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Thread: Legal Advice

  1. #1
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    Default Legal Advice

    If an employee had borrowed money from his employer to purchase a car (interest free) about 2 yrs back but later the company terminated him because the company feels that he is unfit to work anymore and compensated him with a lump sum of money. After offsetting this compensation amount, he still owes the company's only around $5k but from the way this employee puts it, it seems that he is very unwilling to pay back and keep on demanding more and more.

    At first, the company wants to pay him 6 months, then later add another 2 months if he pays his car loan within 3 weeks, but he requests for another 1 month, so the company obliged him, now he wants the company to reduce his outstanding car loan further so that he will pay lesser and wants to issue 10 monthly instalments cheques but the company allows him 4 monthly instalments only.

    He claims that he has no money because he runs out of job. He needs to borrow money from the loan shark and from friends (but nobody wants to lent him) and he even threatened the boss that is it that he wants to force him to commit suicide.

    He just got his CPF last year, his deceased mother left him a HDB and some shares and from what I understand he had also sold the HDB. He just went to "Jiuzhago", Bangkok and Genting last year with his wife and he also told one of his colleagues that even if he didn't work, his wife also can support him. Oh yes, his wife is the secretary of the lawyer.

    The boss told him that you can always sell your car and pay your car loan and you still have balance left because of the appreciation of the car value. He claimed that nobody wants to buy his car, so the boss said that I will buy over from you at market price + $2K. Then he said lets not talk about the car first, talk about the compensation. Alamat, he borrows money to buy car and he doesn't want to talk about the car.

    In this type of case, can the company sue him for the outstanding car loan and withdraw all the compensation that the company has promised him and only pay him what he is entitled to because of his greed? Is it worth to take up a case?

  2. #2
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    Your story is very confusing. I got totally lost somewhere in the middle and a big headache in the end. Think I'll go take a nap
    hungry eat sleepy sleep

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    Easy, fall back on the contract you sign with the employee. I believe the contract is comprehensive enough to cover such a scenario. If the contract is lousily drafted, then the employer can only suck thumb and treat this as an expensive lesson.

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    Quote Originally Posted by acidic.straw
    Your story is very confusing. I got totally lost somewhere in the middle and a big headache in the end. Think I'll go take a nap
    I'll attempt to minimise the confusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by irisng
    If an employee had borrowed money from his employer to purchase a car (interest free) about 2 yrs back but later the company terminated him because the company feels that he is unfit to work anymore and compensated him with a lump sum of money. After offsetting this compensation amount, he still owes the company's only around $5k but from the way this employee puts it, it seems that he is very unwilling to pay back and keep on demanding more and more. At first, the company wants to pay him 6 months, then later add another 2 months if he pays his car loan within 3 weeks, but he requests for another 1 month, so the company obliged him, now he wants the company to reduce his outstanding car loan further so that he will pay lesser and wants to issue 10 monthly instalments cheques but the company allows him 4 monthly instalments only.He claims that he has no money because he runs out of job. He needs to borrow money from the loan shark and from friends (but nobody wants to lent him) and he even threatened the boss that is it that he wants to force him to commit suicide. He just got his CPF last year, his deceased mother left him a HDB and some shares and from what I understand he had also sold the HDB. He just went to "Jiuzhago", Bangkok and Genting last year with his wife and he also told one of his colleagues that even if he didn't work, his wife also can support him. Oh yes, his wife is the secretary of the lawyer. The boss told him that you can always sell your car and pay your car loan and you still have balance left because of the appreciation of the car value. He claimed that nobody wants to buy his car, so the boss said that I will buy over from you at market price + $2K. Then he said lets not talk about the car first, talk about the compensation. Alamat, he borrows money to buy car and he doesn't want to talk about the car.In this type of case, can the company sue him for the outstanding car loan and withdraw all the compensation that the company has promised him and only pay him what he is entitled to because of his greed? Is it worth to take up a case?

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    Quote Originally Posted by acidic.straw
    Your story is very confusing. I got totally lost somewhere in the middle and a big headache in the end. Think I'll go take a nap
    Sorry, maybe my story is in too details that confuse you.

    In short, like what howgozit had already summaried.

    1) The company had lent the employee money to buy a brand new Toyota Altis and later terminated him because of certain reason.

    2) With mutual trust, there is no contract being drawn but he signed on a payment voucher that he had collected the money.

    3) He still owes the company $5k after offsetting the compensation that the company has promised :- a) 6 months +
    b) 2 months (if pay within 3 weeks) +
    c) 1 month (upon his request)
    (Outstanding loan $31K - $26K compensation = $5k)

    4) But he is still not satisfied and want the company to reduce the loan further.

    5) Because of his greed, the company thought of withdrawing all the compensation and pay only what he is entitled to (ie 1 month 1 lieu of notice) according to labour law, (in actual fact it has already drag for more than 3 months).

