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Thread: Stuck in housing limbo despite higher ceiling

  1. #1
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    Default Stuck in housing limbo despite higher ceiling

    sympathise or bash ?

    -----------------------
    Stuck in housing limbo despite higher ceiling
    Straits Times: 7-sep-2011

    MY WIFE and I were delighted when Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong announced that the income ceiling would be raised to $10,000 and $12,000 for new build-to-order (BTO) flats and executive condominiums (ECs) respectively ('HDB raises income ceiling to $10,000'; Aug 15).

    We checked the HDB website several days later but discovered that we were once again ineligible to apply for ECs even though our combined income falls below $12,000. That is because of a clause stating that an applicant cannot own any private property 30 months prior to EC application.

    We are prepared to sell our private property to apply for an EC. However, requiring us to sell it 30 months before applying for an EC does not make sense.

    Where will we stay for 21/2 years? In fact, if one includes the time taken for construction of the EC, we would have to spend at least five years renting a place or living with our parents.

    We have a toddler and plan on having another child. The waiting period will surely disrupt their education and childcare.

    Two years ago, we did not qualify because our combined income exceeded $8,000. With sellers seeking cash-over- valuations of between $60,000 and $90,000 in our preferred location - near both our parents' homes - we were forced to buy a small private condominium apartment that was selling at valuation as we did not have enough cash.

    The inescapable irony was that we qualified for a bank loan to buy a private property but did not have enough cash to buy a subsidised public flat. Being forced to buy a private home saddled us with a whopping $600,000 loan.

    We are toying with the idea of selling our private property as our joint income is just below the income ceiling for now, but we are uncertain if we will still be earning the same income 30 months from now.

    All we want is to live in a home we can afford and, yet, we are caught in a predicament.

    We think this could be our last chance to buy a Housing Board flat. We hope the Government would consider revising this rule for the sandwiched class.

    Lim Chong Wee
    ---------------------------

  2. #2
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    how to solve everyone's problem...

  3. #3
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    I agree that the 30 month rule is rather absurd

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    Why need to wait for 30months?? If cant own any private property.. Should sell it and go apply for EC..

    In the first place, dunno how HDB work out the waiting period of 30months..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regulators
    I agree that the 30 month rule is rather absurd
    wonder how the 30mth figure come about, seem too long...another of MBT legacy

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    What is the rationale of making people wait 2.5 years to downgrade? If people downgrade now and immediately buy an hdb flat, they will also be stuck with 5 yr mop before they can do anything with the flat, so isn't it a case of double penalty? I think khaw boon wan needs to relook at this aspect of the law.

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    I think mbt's intention was just to make it tough for those who had lived in pte to buy hdb. By having this 30 month gap, it effectively deters pte pty owners from even considering hdb, keeping hdb to the mid to low income masses. But the law being rigid, it fails to take into account those who wish to downgrade because of a change in their financial situation. If a person has lost his job and needs to downgrade urgently to hdb, does it make any sense to wait out the 30 month period?
    Quote Originally Posted by land118
    wonder how the 30mth figure come about, seem too long...another of MBT legacy
    R

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    i cant really sympathise with this mr lim

    the hdb ceiling is 8k for a very long time. Two yrs ago when mr lim decided to buy a small private condo he shld already considered the fact that when his family grows bigger requiring him to upgrade to a bigger place, the only option will have to be a private too.

    the fact that he is now eligible for HDB or EC due to raising income ceiling is therefore irrelevant... unless he is facing some financial situation requiring him to sell off his condo and downgrade.

    and there is nothing wrong if he has to rent for 30mths. it is not like he cant afford it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regulators
    I think mbt's intention was just to make it tough for those who had lived in pte to buy hdb. By having this 30 month gap, it effectively deters pte pty owners from even considering hdb, keeping hdb to the mid to low income masses. But the law being rigid, it fails to take into account those who wish to downgrade because of a change in their financial situation. If a person has lost his job and needs to downgrade urgently to hdb, does it make any sense to wait out the 30 month period?
    R
    Imo, this guy just want to have the cake and eat it too. I'm not sure about HDB rules but I assume he can still buy resale HDB after selling his Private Condo. And in the 2 yrs since he bought the `small condo', he probably would have made a decent profit to allow him to pay for the COV that he claimed he didnt have 2 yrs ago.

    More likely than not, he thinks there is more profits to be made by buying a subsidised EC AND he is also unwilling to give up his profits to pay for COV. If he really wants to `downgrade', I'm sure a HDB 5 room will cost less than his `small condo'.

