh air, the space and the freedom. It's not really about the travelling cost but whether it makes long-term sense.'
The lower cost of living was also a draw for Mr Steven Wong, 40, who has a weekend home in Setia Indah. The manufacturing firm manager estimates that food items in Malaysia are two to three times cheaper, thanks to the currency conversion.
'Living here is so much cheaper,' he said. 'The money saved can go towards my retirement. If I still live in Singapore, I won't be able to retire in comfort.'
Security issues
The expanses of land in both developed residential projects and uncompleted ones can lead to security issues, though.
At East Ledang, tall 'anti-climb' fences enclose entire residential developments, while guards patrol 24/7 within and closed-circuit television cameras scan the perimeters for intruders.
Meanwhile, the Johor police has been combating the perception that crime is a serious issue in the area.
Last year, the authorities arrested 3,286 suspects for break-ins that include property and vehicle thefts.
Local media said the crime rate dipped by 22 per cent after the authorities stepped up patrols and crime prevention campaigns. The Malaysian government has also allocated RM140 million to build a district police headquarters for Nusajaya.
Still, many residents take no chances when it comes to personal safety.
Ms Tessensohn said her house was broken into three times in two years after she moved in.
'We now have razor wire, grilles and dogs. Alarms are about to be installed,' she said. 'The guards had been slack. Now a RM5 million safety fence has been installed. We feel a lot safer.'
Mr Wu, too, said residents look for ways to cope.
'Crime is everywhere, be it in Johor Baru or Singapore. The key is to have some common sense and not be flashy. Keep a low profile. Never display your wealth,' he said.
Fitting in
Australian writer Kaz Augustin, 45, spent two years in Singapore before she moved to Johor Baru with her husband and two children in 2008.
Recreation for the family includes visiting the Ledang Heights estate's clubhouse and restaurants. They also take walks in the park in the estate, or enjoy the nearby lake in their motorised speedboat.
Bukit Indah, which is about 10 minutes away by car for the Augustins, has supermarket chains such as Jusco and Tesco, and shops. But there are some things in Singapore that are hard to beat.
'I miss the libraries there. There is no library close to us to take the children to,' said Mrs Augustin.
Residents there are awaiting the completion of Legoland and Puteri Harbour, a waterfront development. Till then, they spend their free time around the usual places in their gated communities, and however far their cars can take them out of Nusajaya.
Life in Johor can be slower in other ways, too. Ms Tessensohn said the Internet connection at her home is 'laggy', as are many services there.
'It can take a huge amount of time to get something done,' she said.
Mr Wong spends more time waiting for the waiters in restaurants to serve him than he does in Singapore, but he has learnt to take things easy. 'You must remember you're not in Singapore,' he said.
But he does see some pluses in the faster pace in Singapore.
'Rushing for time may not be such a bad thing, at least when it comes to work. It means we get our work done faster so we have more time for other things,' he said.
[email protected]
[email protected]
Peace of mind - at a price
'We now have razor wire, grilles and dogs. Alarms are about to be installed...The guards had been slack. Now they are on the ball and a RM5 million safety fence has been installed. We feel a lot safer.'
SINGAPOREAN DENYSE TESSENSOHN, whose Ledang Heights home in Nusajaya has been burgled three times in the two years since she moved in
Keeping a low profile
'Crime is everywhere, be it in Johor Baru or Singapore...The key is to have some common sense and not be flashy. Keep a low profile. Never display your wealth.'
SINGAPOREAN TECHNOLOGY CONSULTANT WU QI, who owns a semi-detached house in Nusajaya