    6) Then bring up the case to the court to claim against him for the car loan.

    My question is can the company bring up a case like that or like what toufu said, only suck the thumb.

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    very cheem

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    Ahhh...thks to all for the clarification..much clearer now.

    I think there shld be a clear separation of
    a) return of loan outstanding for the car purchase
    b) Compensation for early termination

    These 2 issues are distinct and separate and should be dealt with as such. The employer shld not let the employee mix the issues and attempt to increase the compensation to offset the loan.

    Go back to the contract/agreement on each of the issue and deal with it accordingly. That's my two cents worth
    hungry eat sleepy sleep

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    Just slap him with the employment contract.

    And compensate him 1 or 2 months pay.

    Open for negotiation by offerring to take over of his car with 2k above market value.

    If he kpkb, tell him go complain MOM.

    If he want to commit suicide, recommend him bedok reservoir.

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    Quote Originally Posted by victorchoo
    Just slap him with the employment contract.

    And compensate him 1 or 2 months pay.

    Open for negotiation by offerring to take over of his car with 2k above market value.

    If he kpkb, tell him go complain MOM.

    If he want to commit suicide, recommend him bedok reservoir.
    Eh dun be like tat la... Bedok reservoir & surrounding residents deserve a break hor
    hungry eat sleepy sleep

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by victorchoo
    Just slap him with the employment contract.

    And compensate him 1 or 2 months pay.

    Open for negotiation by offerring to take over of his car with 2k above market value.

    If he kpkb, tell him go complain MOM.

    If he want to commit suicide, recommend him bedok reservoir.
    Yup, thats the current happening location for suicides nowadays

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    Quote Originally Posted by acidic.straw
    Eh dun be like tat la... Bedok reservoir & surrounding residents deserve a break hor
    Hahah...

    I would rather prefer them to have a designated reservoir than jump at any other reservoirs...

    . Jk....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geylang OKT
    Yup, thats the current happening location for suicides nowadays
    Eh you another one

    Don't la..give our bedok friends from waterfront series, tropica, future water view a break can?
    hungry eat sleepy sleep

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by irisng
    Sorry, maybe my story is in too details that confuse you.

    In short, like what howgozit had already summaried.

    1) The company had lent the employee money to buy a brand new Toyota Altis and later terminated him because of certain reason.

    2) With mutual trust, there is no contract being drawn but he signed on a payment voucher that he had collected the money.

    3) He still owes the company $5k after offsetting the compensation that the company has promised :- a) 6 months +
    b) 2 months (if pay within 3 weeks) +
    c) 1 month (upon his request)
    (Outstanding loan $31K - $26K compensation = $5k)

    4) But he is still not satisfied and want the company to reduce the loan further.

    5) Because of his greed, the company thought of withdrawing all the compensation and pay only what he is entitled to (ie 1 month 1 lieu of notice) according to labour law, (in actual fact it has already drag for more than 3 months).

    6) Then bring up the case to the court to claim against him for the car loan.

    My question is can the company bring up a case like that or like what toufu said, only suck the thumb.
    If no contract, then must suck thumb le. Payment voucher can merely suggest that the loan has no clause attached so this ex employee can take the longest time to return all the outstanding amount. Then again, there is this thing about verbal agreement but its difficult if its his word vs your word unless got 3rd party witness. So did both party verbally agree on a time frame for this guy to return the money?

    What I suggest is to just talk to the company lawyer to see how possible to pursue this case legally. Company lawyers are in a better position to advise. Also, I suggest to just talk to this ex employee again. Let him understand that the company has already been very kind to him by offering these options and the additional compensation amount. Let him understand that should he reject this remuneration package, then the company has no choice but to proceed with legal pursuits. Third option, since this guy has already sold hdb, he can go declare himself a bankrupt so no need to fulfil financial obligations. Let him choose! Then he no choice but to sell his car lor.

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    how much $ are we talking about? $5K to return to the company or?

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    A payment voucher is a record of a financial transaction between two parties. The employer probably did this for book keeping purposes and accountability of the company funds. Unlike a promissory note, the terms of the transaction in this case I assume is not specified in writing.

    This does not necessarily mean that the lender can get away scott free as it is inconceivable that a business would give money away to its employees for no reason. The employers can certainly sue. However other than legal costs, the outcome of a successful suit may not be a favourable result for the employer... ie. the employee is bankrupted as a result. Other than accusations of corporate bullying it can also become more difficult to get the money back.

    Since employer and employee are still talking and the employee may himself feel wrongly terminated or inadequately compensated, there is a cheaper alternative to suing and that is arbitration. Through the Law Society, the general public can resolve such differences via a legal dispute resolution scheme called LSAS (Law Society Arbitration Scheme).

