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Thread: Have property, may not profit

  1. #1
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    Default Have property, may not profit

    http://www.straitstimes.com/Invest/S...ry_723810.html

    Have property, may not profit

    Making money from real estate is not a sure thing, and the returns are sometimes not worth the risk

    Published on Oct 16, 2011

    By Goh Eng Yeow, Senior Correspondent


    An old friend in the real estate business once estimated that only one in four investors here made any money out of investing in property.

    Although he had a pulse on the market for the past four decades, I thought that his estimate was absurdly low.

    Owning a home of our own is in our blood, and it would be insane for anyone to want to grab a piece of the highly prized real estate on our crowded island if it had been a money-losing proposition.

    In fact, until the Government stepped in with a host of anti-speculation measures, there were numerous stories of investors who flipped their purchases for a quick profit by selling the property they had just bought to another buyer.

    Still, looking at the many ups and downs of the private residential market over the years, I wonder if there is some truth to the observation made by my friend, far-fetched though it may seem.

    Like the stock market, the property market moves in cycles, and if you are caught at the wrong end of the cycle, it may take years before you get to see the price you paid for that dream home again.

    At a recent reunion with a group of old friends, all in their late 40s and early 50s, I observed that several of them had sold their properties in the past few months as the red-hot market was on a roll.

    Surprisingly, they then chose to downgrade to a smaller apartment or HDB flat, or kept the cash proceeds.

    As middle-aged investors, they are certainly more conservative in their investment outlook, but the roller coaster ride experienced by the local property market in the past 20 years also had a bearing on their decisions.

    Making money from the property market is not as easy as it seems.

    One friend said he had invested in a swanky Orchard Road condominium unit four years ago, only to see its price plummet soon after that with the onset of the global financial crisis. He was glad to get out, even though he had only broken even on his investment.

    Another friend remarked that on paper, it would appear that he had made a hefty gain on a condo unit he had bought for investment 15 years ago. But after deducting the interest paid on the mortgage and the sums spent over the years on repairs and maintenance, the returns worked out to a paltry 3 per cent a year.

    In hindsight, it is simply not a risk worth taking, considering the large outlay involved, he said.

    We argued that his returns would not have been so low if he had included the rentals he had collected in his calculations.

    And there lies another twist to his story: He said that unlike the current tight rental market, where landlords can pick and choose their tenants, there was a period between 2002 and 2005 when condo rentals plunged so badly that it was uneconomical for owners like himself to let out the unit.

    It is a cautionary tale about some of the potential hazards in the property market that a fresh investor may want to take note of.

    Talk to any seasoned property investor and he will tell you that the key to making money is 'location, location, location'.

    But like the equities market, investing in the property market is also about getting the timing right.

    My friend's returns on his investment were so low because he bought the condo in 1996, when prices were at a record high.

    It took 10 years before property prices regained those lofty levels - and another five before they rose to a level where he could comfortably get out without incurring a loss.

    Would my two friends have done better if they had waited? Their answer is no, given the recent turmoil that has rocked financial markets.

    At the back of their minds was a fear that the roaring bull property market might be too good to last, given the bad memories they nursed of previous market crashes.

    Some bullish property investors argue that this time, it is really different.

    They note that the 1996 rally was powered primarily by local purchases, following a relaxation in the rules on the use of one's Central Provident Fund savings to buy private properties and resale HDB flats.

    Now, however, foreigners account for a sizeable chunk of the buying interest. As such, even if local demand flags, there will be foreigners to prop up the market.

    As US investment bank Goldman Sachs noted in a recent report, foreign buying made up 31 per cent of all private residential properties in the third quarter. It also observed that Chinese buyers dominated the purchases, accounting for 28.3 per cent of the foreign buying.

    Yet, even the Goldman report found little to be exuberant about.

    While sales of new private properties stayed firm in the mass-market condo segment, it observed that the resale market was subdued, with only 2,507 caveats lodged for the July-to-August period.

    Also taking a cautionary stance was Malaysian investment bank CIMB, which noted that the unsold inventory of private properties had started to creep upwards in the past few quarters, even though it was still lower than that in 2009.

    It expressed concerns that the selling pressure might build up in the next 12 to 18 months if fears of a recession escalate.

    And with foreigners forming a significant portion of the buyers, the regional housing trend becomes important. For example, a slowdown in the red-hot Chinese property market may also have an impact here.

    For property sellers, the big relief is that the concerns raised by analysts will not be relevant any more. Their big worry is how to get a decent return on their sales proceeds in order to stay ahead of inflation.

    However, those aiming to buy a condo unit as an investment should realise that it is not a sure road to riches.

    Getting into property investment is far easier than getting out of it - especially when the global economic climate turns chillier, like now.