    The disgusting part is he even use the `small home so can't pro-create' threat to argue his selfish demands. This is another eg of the `I want it all now' generation of 20s-30s. I disagree that help or subsidies be given to such people. Subsidies should be better utilised to help the real needy...not to meet aspirations. Dreams and aspirations should be through own sheer hardwork and ingenuity...not handouts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by august
    i cant really sympathise with this mr lim

    the hdb ceiling is 8k for a very long time. Two yrs ago when mr lim decided to buy a small private condo he shld already considered the fact that when his family grows bigger requiring him to upgrade to a bigger place, the only option will have to be a private too.

    the fact that he is now eligible for HDB or EC due to raising income ceiling is therefore irrelevant... unless he is facing some financial situation requiring him to sell off his condo and downgrade.

    and there is nothing wrong if he has to rent for 30mths. it is not like he cant afford it.
    Same sentiments, he can always go rent a place. Seem like he trying to use child upbringing and procreation ('plan on having another child') as basis for his complaint since our birth rate is low.

    But the 30mth rule need to relook by KBW.
    Last edited by land118; 07-09-11 at 12:27.

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    Whether mr lim has made money or not is besides the point. Are you telling me that it is ok for ministers to rip obscene loads of money off taxpayers and people can't earn money from property? Why should he be penalised for downgrading? You mean our society should be one that encourages people to upgrade when the person does well and punish a person for downgrading if he fails to maintain his high cost of living?
    Quote Originally Posted by HP65
    Imo, this guy just want to have the cake and eat it too. I'm not sure about HDB rules but I assume he can still buy resale HDB after selling his Private Condo. And in the 2 yrs since he bought the `small condo', he probably would have made a decent profit to allow him to pay for the COV that he claimed he didnt have 2 yrs ago.

    More likely than not, he thinks there is more profits to be made by buying a subsidised EC AND he is also unwilling to give up his profits to pay for COV. If he really wants to `downgrade', I'm sure a HDB 5 room will cost less than his `small condo'.

    The disgusting part is he even use the `small home so can't pro-create' threat to argue his selfish demands. This is another eg of the `I want it all now' generation of 20s-30s. I disagree that help or subsidies be given to such people. Subsidies should be better utilised to help the real needy...not to meet aspirations. Dreams and aspirations should be through own sheer hardwork and ingenuity...not handouts.

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    I believe this couple can appeal and the relevant authority will review it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regulators
    Whether mr lim has made money or not is besides the point. Are you telling me that it is ok for ministers to rip obscene loads of money off taxpayers and people can't earn money from property? Why should he be penalised for downgrading? You mean our society should be one that encourages people to upgrade when the person does well and punish a person for downgrading if he fails to maintain his high cost of living?
    the 30-mth rule is already in place way before mr lim decided to go the condo route. therefore to quote someone, "his eyes are open."

    the rule exists to facilitate limited public housing supply i.e. HDB goes to those who needs it more.

    of cos we can also then argue why is this govt allowing foreigners (PRs) to have access to limited public resource? but thats another can of worms for another day hehe

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    Quote Originally Posted by DC33_2008
    I believe this couple can appeal and the relevant authority will review it.
    I think this guy will fail in his appeal. Pulling his kids in to support his case just makes him look all the more desparate to get his grant.

  15. #15
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    The 30 months waiting period is to prevent people to jump to private, make $ and jump back to HDB. People can easily earn one 5 room HDB so they didn't want people to speculate and inflate the HDB prices. I think it is a fair policy.

    Anyway, this writer is bullshitting. Based on his loan amount of 600k, his purchase price would be 750k. 5% cash downpayment + 3% SD = 60k of cold hard cash.

    No money for COV? Sure or not? COV only around 10k - 20k in suburban even during the height of 2007.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regulators
    Whether mr lim has made money or not is besides the point. Are you telling me that it is ok for ministers to rip obscene loads of money off taxpayers and people can't earn money from property? Why should he be penalised for downgrading? You mean our society should be one that encourages people to upgrade when the person does well and punish a person for downgrading if he fails to maintain his high cost of living?
    This is not TR so would appreciate we leave out ministers etc. In fact, even if its true ministers are ripping off taxpayers, it still doesn't justify this Mr Lim's entitlement to subsidized housing if he doesn't qualify under our Housing regulations. The reason is because, going by your argument and analogy, `since the police is stealing, it gives me the right to loot as well', just doesnt make sense. A wrong is a wrong. And asking for subsidy if you are not exactly needy is plain wrong, greedy and selfish since the real needy is deprived of such resources.