    There are pros and cons to this and you may want to check the FAQ here http://www.lawsociety.org.sg/lsas/pd...S_(060707).pdf

    In Hokkien this is called "Tum Siong"

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    The company terminated the employee becuase of his poor performance and this employee is not happy with the termination, or it viewed by him "unfair", I believed. How long has this person worked in the company?

    It may take alot of time and efforts just to manage the case via legal route. Is it worthwhile to do so?

    The company agreed to fund for the car purchase ...why is that so, does it happen to all employees?

    Next time just dont give out loan. If needed, make sure all terms are spell out clearly in the contract, so both party cannot run away.

  17. #17
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    Thanks everybody.

    There is no time frame for him to return the loan as long as he is in the company. As agreed verbally, the company will deduct $700 from his monthly salary. Since now he is no longer in the company, then by right he should pay back all his outstanding loan.

    All along, the company has been doing this by lending money to the employees to buy cars as a kind of staff benefit (interest free). This is the 2nd time he has borrowed money to buy his car.

    So far, the company has not faced any problem of other employees who have been terminated and still cleared their loan before leaving the company. This is the 1st case.

    The reason why the company wants to terminate his service is because:
    1) He has his left leg ligament tear while playing game during his own leisure time. He was already on MC for 3 months and need a special shoe to support his injured leg.

    2) His job needs him to carry heavy objects, climbing stairs to stack up goods at higher shelves and walk alot.

    3) He does not know how to operate computer, can't speak good English, a bit of attitude problem eg sometimes rude to the customers while delivery, choose places to deliver, if far away or troublesome, either make so much noise or don't want to deliver etc.

    4) He has been with the company for more than 10 yrs and ever quarrel with his colleagues (sales side) on delivery matter.

    5) Company compensate so much to him is because he is actually the boss friend's brother-in-law and secondly since he has been working with the company for so long, treats it as a form of gratuity.

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    Since there is so much history, how about the company just write off the 5k balance?

    Sounds like he is unlikely to find another job that pays as much in the foreseeable future with his circumstances and attitude. Take it as a last act of kindness, the company is unlikely to suffer from the loss of 5k, and it can be managed if company is afraid of sending wrong message to rest of staff. Unless this is personal for someone in the management....

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    He got a job elsewhere but pay only $1k+ which he is very reluctant to work, so he insisted on coming back to the office to work despite the company several rejection. Now he knows that there is no chance of coming back to the company, maybe that's why he keeps on demanding for more and more compensation and make things difficult for the boss.

    It seems that now the company is already helping him to pay 50% of his car (if based on the current compensation) . His car cost only $47.8K at the time of purchase. Last month, the boss checked with the LTA website and it can fetch $68k, so there's no reason why he cannot pay up the difference if he sells his car. If it is going to waive off the $5k also, it becomes not fair to the rest of the staff who also have car loan with the company.

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    Agreed that company cannot just waive off the remaining $5k otherwise other employees may also come out pattern for company to waive off their outstanding amount. (This company very welfare to the employees leh) However, company boss can give from personal pocket to write that $5k cheque as a final good will gesture but dependent on whether the boss is willing to do that for his friend's brother in law or not. Since its family member problem, the boss can ask his friend to talk to family members or the ex-employee's wife about this matter. If the family members are willing to chip in to help, then the $5k may be easily solved.

    From the look of the matter, this guy is surely very unwilling to sell that car on his own accord therefore he's giving so so much problem. Until and unless its the law that demands him to do so, he'll not sell. As such, only through legal means can the company make him sell the car. However, resorting to such means would inevitably sour that relationship between the boss and his friend which may not be too wise a thing to do too. Only the boss knows if things will become sour. Also, quite rightly pointed out, going that legal path has 2 big problems. First, its gonna be long drawn. Second, may end up not getting much after the legal cost is deducted. Not advisable to do that.

    It is not surprising that this guy is unwilling to take up that $1k+ job given his age and medical condition. Its a mentality thing so going head on against it will probably not yield any amicable resolution. I agree that seeking arbitration is a viable option.

    After talking so much, 2 options remain if boss is not willing to write a $5k cheque from his personal pocket...

    1. Talk to his family members to see if they are willing to help with that $5k outstanding loan.

    2. Seek Arbitration advise.


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    Never depends on his wife. His wife brought him to the boss house 2 or 3 times to ask the boss not to terminate her husband. She told the boss that it is unfair to her husband as this is purely accident. But to a company, it is not profitable to engage somebody who can't perform his normal work properly and yet still drawing a high pay.

    In fact all the emails correspondence was handled by his wife (a lawyer's secretary) because he doesn't know how to read. I was guessing could it be his wife instigating him from behind because when the boss told him that he could only accept 3 instalments instead of 10 instalments (as per his request), he said he will have to check with his wife first and later, come back with another request, that's to reduce the car loan further. Alamat, never end leh!