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  2. #2
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    1/4 is very good already, in stock market, it is probably 1 in 10, in investment linked insurance it is probably 1 in 20, in Lehman bond, it is 0
    Ride at your own risk !!!

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    just ask those who have been playing stocks in the last 10 years, how many are net positive and how many % are they up by.

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    "An old friend in the real estate business once estimated that only one in four investors here made any money out of investing in property."

    I really dun like reportors making sweeping statement in the press, this is very irresponsible. All these are hearsay statements without facts and figures to support.

    Let share some numbers :
    In 2010, there were about 900,000 units of HDB flats and 250,000 units of private properties, totally 1,150,000 units.

    Let say in the peak of 1997, all time high, properties bot then not yet in money, and let us 50,000 units done that year. This is less than 5% of the total stock.

    The reporter is talking 75% of the people invest in properties, be it for own stay which is also investment or for rental are not in money.

    All my friends having properties are in monies.

    This is like in today forum page, someone wrote about taxes on profit arising from properties. I read 3 times, and failed to understand what the writer talking about.

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    Sph takes order from khaw, what do you expect them to write? Property sure make buy buy buy lol
    Ride at your own risk !!!

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    From a percentage game perspective, which asset glass offers a "better" chance of making money. His old friend should ask those who got invested the s chips.

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    His friend is not old enough

    All my "old" friends, who bought properties in the 80s and early 90s, made huge profit. They are the ones brave enough to do it at that time, and are rewarded for it.

    And my "younger" friends, who bought the infamous Bishan 8 and duchess crest, after 12 yrs finally break even last year... (ok ok interest cost not counted, but then there was rental...)

    Almost no one had serious money trouble because of pty. The ones with serious money trouble got it from stock market.

    I'm not saying pty sure make. I'm saying in SG context, at least past experience (which this article tried to portrait) clearly indicates pty is a better asset class than others.

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    IMHO, actually not all property don't make money. It depends on the locations and the price that you bought. If you bought a condo for more than $2kpsf and with big floor area, definitely the price of the condo will be higher, then the profit margin might be lower as how much more you can increase $psf because not many average people can afford such a high price.

    When the HDB was first built in Bishan, it cost <$100K and you can see now how much it appreciates.

    I have a friend who bought a condo from his friend at about $900k at the East side and now it is going to enbloc, if more than certain percentage of the residents agree, he can get $3m. But unfortunately, some of the residents are too greedy, they want more and till now no more news.

    I have another friend who lives in suburban area, she bought a condo at around $610k about 10 yrs back and a few months back, just heard that her neighbour sold it at $1m.

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    Check with those uncles / aunties who bought in 60s and 70s, they make tidy sum of money.
    Quote Originally Posted by irisng
    IMHO, actually not all property don't make money. It depends on the locations and the price that you bought. If you bought a condo for more than $2kpsf and with big floor area, definitely the price of the condo will be higher, then the profit margin might be lower as how much more you can increase $psf because not many average people can afford such a high price.

    When the HDB was first built in Bishan, it cost <$100K and you can see now how much it appreciates.

    I have a friend who bought a condo from his friend at about $900k at the East side and now it is going to enbloc, if more than certain percentage of the residents agree, he can get $3m. But unfortunately, some of the residents are too greedy, they want more and till now no more news.

    I have another friend who lives in suburban area, she bought a condo at around $610k about 10 yrs back and a few months back, just heard that her neighbour sold it at $1m.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DC33_2008
    Check with those uncles / aunties who bought in 60s and 70s, they make tidy sum of money.
    I think timing is important but catching the right point in the cycle is not simple though

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    The recent lethman bros saga is a good example. How many bought properties during that period? People are governed by fear and emotions. People would have made at least 20% if purchase a unit then. I believe is still the gut feel which overcome the fear and form the decision.
    Quote Originally Posted by peterng8
    I think timing is important but catching the right point in the cycle is not simple though

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    heard from friend, a PR was not able to buy HDB and was forced to buy landed in the early 1980s.. at ard 200k FH. Her friend who can qualify for HDB cos she married a Singaporean now

    I would think it may not help you to make huge money for general folks but at least preserve your capital. Simply, the building, labour and land costs are getting expensive due to inflation.

    Another example, JB new launch also getting more expensive, RM300-400k (terrace) get you a small unit where you need to pay like 700k-1m (Semi D) to get a decent unit with proper security. 10 years ago, a 400k property (Semi D) consider good quality and 200k-300k consider norm (Terrace)

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    Can only think of the good old days but not practical to compare it to our current context lah...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Laguna
    "An old friend in the real estate business once estimated that only one in four investors here made any money out of investing in property."

    I really dun like reportors making sweeping statement in the press, this is very irresponsible. All these are hearsay statements without facts and figures to support.

    Let share some numbers :
    In 2010, there were about 900,000 units of HDB flats and 250,000 units of private properties, totally 1,150,000 units.