    Its so plain to see this guy is only telling half the story....especially when he has to resort to `threatening' the country with his fertility seeds. Once again, there is nothing wrong with making money. The issue is when he wants to make money using subsidized taxpayers money? That is the issue. I will disagree that people like him is allowed to use my money for his own gain. And if you still insist on bringing in the ministers etc, remember this is not the place to cloud the 2 separate issues. It only serve to reinforce my belief that Mr Lim's argument for subsidized housing is weak that other points need to be brought in to support his claim. Anyway, I believe the platform was on 7th May and you probably had registered your dissatisfaction

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    Quote Originally Posted by thomastansb
    No money for COV? Sure or not? COV only around 10k - 20k in suburban even during the height of 2007.
    [With sellers seeking cash-over- valuations of between $60,000 and $90,000 in our preferred location]
    - writer only want preferred location ok
    but the funny thing is, he want to buy new ec now,
    now have ec in his preferred location meh, which used to have cov of 60k-90k

  18. #18
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    I think minister pay is seperate issue. I thought we should pay more to those performing ones. Like 10 million to a good one. People who screw things up should be sacked after 2 years and get 0.5 million or lesser only. It is hard to swallow the fact that our transport sucks but yet, someone up there is getting the same pay as one who engineer a 14.5% GDP growth.

    Anyway, he did not get penalised for downgrading. He can still buy a resale flat isn't it? Just that he needs to buy a resale first, wait 5 years then apply for new flat. I am sure he knows that. I think he just want to earn even more - by selling his condo (which should have substantial gain now) and buying a subsidised condo.

    By allow this to happen, those who really need HDB will be penalised and they will suffer. Of course, he is the biggest winner - at the expense of others. I think this is not right.



    Quote Originally Posted by Regulators
    Whether mr lim has made money or not is besides the point. Are you telling me that it is ok for ministers to rip obscene loads of money off taxpayers and people can't earn money from property? Why should he be penalised for downgrading? You mean our society should be one that encourages people to upgrade when the person does well and punish a person for downgrading if he fails to maintain his high cost of living?

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    I fully agree with you. It is totally separate issues. Back to that greedy asshole - Yup, he will deplete the housing supply for those who need it more. His combined income is 10-12k range, bought a private (most probably earn a big sum) and yet, want to compete with those lower income. What is this world coming to???


    Quote Originally Posted by HP65
    This is not TR so would appreciate we leave out ministers etc. In fact, even if its true ministers are ripping off taxpayers, it still doesn't justify this Mr Lim's entitlement to subsidized housing if he doesn't qualify under our Housing regulations. The reason is because, going by your argument and analogy, `since the police is stealing, it gives me the right to loot as well', just doesnt make sense. A wrong is a wrong. And asking for subsidy if you are not exactly needy is plain wrong, greedy and selfish since the real needy is deprived of such resources.

    Its so plain to see this guy is only telling half the story....especially when he has to resort to `threatening' the country with his fertility seeds. Once again, there is nothing wrong with making money. The issue is when he wants to make money using subsidized taxpayers money? That is the issue. I will disagree that people like him is allowed to use my money for his own gain. And if you still insist on bringing in the ministers etc, remember this is not the place to cloud the 2 separate issues. It only serve to reinforce my belief that Mr Lim's argument for subsidized housing is weak that other points need to be brought in to support his claim. Anyway, I believe the platform was on 7th May and you probably had registered your dissatisfaction

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    Even COV at 60k, he has the money but he choose to buy a private. And he is fully aware of the restriction.

    If the Government becomes a populist Government, we are so screwed.




    Quote Originally Posted by taggy
    [With sellers seeking cash-over- valuations of between $60,000 and $90,000 in our preferred location]
    - writer only want preferred location ok
    but the funny thing is, he want to buy new ec now,
    now have ec in his preferred location meh, which used to have cov of 60k-90k

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    Tat guy just wana make easy money from hdb bto la! Seeing tat resale flat so high now and bto flat at nearly half the price!

    He can sell his condo and downgrade to resale hdb wat.....cov at certain area can get less den 30k wat

    There r many ppl complain this and tat la....if he appeal and get his way den can u imagine many other cases and scenerios will surface!

    For eg. Singles must wait till 35yo to get a resale flat and they r not eligible to buy bto

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    I have a few questions for you. What then is the purpose of raising the ceiling? How can a diminishing population of singaporeans be depleting housing resources? If any problem is caused in the public housing market, the PRs should be the problem. We may all know what Mr Lim is up to, reaping profits from both sides pte n hdb, but aren't we all doing that? I can afford to buy 3 pte condos and more to come on the pipeline but I am still keeping my hdb and renting it out for gains, aren't many singaporeans doing the same for decades? I really see nothing wrong with Mr Lim's downgrading plan and don't forget that even if he buys the hdb, he will get locked in for 5 years, that is already the opportunity cost for him coz he can't go back to pte within that time. To me 5yrs is heck of a long time especially when we are all approaching mid life.
    Quote Originally Posted by thomastansb
    I fully agree with you. It is totally separate issues. Back to that greedy asshole - Yup, he will deplete the housing supply for those who need it more. His combined income is 10-12k range, bought a private (most probably earn a big sum) and yet, want to compete with those lower income. What is this world coming to???