    If withdraw all the compensation and sue him, seems that it is a bit mean but he is really too much, must teach him a lesson. Can the company do that?

    He told the boss that if he can give him another 1 month, at least next time when he happens to see the boss outside, he can still call him "xxxxx", if not, no more friend. He is actually making use of the friendship relationship to demand for more and more instead of employer and employee relationship.

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    Well, since things will just drag and drag if both parties remain stubborn, then I suppose the best option is to accept the 10 instalments. On the one hand, the company still gets the cash, on the other hand, the ex-employee still can make ends meet with the little he has. No need to do so much for that little bit of money lah... If you want to teach him a lesson more than getting the money back, then take legal action. If not, just accept the 10 instalments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ysyap
    Well, since things will just drag and drag if both parties remain stubborn, then I suppose the best option is to accept the 10 instalments. On the one hand, the company still gets the cash, on the other hand, the ex-employee still can make ends meet with the little he has. No need to do so much for that little bit of money lah... If you want to teach him a lesson more than getting the money back, then take legal action. If not, just accept the 10 instalments.
    Yup, let the boss decides himself. But I found that this ex-employee is simply too greedy and calculative, even a cup of coffee, he can also tell the coffee auntie to fill up to the brim. When they went for tea break, he will just sit there and wait for his colleagues to pay for the drink. When they had company's overseas trip, he told his colleague that if want to buy things, don't buy in front of the boss, if not he will think that you are very rich.

    If he has no money, why still employ a maid. His wife asks him to send the maid home, afterall their sons have already grown up but he doesn't want because he said he likes home-cooked food. I think he even had the intention of buying a condo. So from what I see, he actually has money but simply want to take advantage of this soft-hearted boss. Should the company let this type of people go "scott free"? But if take legal action, times and money might be wasted, so don't know worth it or not. Should it consider just the "luck" of the company.

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    It's totally human to behave the way that ex employee behaved. Rarely will anyone say no to having more cash. Its just this guy's character and preferred way of getting things done that is disgusting. He should not be faulted for wanting more cash or being a stingy and frugal person. Its his greed of wanting more at the unscrupulous expense of others that is the biggest problem.

    I had a similar problem. I sold a car to this guy for $32k some years back. He asked for installment (and I'm silly enough to say ok, like the company you mentioned) and after paying till $31k, he refused to pay the remaining $1k and disappeared. I have the option of taking up legal action which will most likely cost more than $1k, therefore I just let him 'escape'. Its really irritating. This is the loop hole in our system for such small sum of money. Small claim tribunal also cannot help me much then.

    The key now is how fast we want to put this behind and move on with life. If speedy resolution is preferred, then this boss should just take the 10 installments. There are simply so much more to do with life than to be caught up with this minor issue. However, as I've mentioned, if the priority is to teach this guy a lesson for his insolence of wanting to benefit at the expense of others, then do it quick.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ysyap
    It's totally human to behave the way that ex employee behaved. Rarely will anyone say no to having more cash. Its just this guy's character and preferred way of getting things done that is disgusting. He should not be faulted for wanting more cash or being a stingy and frugal person. Its his greed of wanting more at the unscrupulous expense of others that is the biggest problem.

    I had a similar problem. I sold a car to this guy for $32k some years back. He asked for installment (and I'm silly enough to say ok, like the company you mentioned) and after paying till $31k, he refused to pay the remaining $1k and disappeared. I have the option of taking up legal action which will most likely cost more than $1k, therefore I just let him 'escape'. Its really irritating. This is the loop hole in our system for such small sum of money. Small claim tribunal also cannot help me much then.

    The key now is how fast we want to put this behind and move on with life. If speedy resolution is preferred, then this boss should just take the 10 installments. There are simply so much more to do with life than to be caught up with this minor issue. However, as I've mentioned, if the priority is to teach this guy a lesson for his insolence of wanting to benefit at the expense of others, then do it quick.

    Thank you. Let the boss decide himself. He said that all this affect his mood, he took into consideration their friendship also, hope that he can solve it asap. Cheers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by irisng
    Thank you. Let the boss decide himself. He said that all this affect his mood, he took into consideration their friendship also, hope that he can solve it asap. Cheers.
    Sounded like the boss is your husband... LOL!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ysyap
    Sounded like the boss is your husband... LOL!
    No lah, how could it be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by irisng
    No lah, how could it be.
    ur father or in laws??

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    Just engage a lawyer(wife' firm) to sue the employee(the husband)

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    Quote Originally Posted by zzz1
    Just engage a lawyer(wife' firm) to sue the employee(the husband)
    Good idea. LOL!

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