    Let say in the peak of 1997, all time high, properties bot then not yet in money, and let us 50,000 units done that year. This is less than 5% of the total stock.

    The reporter is talking 75% of the people invest in properties, be it for own stay which is also investment or for rental are not in money.

    All my friends having properties are in monies.

    This is like in today forum page, someone wrote about taxes on profit arising from properties. I read 3 times, and failed to understand what the writer talking about.
    He is asking the government to impose capital gain tax on those who sell properties that are not for own stay, deeming these as property trading...

    Probably someone who has been priced out of the pte property market wishing the price to collapse so that he could buy one...

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    What is the investment horizon? Short term, medium term, long term? The strategy for a quick flip will be totally different from a 15y horizon. This reporter is actually not bad (I read his comment on stock market previously, believe me, he is among the best, much better than some nonsense analysts). The example he cited of course is valid for a CCR medium term investor bought at the peak of 1996 and entirely appropriate to drive the national agenda of asking people to be cautious ...
    Ride at your own risk !!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ysyap
    Can only think of the good old days but not practical to compare it to our current context lah...
    Current context is I see central banks printing money like no tomorrow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kane
    Current context is I see central banks printing money like no tomorrow.
    When ppl talking abt no QE3, I was just laughing.

    Think further, how is the European countries going to recapitalise their
    banks? where r they gg to find the monies? Perhaps, I should study the ECB to understand more as well

    Look at operation twist..

    QE3 is just a name, but most important is what they are doing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Laguna
    When ppl talking abt no QE3, I was just laughing.

    Think further, how is the European countries going to recapitalise their
    banks? where r they gg to find the monies? Perhaps, I should study the ECB to understand more as well

    Look at operation twist..

    QE3 is just a name, but most important is what they are doing.
    There's no QE3. Yet that is. Now's QE2plus. Haha. The joke is they want to leverage EFSF to backstop sovereign debt like Spain and Italy. What are they going to use as collateral??

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    Quote Originally Posted by kane
    There's no QE3. Yet that is. Now's QE2plus. Haha. The joke is they want to leverage EFSF to backstop sovereign debt like Spain and Italy. What are they going to use as collateral??
    Collateral : paper, ink and printing machine.

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    Maybe the article should got typo... its 1 in 4 don't make money!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Laguna
    Collateral : paper, ink and printing machine.
    Great, I got a laser printer, when can I get my hands on some of those bailout funds?

    Seriously speaking, unless they use natural resources as collateral, I doubt they are going to get much leverage. Otherwise it's just a case of printing worthless banana notes, and the Germans will be mindful of the effects of hyperinflation.

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    There are still opportunities. You may not get 100 or 1000 folds like those bought in 60s but still can get one to two folds in 5-10 years later. It is just not so easy to find. It could be in the OCR area. QUOTE=ysyap]Can only think of the good old days but not practical to compare it to our current context lah... [/QUOTE]

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    Ball game has changed, goal posts shifted.

    The uncles, aunties who rode the market for the last 10-20years are in retirement age and will take the conservative route to keep cash.

    But seriously, property market with cooling measures in place are great to sustain and support the current prices. With immense infrastructure investments, e.g. highways, MRTs, hospitals (most exp private Parkway, KTP, Sengkang, Jurong East NTF) means government is getting ready to grow the population.

    The media is already trying to contain car growth and encourage public transport. With 100,000 millionaires in Singapore now to grow to 400,000 millionaires by 2016 means more businesses will be setup with SG as HQ.

    Like it or not, 6 million or 6.5 million population here we come.

    The next big run up could be a few years to a decade away.

    There are new changes in the technological space, i.e. Cloud and Virtualization, Mobile Content, means business operations are going to change for many industries.

    New business segments may arise from here and people who thought their careers with traditional big companies are stable will think twice or lose their jobs in a blink of an eye, when the wave of change sets in.

    "The only thing constant is change", Albert Einstein.

    In summary, get ready to improve or get ready to be left behind. And if things do improve, what would happen to prices?

    P.S: Singapore is a buffer state between the current superpower and to-be superpowers, plus many many other states. These are in terms of, politics, economics, social, geography (including location and natural disasters).

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    We have to move with the tides as a small nation. We heard many times in the last few speeches by Ex MM. Too much resistance is bad for Spore's growth and shall regret later. Given our position in both economic and physical location, we just got to move on.
    Quote Originally Posted by solsys
    Ball game has changed, goal posts shifted.

    The uncles, aunties who rode the market for the last 10-20years are in retirement age and will take the conservative route to keep cash.

    But seriously, property market with cooling measures in place are great to sustain and support the current prices. With immense infrastructure investments, e.g. highways, MRTs, hospitals (most exp private Parkway, KTP, Sengkang, Jurong East NTF) means government is getting ready to grow the population.