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regulators
    Whether mr lim has made money or not is besides the point. Are you telling me that it is ok for ministers to rip obscene loads of money off taxpayers and people can't earn money from property? Why should he be penalised for downgrading? You mean our society should be one that encourages people to upgrade when the person does well and punish a person for downgrading if he fails to maintain his high cost of living?
    Y u say he is being penalised for downgrading?

    He can get a resale flat wat? No? Can he proved tat he cant find a 5rm resale flat in whole sg tat is affordable for him?

    And dun always Bring in minister pay la.....y minister dun hf to pay income tax? Y we shd pay? Yyyy???

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regulators
    I have a few questions for you. What then is the purpose of raising the ceiling? How can a diminishing population of singaporeans be depleting housing resources? If any problem is caused in the public housing market, it PRs should be the problem. We may all know what Mr Lim is up to, reaping profits from both sides pte n hdb, but aren't we all doing that? I can afford to buy 3 pte condos and more to come on the pipeline but I am still keeping my hdb and renting it out for gains, aren't many singaporeans doing the same for decades? I really see nothing wrong with Mr Lim's downgrading plan and don't forget that even if he buys the hdb, he will get licked in for 5 years, that is already the opportunity cost for him coz he can't go back to pte within that time. To me 5yrs is heck of a long time especially when we are all approaching mid life.
    U say 5yrs mop is too long? Bcoz its too short tats y some ppl r speculating hdb now?

    U wan shorter mop and yet u aso complain sky high hdb px! Whahaha

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    Many things can happen to a person's financial situation in five years. If you are employed under a contract, do employers give you 5 year contracts or just 2 years? Even employers dare not commit to employees for long, so hdb can commit people for five years?
    Quote Originally Posted by devilplate
    U say 5yrs mop is too long? Bcoz its too short tats y some ppl r speculating hdb now?

    U wan shorter mop and yet u aso complain sky high hdb px! Whahaha

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regulators
    Many things can happen to a person's financial situation in five years. If you are employed under a contract, do employers give you 5 year contracts or just 2 years? Even employers dare not commit to employees for long, so hdb can commit people for five years?
    Irrelevant....

    And den y bank can approve 30yr loan since individual financial situation is subjected to change every now and den?

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    HDB should revert the MOP to 10 years and assess % of HDB buyers are exploiting it. So many of them use rental from HDB to pay for mortgage of private homes. I should be the one who say unfair as I was never eligible to buy a new flat to exploit the subsidy, etc. We have to be contended some times.
    Quote Originally Posted by Regulators
    I have a few questions for you. What then is the purpose of raising the ceiling? How can a diminishing population of singaporeans be depleting housing resources? If any problem is caused in the public housing market, the PRs should be the problem. We may all know what Mr Lim is up to, reaping profits from both sides pte n hdb, but aren't we all doing that? I can afford to buy 3 pte condos and more to come on the pipeline but I am still keeping my hdb and renting it out for gains, aren't many singaporeans doing the same for decades? I really see nothing wrong with Mr Lim's downgrading plan and don't forget that even if he buys the hdb, he will get locked in for 5 years, that is already the opportunity cost for him coz he can't go back to pte within that time. To me 5yrs is heck of a long time especially when we are all approaching mid life.

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    Banks can auction your property and bankrupt you if you don't pay. Are you suggesting hdb should operate like the banks or is it better for them to give leeway and allow people to sell during mop?
    Quote Originally Posted by devilplate
    Irrelevant....

    And den y bank can approve 30yr loan since individual financial situation is subjected to change every now and den?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regulators
    Banks can auction your property and bankrupt you if you don't pay. Are you suggesting hdb should operate like the banks or is it better for them to give leeway and allow people to sell during mop?
    I dun undstand ur point ....

    If a person default hdb installment, hdb usually got some leeway unlike banks....so wat u r complaning about?

    Earlier u r complaining mop too long wat...is there a link?

    I m trying to say all ur points r irrelevant

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    How small is small ?
    A 4rm flat at 90m2, can house a couple and 2 kids comfortably.
    An 2 or 3 bedder at 1000ft is like a 4rm flat size

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