    The media is already trying to contain car growth and encourage public transport. With 100,000 millionaires in Singapore now to grow to 400,000 millionaires by 2016 means more businesses will be setup with SG as HQ.

    Like it or not, 6 million or 6.5 million population here we come.

    The next big run up could be a few years to a decade away.

    There are new changes in the technological space, i.e. Cloud and Virtualization, Mobile Content, means business operations are going to change for many industries.

    New business segments may arise from here and people who thought their careers with traditional big companies are stable will think twice or lose their jobs in a blink of an eye, when the wave of change sets in.

    "The only thing constant is change", Albert Einstein.

    In summary, get ready to improve or get ready to be left behind. And if things do improve, what would happen to prices?

    P.S: Singapore is a buffer state between the current superpower and to-be superpowers, plus many many other states. These are in terms of, politics, economics, social, geography (including location and natural disasters).

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    Yes, neighbours Malaysia, Indonesia more than happy to eclipse us when SG makes the slip one day and I fear the day will come if our youth gets too rebellious.

    There is a reason why foreign talents are welcome to be Singapore Citizens if they make the grade because they appreciate what Singapore stands for, security, merit system, no natural disasters with a government who works hard to stay relevant (not to mention Opposition to keep PAP in check).

    I can't imagine if SG depends on organic population growth with a strawberry generation. Look at Greece, 60% of their people work really hard (clock more hours than the whole Eurozone) and the 40% slack, riot, complain to ask for more subsidies.

    God save us if SG becomes like that one day.

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    Have observed our younger Singaporeans are having the wrong attitude and lacking in the drives. Look at the Vietnamese, Indian, Chinese in Singapore. Very worried. Like what my grandad used to say: They sow the seed, my father maintain and grow while we harvest. Our next generation just wait for the processed food on the table .
    Quote Originally Posted by solsys
    Yes, neighbours Malaysia, Indonesia more than happy to eclipse us when SG makes the slip one day and I fear the day will come if our youth gets too rebellious.

    There is a reason why foreign talents are welcome to be Singapore Citizens if they make the grade because they appreciate what Singapore stands for, security, merit system, no natural disasters with a government who works hard to stay relevant (not to mention Opposition to keep PAP in check).

    I can't imagine if SG depends on organic population growth with a strawberry generation. Look at Greece, 60% of their people work really hard (clock more hours than the whole Eurozone) and the 40% slack, riot, complain to ask for more subsidies.

    God save us if SG becomes like that one day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DC33_2008
    Have observed our younger Singaporeans are having the wrong attitude and lacking in the drives. Look at the Vietnamese, Indian, Chinese in Singapore. Very worried. Like what my grandad used to say: They sow the seed, my father maintain and grow while we harvest. Our next generation just wait for the processed food on the table .

    富不过三代。

    Good luck to those who still teach their children only English because it's one straight way to hell like the West.

    Better get your mother-tongue right, i.e. Tamil, Malay, Mandarin coz that's where the future lies.

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    One of my friend's son (was Indian national and now a SC) has done very well for "A" level who can certainly go to US on scholarship has chosen to study in India.
    Quote Originally Posted by solsys
    富不过三代。

    Good luck to those who still teach their children only English because it's one straight way to hell like the West.

    Better get your mother-tongue right, i.e. Tamil, Malay, Mandarin coz that's where the future lies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DC33_2008
    Have observed our younger Singaporeans are having the wrong attitude and lacking in the drives. Look at the Vietnamese, Indian, Chinese in Singapore. Very worried. .
    When I read this, my heart is very very heavy. In fact, if hv chance to see the PRC and Taiwaness work in HK, u will know our younger ones can't compete at all.

    I had the chance to talk to a number of young Taiwaness and PRC working in HK in IB, they are super super hungry. They can work 20 hours a day for 3 - 5 days non-stop, or even 24 hours for 2 days... 7 days week is quite a norm.

    Here, the young ones are talking about work life balance all the time. Everything they can't get is the fault of the govt. These include cannot get marry, cannot hv children, cannot buy a flat of their choice....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Laguna
    When I read this, my heart is very very heavy. In fact, if hv chance to see the PRC and Taiwaness work in HK, u will know our younger ones can't compete at all.

    I had the chance to talk to a number of young Taiwaness and PRC working in HK in IB, they are super super hungry. They can work 20 hours a day for 3 - 5 days non-stop, or even 24 hours for 2 days... 7 days week is quite a norm.

    Here, the young ones are talking about work life balance all the time. Everything they can't get is the fault of the govt. These include cannot get marry, cannot hv children, cannot buy a flat of their choice....
    I support working hard but not 20hours a day. Some bodies aren't built to absorb that degree of fatigue and you don't know what it could do to your body. Nowadays young people have hypertension and all. Not a good sign. Work smart is the best. And most importantly, exercise regularly.

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